Ping Harvey (pit bulls)

Hi Harv. Having computer problems, had just about finished answering your
post, then the server "ate" it and I can't find it. So, I've changed the
name of the thread and will try once more.

I read the link you submitted on pit bulls because we'd had a brief
discussion recently about that breed and specifically the nature of its
"attack" instinct. I don't doubt at all that attacks like these happen, and
honestly, I would NOT myself pick this breed for a pet. However, just this
week, a black lab in our neighborhood attacked and bit a neighbor child. He
was chained in his front yard. I also know Caesar Milan (The Dog Whisperer)
has a couple pit bulls in his pack of dogs that he uses to train other dogs
with problems. My granddaughter (whose family has the pit bull I referred
to) bought a book titled "Pitts" and one of the traits mentioned in that
book is that they are good with children and very protective. Go figure.

This is a personal issue, depending on one's own experience. I love my
daughter's pit bull and she is totally lovable to everyone he comes in
contact with. However, he is also a good watch dog, and his bark alone
would intimidate anyone even thinking about going into my daughter's house.

I just am not convinced either way right now, Harv. There are other breeds
of dogs who have been overly aggressive and attacked humans. I wish someone
else would write in and respond if they own a pit bull. It would help to
hear other stories and experiences with having this breed as pets. Nanny

Well said on both sides and people will make up their own mind on what is
safe for them to do about pets.
Harv

"nanny" <gloria006@woh.rr.com> wrote in message
news:485db039$0$3369$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Hi Harv. Having computer problems, had just about finished answering your
> post, then the server "ate" it and I can't find it. So, I've changed the
> name of the thread and will try once more.
>
> I read the link you submitted on pit bulls because we'd had a brief
> discussion recently about that breed and specifically the nature of its
> "attack" instinct. I don't doubt at all that attacks like these happen,
> and honestly, I would NOT myself pick this breed for a pet. However, just
> this week, a black lab in our neighborhood attacked and bit a neighbor
> child. He was chained in his front yard. I also know Caesar Milan (The
> Dog Whisperer) has a couple pit bulls in his pack of dogs that he uses to
> train other dogs with problems. My granddaughter (whose family has the
> pit bull I referred to) bought a book titled "Pitts" and one of the traits
> mentioned in that book is that they are good with children and very
> protective. Go figure.
>
> This is a personal issue, depending on one's own experience. I love my
> daughter's pit bull and she is totally lovable to everyone he comes in
> contact with. However, he is also a good watch dog, and his bark alone
> would intimidate anyone even thinking about going into my daughter's
> house.
>
> I just am not convinced either way right now, Harv. There are other
> breeds of dogs who have been overly aggressive and attacked humans. I
> wish someone else would write in and respond if they own a pit bull. It
> would help to hear other stories and experiences with having this breed as
> pets. Nanny
>

I have to put in my 5¢ worth here.

As some of you may or may not know, I have owned and trained Dobermans
for 34 years now, as well as my Australian Shepherd and Rough Collie. I
also have taught obedience and rally class with my local obedience club
for about 20 years, on and off each session. I have met some really
sweet Pitts, but the owners are responsible and caring, hence the
obedience classes.

We have had all breeds in class, some purebred, some not. A lot of it
boils down to the owner/handler's experience or lack of, plus what they
really want in a dog. The majority of us want a dependable, trustworthy
and loving companions. Some people want "nasty", usually as a macho
thing. Pitts, as well as all breeds have the potential for aggression,
some more than others. I always suggest to people looking for a pet to
check out the AKC breed book from the library and do research on the
many breeds and what they were originally intended to do. This is real
important. If more people did this and didn't go for "how cute", plus
spay / neuter, there would be less dog attacks and so many less unwanted
animals in the local shelters.

That said, no breed should be given total trust with a small child.
They are canines, small children have no standing in the family pack and
can be seen as siblings in the dog's mind. Regardless of breed, you
should always supervise dogs with young children to be on the safe
side. Too many dogs are given human status in some homes, they need to
be loved and respected as dogs first and foremost.

