How to recover from painful ligament or cartilage problems?

I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.

Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints
around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the
morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement
not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.



I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like
trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint movement
is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine Hydrochloride (1500mg)
plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but showing no help.



My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything
tested normal.



I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic
specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic person
suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is suppose to be
part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But he did not offer
much solution for my problem, except that I should have physical therapy
exercise.



After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts
having the same kind of pain too.

Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you so
much.

"A M Jackson" <no.spam@no.spam.com> wrote in message
news:K03Rj.3630$26.1749@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net ...
>I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.
>
> Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints
> around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the
> morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement
> not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.
>
>
>
> I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like
> trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint
> movement is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine
> Hydrochloride (1500mg) plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but
> showing no help.
>
>
>
> My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything
> tested normal.
>
>
>
> I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic
> specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic
> person suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is
> suppose to be part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But
> he did not offer much solution for my problem, except that I should have
> physical therapy exercise.
>
>
>
> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb
> starts having the same kind of pain too.
>
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you
> so much.
>

Have you been tested for gout?

Jo

A M, I have joint pain in my fingers and thumb also and I don't have
rheumatoid arthritis,. I have osteoarthritis, and you also might have it.
You need to see a rheumatologist who speciallizes in the different kinds of
arthritis and knows so much more about it than any other kind of doctor.
Please get one of your doctors to refer you to a rheumatologist and let
him/her check it out for you.
Gwen


"Jo Firey" <jofirey@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:SK3Rj.661$To6.534@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net. ..

"A M Jackson" <no.spam@no.spam.com> wrote in message
news:K03Rj.3630$26.1749@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net ...
>I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.
>
> Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints
> around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the
> morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement
> not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.
>
>
>
> I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like
> trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint
> movement is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine
> Hydrochloride (1500mg) plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but
> showing no help.
>
>
>
> My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything
> tested normal.
>
>
>
> I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic
> specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic
> person suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is
> suppose to be part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But
> he did not offer much solution for my problem, except that I should have
> physical therapy exercise.
>
>
>
> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb
> starts having the same kind of pain too.
>
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you
> so much.
>

Have you been tested for gout?

Jo

<sweetpickleNO@SPAMknology.net> wrote in message
news:e95a$4814daf2$45491df5$1432@KNOLOGY.NET...
>A M, I have joint pain in my fingers and thumb also and I don't have
> rheumatoid arthritis,. I have osteoarthritis, and you also might have it.
> You need to see a rheumatologist who speciallizes in the different kinds
> of
> arthritis and knows so much more about it than any other kind of doctor.
> Please get one of your doctors to refer you to a rheumatologist and let
> him/her check it out for you.
> Gwen
>
Thanks Gwen.
I am in Kaiser healthcare in Silicon Valley.
Does anyone here know of any good specialist for this type?

"A M Jackson" <no.spam@no.spam.com> writes:
><sweetpickleNO@SPAMknology.net> wrote...
>>A M, I have joint pain in my fingers and thumb also and I don't have
>> rheumatoid arthritis,. I have osteoarthritis, and you also might have it.
>> You need to see a rheumatologist who speciallizes in the different kinds
>> of
>> arthritis and knows so much more about it than any other kind of doctor.
>> Please get one of your doctors to refer you to a rheumatologist and let
>> him/her check it out for you.
>> Gwen
>>
>Thanks Gwen.
>I am in Kaiser healthcare in Silicon Valley.
>Does anyone here know of any good specialist for this type?
>

--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

> "Jo Firey" <jofirey@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>
>
> Have you been tested for gout?
>
> Jo
>
>
>
Jo, I have done a little research. Wiki: Gout is characterized by
excruciating, sudden, unexpected, burning pain, as well as swelling,
redness, warmness, and stiffness in the affected joint. Low-grade fever may
also be present. The patient usually suffers from two sources of pain. The
crystals inside the joint cause intense pain whenever the affected area is
moved. The inflammation of the tissues around the joint also causes the skin
to be swollen, tender and sore if it is even slightly touched. For example,
a blanket or even the lightest sheet draping over the affected area could
cause extreme pain Gout usually attacks the big toe (approximately 75
percent of first attacks); however, it also can affect other joints such as
the ankle, heel,
instep, knee, wrist, elbow, fingers, and spine. In some cases, the condition
may appear in the joints of small toes that have become immobile due to
impact injury earlier in life, causing poor blood circulation that leads to
gout.

