ADT immediate side effects.......

As I stated in another post, I have relented and have stopped dealying
the inevitable and am following my doctors advice to go on the
standard casodex/lupron 1-2 punch to my pca cells.
My question is: I have an important vacation out of the country
(planned a long time ago) .coming up about exactly 10 days after the
lupron shot (preceded by 10 days of casodex)...if I follow his advice
to start immediately. My numbers are not good and I don't disagree
with him.
I am overly anxious by nature and always assume the worst (I wish i
wasn't but i always see the cup as half empty, not half full) and
am ...shall we say...highly anxious about "suffering" the SE of ADT
for the first time...in another country (okay, it's the caribbean, but
it's not the same as being home).
For those who have had ADT2....have the SE kicked in immediately or
was there a delay of several weeks befoe you felt anything different?
As we know, we have heard many varying results from members of this
group on ADT, so I know there is no one standard reaction, but I need
to hear some anecdotal experiences so I can decide what to
postpone...if anything.
Thanks.

Hi Skeptic......for what it is worth, Ron (my husband) went on Casodex
and then Zoladex and the side effects didn't really kick in for SEVEN
MONTHS!!

Granted, I believe it is usually 3 months, but don't worry about it. I
pay no attention to IP who goes on about the *dreaded side effects* for
the simple reason that if there is no other choice, then what??

Ron knows that he may have to go back on it if his PSA rises above 2.0,
and he accepts that. He does see the glass as half full, I suppose.
But not going back on it would be rather stupid, imo.

Please stop worrying yourself to death and just follow what your doctor
suggests. You may be like Steve K and have minimal SE's. I have a
theory on why, but he would smack me for that one, LOL!!

All the best and I envy you your Caribbean holiday......it is
*blizzarding* AGAIN here in Toronto.....30 cm today (foot?....hate
metric).

Heather

"skeptic" <ribrass@aol.com> wrote in message
news:5832181d-3330-4d2d-84f5-72290f504f4d@m34g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> As I stated in another post, I have relented and have stopped dealying
> the inevitable and am following my doctors advice to go on the
> standard casodex/lupron 1-2 punch to my pca cells.
> My question is: I have an important vacation out of the country
> (planned a long time ago) .coming up about exactly 10 days after the
> lupron shot (preceded by 10 days of casodex)...if I follow his advice
> to start immediately. My numbers are not good and I don't disagree
> with him.
> I am overly anxious by nature and always assume the worst (I wish i
> wasn't but i always see the cup as half empty, not half full) and
> am ...shall we say...highly anxious about "suffering" the SE of ADT
> for the first time...in another country (okay, it's the caribbean, but
> it's not the same as being home).
> For those who have had ADT2....have the SE kicked in immediately or
> was there a delay of several weeks befoe you felt anything different?
> As we know, we have heard many varying results from members of this
> group on ADT, so I know there is no one standard reaction, but I need
> to hear some anecdotal experiences so I can decide what to
> postpone...if anything.
> Thanks.

On Mar 8, 8:38�pm, "Heather" <no....@home.invalid> wrote:
> Hi Skeptic......for what it is worth, Ron (my husband) went on Casodex
> and then Zoladex and the side effects didn't really kick in for SEVEN
> MONTHS!!
>
> Granted, I believe it is usually 3 months, but don't worry about it. �I
> pay no attention to IP who goes on about the *dreaded side effects* for
> the simple reason that if there is no other choice, then what??
>
> Ron knows that he may have to go back on it if his PSA rises above 2.0,
> and he accepts that. �He does see the glass as half full, I suppose.
> But not going back on it would be rather stupid, imo.
>
> Please stop worrying yourself to death and just follow what your doctor
> suggests. �You may be like Steve K and have minimal SE's. �I have a
> theory on why, but he would smack me for that one, LOL!!
>
> All the best and I envy you your Caribbean holiday......it is
> *blizzarding* AGAIN here in Toronto.....30 cm today (foot?....hate
> metric).
>
> Heather
>
> "skeptic" <ribr...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:5832181d-3330-4d2d-84f5-72290f504f4d@m34g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > As I stated in another post, I have relented and have stopped dealying
> > the inevitable and am following my doctors advice to go on the
> > standard casodex/lupron 1-2 punch to my pca cells.
> > My question is: �I have an important vacation out of the country
> > (planned a long time ago) .coming up about exactly 10 days after the
> > lupron shot (preceded by 10 days of casodex)...if I follow his advice
> > to start immediately. �My numbers are not good and I don't disagree
> > with him.
> > I am overly anxious by nature and always assume the worst (I wish i
> > wasn't but i always see the cup as half empty, not half full) and
> > am ...shall we say...highly anxious about "suffering" the SE of ADT
> > for the first time...in another country (okay, it's the caribbean, but
> > it's not the same as being home).
> > For those who have had ADT2....have the SE kicked in immediately or
> > was there a delay of several weeks befoe you felt anything different?
> > As we know, we have heard many varying results from members of this
> > group on ADT, so I know there is no one standard reaction, but I need
> > to hear some anecdotal experiences so I can decide what to
> > postpone...if anything.
> > Thanks.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"30 cm today (foot?....hate metric)."

