Any non-believers here (re: God)??

Just curious?? I really do not believe in God one iota.
It flies in the face of logic. How many times can you say it was God's will
when these tragedies occur. Randomness seems to play a greater role (and I
am not talking just about cancer).

Anyway, I will spare the group any further atheist rant as my question goes
in another direction. I have a few friends that are TRULY DEEPLY religious.
I find they can handle life's tragedies much better than I can. They can say
that so and so is in a better place and they believe that. I really envy the
peace they find with such beliefs. It would be nice to have that comfort; I
think it's great and that's a real value of religion. It would be nice to
think that we have a shot at going somewhere better. I mean it is hard to
comprehend being totally GONE.

But for those of us who don't have those beliefs, I think it's tough.

I read this board quite a bit as I've been a cancer victim (minor cancer)
slightly and I've lost my father, friends, and co-workers to cancer so this
board has been a wonderful source of solace. I also have a variety of
annoying medical problems. But I read all these religious notes and frankly
I just don't buy it one bit.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone else shares such views? It's something we don't
often discuss, but where else than this Board is there a better place to at
least talk about such an issue??

They say there are no atheists in foxholes. But I know as I got educated my
beliefs evolved into the aforementioned and despite reading, etc. my views
on this issue have not changed in 40 years. Sadly (and I do mean sadly) I
suspect I would be that atheist in the foxhole!!

I've enjoyed reading all your posts and would welcome your opinions/views on
such issues.

Mel

"MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net> wrote in message
news:Ow42h.41$Da4.32@newsfe02.lga...
> Just curious?? I really do not believe in God one iota.
> It flies in the face of logic. How many times can you say it was God's
> will when these tragedies occur. Randomness seems to play a greater role
> (and I am not talking just about cancer).
>
> Anyway, I will spare the group any further atheist rant as my question
> goes in another direction. I have a few friends that are TRULY DEEPLY
> religious. I find they can handle life's tragedies much better than I can.
> They can say that so and so is in a better place and they believe that. I
> really envy the peace they find with such beliefs. It would be nice to
> have that comfort; I think it's great and that's a real value of
> religion. It would be nice to think that we have a shot at going somewhere
> better. I mean it is hard to comprehend being totally GONE.
>
> But for those of us who don't have those beliefs, I think it's tough.
>
> I read this board quite a bit as I've been a cancer victim (minor cancer)
> slightly and I've lost my father, friends, and co-workers to cancer so
> this board has been a wonderful source of solace. I also have a variety of
> annoying medical problems. But I read all these religious notes and
> frankly I just don't buy it one bit.
>
> Anyway, I wonder if anyone else shares such views? It's something we don't
> often discuss, but where else than this Board is there a better place to
> at least talk about such an issue??
>
> They say there are no atheists in foxholes. But I know as I got educated
> my beliefs evolved into the aforementioned and despite reading, etc. my
> views on this issue have not changed in 40 years. Sadly (and I do mean
> sadly) I suspect I would be that atheist in the foxhole!!
>
> I've enjoyed reading all your posts and would welcome your opinions/views
> on such issues.
>
> Mel
If there is a God I'm sure that he'd understand your (much the same as mine
by the way) point of view. As a devout agnostic and as much of a "christian"
in my dealings with my fellow man as a non-beliver can be, that's as good an
insurance policy as you can have.

I'd love to belive, just can't really get there.

Ian

On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 12:09:01 -0500, "MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net>
wrotF:

>Just curious?? I really do not believe in God one iota.
>It flies in the face of logic. How many times can you say it was God's will
>when these tragedies occur. Randomness seems to play a greater role (and I
>am not talking just about cancer).
>
>Anyway, I will spare the group any further atheist rant as my question goes
>in another direction. I have a few friends that are TRULY DEEPLY religious.
>I find they can handle life's tragedies much better than I can. They can say
>that so and so is in a better place and they believe that. I really envy the
>peace they find with such beliefs. It would be nice to have that comfort; I
>think it's great and that's a real value of religion. It would be nice to
>think that we have a shot at going somewhere better. I mean it is hard to
>comprehend being totally GONE.
>
>But for those of us who don't have those beliefs, I think it's tough.
>
>I read this board quite a bit as I've been a cancer victim (minor cancer)
>slightly and I've lost my father, friends, and co-workers to cancer so this
>board has been a wonderful source of solace. I also have a variety of
>annoying medical problems. But I read all these religious notes and frankly
>I just don't buy it one bit.
>
>Anyway, I wonder if anyone else shares such views? It's something we don't
>often discuss, but where else than this Board is there a better place to at
>least talk about such an issue??
>
>They say there are no atheists in foxholes. But I know as I got educated my
>beliefs evolved into the aforementioned and despite reading, etc. my views
>on this issue have not changed in 40 years. Sadly (and I do mean sadly) I
>suspect I would be that atheist in the foxhole!!
>
>I've enjoyed reading all your posts and would welcome your opinions/views on
>such issues.
>
>Mel
>


I write as a clergy (now retired) who majored in philosophy, keeps
abreast of scientific discovery - especially in astrophysics, sees
nothing contrary to faith in evolution, slips a few 4-letter words now
and then, and who is dying of cancer. Just wanted to give you a
context.

I think that it is true that those with religious belief have a
certain advantage. How could they not? But this does not mean that a
non-believer must face death with alarm. I understand that Carl Sagan
was quite at peace as he approached his death. I read somewhere that
in the eulogy, the clergy person stated that Carl once asked him
"You're so smart, how can you believe in God" to which the clergy guy
said "Carl, you're so smart, how can you not believe in God?"

I think that even the extremely religious have some doubt "What if I'm
wrong?" (Otherwise there would be no room for faith) I think that even
the extremely irreligious have some doubt too "What if I'm wrong".
Pascal's wager may be appropriate here, but personally I don't think
so. My own counsel is to explore the issue independently. There are
lots of sites on the web that deal with this. Just be careful... there
are fundamentalist atheists just like there are fundamentalist
religious.

In previous posts I've gotten the impression that there are a few
deeply non-religious persons here. But they don't bang their drum
about it. SImilarly, I've gotten the impression that there are a
number of deeply religious persons here. But they too don't use this
group as a pulpit.

All of which is nice because it is our cancer that is in common. This
is mostly an information-sharing place about a disease and a support
group for cancer patients and their loved ones/caregivers. It is not a
theo-philosophical forum. I suspect that if you wanted to ask some
very deep questions here about non-belief and belief, you would be
directed to other groups or sites or you could go one-on-one with
anybody here is some other place, eg email.

Just thinking out loud.

Joe:

On the one hand, religion might better be discussed in another forum.

