"ChemoBrain" article

Hi,
There is an excellent article on research on chemo-fog in the NY Times -
April 28th at www.nytimes.com. Physicians are beginning to take women's
complaints seriously and using stimulants in some cases.
Greta

`
"Greta" <sarek-gmc@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:FfRYh.86296$VU4.66531@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Hi,
> There is an excellent article on research on chemo-fog in the NY Times -
> April 28th at www.nytimes.com. Physicians are beginning to take women's
> complaints seriously and using stimulants in some cases.
> Greta

I read it today too ...found it interesting that the Times is quoting
internet sites.
>

"Greta" <sarek-gmc@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:FfRYh.86296$VU4.66531@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Hi,
> There is an excellent article on research on chemo-fog in the NY Times -
> April 28th at www.nytimes.com. Physicians are beginning to take women's
> complaints seriously and using stimulants in some cases.
> Greta

Don't you think doctors DO take women's complaints seriously? I think they
do.

In the prostate cancer ng the men there complain because their condition
isn't taken as seriously as women's!

I think they do.

Mary
>
>

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:02:03 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
<mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>"Greta" <sarek-gmc@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:FfRYh.86296$VU4.66531@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> Hi,
>> There is an excellent article on research on chemo-fog in the NY Times -
>> April 28th at www.nytimes.com. Physicians are beginning to take women's
>> complaints seriously and using stimulants in some cases.
>> Greta
>
>Don't you think doctors DO take women's complaints seriously? I think they
>do.
>
>In the prostate cancer ng the men there complain because their condition
>isn't taken as seriously as women's!
>
>I think they do.

I think my doctor does, but I haven't made this an issue with her,
because she has her work cut out keeping up with all my other health
plroblems.

I'v learnt to keep an electronic diary, with a PDA to carry around with
me which co-ordinates with my PC. I write copious notes about things I
need to do, along with lists, menu plans, shopping lists.

I can still do the crossword although it takes me much longer than it
used to, but still, over a year after the end of chemo, I have problems
recalling words I'm perfectly familiar with at the time I need to use
them.

My son thinks this is terribly amusing and is happy to supply me with
the correct word when I explain what it is I want the word for.

"long wooden thing with a lead all the way through, used for writing",
is of course, a pencil, just for one example. I suppose it *is* quite
amusing if it isn't happening to you.

I don't mind so much when I'm at home, because after all, I hardly work
any more except for maybe 4 hours a month, but when I'm at a meeting
concerning the charity I'm involved in, I'm always worried in case it
happens when I'm speaking, because I'm not actually senile or bonkers
yet, really I'm not.

What I want to know is will it ever go away completely, or will it just
seamlessly join up with the problems sometimes caused by old age?
--
It's easier to get forgiveness than permission. - Banksy

<x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kps833ppd6s2ssd28mnti3m6bhvfodkj1t@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:02:03 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
> <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>"Greta" <sarek-gmc@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>news:FfRYh.86296$VU4.66531@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>> Hi,
>>> There is an excellent article on research on chemo-fog in the NY Times -
>>> April 28th at www.nytimes.com. Physicians are beginning to take women's
>>> complaints seriously and using stimulants in some cases.
>>> Greta
>>
>>Don't you think doctors DO take women's complaints seriously? I think they
>>do.
>>
>>In the prostate cancer ng the men there complain because their condition
>>isn't taken as seriously as women's!
>>
>>I think they do.
>
> I think my doctor does, but I haven't made this an issue with her,
> because she has her work cut out keeping up with all my other health
> plroblems.
>
> I'v learnt to keep an electronic diary, with a PDA to carry around with
> me which co-ordinates with my PC. I write copious notes about things I
> need to do, along with lists, menu plans, shopping lists.
>
> I can still do the crossword although it takes me much longer than it
> used to, but still, over a year after the end of chemo, I have problems
> recalling words I'm perfectly familiar with at the time I need to use
> them.
>
> My son thinks this is terribly amusing and is happy to supply me with
> the correct word when I explain what it is I want the word for.
>
> "long wooden thing with a lead all the way through, used for writing",
> is of course, a pencil, just for one example. I suppose it *is* quite
> amusing if it isn't happening to you.
>
> I don't mind so much when I'm at home, because after all, I hardly work
> any more except for maybe 4 hours a month, but when I'm at a meeting
> concerning the charity I'm involved in, I'm always worried in case it
> happens when I'm speaking, because I'm not actually senile or bonkers
> yet, really I'm not.
>
> What I want to know is will it ever go away completely, or will it just
> seamlessly join up with the problems sometimes caused by old age?