Heather just divide by 2.54 and you will have the equivalent in
inches, which is almost exactly 12". Blah to that snow!
Thanks for responding....7 months without side effects is very
encouraging.

Penis envy...ADT SE's envy.....

No big deal.

Gourd Dancer


"skeptic" <ribrass@aol.com> wrote in message
news:5832181d-3330-4d2d-84f5-72290f504f4d@m34g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> As I stated in another post, I have relented and have stopped dealying
> the inevitable and am following my doctors advice to go on the
> standard casodex/lupron 1-2 punch to my pca cells.
> My question is: I have an important vacation out of the country
> (planned a long time ago) .coming up about exactly 10 days after the
> lupron shot (preceded by 10 days of casodex)...if I follow his advice
> to start immediately. My numbers are not good and I don't disagree
> with him.
> I am overly anxious by nature and always assume the worst (I wish i
> wasn't but i always see the cup as half empty, not half full) and
> am ...shall we say...highly anxious about "suffering" the SE of ADT
> for the first time...in another country (okay, it's the caribbean, but
> it's not the same as being home).
> For those who have had ADT2....have the SE kicked in immediately or
> was there a delay of several weeks befoe you felt anything different?
> As we know, we have heard many varying results from members of this
> group on ADT, so I know there is no one standard reaction, but I need
> to hear some anecdotal experiences so I can decide what to
> postpone...if anything.
> Thanks.

Heather wrote:

> pay no attention to IP who goes on about the *dreaded side effects*

That's criminally inexcusable and irresponsible advice, considering that
I merely parrot the mainstream literature.

I.P.

"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:_pKAj.106$tI4.50@newsfe05.lga...
> Heather wrote:
>
>> pay no attention to IP who goes on about the *dreaded side effects*
>
> That's criminally inexcusable and irresponsible advice, considering
> that I merely parrot the mainstream literature.<<<
>
I figured you would come out acussin' and afightin, lol. *Criminally
irresponsible"...I think not!!

You missed one very important word......the word "eye" or "I". I said
EYE pay no attention to you for 2 or 3 reasons.

One being you have no first hand knowledge of ADT's side effects. And
all the studies in the world aren't worth an ounce of goose pee compared
to a real life experience. Another is that Ron had no choice but to go
on it due to a soaring PSA. The alternative was not very appealing.

So let's agree to disagree. As Steve K said, and I have also said, you
scare the hell out of newbies with your anti-ADT horror stories. Steve
seems to do rather well on it, as do several others. And as I said
above, when there is no other choice, just suck it up, OK??

Wife of one who has BTDT.

Heather wrote:
> "I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
> news:_pKAj.106$tI4.50@newsfe05.lga...
>> Heather wrote:
>>
>>> pay no attention to IP who goes on about the *dreaded side effects*
>> That's criminally inexcusable and irresponsible advice, considering
>> that I merely parrot the mainstream literature.<<<
>>
> I figured you would come out acussin' and afightin, lol. *Criminally
> irresponsible"...I think not!!
>
> You missed one very important word......the word "eye" or "I". I said
> EYE pay no attention to you for 2 or 3 reasons.
>
> One being you have no first hand knowledge of ADT's side effects. And
> all the studies in the world aren't worth an ounce of goose pee compared
> to a real life experience. Another is that Ron had no choice but to go
> on it due to a soaring PSA. The alternative was not very appealing.
>
> So let's agree to disagree. As Steve K said, and I have also said, you
> scare the hell out of newbies with your anti-ADT horror stories. Steve
> seems to do rather well on it, as do several others. And as I said
> above, when there is no other choice, just suck it up, OK??
>
> Wife of one who has BTDT.
>
>
Oops. So sorry, and I apologize. I had forgotten you're the one who
actually believes one man's outcome predicts more about the next guy's
outcome than do all the statistics in the world.