Patients with longstanding hyperuricemia can have uric acid crystal deposits
called tophi (singular: tophus) in other tissues such as the helix of the
ear. Elevated levels of uric acid in the urine can lead to uric acid
crystals precipitating in the kidneys or bladder, forming uric acid kidney
stones.

I do not think I have gout problem. But is there simple test I can do
myself? Or, I have to ask my doctor to perform this at lab? Thank you.

"A M Jackson" <no.spam@no.spam.com> wrote in message
news:JJoRj.1012$1b7.1000@newssvr13.news.prodigy.ne t...
>> "Jo Firey" <jofirey@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>
>> Have you been tested for gout?
>>
>> Jo
>>
>>
>>
> Jo, I have done a little research. Wiki: Gout is characterized by
> excruciating, sudden, unexpected, burning pain, as well as swelling,
> redness, warmness, and stiffness in the affected joint. Low-grade fever
> may
> also be present. The patient usually suffers from two sources of pain.
> The
> crystals inside the joint cause intense pain whenever the affected area
> is
> moved. The inflammation of the tissues around the joint also causes the
> skin
> to be swollen, tender and sore if it is even slightly touched. For
> example,
> a blanket or even the lightest sheet draping over the affected area could
> cause extreme pain Gout usually attacks the big toe (approximately 75
> percent of first attacks); however, it also can affect other joints such
> as
> the ankle, heel,
> instep, knee, wrist, elbow, fingers, and spine. In some cases, the
> condition
> may appear in the joints of small toes that have become immobile due to
> impact injury earlier in life, causing poor blood circulation that leads
> to
> gout.
>
> Patients with longstanding hyperuricemia can have uric acid crystal
> deposits
> called tophi (singular: tophus) in other tissues such as the helix of the
> ear. Elevated levels of uric acid in the urine can lead to uric acid
> crystals precipitating in the kidneys or bladder, forming uric acid
> kidney
> stones.
>
> I do not think I have gout problem. But is there simple test I can do
> myself? Or, I have to ask my doctor to perform this at lab? Thank you.
>

Sorry, but if you prefer Wiki and self diagnosis to reliable medical advice
you are on your own so to speak.

Doctors can do lab tests to diagnosis high blood levels of uric acid. And
there are medications to reduce it.

I had intermittent problems with 'hot' or sausage finger and toe joints.
They haven't recurred since I've been on medication to treat the acid
levels. Which by the way were high but not off the charts. RD didn't
think they were the problem. Ortho guy said even high normal levels can
cause digits to flare.

Jo

amj

one can test sero negative, have a reasonable ed rate, and still have
any one of several forms of arthritis - including osteo, and even rheum
type 'can' be sero neg.

nothing showing on the xray is good - for now - but for anyone with
arthritis, not indicative of anything other than damage hasn't
progressed 'yet' to the point of being readable on the plate

you do not mention if you have a history of 'hard use' of hands perhaps
in heavy physical work history? any family indication of diabetes? any
fairly rapid weight gain or loss?

you describe morning stiffness, and tendon/ligament contracture - while
this is most likely a form of arthritis, the above 'could' be a
causative agent.

i wouldn't settle for a 'wait and see' from my doc - if it is arthritis,
or diabetes, the sooner addressed the better.

my hands [total involvement] respond very much as yours are - i'm a
sero neg still's disease auto immune and my blood tests don't reflect my
condition either...

all i can recc. is that you take a more active stance and insist on
further work to diagnose

A M Jackson wrote:
>
> I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.
>
> Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints
> around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the
> morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement
> not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.
>
> I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like
> trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint movement
> is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine Hydrochloride (1500mg)
> plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but showing no help.
>
> My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything
> tested normal.
>
> I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic
> specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic person
> suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is suppose to be
> part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But he did not offer
> much solution for my problem, except that I should have physical therapy
> exercise.
>
> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts
> having the same kind of pain too.
>
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you so
> much.

It seems to me I heard somewhere that A M Jackson wrote in article
<JJoRj.1012$1b7.1000@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net> :

>> "Jo Firey" <jofirey@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

>> Have you been tested for gout?
>
>Jo, I have done a little research. Wiki: Gout is characterized by
>excruciating, sudden, unexpected, burning pain, as well as swelling,
>redness, warmness, and stiffness in the affected joint. Low-grade fever may
>also be present. The patient usually suffers from two sources of pain. The
>crystals inside the joint cause intense pain whenever the affected area is
>moved. The inflammation of the tissues around the joint also causes the skin
>to be swollen, tender and sore if it is even slightly touched. For example,
>a blanket or even the lightest sheet draping over the affected area could
>cause extreme pain Gout usually attacks the big toe (approximately 75
>percent of first attacks); however, it also can affect other joints such as
>the ankle, heel,
>instep, knee, wrist, elbow, fingers, and spine. In some cases, the condition
>may appear in the joints of small toes that have become immobile due to
>impact injury earlier in life, causing poor blood circulation that leads to
>gout.
>
[. . .]

