ADT immediate side effects.......

On Mar 8, 8:01*pm, skeptic <ribr...@aol.com> wrote:
> As I stated in another post, I have relented and have stopped dealying
> the inevitable and am following my doctors advice to go on the
> standard casodex/lupron 1-2 punch to my pca cells.
> My question is: *I have an important vacation out of the country
> (planned a long time ago) .coming up about exactly 10 days after the
> lupron shot (preceded by 10 days of casodex)...if I follow his advice
> to start immediately. *My numbers are not good and I don't disagree
> with him.
> I am overly anxious by nature and always assume the worst (I wish i
> wasn't but i always see the cup as half empty, not half full) and
> am ...shall we say...highly anxious about "suffering" the SE of ADT
> for the first time...in another country (okay, it's the caribbean, but
> it's not the same as being home).
> For those who have had ADT2....have the SE kicked in immediately or
> was there a delay of several weeks befoe you felt anything different?
> As we know, we have heard many varying results from members of this
> group on ADT, so I know there is no one standard reaction, but I need
> to hear some anecdotal experiences so I can decide what to
> postpone...if anything.
> Thanks.

Skeptic.....understand your concern. I just started chemo and ADT. Two
years my family went to Cancun for our annual spring break and I
stayed home to have salvage radiation. We decided to go back to Cancun
before I decided my lastest treatment. Despite my risk of infection
after chemo and need to limit sun exposure etc I am not going to be
trapped by this disease. As the other guys have said it takes a while
for ADT SE's to kick in if they do. It'll be 3 weeks ago this Tues
that I started Docataxel, Eligard (Lupron) and Casodex and the minor
SE's I had were the week after were chemo related. You should be
fine.

Go enjoy your trip.

Steve Kramer wrote:
>
> Having so many of us who have faired well under ADT,

The poll of this group revealed very few in that category, and most of
those classified as "fairing fairly well" SEs that many people would
call "awful", "horrible", or "devastating".

> I cannot understand the
> penchant for telling people that they really ought to consider not trying it
> at all.

I think it is reprehensible to conceal from naive people the fact that
any tx, including ADT or a heart transplant or an aspirin, is a matter
of pros and cons we should assess, instead of a medical mandate. It
would be *literally* criminal if a doctor did that with something
serious.

> I am extremely sorry about the phrase "choosing death" who whatever
it was I
> said. I meant only the choosing of quality over risk of quantity and I
> always intend to be sincerely complimentary when doing so. I place bravery
> as one of the highest traits to which one can aspire and that decision
> surely qualifies.

Yet you say nothing when Heather repeatedly -- EVEN THOUGH HER HUSBAND
DID EXACTLY THAT -- attributes it to cowardice? I don't get it.

> Even when one swears to not let
> the bastard grind him down, sometimes he must avert his attention and
> efforts in another direction in the interest of his family and love ones.

A major part of why I rejected ADT and why I am actively and formally
promoting a "Death With Dignity" law in my state. I am not doing my part
if I let this disease make her life any worse than it has to.

I.P.

Steve Kramer wrote:
>
> Having so many of us who have faired well under ADT,

The poll of this group revealed very few in that category, and most of
those classified as "fairing fairly well" admitted to SEs that many
people would call "awful", "horrible", or "devastating".

> I cannot understand the
> penchant for telling people that they really ought to consider not trying it
> at all.

I think it is reprehensible to conceal from naive people the fact that
any tax, including ADT or a heart transplant or an aspirin, is a matter
of pros and cons we should assess, instead of a medical mandate. It
would be *literally* criminal if a doctor did that with something
serious.

> I am extremely sorry about the phrase "choosing death" who whatever
it was I
> said. I meant only the choosing of quality over risk of quantity and I
> always intend to be sincerely complimentary when doing so. I place bravery
> as one of the highest traits to which one can aspire and that decision
> surely qualifies.

Yet you say nothing when Heather repeatedly -- EVEN THOUGH HER HUSBAND
DID EXACTLY THAT -- attributes my ADT rejection to cowardice? I don't
get it.

> Even when one swears to not let
> the bastard grind him down, sometimes he must avert his attention and
> efforts in another direction in the interest of his family and love ones.

A major part of why I rejected ADT and why I am actively and formally
promoting a "Death With Dignity" law in my state. I am not doing my part
if I let this disease make her life any worse than it has to.

I.P.

Steve Kramer wrote:
>
> Having so many of us who have faired well under ADT,

The poll of this group revealed very few in that category, and most of
those classified as "fairing fairly well" admitted to SEs that many
people would call "awful", "horrible", or "devastating".

> I cannot understand the
> penchant for telling people that they really ought to consider not trying it
> at all.

I think it is reprehensible to conceal from naive people the fact that
any tx, including ADT or a heart transplant or an aspirin, is a matter
of pros and cons we should assess, instead of a medical mandate. It
would be *literally* criminal if a doctor did that with something
serious.

> I am extremely sorry about the phrase "choosing death" who whatever
it was I
> said. I meant only the choosing of quality over risk of quantity and I
> always intend to be sincerely complimentary when doing so. I place bravery
> as one of the highest traits to which one can aspire and that decision
> surely qualifies.

