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does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?
  1. #1
    [email protected] Guest

    Default does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    i am experiencing symptoms similar to before i started taking
    supplements to improve my mood, which in turn, relaxed me, resulting in
    more energy and strength. since my surgery, my mood has lowered and i
    am getting more muscle tension and spazem.
    i know that there was dht (testosterone) in the prostate.
    could there be a shift in the hormonal balance which is causing more
    tension?

    gary


  2. #2
    ron Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    [email protected] wrote:
    > i am experiencing symptoms similar to before i started taking
    > supplements to improve my mood, which in turn, relaxed me, resulting in
    > more energy and strength. since my surgery, my mood has lowered and i
    > am getting more muscle tension and spazem.
    > i know that there was dht (testosterone) in the prostate.
    > could there be a shift in the hormonal balance which is causing more
    > tension?
    >
    > gary


    Hi Gary...Walsh did a small study on this question. He drew blood from
    men prior to RP and then, again, a year later. He found...

    "Radical prostatectomy influences the hypothalamic pituitary axis by
    increasing serum testosterone, percent free testosterone, estradiol, LH
    and FSH while decreasing serum DHT levels. These findings suggest that
    the sexual dysfunction associated with radical prostatectomy cannot be
    explained by androgen deficiency alone. These data further suggest that
    the normal prostate and/or prostate neoplasm could secrete a substance
    or substances that give negative feedback control to pituitary
    gonadotropin secretion. Further investigation is warranted to identify
    this substance or substances."

    ....Best wishes and good health, ron


  3. #3
    callalily Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    Hello again Gary--

    [email protected] wrote:
    > i since my surgery, my mood has lowered and i
    > am getting more muscle tension and spazem.
    > i know that there was dht (testosterone) in the prostate.
    > could there be a shift in the hormonal balance which is causing more
    > tension?
    >
    > gary



    All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate
    removed. It is normal and it will take time for you to work it out.
    In the meantime, I suggest you see a mental health professional for
    psychotherapy and you might also benefit from mood lifting drugs. My
    guess is that depression and anxiety are causing your low mood and
    muscle tension. If you need help finding somebody just email me:
    [email protected].

    My husband started seeing a therapist (social worker) after his
    diagnosis and it has been a godsend. He needed somebody to talk to
    because he is a very reserved person and it is hard even to discuss
    this illness with your intimates. My husb also started taking effexor
    (an antidepressant) and he said it saved his life. Now he is doing
    very well and is very upbeat but in the beginning everybody needs some
    help.

    A lot of men go to counseling but they don't advertise it.

    Ideally proper treatment for RP should require mandatory psych and
    sexual counseling after the surgery because recovery is an ongoing
    process.

    Good luck.

    Leah.


  4. #4
    I.P. Freely Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    callalily wrote:
    > All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate
    > removed. It is normal


    I was going to let that slide, thinking it didn't matter. But if it
    misleads Gary into assuming emotional distress -- particularly his level
    thereof -- really is unavoidable, he might not pursue it to diagnosis
    and resolution. If his cause is treatable and/or significant, his
    inaction could lead to unnecessary misery or even additional problems.

    As some of us, including myself, have said here, PC is a just a
    technical challenge to be solved as best as we can so we can
    fugheddaboutit and get on with the rest of our lives. My reactions were:
    "Crap! Another hassle, and a big one.",
    "HAH!! I KNEW I was smart to retire at 45 in case I don't live forever.",
    "We knew SOMETHING would end the fun; guess it may be PC.", and
    "OK . . . what are my options?".
    Then I researched them, chose two, acted, and went windsurfing.

    So Gary needs to look a little further, because a significant emotional
    reaction to cancer -- especially a likely END to same -- is not a given.
    Maybe:
    He's often emotional anyway, as his post implies, or
    Those supplements or lack thereof are messing him up (St. John's wort,
    for example, is not something to be taken lightly), or
    It hadn't sunk in until now that he's mortal, or
    His T is low and is depressing him (very common w/low T), or
    His surgery, anesthesia, and/or cancer has physiologically impacted his
    endocrine/hormonal system, or
    Something unrelated is causing the symptoms, or
    Job stress AND PC have pushed him over the emotional edge, or
    His stress may even be due to having his prostate removed, but that
    gives many of us RELIEF, not distress.

    I'd keep looking, Gary. Do any of the things on that list strike a
    chord, or can you add to the list?

    I.P.

  5. #5
    Mary Fisher Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    "callalily" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected] ups.com...

    >
    >
    > All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate
    > removed.


    At the risk of being accused of criticism again (wrongly) I want to say that
    my husband didn't experience emotional distress, he rejoiced because his
    cancer was removed and with it quite a few side effects.

    I'm sure that many men are distressed, but not all. Everyone is different.

    Spouse was far more distressed after his MI in 1984, he felt that it was
    diminishing his manhood because he couldn't do the physical activities he
    had done before. It was made worse when the Blood Transfusion Service said
    that he couldn't give blood any more. It took quite a lot of encouragement
    on my part, coupled with exercise, for him to regain his former physical
    self and his self esteem.

    I don't know nay other man who felt like that after an MI but I'm sure there
    must be some.

    Mary



  6. #6
    [email protected] Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    [email protected] wrote:
    > i am experiencing symptoms similar to before i started taking
    > supplements to improve my mood, which in turn, relaxed me, resulting in
    > more energy and strength. since my surgery, my mood has lowered and i
    > am getting more muscle tension and spazem.
    > i know that there was dht (testosterone) in the prostate.
    > could there be a shift in the hormonal balance which is causing more
    > tension?


    I suppose it could be the prostate's contribution to hormonal balance
    but I'd look at the whole package.

    You had major surgery with all the physical affront to your body.

    Erections, intercourse, orgasms - Depending on how that part of your
    life changed, you're looking at a big effect on your mood and
    "tension".

    I don't know if pee'ing is an issue for you but for some, slumping
    around in diapers isn't fun.

    Come up with some fun activities, sports, hobbies, whatever it is you
    like to do.

    Update from a rad-grad - I slept for 10 hours last night. Did not get
    up to pee. This morning at 8:00 AM I had a lot to empty out. It was
    slower than usual but not a dribble.

    My erections and orgasms are gradually improving. They're better than
    a year ago so I can't complain. Still bendable and the squirt is a
    dribble though.

    I guess I'll have to work at it more.

    -kh


  7. #7
    callalily Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    Dear IP,

    I.P. Freely wrote:
    > callalily wrote:
    > > All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate
    > > removed. It is normal


    The reason I wrote that is that I had just gotten off the phone after
    an hour-long conversation with a very interesting man. He is a
    neuroscientist among other prestigious things and he noticed my
    interest in you bozos and suggested I read one of his papers. So I
    did.

    What I did not know is that he himself is a pca survivor who has had
    the disease for six years and (at least from his academic output) is
    doing very well. However, because of his illness he has shifted his
    focus a bit and has been studying the effects of Pca on men,
    particulartly those, who like him, are on HT.

    We talked about some standard problems with pca treatment, especially
    the lack of "aftercare" that men receive. He said, in his opinion and
    based on extensive research, all men experience some emotional distress
    as a result of suffering a loss or losses of various kinds after
    surgery or other tx and he agreed with me that the best thing for a
    man to do is to acknowledge it, grieve over it, and move on to have a
    productive and happy life. He believes that men who don't feel anything
    of this sort are in denial. What I personally believe differs in men
    is not whether they feel emotional pain but the degree to which they
    do.

    He also agreed with me that psych. counseling after treatment should be
    a mandatory part of pca therapy. He, like I, was upset about the "cut
    and run" attitude of many doctors. The best doctors are those who
    follow up with you and are there to support you after the surgery. IMO
    RP surgery is a process, it's not over in a couple of hours.

    This prof also mentioned to me that he has a colleague who is a
    psychologist whose work is limited to counseling pca patients. Well,
    it might be a good idea to start a franchise of that sort and I am
    tempted to look into it.

    Now I am mentioning all this because these are the feelings and
    opinions of a MAN. After this conversation I told my husband about it
    and asked him if he had experienced any feelings of "loss" after his
    RP. Now, first I will tell you that he is not the type to be emotional
    about about anything (like IP?) and after the first difficult weeks
    after his RP his mood returned to normal and he never said a word about
    feeling bad. Nevertheless, when I asked him this question his
    immediate response was "yes, absolutely". But like most men he had
    kept it to himself. I knew he must have had these feelings because I
    mysellf felt upset that anybody had had the nerve to lay a hand on him
    "there."

    So the message is you don't have to be a sissy to feel at least a
    little bad about somebody messing around with your "manhood." So when
    I said all men experience emotional distress I was quoting the opinion
    of this professor who is a Man, a pca survivor and something of an
    expert on this subject.

