I'd love to hear Ed Friedman's opinion on this genistein story

Here's another story confusing my feeble brain about genistein.

http://tinyurl.com/2txlm5

The March 15, 2008 issue of the journal Cancer Research published the
finding of a team from Northwestern University in Illinois that
genistein, an antioxidant compound that occurs in soybeans, almost
completely prevented prostate cancer from spreading in mice in whom
cancerous human tissue was implanted. The study is the first to show
that genistein can halt prostate cancer metastasis in a living
organism.

Raymond C. Bergan, MD of Northwestern's Robert H. Lurie Comprehensive
Cancer Center and his colleagues implanted an aggressive human form of
prostate cancer into several groups of mice and gave some of the
animals an amount of genistein that elevated blood concentrations to
levels comparable to those measured in humans following the
consumption of soy foods. While genistein did not reduce prostate
tumor size, spread of the disease to the lungs, a common site of
metastasis, was reduced by 96 percent compared with animals that did
not receive genistein. A repeat of the experiment elicited the same
result.

In previous research conducted by Dr Bergan's team using prostate
cancer cell cultures, it was discovered that genistein prevents the
detachment of cancer cells from a primary tumor and blocks cell
invasion. This is accomplished by the inhibition of the activation of
molecules called p38 MAP kinases which are involved in the activation
of proteins that loosen cancerous cells from tumors and cause them to
migrate. "In culture, you can actually see that when genistein is
introduced, cells flatten themselves in order to spread out and stick
strongly to nearby cells," Dr Bergan commented.

Surprisingly, the current investigation found that animals that
received genistein had higher levels of expression of genes involved
in cancer cell migration. "What we think is happening here is that the
cells we put in the mice normally like to move," Dr Bergan explained.
"When genistein restricted their ability to do so, they tried to
compensate by producing more protein involved in migration. But
genistein prevented those proteins from being activated. This is
really a lesson for researchers who depend on biomarker studies to
test whether a treatment is working. They need to be aware that those
biomarkers might be telling only half of the story."

"These impressive results give us hope that genistein might show some
effect in preventing the spread of prostate cancer in patients," Dr
Bergan concluded. "Diet can affect cancer and it doesn't do it by
magic. Certain chemicals have beneficial effects and now we have all
the preclinical studies we need to suggest genistein might be a very
promising chemopreventive drug."

Anyone care to comment?

John

On Mar 14, 7:36 pm, JohnHace <jo...@amcoex.com> wrote:
> Here's another story confusing my feeble brain about genistein.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2txlm5
> ...
> ... an amount of genistein that elevated blood concentrations to
> levels comparable to those measured in humans following the
> consumption of soy foods. While genistein did not reduce prostate
> tumor size, spread of the disease to the lungs, a common site of
> metastasis, was reduced by 96 percent compared with animals that did
> not receive genistein. A repeat of the experiment elicited the same
> result.

This is certainly very exciting. But we have to be cautious.
I'm sure that many cancer patients have eaten soy products
without noticing any benefit.

Is it only spread to the lungs that is inhibited? Is it only
inhibited for a short period? It is only in mice?

....

> Surprisingly, the current investigation found that animals that
> received genistein had higher levels of expression of genes involved
> in cancer cell migration. "What we think is happening here is that the
> cells we put in the mice normally like to move," Dr Bergan explained.
> "When genistein restricted their ability to do so, they tried to
> compensate by producing more protein involved in migration. But
> genistein prevented those proteins from being activated. This is
> really a lesson for researchers who depend on biomarker studies to
> test whether a treatment is working. They need to be aware that those
> biomarkers might be telling only half of the story."
....

This makes me think of the Nestin and p53 issues we discussed
recently. The presence of specific chemicals associated with
metastatic cancer does not, by itself, prove that a patient is in
trouble. In these mice, genistein appeared to INCREASE the
quantity of chemicals associated with metastasis, while reducing
the amount of actual metastasis.

The cancer disease process is so incredibly complicated, with so
many biochemical pathways, that we can't afford to generalize too
much from what happens with one chemical. When it comes to
picking treatments, I think we still have to look at the big
picture of long term survival statistics in order to get our best
guide for what to do.

Alan

Just an off comment. My Medical Oncologist says they can kill cancer and
have been able to for 25 years. The trick is finding the right dosage with
out killing the human. He tells me of some research that he is doing that
anyway you slice and dice the tumor in a mouse, the tumor is dead after
treatment.... tumor stll there, only dead.

One day, he will find the right combination and dosages to not kill us
humans.