On the other hand, given the scary disease folks on this board face, one can
argue that such a discussion is worthwhile here.

Mel
"46erjoe" <somebody@spamless.net> wrote in message
news:fqshk29e9e63c53aeiojrasmhitc5dsd80@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 12:09:01 -0500, "MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net>
> wrotF:
>
>>Just curious?? I really do not believe in God one iota.
>>It flies in the face of logic. How many times can you say it was God's
>>will
>>when these tragedies occur. Randomness seems to play a greater role (and I
>>am not talking just about cancer).
>>
>>Anyway, I will spare the group any further atheist rant as my question
>>goes
>>in another direction. I have a few friends that are TRULY DEEPLY
>>religious.
>>I find they can handle life's tragedies much better than I can. They can
>>say
>>that so and so is in a better place and they believe that. I really envy
>>the
>>peace they find with such beliefs. It would be nice to have that comfort;
>>I
>>think it's great and that's a real value of religion. It would be nice to
>>think that we have a shot at going somewhere better. I mean it is hard to
>>comprehend being totally GONE.
>>
>>But for those of us who don't have those beliefs, I think it's tough.
>>
>>I read this board quite a bit as I've been a cancer victim (minor cancer)
>>slightly and I've lost my father, friends, and co-workers to cancer so
>>this
>>board has been a wonderful source of solace. I also have a variety of
>>annoying medical problems. But I read all these religious notes and
>>frankly
>>I just don't buy it one bit.
>>
>>Anyway, I wonder if anyone else shares such views? It's something we don't
>>often discuss, but where else than this Board is there a better place to
>>at
>>least talk about such an issue??
>>
>>They say there are no atheists in foxholes. But I know as I got educated
>>my
>>beliefs evolved into the aforementioned and despite reading, etc. my views
>>on this issue have not changed in 40 years. Sadly (and I do mean sadly) I
>>suspect I would be that atheist in the foxhole!!
>>
>>I've enjoyed reading all your posts and would welcome your opinions/views
>>on
>>such issues.
>>
>>Mel
>>
>
>
> I write as a clergy (now retired) who majored in philosophy, keeps
> abreast of scientific discovery - especially in astrophysics, sees
> nothing contrary to faith in evolution, slips a few 4-letter words now
> and then, and who is dying of cancer. Just wanted to give you a
> context.
>
> I think that it is true that those with religious belief have a
> certain advantage. How could they not? But this does not mean that a
> non-believer must face death with alarm. I understand that Carl Sagan
> was quite at peace as he approached his death. I read somewhere that
> in the eulogy, the clergy person stated that Carl once asked him
> "You're so smart, how can you believe in God" to which the clergy guy
> said "Carl, you're so smart, how can you not believe in God?"
>
> I think that even the extremely religious have some doubt "What if I'm
> wrong?" (Otherwise there would be no room for faith) I think that even
> the extremely irreligious have some doubt too "What if I'm wrong".
> Pascal's wager may be appropriate here, but personally I don't think
> so. My own counsel is to explore the issue independently. There are
> lots of sites on the web that deal with this. Just be careful... there
> are fundamentalist atheists just like there are fundamentalist
> religious.
>
> In previous posts I've gotten the impression that there are a few
> deeply non-religious persons here. But they don't bang their drum
> about it. SImilarly, I've gotten the impression that there are a
> number of deeply religious persons here. But they too don't use this
> group as a pulpit.
>
> All of which is nice because it is our cancer that is in common. This
> is mostly an information-sharing place about a disease and a support
> group for cancer patients and their loved ones/caregivers. It is not a
> theo-philosophical forum. I suspect that if you wanted to ask some
> very deep questions here about non-belief and belief, you would be
> directed to other groups or sites or you could go one-on-one with
> anybody here is some other place, eg email.
>
> Just thinking out loud.
>
>

"MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net> wrote in message
news:Ow42h.41$Da4.32@newsfe02.lga...
> Just curious?? I really do not believe in God one iota.
> It flies in the face of logic. How many times can you say it was God's
> will when these tragedies occur. Randomness seems to play a greater role
> (and I am not talking just about cancer).
>
> Anyway, I will spare the group any further atheist rant as my question
> goes in another direction. I have a few friends that are TRULY DEEPLY
> religious. I find they can handle life's tragedies much better than I can.
> They can say that so and so is in a better place and they believe that. I
> really envy the peace they find with such beliefs. It would be nice to
> have that comfort; I think it's great and that's a real value of
> religion. It would be nice to think that we have a shot at going somewhere
> better. I mean it is hard to comprehend being totally GONE.
>
> But for those of us who don't have those beliefs, I think it's tough.
>
> I read this board quite a bit as I've been a cancer victim (minor cancer)
> slightly and I've lost my father, friends, and co-workers to cancer so
> this board has been a wonderful source of solace. I also have a variety of
> annoying medical problems. But I read all these religious notes and
> frankly I just don't buy it one bit.
>
> Anyway, I wonder if anyone else shares such views? It's something we don't
> often discuss, but where else than this Board is there a better place to
> at least talk about such an issue??
>
> They say there are no atheists in foxholes. But I know as I got educated
> my beliefs evolved into the aforementioned and despite reading, etc. my
> views on this issue have not changed in 40 years. Sadly (and I do mean
> sadly) I suspect I would be that atheist in the foxhole!!
>
> I've enjoyed reading all your posts and would welcome your opinions/views
> on such issues.
>
> Mel
>
Hi Mel,

Interesting area of discussion. Personally I am too logical to think that a
God exists but I don't knock those that do believe.

I'm not so sure if it is tougher on non-believers. When I lost my husband
one of the most profound feelings that I had at his passing was that he
finally looked at peace. His suffering was over, he was no longer in pain
or fighting against the illness. He just looked really serene. And in a
strange way that gave me some comfort. Yes, of course I was completely
devestated that I had lost him, but the pain and anguish were for myself.

What's also strange is how now three years (or actually into my fourth)
without him, I still don't feel entirely without him. He still lurks in my
heart and in my memories. It's like I can still feel a presence
occasionally although this has nothing to do with God or spirits or any such
like.

Hmmm

Warm Hugs

Alayne

"MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net> wrote:

>Just curious?? I really do not believe in God one iota.
>It flies in the face of logic. How many times can you say it was God's will
>when these tragedies occur. Randomness seems to play a greater role (andI
>am not talking just about cancer).

I don't consider myself an atheist since I come from the position of a
Logical Empiricist - it's not a matter of not believing in god, but that
there is no evidence for his existence. Us'n Logical Empiricists don't
accept as "real" anything that doesn't move a meter.