But don't you think that quirk is relevant to someone you're advising,
just in the off case he might think 100,000 anecdotes mean more than,
you know ... ONE?

I.P.

"Heather" <no.one@home.invalid> wrote in message
news:fqvf2m$r1s$1@registered.motzarella.org...

> Please stop worrying yourself to death and just follow what your doctor
> suggests. You may be like Steve K and have minimal SE's. I have a theory
> on why, but he would smack me for that one, LOL!!

Nonsense! I almost never strike a woman. :-)


> ......it is *blizzarding* AGAIN here in Toronto.....30 cm today
> (foot?....hate metric).

Yeah, that's about right. It started over Curtis, went through us, then
over pmoore11 (hmmmm, haven't heard from him in awhile), and right on
through to you, Doug49, FredK, Greg Louis, khildebrandt, Norman, and Fr.
Moschos. Speaking of which, have you heard from Stavros lately?




--
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04, <0.04, <0.1 2/12/08
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:_pKAj.106$tI4.50@newsfe05.lga...
> Heather wrote:
>
>> pay no attention to IP who goes on about the *dreaded side effects*
>
> That's criminally inexcusable and irresponsible advice, considering that I
> merely parrot the mainstream literature.

I agree that it would be inexcusable, if that is what she said. I'm not so
sure of the "criminally" adverb. As it is, it is inexcusable that you
redacted the "I" in your quotation of her.

"Heather" <no.one@home.invalid> wrote in message
news:fqvuku$o0l$1@registered.motzarella.org...

> One being you have no first hand knowledge of ADT's side effects. And all
> the studies in the world aren't worth an ounce of goose pee compared to a
> real life experience.

Assuming of course that goose pee doesn't end up being the cure we're all
looking for.

"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:MzLAj.392$EX6.375@newsfe06.lga...

> Oops. So sorry, and I apologize. I had forgotten you're the one who
> actually believes one man's outcome predicts more about the next guy's
> outcome than do all the statistics in the world.
>
> But don't you think that quirk is relevant to someone you're advising,
> just in the off case he might think 100,000 anecdotes mean more than, you
> know ... ONE?
>

Not in defense of Heather, but to remind the newbies....


> Virtually every man who undergoes treatment involving current ADT meds
> will experience some issues that they have never dealt with in their
> lives. Some will be mild. Some will be moderate but can be made mild.
> Some will be serious but can be made moderate. Some will be so strong
> that a few will stop using them though they may die sooner.
>
> But, nobody knows how many or which SEs he will experience or how severe
> they will be or how easily they can be mitigated by other medications or
> activities.

It should be noted that Heather's Ron was one who chose to chance death
rather than continue with ADT.

On Mar 9, 6:40*am, "Steve Kramer" <skra...@cinci.rr.com>
wrote...snip...

> It should be noted that Heather's Ron was one who chose to chance death
> rather than continue with ADT.

No one needs to chance death rather than continue with ADT. There are
different AA and LHRH agonist analogues, each differing slightly in
chemical structure from the next, that may offer different SE profiles
for a given patient. There are also LHRH antagonists that an
oncologist might choose to try. Estrogen and its derivatives are
available. They have a long track record of proven success with an
extremely different SE profile. Finally there is low dose
ketoconazole.

Options abound, one can choose an androgen deprivation therapy with
tolerable SEs if they desire continued treatment to lower
testosterone...ron

Steve Kramer wrote:
> "I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
> news:_pKAj.106$tI4.50@newsfe05.lga...
>> Heather wrote:
>>
>>> pay no attention to IP who goes on about the *dreaded side effects*
>> That's criminally inexcusable and irresponsible advice, considering that I
>> merely parrot the mainstream literature.
>
> I agree that it would be inexcusable, if that is what she said. I'm not so
> sure of the "criminally" adverb. As it is, it is inexcusable that you
> redacted the "I" in your quotation of her.