>I do not think I have gout problem. But is there simple test I can do
>myself? Or, I have to ask my doctor to perform this at lab? Thank you.

I don't recall if you've mentioned this, but do you have bumps or nodules in the
palm of your hand near the fingers that have the pain? My assumption is that
you would have mentioned it if you did, but this is just to rule out the
possibility of Dupuytren's contracture, the effects of which range from benign
to quite painful. In my case I have fairly large nodules but very little pain
(< 1 ) and no loss of hand function.

If you do have nodules, you can find more about Dupuytrens at
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dup...acture/DS00732
--
Don Kirkman

A M Jackson wrote:
>> "Jo Firey" <jofirey@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>
>> Have you been tested for gout?
>>
>> Jo
>>
>>
>>
> Jo, I have done a little research. Wiki: Gout is characterized by
> excruciating, sudden, unexpected, burning pain, as well as swelling,
> redness, warmness, and stiffness in the affected joint. Low-grade fever may
> also be present. The patient usually suffers from two sources of pain. The
> crystals inside the joint cause intense pain whenever the affected area is
> moved. The inflammation of the tissues around the joint also causes the
> skin
> to be swollen, tender and sore if it is even slightly touched. For example,
> a blanket or even the lightest sheet draping over the affected area could
> cause extreme pain Gout usually attacks the big toe (approximately 75
> percent of first attacks); however, it also can affect other joints such as
> the ankle, heel,
> instep, knee, wrist, elbow, fingers, and spine. In some cases, the
> condition
> may appear in the joints of small toes that have become immobile due to
> impact injury earlier in life, causing poor blood circulation that leads to
> gout.
>
> Patients with longstanding hyperuricemia can have uric acid crystal
> deposits
> called tophi (singular: tophus) in other tissues such as the helix of the
> ear. Elevated levels of uric acid in the urine can lead to uric acid
> crystals precipitating in the kidneys or bladder, forming uric acid kidney
> stones.
>
> I do not think I have gout problem. But is there simple test I can do
> myself? Or, I have to ask my doctor to perform this at lab? Thank you.
>
It's a blood test for uric acid - the compound that collects in the
joints and
crystallizes.

The uric acid test is used to learn whether the body might be breaking
down cells too quickly or not getting rid of uric acid quickly enough.

The test also is used to monitor levels of uric acid when a patient has
had chemotherapy or radiation treatments.

You might also want to look up pseudogout, which is similar to gout, but is
caused by calcium crystals. My RD has me on colchicine, but it is not a
fast acting med. I may have it in my wrists.

--
Navy
Take out the FISH to email me.
"A M Jackson" <no.spam@no.spam.com> wrote in message
news:JJoRj.1012$1b7.1000@newssvr13.news.prodigy.ne t...
>> "Jo Firey" <jofirey@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>>
>>
>> Have you been tested for gout?
>>
>> Jo
>>
>>
>>
> Jo, I have done a little research. Wiki: Gout is characterized by
> excruciating, sudden, unexpected, burning pain, as well as swelling,
> redness, warmness, and stiffness in the affected joint. Low-grade fever
> may
> also be present. The patient usually suffers from two sources of pain. The
> crystals inside the joint cause intense pain whenever the affected area is
> moved. The inflammation of the tissues around the joint also causes the
> skin
> to be swollen, tender and sore if it is even slightly touched. For
> example,
> a blanket or even the lightest sheet draping over the affected area could
> cause extreme pain Gout usually attacks the big toe (approximately 75
> percent of first attacks); however, it also can affect other joints such
> as
> the ankle, heel,
> instep, knee, wrist, elbow, fingers, and spine. In some cases, the
> condition
> may appear in the joints of small toes that have become immobile due to
> impact injury earlier in life, causing poor blood circulation that leads
> to
> gout.
>
> Patients with longstanding hyperuricemia can have uric acid crystal
> deposits
> called tophi (singular: tophus) in other tissues such as the helix of the
> ear. Elevated levels of uric acid in the urine can lead to uric acid
> crystals precipitating in the kidneys or bladder, forming uric acid kidney
> stones.
>
> I do not think I have gout problem. But is there simple test I can do
> myself? Or, I have to ask my doctor to perform this at lab? Thank you.
>