There is also no evidence for Santa Claus, but I don't consider myself
an "aclausist" - if you understand the similarities between atheism and
aclausism. Neither concept has any bearing on how I live my life.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
it's not a matter of not believing in god, but that
there is no evidence for his existence. Us'n Logical Empiricists don't
accept as "real" anything that doesn't move a meter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sounds like an atheist to me!!!

Mel



"Eric Greene" <spamcatcher@ngc1514.com> wrote in message
news:hl3kk2t23l80ac490itvugl5har0g1sefs@4ax.com...
"MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net> wrote:

>Just curious?? I really do not believe in God one iota.
>It flies in the face of logic. How many times can you say it was God's will
>when these tragedies occur. Randomness seems to play a greater role (and I
>am not talking just about cancer).

I don't consider myself an atheist since I come from the position of a
Logical Empiricist - it's not a matter of not believing in god, but that
there is no evidence for his existence. Us'n Logical Empiricists don't
accept as "real" anything that doesn't move a meter.

There is also no evidence for Santa Claus, but I don't consider myself
an "aclausist" - if you understand the similarities between atheism and
aclausism. Neither concept has any bearing on how I live my life.

Eric Greene said...
> There is also no evidence for Santa Claus, but I don't consider myself
> an "aclausist" - if you understand the similarities between atheism and
> aclausism.
>
Plenty of evidence that Santa Claus is a made-up thing however. And not
only that but an entirely implausible one. Research will show that the
concept of Santa Claus is based on the real 'Saint' Nicholas; the red
outfit and white beard etc are all recent additions to the theme. I
have told my children the truth about Santa Claus right from the start
and am an active 'aclausist' - but that's the first time I've seen my
anti-Santa stance given a name.

As far as God is concerned however there is, if not evidence or definite
proof, then at least a fairly well documented and authenticated account
(both written and verbal) of certain events in what we now call first
century Palestine. What you (generic) make of those accounts is up to
you; the accounts definitely bear looking into carefully though: mass
hallucinations very rarely (if ever) happen. Has anyone ever actually
encountered one such?

Food for thought, at least.

--
Em (Univ Wales B.D.)

Well, maybe you don't believe. However, from my point of view, and the
activities I involve myself in at Christmas time, I know many happy Seniors whom
I visit at Christmas Parties, and Children whom I talk to at a hospital here
during the week before Christmas. Santa may or may not exist, but the smiles on
the Children I meet and talk to in the ER, are definitely genuine. Why do I do
it? It is sort of a pay back for all of the good that the Hospital provided me
when I had some real problems. I don't do the gig professionally, but I do have
an excellent Christmas when it's over. This year, at the advise of the Chief of
Oncological Staff, I plan to spend a day in the Chemo Lab talking to patients,
and even they enjoy the visit even if only it is a departure from the monotony
of transfusion. The whole concept comes from my belief in God, and what he put
me here to do.

Good Luck.






On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 22:24:26 -0000, Emily <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>Eric Greene said...
>> There is also no evidence for Santa Claus, but I don't consider myself
>> an "aclausist" - if you understand the similarities between atheism and
>> aclausism.
>>
>Plenty of evidence that Santa Claus is a made-up thing however. And not
>only that but an entirely implausible one. Research will show that the
>concept of Santa Claus is based on the real 'Saint' Nicholas; the red
>outfit and white beard etc are all recent additions to the theme. I
>have told my children the truth about Santa Claus right from the start
>and am an active 'aclausist' - but that's the first time I've seen my
>anti-Santa stance given a name.
>
>As far as God is concerned however there is, if not evidence or definite
>proof, then at least a fairly well documented and authenticated account
>(both written and verbal) of certain events in what we now call first
>century Palestine. What you (generic) make of those accounts is up to
>you; the accounts definitely bear looking into carefully though: mass
>hallucinations very rarely (if ever) happen. Has anyone ever actually
>encountered one such?
>
>Food for thought, at least.


Grateful to be back.

Eddie MD OTF

On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 20:41:50 -0500, Eddie Van Huffel
<edvanhuffel@cox.net> wrotF:

>Well, maybe you don't believe. However, from my point of view, and the
>activities I involve myself in at Christmas time, I know many happy Seniors whom
>I visit at Christmas Parties, and Children whom I talk to at a hospital here
>during the week before Christmas. Santa may or may not exist, but the smiles on
>the Children I meet and talk to in the ER, are definitely genuine. Why do I do
>it? It is sort of a pay back for all of the good that the Hospital provided me
>when I had some real problems. I don't do the gig professionally, but I do have
>an excellent Christmas when it's over. This year, at the advise of the Chief of
>Oncological Staff, I plan to spend a day in the Chemo Lab talking to patients,
>and even they enjoy the visit even if only it is a departure from the monotony
>of transfusion. The whole concept comes from my belief in God, and what he put
>me here to do.
>
>Good Luck.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 22:24:26 -0000, Emily <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>Eric Greene said...
>>> There is also no evidence for Santa Claus, but I don't consider myself
>>> an "aclausist" - if you understand the similarities between atheism and
>>> aclausism.
>>>
>>Plenty of evidence that Santa Claus is a made-up thing however. And not
>>only that but an entirely implausible one. Research will show that the
>>concept of Santa Claus is based on the real 'Saint' Nicholas; the red
>>outfit and white beard etc are all recent additions to the theme. I
>>have told my children the truth about Santa Claus right from the start
>>and am an active 'aclausist' - but that's the first time I've seen my
>>anti-Santa stance given a name.
>>
>>As far as God is concerned however there is, if not evidence or definite
>>proof, then at least a fairly well documented and authenticated account
>>(both written and verbal) of certain events in what we now call first
>>century Palestine. What you (generic) make of those accounts is up to
>>you; the accounts definitely bear looking into carefully though: mass
>>hallucinations very rarely (if ever) happen. Has anyone ever actually
>>encountered one such?
>>
>>Food for thought, at least.
>
>
>Grateful to be back.
>
>Eddie MD OTF


I've always felt that there is a place for a paid or voluntary
"chaplain" (not sure if the term would be appropriate) in the chemo
treatment rooms. The nurses are kind and caring, but they do not have
a lot of time to devote to the emotional/spiritual needs of the
patients and they seldom get to know anybody on a first-name basis.
When I got there for my first treatment, I was a nervous wreck. I
would have appreciated having a knowledgeable and caring person beside
me to help me deal with the fears I was experiencing and enabling me
to dig deep into my own spirituality for help. I have noticed that a
significant number of patients bring Bibles with them into the
treatment rooms. Crisis situations cause people to probe the
faith/non-faith question.