    We were both hoping that this would lead to some positive changes.

    > I was going to let that slide, thinking it didn't matter. But if it
    > misleads Gary into assuming emotional distress -- particularly his level
    > thereof -- really is unavoidable, he might not pursue it to diagnosis
    > and resolution. If his cause is treatable and/or significant, his
    > inaction could lead to unnecessary misery or even additional problems.


    Well, I will acknowledge that where I live going to therapy is as
    natural as breathing. However, I stand by what I said. Gary has been
    talking here about his distress about being incontinent, his worry --
    even panic -- about his future sexual function and a host of other
    things. I don't think these feelings are being caused by lack of
    supplements or hormonal changes.

    I absolutely did not want to suggest to Gary that he will be a psych
    wreck for life. Actually, this was something I disagreed with about
    "Joe's List" but did not mention. There were so many "invalid" items
    on that list that I was worried it would give a man the idea that he
    was supposed to be disabled for life. I suggested to Gary that what he
    feels is normal, at least it makes sense, and that he will get over it
    in time but is not a bad thing to acknowledge those feelings. I was not
    suggesting he has an intractable problem.
    >
    > As some of us, including myself, have said here, PC is a just a
    > technical challenge to be solved as best as we can so we can
    > fugheddaboutit and get on with the rest of our lives. My reactions were:
    > "Crap! Another hassle, and a big one.",


    Now you are being the old soldier in the same way as you order everyone
    into "basic training". Not everything that's right for you is right
    for everyone else. Post-RP recovery is not "one size fits all." If RP
    is just a "technical challenge" then the moon is pink. In the
    aftermath of somebody messing around with your genitals, with a knife,
    you are supposed to feel hunky dory, right? IMO you are/were not "in
    touch with your feelings" as the old cliche goes and the people who are
    will have an easier time in the long run.

    > "HAH!! I KNEW I was smart to retire at 45 in case I don't live forever.",
    > "We knew SOMETHING would end the fun; guess it may be PC.", and
    > "OK . . . what are my options?".
    > Then I researched them, chose two, acted, and went windsurfing.
    >

    Well, I don't know where you live, maybe Hawaii if you're lucky, but I
    don't have any windsurfing near me.

    > So Gary needs to look a little further, because a significant emotional
    > reaction to cancer -- especially a likely END to same -- is not a given. >

    Maybe:> He's often emotional anyway, as his post implies, or

    That's right, he does come across as upset and why not? Incontinence,
    impotence or whatever are not pleasant.

    > Those supplements or lack thereof are messing him up (St. John's wort,
    > for example, is not something to be taken lightly), or
    > It hadn't sunk in until now that he's mortal, or
    > His T is low and is depressing him (very common w/low T), or
    > His surgery, anesthesia, and/or cancer has physiologically impacted his
    > endocrine/hormonal system, or


    > Something unrelated is causing the symptoms, or
    > Job stress AND PC have pushed him over the emotional edge,


    Gary hasn't said a word about job stress.

    > His stress may even be due to having his prostate removed, but that
    > gives many of us RELIEF, not distress.


    Anything is possible but most likely the neurotransmitters in Gary's
    and other's brains, such as serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine,
    which affect our mood, have gotten a little sluggish and they could
    benefit from a chemical boost. This can be done with mood-lifting
    drugs which simply up the level of these "hormones" and correct this
    "brain drain." Many men have written in these groups that they have
    benefited from short term use of these drugs.
    >
    > I'd keep looking, Gary. Do any of the things on that list strike a
    > chord, or can you add to the list?
    >
    > I.P.


    Best to you all and Gary I hope you feel better.


    Leah


  8. #8
    Mark A Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    "Mary Fisher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:4565946d$0$765$[email protected] t...
    > At the risk of being accused of criticism again (wrongly) I want to say
    > that my husband didn't experience emotional distress, he rejoiced because
    > his cancer was removed and with it quite a few side effects.
    >
    > I'm sure that many men are distressed, but not all. Everyone is different.
    >
    > Spouse was far more distressed after his MI in 1984, he felt that it was
    > diminishing his manhood because he couldn't do the physical activities he
    > had done before. It was made worse when the Blood Transfusion Service said
    > that he couldn't give blood any more. It took quite a lot of encouragement
    > on my part, coupled with exercise, for him to regain his former physical
    > self and his self esteem.
    >
    > I don't know nay other man who felt like that after an MI but I'm sure
    > there must be some.
    >
    > Mary


    WTF is a MI?



  9. #9
    Mark A Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected] ups.com...
    > I suppose it could be the prostate's contribution to hormonal balance
    > but I'd look at the whole package.
    >
    > You had major surgery with all the physical affront to your body.
    >
    > Erections, intercourse, orgasms - Depending on how that part of your
    > life changed, you're looking at a big effect on your mood and
    > "tension".
    >
    > I don't know if pee'ing is an issue for you but for some, slumping
    > around in diapers isn't fun.
    >
    > Come up with some fun activities, sports, hobbies, whatever it is you
    > like to do.
    >
    > Update from a rad-grad - I slept for 10 hours last night. Did not get
    > up to pee. This morning at 8:00 AM I had a lot to empty out. It was
    > slower than usual but not a dribble.
    >
    > My erections and orgasms are gradually improving. They're better than
    > a year ago so I can't complain. Still bendable and the squirt is a
    > dribble though.
    >
    > I guess I'll have to work at it more.
    >
    > -kh



    Exactly what kind of rad treatment did you have? Unless you tell us, your
    post is worthless (maybe worse than worthless).



  10. #10
    [email protected] Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    i had rlrp on oct 31st.
    a few yrs ago i tried ssri's to treat my neurotransmitter problems.
    they worked great except for the erection and orgasm problms. i then
    switched to neuronton, which is a gaba based drug that kind of balances
    the serotonin and the dopamine. it also worked without the sexual
    problems. i then found a supplement that does the same thing and i
    have doing great ever since until a few weeks after the surgery. my
    hip had pain then my neck now my lower lumbar. all those symptoms are
    the same as i had before i started the ssri's.
    i am now suspicious that i have a hormone impalance relating to my
    neurotransmitters again. i am treating it with advil, a muscle
    relaxer, tylenol, enzymes,and magnesium and ice. that all helps but i
    am still unable to walk or stand for any length of time before my lower
    lumbar and hip area start to ache. i am now starting to increase the
    dosage of gaba since i suspect it is neurotransmitter based. when i
    started the neurotin i saw 2 psychiatrists and had to plead with them
    to switch me from the ssri's to neuronten.

    gary


    Mark A wrote:
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected] ups.com...
    > > I suppose it could be the prostate's contribution to hormonal balance
    > > but I'd look at the whole package.
    > >
    > > You had major surgery with all the physical affront to your body.
    > >
    > > Erections, intercourse, orgasms - Depending on how that part of your
    > > life changed, you're looking at a big effect on your mood and
    > > "tension".
    > >
    > > I don't know if pee'ing is an issue for you but for some, slumping
    > > around in diapers isn't fun.
    > >
    > > Come up with some fun activities, sports, hobbies, whatever it is you
    > > like to do.
    > >
    > > Update from a rad-grad - I slept for 10 hours last night. Did not get
    > > up to pee. This morning at 8:00 AM I had a lot to empty out. It was
    > > slower than usual but not a dribble.
    > >
    > > My erections and orgasms are gradually improving. They're better than
    > > a year ago so I can't complain. Still bendable and the squirt is a
    > > dribble though.
    > >
    > > I guess I'll have to work at it more.
    > >
    > > -kh

    >
    >
    > Exactly what kind of rad treatment did you have? Unless you tell us, your
    > post is worthless (maybe worse than worthless).



  11. #11
    [email protected] Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    Mark A wrote:
    >
    > Exactly what kind of rad treatment did you have? Unless you tell us, your
    > post is worthless (maybe worse than worthless).


    I've submitted my details to the list many, many times. Here's the
    executive summary:

    Early Summer 2004, start of 8 months of Lupron.

    Late Summer 2004, 25 IMRT treatments at INOVA followed in

    October 2004, 97 Pd-103 seeds implanted the that INOVA cancer center by
    their brachy-name who was pleased with his workmanship.

    This is to treat an asymptomatic disease that was tracking at PSA 9-10
    for several years. Call it a doubling time in decades. That's no
    pressure on the uretha, nothing detected by a golden finger. 1st 6
    needle biopsy negative, then a couple years later, a 12 needle biopsy
    shows Gleason 7 (4+3) in 5% of one core sample.

    There are two, maybe three interesting things about my case.

    First, other than the Lupron side effects, I'm a text-book case for
    mild side effects from aggressive radiation therapy. I took Flomax
    for 6 months and stopped, didn't need it. Pee'ing is fine. A little
    urgency at times. I also have some bowel urgency later in the day but
    it's not a problem.

