Grapefruit Linked to Breast Cancer

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6900482.stm

Great! I was told that having too much fresh orange juice caused alot of
acidity in the body so I decided to change over and juice grapefruits as
lemons and grapefruits are supposed to be better for you and more alkaline
to the body. Cancer thrives in an acidic environment. Even though this
information related to EATING the flesh - it would also be digested and
absorbed the same I would think! Maybe its back to the drawing board and
just sticking to warm lemon drinks first thing in the morning. I really
thought grapefruit was an antioxidant - especially when you werent supposed
to eat/drink it during chemo and the drug interactions involved. I must be
getting SO confused with all the information im reading.
Mary E.

<simple_language@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1184654605.390526.224210@57g2000hsv.googlegro ups.com...
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6900482.stm
>

"Mary E." <happy@home.com> wrote in message
news:Czgni.8733$4A1.8421@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Great! I was told that having too much fresh orange juice caused alot of
> acidity in the body so I decided to change over and juice grapefruits as
> lemons and grapefruits are supposed to be better for you and more alkaline
> to the body. Cancer thrives in an acidic environment. Even though this
> information related to EATING the flesh - it would also be digested and
> absorbed the same I would think! Maybe its back to the drawing board and
> just sticking to warm lemon drinks first thing in the morning. I really
> thought grapefruit was an antioxidant - especially when you werent
> supposed to eat/drink it during chemo and the drug interactions involved.
> I must be getting SO confused with all the information im reading.
> Mary E.

Mary, stop reading. Ask questions of your oncologist or here - and learn
from those of us who have long experience and people like Tim who can sort
out the good research from the silly, useless, sensational, out of date or
downright bad.

There's a huge amount of tosh around. We often sound like sceptics but we
have good reason to.

Another thing - don't waste your life reading, get out and enjoy it. Take
each day at a time and don't worry.

Hugs,

Mary

"Mary E." <happy@home.com> wrote in message
news:Czgni.8733$4A1.8421@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Great! I was told that having too much fresh orange juice caused alot of
> acidity in the body so I decided to change over and juice grapefruits as
> lemons and grapefruits are supposed to be better for you and more alkaline
> to the body. Cancer thrives in an acidic environment.
....
> I really thought grapefruit was an antioxidant - especially when you
> werent supposed to eat/drink it during chemo and the drug interactions
> involved. I must be getting SO confused with all the information im
> reading.

Grapefruit does contain anti-oxidants, which (within reason) are good for
you. It also contains (jargon warning!) CYP3A4 inhibitors, which --
without going into a lot of detail -- change how our bodies process other
drugs, nutrients, and naturally-occurring chemicals in our bodies.

Because of this effect, grapefruit should not be eaten when using certain
drugs - this has been known for a while. The usual effect is as if those
compounds in grapefruit make the body absorb more of the drug than usual,
potentially leading to overdoses (in effect). This drug interaction occurs
because grapefruit has these CYP3A4 inhibitors, not just because it's an
antioxidant.

This article seems to be saying that the same compounds in grapefruit may
also increase effective levels of naturally-generated estrogen in the body.
(Our bodies keep manufacturing estrogen after menopause, in fat cells and
other organs, even though the ovaries have stopped manufacturing estrogen. )
It seems that that increase in naturally-generated estrogen levels may
increase risk of post-menopausal breast cancer.

Personally, I'd already backed way off grapefruit after reading about CYP3A4
inhibition, even though I'm not now taking any drugs it increases risks
with. *Totally* speculating, it seems reasonable to guess that if you're
taking an estrogen agonist/antagonist (Tamoxifen, Arimidex, etc., etc.),
you'd have manufactured less estrogen in the first place, giving the
grapefruit less scope to cause problems.

I wouldn't panic. But speaking purely personally, reading this makes me
glad I'd been avoiding any significant, regular grapefruit consumption.

A couple of gratuitous background comments:

1. I think one is advised to avoid megadoses of antioxidants during chemo
because some positive (cancer-fighting) effects of chemo work through
oxidation, and unusually large doses of antioxidants might counter-act the
chemo's work.

2. I've read quite a bit about cancer & nutrition, and I've never read a
mainstream source that gave credence to the idea that acidity or alkalinity
of the body (via foods) was important to avoiding cancer. I have read some
snake-oil peddlars that said so. It could be so, and I've never researched
that specific question in detail, but I'm skeptical. Does anyone have a
respected source that supports that theory?