>"46erjoe" wrote
>> <edvanhuffel@cox.net> wrotF:
>
>>Well, maybe you don't believe. However, from my point of view, and the
>>activities I involve myself in at Christmas time, I know many happy
>>Seniors whom
>>I visit at Christmas Parties, and Children whom I talk to at a hospital
>>here
>>during the week before Christmas. Santa may or may not exist, but the
>>smiles on
>>the Children I meet and talk to in the ER, are definitely genuine. Why do
>>I do
>>it? It is sort of a pay back for all of the good that the Hospital
>>provided me
>>when I had some real problems. I don't do the gig professionally, but I
>>do have
>>an excellent Christmas when it's over. This year, at the advise of the
>>Chief of
>>Oncological Staff, I plan to spend a day in the Chemo Lab talking to
>>patients,
>>and even they enjoy the visit even if only it is a departure from the
>>monotony
>>of transfusion. The whole concept comes from my belief in God, and what
>>he put
>>me here to do.

And a fine mission it is. Keep up with the good cheer.

<snipped for brevity>
> I've always felt that there is a place for a paid or voluntary
> "chaplain" (not sure if the term would be appropriate) in the chemo
> treatment rooms. The nurses are kind and caring, but they do not have
> a lot of time to devote to the emotional/spiritual needs of the
> patients and they seldom get to know anybody on a first-name basis.
> When I got there for my first treatment, I was a nervous wreck. I
> would have appreciated having a knowledgeable and caring person beside
> me to help me deal with the fears I was experiencing and enabling me
> to dig deep into my own spirituality for help. I have noticed that a
> significant number of patients bring Bibles with them into the
> treatment rooms. Crisis situations cause people to probe the
> faith/non-faith question.

I'm happy to report that my clinic has a chaplain of sorts. He is a
minister
volunteer through a Non-profit support organization that has more than
100 cancer survivors that help at the hospitals and clinics. I have seen
him in the chemo treatment area as well as the various waiting areas.
It is very comforting to know there is someone there to help. Also
the clinic has a psychologist on staff to help.
Marsha

>"MZB" wrote :
> Just curious?? I really do not believe in God one iota.
> It flies in the face of logic. How many times can you say it was God's
> will when these tragedies occur. Randomness seems to play a greater role
> (and I am not talking just about cancer).
>
<snipped for brevity>
> I've enjoyed reading all your posts and would welcome your opinions/views
> on such issues.
>
Mel,
Please forgive for all the snipping I will do here but I don't intend it as
editorializing only to get to the opinions/views you have solicited. If I
mis-represent anything you or others have written, please forgive me.

Ever since I read your post it has been laid on my heart that I should
respond to you as a Believer. I thought of your post during my treatment
today, when I wasn't dozing from the massive amounts of Bendery ;-).
Every time I go there I canvas the faces and it is obvious those that
have that peace in their faith and those that have fear lacking a faith.

Where you said:
>I read this board quite a bit as I've been a cancer victim (minor cancer)
>slightly and I've lost my father, friends, and co-workers to cancer so this
>board has been a wonderful source of solace. I also have a variety of
>annoying medical problems. But I read all these religious notes and frankly
>I just don't buy it one bit.

No cancer is minor.

Another poster (Eric) in response to the above said:
>>Us'n Logical Empiricists don't accept as "real" anything that
>>doesn't move a meter.

I've been blessed that through 7 or 8 aggressive treatments for breast
cancer I've have very minor side-effects and only one 3 day
stretch of any significant bone pain (about a 6 out of 10 on the
self-pain scale). I couldn't SEE that pain and I couldn't TOUCH
that pain. But I KNOW it was there. It is like my faith in God;
I can neither see Him nor touch Him but I know He is there.
And there are hundreds of people knows His is there and they
are praying for me and my family, specifically that I will not have
any bad side-effects and will be cured. I can't put into words
how this feels but it is wonderful.

Quoting some of your comments (below) I can't help but think you
are searching for answers:
>I really envy the peace they find with such beliefs. It would be nice to
>have that comfort; I think it's great and that's a real value of religion.
>It would be nice to think that we have a shot at going somewhere better. I
>mean it is hard to comprehend being totally GONE.
>
> But for those of us who don't have those beliefs, I think it's tough.
>
>Sadly (and I do mean sadly) I suspect I would be that atheist in the
>foxhole!!

You mention all the reading you have done. What have you read?
I don't read religious literature to learn about science. Ergo, I don't
read scientific journals and social criticism to learn about The Father,
The Son and The Holy Ghost. Those answers are in The Bible. You
have already asked the 1st question of a person that *wants* to believe;
"What would happen to me if I died tonight?" Your faith-filled friends
know and you are envious. I know this from my belief; there will
be no pain and no sorrow there. I will not be concerned with the ills
of those left behind on earth because I will be in such awe
at seeing His face.

At this point, I confess that evangelism is not my forte but I know this;
you must search in the proper place. Read the book of John, the 4th
book of the New Testament. You will not understand everything right
away but continue to study and read. If you do not have a Bible and
can't afford one, let me know (mrs_m_rider at yahoo dot com)
and I will gladly send you one of mine. Next, find yourself a Bible
teaching/preaching church. It doesn't matter what denomination,
many do. Get involved with other Believers and study the Word.
And lastly, be baptized in the church that you finally find.

And lastly, Mel, for whatever you can't forgive yourself, know that
God has already forgiven you and you only have to ask *once*
(it took me 20 wasted years to discover this) and the price has already
been paid. Imagine a drama: a simple plot. A man goes to a restaurant.
The menu is strange; the soup de jour is "Avarice Soup", one entree is
"Roasted Pride", followed by desserts such as "Lust Pudding". There
are no prices on the menu. The man orders gluttonously from the menu
and heartily eats every bite of the fare. The waiter delivers the ticket.
On it is printed only the word "Death". The man can hardly breath and
almost faints. He questions the seriousness of the bill. The waiter assures
him that is the price. Then he points to a quiet figure at a nearby table
and calmly says, "Don't be afraid, He has already paid it for you."

Peace be with you Mel in healing your medical problems.
You'll be in my prayers.
Marsha
(Note: I do not take credit for the drama plot; I saw it performed
and do not know who to credit.)

Thanks for your well-thought out response.
Let me correct/elaborate on a few items:

I actually did have a minor cancer: superficial basal cell carcinoma on my
forearm. It was removed easily by my physician. But that's what originally
brought me to this newsgroup. Even that minor cancer shook me up big time
because it did make me realize how tenuous life can be. I am getting older
and realize all too deeply my own mortality. But, yes, there ARE minor
cancers!

Yes, I can afford a bible. My purpose, however, is not to get into a
religious debate here. Suffice it to say it was written by man and I just
don't buy the miracles. (Incidentally, was the parting of the Red Sea a
biblical reference).