Off my soapbox now........

Spay / Neuter.

Lyn

Righto, Harv. Nanny
"Harvey R. Stone" <hrstone@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:n1s7k.13924$Ri.11109@flpi146.ffdc.sbc.com...
> Well said on both sides and people will make up their own mind on what is
> safe for them to do about pets.
> Harv
>
> "nanny" <gloria006@woh.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:485db039$0$3369$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>> Hi Harv. Having computer problems, had just about finished answering
>> your post, then the server "ate" it and I can't find it. So, I've
>> changed the name of the thread and will try once more.
>>
>> I read the link you submitted on pit bulls because we'd had a brief
>> discussion recently about that breed and specifically the nature of its
>> "attack" instinct. I don't doubt at all that attacks like these happen,
>> and honestly, I would NOT myself pick this breed for a pet. However,
>> just this week, a black lab in our neighborhood attacked and bit a
>> neighbor child. He was chained in his front yard. I also know Caesar
>> Milan (The Dog Whisperer) has a couple pit bulls in his pack of dogs that
>> he uses to train other dogs with problems. My granddaughter (whose
>> family has the pit bull I referred to) bought a book titled "Pitts" and
>> one of the traits mentioned in that book is that they are good with
>> children and very protective. Go figure.
>>
>> This is a personal issue, depending on one's own experience. I love my
>> daughter's pit bull and she is totally lovable to everyone he comes in
>> contact with. However, he is also a good watch dog, and his bark alone
>> would intimidate anyone even thinking about going into my daughter's
>> house.
>>
>> I just am not convinced either way right now, Harv. There are other
>> breeds of dogs who have been overly aggressive and attacked humans. I
>> wish someone else would write in and respond if they own a pit bull. It
>> would help to hear other stories and experiences with having this breed
>> as pets. Nanny
>>
>
>

"Lyn" <aussielyn@dakotacom.net> wrote in message
news:euGdneMgW4IJHsPVnZ2dnUVZ_hjinZ2d@posted.dakot acomip...
>I have to put in my 5¢ worth here.
> As some of you may or may not know, I have owned and trained
> Dobermans for 34 years now, as well as my Australian Shepherd and
> Rough Collie. I also have taught obedience and rally class with my
> local obedience club for about 20 years, on and off each session. I
> have met some really sweet Pitts, but the owners are responsible and
> caring, hence the obedience classes.
>
> We have had all breeds in class, some purebred, some not. A lot of
> it boils down to the owner/handler's experience or lack of, plus
> what they really want in a dog. The majority of us want a
> dependable, trustworthy and loving companions. Some people want
> "nasty", usually as a macho thing. Pitts, as well as all breeds
> have the potential for aggression, some more than others. I always
> suggest to people looking for a pet to check out the AKC breed book
> from the library and do research on the many breeds and what they
> were originally intended to do. This is real important. If more
> people did this and didn't go for "how cute", plus spay / neuter,
> there would be less dog attacks and so many less unwanted animals in
> the local shelters.
>
> That said, no breed should be given total trust with a small child.
> They are canines, small children have no standing in the family pack
> and can be seen as siblings in the dog's mind. Regardless of breed,
> you should always supervise dogs with young children to be on the
> safe side. Too many dogs are given human status in some homes,
> they need to be loved and respected as dogs first and foremost.
>
> Off my soapbox now........
>
> Spay / Neuter.
>
> Lyn

Well said.

My Border Collie reminds me daily that she was bred for a hundred
years to be the dog she is. I have to work with that, not just with a
dog.

Pitts are the same. You don't want to leave their behavior up to
them, or you might not like the results.

Now we have to go herd some basketballs, a couple of cats and maybe a
couple of Chihuahua's if they are willing.

