chemo/swelling/diuretics - question

I'm currently on Doxil for recurrent ovarian cancer. One of the many side
effects of the Doxil I've experienced is water retention/swelling. About 20
pounds worth. The treatment is every 4 weeks, and the fluid build-up
doesn't seem to drain as the weeks pass from the last dose.

Anyway, it's very uncomfortable, and for some reason the oncologist won't
give me a diuretic (and won't explain why either). Is there something about
a diuretic that makes the chemo drugs pass out of your system too quickly
(before it attacks the cancer) or something ?

One of the other possible side effects of Doxil is heart damage leading to
congestive heart failure. They seem to indicate that this swelling is
unrelated to CHF, but they haven't retested my heart yet either...

Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing ?

"Anne" <AnneWithAnE@tpsrept.edu> wrote in
news:KVmNh.3321$8l2.176@trnddc01:

> I'm currently on Doxil for recurrent ovarian cancer. One of the many
> side effects of the Doxil I've experienced is water
> retention/swelling. About 20 pounds worth. The treatment is every 4
> weeks, and the fluid build-up doesn't seem to drain as the weeks pass
> from the last dose.
>
> Anyway, it's very uncomfortable, and for some reason the oncologist
> won't give me a diuretic (and won't explain why either). Is there
> something about a diuretic that makes the chemo drugs pass out of your
> system too quickly (before it attacks the cancer) or something ?
>
> One of the other possible side effects of Doxil is heart damage
> leading to congestive heart failure. They seem to indicate that this
> swelling is unrelated to CHF, but they haven't retested my heart yet
> either...
>
> Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing ?
>
Where is the fluid buildup most uncomfortable, Anne? If in the legs/feet,
you might ask your doc about compression stockings.

Fig

Anne schreef:
>
> Anyway, it's very uncomfortable, and for some reason the oncologist won't
> give me a diuretic (and won't explain why either). Is there something about
> a diuretic that makes the chemo drugs pass out of your system too quickly
> (before it attacks the cancer) or something ?
>
>
>
Hi Anne,

I had swelling in hand and feet while on chemo and did get a diuretic.
Th side effect however can be that you lose to much chemicals and
minerals and your kalium is to low. That can lead to problems with the
heart. Maybe the onc is extra careful because your chemo has risks for
the heart? He should explain though, why he doesn't give you the
duretic. I didn't take them on a regular basis, just when the swelling
got really bad.

Things that help are: keep walking. If you sit down or lie down to much
or stand, the problem gets worse. So try to walk everyday, many short
walks. Try to drink and drink and some more. No to much of course but
2,5-3 liters. I don't know if you already do that? Sometimes people
think if they don't drink much, there will be less swelling, but the
opposite is true. It's best to keep your feet up as much as possible
when you are resting. You can put a few pillows inder your feet while in
bed or on the couch.

Hope the swelling gets better soon.

Anne

"Figgertoes" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:Xns98FE7652D1AEfiggertoes@216.168.3.44...
| "Anne" <AnneWithAnE@tpsrept.edu> wrote in
| news:KVmNh.3321$8l2.176@trnddc01:
|
| > I'm currently on Doxil for recurrent ovarian cancer. One of the many
| > side effects of the Doxil I've experienced is water
| > retention/swelling. About 20 pounds worth. The treatment is every 4
| > weeks, and the fluid build-up doesn't seem to drain as the weeks pass
| > from the last dose.
| >
| > Anyway, it's very uncomfortable, and for some reason the oncologist
| > won't give me a diuretic (and won't explain why either). Is there
| > something about a diuretic that makes the chemo drugs pass out of your
| > system too quickly (before it attacks the cancer) or something ?
| >
| > One of the other possible side effects of Doxil is heart damage
| > leading to congestive heart failure. They seem to indicate that this
| > swelling is unrelated to CHF, but they haven't retested my heart yet
| > either...
| >
| > Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing ?
| >
| Where is the fluid buildup most uncomfortable, Anne? If in the legs/feet,
| you might ask your doc about compression stockings.

Thanks for the suggestions. The swelling is bad in the ankles/calves and in
the abdomen.