    I have chemically unaided erections and OK orgasms. Things work better
    with Vitamin-V so I occasionally use a crumb if I want to party.

    Second, the Lupron drove my fasting blood sugar to 300 and my
    triglycerides to over 800. This is bad mojo. If you take it, monitor
    your blood chemistry.

    Last, my PSA is bouncing high. I have some theories on this. I think
    younger guys who get the full radiation treatment and who get it "hard"
    and "even", bounce high.

    I won't know if this is a bounce until some time next year.

    Take a look at Google-groups and use that to research what you consider
    incomplete posts. You're coming in this story near the end. Google
    may help you understand "MI" in a medical situation, it's a common
    abbreviation for heart attack.

    Good luck to you.

    -kh


  12. #12
    Mark A Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected] ups.com...
    >
    > I've submitted my details to the list many, many times. Here's the
    > executive summary:
    >
    > Early Summer 2004, start of 8 months of Lupron.
    >
    > Late Summer 2004, 25 IMRT treatments at INOVA followed in
    >
    > October 2004, 97 Pd-103 seeds implanted the that INOVA cancer center by
    > their brachy-name who was pleased with his workmanship.
    >
    > This is to treat an asymptomatic disease that was tracking at PSA 9-10
    > for several years. Call it a doubling time in decades. That's no
    > pressure on the uretha, nothing detected by a golden finger. 1st 6
    > needle biopsy negative, then a couple years later, a 12 needle biopsy
    > shows Gleason 7 (4+3) in 5% of one core sample.
    >
    > There are two, maybe three interesting things about my case.
    >
    > First, other than the Lupron side effects, I'm a text-book case for
    > mild side effects from aggressive radiation therapy. I took Flomax
    > for 6 months and stopped, didn't need it. Pee'ing is fine. A little
    > urgency at times. I also have some bowel urgency later in the day but
    > it's not a problem.
    >
    > I have chemically unaided erections and OK orgasms. Things work better
    > with Vitamin-V so I occasionally use a crumb if I want to party.
    >
    > Second, the Lupron drove my fasting blood sugar to 300 and my
    > triglycerides to over 800. This is bad mojo. If you take it, monitor
    > your blood chemistry.
    >
    > Last, my PSA is bouncing high. I have some theories on this. I think
    > younger guys who get the full radiation treatment and who get it "hard"
    > and "even", bounce high.
    >
    > I won't know if this is a bounce until some time next year.
    >
    > Take a look at Google-groups and use that to research what you consider
    > incomplete posts. You're coming in this story near the end. Google
    > may help you understand "MI" in a medical situation, it's a common
    > abbreviation for heart attack.
    >
    > Good luck to you.
    >
    > -kh


    IMRT + Seeds would have been sufficient.

    I did Google MI, but got too much junk.



  13. #13
    I.P. Freely Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    callalily wrote:
    > [A neurosurgeon] said all men experience some emotional distress
    > as a result of suffering a loss or losses of various kinds after
    > surgery


    Given his weasel-words, "some" and "various kinds", I don't think his
    statement supports your more absolute version, "All men experience
    emotional distress after they have their prostate removed." It's just
    not universally true, as evidenced by several men here. I can't imagine
    any rational person being depressed over losing some obscure body part
    that's harming or even killing him. If the part or the surgery causes
    collateral functional damage, that's a different story.

    > the best thing for a man to do is to acknowledge it, grieve over it,
    > and move on to have a productive and happy life.


    I've tried a few times to grieve, or at least feel sad, over my father's
    death decades ago simply because I thought I should. Nope; nothing
    there. He was a drunken son of a bitch who cared about no one but
    himself and beat my Mom. All that ended at his death. My brother agrees
    completely. Compared to that, my cancerous prostate and colon, my
    life-threatening left inner ear, my hernias, my wisdom teeth, my
    shoulder repairs . . . NADA. Good riddance! Zero second thoughts.

    Grief is for LOSS of people, pets, and/or activities we love; we GAIN
    with most surgeries. I haven't LOST a prostate or half my colon; I've
    reGAINED my life.

    > He believes that men who don't feel anything of this sort are in denial.


    Of what? It's a piece of meat that, in this case, some dude said does
    much more harm than good.

    > I asked [husband] if he had experienced any feelings of "loss" after his
    > RP. He is not the type to be emotional about about anything (like IP?)


    I tear up or even cry at appropriate movies, at the bravery of soldiers,
    at injured animals, etc., and will probably be very depressed when I can
    no longer fly above the waves, but ... over a piece of MEAT?

    > like most men he had kept it to himself.


    I'm just the opposite. I have no problems discussing my feelings about
    anything with anyone who's interested.

    > I knew he must have had these feelings because I myself felt upset


    NOW we're gettin' somewhere. That's something women do often, and it's
    called projection or transferrence of feelings.

    > So the message is you don't have to be a sissy to feel at least a
    > little bad about somebody messing around with your "manhood."


    If "manhood" = parts, they FIXED my "manhood", because it was trying to
    kill me. That's a GOOD thing, I THINK. If "manhood" refers to one's
    psyche, that's in our head and heart, not our crotch or even our pants.
    If my "manhood" is the ability to have orgasms, they're still great.
    Sorry, but many of us just don't define ourselves by our crotches, or
    even what hangs from them, let alone by more obscure parts.

    > Gary has been talking here about his distress about being incontinent,
    > his worry about his future sexual function


    Now THAT I could understand. But:
    a. You and your neuro friend have been saying that surgery, per se,
    especially if it remove some meat, always causes depression.
    b. Neither Gary's topic or post mentioned any of that.

    > I.P. said
    >> As some of us, including myself, have said here, PC is a just a
    >> technical challenge to be solved as best as we can so we can
    >> fugheddaboutit and get on with the rest of our lives. My reactions were:
    >> "Crap! Another hassle, and a big one.",


    > Not everything that's right for you is right
    > for everyone else. Post-RP recovery is not "one size fits all."


    Never said it was. The only "one size fits all" statements here came
    from you and your neuro friend. My statement began with "As SOME of us ..."

    > In the aftermath of somebody messing around with your genitals, with
    > a knife, you are supposed to feel hunky dory, right?


    Except for the "supposed" part, Hell, yes. That was our objective, and
    we achieved it. I quit regarding my genitals as "mine", at least while
    in the hospital, about the third time I awoke in the morning to find a
    new gaggle of strangers staring at my purple, swollen, shortened,
    sweaty, bloody, crusty, flaccid, intubated crotch.

    > IMO you are/were not "in touch with your feelings"


    I may not be in touch with YOUR projected feelings, but I have a pretty
    good handle on my own.

    >> Then I researched them, chose two, acted, and went windsurfing.


    > I don't have any windsurfing near me.


    OK, dancing. Climbing the Empire State Building. Mooning the Crips.
    Whatever floats yer boat.
    Geez.

    > Gary hasn't said a word about job stress.

    Right. That was Kenn. My bad.

    > most likely the neurotransmitters ... have gotten a little sluggish
    > could benefit from a chemical boost ... with mood-lifting drugs


    I don't do medical diagnoses or prescribe meds. I just brainstorm
    possibilities for the pt and his doctors to consider.

    I.P.

  14. #14
    I.P. Freely Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    Mark A wrote:
    > IMRT + Seeds would have been sufficient.


    Even if you were a uro onc - which your next comment contradicts --
    prescribing a cancer treatment from a few paragraphs on the internet is
    way out of line.

    > I did Google MI, but got too much junk.


    Myocardial infarction.

    I.P.

  15. #15
    Mark A Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    "I.P. Freely" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    newsqw9h.322$[email protected]..
    > Even if you were a uro onc - which your next comment contradicts --
    > prescribing a cancer treatment from a few paragraphs on the internet is
    > way out of line.
    > I.P.


    Who said anything about prescribing a cancer treatment? However, it is
    useful to find out what kind of side-effects patients encounter from the
    various types of PC treatments. I have extensively researched the literature
    on this subject, and the amount of accurate information directly from
    patients is severely lacking (even though doctors are more than willing to
    volunteer what they think their patients have experienced).

    With regard to evaluating various treatments in terms of their efficacy
    against cancer, I would certainly consult a doctor. But in terms of
    evaluating what the side-effects were, in addition to hearing what a doctor
    says, I also like to hear it directory from patients.

    So when someone posts about their experience with side-effects, it is
    important to know (at a bare minimum) whether the radiation was IMRT, Seeds,
    or both.



  16. #16
    Mary Fisher Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    "Mark A" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news[email protected]..

    >
    > WTF is a MI?


    I don't know what you mean by WTF ...