I've never had chemo but your symptoms sound like the ones I'm putting down
to advancing years ... and a bit of damage during brain surgery - which
saved my life. A small price to pay :-)

Mary
> --
> It's easier to get forgiveness than permission. - Banksy

>Don't you think doctors DO take women's
> complaints seriously? I think they do.

I think it depends on the woman. If she is high-strung or an
emotionally charged patient, I certainly DON'T think they take her
complaint as seriously as they would a man unless she confronts them and
insists they do.

Many men don't get their complaints taken as seriously as they should
because, from my experience, they do not want to confront their doctors
or take an active part in their own medical care. The doctor could give
them a bottle of doo doo pills to take and they would swallow them
without bothering to check on side effects etc from "my" experience with
certain males. Now, of course, we know Allan and Tim must be either a
doctor's dream patient or "worse nightmare" because it would seem from
their posts on here, they DO take their own medical care and the care of
those they love, seriously.

I think doctors respect patients who take an active part in their own
medical care. "They" learn from books what to prescribe to us but "we"
learn from our own bodies what is best for us.

Bea

'NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"

"Eva" <EvaDStructionNOT@NOTverizon.net> wrote in message
news:kW1Zh.1109$dy2.393@trndny01...
>

> In fact, I was annoyed when talking to my new oncologist for the first
time,
> because she asked me some question and I couldn't recall the answer, and
she
> said "Well, of course, you have chemo brain." I replied that I had
> experienced just about every other awful side effect from chemo, but had
> *not* noticed any cognitive decline. ("Don't patronize me, bitch!" was
> what I really wanted to say.)
>
> I've *never* been able to remember details of when something happened, or
> what dosage of a particular medicine I took, or how long I took it for. I
> don't even remember when I first felt the lump in my breast. I remember
the
> day I was diagnosed--June 30, 2004--but I can't remember whether it was
May,
> April, or even March when I first felt something funny in the shower. I
> think forgetting traumatic things is pretty common too, and doesn't
> necessarily involve drug side effects.
-------------
Oh, yeah, and now that I'm finished ranting, let me say thank you to Greta
for pointing me to a really good article. Not only does it talk about chemo
brain, it also touches on the disparities between middle class and
lower-income women when it comes to cancer treatment.

Eva

"Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:46345f0b$0$763$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.ne t...
>
> "Greta" <sarek-gmc@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:FfRYh.86296$VU4.66531@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Hi,
> > There is an excellent article on research on chemo-fog in the NY Times -
> > April 28th at www.nytimes.com. Physicians are beginning to take women's
> > complaints seriously and using stimulants in some cases.
> > Greta
>
> Don't you think doctors DO take women's complaints seriously? I think they
> do.
------------------
In fact, I was annoyed when talking to my new oncologist for the first time,
because she asked me some question and I couldn't recall the answer, and she
said "Well, of course, you have chemo brain." I replied that I had
experienced just about every other awful side effect from chemo, but had
*not* noticed any cognitive decline. ("Don't patronize me, bitch!" was
what I really wanted to say.)

I've *never* been able to remember details of when something happened, or
what dosage of a particular medicine I took, or how long I took it for. I
don't even remember when I first felt the lump in my breast. I remember the
day I was diagnosed--June 30, 2004--but I can't remember whether it was May,
April, or even March when I first felt something funny in the shower. I
think forgetting traumatic things is pretty common too, and doesn't
necessarily involve drug side effects.

Eva

"Eva" <EvaDStructionNOT@NOTverizon.net> wrote in message
news:1_1Zh.779$b61.338@trndny09...
>

....

> -------------
> Oh, yeah, and now that I'm finished ranting, let me say thank you to Greta
> for pointing me to a really good article. Not only does it talk about
> chemo
> brain, it also touches on the disparities between middle class and
> lower-income women when it comes to cancer treatment.