Yet you say nothing when Heather repeatedly -- EVEN THOUGH HER HUSBAND
DID EXACTLY THAT -- attributes my ADT rejection to cowardice? I don't
get it.

> Even when one swears to not let
> the bastard grind him down, sometimes he must avert his attention and
> efforts in another direction in the interest of his family and love ones.

A major part of why I rejected ADT and why I am actively and formally
promoting a "Death With Dignity" law in my state. I am not doing my part
if I let this disease make her life any worse than it has to.

I.P.

Steve Jordan wrote:

> (1) I note with a smile that the Great Critic of Ad Hominem argument is
> using that very tactic.

Where?
(You're welcome to search back for a year or two if you can't find an
example in this thread.)

> (2) I note with a shrug that he persists in failure to prove his claims
> of thousands -- or is it tens of thousands? -- of ADT horror stories.
> Not a scintilla of evidence

Strum. Walsh. Harvard. Stolz. Scardino. Lange.
et cetera
et cetera
et cetera
Every one of the many studies I referenced when I brought this subject
up three years ago.
It's real easy. Your guru says the odds of some of the SEs run in the
range of 0.6 to 0.9. His partner Stolz puts the odds of one of its worst
SEs at virtually 1.0. Multiply any of those odds by the number of people
on ADT.
Now tell us that ADT SEs are not very numerous and often very serious.

> (3) I note with disgust that he alleges that some famous PCa medic
> announced that he stopped ADT because he just couldn't stand the SEs,
> but as usual he can't/won't identify who that is, when and where it
> happened, and where supportive evidence can be found.

I'm not going to to dig up the man's name, the date, the symposium, and
the weather ever time you demand it. Once or twice was enough.

I.P.

Thank you to the very few that actually answered my question.
The rest of the arguing I could do without.
I will be careful what I post in the future...if anything.

skeptic wrote:
> Thank you to the very few that actually answered my question.
> The rest of the arguing I could do without.
> I will be careful what I post in the future...if anything.

Skep, almost everyone here contributed to your answer, as you shall see.

Arguing is unavoidable in a serious topic so replete with conflicting
data and conflicting professional opinions. If this stuff were cut and
dried, we'd just publish a FAQ, offer a list of homilies like "You'll be
fine" and "Just ask your doctor", and go home. Since it's not, it's in
the debates that questioners learn, because only there can they see all
the many facts, opinions, rationale, pros, cons, benefits and side
effects which are a necessary -- but insufficient -- requirement for
making informed decisions. The other necessary part is his own list of
prioritized treatment outcome criteria. There are 2432902008176640000
ways to prioritize the 20 or so potential SEs of ADT, so very few men
would prioritize them in the same order. Compound that by their
uncertainty, their individual mitigation possibilities, the bull so many
physicians and patients feed us about them, the emotions involved, and
the different personalities involved, and you are unlikely to get a calm
discussion of any length about ADT.

Heck, if you had come here before the winter of '04-'05, when I was
forced to make an ADT choice and found virtually no frank discussion of
it here, you'd have found ... ta daaaa ... virtually no frank discussion
of it here. Most people here still have a hard time doing so, as you can
see. They want to just tiptoe through the tulips in the interest of
peaceful coexistence, even when newbies ask for honest information. Even
our most adamant ADT SE dismisser has to be pressed hard to admit that
just ONE of his SEs is having to spend fully half his life in bed ...
and that's NOT having sex.

Thus when I see people presenting ADT predictions significantly
departing from the literature, from the ADT SE poll of this forum, from
my own exhaustive ADT analysis approved by this forum and by a teaching
hospital oncology board, and from their written description of their own
SEs, I speak up.

Then everybody chimes in with their opinions, and the newbie gets
covered in the ensuing debris. If you need neater answers, you'll need a
neater cancer. Unfortunately, many of those kill us MUCH more quickly.

As you now see, only those more worried about me than about your dilemma
failed to contribute to YOUR answer to your question. I emphasize "YOUR"
because we can't answer your question for you.

I.P.

"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:n40Bj.47$Uo.41@newsfe05.lga...


> The poll of this group revealed very few in that category, and most of
> those classified as "fairing fairly well" SEs that many people would call
> "awful", "horrible", or "devastating".

I suppose you could say that most, maybe even all, consider the SEs awful,
given the difference between normal and what we live with today. To you,
the personally uninitiated, they are certainly awful. No libido, fatigue,
breasts, shrinkage, joint pain, hair loss to the body, emotions, and on and
on. But, we are fairing fairly well despite the awful SEs. We work, have
fun with grandchildren, and manage to live otherwise normal lives. I
suspect those in your horrible category are the ones who stop ADT, knowing
they will go on it again. I suspect those in your devastating category are
those extremely few people who cannot ever attempt it again. You will note,
however, that a huge majority of people stay with ADT or go back on it when
their PSA dictates.


> I think it is reprehensible to conceal from naive people the fact that any
> tx, including ADT or a heart transplant or an aspirin, is a matter of pros
> and cons we should assess, instead of a medical mandate. It would be
> *literally* criminal if a doctor did that with something serious.

You cannot be serious. First, I've never done that. Second, doctors do it
all the time.