Literally, of course, "criminal" MAY be inaccurate; it was used to
emphasize degree, not as legal advice.

As for redacting the "I" being inexcusable, I disagree, as it does not
change her message: "pay no attention to IP who goes on about the
*dreaded side effects*". She's telling someone asking about SEs, once
again, that the literature based on scores of thousands of cases has
less predictive value than the ONE INDIVIDUAL she happens to be married
to. Every person in this forum should be in her fade about spreading
total, harmful, dangerous, stupid BS like that. Anything less is
inexcusable.

I.P.

See below...

"Steve Kramer" <skramer@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47d3dacd$0$6984$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> Not in defense of Heather, but to remind the newbies....

Thank you.....that was my point. I get tired of IP's scare tactics.
>
>
>> Virtually every man who undergoes treatment involving current ADT
>> meds will experience some issues that they have never dealt with in
>> their lives. Some will be mild. Some will be moderate but can be
>> made mild. Some will be serious but can be made moderate. Some will
>> be so strong that a few will stop using them though they may die
>> sooner.
>>
>> But, nobody knows how many or which SEs he will experience or how
>> severe they will be or how easily they can be mitigated by other
>> medications or activities.<<<
>
> It should be noted that Heather's Ron was one who chose to chance
> death rather than continue with ADT.<<<<<
-----------------------

Not quite, Steve. He didn't "choose to chance death"......he chose to
come off the HT because he had rather severe side effects. I would say
he chose to enjoy life more. He literally couldn't walk 20 feet without
resting.

He and the doctor agree that if his PSA hits 2.0, he will go back on
just Zoladex for a while. He was on 3 meds before and that was too
much. Dr. Loblaw took him off Megace and Casodex immediately.....took 3
months for the Zoladex shot to mellow out.

The old guy is now out with the snowblower. Mind you, the neighbours
are amazing!! We come out and find that they have banded together and
shovelled us out.

Cheers.....Nanook of the North

"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
newsqUAj.21$W4.14@newsfe06.lga...
> Steve Kramer wrote:
>> "I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
>> news:_pKAj.106$tI4.50@newsfe05.lga...
>>> Heather wrote:
>>>
>>>> pay no attention to IP who goes on about the *dreaded side effects*
>>> That's criminally inexcusable and irresponsible advice, considering
>>> that I merely parrot the mainstream literature.
>>
>> I agree that it would be inexcusable, if that is what she said. I'm
>> not so sure of the "criminally" adverb. As it is, it is inexcusable
>> that you redacted the "I" in your quotation of her.
>
> Literally, of course, "criminal" MAY be inaccurate; it was used to
> emphasize degree, not as legal advice.
>
> As for redacting the "I" being inexcusable, I disagree, as it does not
> change her message: "pay no attention to IP who goes on about the
> *dreaded side effects*". She's telling someone asking about SEs, once
> again, that the literature based on scores of thousands of cases has
> less predictive value than the ONE INDIVIDUAL she happens to be
> married to.<<<<<

BS, IP!! I stated that EYE pay no attention to you and your scare
stories....I never suggested that everyone follow my example (even tho
it might not be a bad idea, evil grin).

He asked for ANECDOTAL evidence as to how soon the SE's hit and I
answered with Ron's experience....and gave 7 months for the ONLY
individual I have ever been married to, and gave a round figure of 3
months which others have reported as their time zone, so to speak.

So stop playing with my words and stfu, OK?? Frankly, I think you are
scared sh*tless of ADT and it sure colours your view of it.

Now go away.....I am tired of you twisting my words to suit your
diatribes. I was merely commenting on the different lengths of time it
takes for SE's to hit, which I am sure you have seen many times on this
news group.

HF

Hi Puss......I just heard from Fr. Moschos and he has a new email
address. I will write him today. He is now with my ISP and his
notification was in my junk mail......these anti-spam measures can be
dangerous!!