I honestly don't think that applies in Britain.

But, come to think of it, I thought USA prided itself on being classless ...
:-)

Mary
>
> Eva
>
>

>But, come to think of it, I thought USA prided
> itself on being classless ...

>:-) Mary

Well goodness Mary! We have to have "something" to pride ourselves with
the way things are going here these days! Then again, if we can just
last until 2008, there may still be hope for the good ole USA, classless
or no.

Bea




"NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"

<bartalo@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23356-4634EE60-789@storefull-3255.bay.webtv.net...
> >But, come to think of it, I thought USA prided
>> itself on being classless ...
>
>>:-) Mary
>
> Well goodness Mary! We have to have "something" to pride ourselves with
> the way things are going here these days! Then again, if we can just
> last until 2008, there may still be hope for the good ole USA, classless
> or no.
>
> Bea

:-)

Mary

>
> Well goodness Mary! We have to have "something" to pride ourselves with
> the way things are going here these days! Then again, if we can just
> last until 2008, there may still be hope for the good ole USA, classless
> or no.
>
> Bea

Bea, you are totally out of line making a political statement on this cancer
website.
I would suggest you stick to the subject and not bash your own country in
front
of the whole world.

S.K. (had chemo--brain is fine.)

>Bea, you are totally out of line making a
> political statement on this cancer website.
> would suggest you stick to the subject and
>not bash your own country in front
>of the whole world.

>S.K. (had chemo--brain is fine.)

Excuse me S.K. but my dearest Mary brought up the subject of my country
and I was responding to her remark. If you consider it "bashing" my
country you must not be a US citizen or probably a "Republican"! I
think the US is "one" of the greatest countries on Earth other than
England and a few other of my favorites. If you think what I wrote was
"bashing" you evidentally don't read our newspapers and the Letters to
the Editors these days.

If I am concerned about my country it is because I would like some of
the BILLIONS spent elsewheres to be used more for cancer research so one
day this support group will not be necessary! So my response to Mary
was on topic in my opinion.

My apologies to anyone else and to the "Whole World" who may have
misunderstood my post.

Bea

'NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"

>>
>> I can still do the crossword although it takes me much longer than it
>> used to, but still, over a year after the end of chemo, I have problems
>> recalling words I'm perfectly familiar with at the time I need to use
>> them.
>>
>> My son thinks this is terribly amusing and is happy to supply me with
>> the correct word when I explain what it is I want the word for.
>>
>> "long wooden thing with a lead all the way through, used for writing",
>> is of course, a pencil, just for one example. I suppose it *is* quite
>> amusing if it isn't happening to you.



>>
>> lol, thats exactly what I'm going thru.....describing things I need the
>> word for.
every-one at work says I can't use 'chemo-brain' nearly 2 years on...but
I still
feel as if I'm not the same,,,slower mentally, But a small price to
pay.....If thats the deal,
for being N E D......fingers crossed for August appt. I take NOTHING for
granted , these days.
I'm pleased it's being recognised at last

Pam xx

"Bea Oo" <pm95sb@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20035-463521F5-601@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net...
> >Bea, you are totally out of line making a
>> political statement on this cancer website.
>> would suggest you stick to the subject and
>>not bash your own country in front
>>of the whole world.
>
>>S.K. (had chemo--brain is fine.)
>
> Excuse me S.K. but my dearest Mary brought up the subject of my country
> and I was responding to her remark. If you consider it "bashing" my
> country you must not be a US citizen or probably a "Republican"!

I'm neither but I didn't see it as bashing anyway :-)

>
> If I am concerned about my country it is because I would like some of
> the BILLIONS spent elsewheres to be used more for cancer research so one
> day this support group will not be necessary! So my response to Mary
> was on topic in my opinion.

I think so too.

In a way Greta could have been thought to have been making a political
statement - by some. But not by me. There are some who will see politics in
any statement.