I am pleased that you feel that prayers have helped you avoid some of the
pain and side effects that often accompanies treatment. Yet, I've had very
religious friends who have suffered greatly. So, your prayers are answered
and others with prayer groups are not?? At times it appears to me that there
is this race to get more and more people praying for you. The implication is
that the more people who pray for you, the better chance you have. Very
strange to me.

As I said, I find it hard to reconcile the tragedies we see all around us
with the existence of any kind of compassionate God. It is nice to say that
it is God's will, but this explanation explains nothing to me. To ME, it's a
cop-out for random events that we cannot explain. We will all die and none
of us knows what that entails (RE: after death). The fact is we are gone
after death. We no longer exist. If some kind of soul or whatever remains,
well that is pure invention (because it is so difficult to truly conceive of
us not-existing). Again, this is just my opinion. You are welcome to believe
someone is looking down on you or "in a better place." However, I too was
greatly relieved when my Dad passed away at age 97. He suffered greatly in
his last year ... and as a result so did I. So, yes, death can be better
than living under certain circumstances.

I TRULY wish I did NOT think this way. I have read philosophical writings
"proving" the existence of God and writings debunking the first writings.
Incidentally, some of these writings were written by brilliant
mathematicians (my field) and it's almost like an alter-ego. Brilliant logic
in proving mathematical theorems and yet no logic in the philosophical
treatises.

Oh, gee, I said I wouldn't get into a religious debate and now it looks like
I am doing just that.

Sorry to run on like that. I totally agree with you that religious folks
handle these situations much much much better.

As I said, my religious opinions haven't changed (well, they have gotten a
tad more entrenched). In all other matters I think I have changed. I think
I've grown and evolved. My opinions on politics and other aspects of life
have mellowed and I hope have been infused by wisdom and experience. I find
it odd that my religious views have NOT changed!

Again, thanks for your response. I truly truly hope I haven't offended
anyone by my views. I know this is a SUPPORT group and I hope others will
look at this thread as an important life issue

In fact, I thank everyone for their responses. It is interesting to hear all
the viewpoints.

"J": you weigh in on many topics. Care to comment here (besides the fact
that I've top-posted ... sorry)

Mel




"Mizz Marcia Ryder" <MizzOtis@regrets.com> wrote in message
newspz2h.21234$Cq3.3387@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com.. .
>
>>"MZB" wrote :
>> Just curious?? I really do not believe in God one iota.
>> It flies in the face of logic. How many times can you say it was God's
>> will when these tragedies occur. Randomness seems to play a greater role
>> (and I am not talking just about cancer).
>>
> <snipped for brevity>
>> I've enjoyed reading all your posts and would welcome your opinions/views
>> on such issues.
>>
> Mel,
> Please forgive for all the snipping I will do here but I don't intend it
> as
> editorializing only to get to the opinions/views you have solicited. If I
> mis-represent anything you or others have written, please forgive me.
>
> Ever since I read your post it has been laid on my heart that I should
> respond to you as a Believer. I thought of your post during my treatment
> today, when I wasn't dozing from the massive amounts of Bendery ;-).
> Every time I go there I canvas the faces and it is obvious those that
> have that peace in their faith and those that have fear lacking a faith.
>
> Where you said:
>>I read this board quite a bit as I've been a cancer victim (minor cancer)
>>slightly and I've lost my father, friends, and co-workers to cancer so
>>this board has been a wonderful source of solace. I also have a variety of
>>annoying medical problems. But I read all these religious notes and
>>frankly I just don't buy it one bit.
>
> No cancer is minor.
>
> Another poster (Eric) in response to the above said:
>>>Us'n Logical Empiricists don't accept as "real" anything that
>>>doesn't move a meter.
>
> I've been blessed that through 7 or 8 aggressive treatments for breast
> cancer I've have very minor side-effects and only one 3 day
> stretch of any significant bone pain (about a 6 out of 10 on the
> self-pain scale). I couldn't SEE that pain and I couldn't TOUCH
> that pain. But I KNOW it was there. It is like my faith in God;
> I can neither see Him nor touch Him but I know He is there.
> And there are hundreds of people knows His is there and they
> are praying for me and my family, specifically that I will not have
> any bad side-effects and will be cured. I can't put into words
> how this feels but it is wonderful.
>
> Quoting some of your comments (below) I can't help but think you
> are searching for answers:
>>I really envy the peace they find with such beliefs. It would be nice to
>>have that comfort; I think it's great and that's a real value of
>>religion. It would be nice to think that we have a shot at going somewhere
>>better. I mean it is hard to comprehend being totally GONE.
>>
>> But for those of us who don't have those beliefs, I think it's tough.
>>
>>Sadly (and I do mean sadly) I suspect I would be that atheist in the
>>foxhole!!
>
> You mention all the reading you have done. What have you read?
> I don't read religious literature to learn about science. Ergo, I don't
> read scientific journals and social criticism to learn about The Father,
> The Son and The Holy Ghost. Those answers are in The Bible. You
> have already asked the 1st question of a person that *wants* to believe;
> "What would happen to me if I died tonight?" Your faith-filled friends
> know and you are envious. I know this from my belief; there will
> be no pain and no sorrow there. I will not be concerned with the ills
> of those left behind on earth because I will be in such awe
> at seeing His face.
>
> At this point, I confess that evangelism is not my forte but I know this;
> you must search in the proper place. Read the book of John, the 4th
> book of the New Testament. You will not understand everything right
> away but continue to study and read. If you do not have a Bible and
> can't afford one, let me know (mrs_m_rider at yahoo dot com)
> and I will gladly send you one of mine. Next, find yourself a Bible
> teaching/preaching church. It doesn't matter what denomination,
> many do. Get involved with other Believers and study the Word.
> And lastly, be baptized in the church that you finally find.
>
> And lastly, Mel, for whatever you can't forgive yourself, know that
> God has already forgiven you and you only have to ask *once*
> (it took me 20 wasted years to discover this) and the price has already
> been paid. Imagine a drama: a simple plot. A man goes to a restaurant.
> The menu is strange; the soup de jour is "Avarice Soup", one entree is
> "Roasted Pride", followed by desserts such as "Lust Pudding". There
> are no prices on the menu. The man orders gluttonously from the menu
> and heartily eats every bite of the fare. The waiter delivers the ticket.
> On it is printed only the word "Death". The man can hardly breath and
> almost faints. He questions the seriousness of the bill. The waiter
> assures
> him that is the price. Then he points to a quiet figure at a nearby table
> and calmly says, "Don't be afraid, He has already paid it for you."
>
> Peace be with you Mel in healing your medical problems.
> You'll be in my prayers.
> Marsha
> (Note: I do not take credit for the drama plot; I saw it performed
> and do not know who to credit.)
>

>"MZB" wrote :
> Thanks for your well-thought out response.
> Let me correct/elaborate on a few items:
>
> I actually did have a minor cancer: superficial basal cell carcinoma on my
<sniped> But, yes, there ARE minor cancers!