Cheers....Heather

"Steve Kramer" <skramer@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47d3d07b$0$7010$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "Heather" <no.one@home.invalid> wrote in message
> news:fqvf2m$r1s$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
>> Please stop worrying yourself to death and just follow what your
>> doctor suggests. You may be like Steve K and have minimal SE's. I
>> have a theory on why, but he would smack me for that one, LOL!!
>
> Nonsense! I almost never strike a woman. :-)
>
>
>> ......it is *blizzarding* AGAIN here in Toronto.....30 cm today
>> (foot?....hate metric).
>
> Yeah, that's about right. It started over Curtis, went through us,
> then over pmoore11 (hmmmm, haven't heard from him in awhile), and
> right on through to you, Doug49, FredK, Greg Louis, khildebrandt,
> Norman, and Fr. Moschos. Speaking of which, have you heard from
> Stavros lately?
>
>
>
>
> --
> PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
> Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
> RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
> PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years
> EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
> PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years
> Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
> PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years
> Casodex added daily 07/06
> PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04, <0.04, <0.1 2/12/08
> Non Illegitimi Carborundum
>

Back to skeptic's original question:

> For those who have had ADT2....have the SE kicked in immediately or
> was there a delay of several weeks befoe you felt anything different?

My experience was that the side effects of Lupron were pretty
nice for the first couple of weeks. There was a testosterone
flare during that period. It might be just the thing for your
Caribbean vacation.

After that time, the testosterone began to wane. It was probably
about 4-6 weeks after the injection that I got my first hot flash.

In my own case, I never had a side effect that required any
medical attention. The worst effects I had were after about 6
months I began to get gradually increasing stiffness and
pain in my finger joints. Medical help (my doctor gave me
anti-inflammatories) did no good at all. I was able to resolve
the problem myself with exercise.

I did have much lowered energy. I don't know whether that was
due to the drop in testosterone, or to the radiation that I was
getting concurrently with the ADT. I suspect a lot of it was
due to the ADT. But there too, exercise was the key antidote.

So my advice is, go on the vacation. Have a good time. The
drugs are going to put your cancer into remission for some time
and, since you've started early, possibly for a long time.

Stop worrying. All of us have only so much time on earth anyway.
Let's make the most of it and not spend it wracked by anxiety.

Alan

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 16:01:44 -0800 (PST), skeptic <ribrass@aol.com>
wrote:

<snip>
>As we know, we have heard many varying results from members of this
>group on ADT, so I know there is no one standard reaction, but I need
>to hear some anecdotal experiences so I can decide what to
>postpone...if anything.

I read all the Heather/IP shit-fight and urgers' comments in the
thread so far.

You are right, everyone is different.

Statistics are not worth a 'knob of goat-shit' if you don't fit the
middle of the probability curve.

I don't...but then I'm a stupid Aussie who still has a house and is
not faced with electing some other idiot as President.

I'd send y'awl a food parcel, but the sub-prime fiasco and other world
shattering events have depleted my stocks


-Please reply to group as my email addr is fake!

-Regards CC

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 08:40:40 -0400, "Steve Kramer"
<skramer@cinci.rr.com> wrote:

Skeptic, my side effects - from Casodex alone - came on gradually. The
first was hot flashes, which started at least several weeks into the
treatment, as best I remember. They were annoying, but managable.
They wouldn't have been much of a bother to a vacation. The other,
worse ones for me, didn't hit until much later. Based on my
experience, I'd say don't worry about the side effects interferring
with your trip. But, again, I was on Casodex, only. I have no
knowledge of what the combination might have done.

Like Ron, I decided to quit taking the Casodex because the cumulative
side effects were cutting into my quality of life too much. My doc
says I'm the "champion" of Casodex side effects, in his experience.
But, that's just my experience. Some, like Steve Kramer, can stay on
it for extended periods and be OK. I sincerely hope your experience
is much closer to Steve's than mine, Skeptic. But, there's only one
way to know - try it. You can always quit.

>It should be noted that Heather's Ron was one who chose to chance death
>rather than continue with ADT.
>
As to Steve's comment about Ron being "one who chose to chance death
rather than continue with ADT", that's just nonsensical,
emotional-stirring rhetoric that is about on par with I. P.'s
characterization of Heather's comments as being "criminal".