Ann T.
Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:44:37 -0400, "A.P. Thorsen"
<annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I wouldn't panic. But speaking purely personally, reading this makes me
>glad I'd been avoiding any significant, regular grapefruit consumption.

Well, I can't say that because I've eaten lots of grapefruit for years,
not every day, but possibly one half grapefruit 3 times a week. Not
only that but I drink lots of grapefruit juice as well.

I wonder whether I should stop drinking it. I'm on Arimidex. Would
that protect me from its effects?

Sorry if I'm being thick.
--
"It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper

<x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ivgs939nrv2sukeqf1l9tfkekrma8c98sr@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:44:37 -0400, "A.P. Thorsen"
> <annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>I wouldn't panic. But speaking purely personally, reading this makes me
>>glad I'd been avoiding any significant, regular grapefruit consumption.
>
> Well, I can't say that because I've eaten lots of grapefruit for years,
> not every day, but possibly one half grapefruit 3 times a week. Not
> only that but I drink lots of grapefruit juice as well.
>
> I wonder whether I should stop drinking it. I'm on Arimidex. Would
> that protect me from its effects?
>
> Sorry if I'm being thick.

I think the best thing would be to take the article to your doctor or
(better, if available) the nutritionist/dietitician at your cancer center,
and ask about it. I'm not a professional.

That said, if it were me, unless I were bodily addicted to the grapefruit,
I'd cut back on it until the evidence clarifies. It's an optional food in
my life, there are lots of tasty alternatives, and there's no reason to
think it has *special* cancer-fighting properties to weigh off against the
risk. So why take the risk? (That's pretty much what I decided about soy
when the evidence was murky, and I'm vegetarian.)

While it's possible (wildly speculating here) that Arimidex would reduce the
risk, I wouldn't think it would eliminate it.

But you should ask someone who actually knows something <g>!

Ann T.
Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email

"A.P. Thorsen" <annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f7lg1q$oop$1@news.msu.edu...
....

....
>
> This article seems to be saying that the same compounds in grapefruit may
> also increase effective levels of naturally-generated estrogen in the
> body. (Our bodies keep manufacturing estrogen after menopause, in fat
> cells and other organs, even though the ovaries have stopped manufacturing
> estrogen. ) It seems that that increase in naturally-generated estrogen
> levels may increase risk of post-menopausal breast cancer.

What - even when eating one half of grapefruit once a week?
>
> Personally, I'd already backed way off grapefruit after reading about
> CYP3A4 inhibition, even though I'm not now taking any drugs it increases
> risks with. *Totally* speculating, it seems reasonable to guess that if
> you're taking an estrogen agonist/antagonist (Tamoxifen, Arimidex, etc.,
> etc.), you'd have manufactured less estrogen in the first place, giving
> the grapefruit less scope to cause problems.

I'm still (at 68) producing a lot of oestrogen - which does have some
advantages - but I can't believe that half a grapefruit on (most) Sundays
would affect this ...
>
....
>
> 2. I've read quite a bit about cancer & nutrition, and I've never read a
> mainstream source that gave credence to the idea that acidity or
> alkalinity of the body (via foods) was important to avoiding cancer. I
> have read some snake-oil peddlars that said so. It could be so, and I've
> never researched that specific question in detail, but I'm skeptical.
> Does anyone have a respected source that supports that theory?

No. Is snake oil an anti-oxidant as well as everything else?

:-)

Mary

"A.P. Thorsen" <annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f7lll8$t3d$1@news.msu.edu...
>


> But you should ask someone who actually knows something <g>!

Yes. You know, Ann, that I hold you in the highest regard.

I've asked my oncologist and breast care nurse and surgeon and anyone else
about what foods I should avoid/ choose and grapefruit has never been
mentioned in any list. Nor has any citrus fruit - or any fruit or vegetable.

Meat, dairy and fats have. I cannot tell a lie, I still eat cheese daily,
drink milk daily and eat meat four or five times a week.

So it looks as though I'm doomed :-)

But happy!

Mary

<x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ivgs939nrv2sukeqf1l9tfkekrma8c98sr@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:44:37 -0400, "A.P. Thorsen"
> <annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>I wouldn't panic. But speaking purely personally, reading this makes me
>>glad I'd been avoiding any significant, regular grapefruit consumption.
>
> Well, I can't say that because I've eaten lots of grapefruit for years,
> not every day, but possibly one half grapefruit 3 times a week.