> > I am extremely sorry about the phrase "choosing death" who whatever it
> was I
>> said. I meant only the choosing of quality over risk of quantity and I
>> always intend to be sincerely complimentary when doing so. I place
>> bravery as one of the highest traits to which one can aspire and that
>> decision surely qualifies.
>
> Yet you say nothing when Heather repeatedly -- EVEN THOUGH HER HUSBAND DID
> EXACTLY THAT -- attributes it to cowardice? I don't get it.

What!?

Okay, let's say she did. I defended her when you purposely readacted from
her quote. I defended you when she told you to leave. I suspect she
believes her husband chose to stop ADT out of bravery and that you fear ADT
out of cowardice. But, to be honest with you. I don't read much of
Heather's prose when she gets off the topic of cancer; anymore than I read
all of your prose when attacking her or Jordan or Jordan's when he's
attacking you. And, I fully expect that most of the readers haven't gotten
this far in my discussion with you.

In any case, don't hold me accountable to what anyone else says.

On Sun, 09 Mar 2008 20:50:36 -0700, "I.P. Freely"
<fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote:


>Then everybody chimes in with their opinions, and the newbie gets
>covered in the ensuing debris. If you need neater answers, you'll need a
>neater cancer. Unfortunately, many of those kill us MUCH more quickly.
>
>As you now see, only those more worried about me than about your dilemma
>failed to contribute to YOUR answer to your question. I emphasize "YOUR"
>because we can't answer your question for you.
>
>I.P.


Hi I.P.!

I may not agree with you sometimes, but I always like your logic.

You are a great contributor to this forum. Thanks for your effort.

Just

On Mar 8, 8:01 pm, skeptic <ribr...@aol.com> wrote:
> As I stated in another post, I have relented and have stopped dealying
> the inevitable and am following my doctors advice to go on the
> standard casodex/lupron 1-2 punch to my pca cells.
> My question is: I have an important vacation out of the country
> (planned a long time ago) .coming up about exactly 10 days after the
> lupron shot (preceded by 10 days of casodex)...if I follow his advice
> to start immediately. My numbers are not good and I don't disagree
> with him.
> I am overly anxious by nature and always assume the worst (I wish i
> wasn't but i always see the cup as half empty, not half full) and
> am ...shall we say...highly anxious about "suffering" the SE of ADT
> for the first time...in another country (okay, it's the caribbean, but
> it's not the same as being home).
> For those who have had ADT2....have the SE kicked in immediately or
> was there a delay of several weeks befoe you felt anything different?
> As we know, we have heard many varying results from members of this
> group on ADT, so I know there is no one standard reaction, but I need
> to hear some anecdotal experiences so I can decide what to
> postpone...if anything.
> Thanks.

When you start Casodex, it is not known to have side effects - it just
prevents the testosterone from reaching the prostate cells (including
the cancer) so your blood testosterone will rise and so will the
blocking hormone (SHBG). After the Lupron shot, your testosterone will
rise for 10 -14 days and then fall to castrate level at one month
after the injection. It took 3 months to feel the side effects. As I
was on a vegan diet at the time, it was devastating to my QOL -
increased protein intake solved that problem. The side effects became
more of a problem after a year and really bad after 18 months.

After 6 years of ADT with various agents - on and off, trying to
counter the SEs, I prepared an information sheet with countermeasures
that helped. Anyone wishing to get a copy in PDF format, please drop
me a personal email.

Hope this helps.
Lud

On March 10, Lud responded to "skeptic":

> When you start Casodex, it is not known to have side effects

I think Lud is a bit optimistic. Checking Casodex (bicalutimide) on
www.rxlist.com will show a long list of SEs. Unfortunately, the SEs are
related to combined Casodex and LHRH agonist (eg Lupron).

Checking http://www.drugs.com/casodex.html does present a list of SEs
that appear related only to Casodex.

> .......... - it just
> prevents the testosterone from reaching the prostate cells (including
> the cancer) so your blood testosterone will rise and so will the
> blocking hormone (SHBG). After the Lupron shot, your testosterone will
> rise for 10 -14 days and then fall to castrate level at one month
> after the injection.

This is "clinical flare" and can be extremely dangerous, as the
increased T will enrich the nourishment of existing PCa cells, with
adverse effects that need not be explained.

It will be prevented by knowledgeable medics by use of Casodex for up to
two weeks prior to beginning the LHRH agonist. See
http://prostate-cancer.org/education...cal_Flare.html which
begins, "Clinical flare is a drug-induced bodily response that can cause
such symptoms as bone pain, compression of a nerve root, spinal cord
compression, or blockage of one or both ureters. It is often painful and
always dangerous."

Searching the PCRI site for "clinical flare" will produce 15 hits.

(snip)

> After 6 years of ADT with various agents - on and off, trying to
> counter the SEs, I prepared an information sheet with countermeasures
> that helped. Anyone wishing to get a copy in PDF format, please drop
> me a personal email.

Or one can refer to the medical information available via my post on
this group three hours ago, entitled, "Androgen Deprivation Syndrome."

HTH.