Mary
>
Mary

<x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kps833ppd6s2ssd28mnti3m6bhvfodkj1t@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 10:02:03 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
> <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>"Greta" <sarek-gmc@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>>news:FfRYh.86296$VU4.66531@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>> Hi,
>>> There is an excellent article on research on chemo-fog in the NY Times -
>>> April 28th at www.nytimes.com. >
....
> What I want to know is will it ever go away completely, or will it just
> seamlessly join up with the problems sometimes caused by old age?

Mine improved very significantly over a period of time (can't recall <g>,
but at least months and perhaps up to a couple of years) following chemo.
But I've never regained my former cognitive acuity. People around me say
they can't see a difference, but I can.

Many try to tell me this is just aging, or just menopause, but the loss
during & following chemo was not gradual decline. It was like falling off a
cliff.

That said, I know many other women who say either that they experienced no
cognitive decline, or that it reversed fully some time after treatment
finished.

Ann T.
Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email

"Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4634c25f$0$763$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.ne t...
>
> "Eva" <EvaDStructionNOT@NOTverizon.net> wrote in message
> news:1_1Zh.779$b61.338@trndny09...
>> -------------
>> Oh, yeah, and now that I'm finished ranting, let me say thank you to
>> Greta
>> for pointing me to a really good article. Not only does it talk about
>> chemo
>> brain, it also touches on the disparities between middle class and
>> lower-income women when it comes to cancer treatment.
......
> I honestly don't think that applies in Britain.
>
> But, come to think of it, I thought USA prided itself on being classless
> ... :-)

At this risk of being "political" (heavens forfend <g>), I think we're far
from classless. However, I think class membership is quite astonishingly
fluid -- in many/most parts of the country, the issue is not where/to whom
you are born, but what your personal educational level, job, income &
behavior are.

If you look at it in that light, much of what the article is saying about
class is that more educated people do more research & that proactive people
are more active participants in their own treatment, which shouldn't be
exactly startling.

I'm pretty sure class does affect medical treatment in some ways. Doctors
have to make quick judgements about people -- they're busy, and see many
patients and families. We all expect them to explain things in a way we
can understand, and be clear & complete when they do so.

That means that good doctors need to pitch explanations to our level of
understanding. It's natural that they'd use class markers (dress, speech)
to make quick judgements about where to start. They probably also make
experiential guesses about how much we want to know, how able we are to
weigh scientific evidence, how much we're likely to desire a more
authoritarian recommendation vs. information to make our own decision, etc.

*Really* good communicators among doctors then fine-tune throughout the
conversation based on responses. But we all know that many doctors are
better technical experts than communicators (which is what I'd choose for
them to be, if they insist on being human, thus not perfect at everything
<g>).

I've had waaaaay too much experience with the medical profession (doctors &
others) through my husband's cancer, my dad's accidents & health crises, my
cancer, and other family health issues. Now, I consciously dress as the
class that I want to be treated like (essentially the class that I am)
during medical encounters, and am careful to speak likewise, especially in
the first parts of the encounter. I'm not talking about anything truly
Machiavellian here, but, for example, wearing careful "office casual"
instead of jeans & a t-shirt.

And I don't think we in the U.S. particularly pride ourselves on being
classless per se -- I don't think most people think of class explicitly at
all. But I guess we may have kind of a bizarre pride in the idea that you
are what you make of yourself, not what you're born to. In this day, I
suspect the idea that birth dooms you to a role is pretty much obsolete in
the UK also, though I don't have any actual info to support that suspicion.

Ann T.
Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email

SK wrote:
>> Well goodness Mary! We have to have "something" to pride ourselves with
>> the way things are going here these days! Then again, if we can just
>> last until 2008, there may still be hope for the good ole USA, classless
>> or no.
>>
>> Bea
>
> Bea, you are totally out of line making a political statement on this cancer
> website.
> I would suggest you stick to the subject and not bash your own country in
> front
> of the whole world.
>
> S.K. (had chemo--brain is fine.)
>
>

I disagree.

In netiquette the phrase "off topic" refers to posts, and in particular
original posts (the first in a thread) who's primary topic is outside
the scope of the group, and this is of course disparaged.

But that does not make all subjects other than the stated topic taboo.
It is perfectly acceptable for posts to incidentally mention other
topics, indeed it would be hard to avoid doing so.