I'm starting to think the most important rule is 'a tired dog is a
well behaved dog'. And for lessons, 'a hungry dog pays attention.

Jo

Lyn, what a GREAT reply- thank you. I have always believed that ANY dog is
capable of injuring or killing a human. With their superior speed and jaw
strength and instincts it's really not much of a contest. Yet they are
willing to be shaped into what we want and need from them- companions,
guards, etc. You must always be aware of them and what they are doing- and
be responsible for keeping them healthy, socialized and trained, contained
in your yard or home and be responsible for their actions. Dogs are dogs-
they are not and never will be human.

That said I have four precious well-loved lap dogs- ranging from 65 to 100
lbs. They are loving, gentle lap dogs because that's what I want from them
and that's what I trained them to be. Note that- I *trained* them. That's
the key in dog ownership.

Leslie

"Lyn" <aussielyn@dakotacom.net> wrote in message
news:euGdneMgW4IJHsPVnZ2dnUVZ_hjinZ2d@posted.dakot acomip...
>I have to put in my 5¢ worth here.
> As some of you may or may not know, I have owned and trained Dobermans for
> 34 years now, as well as my Australian Shepherd and Rough Collie. I also
> have taught obedience and rally class with my local obedience club for
> about 20 years, on and off each session. I have met some really sweet
> Pitts, but the owners are responsible and caring, hence the obedience
> classes.
>
> We have had all breeds in class, some purebred, some not. A lot of it
> boils down to the owner/handler's experience or lack of, plus what they
> really want in a dog. The majority of us want a dependable, trustworthy
> and loving companions. Some people want "nasty", usually as a macho
> thing. Pitts, as well as all breeds have the potential for aggression,
> some more than others. I always suggest to people looking for a pet to
> check out the AKC breed book from the library and do research on the many
> breeds and what they were originally intended to do. This is real
> important. If more people did this and didn't go for "how cute", plus
> spay / neuter, there would be less dog attacks and so many less unwanted
> animals in the local shelters.
>
> That said, no breed should be given total trust with a small child. They
> are canines, small children have no standing in the family pack and can be
> seen as siblings in the dog's mind. Regardless of breed, you should
> always supervise dogs with young children to be on the safe side. Too
> many dogs are given human status in some homes, they need to be loved and
> respected as dogs first and foremost.
>
> Off my soapbox now........
>
> Spay / Neuter.
>
> Lyn

"Leslie & The Furbabies in MO." <quilteacher@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6c7tn6F3ep7v6U1@mid.individual.net...
> Lyn, what a GREAT reply- thank you. I have always believed that ANY dog
> is capable of injuring or killing a human. With their superior speed and
> jaw strength and instincts it's really not much of a contest. Yet they
> are willing to be shaped into what we want and need from them- companions,
> guards, etc.

Okkkk, but if a dog has been for a hundred years to fight in a pit,,,, can a
person not respect that???? If for thousands of years a dog has been
hunted as food as in China,,,,, as in Chow,,, shouldn't a person respect
that.
You can tell me all you want of how cute or lovable a pitbull pup can be but
I have to fall back on what they are and have been.... I have seen the proof
too many times....




You must always be aware of them and what they are doing- and
> be responsible for keeping them healthy, socialized and trained, contained
> in your yard or home and be responsible for their actions. Dogs are dogs-
> they are not and never will be human.