Ooh - you little tinker!

> Not
> only that but I drink lots of grapefruit juice as well.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!
>
> I wonder whether I should stop drinking it. I'm on Arimidex. Would
> that protect me from its effects?

Has your medical oncologist said anything about it?
>
> Sorry if I'm being thick.

Perhaps that's the result of all that grapefruit ...

You're obviously beyond redemption!

Hugs,

Mary

"Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:469e6283$0$30776$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet. net...
>
> "A.P. Thorsen" <annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:f7lg1q$oop$1@news.msu.edu...
.....
>> This article seems to be saying that the same compounds in grapefruit may
>> also increase effective levels of naturally-generated estrogen in the
>> body. (Our bodies keep manufacturing estrogen after menopause, in fat
>> cells and other organs, even though the ovaries have stopped
>> manufacturing estrogen. ) It seems that that increase in
>> naturally-generated estrogen levels may increase risk of post-menopausal
>> breast cancer.
>
> What - even when eating one half of grapefruit once a week?

How the heck is anyone going to know the answer to something like this?!?
<G> The article says that eating 1/4 grapefruit daily raises risk 30%.

If your risk is 1 in 1000, that makes your risk 1.3 in 1000, right? (Help
me out here, Tim - you know I'm not good at "maths"!). But you'd have to
know something about your risk in the first place even to make sense of
that. (I made up the 1 in 1000 for illustrative purposes.)

So, if the mechanism of action is an increase in estrogen levels, then maybe
eating half a grapefruit a week will raise estrogen levels temporarily. Is
that enough to increase breast cancer risk enough to care about? Who knows
.. . . ? I guess it depends on what one's personal definition of "enough to
care about" is. Seems like it would be quite a small increase, but there
just isn't enough data to know.

Personally, I don't have a passionate attachment to grapefruit (though I
like them in a generic sort of way & used to eat them maybe two or three
times a week in winter, in episodes). Because I don't feel there's any
loss of quality of life associated with giving up grapefruit, and there
might be some increase in risk of BC (and weird drug interactions), I'd be
on the "stop eating them regularly" side of the question. Others would
weigh the benefits & risks differently. It's all a personal decision,
especially with these early studies with basic & unconfirmed results.

Even eating them regularly isn't a death sentence or anything - it's all
just a shift in statistics.

If I see some yummy grapefruit-containing salad on a restaurant menu, I
still might order it . . . I just wouldn't live on it routinely.

>> Personally, I'd already backed way off grapefruit after reading about
>> CYP3A4 inhibition, even though I'm not now taking any drugs it increases
>> risks with. *Totally* speculating, it seems reasonable to guess that if
>> you're taking an estrogen agonist/antagonist (Tamoxifen, Arimidex, etc.,
>> etc.), you'd have manufactured less estrogen in the first place, giving
>> the grapefruit less scope to cause problems.
>
> I'm still (at 68) producing a lot of oestrogen - which does have some
> advantages - but I can't believe that half a grapefruit on (most) Sundays
> would affect this ...

IF the reported research is correct (a big "if"), then it seems like the
weekly half-grapefruit *might* temporarily elevate estrogen metabolism.
The real question is whether that measurably raises BC risk.
....
>>
<material deletions>

> Is snake oil an anti-oxidant as well as everything else?
>
> :-)

So say the sellers, I'll bet! ;-)

I love grapefruit and I'm not giving it up!

First of all, no one is saying that grapefruit *contains* estrogen. The
article said it increases estrogen production. Well, I'm taking Arimidex,
which *prevents* my body from converting androstenedione into estrone (which
would otherwise be further converted into estrogen). So obviously the
Arimidex will counteract whatever it is the grapefruit is doing.

That's my story and I'll stick to it.

Furthermore, over the past 25 years or so I have given up hard liquor,
tobacco, drugs, promiscuity, and delicious but unhealthy foods too numerous
to mention. I drew the line at coffee, and goddamnit, I draw the line at
grapefruit.

Eva

"Eva" <EvaDStructionNOT@NOTverizon.net> wrote in message
news:_3yni.6675$Wh4.4165@trndny06...
>
> I love grapefruit and I'm not giving it up!
>

Which also makes perfect sense to me . . . if you love it, it changes the
whole benefit side of the equation. Go for it! <grin>

If I did everything that would reduce my risk of recurrence, it would
include doing some stuff that I'd consider No Darn Fun, too. Not worth it.