A certain amount of "topic drift" within a thread is also generally seen
as acceptable, and can sometimes be fun. There is nothing wrong with
parts of a thread following an of-topic side issue from the original, as
long as it does not become overwhelming.

And in any case, one cannot completely divorce public health issues from
politics, especially in countries like mine where the health system is
run by the government (and I will happily both praise and criticise
either as appropriate). Even in the US, government defines much of the
framework in which the services are provided.


Tim Jackson

"A.P. Thorsen" <annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f14slh$7cm$1@news.msu.edu...

....

>
> Mine improved very significantly over a period of time (can't recall <g>,
> but at least months and perhaps up to a couple of years) following chemo.
> But I've never regained my former cognitive acuity. People around me say
> they can't see a difference, but I can.
>
> Many try to tell me this is just aging, or just menopause, but the loss
> during & following chemo was not gradual decline. It was like falling off
> a cliff.
>
> That said, I know many other women who say either that they experienced no
> cognitive decline, or that it reversed fully some time after treatment
> finished.

And there are those of us who experience it despite not having chemo :-)

And those of us who don't even have any cancer of any kind ...

Mary

"A.P. Thorsen" <annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f14v06$92m$1@news.msu.edu...
> "Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:4634c25f$0$763$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.ne t...
>>
>> "Eva" <EvaDStructionNOT@NOTverizon.net> wrote in message
>> news:1_1Zh.779$b61.338@trndny09...
>>> -------------
>>> Oh, yeah, and now that I'm finished ranting, let me say thank you to
>>> Greta
>>> for pointing me to a really good article. Not only does it talk about
>>> chemo
>>> brain, it also touches on the disparities between middle class and
>>> lower-income women when it comes to cancer treatment.
> .....
>> I honestly don't think that applies in Britain.
>>
>> But, come to think of it, I thought USA prided itself on being classless
>> ... :-)
>
> At this risk of being "political" (heavens forfend <g>),

LOL!

> I think we're far from classless.

So do I - but that's what I've been told by some of the (few) Americans I
know. I don't argue with them.

No, honestly I don't - believe it or not <BG>

> However, I think class membership is quite astonishingly fluid -- in
> many/most parts of the country, the issue is not where/to whom you are
> born, but what your personal educational level, job, income & behavior
> are.

That's the problem with the word 'class'. Nobody every defines it so it can
mean anything and everything. It's cr*p.
>
> If you look at it in that light, much of what the article is saying about
> class is that more educated people do more research & that proactive
> people are more active participants in their own treatment, which
> shouldn't be exactly startling.

I'm not particularly well educated - I'm reminded that someone on a 'comedy'
programme tonight said that he wanted to go to the University of Life but he
was rejected so had to go to Southampton :-). I've never been to university.
I sometimes say that I've had the best schooling in the world - entirely
self educated ... but that's open to everyone who wants it.
>
> I'm pretty sure class does affect medical treatment in some ways.
> Doctors have to make quick judgements about people -- they're busy, and
> see many patients and families. We all expect them to explain things in
> a way we can understand, and be clear & complete when they do so.

Perhaps, Ann - but what exactly do you mean by 'class'? Is it education? Is
it money? Is it 'breeding'? Is it an attitude - aspiring that is? Is it
lifestyle (whatever THAT is)? Is it how you spend your money or how you
spend your leisure? Is it your job? Is it your accent or your use of
language? Is it the way we dress?

I don't know.
>
> That means that good doctors need to pitch explanations to our level of
> understanding. It's natural that they'd use class markers (dress, speech)
> to make quick judgements about where to start.

I'm not sure about that. See below.

> They probably also make experiential guesses about how much we want to
> know, how able we are to weigh scientific evidence, how much we're likely
> to desire a more authoritarian recommendation vs. information to make our
> own decision, etc.
>
....
>
> I've had waaaaay too much experience with the medical profession (doctors
> & others) through my husband's cancer, my dad's accidents & health crises,
> my cancer, and other family health issues. Now, I consciously dress as
> the class that I want to be treated like (essentially the class that I am)
> during medical encounters, and am careful to speak likewise, especially in
> the first parts of the encounter. I'm not talking about anything truly
> Machiavellian here, but, for example, wearing careful "office casual"
> instead of jeans & a t-shirt.