But we have to consider what they have been over a thousand years IN WHAT
THEY might do or BECOME.
>
> That said I have four precious well-loved lap dogs- ranging from 65 to 100
> lbs. They are loving, gentle lap dogs because that's what I want from
> them and that's what I trained them to be. Note that- I *trained* them.
> That's the key in dog ownership.
>
> Leslie

You are saying your training is stronger than has taken place over
generations and I am saying that I do not believe you and have seen the
proof of what is taking place.
Harv

Okay- I absolutely agree that some dog breeds are just 'basically' more
'likely' to be better family dogs- and some are not. Mine are all rescues-
a Golden Retriever, a Golden/Chow, a German Shepherd/Basenji and a Great
Pyrenees/Old English Sheepdog. I probably had a head start by working with
dog breeds who 'tend' to be better pets- more gentle, more easily trained,
more social, etc. I also had a young Golden Retriever cross who had to be
euthanized due to extreme aggression. I consulted many professional dog
trainers- including 'famous' ones on the internet by email and phone- saw
four different veterinarians, read innumerable training books, and picked
the brains of everyone I could think of to talk to about her. We even tried
her on Prozac with an rx from a vet. And that's after a loving upbringing,
obedience classes (with her wearing a muzzle) and socialization and
everything I could think of or that was suggested to me. Nothing worked.
So I will acknowledge there are dogs of all breeds that will never be
trustworthy- and some breeds even more so. I am firmly against breeding
dogs for aggression for any reason. My point was that ALL dogs need to be
respected for what they are and their capabilities and ALL dogs need to be
properly socialized from puppyhood, surgically altered, receive regular
medical check-ups and care and trained to be reliable with basic commands.
And then contained, controlled and watched to be sure they and everyone else
is safe. Owning a dog is a HUGE responsibility and should not be taken
lightly. And it's darn expensive if you do it right!

Leslie

"Harvey R. Stone" <hrstone@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:mmA7k.16583$co7.16527@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> "Leslie & The Furbabies in MO." <quilteacher@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:6c7tn6F3ep7v6U1@mid.individual.net...
>> Lyn, what a GREAT reply- thank you. I have always believed that ANY dog
>> is capable of injuring or killing a human. With their superior speed and
>> jaw strength and instincts it's really not much of a contest. Yet they
>> are willing to be shaped into what we want and need from them-
>> companions, guards, etc.
>
> Okkkk, but if a dog has been for a hundred years to fight in a pit,,,, can
> a person not respect that???? If for thousands of years a dog has been
> hunted as food as in China,,,,, as in Chow,,, shouldn't a person respect
> that.
> You can tell me all you want of how cute or lovable a pitbull pup can be
> but I have to fall back on what they are and have been.... I have seen the
> proof too many times....
>
>
>
>
> You must always be aware of them and what they are doing- and
>> be responsible for keeping them healthy, socialized and trained,
>> contained in your yard or home and be responsible for their actions.
>> Dogs are dogs- they are not and never will be human.
>
> But we have to consider what they have been over a thousand years IN WHAT
> THEY might do or BECOME.
>>
>> That said I have four precious well-loved lap dogs- ranging from 65 to
>> 100 lbs. They are loving, gentle lap dogs because that's what I want
>> from them and that's what I trained them to be. Note that- I *trained*
>> them. That's the key in dog ownership.
>>
>> Leslie
>
> You are saying your training is stronger than has taken place over
> generations and I am saying that I do not believe you and have seen the
> proof of what is taking place.
> Harv
>
>

That is true Harvey, that is why a breed must be researched before
purchased. History is always in the background.

Ignorance is not bliss with a dog.

Lyn

Harvey R. Stone wrote:

>Okkkk, but if a dog has been for a hundred years to fight in a pit,,,, can a
>person not respect that???? If for thousands of years a dog has been
>hunted as food as in China,,,,, as in Chow,,, shouldn't a person respect
>that.
>You can tell me all you want of how cute or lovable a pitbull pup can be but
>I have to fall back on what they are and have been.... I have seen the proof
>too many times....
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks, Lyn for your input - it's always good to hear from someone with lots
of experience. And it always makes me nuts when people don't take proper
responsibility for their pets. I won't get started on some of my neighbors
right now, but our CAT obeys better than their DOGS do!

And you'd approve of a friend of ours who insists on fixing all of their barn
cats - she's not adding to the unwanted cat population.

--
Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Change everything. Love & forgive.

