Chemo Brain!

Have we seen this?

I don't agree with the "more harm than good" comment, though, as I
rather be alive than not. Also interesting about the metabolism. Might
explain my 20 pound wt gain, although I chalk that up to my chemo brain
telling me "Have some chocolate, you deserver it."

Marilyn


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061129...cancerresearch

WASHINGTON (AFP) - Common drugs used to treat cancer patients may do
more harm than good by killing healthy brain cells, a research study
shows.

The study, which further indicated that chemotherapy can cause long-term
brain damage, gives scientists clues to the causes of "chemo brain", a
side effect many cancer patients complain of while under treatment, a
summary of the research said.

Mark Noble, a specialist in neural stem cell biology at the University
of Rochester, New York, led a research team which tested healthy brain
cells with normal clinical doses of chemotherapy drugs carmustine,
cisplatin and cytosine arabinoside.

The drugs are often used to treat people suffering certain breast
cancers, lung cancer, colon cancer, leukemia, brain tumors and some
lymphomas.

The study found that the drugs were more toxic to neural cells than to
the cancer cells they targeted. The drugs killed 70-100 percent of brain
cells, while only 40-80 percent of the cancer cells were killed.

Tested on animal neural cells, the cells kept dying for six weeks after
the treatment was administered, the study found.

The scientists were not surprised that all-important dividing stem cells
were killed by the drugs, but noted the danger that "the loss of
dividing cells has onerous consequences as these populations are
responsible for replenishing the other cell types in the central nervous
system."

The study, published Wednesday in the Journal of Biology, gave
scientists some insight into the causes of "chemo brain": complaints by
some four out of five chemotherapy patients of neurological side effects
such as loss of memory, loss of vision, seizures and sometimes dementia.

"This is the first study that puts chemo brain on a sound scientific
footing, in terms of neurobiology and cellular biology," Noble said in a
statement.

A study released in October by the University of California at Los
Angeles medical school showed that chemotherapy can provoke changes in a
person's metabolism and blood flow in the brain for at least 10 years
after the treatment has ended.

<Chris@mcgill.ca> wrote in message
news:baftm2hsishud8lbrqf7307r0u2r39qt2k@4ax.com...
>
> Have we seen this?
>
> I don't agree with the "more harm than good" comment, though, as I
> rather be alive than not.

So would we all :-)

> Also interesting about the metabolism. Might
> explain my 20 pound wt gain, although I chalk that up to my chemo brain
> telling me "Have some chocolate, you deserver it."

HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

Mine tells me the same and I haven't even the excuse of chemo brain :-)

Mary
>
> Marilyn

<Chris@mcgill.ca> wrote in message
news:baftm2hsishud8lbrqf7307r0u2r39qt2k@4ax.com...

> ...."chemo brain": complaints by
> some four out of five chemotherapy patients of neurological side effects
> such as loss of memory, loss of vision, seizures and sometimes dementia.
--------------
Four out of five? Not in my universe. Maybe I'm so demented that I haven't
even noticed my dementia? Seriously, of the BC patients I know in real
life, I've only rarely heard complaints about memory loss (which menopausal
women tend to complain of anyhow--see alt.support.menopause for proof). I
haven't known anyone who had loss of vision or seizures as a result of
chemo.

Damn, and I thought I'd had every side effect one could possibly have.
Maybe I'm luckier than I know.

Eva

"Eva" <EvaDStructionNOT@NOTverizon.net> wrote in message
news:7hAbh.11492$IW2.3881@trndny03...
>
> <Chris@mcgill.ca> wrote in message
> news:baftm2hsishud8lbrqf7307r0u2r39qt2k@4ax.com...
>
>> ...."chemo brain": complaints by
>> some four out of five chemotherapy patients of neurological side effects
>> such as loss of memory, loss of vision, seizures and sometimes dementia.
> --------------
> Four out of five? Not in my universe. Maybe I'm so demented that I
> haven't
> even noticed my dementia?

LOL!

> Seriously, of the BC patients I know in real
> life, I've only rarely heard complaints about memory loss (which
> menopausal
> women tend to complain of anyhow--see alt.support.menopause for proof).

Or ask any middle aged husband - if he can remember ...
>
> Damn, and I thought I'd had every side effect one could possibly have.
> Maybe I'm luckier than I know.

We all are :-)

Mary
>
> Eva
>
>

Eva wrote:
> <Chris@mcgill.ca> wrote in message
> news:baftm2hsishud8lbrqf7307r0u2r39qt2k@4ax.com...
>
>> ...."chemo brain": complaints by
>> some four out of five chemotherapy patients of neurological side effects
>> such as loss of memory, loss of vision, seizures and sometimes dementia.
> --------------
> Four out of five? Not in my universe. Maybe I'm so demented that I haven't
> even noticed my dementia? Seriously, of the BC patients I know in real
> life, I've only rarely heard complaints about memory loss (which menopausal
> women tend to complain of anyhow--see alt.support.menopause for proof). I
> haven't known anyone who had loss of vision or seizures as a result of
> chemo.
>
> Damn, and I thought I'd had every side effect one could possibly have.
> Maybe I'm luckier than I know.
>
> Eva

The drugs cited are not commonly used for treatment of breast cancer.
So indeed, this is not referring to your universe, although the
journalist's reference to "4 out of 5 chemotherapy patients is
misleading". While the drugs may be highly toxic to brain cells, the
damage largely depends on how much of the drug can actually reach the
brain across the blood-brain barrier. Drugs for breast cancer tend not
to be chosen for their ability to do this.