"Jo Firey" <jofirey@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:7dpRj.1026$1b7.27@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net. ..
>
>>>
>
> Sorry, but if you prefer Wiki and self diagnosis to reliable medical
> advice you are on your own so to speak.
>
> Doctors can do lab tests to diagnosis high blood levels of uric acid. And
> there are medications to reduce it.
>
> I had intermittent problems with 'hot' or sausage finger and toe joints.
> They haven't recurred since I've been on medication to treat the acid
> levels. Which by the way were high but not off the charts. RD didn't
> think they were the problem. Ortho guy said even high normal levels can
> cause digits to flare.
>
> Jo
>
Jo, I wish I have good healthcare providers willing to perform whatever you
wish. Kaiser primary care physicans does not provide much care, and do least
for insured. That is why I do research myself and have to sure what to ask.

I do not have any swelling, bumps, nodules on palms or large joints. I had
blood test several time and found no arthristis.

<sweetpickleNO@SPAMknology.net> wrote in message
news:e95a$4814daf2$45491df5$1432@KNOLOGY.NET...
>A M, I have joint pain in my fingers and thumb also and I don't have
> rheumatoid arthritis,. I have osteoarthritis, and you also might have it.
> You need to see a rheumatologist who speciallizes in the different kinds
> of
> arthritis and knows so much more about it than any other kind of doctor.
> Please get one of your doctors to refer you to a rheumatologist and let
> him/her check it out for you.
> Gwen
>
>

Dear Gwen, I have read up more about osteoarthritis.
Am I correct that there is no medication to treat and recover from this
problem?
Most of the medications and treatments are basically pain relief.

Afraid you're right, A M. But getting pain relief is really great! You can
also have joint replacements when it gets too bad to handle otherwise. I've
had a hip replacement, and basal joint replacement on my left hand. I would
not hesitate to get any joint replacement I needed. Many people have to
have knee replacements. When the joint is bone on bone, a replacement is
really the only way to go for relief. It is really important for you to see
a rheumatologist (RD).
Gwen


"A M Jackson" <no.spam@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:SRLRj.12510$GE1.6355@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
<sweetpickleNO@SPAMknology.net> wrote in message
news:e95a$4814daf2$45491df5$1432@KNOLOGY.NET...
>A M, I have joint pain in my fingers and thumb also and I don't have
> rheumatoid arthritis,. I have osteoarthritis, and you also might have it.
> You need to see a rheumatologist who speciallizes in the different kinds
> of
> arthritis and knows so much more about it than any other kind of doctor.
> Please get one of your doctors to refer you to a rheumatologist and let
> him/her check it out for you.
> Gwen
>
>

Dear Gwen, I have read up more about osteoarthritis.
Am I correct that there is no medication to treat and recover from this
problem?
Most of the medications and treatments are basically pain relief.

On Apr 27, 12:49*pm, "A M Jackson" <no.s...@no.spam.com>

> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts
> having the same kind of pain too.
>
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you so
> much.


Hi,,,, Usually if it is inflam.arth., it would be your middle finger
on both hands or another finger on the other hand. This has been
going on for too long. Ask your doctor for help and remind how long
you have been dealing with this. Maybe a steroid shot in the finger.
Harv

Definitely get in to see your doctor and *insist* on something being done to
treat this. My inflammatory arthritis has been affecting my thumbs in major
ways since April of 2000 - I well remember it starting up the weekend of the
Spring Arts Festival in Gainesville that year. As much as I hate pain in
other finger joints, having it hit your thumb really affects everything in
your life, though it does teach you to appreciate the evolutionary advance
the opposable thumb was! Anyway, get in to see your doc - thumbs are just
too important!

Oh, and you can test negative for RA but still have it - 1/4 to 1/3 of folks
with it never test positive. There are also many other types of inflammatory
arthritis some of which affect the ligaments, muscles and organs of the body.
My brand is psoriatic arthritis and it has affected ligaments from time to
time as well as giving me some inflammation that makes no sense to anyone! A
referral to a decent rheumatologist should get this investigated more
thoroughly.

--
Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Change everything. Love & forgive.



On Mon, 12 May 2008 9:22:55 -0400, Harv wrote
(in message
<1c8d79cf-a97c-4d21-a171-02be61d13608@8g2000hse.googlegroups.com>):

> On Apr 27, 12:49*pm, "A M Jackson" <no.s...@no.spam.com>
>
>> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts
>> having the same kind of pain too.
>>
>> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you
>> so
>> much.
>
>
> Hi,,,, Usually if it is inflam.arth., it would be your middle finger
> on both hands or another finger on the other hand. This has been
> going on for too long. Ask your doctor for help and remind how long
> you have been dealing with this. Maybe a steroid shot in the finger.
> Harv

OK, now I got a name. Its called "trigger finger".
I google and found many references.