I am not "chancing death" by not continuing ADT! I think we are all
going to die sometime. I chance death when I get in my car and drive
to Safeway, not by stopping Casodex. I concede that stopping ADT
**may** contribute to my dying earlier than if I had stayed on it;
but, there are some who might question that, too. And, as has been
correctly stated here many times, statistics doesn't mean much to an
individual's actual experience. I made the choice to be able to enjoy
my life - whatever the duration - rather than feel like crap all the
time. And, I'm happy with that decision, thank you.

"criminal" "chose to chance death" What is going on out there? How
about leaving the sensational, inflamatory remarks to our would-be
presidential candidates (who are better at that, anyway) and sticking
a bit closer to reality in this group?

Best regards to all. Enjoy your vacation, Skeptic!

Burney
RP in 1995 (age 52)
RT in 2000
ADT (Casodex) 10/06 - 8/07
Latest PSA - 0.18

burney dot huff at mindspring dot com

"ron" <oitbso@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:69e05242-7166-4edb-8343-c1eab85bb433@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 9, 6:40 am, "Steve Kramer" <skra...@cinci.rr.com>
wrote...snip...

> It should be noted that Heather's Ron was one who chose to chance death
> rather than continue with ADT.

No one needs to chance death rather than continue with ADT. There are
different AA and LHRH agonist analogues, each differing slightly in
chemical structure from the next, that may offer different SE profiles
for a given patient. There are also LHRH antagonists that an
oncologist might choose to try. Estrogen and its derivatives are
available. They have a long track record of proven success with an
extremely different SE profile. Finally there is low dose
ketoconazole.

Options abound, one can choose an androgen deprivation therapy with
tolerable SEs if they desire continued treatment to lower
testosterone...ron

==> As always, a sound, rational voice. Thanks, ron.

"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
newsqUAj.21$W4.14@newsfe06.lga...


> As for redacting the "I" being inexcusable, I disagree, as it does not
> change her message: "pay no attention to IP who goes on about the *dreaded
> side effects*".

I do not agree. However, if that was your thought at the time, then why did
you redact the "I"? To save on server space?

"Heather" <no.one@home.invalid> wrote in message
news:fr17pd$ro7$1@registered.motzarella.org...

> Now go away.....


One inexcusable act does not make him a troll or anything else that we
should reserve for expulsion.

"Heather" <no.one@home.invalid> wrote in message
news:fr17c8$pbv$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> See below...

>> It should be noted that Heather's Ron was one who chose to chance death
>> rather than continue with ADT.<<<<<
> -----------------------
>
> Not quite, Steve. He didn't "choose to chance death"......he chose to
> come off the HT because he had rather severe side effects. I would say he
> chose to enjoy life more. He literally couldn't walk 20 feet without
> resting.

Perhaps I should clarify. He took a chance on quantity of life to hopefully
enhance his quality of life. I would, and if necessary will, make the same
decision when/if the time comes. Once again, I think, you, Ron, IP and I
agree.

Though ron has raised an interesting side-debate. What's Ron think about
trying alternatives?

"Clarence Crow" <crow@perch.biz> wrote in message
news:v4a8t3pb4d5bfjd56e9cou066eoqoppluj@4ax.com...

> I read all the Heather/IP shit-fight and urgers' comments in the
> thread so far.

> Statistics are not worth a 'knob of goat-shit' if you don't fit the
> middle of the probability curve.
>
> I don't...but then I'm a stupid Aussie who still has a house and is
> not faced with electing some other idiot as President.
>
> I'd send y'awl a food parcel, but the sub-prime fiasco and other world
> shattering events have depleted my stocks

Oh, how I like Australians. Don't agree with you on at least one count, but
I sure as hell like your unabashed way of saying what you think.

"Steve Kramer" <skramer@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47d44885$0$4957$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> "Heather" <no.one@home.invalid> wrote in message
> news:fr17pd$ro7$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
>> Now go away.....
>
>
> One inexcusable act does not make him a troll or anything else that we
> should reserve for expulsion.

No.....I just meant to stay out of MY face. He can go twist other
people's statements.

Thanks, ron......I am keeping this for our Toronto oncologist. There is
another ADT name that he had the first time and I don't think it is
available in the US. I will have to find the name of it again. Perhaps
that is why he went longer than most before the side effects hit. The
oncologist out here in Brampton switched him over to Zoladex.....worth a
thought or two, I think.