Regards,

Steve J

On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:17:06 -0700, Steve Jordan <mycroftscj1@cox.net>
wrote:


>On March 10, Lud responded to "skeptic":
>
>> When you start Casodex, it is not known to have side effects
>
>I think Lud is a bit optimistic. Checking Casodex (bicalutimide) on
>www.rxlist.com will show a long list of SEs. Unfortunately, the SEs are
>related to combined Casodex and LHRH agonist (eg Lupron).
>

If Lud meant that there are no immediate side effects from Casodex, my
experience would support that. If he really means there are no known
side effects, my experience would definitely contradict that. For
me, taking Casodex alone, the side effects became very damaging to my
quality of life over a period of 6 - 10 months. As someone else said,
they sneak up on you. I didn't realize how bad it really was until
after I stopped taking Casodex and started feeling better - again over
a few months.

As Steve J. pointed out, the published side effects are only for
Casodex (bicalutamide) when combined with another drug. But, my
experience is that no other drugs are necessary for Casodex to have
plenty of side effects all by itself. But, all of us are different
and can expect our side effects to be different, both in nature and
severity. The only way to know is to try it. If it works and the
side effects are tolerable, fine. If the side effects are not
tolerable, one can always quit taking it.

Burney

On March 10, BH replied to me:

> As Steve J. pointed out, the published side effects are only for
> Casodex (bicalutamide) when combined with another drug. But, my
> experience is that no other drugs are necessary for Casodex to have
> plenty of side effects all by itself.

Perhaps Burney overlooked the paragraph in my post.

Regards,

Steve J

Correction.

I wrote:

> On March 10, BH replied to me:
>
>> As Steve J. pointed out, the published side effects are only for
>> Casodex (bicalutamide) when combined with another drug. But, my
>> experience is that no other drugs are necessary for Casodex to have
>> plenty of side effects all by itself.
>
> Perhaps Burney overlooked the paragraph in my post.

I should have written: Perhaps Burney overlooked the NEXT paragraph in
my post.

Steve J

Steve Kramer wrote:
> We work, have
> fun with grandchildren, and manage to live otherwise normal lives.

Many do not, so I must presume that's an editorial "we". As such, I
think it would be more informative if it were identified as such.

> I suspect those in your devastating category are
> those extremely few people who cannot ever attempt it again.

My "devastated" category includes way more than just those who abandon
it altogether.

> I.P. wrote
>> I think it is reprehensible to conceal from naive people the fact that any
>> tx, including ADT or a heart transplant or an aspirin, is a matter of pros
>> and cons we should assess, instead of a medical mandate. It would be
>> *literally* criminal if a doctor did that with something serious.
>
> You cannot be serious. First, I've never done that. Second, doctors do it
> all the time.

I -- and the law, and the Patient's Bill of Rights, and the courts -- am
deadly serious. Fortunes swap hands over doctors and drug makers who do
not warn of SEs (Google it). Do you think the drug manufacturers pay as
much as or more for publicizing their medicines' SEs as they do for for
advertising the medicines themselves out of the goodness of their
hearts? Do you think those rapid-speech SE warnings with every radio ad
for meds are there, at huge expense, for OUR benefit? Think you fill out
that loooong med hx questionnaire at the doc's office ONLY because it
helps him/her treat you?

>> Yet you say nothing when Heather repeatedly -- EVEN THOUGH HER HUSBAND DID
>> EXACTLY THAT -- attributes it to cowardice? I don't get it.
>
> What!?
> I suspect she
> believes her husband chose to stop ADT out of bravery and that you fear ADT
> out of cowardice.
> Okay, let's say she did.

We don't have to. She has posted it explicitly way too often, including
once or twice in this thread.

> I don't read much of
> Heather's prose when she gets off the topic of cancer; anymore than I read
> all of your prose when attacking her or Jordan or Jordan's when he's
> attacking you.

That explains why your comments on same are so off base. If you read my
prose, you'd know I don't attack people. That's the difference between
debate and ad hominem (aka personal attacks). Debaters -- including
myself -- rebut and/or comment on the *written message*, not the
messenger; ad hominem is a personal attack on the messenger. I think
you'd have a hard time finding 3 or 4 personal attacks from me in my
20,000+ internet postings over the last decade or more. We've seen Steve
and Heather level dozens of them just in this forum.

> In any case, don't hold me accountable to what anyone else says.

Then please stop holding me accountable for personal attacks I *didn't*
make, as you so forcefully, wrongly, and repeatedly did on June 19-21
'07.

I.P.

Just wrote:
>
> Hi I.P.!
>
> I may not agree with you sometimes

If we always agreed, one of us would be superfluous and a waste of
perfectly good air.

> but I always like your logic.

THEN HOW COULD YOU VOTE ...
Oh, never mind. ;-)

> You are a great contributor to this forum.

Uh, oh; One of us is wasting oxygen again. ;-)

> Thanks for your effort.

I appreciate that. And in light of the criticism it sometimes garners,
it took some backbone to say so out loud.

I.P.

Well, you convinced me. You will argue with your undertaker.

I'm done with it.