    Mary



  17. #17
    JerryW Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    "Mary Fisher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:4566d2cb$0$761$[email protected] t...
    >
    > "Mark A" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news[email protected]..
    >
    >>
    >> WTF is a MI?

    >
    > I don't know what you mean by WTF ...
    >
    > Mary
    >


    Mary, WTF, I presume, is "what the f--k." Mark, MI is myocardial
    infarction...heart attack.

    JerryW



  18. #18
    Mary Fisher Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    "JerryW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:I_E9h.4961$[email protected] t...
    >
    > "Mary Fisher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:4566d2cb$0$761$[email protected] t...
    >>
    >> "Mark A" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news[email protected]..
    >>
    >>>
    >>> WTF is a MI?

    >>
    >> I don't know what you mean by WTF ...
    >>
    >> Mary
    >>

    >
    > Mary, WTF, I presume, is "what the f--k." Mark, MI is myocardial
    > infarction...heart attack.
    >
    > JerryW


    Thanks for explaining Jerry.

    I wouldn't reply to anyone who used weak language though, what's wrong with
    a simple "What is MI?"

    Mary
    >
    >




  19. #19
    Mark A Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    "Mary Fisher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:45672fca$0$760$[email protected] t...
    >
    > I wouldn't reply to anyone who used weak language though, what's wrong
    > with a simple "What is MI?"
    >
    > Mary



    That was not weak language. It was strong language.

    Since this a public forum, if you really care about helping others, then
    people should cut back on the abbreviations and "inside lingo." MI was a bit
    over the top for this forum, IMO (in my opinion).



  20. #20
    callalily Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    Dear Gary,

    IP was right. I am not a doctor and can only speculate on what's wrong
    with you. You need to consult your surgeon about possible side effects
    on mood, etc., and also a psych. because you have had mood problems
    before (altho you sound like you know more than they do, but you
    don't). And talk to any other doctor who has been following you.
    That's their job.

    [email protected] wrote:
    > i had rlrp on oct 31st.


    > a few yrs ago i tried ssri's to treat my neurotransmitter problems.
    > they worked great except for the erection and orgasm problms.


    I believe there are ways to counter those SE's. Ask your doctor.

    i then
    > switched to neuronton, which is a gaba based drug that kind of balances
    > the serotonin and the dopamine. it also worked without the sexual
    > problems. i then found a supplement that does the same thing and i
    > have doing great ever since until a few weeks after the surgery. my
    > hip had pain then my neck now my lower lumbar. all those symptoms are
    > the same as i had before i started the ssri's.


    Well, if the supps. aren't helping talk to your psych about this.
    Immediately.

    > i am now suspicious that i have a hormone impalance relating to my
    > neurotransmitters again.


    I knew I should not have used the word "hormone." It is confusing to me
    and probably to everybody else. Neurotransmitters are not hormones but
    are chemicals that relay messages in the brain.

    Gary, your suspicions are not enough! You have had a lot of things
    happen to you and you need the doctors to help you sort it out..

    i am now starting to increase the
    > dosage of gaba since i suspect it is neurotransmitter based.


    Gary, again, do not adjust the dosage of your medication by yourself!
    That is really a bad idea. Suspicions aren't enough. Talk to a
    doctor.

    when i
    > started the neurotin i saw 2 psychiatrists and had to plead with them
    > to switch me from the ssri's to neuronten.


    Well, since you have had the same symptoms before and have seen a psych
    about it, you should contact them and tell them which meds you've taken
    before. Telling us doesn't help because we are not docs. I was just
    suggesting a possibility to look into.
    >
    > gary
    >



  21. #21
    Heather Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    "callalily" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected] oups.com...
    >
    > when i
    >> started the neurotin i saw 2 psychiatrists and had to plead with them
    >> to switch me from the ssri's to neuronten.


    Gary.....do NOT self-medicate. I looked up this Neurontin because I
    have some understanding of SSRI drugs. This is NOT indicated as a
    treatment for seratonin deficiency, etc. In fact, see the bottom of my
    reply for a definition of what it is for.

    This is making me VERY nervous because my daughter takes SSRI drugs for
    the above-mentioned seratonin deficiency (Welbutrin at the moment) and I
    know they do have a lot of side effects (lack of interest in sex being
    one) and also that one has to be very careful with them.

    And I just had a bad reaction to an antibiotic for the past 24 hours and
    am very wary of drugs of any kind.

    The fact that you had to beg two psychiatrists to dispense this drug
    should be an alert that one shouldn't mess with dosages, etc.

    Please talk to your doctors......before upping your meds. It is your
    life that you are messing with, to put it bluntly.

    Heather

    Gabapentin (GA-ba-pen-tin) is used to help control some types of
    seizures in the treatment of epilepsy. This medicine cannot cure
    epilepsy and will only work to control seizures for as long as you
    continue to take it.

    This medicine is also used to manage a condition called postherpetic
    neuralgia (pain after “shingles”).



    >
    > Well, since you have had the same symptoms before and have seen a
    > psych
    > about it, you should contact them and tell them which meds you've
    > taken
    > before. Telling us doesn't help because we are not docs. I was just
    > suggesting a possibility to look into.
    >>
    >> gary
    >>

    >




  22. #22
    Mary Fisher Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    "Mark A" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected] ..
    > "Mary Fisher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:45672fca$0$760$[email protected] t...
    >>
    >> I wouldn't reply to anyone who used weak language though, what's wrong
    >> with a simple "What is MI?"
    >>
    >> Mary

    >
    >
    > That was not weak language. It was strong language.


    No, it's weak in that it's a substitute for the proper words.
    >
    > Since this a public forum, if you really care about helping others, then
    > people should cut back on the abbreviations and "inside lingo." MI was a
    > bit over the top for this forum, IMO (in my opinion).


    That's your opinion, I have a higher regard for the people in this group.
    Others do seem to know ...



  23. #23
    callalily Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    Dear all,

    I.P. Freely wrote:
    > callalily wrote:
    > > [A neurosurgeon] said all men experience some emotional distress
    > > as a result of suffering a loss or losses of various kinds after
    > > surgery

    >
    > Given his weasel-words, "some" and "various kinds", I don't think his
    > statement supports your more absolute version,


    Actually, the weasel words were mine. And he is a neuroscientist, not
    a neurosurgeon. He studies the brain. Actually, when he told me this
    he was even more emphatic than I was. As an example of what he
    actually said, here is something from an email he sent me:

    "It is my opinion that urologists consistently under-advise patients
    about the risks of ED and the psych. hardship it has on patients and
    their partners (particularly for patients on ADT). This is an area in
    which I am now doing research."

    I agree with him about that based on personal experience. Not being
    told about something beforehand can be distressing. Then, there is his
    word, "hardship" and harship usually leads to emotional stress..
    [Readers, keep in mind, this doesn't mean everybody has problems with
    ED or anything else].

    "All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate
    removed."

    Well, I should have qualified the "all" by saying in my opinion.
    You're right. There is a man -- I mean there are some men -- whom
    this doesn't apply too. You are a "man's man" and that's why you are
    exempt.

    First of all most people who have had any major surgery experience some
    emotional distress afterwords and anxiety beforehand. As far as losses
    or hardships, you mention a couple of them later in this post. Of
    course, the loss of this tiny piece of meat, as you put it, would
    probably not cause a whole lot of distress in itself. It's what happens
    afterwords.

    What every man will probably endure forex, is a loss of privacy (as you
    yourself mention), probably a loss of dignity (like having a pipe
    inserted into your penis, aka, a
    Foley catheter), a loss of continence and a loss of potency. These
    things may not last very long or may not be severe but I think even a
    tiny bit of it would probably cause some emotional distress.

    You yourself say this is a given, when you respond to G's comment about
    side effects. If you think I'm suggesting that people get upset or
    grieve over the loss of a walnut-sized "piece of meat", well, I'm not.


    It's just not universally true, as evidenced by several men here.

    So why don't they speak up? The two of them.

    I can't imagine any rational person being depressed over losing some
    obscure body part
    > that's harming or even killing him. If the part or the surgery causes collateral functional damage, that's a different story.


    Well, the surgery always causes collateral damage, no matter how small
    or how fleeting it is. You yourself mention loss of privacy, (dignity)
    impotence and incontinence., for example.

    > > the best thing for a man to do is to acknowledge it, grieve over it,
    > > and move on to have a productive and happy life.