Most medications are for pain relief.
I found only direct medicate is inject cortisone steriod shots to the area.
Can you please tell me any side effect of this?

By the way, I have taken cholesterol reducing drug (small dosage Simvastatin
40mg and Fenotidrate 40mg). Is these drug caused this side effect?
Thank you.

"A M Jackson" <no.spam@microsoft.com> writes:
>OK, now I got a name. Its called "trigger finger".
>I google and found many references.
>
>Most medications are for pain relief.
>I found only direct medicate is inject cortisone steriod shots to the area.
>Can you please tell me any side effect of this?
>
>By the way, I have taken cholesterol reducing drug (small dosage Simvastatin
>40mg and Fenotidrate 40mg). Is these drug caused this side effect?

not that i've ever heard of, but then i've never had them.

apart from the (eventual) injections, the only relief i ever found was
heat. mostly, this came from filling up a wash basin with hot water,
submerging the hands, and repeating as the water cooled. (a
conference at a usanian hotel that had a hot tub was a godsend; i
spent some time pre-breakfast in the tub, and i was set up for a good
part of the day.)

iirc, my consultant called it "claw hand", but a after a google search
i _think_ that's a different condition. but then, i maybe simply
don't understand what the pages it turns up actually mean -- the
pictures are more-or-less the same.

all the pictures i've found so far show only a single finger stuck: i
usually had all four mia. (i was single at the time: dressing myself
could be difficult...)
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

On Apr 27, 10:49*am, "A M Jackson" <no.s...@no.spam.com> wrote:my left
middle fingers middle and bottom joints around the knuckle areas, <<

http://www.toomuchiron.ca/disorder/faqs.php

"Aching joints, especially in the knuckle and first joint of the first
and second fingers"


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk



> I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.
>
> Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints
> around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the
> morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement
> not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.
>
> I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like
> trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint movement
> is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine Hydrochloride (1500mg)
> plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but showing no help.
>
> My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything
> tested normal.
>
> I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic
> specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic person
> suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is suppose to be
> part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But he did not offer
> much solution for my problem, except that I should have physical therapy
> exercise.
>
> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts
> having the same kind of pain too.
>
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you so
> much.

snake oil <ironjustice@cashette.com> writes:
>On Apr 27, 10:49=A0am, "A M Jackson" <no.s...@no.spam.com> wrote:my left
>middle fingers middle and bottom joints around the knuckle areas, <<
>
>http://www.toomuchiron.ca/disorder/faqs.php
>
>"Aching joints, especially in the knuckle and first joint of the first
>and second fingers"
>
>
>Who loves ya.

plainly not the snake oil merchants.
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

On May 26, 2:27*am, r...@cl.cam.ac.uk (Robin Fairbairns) wrotelainly
not the snake oil merchants.Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge <<

You have something you want to say about the Canadian Hemochromatosis
Society .. do ya .. limey .

Do ya .. ?
Which may well explain the problem they have found in those with
Juvenile
Rheumatoid Arthritis .. INCREASED destruction by introduction of
iron ..


EXPERIMENTAL BIOLOGY UPDATE: Arthritic kids' iron supplements may
hasten joint
deterioration


By Diana Swift


WWASHINGTON, D.C. - The iron supplements that many arthritic children
take to
combat concomitant anemia may be hastening the deterioration of their
joints,
Houston researchers say.


Led by biologist Roman Shypailo of the Children's Nutrition Research
Centre at
Baylor College of Medicine, a Texas team looked at eight children
being treated
for juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. The patients, aged five to 15
years,
received an intravenous radioactive tracer dose of iron (0.03
microsievert).
Iron activity in affected joints was monitored on a position/energy-
sensitive
gamma counter, while a second machine monitored whole-body iron
retention. Iron
deposition was measured two hours post-infusion and again at days
seven, 14, 28
and 56.


Anemic
"We found that iron excessively accumulates in arthritic joints and
probably
contributes to the chronic damage," said Shypailo. "That puts you
between a
rock and a hard place because many of these arthritic kids are anemic
and need
iron supplements, which may worsen the disease."


The study found a high level of agreement between the joint data and
the
whole-body data, with a greater than 90% retention rate of the infused
iron
both in joints and systemically. Furthermore, six of eight patients
showed
increased uptake at the affected joints: 165% over the first 30 days
compared
with initial uptake at two hours.


The next step, he says, is to see if there is excessive deposition of
dietary
iron in arthritic joints.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
There are many bits of information required in order to make a case
against a 'suspect' ..