Ann T.
Remove 'dontsendspam' from address to reply by email

A.P. Thorsen wrote:
> "Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:469e6283$0$30776$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet. net...
>> "A.P. Thorsen" <annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:f7lg1q$oop$1@news.msu.edu...
> ....
>>> This article seems to be saying that the same compounds in grapefruit may
>>> also increase effective levels of naturally-generated estrogen in the
>>> body. (Our bodies keep manufacturing estrogen after menopause, in fat
>>> cells and other organs, even though the ovaries have stopped
>>> manufacturing estrogen. ) It seems that that increase in
>>> naturally-generated estrogen levels may increase risk of post-menopausal
>>> breast cancer.
>> What - even when eating one half of grapefruit once a week?
>
> How the heck is anyone going to know the answer to something like this?!?
> <G> The article says that eating 1/4 grapefruit daily raises risk 30%.
>
> If your risk is 1 in 1000, that makes your risk 1.3 in 1000, right? (Help
> me out here, Tim - you know I'm not good at "maths"!). But you'd have to
> know something about your risk in the first place even to make sense of
> that. (I made up the 1 in 1000 for illustrative purposes.)
>
> So, if the mechanism of action is an increase in estrogen levels, then maybe
> eating half a grapefruit a week will raise estrogen levels temporarily. Is
> that enough to increase breast cancer risk enough to care about? Who knows
> . . . ? I guess it depends on what one's personal definition of "enough to
> care about" is. Seems like it would be quite a small increase, but there
> just isn't enough data to know.
>

Yes, I'll concur with that analysis. I once had a letter read out to
the nation on the BBC to the effect that hanging was too good for
journalists who reported a difference in risk as a percentage. Alone it
is completely meaningless: it needs additional information to make any
sense.

However it seems that the overall incidence of bc in the group was 3.6%.
That means that if the theory is true, out of every 100 women in this
population, one got cancer due to eating grapefruit and two got it for
other reasons.

BUT most articles failed to mention (didn't understand?) the reported
95% confidence interval of 6%-58%. That is rather weak. It means that
there is a 1 in 20 chance that the relative risk could actually be as
low as 6% (i.e. one woman in 500 getting cancer due to grapefruit) or as
high as 58% ( 1 in 50). This is because the number of women actually
contributing to the result was rather small, OK the study was of over
50,000 postmenopausal women, but of this group the number that ate a lot
of grapefruit AND got cancer was only around 100.

Another way to explain that is that if you ran a similar study 20 times,
you would expect one time the result to be as low as 6% and another time
it to be as high as 58%. And of course there is some possibility that
the true value lies even further from this result. Even if there was
actually no effect at all you would expect maybe one study in 30 to show
a result like this.

As a measure of what constitutes a high intake, their highest
classification was an average of a quarter fruit or more every day.

It is also not clear whether the researchers controlled for known risk
factors, for example a high proportion of high-grapefruit eaters may be
those who are overweight and following a calorie controlled diet, who
would be at elevated risk anyway.

The underlying theory that prompted the study is that grapefruit
contains compounds that inhibit the destruction of estrogen. This would
imply that patients taking aromatase inhibitors should have no increase
in risk from eating grapefruit.

Incidentally, "breast cancer are not the only fruit". If cutting out
grapefruit meant cutting down on overall fruit consumption it could have
other negative consequences. For example grapefruit (and other fruit
that makes the body alkaline) is probably good for bone density.

In conclusion this is not a "cut out grapefruit" result, this is a "more
study needed" result, but the cautious might want to keep their
consumption down around the half a fruit a week level in the meantime,
especially if they are overweight.


Tim Jackson

"A.P. Thorsen" <annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f7lsd1$3es$1@news.msu.edu...
> "Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:469e6283$0$30776$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet. net...
>>
>> "A.P. Thorsen" <annthorsendontsendspam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:f7lg1q$oop$1@news.msu.edu...
> ....
>>> This article seems to be saying that the same compounds in grapefruit
>>> may also increase effective levels of naturally-generated estrogen in
>>> the body. (Our bodies keep manufacturing estrogen after menopause, in
>>> fat cells and other organs, even though the ovaries have stopped
>>> manufacturing estrogen. ) It seems that that increase in
>>> naturally-generated estrogen levels may increase risk of post-menopausal
>>> breast cancer.
>>
>> What - even when eating one half of grapefruit once a week?
>
> How the heck is anyone going to know the answer to something like this?!?