"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:aQkBj.78$fv3.6@newsfe02.lga...
> Steve Kramer wrote:
>> We work, have fun with grandchildren, and manage to live otherwise
>> normal lives.
>
> Many do not,


<< Balance redacted >>

On Mar 10, 5:17 pm, Steve Jordan <mycrofts...@cox.net> wrote:...
> I think Lud is a bit optimistic. Checking Casodex (bicalutimide) onwww.rxlist.comwill show a long list of SEs. Unfortunately, the SEs are
> related to combined Casodex and LHRH agonist (eg Lupron).
>
> Checkinghttp://www.drugs.com/casodex.htmldoes present a list of SEs
> that appear related only to Casodex.
>
...........
> Regards,
>
> Steve J

You are right Steve about the long list of SEs noted . Correcting my
statement, I should have said that in the support groups I have not
heard of anyone taking 50 mg Casodex have any SEs. I have taken
Casodex 50 mg for 3 years and 150 mg for 2 years - it was only the 150
mg dose that produced breast pain and growth, mitigated by Dostinex.
Casodex is used more often than the other anti-androgens as it
produces less SEs.
Lud

Lud wrote:
>
> I have not
> heard of anyone taking 50 mg Casodex have any SEs. I have taken
> Casodex 50 mg for 3 years and 150 mg for 2 years - it was only the 150
> mg dose that produced breast pain and growth

My vague recollection from three years ago is that 150 was the minimum
dosage shown by studies to be effective. Although Google may clear that
up, it quickly found claims that 150 mg is not as effective as
castration and claims (by its manufacturer) that it *is* as effective as
castration.

That's why I often refer people to Google rather than just citing a
study or two in response to questions; that way they can do their own
cherry picking, eliminate some studies inapplicable to their case,
and/or maybe find some pertinent middle ground to plant their own seeds in.

I.P.

On Mon, 10 Mar 2008 16:20:30 -0700, Steve Jordan <mycroftscj1@cox.net>
wrote:
>Correction.
>
>I wrote:
>
>> On March 10, BH replied to me:
>>
>>> As Steve J. pointed out, the published side effects are only for
>>> Casodex (bicalutamide) when combined with another drug. But, my
>>> experience is that no other drugs are necessary for Casodex to have
>>> plenty of side effects all by itself.
>>
>> Perhaps Burney overlooked the paragraph in my post.
>
>I should have written: Perhaps Burney overlooked the NEXT paragraph in
>my post.
>
>Steve J

No, Steve, I noticed. I placed my response after your post and
addressed it to Lud in an attempt to indicate that I had seen it and
was giving my experience in support. Obviously that didn't come
accross on a different monitor being read by someone else - probably
with a clearer mind. (I still have a fuzzy mind and memory problems.
I don't know if that is a SE still hanging on or just my age - or
both.) I should have just put my response after Lud's and commented
that I had seen your post. I apologize for the confusion.
RP in 1995 (age 52)
RT in 2000
ADT (Casodex) 10/06 - 8/07
Latest PSA - 0.18

burney dot huff at mindspring dot com

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 07:02:39 -0700 (PDT), Lud <LudwickP@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mar 10, 5:17 pm, Steve Jordan <mycrofts...@cox.net> wrote:...
>> I think Lud is a bit optimistic. Checking Casodex (bicalutimide) onwww.rxlist.comwill show a long list of SEs. Unfortunately, the SEs are
>> related to combined Casodex and LHRH agonist (eg Lupron).
>>
>> Checkinghttp://www.drugs.com/casodex.htmldoes present a list of SEs
>> that appear related only to Casodex.
>>
>..........
>> Regards,
>>
>> Steve J
>
>You are right Steve about the long list of SEs noted . Correcting my
>statement, I should have said that in the support groups I have not
>heard of anyone taking 50 mg Casodex have any SEs. I have taken
>Casodex 50 mg for 3 years and 150 mg for 2 years - it was only the 150
>mg dose that produced breast pain and growth, mitigated by Dostinex.
>Casodex is used more often than the other anti-androgens as it
>produces less SEs.
>Lud

I'm thinking my experience is unusual, Lud, but 50 mg of Casodex,
alone, really did me in with SEs. I took it for just over 10 months,
then stopped because of the SEs.

Burney
RP in 1995 (age 52)
RT in 2000
ADT (Casodex) 10/06 - 8/07
Latest PSA - 0.18

burney dot huff at mindspring dot com

On Mar 11, 2:23 pm, BH <ha...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 07:02:39 -0700 (PDT), Lud <Ludwi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 10, 5:17 pm, Steve Jordan <mycrofts...@cox.net> wrote:...
> >> I think Lud is a bit optimistic. Checking Casodex (bicalutimide) onwww.rxlist.comwillshow a long list of SEs. Unfortunately, the SEs are
> >> related to combined Casodex and LHRH agonist (eg Lupron).
>
> >> Checkinghttp://www.drugs.com/casodex.htmldoespresent a list of SEs
> >> that appear related only to Casodex.
>
> >..........
> >> Regards,
>
> >> Steve J
>
> >You are right Steve about the long list of SEs noted . Correcting my
> >statement, I should have said that in the support groups I have not
> >heard of anyone taking 50 mg Casodex have any SEs. I have taken
> >Casodex 50 mg for 3 years and 150 mg for 2 years - it was only the 150
> >mg dose that produced breast pain and growth, mitigated by Dostinex.
> >Casodex is used more often than the other anti-androgens as it
> >produces less SEs.
> >Lud
>
> I'm thinking my experience is unusual, Lud, but 50 mg of Casodex,
> alone, really did me in with SEs. I took it for just over 10 months,
> then stopped because of the SEs.
>
> Burney
> RP in 1995 (age 52)
> RT in 2000
> ADT (Casodex) 10/06 - 8/07
> Latest PSA - 0.18
>
> burney dot huff at mindspring dot com

I am confused, Burney - you note that you were on androgen deprivation
but you list only Casodex as a med - is this all the meds you had?