When one suspects .. something .. one gathers .. 'evidence' ..


Evidence against iron in the pathogenesis of arthritis ..


1] Markers .. diagnostic of iron overload .. IN .. those with
arthritis
.. have been found to me of NO use in those with arthritis ..
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.s...g/7a943fccf825...
IE: 50% of patients manifest liver problems .. and the COMMON
diagnostic marker used to detect liver iron load has been found to be
of **no use** in those with arthritis.


2] Drugs used to treat arthritis commonly are iron binding / iron
targeting .. drugs ..


IE: aspirin,indomethacin,sulfasalazine,


3] Reduction of iron is recommended in the treatment of gout ..


4] Oxidative stress has been shown to be elevated in those with
arthritis and iron reduction is shown to alleviate oxidative stress.


5] Iron restricted diet has been shown to alleviate symptoms of
arthritis.


6] Introduction of iron rich blood into the joint induces / causes
arthritis


7] Introduction of iron into the joint induces / causes arthritis


8] Those with diagnosed iron overload have a very high incidence of
arthritis


9] Iron levels have recently been recommended to be tested in ALL
those
who manifest unexplained joint pain ..


10] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently **killing** millions
of people by not being **able** to diagnose iron levels in the body.


IE: malaria patients treated with iron and folic acid


11] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently killing Aids
patients
by giving them iron.


12] The fact they have only recently found all diabetics to have free
floating unbound iron in their bodies when they had argued there was
no
iron at all.


13} Iron accumulates excessively in joints in those with arthritis.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk






> *snake oil <ironjust...@cashette.com> writes:
>
> >On Apr 27, 10:49=A0am, "A M Jackson" <no.s...@no.spam.com> wrote:my left
> >middle fingers middle and bottom joints around the knuckle areas, <<
>
> >http://www.toomuchiron.ca/disorder/faqs.php
>
> >"Aching joints, especially in the knuckle and first joint of the first
> >and second fingers"
>
> >Who loves ya.
>
> plainly not the snake oil merchants.
> --
> Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

On Apr 27, 10:49*am, "A M Jackson" <no.s...@no.spam.com> wrote:any
suggestions <<

"The uptake and storage of iron and its potential relation to
imflammation
of the joints has been unknown until now"

"A high iron content has been noted in synovial membraines in RA"

Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases 2002;61:741-744


Iron deposits may damage joint tissue in RA


Our understanding of the role of iron in rheumatoid arthritis (RA)
has
improved with a recent study showing where iron accumulates in the
synovial
membranes of affected joints.
The researchers speculate how iron might build up to toxic amounts.
Ferritin, both light and heavy subunits , was found in the lining
layer and subintimal zone of the synovium and in synovial macrophages
and
fibroblasts.
Transferrin receptor appeared only in the lining layer .
Non-specific resistance associated macrophage proteins (Nramp) were
also found
These are proteins that span membranes and transport divalent
cations.
Nramp 2 occurred in the macrophages and fibroblasts.
Nramp 1 was present in macrophages and neutrophils, in the synovial
lining layer and the subintimal zone, and in infiltrating inflammatory
cells, but not in fibroblasts.
The study used synovial membranes from arthroplasties of 20 patients
with RA.
Thin sections were stained cytochemically for ferritin, transferrin
receptor , and Nramp 1 with monoclonal or polyclonal antibodies.
Macrophages and fibroblasts were isolated from collaginase digests of
synovial
membranes.
Neutrophils were isolated from synovial fluid aspirated routinely
from
the joints .
These cell types were stained for ferritin and transferrin receptor
immunocytochemically.
Nramp 1 and Nramp 2 were identified by reverse transcriptase
polymerase chain reaction.
A high iron content has been noted in synovial membraines in RA , but
the uptake and storage of iron and its potential relation to
imflammation
of the joints has been unknown until now.
---------------------------------------------------


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk





> I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.
>
> Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints
> around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the
> morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement
> not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.
>
> I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like
> trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint movement
> is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine Hydrochloride (1500mg)
> plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but showing no help.
>
> My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything
> tested normal.
>
> I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic
> specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic person
> suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is suppose to be
> part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But he did not offer
> much solution for my problem, except that I should have physical therapy
> exercise.
>
> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts
> having the same kind of pain too.
>
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you so
> much.