    Well, if I said it I shouldn't have said it so conclusively. I'm not
    an expert on men's mental health. But the prof. said it, too, and he is
    a pca survivor of 6 years who has at least been to some support groups
    so I think he should know something about this subject. He is also a
    person who has very in-depth knowledge of neuroscience, biology and
    anatomy, for starters and he has been working for a while on studying
    the effects of pca treatment on the patient's physical and emotional
    being. But if you don't like his conclusions you don't have to buy
    them.
    >
    > I've tried a few times to grieve, or at least feel sad, over my father's
    > death decades ago simply because I thought I should. Nope; nothing
    > there. He was a drunken son of a bitch who cared about no one but
    > himself and beat my Mom. All that ended at his death. My brother agrees
    > completely. Compared to that, my cancerous prostate and colon, my
    > life-threatening left inner ear, my hernias, my wisdom teeth, my
    > shoulder repairs . . . NADA. Good riddance! Zero second thoughts.


    Maybe you don't grieve for those body parts -- (although I think
    somebody having these parts out might grieve to to an extent, without
    even knowing it) but you do grieve over the indignities or
    inconveniences their removal causes you. I would think having your
    left inner-ear taken out might cause a loss -- of balance, say.
    >
    > Grief is for LOSS of people, pets, and/or activities we love; we GAIN
    > with most surgeries. I haven't LOST a prostate or half my colon; I've
    > reGAINED my life.


    You can grieve over intangibles such as loss of dignity, forex, imo.
    True, I have said before that what you gain well makes up for your
    loss. When you get your first psa test and it comes out ok you forget
    about all the SE's. And most of this "collateral functional damage" is
    temporary. My husband said recently he can't even remember having ANY
    pain during his recovery.
    >
    > > He believes that men who don't feel anything of this sort are in denial.

    >
    > Of what? It's a piece of meat that, in this case, some dude said does
    > much more harm than good.


    Well, you later mention a few things that might happen as a consequence
    of getting this little piece of meat out that might be upsetting. You
    make a good point, though: RP is, IMO, a process, not a medical
    procedure that lasts a few hours. It's more than getting the meat
    out...
    >
    > > I asked [husband] if he had experienced any feelings of "loss" after his
    > > RP. He is not the type to be emotional about about anything (like IP?)

    >
    > I tear up or even cry at appropriate movies, at the bravery of soldiers,
    > at injured animals, etc., and will probably be very depressed when I can
    > no longer fly above the waves, but ... over a piece of MEAT?


    Well, I don't see you lettin' your hair down here. By the way, could
    you send me a list of the tearjerker movies? And as far as him not
    being emotional, he was the devil incarnate in the weeks after his
    surgery, grouching all the time. Fortunately, he soon got
    "unpossessed" and was back to his genial old self.
    >
    > > like most men he had kept it to himself.

    >
    > I'm just the opposite. I have no problems discussing my feelings about
    > anything with anyone who's interested.


    Oh yeah...about your leakage, lack of sexual function or the like. I
    can't help thinking that's not the norm.
    >
    > > I knew he must have had these feelings because I myself felt upset

    >
    > NOW we're gettin' somewhere. That's something women do often, and it's
    > called projection or transferrence of feelings.
    >

    Yes, NOW you have a point. And I only felt better when a man in
    another group said he felt like he had been "violated" and that was the
    exact word I was looking for to describe how I felt about what happened
    to Him. Like, how dare they lay a hand on him, there? The problem
    with your statement is that when asked, my husb. said he felt the same
    way as I did. He just didn't advertise it.

    About the "projection" and "transference" -- sounds like you've been in
    psychoanalysis. But I'm sure you must have acquired that lingo
    elsewhere. You are not the type to lie on a couch and talk to somebody
    about your unconscious feelings. I'm sure you'd rather be windsurfing
    And good for you.

    > > So the message is you don't have to be a sissy to feel at least a
    > > little bad about somebody messing around with your "manhood."

    >
    > If "manhood" = parts, they FIXED my "manhood", because it was trying to
    > kill me. That's a GOOD thing, I THINK.


    If "manhood" refers to one's psyche, that's in our head and heart,
    not our crotch or even our pants.

    You're absolutely right. I apologize for that. LIke you said, manhood
    is more than the sum of your genitals. I didn't mean to imply that it
    wasn't; I used the word "manhood," because in slang, it may refer to a
    certain part of the body. That's all. What I meant to say was messing
    with your private parts.

    > If my "manhood" is the ability to have orgasms, they're still great.
    > Sorry, but many of us just don't define ourselves by our crotches, or
    > even what hangs from them, let alone by more obscure parts.


    Well, good for you. But it's unfortunate that a lot of women do define
    you that way based on what they hear, read, etc. Maybe that's why we
    sometimes project the wrong things.
    >
    > > Gary has been talking here about his distress about being incontinent,
    > > his worry about his future sexual function

    >
    > Now THAT I could understand. But:> a. You and your neuro friend have been saying that surgery, per se, > especially if it remove some meat, always causes depression.
    > b. Neither Gary's topic or post mentioned any of that.


    No, we have not. Both of us think of surgery as a process, not as
    something that's over in a few hours. I've said that many times. And
    Gary has talked a lot about being very distressed over the SE's, and
    from what i've seen it's more than usual. If not depressed he is
    certainly nervous about certain things, like his future sex life.
    >
    > > I.P. said
    > >> As some of us, including myself, have said here, PC is a just a
    > >> technical challenge to be solved as best as we can so we can
    > >> fugheddaboutit and get on with the rest of our lives. My reactions were:
    > >> "Crap! Another hassle, and a big one.",

    >
    > > Not everything that's right for you is right
    > > for everyone else. Post-RP recovery is not "one size fits all."

    >
    > Never said it was. The only "one size fits all" statements here came
    > from you and your neuro friend. My statement began with "As SOME of us ..."


    True. And it is because we both believe that doesn't necessarily make
    it true. But why is it that I haven't heard from more men of your
    size?
    >
    > > In the aftermath of somebody messing around with your genitals, with
    > > a knife, you are supposed to feel hunky dory, right?

    >
    > Except for the "supposed" part, Hell, yes. That was our objective, and
    > we achieved it. I quit regarding my genitals as "mine", at least while
    > in the hospital, about the third time I awoke in the morning to find a
    > new gaggle of strangers staring at my purple, swollen, shortened,
    > sweaty, bloody, crusty, flaccid, intubated crotch.


    Well, it's sad that you had to give up ownership of your genitals, even
    if it was only in the hospital. And I can assure you that my husband
    was very distressed about those same things -- especially when females
    were looking at him.

    Loss of privacy or dignity can be very painful. I myself have noticed
    that since I have been giving men "advice" about issues like priapism,
    ED and such, i have lost every shred of modesty, privacy, boundaries,
    embarrassment, shame, etc. that I had previously. I don't think two
    years ago I could have even said the word "penis" (well, maybe because
    it's so clinical). On the one hand this feels sad but it also has been
    worth it, at least for me.
    >
    > > IMO you are/were not "in touch with your feelings"

    >
    > I may not be in touch with YOUR projected feelings, but I have a pretty
    > good handle on my own.
    >

    True. I don't have a clue about what it feels like to be a man and so
    I have to make do with what i think men are feeling. And it's often
    wrong. But sometimes women can get men to do the talking, which might
    in intself be a good thing. Someone wrote to me: "As so often happens
    on these lists, it's the women, not the men, who talk about the
    emotional and sexual issues most openly and honestly."

    > > most likely the neurotransmitters ... have gotten a little

    sluggish
    > > could benefit from a chemical boost ... with mood-lifting drugs

    >
    > I don't do medical diagnoses or prescribe meds. I just brainstorm
    > possibilities for the pt and his doctors to consider.


    So do I and I was just expressing an opinion but maybe I did it too
    strongly. It turns out that i was right on the mark, that G. had had
    issues w/low mood before and he knew more about the subject than I did.
    But from what he wrote afterwards, he certainly took that advice
    seriously...
    >
    > I.P.


    Best to you.

    Leah


  24. #24
    Mark A Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    "Mary Fisher" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
    > No, it's weak in that it's a substitute for the proper words.


    Rad-grad and MI are not proper words in any dictionary I have ever seen.
    Let's quit using esoteric lingo and use English instead.



  25. #25
    I.P. Freely Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    callalily wrote:

    > I.P. Freely wrote:


    >> It's just not universally true [that all men are distressed over
    >> surgery], as evidenced by several men here.

    >
    > So why don't they speak up?
    > why is it that I haven't heard from more men ...


    They have. That's how I knew about them. You may have missed it, or not
    been here yet.

    SNIPped a bunch of circular arguments about grief

    > About the "projection" and "transference" -- sounds like you've been in
    > psychoanalysis. But I'm sure you must have acquired that lingo
    > elsewhere. You are not the type to lie on a couch and talk to somebody
    > about your unconscious feelings.


    Took a psychology course because it's interesting.
    Encountered the words in numerous management and other courses.
    Reading.
    And, oh yes . . . several months of lying on a behavioral psychologist's
    couch once a week. I'll take help anyplace I can get it.