Androgen deprivation refers to suppressing the production of
testosterone by Zoladex or Lupron or castration. If you were on
Casodex alone, then it is called androgen blockade.

The studies for using Casodex alone were done using 150 mg dose. I
know one person on this regime - he started this in 1998 (before the
studies were published as he was a psychiatrist and contacted the
investigators doing the study) and I knew that it was working for him
for 3 years then I lost touch.

My second therapy was using Casodex 150 mg alone with Proscar (no
Zoladex) was for 1 year only (Mar 02 to Mar 03) later adding on
Zoladex. My experience was all positive except for breast pain and
growth (female puberty) despite radiation to the breast prior to
starting (radiation ineffectiveness has been noted by many patients).
It reduced my PSA for just over 6 months and after nadir my PSA
started to rise very slowly. At nadir, my blood tests indicated that
my testosterone level was at the top of the reference range (RR), my
DHT was above the RR (despite Proscar which did reduce my DHT by 60%
but still ended up way high), my estradiol level was above men's high
RR. Looking back on the readings several years later, I felt that the
very high DHT probably overwhelmed the Casodex blockade.

Years later, news came out that Casodex at 150 mg caused other health
problems and the studies were terminated.

Hot flashes occur when estrogen levels fall - with Casodex estrogen
levels rise - I don't understand - there must have been other
interactions occurring.

Lud



It

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:21:04 -0700 (PDT), Lud <LudwickP@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mar 11, 2:23 pm, BH <ha...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 07:02:39 -0700 (PDT), Lud <Ludwi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Mar 10, 5:17 pm, Steve Jordan <mycrofts...@cox.net> wrote:...
>> >> I think Lud is a bit optimistic. Checking Casodex (bicalutimide) onwww.rxlist.comwillshow a long list of SEs. Unfortunately, the SEs are
>> >> related to combined Casodex and LHRH agonist (eg Lupron).
>>
>> >> Checking http://www.drugs.com/casodex.html doespresent a list of SEs
>> >> that appear related only to Casodex.
>>
>> >..........
>> >> Regards,
>>
>> >> Steve J
>>
>> >You are right Steve about the long list of SEs noted . Correcting my
>> >statement, I should have said that in the support groups I have not
>> >heard of anyone taking 50 mg Casodex have any SEs. I have taken
>> >Casodex 50 mg for 3 years and 150 mg for 2 years - it was only the 150
>> >mg dose that produced breast pain and growth, mitigated by Dostinex.
>> >Casodex is used more often than the other anti-androgens as it
>> >produces less SEs.
>> >Lud
>>
>> I'm thinking my experience is unusual, Lud, but 50 mg of Casodex,
>> alone, really did me in with SEs. I took it for just over 10 months,
>> then stopped because of the SEs.
>>
>> Burney
>> RP in 1995 (age 52)
>> RT in 2000
>> ADT (Casodex) 10/06 - 8/07
>> Latest PSA - 0.18
>>
>> burney dot huff at mindspring dot com
>
>I am confused, Burney - you note that you were on androgen deprivation
>but you list only Casodex as a med - is this all the meds you had?

Yes, that's the only med I was on.
>
>Androgen deprivation refers to suppressing the production of
>testosterone by Zoladex or Lupron or castration. If you were on
>Casodex alone, then it is called androgen blockade.

I was under the impression that the term Androgen Deprivation came
from depriving the cancer cells of testosterone, and whether that was
caused by preventing the production of testosterone or blocking the
absorption of testosterone (or both), it was all "androgen
deprivation". If I have been wrong and I should be using the term
"blockage", then I'll stand corrected and use the other term. But, is
it a distinction without a difference?
>
>
>Hot flashes occur when estrogen levels fall - with Casodex estrogen
>levels rise - I don't understand - there must have been other
>interactions occurring.

You may be right about some other interaction occuring, but I don't
know what that might have been. l just know hot flashes was one of
the first side effects I noticed. They were really annoying for a
couple of months, then seemed to decrease in frequency and severity.

A problem is that side effects of Casodex are usually listed only when
it is used in combination with something like Lupron. Steve Jordan
provided a link, above, to a site that seems to include hot flashes as
a side effect of Casodex alone. But, it just says that hot flashes is
a possible side effect. It doesn't say why that can happen.