Well, I very rarely wear anything other than jeans and a (man's, usually)
shirt. When it's hot I wear shorts, despite being fat, and a T shirt.
Wherever I am. If I go to a wedding I wheel out the only frock I have, which
is from the 70s, I don't like wearinig frocks. I don't own a skirt. I'm
scruffy (although clean). And yet I'm spoken to as an intelligent person, in
fact medical people give me a lot of time and information.
>
> And I don't think we in the U.S. particularly pride ourselves on being
> classless per se -- I don't think most people think of class explicitly
> at all.

Well, sadly I find that Americans often comment on the class ridden British
Society. When I was in Washington State I was mocked for my accent - which
is English after all :-). I don't mock anyone's accent, it's bad mannered.
But I was seen as fair game by some people in USA. They'd been watching
'Upstairs Downstairs' and heard me as part of a despised 'Upstairs' people.

I don't denigrate anyone who has the courtesy to accept others (as do most
'Upstairs' folk in my experience).

> But I guess we may have kind of a bizarre pride in the idea that you are
> what you make of yourself, not what you're born to.

Ah, the meritocracy. Another form of 'class'?

> In this day, I suspect the idea that birth dooms you to a role is pretty
> much obsolete in the UK also, though I don't have any actual info to
> support that suspicion.

Well, people who are born into a family which doesn't rate them, which
doesn't stretch them at all, which even discourages them, have little
chance. There will be exceptions. That could be called 'doom' and I suppose
there are such families in USA.

It's a very difficult and convoluted subject, I for one would be very happy
to discuss it but certainly don't want to bore anyone.

Mary

>
> Ann T.
> Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email
>

>It's a very difficult and convoluted subject, I for
> one would be very happy to discuss it but
> certainly don't want to bore anyone.

>Mary

May I chime in my American 2 cents worth on the subject of class? I was
raised to believe it is a form of good breeding and you can have it
whether you are rich or poor. "Class" is knowing one doesn't wear "red"
to a funeral and dresses properly for the occasion whatever it may be..

In my opinion, many of our wealthiest entertainers have no class because
they behave in public like trash. Money cannot buy class. It is a
form of behavior and if you have it you know people may not like you but
they will respect you. One shows class in the way they dress, act, and
even speak. A classy person can have a confrontation with someone and
never use foul language.

It is a demeanor and shows good upbringing. In my opinion, we all
should aspire to have "class". Frankly, I think we have a lot of it
in this group by the way we interact with each other.


Bea

'NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"

Bea Oo wrote:
> May I chime in my American 2 cents worth on the subject of class? I was
> raised to believe it is a form of good breeding and you can have it
> whether you are rich or poor. "Class" is knowing one doesn't wear "red"
> to a funeral and dresses properly for the occasion whatever it may be..
>


This reminds of my favourite quote from Catharine Honeyman, late
contributor to this group.

"I adhere to my grandmother's words of good sense. Don't write anything
that you wouldn't want read out loud at your funeral, and don't allow
anyone to take pictures of you that you would be ashamed to have on the
cover of the Ladies' Home Journal. She was also the ladylike creature
who told me that if I kept my bowels open and my mouth shut I'd never
come to any trouble in the world."


Tim Jackson

"Tim Jackson" <tim@tim-jackson.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4636e25b$0$8756$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
> Bea Oo wrote:
>> May I chime in my American 2 cents worth on the subject of class? I was
>> raised to believe it is a form of good breeding and you can have it
>> whether you are rich or poor. "Class" is knowing one doesn't wear "red"
>> to a funeral and dresses properly for the occasion whatever it may be..
>
>
> This reminds of my favourite quote from Catharine Honeyman, late
> contributor to this group.
>
> "I adhere to my grandmother's words of good sense. Don't write anything
> that you wouldn't want read out loud at your funeral, and don't allow
> anyone to take pictures of you that you would be ashamed to have on the
> cover of the Ladies' Home Journal. She was also the ladylike creature who
> told me that if I kept my bowels open and my mouth shut I'd never come to
> any trouble in the world."