Btw....while looking for the name of the above ADT shot, I cam across
this article on reducing hot flashes and spinal fractures. The drug is
called "toremifene citrate" and the writeup is here.....
http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyand...683906&k=25044

Can't find the name, but am amazed at the huge increase in Canadian
articles and research on prostate cancer in 5 years.

Steve, can you remember the very first shot Ron had?? I think it may
have started with a "C"..

Heather
"ron" <oitbso@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:69e05242-7166-4edb-8343-c1eab85bb433@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 9, 6:40 am, "Steve Kramer" <skra...@cinci.rr.com>
wrote...snip...

> It should be noted that Heather's Ron was one who chose to chance
> death
> rather than continue with ADT.

No one needs to chance death rather than continue with ADT. There are
different AA and LHRH agonist analogues, each differing slightly in
chemical structure from the next, that may offer different SE profiles
for a given patient. There are also LHRH antagonists that an
oncologist might choose to try. Estrogen and its derivatives are
available. They have a long track record of proven success with an
extremely different SE profile. Finally there is low dose
ketoconazole.

Options abound, one can choose an androgen deprivation therapy with
tolerable SEs if they desire continued treatment to lower
testosterone...ron

"Steve Kramer" <skramer@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47d449e8$0$4939$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> "Heather" <no.one@home.invalid> wrote in message
> news:fr17c8$pbv$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>> See below...
>
>>> It should be noted that Heather's Ron was one who chose to chance
>>> death rather than continue with ADT.<<<<<
>> -----------------------
>>
>> Not quite, Steve. He didn't "choose to chance death"......he chose
>> to come off the HT because he had rather severe side effects. I
>> would say he chose to enjoy life more. He literally couldn't walk 20
>> feet without resting.
>
> Perhaps I should clarify. He took a chance on quantity of life to
> hopefully enhance his quality of life. I would, and if necessary
> will, make >the same decision when/if the time comes. <<<

I understood what you meant.
>
> Though ron has raised an interesting side-debate. What's Ron think
> about trying alternatives?<<<<
--------------------

It hasn't come up frankly. But his PSA is up a tad as I told you
privately. He feels much better now that his testosterone level is
normal.

I think it was Alan Meyer who suggested Ron try estrogen and I did ask
Dr. Loblaw in the past year. He is not in favour of it due to side
effects vs effectiveness, IIRC.

We didn't see him this visit, which suggests to me that he is not too
worried as of now. We were supposed to go to a lecture he was giving a
month ago, but of course had a 30 cm snowfall and Andrew said it took
him an hour just to get out of the underground parking lot!!

I just pray Ron's May PSA stays stable. He is still below 1.0, and the
allowable limit seems to be 2.0 and above.

But when the time comes, I will ask Andrew about the things ron
suggested. I have kept a copy.

Cheers....Heather

"BH" <happy@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:rnd8t3hm540fc4augrv7lhr8ik6ptm4oeb@4ax.com...

> As to Steve's comment about Ron being "one who chose to chance death
> rather than continue with ADT", that's just nonsensical,
> emotional-stirring rhetoric that is about on par with I. P.'s
> characterization of Heather's comments as being "criminal".

I hoped I had clarified that. I'll take it further (with apologies for its
length).

I and most (probably all) people who take ADT after surgery or radiation do
so for the purpose of extending our lives or extending that time between
salvation radiation and chemotherapy or for some other quantity of life
purpose.

Some of us have been lucky to be not as effected by the side effects of ADT.
Some have been hit rather hard with ADT and cannot or will not accept its
side effects. You (and maybe someday me) will not allow ADT to further
infringe on the quality of the remaining balance of your lives. That is one
tough decision and for those of you who have stopped ADT due to the quality
of your lives and/or the lives of your loved ones, I salute you!

Having so many of us who have faired well under ADT, I cannot understand the
penchant for telling people that they really ought to consider not trying it
at all. To that end, I last week composed a passage on which I.P. and I
agree. Each time that, in my humble opinion, he goes above and beyond that
which I think he should in "advising people of the side effects of ADT" I
will simply counter with the passage that he and I agree with. I think our
battles over the subject will cease.