I suppose I meant I've known people with the same kind of "minor"
cancer you've had and they were still scared out of their wits at first.
But yes the consequences and treatment can certainly be worse.

<snipped the part where you said you don't want to get into
a religious debate. I trust you don't.>

> I am pleased that you feel that prayers have helped you avoid some of the
> pain and side effects that often accompanies treatment. Yet, I've had very
> religious friends who have suffered greatly. So, your prayers are answered
> and others with prayer groups are not?? At times it appears to me that
> there is this race to get more and more people praying for you. The
> implication is that the more people who pray for you, the better chance
> you have. Very strange to me.
I should have pointed out, if you care to hear, that God answers prayer
very specifically. I have prayed for exactly what others have asked me
to pray for. Everyone's prayers are answered. Sometimes the answer
is no. I don't expect the understand the ways and plans of God. And
BTW, it is not a race -- in this case there is power in numbers. Some
are unsolicited -- like my surgeon praying for guidance for him and
the operating team during my breast surgery. That certainly helped my
spirits going in. But after reading your response, saddly I don't expect
you
to understand that.

>You are welcome to believe someone is looking down on you or "in a better
>place." However, I too was greatly relieved when my Dad passed away at age
>97. He suffered greatly in his last year ... and as a result so did I. So,
>yes, death can be better than living under certain circumstances.

I am sorry to hear that your Father suffered so. Sometimes I have prayed
or been asked to pray that suffering is relieved by passing on. If you
prefer to view his lingering event in a non-religous way; perhaps he was
not ready to leave or did not think you wanted him to.

> I TRULY wish I did NOT think this way. I have read philosophical writings
> "proving" the existence of God and writings debunking the first writings.
> Incidentally, some of these writings were written by brilliant
> mathematicians (my field) and it's almost like an alter-ego. Brilliant
> logic in proving mathematical theorems and yet no logic in the
> philosophical treatises.
I have read somewhere (don't recall where -- not the internet, though) that
far more physicists than mathematicians or scientists believe in God.
Apparently the study of their discipline has led them to conclude
that the vast complexities of the universe can not possibly be a chaotic
accident but rather a grand plan.

> Oh, gee, I said I wouldn't get into a religious debate and now it looks
> like I am doing just that.

Oh and I didn't plan to get into a non-religious debate. I am not
equipped to argue with a well-read mathematician. Although a bit
of non-Christian pride slips in here as I must tell you that I am not
uneducated or unread. In fact, except for the math (I have overcome
severe math anxiety ;-)) I have philosophically been to most of the places
you have and found them wanting. I went an absurd step further and
studied religious writings (just short of learning Greek and Hebrew)
to carry me through agnosticism and to the brink of atheism.
Fortunately I found my way back. All I had to do was realize I am
not in control. All my education, intelligence and talent didn't keep
me from screwing up by the numbers.

<snipped>

> As I said, my religious opinions haven't changed (well, they have gotten a
> tad more entrenched). In all other matters I think I have changed. I think
> I've grown and evolved. My opinions on politics and other aspects of life
> have mellowed and I hope have been infused by wisdom and experience. I
> find it odd that my religious views have NOT changed!

Perhaps they will someday. You are not *that* old.

> Again, thanks for your response. I truly truly hope I haven't offended
> anyone by my views. I know this is a SUPPORT group and I hope others will
> look at this thread as an important life issue

Thank you for your response as well and no offense is taken by me. I agree
it is an important life issue.

<snipped>
Marsha
<Snipped the part of that Mel top-posted on>

"Eddie Van Huffel" <edvanhuffel@cox.net> wrote in message
news:t87lk2l9n8do7m2s73s1ua6o4fjr58j3ke@4ax.com...
> Well, maybe you don't believe. However, from my point of view, and the
> activities I involve myself in at Christmas time, I know many happy
> Seniors whom
> I visit at Christmas Parties, and Children whom I talk to at a hospital
> here
> during the week before Christmas. Santa may or may not exist, but the
> smiles on
> the Children I meet and talk to in the ER, are definitely genuine. Why do
> I do
> it? It is sort of a pay back for all of the good that the Hospital
> provided me
> when I had some real problems. I don't do the gig professionally, but I
> do have
> an excellent Christmas when it's over. This year, at the advise of the
> Chief of
> Oncological Staff, I plan to spend a day in the Chemo Lab talking to
> patients,
> and even they enjoy the visit even if only it is a departure from the
> monotony
> of transfusion. The whole concept comes from my belief in God, and what
> he put
> me here to do.
>
> Good Luck.
>
>
I think that's a truly wonderful thing that you do. Christmas is a magical
time for most, and taking the time and care to visit those in hospital to
raise their spirits is really thoughtful of you.

My children no longer believe in Father Christmas and it's lost a little of
the sparkle. No mince pies and sherry under the tree for me ;-)

Warm Hugs

Alayne

MZB said...
> Yes, I can afford a bible. My purpose, however, is not to get into a
> religious debate here. Suffice it to say it was written by man and I just
> don't buy the miracles. (Incidentally, was the parting of the Red Sea a
> biblical reference).
>
It was written by several men at various times from what we now call BC
to several years after the events of the first half of the first
century. There are many other writings from around those times as well:
a complicated and lengthy process went into deciding which of those were
included in the final version of what we now know as the Bible. Even
today there are at least two versions: one with the apocrypha[1] and the
one without.

The earliest written are not necessarily the first ones you encounter
when you open the cover; the most recent not necessarily the ones
towards the end. All of them have benefitted from what we call the oral
tradition, i.e. the passing down of stories from generation to
generation and the earliest ones were probably only written down years
after the events they portray. There are very eye-witness accounts, but
there are some... or so we think.

Look on the Bible as a sort of history book with a religious slant
rather than as a 'holy' tome and you'll get an easier read through it.
It's certainly worth reading - if only to discover where Shakespeare got
so many of his quotes from!

[1] Apocrypha simply means 'hidden'. There's nothing 'odd' about the
writings in the apocrypha. They appear in the latin version of the
Bible (the Vulgate) and in the Roman Catholic version; they don't appear
in the Protestant version. There are reasons, but as Joe will be only
too glad to tell you, it's complicated. Very complicated.