>"a research team which tested healthy brain
> cells with normal clinical doses of chemotherapy drugs carmustine,
> cisplatin and cytosine arabinoside."



Tim Jackson

"Eva" <EvaDStructionNOT@NOTverizon.net> wrote in message
news:7hAbh.11492$IW2.3881@trndny03...
>
> <Chris@mcgill.ca> wrote in message
> news:baftm2hsishud8lbrqf7307r0u2r39qt2k@4ax.com...
>
>> ...."chemo brain": complaints by
>> some four out of five chemotherapy patients of neurological side effects
>> such as loss of memory, loss of vision, seizures and sometimes dementia.
> --------------
> Four out of five? Not in my universe. Maybe I'm so demented that I
> haven't
> even noticed my dementia? Seriously, of the BC patients I know in real
> life, I've only rarely heard complaints about memory loss (which
> menopausal
> women tend to complain of anyhow--see alt.support.menopause for proof). I
> haven't known anyone who had loss of vision or seizures as a result of
> chemo.

Four out of five seems high for BC, perhaps for the reasons Tim speculates.

OTOH, some incidence of chemo brain has been demonstrated in BC patients.
I'm convinced that my cognitive function declined precipitously coincident
with chemo, and has never fully recovered. Friends/co-workers have assured
me they see no change, but I certainly perceive one. It *is* tough to sort
out how much of this personal change is chemo vs. menopause vs.
Arimidex/Tamoxifen, but some of the reports I've read concerned research
that controlled for these factors respecting chemo brain & BC (don't
remember where I saw this, sorry - though I dimly recall a good article in
the Wall Street Journal a few months back . . .). I'm still in the range of
normal functioning, but I certainly am not who I was.

I sometimes wonder whether I notice or react to this more than some women
for reasons analogous to those that cause some women to be more distressed
than I am by body-image issues after mastectomy. One notices things that
hit one where one lives, maybe? Never was very appearance conscious, but
have (sigh) tended to be a bit of a bluestocking.

In my breast cancer support group & my survivors rowing team, chemo brain is
not an unusual complaint, but I don't think it's 4 out of 5.

No question, though, it seems worth it. Having had locally advanced BC, I
think I'd be dead by now if not for the aggressive treatment. Life is good.

Ann T.
Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email

>>> ...."chemo brain": complaints by
>>> some four out of five chemotherapy patients of neurological side effects
>>> such as loss of memory, loss of vision, seizures and sometimes dementia.
>> --------------
>> Four out of five? Not in my universe. Maybe I'm so demented that I
>> haven't
>> even noticed my dementia? Seriously, of the BC patients I know in real
>> life, I've only rarely heard complaints about memory loss (which
>> menopausal
>> women tend to complain of anyhow--see alt.support.menopause for proof).
>> I
>> haven't known anyone who had loss of vision or seizures as a result of
>> chemo.
>
> Four out of five seems high for BC, perhaps for the reasons Tim
> speculates.
>
> OTOH, some incidence of chemo brain has been demonstrated in BC patients.
> I'm convinced that my cognitive function declined precipitously coincident
> with chemo, and has never fully recovered. Friends/co-workers have
> assured me they see no change, but I certainly perceive one. It *is*
> tough to sort out how much of this personal change is chemo vs. menopause
> vs. Arimidex/Tamoxifen, but some of the reports I've read concerned
> research that controlled for these factors respecting chemo brain & BC
> (don't remember where I saw this, sorry - though I dimly recall a good
> article in the Wall Street Journal a few months back . . .). I'm still in
> the range of normal functioning, but I certainly am not who I was.
>
> I sometimes wonder whether I notice or react to this more than some women
> for reasons analogous to those that cause some women to be more distressed
> than I am by body-image issues after mastectomy. One notices things that
> hit one where one lives, maybe? Never was very appearance conscious, but
> have (sigh) tended to be a bit of a bluestocking.
>
> In my breast cancer support group & my survivors rowing team, chemo brain
> is not an unusual complaint, but I don't think it's 4 out of 5.
>
> No question, though, it seems worth it. Having had locally advanced BC, I
> think I'd be dead by now if not for the aggressive treatment. Life is
> good.
>
> Ann T.
> Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
>

Hi Ann,
Same here. I have always really enjoyed being "on top" of things, and I
think I'm less so now. But then, it's twenty three years since my diagnosis
and the middle age "stuff" is definitely with me! If sharpness is what got
traded for longevity, so be it!
Barb
>
>
>
>

"Barb" <ammerman@epix.net> wrote in message
news:y5Ibh.1099$Oc.92055@news1.epix.net...
>
> Same here. I have always really enjoyed being "on top" of things, and I
> think I'm less so now. But then, it's twenty three years since my
> diagnosis and the middle age "stuff" is definitely with me! If sharpness
> is what got traded for longevity, so be it!
> Barb
>>
Being less on top of things has happened to me without chemotherapy. It's
the passing of the years I suspect ...