LOL!

> <G> The article says that eating 1/4 grapefruit daily raises risk 30%.
>
> If your risk is 1 in 1000, that makes your risk 1.3 in 1000, right? (Help
> me out here, Tim - you know I'm not good at "maths"!). But you'd have to
> know something about your risk in the first place even to make sense of
> that. (I made up the 1 in 1000 for illustrative purposes.)

I didn't understand it anyway - I bet my maths is worse than yours. Half a
grapefruit a week has obviously affected my reasoning power :-)
>
> So, if the mechanism of action is an increase in estrogen levels, then
> maybe eating half a grapefruit a week will raise estrogen levels
> temporarily. Is that enough to increase breast cancer risk enough to
> care about? Who knows . . . ? I guess it depends on what one's personal
> definition of "enough to care about" is. Seems like it would be quite a
> small increase, but there just isn't enough data to know.

Waaaaaaaaaghhhhhhhhhhhh ...............
>
> Personally, I don't have a passionate attachment to grapefruit (though I
> like them in a generic sort of way & used to eat them maybe two or three
> times a week in winter, in episodes). Because I don't feel there's any
> loss of quality of life associated with giving up grapefruit, and there
> might be some increase in risk of BC (and weird drug interactions), I'd be
> on the "stop eating them regularly" side of the question. Others would
> weigh the benefits & risks differently. It's all a personal decision,
> especially with these early studies with basic & unconfirmed results.

Yes.
>
....
>>
>> I'm still (at 68) producing a lot of oestrogen - which does have some
>> advantages - but I can't believe that half a grapefruit on (most) Sundays
>> would affect this ...
>
> IF the reported research is correct (a big "if"), then it seems like the
> weekly half-grapefruit *might* temporarily elevate estrogen metabolism.
> The real question is whether that measurably raises BC risk.

Well ... I bet the butter I eat has a bigger effect. And the cheese. The
wine has different but just as undesirable effects.

But I enjoy myself :-)
>...
>
>> Is snake oil an anti-oxidant as well as everything else?
>>
>> :-)
>
> So say the sellers, I'll bet! ;-)

Perhaps we should substitute it. I wonder if it's a good substitute for
grapefruit ...

Mary
>
>

"Eva" <EvaDStructionNOT@NOTverizon.net> wrote in message
news:_3yni.6675$Wh4.4165@trndny06...
>
> I love grapefruit and I'm not giving it up!

Hurrah!
>
> First of all, no one is saying that grapefruit *contains* estrogen. The
> article said it increases estrogen production. Well, I'm taking Arimidex,
> which *prevents* my body from converting androstenedione into estrone
> (which
> would otherwise be further converted into estrogen). So obviously the
> Arimidex will counteract whatever it is the grapefruit is doing.
>
> That's my story and I'll stick to it.

LOL!
>
> Furthermore, over the past 25 years or so I have given up hard liquor,
> tobacco, drugs, promiscuity, and delicious but unhealthy foods too
> numerous
> to mention. I drew the line at coffee, and goddamnit, I draw the line at
> grapefruit.

You gave up promiscuity? I'm glad I didn't do promiscuity, I'm not good at
giving things up. Did tobacco but it was probably the hardest thing I did.

Mary

"Tim Jackson" <tim@tim-jackson.co.uk> wrote in message
news:469f2360$0$1593$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
>>
>
<snip excellent stuff>
>
> In conclusion this is not a "cut out grapefruit" result, this is a "more
> study needed" result, but the cautious might want to keep their
> consumption down around the half a fruit a week level in the meantime,

That suits me :-)

> especially if they are overweight.

I read your text with admiration, Tim, up to the 'especially if they are
overweight' bit.

Hrumph!!!!