--
Em

On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 08:09:01 -0900, MZB wrote
(in article <Ow42h.41$Da4.32@newsfe02.lga>):

> Just curious?? I really do not believe in God one iota.
> It flies in the face of logic. How many times can you say it was God's will
> when these tragedies occur. Randomness seems to play a greater role (and I
> am not talking just about cancer).
>
> Anyway, I will spare the group any further atheist rant as my question goes
> in another direction. I have a few friends that are TRULY DEEPLY religious.
> I find they can handle life's tragedies much better than I can. They can say
> that so and so is in a better place and they believe that. I really envy the
> peace they find with such beliefs. It would be nice to have that comfort; I
> think it's great and that's a real value of religion. It would be nice to
> think that we have a shot at going somewhere better. I mean it is hard to
> comprehend being totally GONE.
>
> But for those of us who don't have those beliefs, I think it's tough.
>
> I read this board quite a bit as I've been a cancer victim (minor cancer)
> slightly and I've lost my father, friends, and co-workers to cancer so this
> board has been a wonderful source of solace. I also have a variety of
> annoying medical problems. But I read all these religious notes and frankly
> I just don't buy it one bit.
>
> Anyway, I wonder if anyone else shares such views? It's something we don't
> often discuss, but where else than this Board is there a better place to at
> least talk about such an issue??
>
> They say there are no atheists in foxholes. But I know as I got educated my
> beliefs evolved into the aforementioned and despite reading, etc. my views
> on this issue have not changed in 40 years. Sadly (and I do mean sadly) I
> suspect I would be that atheist in the foxhole!!
>
> I've enjoyed reading all your posts and would welcome your opinions/views on
> such issues.
>
> Mel
>
>

Mel,

Just another believer. It's weird, but being diagnosed strengthened my
faith - not eroding it. I'm not much of a pulpit pounder, but I've found
the experience tremendously liberating. Many around me, the family, have
shocked me when they lost their faith. Takes all kinds. BTW - I don't
make deals with God, just do the best I can from day to day.

George J.

On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 17:25:32 -0900, 46erjoe wrote
(in article <3q9lk2h0aphpadr3hf4214p1sdb4e7pvuj@4ax.com>):

> On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 20:41:50 -0500, Eddie Van Huffel
> <edvanhuffel@cox.net> wrotF:
>
>> Well, maybe you don't believe. However, from my point of view, and the
>> activities I involve myself in at Christmas time, I know many happy Seniors
>> whom
>> I visit at Christmas Parties, and Children whom I talk to at a hospital here
>> during the week before Christmas. Santa may or may not exist, but the
>> smiles on
>> the Children I meet and talk to in the ER, are definitely genuine. Why do
>> I do
>> it? It is sort of a pay back for all of the good that the Hospital
>> provided me
>> when I had some real problems. I don't do the gig professionally, but I do
>> have
>> an excellent Christmas when it's over. This year, at the advise of the
>> Chief of
>> Oncological Staff, I plan to spend a day in the Chemo Lab talking to
>> patients,
>> and even they enjoy the visit even if only it is a departure from the
>> monotony
>> of transfusion. The whole concept comes from my belief in God, and what he
>> put
>> me here to do.
>>
>> Good Luck.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 22:24:26 -0000, Emily <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Eric Greene said...
>>>> There is also no evidence for Santa Claus, but I don't consider myself
>>>> an "aclausist" - if you understand the similarities between atheism and
>>>> aclausism.
>>>>
>>> Plenty of evidence that Santa Claus is a made-up thing however. And not
>>> only that but an entirely implausible one. Research will show that the
>>> concept of Santa Claus is based on the real 'Saint' Nicholas; the red
>>> outfit and white beard etc are all recent additions to the theme. I
>>> have told my children the truth about Santa Claus right from the start
>>> and am an active 'aclausist' - but that's the first time I've seen my
>>> anti-Santa stance given a name.
>>>
>>> As far as God is concerned however there is, if not evidence or definite
>>> proof, then at least a fairly well documented and authenticated account
>>> (both written and verbal) of certain events in what we now call first
>>> century Palestine. What you (generic) make of those accounts is up to
>>> you; the accounts definitely bear looking into carefully though: mass
>>> hallucinations very rarely (if ever) happen. Has anyone ever actually
>>> encountered one such?
>>>
>>> Food for thought, at least.
>>
>>
>> Grateful to be back.
>>
>> Eddie MD OTF
>
>
> I've always felt that there is a place for a paid or voluntary
> "chaplain" (not sure if the term would be appropriate) in the chemo
> treatment rooms. The nurses are kind and caring, but they do not have
> a lot of time to devote to the emotional/spiritual needs of the
> patients and they seldom get to know anybody on a first-name basis.
> When I got there for my first treatment, I was a nervous wreck. I
> would have appreciated having a knowledgeable and caring person beside
> me to help me deal with the fears I was experiencing and enabling me
> to dig deep into my own spirituality for help. I have noticed that a
> significant number of patients bring Bibles with them into the
> treatment rooms. Crisis situations cause people to probe the
> faith/non-faith question.

Joe,

I get my care at Providence Hospital in Anchorage. If you identify yourself
as a person of faith they don't let you do treatments unless you talk to a
councilor first. Mine is a former priest (married) who served as a chaplain
in 'Nam (4 tours), we clicked right away. He is a great person who is
extraordinarily practical. I keep my bible in my PDA and have transfered
many of the books of the New Testament to my iPod to listen to when I con't
read because of vision changes.

BTW, glad to see you are still here too.

George J.

as a yogi says--they are those who know god, and thsoe who deny god

when you look into it all the problems in the world are caused by humans

god created negativity, and it is a bit out of hand

most folk are completely oblivious to the medical tyrant who ahs suppressed
cancer cures and the rest

http://www.whale.to/b/godhead.html


"MZB" <moo@noway.prudigy.net> wrote in message
news:Ow42h.41$Da4.32@newsfe02.lga...
> Just curious?? I really do not believe in God one iota.
> It flies in the face of logic. How many times can you say it was God's
> will when these tragedies occur. Randomness seems to play a greater role
> (and I am not talking just about cancer).
>
> Anyway, I will spare the group any further atheist rant as my question
> goes in another direction. I have a few friends that are TRULY DEEPLY
> religious. I find they can handle life's tragedies much better than I can.
> They can say that so and so is in a better place and they believe that. I
> really envy the peace they find with such beliefs. It would be nice to
> have that comfort; I think it's great and that's a real value of
> religion. It would be nice to think that we have a shot at going somewhere
> better. I mean it is hard to comprehend being totally GONE.
>
> But for those of us who don't have those beliefs, I think it's tough.
>
> I read this board quite a bit as I've been a cancer victim (minor cancer)
> slightly and I've lost my father, friends, and co-workers to cancer so
> this board has been a wonderful source of solace. I also have a variety of
> annoying medical problems. But I read all these religious notes and
> frankly I just don't buy it one bit.
>
> Anyway, I wonder if anyone else shares such views? It's something we don't
> often discuss, but where else than this Board is there a better place to
> at least talk about such an issue??
>
> They say there are no atheists in foxholes. But I know as I got educated
> my beliefs evolved into the aforementioned and despite reading, etc. my
> views on this issue have not changed in 40 years. Sadly (and I do mean
> sadly) I suspect I would be that atheist in the foxhole!!
>
> I've enjoyed reading all your posts and would welcome your opinions/views
> on such issues.
>
> Mel
>