Mary

I never "believed" in chemobrain and was certain it wasn't going to happen
to me - well guess what? My memory now is absolutely terrible - I try
making lists but sometimes in the middle of the list I forgot what I was
supposed to write! Hopefully it will get better with time. Also, my
vision got measurable worse since my chemos - now need a 2 reading glass
when six months prior needed a 1.25. After every chemo session I noticed
the change for the worse - could be due to all the steroids too - but it
would get better in week three, but then after the last taxotere it just
stayed bad.

But, life is more than good - it's great!

Tamara

"Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:456f577c$0$756$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.ne t...
>
> "Barb" <ammerman@epix.net> wrote in message
> news:y5Ibh.1099$Oc.92055@news1.epix.net...
>>
>> Same here. I have always really enjoyed being "on top" of things, and I
>> think I'm less so now. But then, it's twenty three years since my
>> diagnosis and the middle age "stuff" is definitely with me! If sharpness
>> is what got traded for longevity, so be it!
>> Barb
>>>
> Being less on top of things has happened to me without chemotherapy. It's
> the passing of the years I suspect ...
>
> Mary
>

"A.P. Thorsen" <annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:eknf4k$u5f$1@news.msu.edu...
>
> OTOH, some incidence of chemo brain has been demonstrated in BC patients.
> I'm convinced that my cognitive function declined precipitously coincident
> with chemo, and has never fully recovered. Friends/co-workers have assured
> me they see no change, but I certainly perceive one. It *is* tough to sort
> out how much of this personal change is chemo vs. menopause vs.
> Arimidex/Tamoxifen, but some of the reports I've read concerned research
> that controlled for these factors respecting chemo brain & BC (don't
> remember where I saw this, sorry - though I dimly recall a good article in
> the Wall Street Journal a few months back . . .). I'm still in the range of
> normal functioning, but I certainly am not who I was.

About three years after her original BC diagnosis, my late wife developed
a condition where she'd stop talking in mid sentence because she
couldn't think of what the next word should be. At the time we
didn't connect it with chemo brain or Arimidex/Tamoxifen aftereffects,
but it makes sense now. She also had the 20 pound weight gain and the
prescription for her eye glasses/contact lenses kept changing.

--
John Richards

On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 05:55:18 GMT, "John Richards"
<jr70@blackhole.invalid> wrote:


>About three years after her original BC diagnosis, my late wife developed
>a condition where she'd stop talking in mid sentence because she
>couldn't think of what the next word should be. At the time we
>didn't connect it with chemo brain or Arimidex/Tamoxifen aftereffects,
>but it makes sense now. She also had the 20 pound weight gain and the
>prescription for her eye glasses/contact lenses kept changing.

I've had periods where I couldn't do basic math at the grocery store -
when the clerk said $23.08 I couldn't figure out what to give her. That
seems to have improved. I also go through periods of searching for
words. They aren't consistant, but they are frustrating.

On the bright side, I had my eyes tested last month and my most
short-sighted eye is actually improved. I didn't know anything improved
at 60, except my appitite.

Marilyn

"John Richards" <jr70@blackhole.invalid> wrote in message
news:atPbh.1156$Ga1.436@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net ...
> "A.P. Thorsen" <annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:eknf4k$u5f$1@news.msu.edu...

>
> About three years after her original BC diagnosis, my late wife developed
> a condition where she'd stop talking in mid sentence because she
> couldn't think of what the next word should be.

I do that!

Eight years after ...

> At the time we
> didn't connect it with chemo brain or Arimidex/Tamoxifen aftereffects,
> but it makes sense now. She also had the 20 pound weight gain and the
> prescription for her eye glasses/contact lenses kept changing.

I've had no weight gain (or loss, sadly) and my spectacle prescription
hasn't changed in more than ten years except that I no longer need them for
driving, just close work..

We're all different and there are different responses to treatments.

Mary

<Chris@mcgill.ca> wrote in message
news:i140n2lslgckp85c45844bq5660e1rudc8@4ax.com...
>
> I've had periods where I couldn't do basic math at the grocery store -

LOL! I've NEVER been able to do that!

> when the clerk said $23.08 I couldn't figure out what to give her.

I hold out my hand with all the cash in my pocket and let them do the hard
work :-)

> That
> seems to have improved. I also go through periods of searching for
> words. They aren't consistant, but they are frustrating.

When I do public speaking I take Spouse along so that he can prompt me if I
hesitate. He knows what I want to say. That seemed to happen after I had
brain surgery in 1993 and before my bc was diagnosed in 1998.
>
> On the bright side, I had my eyes tested last month and my most
> short-sighted eye is actually improved. I didn't know anything improved
> at 60, except my appitite.

In the last couple of years ours has diminished, sadly. Still don't lose
weight though :-(

It all just goes to show the variety of responses to treatment and age.

Mary
>
> Marilyn

I agree if I need to do something I need to run with the thought and get it
done or I forget.