>
>2] Drugs used to treat arthritis commonly are iron binding / iron
>targeting .. drugs ..
>
>
>IE: aspirin,indomethacin,sulfasalazine,
>
>
>3] Reduction of iron is recommended in the treatment of gout ..
>
>
>4] Oxidative stress has been shown to be elevated in those with
>arthritis and iron reduction is shown to alleviate oxidative stress.
>
>
>5] Iron restricted diet has been shown to alleviate symptoms of
>arthritis.
>
>
>6] Introduction of iron rich blood into the joint induces / causes
>arthritis
>
>
>7] Introduction of iron into the joint induces / causes arthritis
>
>
>8] Those with diagnosed iron overload have a very high incidence of
>arthritis
>
>
>9] Iron levels have recently been recommended to be tested in ALL
>those
>who manifest unexplained joint pain ..
>
>
>10] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently **killing** millions
>of people by not being **able** to diagnose iron levels in the body.
>
>
>IE: malaria patients treated with iron and folic acid
>
>
>11] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently killing Aids
>patients
>by giving them iron.
>
>
>12] The fact they have only recently found all diabetics to have free
>floating unbound iron in their bodies when they had argued there was
>no
>iron at all.
>
>
>13} Iron accumulates excessively in joints in those with arthritis.
>Tom
>

Well there we have it!, we're all in need of some Castrol as we're all
going rusty;!.....

--
Tony Sayer

Tony,,, you do not have to repeat all of what has been said. In other
words, you do not have to repeeeet the crap.
Harv

"tony sayer" <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xhhvWvBHVvOIFw$Z@bancom.co.uk...
> >
>>2] Drugs used to treat arthritis commonly are iron binding / iron
>>targeting .. drugs ..
>>
>>
>>IE: aspirin,indomethacin,sulfasalazine,
>>
>>
>>3] Reduction of iron is recommended in the treatment of gout ..
>>
>>
>>4] Oxidative stress has been shown to be elevated in those with
>>arthritis and iron reduction is shown to alleviate oxidative stress.
>>
>>
>>5] Iron restricted diet has been shown to alleviate symptoms of
>>arthritis.
>>
>>
>>6] Introduction of iron rich blood into the joint induces / causes
>>arthritis
>>
>>
>>7] Introduction of iron into the joint induces / causes arthritis
>>
>>
>>8] Those with diagnosed iron overload have a very high incidence of
>>arthritis
>>
>>
>>9] Iron levels have recently been recommended to be tested in ALL
>>those
>>who manifest unexplained joint pain ..
>>
>>
>>10] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently **killing** millions
>>of people by not being **able** to diagnose iron levels in the body.
>>
>>
>>IE: malaria patients treated with iron and folic acid
>>
>>
>>11] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently killing Aids
>>patients
>>by giving them iron.
>>
>>
>>12] The fact they have only recently found all diabetics to have free
>>floating unbound iron in their bodies when they had argued there was
>>no
>>iron at all.
>>
>>
>>13} Iron accumulates excessively in joints in those with arthritis.
>>Tom
>>
>
> Well there we have it!, we're all in need of some Castrol as we're all
> going rusty;!.....
>
> --
> Tony Sayer
>
>

In article <toJ_j.853$iM3.120@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>, Harvey R. Stone
<hrstone@swbell.net> scribeth thus
>Tony,,, you do not have to repeat all of what has been said. In other
>words, you do not have to repeeeet the crap.
>Harv

Well most of it was snipped..

However it might not be crap this is often the case in science

And how many get worse symptoms when its damp;?..

I like this "rust" theory;!..
--
Tony Sayer

tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> writes:
>In article <toJ_j.853$iM3.120@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>, Harvey R. Stone
><hrstone@swbell.net> scribeth thus
>>Tony,,, you do not have to repeat all of what has been said. In other
>>words, you do not have to repeeeet the crap.
>
>Well most of it was snipped..
>
>However it might not be crap this is often the case in science

if he were to show us double-blind, peer-reviewed studies that
suggests his iron postulate has legs, i'll be interested. most
snake-oil people don't do that sort of thing, and rely on "studies"
which report how many people say they feel "better" after something or
other. since that sort of result can come from the placebo effect,
such studies are useless as scientific evidence. it's good to know if
a problem can be affected by a placebo, but to claim that a medication
is worth spending money on when it's no more use than placebo, is
plain misleading.