JOHN wrote:

> as a yogi says--they are those who know god, and thsoe who deny god
>
> when you look into it all the problems in the world are caused by humans
>
> god created negativity, and it is a bit out of hand
>
> most folk are completely oblivious to the medical tyrant who ahs suppressed
> cancer cures and the rest
>
> http://www.whale.to/b/godhead.html

Adjust your filters, folks.
john@btinternet.com
It's john, (changed his email address)
here a conspiracy,
there a conspiracy,
everywhere a conspiracy, John
J

Thanks again for responding.
I think one sentence in your response summarizes my own confusion:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Everyone's prayers are answered. Sometimes the answer
is no.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Once again, to me this means absolutely nothing then. It makes no sense.
Everything is explained by saying all prayers are answered one way or the
other. When everything is explained that way, really nothing is explained.

Oh, well, let me thank everyone for their input.

Mel






"Mizz Marcia Ryder" <MizzOtis@regrets.com> wrote in message
news:b2B2h.21244$Cq3.15626@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com. ..
>
>>"MZB" wrote :
>> Thanks for your well-thought out response.
>> Let me correct/elaborate on a few items:
>>
>> I actually did have a minor cancer: superficial basal cell carcinoma on
>> my
> <sniped> But, yes, there ARE minor cancers!
>
> I suppose I meant I've known people with the same kind of "minor"
> cancer you've had and they were still scared out of their wits at first.
> But yes the consequences and treatment can certainly be worse.
>
> <snipped the part where you said you don't want to get into
> a religious debate. I trust you don't.>
>
>> I am pleased that you feel that prayers have helped you avoid some of the
>> pain and side effects that often accompanies treatment. Yet, I've had
>> very religious friends who have suffered greatly. So, your prayers are
>> answered and others with prayer groups are not?? At times it appears to
>> me that there is this race to get more and more people praying for you.
>> The implication is that the more people who pray for you, the better
>> chance you have. Very strange to me.
> I should have pointed out, if you care to hear, that God answers prayer
> very specifically. I have prayed for exactly what others have asked me
> to pray for. Everyone's prayers are answered. Sometimes the answer
> is no. I don't expect the understand the ways and plans of God. And
> BTW, it is not a race -- in this case there is power in numbers. Some
> are unsolicited -- like my surgeon praying for guidance for him and
> the operating team during my breast surgery. That certainly helped my
> spirits going in. But after reading your response, saddly I don't expect
> you
> to understand that.
>
>>You are welcome to believe someone is looking down on you or "in a better
>>place." However, I too was greatly relieved when my Dad passed away at age
>>97. He suffered greatly in his last year ... and as a result so did I. So,
>>yes, death can be better than living under certain circumstances.
>
> I am sorry to hear that your Father suffered so. Sometimes I have prayed
> or been asked to pray that suffering is relieved by passing on. If you
> prefer to view his lingering event in a non-religous way; perhaps he was
> not ready to leave or did not think you wanted him to.
>
>> I TRULY wish I did NOT think this way. I have read philosophical writings
>> "proving" the existence of God and writings debunking the first writings.
>> Incidentally, some of these writings were written by brilliant
>> mathematicians (my field) and it's almost like an alter-ego. Brilliant
>> logic in proving mathematical theorems and yet no logic in the
>> philosophical treatises.
> I have read somewhere (don't recall where -- not the internet, though)
> that
> far more physicists than mathematicians or scientists believe in God.
> Apparently the study of their discipline has led them to conclude
> that the vast complexities of the universe can not possibly be a chaotic
> accident but rather a grand plan.
>
>> Oh, gee, I said I wouldn't get into a religious debate and now it looks
>> like I am doing just that.
>
> Oh and I didn't plan to get into a non-religious debate. I am not
> equipped to argue with a well-read mathematician. Although a bit
> of non-Christian pride slips in here as I must tell you that I am not
> uneducated or unread. In fact, except for the math (I have overcome
> severe math anxiety ;-)) I have philosophically been to most of the
> places
> you have and found them wanting. I went an absurd step further and
> studied religious writings (just short of learning Greek and Hebrew)
> to carry me through agnosticism and to the brink of atheism.
> Fortunately I found my way back. All I had to do was realize I am
> not in control. All my education, intelligence and talent didn't keep
> me from screwing up by the numbers.
>
> <snipped>
>
>> As I said, my religious opinions haven't changed (well, they have gotten
>> a tad more entrenched). In all other matters I think I have changed. I
>> think I've grown and evolved. My opinions on politics and other aspects
>> of life have mellowed and I hope have been infused by wisdom and
>> experience. I find it odd that my religious views have NOT changed!
>
> Perhaps they will someday. You are not *that* old.
>
>> Again, thanks for your response. I truly truly hope I haven't offended
>> anyone by my views. I know this is a SUPPORT group and I hope others will
>> look at this thread as an important life issue
>
> Thank you for your response as well and no offense is taken by me. I
> agree
> it is an important life issue.
>
> <snipped>
> Marsha
> <Snipped the part of that Mel top-posted on>
>
>

MZB said...
> Thanks again for responding.
> I think one sentence in your response summarizes my own confusion:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Everyone's prayers are answered. Sometimes the answer
> is no.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Once again, to me this means absolutely nothing then.
>
Yebbut, imagine you're God. Someone prays to you ever so devoutly, and
requests millionnaire status. You're hardly going to say 'yes' just
like that...

I think the thing is that all of us have to die, one way or another.
Look at it this way: I've got five children so there are seven of us
living in my house. Let's suppose I don't die, and each of my children
has three or four children. We're all still living when my
grandchildren reproduce, and... it's getting a tad overcrowded in this
neighbourhood, but I've prayed to be cured of this, that and the other,
and so have my children and grandchildren, and the answer's always been
'yes'. It's not practical. Sometimes the answer has to be 'no', or
maybe "no, sorry, not this time". There was a hymn I used to sing at
Sunday school when I was little that said the answers to prayers could
be yes, no or wait. There's probably a maybe in there somewhere as
well.

Or how about this: As much as I love my childr