XMaryX
>
>
> Tim Jackson

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 12:18:02 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
<mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>"Eva" <EvaDStructionNOT@NOTverizon.net> wrote in message
>news:_3yni.6675$Wh4.4165@trndny06...
>>
>> I love grapefruit and I'm not giving it up!
>
>Hurrah!
>>
>> First of all, no one is saying that grapefruit *contains* estrogen. The
>> article said it increases estrogen production. Well, I'm taking Arimidex,
>> which *prevents* my body from converting androstenedione into estrone
>> (which
>> would otherwise be further converted into estrogen). So obviously the
>> Arimidex will counteract whatever it is the grapefruit is doing.
>>
>> That's my story and I'll stick to it.
>
>LOL!
>>
>> Furthermore, over the past 25 years or so I have given up hard liquor,
>> tobacco, drugs, promiscuity, and delicious but unhealthy foods too
>> numerous
>> to mention. I drew the line at coffee, and goddamnit, I draw the line at
>> grapefruit.
>
>You gave up promiscuity? I'm glad I didn't do promiscuity, I'm not good at
>giving things up. Did tobacco but it was probably the hardest thing I did.

I'm rapt in admiration. I didn't do promiscuity (lack of offers!) but
the only thing I've really given up has been tobacco. That was
difficult enough.

Oh! And I gave up very high heels quite a few years ago, too.
--
"It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper

<x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:87ru93l9rjnfm9t97fnf833u9b6plte7b9@4ax.com...

> >"Eva" <EvaDStructionNOT@NOTverizon.net> wrote in message
> >news:_3yni.6675$Wh4.4165@trndny06...

> >>
> >> Furthermore, over the past 25 years or so I have given up hard liquor,
> >> tobacco, drugs, promiscuity, and delicious but unhealthy foods too
> >> numerous
> >> to mention. I drew the line at coffee, and goddamnit, I draw the line
at
> >> grapefruit.
> >

>
> I'm rapt in admiration.
---------------
<blushes>
----------------
I didn't do promiscuity (lack of offers!) but
> the only thing I've really given up has been tobacco. That was
> difficult enough.
----------------
Yes, for me too. Quitting smoking (20 years ago) was harder than anything
else. Tried and failed several times; might not have succeeded in 1987 if I
hadn't been pregnant at the time.
--------------------
>
> Oh! And I gave up very high heels quite a few years ago, too.
----------------
I gave up *any* kind of dress shoes. But it wasn't something I had to
"deprive myself" of. I just couldn't stand the pain any more. I regret not
being able to wear pretty shoes any more, of course, but it wasn't a
struggle to give them up like it would be if I forswore grapefruit.

Eva

"Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:469f486e$0$1228$4c56ba96@master.news.zetnet.n et...
>
> "Eva" <EvaDStructionNOT@NOTverizon.net> wrote in message
> news:_3yni.6675$Wh4.4165@trndny06...
> >
> >
> > Furthermore, over the past 25 years or so I have given up hard liquor,
> > tobacco, drugs, promiscuity, and delicious but unhealthy foods too
> > numerous
> > to mention. I drew the line at coffee, and goddamnit, I draw the line
at
> > grapefruit.
>
> You gave up promiscuity? I'm glad I didn't do promiscuity, I'm not good at
> giving things up. Did tobacco but it was probably the hardest thing I did.
-----------------
Part of it was the AIDS epidemic, and part of it was that I began to hate
feeling out of control all the time.

I agree with you about tobacco. It was a bitch to give that up.

Eva

<x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:87ru93l9rjnfm9t97fnf833u9b6plte7b9@4ax.com...
>>>
>>> Furthermore, over the past 25 years or so I have given up hard liquor,
>>> tobacco, drugs, promiscuity, and delicious but unhealthy foods too
>>> numerous
>>> to mention. I drew the line at coffee, and goddamnit, I draw the line
>>> at
>>> grapefruit.
>>
>>You gave up promiscuity? I'm glad I didn't do promiscuity, I'm not good at
>>giving things up. Did tobacco but it was probably the hardest thing I did.
>
> I'm rapt in admiration. I didn't do promiscuity (lack of offers!)

Oh - you were boasting!

> but
> the only thing I've really given up has been tobacco. That was
> difficult enough.

Awful :-(
>
> Oh! And I gave up very high heels quite a few years ago, too.

I gave them up when I was pregnant first time round. Never really wanted to
get back into them. I only wore them for very special occasions anyway -
e.g. company dinner dances - wonder if they still have those ...

Mary

"Eva" <EvaDStructionNOT@NOTverizon.net> wrote in message
news:lkTni.6580$bP4.6571@trndny01...
>

....