Nice one. Trouble is, dear Catharine ended up here ... :-(

I'd be very happy for everyone to wear red at my funeral, red noses too if
they want to. I want my funeral to be a party and everyone's been given
instructions about that. If they don't enjoy themselves I'll haunt them :-)

Mary

"Bea Oo" <pm95sb@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23358-463669F9-139@storefull-3255.bay.webtv.net...
> >It's a very difficult and convoluted subject, I for
>> one would be very happy to discuss it but
>> certainly don't want to bore anyone.
>
>>Mary
>
> May I chime in my American 2 cents worth on the subject of class? I was
> raised to believe it is a form of good breeding and you can have it
> whether you are rich or poor. "Class" is knowing one doesn't wear "red"
> to a funeral and dresses properly for the occasion whatever it may be..
>
> In my opinion, many of our wealthiest entertainers have no class because
> they behave in public like trash. Money cannot buy class. It is a
> form of behavior and if you have it you know people may not like you but
> they will respect you. One shows class in the way they dress, act, and
> even speak. A classy person can have a confrontation with someone and
> never use foul language.
>
> It is a demeanor and shows good upbringing. In my opinion, we all
> should aspire to have "class". Frankly, I think we have a lot of it
> in this group by the way we interact with each other.

That's a good definition of 'class' - but where do the upper, middle and
lower classes fit into it ?

:-)

Mary
>
>
> Bea
>
> 'NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"
>

>I'd be very happy for everyone to wear red at
> my funeral, red noses too if they want to. I
> want my funeral to be a party and everyone's
> been given instructions about that. If they
> don't enjoy themselves I'll haunt them :-)

Mary

You see this is where "class" fits in the mode very nicely. If this is
what you consider would be right for your "passing on" then it would be
classy for your friends and relatives to adhere to your wishes. In
your case, it would be unclassy for everyone else to be in bright
joyful colors and some lame dude to show up in "black". Besides, who
wants to be "haunted"?<g

Bea

'NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"

>That's a good definition of 'class' - but where
> do the upper, middle and
>lower classes fit into it ?

>:-)
>Mary

That's the beauty of real "class". You can't buy it with money. Rich,
middleclass and poor all have access to it. It's a lifestyle and proper
breeding and parents can pass it on to their children no matter if rich
or poor.

Bea

'NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"

"Bea Oo" <pm95sb@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:21128-46376122-863@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net...
> >I'd be very happy for everyone to wear red at
>> my funeral, red noses too if they want to. I
>> want my funeral to be a party and everyone's
>> been given instructions about that. If they
>> don't enjoy themselves I'll haunt them :-)
>
> Mary
>
> You see this is where "class" fits in the mode very nicely. If this is
> what you consider would be right for your "passing on" then it would be
> classy for your friends and relatives to adhere to your wishes. In
> your case, it would be unclassy for everyone else to be in bright
> joyful colors and some lame dude to show up in "black". Besides, who
> wants to be "haunted"?<g
>
I don't like black even in life, it always looks dowdy to me - and it shows
dirt, hairs, dandruff etc. Bleurch!

No when I die I want people to SHOW how pleased they are :-)

Everyone's invited!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dress outrageously or come as you are ...
no flowers please, just a bottle.

Full.

Mary

"Bea Oo" <pm95sb@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:21128-463762FA-871@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net...
> >That's a good definition of 'class' - but where
>> do the upper, middle and
>>lower classes fit into it ?
>
>>:-)
>>Mary
>
> That's the beauty of real "class". You can't buy it with money. Rich,
> middleclass and poor all have access to it. It's a lifestyle and proper
> breeding and parents can pass it on to their children no matter if rich
> or poor.
>
> Bea

Yes, Bea, I agree with you. but I really think that's a different kind of
class the article was talking about. Eva said:

"Oh, yeah, and now that I'm finished ranting, let me say thank you to Greta
for pointing me to a really good article. Not only does it talk about chemo
brain, it also touches on the disparities between middle class and
lower-income women when it comes to cancer treatment.

Eva"

and that's what this thread drift was about - at least my part in it. I
don't think that your (and my) interpretation of 'class' is what the article
meant.

Mary

Mary




>
> 'NO FORWARDS OR SPAM, PLEASE"
>