GD
"JohnHace" <johnh@amcoex.com> wrote in message
news:e233099f-c1c0-499f-9a19-a93db3a31f22@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Here's another story confusing my feeble brain about genistein.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2txlm5
>
> The March 15, 2008 issue of the journal Cancer Research published the
> finding of a team from Northwestern University in Illinois that
> genistein, an antioxidant compound that occurs in soybeans, almost
> completely prevented prostate cancer from spreading in mice in whom
> cancerous human tissue was implanted. The study is the first to show
> that genistein can halt prostate cancer metastasis in a living
> organism.
>
> Raymond C. Bergan, MD of Northwestern's Robert H. Lurie Comprehensive
> Cancer Center and his colleagues implanted an aggressive human form of
> prostate cancer into several groups of mice and gave some of the
> animals an amount of genistein that elevated blood concentrations to
> levels comparable to those measured in humans following the
> consumption of soy foods. While genistein did not reduce prostate
> tumor size, spread of the disease to the lungs, a common site of
> metastasis, was reduced by 96 percent compared with animals that did
> not receive genistein. A repeat of the experiment elicited the same
> result.
>
> In previous research conducted by Dr Bergan's team using prostate
> cancer cell cultures, it was discovered that genistein prevents the
> detachment of cancer cells from a primary tumor and blocks cell
> invasion. This is accomplished by the inhibition of the activation of
> molecules called p38 MAP kinases which are involved in the activation
> of proteins that loosen cancerous cells from tumors and cause them to
> migrate. "In culture, you can actually see that when genistein is
> introduced, cells flatten themselves in order to spread out and stick
> strongly to nearby cells," Dr Bergan commented.
>
> Surprisingly, the current investigation found that animals that
> received genistein had higher levels of expression of genes involved
> in cancer cell migration. "What we think is happening here is that the
> cells we put in the mice normally like to move," Dr Bergan explained.
> "When genistein restricted their ability to do so, they tried to
> compensate by producing more protein involved in migration. But
> genistein prevented those proteins from being activated. This is
> really a lesson for researchers who depend on biomarker studies to
> test whether a treatment is working. They need to be aware that those
> biomarkers might be telling only half of the story."
>
> "These impressive results give us hope that genistein might show some
> effect in preventing the spread of prostate cancer in patients," Dr
> Bergan concluded. "Diet can affect cancer and it doesn't do it by
> magic. Certain chemicals have beneficial effects and now we have all
> the preclinical studies we need to suggest genistein might be a very
> promising chemopreventive drug."
>
> Anyone care to comment?
>
> John

On Mar 14, 4:16 pm, "Gourd Dancer" <!!!msheets!!!@!!!sbcglobal!!!.net>
wrote:
> Just an off comment. My Medical Oncologist says they can kill cancer and
> have been able to for 25 years. The trick is finding the right dosage with
> out killing the human. He tells me of some research that he is doing that
> anyway you slice and dice the tumor in a mouse, the tumor is dead after
> treatment.... tumor stll there, only dead.
>
> One day, he will find the right combination and dosages to not kill us
> humans.
>
>
>
> GD

GD,

You are correct. Pharmacological dosages of genistein are known to be
effective against a number of cancers involving an unknown mechanism
that is independent of the estrogen receptors. In general,
physiological dosages are also effective, but to a much lesser
extent. The problem is that genistein also increases bcl-2 production
because of its interactions with the estrogen receptors, and bcl-2 is
the protein that protects cancer from apoptosis.

As I've said before, the real danger of genistein occurs only when
somebody has a high level of bcl-2 before taking it. Usually, this
comes about when somebody is taking Proscar. Dr. Leibowitz has
observed that the PSA shoots up for his patients who took genistein
while on Proscar, then returned back down after discontinuing the
genistein. If you know for a fact that your bcl-2 level is low, or if
you don't have any prostate cancer cells in your body, then genistein
should be very beneficial.

Ed Friedman

On March 14, JohnHace wrote:

> Here's another story confusing my feeble brain about genistein.

(ka-snip)

Carrying on my informal (and, I sometimes think, futile) crusade to
encourage folks to read the primary source of medical information rather
than the interpretation of someone who might be unable to understand it
and/or has a commercial agenda as appears to be possible here
considering that the link is to a LIfe Extension Foundation commercial
site, I recommend this primary source at the American Association for
Cancer Research site:

http://tinyurl.com/39qskp

It's interesting, like so much of cancer research, but whether it can be
depended upon to help human beings is another question. Maybe so, maybe
not. Nothing is certain.

Regards,

Steve J