Burney

On Mar 13, 12:56 pm, BH <ha...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:21:04 -0700 (PDT), Lud <Ludwi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 11, 2:23 pm, BH <ha...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 07:02:39 -0700 (PDT), Lud <Ludwi...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >On Mar 10, 5:17 pm, Steve Jordan <mycrofts...@cox.net> wrote:...
> >> >> I think Lud is a bit optimistic. Checking Casodex (bicalutimide) onwww.rxlist.comwillshowa long list of SEs. Unfortunately, the SEs are
> >> >> related to combined Casodex and LHRH agonist (eg Lupron).
>
> >> >> Checkinghttp://www.drugs.com/casodex.htmldoespresent a list of SEs
> >> >> that appear related only to Casodex.
>
> >> >..........
> >> >> Regards,
>
> >> >> Steve J
>
> >> >You are right Steve about the long list of SEs noted . Correcting my
> >> >statement, I should have said that in the support groups I have not
> >> >heard of anyone taking 50 mg Casodex have any SEs. I have taken
> >> >Casodex 50 mg for 3 years and 150 mg for 2 years - it was only the 150
> >> >mg dose that produced breast pain and growth, mitigated by Dostinex.
> >> >Casodex is used more often than the other anti-androgens as it
> >> >produces less SEs.
> >> >Lud
>
> >> I'm thinking my experience is unusual, Lud, but 50 mg of Casodex,
> >> alone, really did me in with SEs. I took it for just over 10 months,
> >> then stopped because of the SEs.
>
> >> Burney
> >> RP in 1995 (age 52)
> >> RT in 2000
> >> ADT (Casodex) 10/06 - 8/07
> >> Latest PSA - 0.18
>
> >> burney dot huff at mindspring dot com
>
> >I am confused, Burney - you note that you were on androgen deprivation
> >but you list only Casodex as a med - is this all the meds you had?
>
> Yes, that's the only med I was on.
>
>
>
> >Androgen deprivation refers to suppressing the production of
> >testosterone by Zoladex or Lupron or castration. If you were on
> >Casodex alone, then it is called androgen blockade.
>
> I was under the impression that the term Androgen Deprivation came
> from depriving the cancer cells of testosterone, and whether that was
> caused by preventing the production of testosterone or blocking the
> absorption of testosterone (or both), it was all "androgen
> deprivation". If I have been wrong and I should be using the term
> "blockage", then I'll stand corrected and use the other term. But, is
> it a distinction without a difference?
>
>
>
> >Hot flashes occur when estrogen levels fall - with Casodex estrogen
> >levels rise - I don't understand - there must have been other
> >interactions occurring.
>
> You may be right about some other interaction occuring, but I don't
> know what that might have been. l just know hot flashes was one of
> the first side effects I noticed. They were really annoying for a
> couple of months, then seemed to decrease in frequency and severity.
>
> A problem is that side effects of Casodex are usually listed only when
> it is used in combination with something like Lupron. Steve Jordan
> provided a link, above, to a site that seems to include hot flashes as
> a side effect of Casodex alone. But, it just says that hot flashes is
> a possible side effect. It doesn't say why that can happen.
>
> Burney

Thanks for the clarification - we all seem to have our peculiar
reactions. Most of the side effects from anti-androgens that I have
heard affect the liver.

Lupron and Zoladex do create a lot of side effects that are different
from Casodex.

The most benign androgen suppression that I have used is Trans Dermal
Estradiol (TDE) therapy - using estradiol patches - the only side
effect I had was breast growth - which actually started with Casodex
150. Unfortunately it was after Zoladex had failed and TDE did no
better but I felt great (I could even out-argue my wife).

Lud

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:18:09 -0700 (PDT), Lud <LudwickP@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mar 13, 12:56 pm, BH <ha...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:21:04 -0700 (PDT), Lud <Ludwi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Mar 11, 2:23 pm, BH <ha...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 07:02:39 -0700 (PDT), Lud <Ludwi...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >On Mar 10, 5:17 pm, Steve Jordan <mycrofts...@cox.net> wrote:...
>> >> >> I think Lud is a bit optimistic. Checking Casodex (bicalutimide) onwww.rxlist.comwillshowa long list of SEs. Unfortunately, the SEs are
>> >> >> related to combined Casodex and LHRH agonist (eg Lupron).
>>
>> >> >> Checkinghttp://www.drugs.com/casodex.htmldoespresent a list of SEs
>> >> >> that appear related only to Casodex.
>>
>> >> >..........
>> >> >> Regards,
>>
>> >> >> Steve J
>>
>> >> >You are right Steve about the long list of SEs noted . Correcting my
>> >> >statement, I should have said that in the support groups I have not
>> >> >heard of anyone taking 50 mg Casodex have any SEs. I have taken
>> >> >Casodex 50 mg for 3 years and 150 mg for 2 years - it was only the 150
>> >> >mg dose that produced breast pain and growth, mitigated by Dostinex.
>> >> >Casodex is used more often than the other anti-androgens as it
>> >> >produces less SEs.
>> >> >Lud
>>
>> >> I'm thinking my experience is unusual, Lud, but 50 mg of Casodex,
>> >> alone, really did me in with SEs. I took it for just over 10 months,
>> >> then stopped because of the SEs.
>>
>> >> Burney
>> >> RP in 1995 (age 52)
>> >> RT in 2000
>> >> ADT (Casodex) 10/06 - 8/07
>> >> Latest PSA - 0.18
>>
>> >> burney dot huff at mindspring dot com
>>
>> >I am confused, Burney - you note that you were on androgen deprivation
>> >but you list only Casodex as a med - is this all the meds you had?
>>
>> Yes, that's the only med I was on.
>>
>>
>>
>> >Androgen deprivation refers to suppressing the production of
>> >testosterone by Zoladex or Lupron or castration. If you were on
>> >Casodex alone, then it is called androgen blockade.
>>
>> I was under the impression that the term Androgen Deprivation came
>> from depriving the cancer cells of testosterone, and whether that was
>> caused by preventing the production of testosterone or blocking the
>> absorption of testosterone (or both), it was all "androgen
>> deprivation". If I have been wrong and I should be using the term
>> "blockage", then I'll stand corrected and use the other term. But, is
>> it a distinction without a difference?
>>
>>
>>
>> >Hot flashes occur when estrogen levels fall - with Casodex estrogen
>> >levels rise - I don't understand - there must have been other
>> >interactions occurring.
>>
>> You may be right about some other interaction occuring, but I don't
>> know what that might have been. l just know hot flashes was one of
>> the first side effects I noticed. They were really annoying for a
>> couple of months, then seemed to decrease in frequency and severity.
>>
>> A problem is that side effects of Casodex are usually listed only when
>> it is used in combination with something like Lupron. Steve Jordan
>> provided a link, above, to a site that seems to include hot flashes as
>> a side effect of Casodex alone. But, it just says that hot flashes is
>> a possible side effect. It doesn't say why that can happen.
>>
>> Burney
>
>Thanks for the clarification - we all seem to have our peculiar
>reactions. Most of the side effects from anti-androgens that I have
>heard affect the liver.