    A funny story about that: I was there trying to determine why I had, in
    some circumstances, recently begun to talk so rapidly I often ran words
    together to the point of incoherency. When months of behavioral analysis
    failed to reveal any answers, we switched to group therapy. After half a
    dozen sessions of endless round robin discussions of each other's
    problems, the doc said to me in the group, "Your problem is not
    observable in this scenario." Their nearly unanimous response? "We
    thought you were another doctor, not a patient".

    Talk about the inmates running the asylum . . .

    > Gary has talked a lot about being very distressed over the SE's
    > ... about his distress about being incontinent,
    > ... about his future sexual function


    No, he hasn't, at least not in this thread. He asked specifically about
    muscle tension, spasm, migrating bone pain, problems with standing,
    neurotransmitters, etc. Those aren't RP SE's "all" or even "many"
    successful RP pts get.

    > Well, it's sad that you had to give up ownership of your genitals, even
    > if it was only in the hospital. And I can assure you that my husband
    > was very distressed about those same things -- especially when females
    > were looking at him.


    It's sort of like lying on my side with a scope up my rear end, blowing
    CO2 out constantly: I preferred my job to theirs hands down. And female
    uros have seen more male crotches than I have; it's their job and
    they're welcome to it, especially given the state mine was in that week.
    I gave up nothing, in fact GAINED (multiple opinions and insights
    about my progress), just as Bill Gates' wealth detracts not one cent
    from my income and in fact adds to it in countless ways. My primary
    regret was that three of the uros and nurses were gorgeous, and here I
    couldn't have "shown any appreciation" even if I HADN'T been on morphine.

    I was changing out of my swim suit at a lake years ago, with a towel
    wrapped around my waist, surrounded by strangers of at least two genders
    and many ages on the beach and on fishing boats nearby. As I bent down
    to pull my suit off my feet, one ankle rolled off a rock, causing me to
    yell and jerk in pain and reflex, causing my towel to drop to the ground
    just as a dozen strangers looked up to see what the yell was about. Some
    people got mooned, some got a Full Monty. There was no point getting
    embarrassed, particularly since the water was not cold, so I thought it
    was as funny as they did.

    > Loss of privacy or dignity can be very painful.


    Dignity's address is adjacent to that of manhood, tucked up into our
    heads, and privacy went up with my bedsheet after females were involved
    in two hernia surgeries, several colonoscopies, many DREs, a bladder
    endoscopy, a prostate bx, many turn-your-head-and-cough exams, a
    prostatectomy, colon resection, and even a few rolls in the hay.
    Besides, have you HEARD how young people TALK these days? '-)

    > I myself have noticed
    > that since I have been giving men "advice" about issues like priapism,
    > ED and such, i have lost every shred of modesty, privacy, boundaries,
    > embarrassment, shame, etc. that I had previously.


    And has that made you LESS of a person, or MORE?

    I.P.

  26. #26
    I.P. Freely Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    Mark A wrote:
    > "Mary Fisher" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
    >> No, it's weak in that it's a substitute for the proper words.

    >
    > Rad-grad and MI are not proper words in any dictionary I have ever seen.
    > Let's quit using esoteric lingo and use English instead.


    At least when the lingo and acronyms and abbreviations apply to PC (or
    PCa or pca or ca or "the beast"), a pt is equipped to talk PC seriously
    or even THINK about making ANY decisions only after having read a PC
    book or three, by which time they understand the language. We try to
    break newbies in gently, but having to translate and explain every term
    endlessly overloads the writers, gives some newbies the impression they
    can skate through this process without reading several books and
    abstracts and websites, and would lead to confusion due to different
    interpretations. Can you imagine having to describe or discuss each pt's
    grade, stage, PSAV, % free, met recurrence likelihood, and many other
    factors in plain English rather than in prostatespeak? We'd bring the
    internet to its knees.

    Expecting this forum to replace due diligence (i.e, reading several PC
    books, many study abstracts, and several websites) is critical; it
    teaches pts how to fish, and answers questions they would never have
    thought to ask. Hand-feeding them with kid gloves keeps then in the
    dark, dependent on the fish scraps we give them.

    No, MI isn't prostatespeak. But its interpretation isn't important to
    the discussion, either.

    I.P.

  27. #27
    Tdub Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    > All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate
    > removed.


    I didn't. Just happy to be rid of a dysfunctional organ. Agree with IP
    on the tendancy of people to project (superimpose) their feelings onto
    others. People vary in how much they run their lives on intellect vs.
    emotion. We all use both but, IMO, those who over-rely on the emotional
    aspect feel everyone else has the same feelings that they do, and look
    at things the same way they do.


  28. #28
    Mark A Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    "I.P. Freely" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:VGM9h.1753$[email protected]..
    > No, MI isn't prostatespeak. But its interpretation isn't important to the
    > discussion, either.
    >
    > I.P.


    One can only determine that the interpretation of MI is not relevant to this
    forum once one knows what it is (and that it is not directly related to a
    discussion of prostate cancer).



    I don't think "rad-grad" is particularly helpful either, given the very
    different types of radiation treatment available (and the differing side
    effects of each). That does not mean one has to pontificate and fill up the
    internet (your kidding, right?), but just the short simple facts are all
    that is needed.



    What keeps people in the dark is the secret lingo and code words that people
    use because they are apparently too lazy to type out the English word, or
    sometimes too embarrassed to say what they mean. This causes massive
    miscommunication, misunderstanding, and spreads more fear, shame, and
    embarrassment. It is no wonder that patients are not able to get reliable
    information about side-effects of treatment.



    I will give you an example. Some people say "dry" when they mean they are
    continent with regard to urinary function, others say "dry" when they mean
    no semen during orgasm, and others use "dry" to mean completely impotent.
    Let's cut out the code words and say exactly what is happening to us in
    plain simple English. Come out from under the shadows into the real world
    were we can discuss these issues as adults.



  29. #29
    I.P. Freely Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    Tdub wrote:
    Calli lily wrote
    >> All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate
    >> removed.

    >
    > I didn't. Just happy to be rid of a dysfunctional organ. Agree with IP
    > on the tendancy of people to project (superimpose) their feelings onto
    > others. People vary in how much they run their lives on intellect vs.
    > emotion. We all use both but, IMO, those who over-rely on the emotional
    > aspect feel everyone else has the same feelings that they do, and look
    > at things the same way they do.


    Now why can't *I* explain things that concisely, so we could all get to
    bed earlier? Maybe it's partly because some people question almost
    everything I say, adding to the snowball.

    I.P.

  30. #30
    I.P. Freely Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    Mark A wrote:
    > I don't think "rad-grad" is particularly helpful either


    <Chuckle> I haven't a clue what "rad-grad" means.

    I.P.

  31. #31
    Mark A Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    "I.P. Freely" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:WZP9h.589$[email protected]..
    > Mark A wrote:
    >> I don't think "rad-grad" is particularly helpful either

    >
    > <Chuckle> I haven't a clue what "rad-grad" means.
    >
    > I.P.




  32. #32
    Mary Fisher Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    "I.P. Freely" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:WZP9h.589$[email protected]..
    > Mark A wrote:
    >> I don't think "rad-grad" is particularly helpful either

    >
    > <Chuckle> I haven't a clue what "rad-grad" means.


    I've never seen it.

    Mary



  33. #33
    Mary Fisher Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    "callalily" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected] ups.com...
    > Dear all,
    >
    > I.P. Freely wrote:
    >> callalily wrote:
    >> > [A neurosurgeon] said all men experience some emotional distress
    >> > as a result of suffering a loss or losses of various kinds after
    >> > surgery

    >>
    >> Given his weasel-words, "some" and "various kinds", I don't think his
    >> statement supports your more absolute version,

    >
    > Actually, the weasel words were mine. And he is a neuroscientist, not
    > a neurosurgeon. He studies the brain. Actually, when he told me this
    > he was even more emphatic than I was. As an example of what he
    > actually said, here is something from an email he sent me:
    >
    > "It is my opinion that urologists consistently under-advise patients
    > about the risks of ED and the psych. hardship it has on patients and
    > their partners (particularly for patients on ADT). This is an area in
    > which I am now doing research."


    We feel that we WERE fully informed, our surgeon spent a very long time with
    us and explained everything from his point of view and answered all our
    questions, fully and honestly.
    >
    >
    > "All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate
    > removed."
    >
    > Well, I should have qualified the "all" by saying in my opinion.
    > You're right. There is a man -- I mean there are some men -- whom
    > this doesn't apply too. You are a "man's man" and that's why you are
    > exempt.