>> the only thing I've really given up has been tobacco. That was
>> difficult enough.
> ----------------
> Yes, for me too. Quitting smoking (20 years ago) was harder than anything
> else. Tried and failed several times; might not have succeeded in 1987 if
> I
> hadn't been pregnant at the time.

I couldn't smoke when I was pregnant, it was the first sign for me. After
the third I didn't smoke for nine years then - oh foolish woman - took it up
again, after all I could stop at any time, couldn't I?

You know the answer to that.

I tried and tried but it wasn't until 1983 that I finally did it and that
wasn't will power - it's a long story.

But I never enjoyed smoking, I put off the first one in the day for as long
as I could, the smell of the house was awful. I always felt that If I could
give up for two days it could be permanent and it has been. Yes, I missed it
at first but the craving soon went. Now I feel sick if I smell a smoker even
without a cigarette and I hate following a smoker in the street. If a smoker
sits next to me in a waiting room I have to find another seat and I feel
awful about that but ...
> --------------------
>>
>> Oh! And I gave up very high heels quite a few years ago, too.
> ----------------
> I gave up *any* kind of dress shoes. But it wasn't something I had to
> "deprive myself" of. I just couldn't stand the pain any more. I regret
> not
> being able to wear pretty shoes any more, of course, but it wasn't a
> struggle to give them up like it would be if I forswore grapefruit.

:-)

Grapefruit junkies we are now!

Mary

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 10:26:32 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
<mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:

>I couldn't smoke when I was pregnant, it was the first sign for me.

Me too. I also couldn't stand coffee or red wine.

>After
>the third I didn't smoke for nine years then - oh foolish woman - took it up
>again, after all I could stop at any time, couldn't I?
>
>You know the answer to that.

I gave it up properly three different times. At least it really "took"
the last time!

>But I never enjoyed smoking, I put off the first one in the day for as long
>as I could, the smell of the house was awful. I always felt that If I could
>give up for two days it could be permanent and it has been. Yes, I missed it
>at first but the craving soon went. Now I feel sick if I smell a smoker even
>without a cigarette and I hate following a smoker in the street. If a smoker
>sits next to me in a waiting room I have to find another seat and I feel
>awful about that but ...

Unlike me. I really enjoyed smoking; I took to it like a ducj to water
and it never made me sick as it does so many first-time smokers. I
didn't notice a smell about the house, but then I've always had as many
windows open as possible, even in the winter.

I do notice the smell of heavy smokers, but it doesn't bother me.

I have to confess that even now, after 17 years, I still crave a
cigarette every day and I quite like the smell of fresh cigarette smoke.
--
"It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper

<x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:h021a3hqo1n6d7vg0fr3u1c65o4229fvqo@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 10:26:32 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
> <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I couldn't smoke when I was pregnant, it was the first sign for me.
>
> Me too. I also couldn't stand coffee or red wine.

I had no experience of wine in those days but coffe? Bleurch ...
>
>>After
>>the third I didn't smoke for nine years then - oh foolish woman - took it
>>up
>>again, after all I could stop at any time, couldn't I?
>>
>>You know the answer to that.

Yeah ... :-(
>
> I gave it up properly three different times. At least it really "took"
> the last time!
>
>>But I never enjoyed smoking, I put off the first one in the day for as
>>long
>>as I could, the smell of the house was awful. I always felt that If I
>>could
>>give up for two days it could be permanent and it has been. Yes, I missed
>>it
>>at first but the craving soon went. Now I feel sick if I smell a smoker
>>even
>>without a cigarette and I hate following a smoker in the street. If a
>>smoker
>>sits next to me in a waiting room I have to find another seat and I feel
>>awful about that but ...
>
> Unlike me. I really enjoyed smoking; I took to it like a ducj to water
> and it never made me sick as it does so many first-time smokers.

Apart from during pregnancy it never made me sick. I just thought it was so
sophisticated ... HAHAHA!

> I
> didn't notice a smell about the house, but then I've always had as many
> windows open as possible, even in the winter.

I bet you did smell though. I know we did, you can't help it.
>
> I do notice the smell of heavy smokers, but it doesn't bother me.
>
> I have to confess that even now, after 17 years, I still crave a
> cigarette every day and I quite like the smell of fresh cigarette smoke.

In that case you deserve more praise than I do for giving up. I can't bear
the thought :-(

Mary
> --
> "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
> Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper