More on soy and prostate cancer

It appears that the mainstream is starting to agree with my view on soy:

http://www.news.com.au/sundaytelegra...001021,00.html

Ed Friedman

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:48:31 -0600, Ed Friedman <ed@math.uchicago.edu>
wrote:

>It appears that the mainstream is starting to agree with my view on soy:
>
>http://www.news.com.au/sundaytelegra...001021,00.html
>
>Ed Friedman

A very interesting article. I don't care for soy so it will never be
an issue for me, but I bet we have some vegetarians in the group that
will be impacted should they choose to follow this advice.

Mike

Diagnosed with PCa 11/2006 at age 55
PSA 13.8 Gleason 6 (3+3) T1c
da Vinci RLRP planned for Feb 2007
Seeing the world in a whole new light!

<Maui Mike> wrote in message
news:158qq2lpf6bm95e9hn6o503utbe4toeto3@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:48:31 -0600, Ed Friedman <ed@math.uchicago.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>It appears that the mainstream is starting to agree with my view on soy:
>>
>>http://www.news.com.au/sundaytelegra...001021,00.html
>>
>>Ed Friedman
>
> A very interesting article. I don't care for soy so it will never be
> an issue for me, but I bet we have some vegetarians in the group that
> will be impacted should they choose to follow this advice.
>
> Mike

Over a year ago, Ed posted on a study that, I think, he was doing with this
information in a much more detailed and scientific form. It was enough to
lead me to stop using the soy products I had added to my diet.

Claude wrote:
> <Maui Mike> wrote in message
> news:158qq2lpf6bm95e9hn6o503utbe4toeto3@4ax.com...
>
>>On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:48:31 -0600, Ed Friedman <ed@math.uchicago.edu>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It appears that the mainstream is starting to agree with my view on soy:
>>>
>>>http://www.news.com.au/sundaytelegra...001021,00.html
>>>
>>>Ed Friedman
>
> Over a year ago, Ed posted on a study that, I think, he was doing with this
> information in a much more detailed and scientific form. It was enough to
> lead me to stop using the soy products I had added to my diet.

Claude,

Acutally, I wrote over a year ago that, based on my model for prostate
cancer, in theory, large amounts of soy would make prostate cancer grow
more rapidly. I'm glad to see that the article I just cited mentions
soy as being bad for both prostate cancer and breast cancer, since the
breast cancer model I'm working on now predicts exactly that as well.

Ed Friedman

Ed, the article talks about phytoestrogens as being the culprit; should
we also avoid prostate health supplements that contain soy isoflavones?

Bill Denton
RP 2/12/02
PSA 1.10
Memphis

Bill wrote:
> Ed, the article talks about phytoestrogens as being the culprit; should
> we also avoid prostate health supplements that contain soy isoflavones?
>
> Bill Denton
> RP 2/12/02
> PSA 1.10
> Memphis

Bill,

According to my model, large amounts of any phytoestrogens that bind to
ER-beta preferentially should increase the growth rate of existing
prostate cancer. On the other hand, those that bind prefentially to
ER-alpha will decrease the growth rate. To date, the only one I know
that binds preferentially to ER-alpha is resveratrol. But it binds with
an affinity ~1000 times less than estradiol does, so you would need an
awful lot of it to see real results.

Ed Friedman

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:48:31 -0600, Ed Friedman <ed@math.uchicago.edu>
wrote:

>It appears that the mainstream is starting to agree with my view on soy:
>
>http://www.news.com.au/sundaytelegra...001021,00.html
>
>Ed Friedman


A comment from a reader of that article that conveys my feelings about
this issue:
"Thats bloody it ! Don't eat this but you should eat that but then 5
minutes later don't eat that ! I am now going to just eat bloody
grass!" Posted by: Virginia of Penrith 9:02pm January 14, 2007

More interesting comments from another reader:
" I read with great disappointment about the rather large and scary
headline concerning soy products and the link to breast and prostate
cancer. In checking the Cancer Council web site I could not find any
statement (although it may appear this Monday). However I found an
interesting article written in December on this subject (see link
below). If one takes the time to read carefully, it is clear that
there are more questions than answers and certainly no clinical
evidence that soy products inhibit or worsen breast or prostate
cancer. However the article makes it clear that there are (albeit
small) benefits in consuming soy products. More over whole grain and
legumes have equally high quantity of phytoestrogens (isoflavones). It
is unlikely that many of your readers will spend the time to read the
Cancer Council's article (or yours for that matter) but likely that
many will over react to your headline and do more harm than good by
cutting soy products from their diet and that of their children.
Article covering food and diet (particularly mainstream) are too
important to be included in the usual headline-grabbing articles. It
would be helpful to have a more balanced approach to such important
topics. Jerry http://www.cancercouncil.com.au/edit...asp?pageid=256
Posted by: Jerry Willimann of Frenchs Forest 6:31pm January 14, 2007

On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:48:31 -0600, Ed Friedman <ed@math.uchicago.edu>
wrote:

>It appears that the mainstream is starting to agree with my view on soy:
>
>http://www.news.com.au/sundaytelegra...001021,00.html
>
>Ed Friedman

I'm sorry, but I am confused by this. This article talks more about
the effects of soy consumption on breast cancer in women than it does
about prostate cancer in men. I infer that the evidence cited in this
study icomes from animal or petri dish studies rather than clinical
studies in humans. How dependable is that? What about the number of
published studies on the effect of soy consumption on PSA levels in
men with prostate camcer? These studeies, as I recall, show
reductions in doubling time or decreases in PSA levels in these men.
Or, what about the recent report by Dr. Dean Ornish that men treated
for PCa who eat low-fat, vegetarian diets have lower incidents of
cancer recurrence? Surely, soy was a significant component of the
diets of these men.

Is this article saying its OK to consume small or moderate amounts of
soy (which will cause no harm or could even provide benefits if the
clinical studies are to be believed) but its not OK to consume huge
amounts of soy? My question is (as a survivor of PCa) how much soy
can you eat or should you eat?

"Dennis D" <calliope248@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tnvfr215ksvdu4bpiu3q4h99strq56fvi9@4ax.com...

> My question is (as a survivor of PCa) how much soy
> can you eat or should you eat?

I think the point made was soy is not good AFTER PCa has been detected.

Is this Denny D, PhD?



--
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Just wondering. Aren't the Japanese and other asian men supposed to be less
prone to prostate cancer because they eat more soy and less red meat than
westerners? I'm sure I've read several articles indicating their prostate
cancer risk increases with a western diet.

--
Message posted via http://www.medkb.com

Steve Kramer wrote:

> I think the point made was soy is not good AFTER PCa has been detected.

How would a biopsy change soy's effect on PC?

Every new report I read about soy shakes its superpower myth ever further.

I.P.

Dennis D wrote:
> Is this article saying its OK to consume small or moderate amounts of
> soy (which will cause no harm or could even provide benefits if the
> clinical studies are to be believed) but its not OK to consume huge
> amounts of soy? My question is (as a survivor of PCa) how much soy
> can you eat or should you eat?

Dennis,

You ask an excellent question, but I'm afraid that there is no clearcut
answer as of yet. What I do know is that if lots of soy (or any other
phytoestrogen than binds preferentially to ER-beta) in conjunction with
a 5AR2 inhibitor, such as finasteride (F), then there is a dramatic
increase in PSA for men with prostate cancer (PCa). This was observed
by Dr. Leibowitz
(http://http://www.prostatepointers.o...st.10103.html).
My model (http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/10) explains this as being
due to the intracellular androgen receptor (iAR) downregulating bcl-2.
If you use F and reduce the DHT present, the T present binds to iAR with
an affinity 5 times less than DHT does, so you will end up with less
downregulation of bcl-2, hence more bcl-2 being present. If you block
ER-beta with anything less that is less than fully agonistic, then you
also will have more bcl-2 present because ER-beta also downregulates bcl-2.

If you aren't taking 5AR2 inhibitors, then you are less likely to see
any negative effects from soy. Anecdotally, I have heard from one man
whose PSA went from 2.5 to 17.5 in 18 months. When his PSA was 2.5, he
started on a program of soy milk with every meal and flaxseed for every
breakfast. When his PSA reached 17.5, they did a biopsy and discovered
PCa. Even though he was taking no 5AR2 inhibitors, this massive change
in his diet obviously sped up the growth of the cancer cells already
present in his prostate.

The interesting thing from my model is that if you don't have any PCa
cells in your body, then large amounts of soy will actually prevent PCa.
This is because the first step in PCa, telemorase activity, requires
E2 to bind to a ER-alpha/beta heterodimer. The genistein in soy
interferes with this happening by binding the the ER-beta part of the
heterodimer. Also, genestein has been shown to have some anti-cancer
properties that are totally independent of its binding to estrogen
receptors.

Ed Friedman

Ed Friedman wrote:
> if you don't have any PCa
> cells in your body, then large amounts of soy will actually prevent PCa.

Should we assume this rules out virtually every male in this forum?

I.P.

I.P. Freely wrote:
> Ed Friedman wrote:
>
>> if you don't have any PCa cells in your body, then large amounts of
>> soy will actually prevent PCa.
>
>
> Should we assume this rules out virtually every male in this forum?
>
> I.P.

I.P.,

In practice, I would rule out all men over 30, unless they were raised
in an environment where they have had lots of soy virtually every day
since childhood. However, as I said before, if you aren't taking 5AR2
inhibitors, then moderate amounts of soy should be no problem.