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 15:03:53 -0400, Jofirey wrote
(in message <7px7k.10911$uE5.7566@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com>):

> My Border Collie reminds me daily that she was bred for a hundred
> years to be the dog she is. I have to work with that, not just with a
> dog.
............snip
> Now we have to go herd some basketballs, a couple of cats and maybe a
> couple of Chihuahua's if they are willing.

we were cross-state Friday night and i caught an episode of the Dog Whisperer
on the motel TV. (We don't get the hecesary channels ourselves.) He was
working with some kind of cattle dog. Poor thing wouldn't walk on the leash
AT ALL, until he started trying to herd the camera vehicle.......

--
Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Change everything. Love & forgive.

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:56:15 -0400, Leslie & The Furbabies in MO. wrote
(in message <6c875uF3fd3fgU1@mid.individual.net>):

> Okay- I absolutely agree that some dog breeds are just 'basically' more
> 'likely' to be better family dogs- and some are not. Mine are all rescues-
> a Golden Retriever, a Golden/Chow,

A Golden/Chow mix? Sounds like a beautiful dog to me!
--
Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Change everything. Love & forgive.

Actually, Nann, he's a bit silly looking! He has tall legs and a slightly
blocky build with a broad chest, a short-ish coat like a Lab- which is a
Golden Retriever orange in color. He has a *very* pointy, broad head, and a
short wide muzzle like a Chow plus the Chow's black tongue! But he has a
heart of gold, smart as a whip and is utterly devoted to me. He's PERFECT!

Leslie

"Nann Bell" <hanbellGOGATORS@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C4852FC100F1D0F4F0284550@news.east.ear thlink.net...
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:56:15 -0400, Leslie & The Furbabies in MO. wrote
> (in message <6c875uF3fd3fgU1@mid.individual.net>):
>
>> Okay- I absolutely agree that some dog breeds are just 'basically' more
>> 'likely' to be better family dogs- and some are not. Mine are all
>> rescues-
>> a Golden Retriever, a Golden/Chow,
>
> A Golden/Chow mix? Sounds like a beautiful dog to me!
> --
> Nann
> remove the Gator cheer to email me
> Change everything. Love & forgive.
>
>

"Nann Bell" <hanbellGOGATORS@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C4852FC000F1D0C7F0284550@news.east.ear thlink.net...
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 15:03:53 -0400, Jofirey wrote
> (in message <7px7k.10911$uE5.7566@flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com>):
>
>> My Border Collie reminds me daily that she was bred for a hundred
>> years to be the dog she is. I have to work with that, not just
>> with a
>> dog.
> ...........snip
>> Now we have to go herd some basketballs, a couple of cats and maybe
>> a
>> couple of Chihuahua's if they are willing.
>
> we were cross-state Friday night and i caught an episode of the Dog
> Whisperer
> on the motel TV. (We don't get the hecesary channels ourselves.)
> He was
> working with some kind of cattle dog. Poor thing wouldn't walk on
> the leash
> AT ALL, until he started trying to herd the camera vehicle.......
>

I saw that episode and thought Caesar had maybe met his match. The
poor dog was an Australian Cattle Dog/Pit Bull cross. And had been
pretty much kept in a garage for ten months.

You can learn a great deal about how to behave around dogs from that
show.

Jo

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:10:36 -0400, Leslie & The Furbabies in MO. wrote
(in message <6c9snfF3eubh1U1@mid.individual.net>):

> Actually, Nann, he's a bit silly looking! He has tall legs and a slightly
> blocky build with a broad chest, a short-ish coat like a Lab- which is a
> Golden Retriever orange in color. He has a *very* pointy, broad head, and a
> short wide muzzle like a Chow plus the Chow's black tongue! But he has a
> heart of gold, smart as a whip and is utterly devoted to me. He's PERFECT!

well, silly looking is good too - that way he provides amusement for your bad
days!

--
Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
Change everything. Love & forgive.