My potassium and creatinin levels have remained about the same. As
you say, we all seem to react differently.
>
>Lupron and Zoladex do create a lot of side effects that are different
>from Casodex.

That may be, but on 50 mg of Casodex alone I had about all the side
effects, in good measure I think, that are commonly listed for Casodex
in combination with Lupron or similar. All of them combined to make
life pretty discouraging.
>
>The most benign androgen suppression that I have used is Trans Dermal
>Estradiol (TDE) therapy - using estradiol patches - the only side
>effect I had was breast growth - which actually started with Casodex
>150. Unfortunately it was after Zoladex had failed and TDE did no
>better but I felt great (I could even out-argue my wife).

Now, THAT's an accomplishment worth waiting for! ;-)

All the best to you, Lud.

Burney
>
>Lud
RP in 1995 (age 52)
RT in 2000
ADT (Casodex) 10/06 - 8/07
Latest PSA - 0.18

burney dot huff at mindspring dot com

Steve Jordan wrote:
> I'm gonna toss a grenade or two, having watched the flamewar for a few
> days.
>
> (1) I note with a smile that the Great Critic of Ad Hominem argument is
> using that very tactic.

This of course is about "IP Freely", who with his fellow war criminal
friends killed thousands of innocent Vietnamese women and children in
the My Lai massacre exactly 40 years ago and got away with it. No
Nuernberg trial for Freely. But his god did punish him with lots of evil
diseases and treatments with terrible side effects imposed on him by
doctors that hate his guts. Justice after all.
>
> (2) I note with a shrug that he persists in failure to prove his claims
> of thousands -- or is it tens of thousands? -- of ADT horror stories.
> Not a scintilla of evidence, not a hint of a clinical study. He
> probably, as is his record, expects one who disagrees to do the heavy
> lifting of research, not realizing that that is not the way it works.
> It's the burden of him who makes an assertion to document it.

Which is why his doctors have marked him an obnoxious patient.
>
> Frex: The rooster's crow causes the sunrise. Now, it's my duty to prove it.
>
> (3) I note with disgust that he alleges that some famous PCa medic
> announced that he stopped ADT because he just couldn't stand the SEs,
> but as usual he can't/won't identify who that is, when and where it
> happened, and where supportive evidence can be found.
>
> (4) And I note with a yawn that he still claims to have documented his
> allegations, notwithstanding that it is clear that he has not. Where is
> the evidence? Where is the proof? Where?

Freely doesn't know the difference between fact and fiction. Maybe it's
his old age. Incontinent and incompetent.
>
> Well, I've indulged my impatience, for which I apologize to almost
> everyone. I'll now leave the subject.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve J

safire wrote:
> Steve Jordan wrote:
>> I'm gonna toss a grenade or two, having watched the flamewar for a few
>> days.
>>
>> (1) I note with a smile that the Great Critic of Ad Hominem argument
>> is using that very tactic.
>
> This of course is about "IP Freely", who with his fellow war criminal
> friends killed thousands of innocent Vietnamese women and children in
> the My Lai massacre exactly 40 years ago and got away with it. No
> Nuernberg trial for Freely. But his god did punish him with lots of evil
> diseases and treatments with terrible side effects imposed on him by
> doctors that hate his guts. Justice after all.

Yeah, ok, plonk.

"doofy" <nope@would.nt.be.prudent> wrote in message
news:47e41e94$0$84184$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> safire wrote:
>> Steve Jordan wrote:
>>> I'm gonna toss a grenade or two, having watched the flamewar for a few
>>> days.
>>>
>>> (1) I note with a smile that the Great Critic of Ad Hominem argument is
>>> using that very tactic.
>>
>> This of course is about "IP Freely", who with his fellow war criminal
>> friends killed thousands of innocent Vietnamese women and children in the
>> My Lai massacre exactly 40 years ago and got away with it. No Nuernberg
>> trial for Freely. But his god did punish him with lots of evil diseases
>> and treatments with terrible side effects imposed on him by doctors that
>> hate his guts. Justice after all.
>
> Yeah, ok, plonk..

Holy cow!!! 2 hours and 15 minutes!! An ASCP record!