I am extremely sorry about the phrase "choosing death" who whatever it was I
said. I meant only the choosing of quality over risk of quantity and I
always intend to be sincerely complimentary when doing so. I place bravery
as one of the highest traits to which one can aspire and that decision
surely qualifies. At best, my decisions so far have been to take a stand,
retreat, take a stand, retreat... I hope when I have quantity and quality
to choose from, I will be as brave as you. Even when one swears to not let
the bastard grind him down, sometimes he must avert his attention and
efforts in another direction in the interest of his family and love ones.

ron wrote:
> On Mar 9, 6:40 am, "Steve Kramer" <skra...@cinci.rr.com>
> wrote...snip...
>
>> It should be noted that Heather's Ron was one who chose to chance death
>> rather than continue with ADT.
>
> No one needs to chance death rather than continue with ADT. There are
> different AA and LHRH agonist analogues, each differing slightly in
> chemical structure from the next, that may offer different SE profiles
> for a given patient. There are also LHRH antagonists that an
> oncologist might choose to try. Estrogen and its derivatives are
> available. They have a long track record of proven success with an
> extremely different SE profile. Finally there is low dose
> ketoconazole.
>
> Options abound, one can choose an androgen deprivation therapy with
> tolerable SEs if they desire continued treatment to lower
> testosterone...ron

It's not necessarily a question of need; it involves personal criteria,
conflicting data, arguing experts, outright choice, and the fact that
much of the SE profile is driven not by the drug but by the testosterone
deprivation itself. Why else would would a renown oncologist with
advanced PC discontinue his ADT, publicly attesting as he sat in a panel
at a PC symposium that his SEs were worse than his met symptoms now and
in the foreseeable future? He was not "chancing" death; he was
knowledgeably choosing an earlier death as better than his ADT SEs,
fully knowing the adjunct and alternative treatment options at his
disposal.

ADT has virtually nothing to do with "chancing" death; it merely -- we
hope -- delays it. i.e.,it ADDS some SEs in the HOPE that it may extend
the inevitable. It all falls back to the same personal tradeoff between
unimpaired QOL for several years vs impaired QOL for several years +
several months. To artificially quantify the tradeoff based on
huge-scale statistics for the post-treatment patient w/low PSA, let's
call it 100 months of high QOL life vs 107 months of impaired-QOL life.
IMO, that's a legitimate, very personal dilemma, not a no-brainer in
either direction.

I.P.

Heather wrote:
> I get tired of IP's scare tactics.

> [my husband] didn't "choose to chance death"......he chose to
> come off the HT because he had rather severe side effects. I would say
> he chose to enjoy life more. He literally couldn't walk 20 feet without
> resting.

> The old guy is now out with the snowblower.

Given that Heather's "old guy" and I concur, I don't comprehend what
Heather's beef is.

OH, YES ... now that I think of it, I DO.
It's because I agree with the evidence that socialized medicine is a
crock. Apparently because of that, she's saying her husband's severe SEs
prove I'm a scaremonger.

Perfectly clear.

I.P.

> Steve, can you remember the very first shot Ron had?? I think it may
> have started with a "C"..

Casodex and Superfect in October 2004.

Steve Kramer wrote:
> why did you redact the "I"?

I am sick and tired of people quoting paragraphs and even pages when
their post refers only to a sentence or even a phrase. I thus try to
parse down to the relevant minimum. Usually have, usually will. No
attempt at all to distort Heather's meaning -- a despicable practice I
do not employ or tolerate -- as I explained above.

I.P.

Clarence Crow wrote:
>
> Statistics are not worth a 'knob of goat-shit' if you don't fit the
> middle of the probability curve.

I totally agree.

Now ... how do we objectively, actively determine whether we fit some
probability curve?

I.P.

Steve Kramer wrote:
> "Heather" <no.one@home.invalid> wrote in message
> news:fqvuku$o0l$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
>> One being you have no first hand knowledge of ADT's side effects. And all
>> the studies in the world aren't worth an ounce of goose pee compared to a
>> real life experience.

That's one of the two or three dumbest, most potentially dangerous, most
irresponsible statements I've seen in my three years here. I'll be very
disappointed in this group if that obviously asinine statement is not
soundly refuted.