    Spouse has never been called a man's man :-) But he accepts what is
    inevitable in life.
    >


    > What every man will probably endure forex, is a loss of privacy (as you
    > yourself mention), probably a loss of dignity (like having a pipe
    > inserted into your penis, aka, a
    > Foley catheter), a loss of continence and a loss of potency. These
    > things may not last very long or may not be severe but I think even a
    > tiny bit of it would probably cause some emotional distress.


    I don't think that's undignified, it's part of the healing process so is
    good.
    >
    >
    > It's just not universally true, as evidenced by several men here.
    >
    > So why don't they speak up? The two of them.


    When we speak up we're not treated kindly. It's as though we're freaks,
    which we're not, just rational people who are prepared to accept short term
    difficulties for the benefit they give.
    >
    > I can't imagine any rational person being depressed over losing some
    > obscure body part
    >> that's harming or even killing him. If the part or the surgery causes
    >> collateral functional damage, that's a different story.


    Nor can I.
    >
    > Well, the surgery always causes collateral damage, no matter how small
    > or how fleeting it is. You yourself mention loss of privacy, (dignity)
    > impotence and incontinence., for example.


    Well, you have the choice of whether to risk collateral damage and the loss
    of the other things which might (or might not) be important but the
    alternative is unthinkable.
    >
    >> > the best thing for a man to do is to acknowledge it, grieve over it,
    >> > and move on to have a productive and happy life.

    >
    > Well, if I said it I shouldn't have said it so conclusively. I'm not
    > an expert on men's mental health. But the prof. said it, too, and he is
    > a pca survivor of 6 years who has at least been to some support groups
    > so I think he should know something about this subject. He is also a
    > person who has very in-depth knowledge of neuroscience, biology and
    > anatomy, for starters and he has been working for a while on studying
    > the effects of pca treatment on the patient's physical and emotional
    > being. But if you don't like his conclusions you don't have to buy
    > them.


    No, he's probably right for some men, perhaps even most men, but not all.
    Some of us are grateful for the gift of life and would undergo many trials
    for it.
    >>
    >> I've tried a few times to grieve, or at least feel sad, over my father's
    >> death decades ago simply because I thought I should. Nope; nothing
    >> there. He was a drunken son of a bitch who cared about no one but
    >> himself and beat my Mom. All that ended at his death. My brother agrees
    >> completely. Compared to that, my cancerous prostate and colon, my
    >> life-threatening left inner ear, my hernias, my wisdom teeth, my
    >> shoulder repairs . . . NADA. Good riddance! Zero second thoughts.

    >
    > Maybe you don't grieve for those body parts -- (although I think
    > somebody having these parts out might grieve to to an extent, without
    > even knowing it) but you do grieve over the indignities or
    > inconveniences their removal causes you. I would think having your
    > left inner-ear taken out might cause a loss -- of balance, say.


    Again, it's better than the alternative. I didn't grieve for the loss of
    part of my breast, I wouldn't grieve for the loss of my uterus (which might
    happen) or a finger or arm or leg - the only thing I'd grieve for is the
    loss of my husband and that would be a selfish grieving.
    >>
    >> Grief is for LOSS of people, pets, and/or activities we love; we GAIN
    >> with most surgeries. I haven't LOST a prostate or half my colon; I've
    >> reGAINED my life.

    >
    > You can grieve over intangibles such as loss of dignity, forex, imo.


    I think you're too concerned about dignity and privacy on others' behalves.
    We don't all think like that.

    >>
    >> > I asked [husband] if he had experienced any feelings of "loss" after
    >> > his
    >> > RP. He is not the type to be emotional about about anything (like IP?)

    >>

    ....
    >>
    >> > like most men he had kept it to himself.


    Perhaps it might have been better if he hadn't. Mind didn't.
    >>
    >> I'm just the opposite. I have no problems discussing my feelings about
    >> anything with anyone who's interested.

    >
    > Oh yeah...about your leakage, lack of sexual function or the like. I
    > can't help thinking that's not the norm.


    Spouse and I tell everyone we meet. We think that education is important.
    >>
    >> > I knew he must have had these feelings because I myself felt upset

    >>
    >> NOW we're gettin' somewhere. That's something women do often, and it's
    >> called projection or transferrence of feelings.


    OY! Not all of us :-)
    >>

    > Yes, NOW you have a point. And I only felt better when a man in
    > another group said he felt like he had been "violated" and that was the
    > exact word I was looking for to describe how I felt about what happened
    > to Him. Like, how dare they lay a hand on him, there?


    To give him extra quality and perhaps span of life.

    >
    > About the "projection" and "transference" -- sounds like you've been in
    > psychoanalysis.


    Um - in Yorkshire we'd say that it takes one to know one :-)

    >
    >> > So the message is you don't have to be a sissy to feel at least a
    >> > little bad about somebody messing around with your "manhood."

    >>
    >> If "manhood" = parts, they FIXED my "manhood", because it was trying to
    >> kill me. That's a GOOD thing, I THINK.

    >
    > If "manhood" refers to one's psyche, that's in our head and heart,
    > not our crotch or even our pants.
    >
    > You're absolutely right. I apologize for that. LIke you said, manhood
    > is more than the sum of your genitals. I didn't mean to imply that it
    > wasn't; I used the word "manhood," because in slang, it may refer to a
    > certain part of the body. That's all. What I meant to say was messing
    > with your private parts.


    Perhaps humans in the west are too hung up on our 'private parts'. Why
    should they be private? Amimals' genitals aren't - except in birds.
    >


    >>
    >> > In the aftermath of somebody messing around with your genitals, with
    >> > a knife, you are supposed to feel hunky dory, right?

    >>
    >> Except for the "supposed" part, Hell, yes. That was our objective, and
    >> we achieved it. I quit regarding my genitals as "mine", at least while
    >> in the hospital, about the third time I awoke in the morning to find a
    >> new gaggle of strangers staring at my purple, swollen, shortened,
    >> sweaty, bloody, crusty, flaccid, intubated crotch.


    One of our sons was delighted at being able to tell his friends that his Dad
    had a cock like an aubergine. He's kept looking at it and is disappointed
    now that it's not spectacular.
    >
    > Well, it's sad that you had to give up ownership of your genitals, even
    > if it was only in the hospital. And I can assure you that my husband
    > was very distressed about those same things -- especially when females
    > were looking at him.


    He should get a life.

    Oh! He's got one - thanks in part to those females.
    >
    > Loss of privacy or dignity can be very painful. I myself have noticed
    > that since I have been giving men "advice" about issues like priapism,
    > ED and such, i have lost every shred of modesty, privacy, boundaries,
    > embarrassment, shame, etc. that I had previously. I don't think two
    > years ago I could have even said the word "penis" (well, maybe because
    > it's so clinical).


    'Penis' clinical? What did you call it before then?

    Mary



  34. #34
    gary Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    i had rlrp on oct 31st.
    pain in my hip and lower lumbar is preventing me from walking forany
    length of time.
    i am being told that i need to walk in order to help my recovery.
    one of the posts here stated that Walch had done some reasearch which
    found that the prostate seems to produce hormones for the
    hypothalmus/pituitiary axis.
    that leads me to suspect that i have a hormone imbalance which is
    causing the same muscle tension/spazm symptoms i had before going on
    ssri's.
    the consensus of suggestions i have received here so far suggest seeing
    a psyche.
    i have had numerous unsuccessful sessions with several of them in the
    past. they only seem to understand ssri's, which is the last thing i
    want do to, due to the sexual side effects.
    the nerontin and eventually L-Theanine worked miracles, no thanks to
    them.
    do you think i am going back to them again?
    increasing the dosage of L-Theanine does not seem to be working this
    time, even though my mood is great.
    i am now trying a valarian and magnesium combination which worked
    before i started the ssri's. so far seems to help. i need to give it
    time before i can tell how effective it is.
    gary




    Mark A wrote:
    > "I.P. Freely" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > newsqw9h.322$[email protected]..
    > > Even if you were a uro onc - which your next comment contradicts --
    > > prescribing a cancer treatment from a few paragraphs on the internet is
    > > way out of line.
    > > I.P.

    >
    > Who said anything about prescribing a cancer treatment? However, it is
    > useful to find out what kind of side-effects patients encounter from the
    > various types of PC treatments. I have extensively researched the literature
    > on this subject, and the amount of accurate information directly from
    > patients is severely lacking (even though doctors are more than willing to
    > volunteer what they think their patients have experienced).
    >
    > With regard to evaluating various treatments in terms of their efficacy
    > against cancer, I would certainly consult a doctor. But in terms of
    > evaluating what the side-effects were, in addition to hearing what a doctor
    > says, I also like to hear it directory from patients.
    >
    > So when someone posts about their experience with side-effects, it is
    > important to know (at a bare minimum) whether the radiation was IMRT, Seeds,
    > or both.



  35. #35
    Steve Kramer Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?



    "gary" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected] oups.com...