>And how many get worse symptoms when its damp;?..
>
>I like this "rust" theory;!..

i've noticed the damp effect. i've also seen reports that the effect
is related to atmospheric pressure (low pressure, which tends to
signal rain in this country, causes problems). i've never seen a
detailed study of either claim.

however, the suggestion that excess iron in the body would "rust" is
plain silly. one of the real problems with treating anaemia is
persuading the body to take up the iron in the drugs offered; this is
because, to make it soluble at all, the iron has to be in a compound
form, and for it to be taken up it has to be chelated into an organic
compound in the body. in neither case is the iron available to
"rust".

in any case, if iron is such a devil, why doesn't popeye, who subsists
on an iron-rich vegetable, a martyr to arthritis?

note 1: that last sentence wasn't intended to be on the same level as
the rest.

note 2: i haven't studied chemistry since the 1960s: i gave it up to
become a mathematician. so it's probably easy to pick holes in my
chemistry, but the basic principles are as likely as not "sound".
--
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

"Robin Fairbairns" <rf10@cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:g1go8o$jjs$2@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> writes:
>>In article <toJ_j.853$iM3.120@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>, Harvey R. Stone
>><hrstone@swbell.net> scribeth thus
>>>Tony,,, you do not have to repeat all of what has been said. In other
>>>words, you do not have to repeeeet the crap.
>>
>>Well most of it was snipped..
>>
>>However it might not be crap this is often the case in science
>
> if he were to show us double-blind, peer-reviewed studies that
> suggests his iron postulate has legs, i'll be interested. most
> snake-oil people don't do that sort of thing, and rely on "studies"
> which report how many people say they feel "better" after something or
> other. since that sort of result can come from the placebo effect,
> such studies are useless as scientific evidence. it's good to know if
> a problem can be affected by a placebo, but to claim that a medication
> is worth spending money on when it's no more use than placebo, is
> plain misleading.
>
>>And how many get worse symptoms when its damp;?..
>>
>>I like this "rust" theory;!..
>
> i've noticed the damp effect. i've also seen reports that the effect
> is related to atmospheric pressure (low pressure, which tends to
> signal rain in this country, causes problems). i've never seen a
> detailed study of either claim.

The changing high and low pressure causes some of us to feel pain in some of
our joints. I went to a RD many years ago that had an office in a
building in the medical center of Houston. That building has a lightning
fast elevator if no one else was calling on the floors between and the
doctors office. When it stopped,,, my ears would pop and both knees would
go """ throbbb"""". People in the elevator would always look at me because
I could not help groaning before I stepped out of it. :-) my kind of
prooofff that pressure change does cause pain.
Harv


>
> however, the suggestion that excess iron in the body would "rust" is
> plain silly. one of the real problems with treating anaemia is
> persuading the body to take up the iron in the drugs offered; this is
> because, to make it soluble at all, the iron has to be in a compound
> form, and for it to be taken up it has to be chelated into an organic
> compound in the body. in neither case is the iron available to
> "rust".
>
> in any case, if iron is such a devil, why doesn't popeye, who subsists
> on an iron-rich vegetable, a martyr to arthritis?
>
> note 1: that last sentence wasn't intended to be on the same level as
> the rest.
>
> note 2: i haven't studied chemistry since the 1960s: i gave it up to
> become a mathematician. so it's probably easy to pick holes in my
> chemistry, but the basic principles are as likely as not "sound".
> --
> Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

On Tue, 27 May 2008 07:24:03 -0500, "Harvey R. Stone"
<hrstone@swbell.net> wrote:

>The changing high and low pressure causes some of us to feel pain in some of
>our joints. I went to a RD many years ago that had an office in a
>building in the medical center of Houston. That building has a lightning
>fast elevator if no one else was calling on the floors between and the
>doctors office. When it stopped,,, my ears would pop and both knees would
>go """ throbbb"""". People in the elevator would always look at me because
>I could not help groaning before I stepped out of it. :-) my kind of
>prooofff that pressure change does cause pain.
>Harv

I'm with you on that one, Harv. I have actually kept records of
wet and dry days and my level of pain. No connection, but when
the barometer takes a sudden rise or fall I react. Who knows?

Joan

Robin Fairbairns wrote:

>
> i've noticed the damp effect. i've also seen reports that the effect
> is related to atmospheric pressure (low pressure, which tends to
> signal rain in this country, causes problems). i've never seen a
> detailed study of either claim.

starting from the premise that with over 100 forms of arthritis, each
will have it's own distinct response to such influences - there have
been numerous studies over the past 10 years that are properly run, and
show the connection [disclosure, i was in one of 'em]:


"Further support for an effect on atmospheric pressure in arthritis was
published in the Proceedings of the Western Pharmacology Society in
2004. In this prospective, double blind study, 92 patients with
osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis were compared to a control group
of 42 subjects. The authors concluded that the osteoarthritis patients
experienced increased joint pain with a low atmospheric pressure while
low temperature increased the risk of joint pain in the rheumatoid
group. Another study published in the Journal of Rheumatology in 2004
demonstrated that