Ed Friedman

"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:sEguh.239$Dw4.135@newsfe03.lga...
> Steve Kramer wrote:
>
>> I think the point made was soy is not good AFTER PCa has been detected.
>
> How would a biopsy change soy's effect on PC?
>
> Every new report I read about soy shakes its superpower myth ever further.

Now you're taxing my Luproned brain.

If I remember correctly, soy is good for the prostate. It helps prostate
cells grow and multiply. However, it also helps cancerous prostate cells
grow and multiply. Ergo, good before dx, bad after dx.



--
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

I'm now down to deeper and deeper levels of knowledge available on the
net regarding prostate cancer. I'm currently lost in the funhouse that
is PubMed. My question is what are these different types of prostate
cancer cell lines? (LNCaP, CWR22, PC3, and DU145) From my menial
laymans perspective, different therapies and regimens perhaps should be
followed depending on which cancer cell line we're talking about.
Again, I know its all just petrie dish research which may produce a
completely different result when taken internally and travelled the
long local bus ride from our mouths to the pCa cells within our bodies,
wherever they may be. Like Steve K. says, knowledge is power

WSF

"WhiteSoxFan" <leicam13@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1169843384.806221.92480@s48g2000cws.googlegro ups.com...

> Like Steve K. says, knowledge is power

Thanks for the cite, but I believe that is Curtis.


--
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

On Jan 26, 1:29 pm, "WhiteSoxFan" <leica...@comcast.net>
wrote...snip...
> My question is what are these different types of prostate
> cancer cell lines? (LNCaP, CWR22, PC3, and DU145) From my menial
> laymans perspective, different therapies and regimens perhaps should be
> followed depending on which cancer cell line we're talking about.

WSF...Way back when, they took some cells from a mouse or a human
prostate tumor and established a cell line. They did this from sveral
tumors in different mice and men. The cells continued to divide and
grow in number in the lab incubators. Cells are sent to other labs for
experimentation. Again they continue to divide and grow in numbers.
Samples from some of these lines have now divided so many times - with
further mutation along the way - that they probably bare little genetic
resemblance to the original cells. Nonetheless, they continue to be
used in various experiments. If I recall correctly, the LNCaP line is
used as a model for androgen independent PCa. BTW, the same exact
thing is going on now with stem cells.

So you are absolutley correct in that there is a strong genetic
component to PCa. One man's PCa cells might easily succumb to one type
of treatment, while another man's PCa cells may be resistant to that
treatment. They are beginning to tailor breast cancer treatment
depending upon your genetic make up. I suspect that will start to
happen with PCa not too far down the road...Best wishes and good
health, ron

WhiteSoxFan wrote:
> I'm now down to deeper and deeper levels of knowledge available on the
> net regarding prostate cancer. I'm currently lost in the funhouse that
> is PubMed. My question is what are these different types of prostate
> cancer cell lines? (LNCaP, CWR22, PC3, and DU145) From my menial
> laymans perspective, different therapies and regimens perhaps should be
> followed depending on which cancer cell line we're talking about.
> Again, I know its all just petrie dish research which may produce a
> completely different result when taken internally and travelled the
> long local bus ride from our mouths to the pCa cells within our bodies,
> wherever they may be. Like Steve K. says, knowledge is power

Until we run out of brain bits and spare time.

I.P.

Steve Kramer wrote:
> "I.P. Freely" wrote.
>> Steve Kramer wrote:
>>
>>> I think the point made was soy is not good AFTER PCa has been detected.
>> How would a biopsy change soy's effect on PC?

> If I remember correctly, soy is good for the prostate. It helps prostate
> cells grow and multiply. However, it also helps cancerous prostate cells
> grow and multiply. Ergo, good before dx, bad after dx.

Not "good before dx" if you have CANCER before dx.

I.P.

"I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:RnAuh.311$Dw4.296@newsfe03.lga...
> Steve Kramer wrote:
>> "I.P. Freely" wrote.
>>> Steve Kramer wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the point made was soy is not good AFTER PCa has been detected.
>>> How would a biopsy change soy's effect on PC?
>
>> If I remember correctly, soy is good for the prostate. It helps prostate
>> cells grow and multiply. However, it also helps cancerous prostate cells
>> grow and multiply. Ergo, good before dx, bad after dx.
>
> Not "good before dx" if you have CANCER before dx.

I was trying to answer the why before and not after dx question, but, of
course you're right about the cancer.

It is best to stop taking soy two years before any prostate cancer
diagnosis.




--
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

> >>> Steve Kramer wrote:
>

> It is best to stop taking soy two years before any prostate cancer
> diagnosis.
>

I'll remember that in my next life.