    > pain in my hip and lower lumbar is preventing me from walking forany
    > length of time.
    > i am being told that i need to walk in order to help my recovery.


    Can you swim? Ride a bike? Water arobics?

    Anything you can to do get your heart pumping and endorfins released is
    going to help you physically and mentally.


    > i have had numerous unsuccessful sessions with several of them in the
    > past. they only seem to understand ssri's, which is the last thing i
    > want do to, due to the sexual side effects.


    You make is sound like you are prone to depression (if I understand what
    you're saying). Remember, depression is often or always a result of a
    physical occurrence in the brain. We take meds for any other physical
    occurrence that gets out of control, yet we resist fixing the organ that
    controls all the others in our body.

    My recommendations:

    1. Have your hip looked at and if they find nothing wrong, walk.
    2. If that doesn't help your depression, seek help.



    --
    PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
    Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
    RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
    PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75
    EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
    PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
    Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
    2/06, 6/06
    PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
    Casodex added daily 07/06
    PSA <0.04
    Non Illegitimi Carborundum



  36. #36
    callalily Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    Hello all,

    Tdub wrote:
    > > All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate
    > > removed.

    >
    > I didn't. Just happy to be rid of a dysfunctional organ. Agree with IP
    > on the tendancy of people to project (superimpose) their feelings onto
    > others. People vary in how much they run their lives on intellect vs.
    > emotion. We all use both but, IMO, those who over-rely on the emotional
    > aspect feel everyone else has the same feelings that they do, and look
    > at things the same way they do.


    Thanks for the perspective. I still think most men experience some
    emotional distress after RP, especially if they have had to deal with
    issues like impotence and incontince. I base this on what I have heard
    personally from men.

    I thought about this whole issue for a while and I realized that one
    problem I have is not focusing enough on the curative, lifesaving
    aspect of these treatments. I just take this for granted. And I focus
    on the harm and distress they cause and consider the doctors
    practically evil for what they do. I guess that really doesn't make
    sense.

    I have never faced a life-threatening illness so I don't know what that
    feels like. I do know that when my husb and I were at the uro's office
    at the time of diagnosis and he outliined all the possible side effects
    of surgery I was hoping my husband would say, "No, thank you." I'm
    embarrassed to say it but I was the one who asked the uro, "If he
    doesn't get any treatment, how long can he live...." The uro
    responded, "I dont know...maybe five years."

    My thought on hearing this was that maybe it would be better to have
    five years of a normal life and a good sex life rather than going
    through all this.

    However, here's my point. His reaction to hearing about surgery, side
    effects and all was to say, "Yes. How soon can you do it?" He was
    focused on saving his life and he did not hesitate for a nanosecond
    before making his choice. You could have told him the treatment was to
    hang him by the balls from the ceiling and he would have agreed.

    He is certainly not emotionally distressed a year after surgery because
    he's glad to be alive. However, he did admit to feeling a loss when he
    became impotent and I think he's still working it out. Hopefully he
    will regain his EF.

    Best to you.

    Leah


  37. #37
    I.P. Freely Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    callalily wrote:
    > I still think most men experience some
    > emotional distress after RP, especially if they have had to deal with
    > issues like impotence and incontince.


    Well, at least your position has softened from "ALL men are DEPRESSED by
    SURGERY itself" to "MOST men . . . SOME DISTRESS . . . from IMPOTENCE
    and INCONTINENCE". Thats a start.

    > I thought about this whole issue for a while and I realized that one
    > problem I have is not focusing enough on the curative, lifesaving
    > aspect of these treatments.


    Exactly. It's not the SURGERY that causes our problems, but the CANCER,
    just as it's not the GUN that shoots us, but the bad guy. Heck, the
    surgery is the GOOD thing about PC, because it's what cures us (we hope).

    > I have never faced a life-threatening illness so I don't know what that
    > feels like.


    One thing I can guarantee you is that it feels very differently to
    different people. Touchy-feely artists and pragmatic engineers, for
    example, live and feel and think in different worlds, if not galaxies,
    on many issues. The differences are often so profound that they
    sometimes may as well have a whole Wall of Babel between them.

    Within a few hours after an ambulance ride a decade ago, 5 neurosurgeons
    interviewed me. Finally, I overheard a neuro discussing my case quietly
    with his dept chief down the hall. I walked up to them and insisted they
    fill me in. Their consensus was that I was probably experiencing brain
    stem emboli, one of which would probably kill me as we spoke or tomorrow
    or at least by next week, and that further testing would definitively
    confirm or change their tentative diagnosis. While this was chilling for
    a moment, it was also out of our hands; I'd die ... or not ... but there
    was no reason to actually get excited or depressed, let alone actually
    lose sleep over it, unless the special MRI in a couple of days confirmed
    their strong suspicions.

    It ruled out the emboli hypothesis, and this was about the time I
    generated and gave them my own symptoms vs causes matrix of the whole
    years-long problem. That finally helped them isolate my Meniere's (inner
    ear) disease and achieve the best solution possible.

    HEY, DOCS: TALK TO YOUR DAMNED PATIENTS. We aren't idiots, we have more
    motivation and time than you do to fix what ails us, and many of us are
    quite capable of discussing serious crap rationally.

    When the ENT surgeons described one of my two options -- opening my
    skull, shoving the brain aside, reaching past it to sever a nerve
    forward and beneath it -- I said, "I hope you wash your hands first",
    whereupon they realized I wasn't too upset about all this crap.

    That's what the earlier, asymptomatic phases of PC are, inherently:
    crap. It doesn't HAVE to be any more than time-consuming hassle -- i.e.,
    CRAP, with numbers in this case (grade, stage, statistics) -- until
    symptoms or tx SEs actually impact us physically. Some people just don't
    get excited about it at that stage, some can't avoid getting excited
    about it because they're wired that way, and still others work
    themselves into frenzies. I suspect that many people in the latter
    category could really improve their attitude if they realized they are
    IN that category.

    One of my Tee shirts sort of sums it up: "WINDSURFING (or insert your
    own passion here) is life; the rest is details." Until my PC actually
    impacts my life significantly, it's just a detail ... just crap. My wife
    and I still love each other, we still have orgasms, and pads are but a
    minor nuisance for me. Hell, she's worn 'em -- or a substitute -- for 50
    years and counting.

    For now, my PC just gives me advance notice on how and when I may die:
    pretty horribly (or suddenly) and in 8-12 years. HEY! I'VE GOT 8-12
    YEARS LEFT, maybe including 6-8 years of doing the things I love best!
    Beats not knowing, you might say, and beats the hell out of abandoning
    my wife a decade ago due to a brain stem emboli.

    Now, Leah; do we think in the same language?

    I.P.

  38. #38
    Steve Kramer Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?


    "I.P. Freely" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:%juah.138$[email protected]..

    > Exactly. It's not the SURGERY that causes our problems, but the CANCER,
    > just as it's not the GUN that shoots us, but the bad guy. Heck, the
    > surgery is the GOOD thing about PC, because it's what cures us (we hope).


    I don't know about the analogy. I think the cancer would be analogous to
    the bullet and the surgery to... well... surgery. I would agree that of all
    the people I've seen shot, all were shot by a person. But, I digress....

    I absolutely agree that surgery caused me no concern at all. I had so much
    confidence in modern medicine, that I knew I would live through it. And
    afterwards, I was shocked about the painlessness of it all.

    Nope. Back then, my depressor was death, short and simple. I wasn't ready
    for death and was afraid that it might be incurable. Of course, it
    eventually was dx'd as incurable, but by then I was ready.





    --
    PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
    Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
    RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
    PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75
    EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
    PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
    Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
    2/06, 6/06
    PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
    Casodex added daily 07/06
    PSA <0.04
    Non Illegitimi Carborundum



  39. #39
    I.P. Freely Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    Steve Kramer wrote:
    > my depressor was death, short and simple.


    It's gonna happen anyway, and within 20 years for most people our age
    even without PC. We may as well concentrate of LIFE rather than death
    (and make sure the wife knows where to whack the furnace when it balks).

    I'll get back with a reality check when mine returns, but having already
    been pronounced "doomed" 2 or 3 times, I may have some cushion.

    > I wasn't ready for death and was afraid that it might be incurable.
    > it eventually was dx'd as incurable, but by then I was ready.


    Could you share with us what changed? I'm guessing many inquiring,
    depressed minds want to know.

    I.P.

  40. #40
    Bob Anthony Guest

    Default Re: does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?

    I.P.

    As I have stated approximately two years ago, you should write a book
    from the patient's perspective. You are a genuine natural writer and
    grab attention immediately. Hell, when I'm feeling a bit down, I always
    feel better after reading your posts/responses. This was a great
    example! (It's not good to be too PC about PC.) Thanks.

    B.A.

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