"starfleet" <starfleet1960@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:46061e59$0$710$5fc3050@dreader2.news.tiscali. nl...
| Anne schreef:
| >
| > Anyway, it's very uncomfortable, and for some reason the oncologist
won't
| > give me a diuretic (and won't explain why either). Is there something
about
| > a diuretic that makes the chemo drugs pass out of your system too
quickly
| > (before it attacks the cancer) or something ?
| >
| >
| >
| Hi Anne,
|
| I had swelling in hand and feet while on chemo and did get a diuretic.
| Th side effect however can be that you lose to much chemicals and
| minerals and your kalium is to low. That can lead to problems with the
| heart. Maybe the onc is extra careful because your chemo has risks for
| the heart? He should explain though, why he doesn't give you the
| duretic. I didn't take them on a regular basis, just when the swelling
| got really bad.
|
| Things that help are: keep walking. If you sit down or lie down to much
| or stand, the problem gets worse. So try to walk everyday, many short
| walks. Try to drink and drink and some more. No to much of course but
| 2,5-3 liters. I don't know if you already do that? Sometimes people
| think if they don't drink much, there will be less swelling, but the
| opposite is true. It's best to keep your feet up as much as possible
| when you are resting. You can put a few pillows inder your feet while in
| bed or on the couch.
|
| Hope the swelling gets better soon.
|
| Anne

Thanks for the ideas ! I guess I'll just have to ask about that diuretic !
I wonder if there are any natural diuretic things ? I think I read maybe
leeks are (no pun intended !) ?

Anne wrote:

> I'm currently on Doxil for recurrent ovarian cancer. One of the many side
> effects of the Doxil I've experienced is water retention/swelling. About 20
> pounds worth. The treatment is every 4 weeks, and the fluid build-up
> doesn't seem to drain as the weeks pass from the last dose.
>
> Anyway, it's very uncomfortable, and for some reason the oncologist won't
> give me a diuretic (and won't explain why either). Is there something about
> a diuretic that makes the chemo drugs pass out of your system too quickly
> (before it attacks the cancer) or something ?
>
> One of the other possible side effects of Doxil is heart damage leading to
> congestive heart failure. They seem to indicate that this swelling is
> unrelated to CHF, but they haven't retested my heart yet either...
>
> Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing ?

Anne,
How many chemos have you had since you were first diagnosed?

You've heard that chemo resistance sets in around the 3rd or 4th regimen?

Doxil seems (to me) to be some kind of watered down version of Doxorubicin and
Adriamycin.

This is rhetoric from
http://patient.cancerconsultants.com...cumentId=39354
"Doxil is a class of chemotherapy agents referred to as an anthracycline. Doxil
is specifically created to deliver more of the chemotherapy agent to the cancer
cells rather than to healthy tissues."<end quote> They're comparing one to
another or doxil combined with another combination. Of course in clinical
trials it proably would not be ethical to compare vs placebo to see if it
actually does anything at all for a larger population...hmm maybe I'll try to
see what the Phase I or II results showed, if I can find them.
vs
<http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/NR/rdonlyres/75DDE6E8-46D9-4244-AD6D-693B9DAD9F43/19523/Doxorubicinmonograph_2Nov06.pdf>

Doxorubicin binds directly to DNA via intercalation between base pairs on the
DNA helix.2 Doxorubicin also inhibits DNA repair by inhibiting topoisomerase II.
These actions result in the blockade of DNA and RNA synthesis and fragmentation
of DNA.4 Doxorubicin is also a powerful iron-chelator. The iron-doxorubicin
complex can bind DNA and cell membranes producing free radicals that immediately
cleave DNA and cell membranes. Although maximally cytotoxic in S phase,
doxorubicin is not cell cycle-specific.2,<end quote>

Sometimes I think they (oncologists) calculate the patient's expected "time to
progression", then pick a chemo, lower the dose to one that won't cause cardiac
or kidney or liverproblems, divide into 4 weeks worth regimens and there ya go,
you got your treatment (whether it's dong something or nothing). Makes everyone
happy, but is it really doing something for you?

I think after 2 regimens, epithelial cell tumors start growing (each) when
they're darned ready, regardless of treatment or not.

Any evidence that it's shrinking your tumor?
Have you been keeping a log of your CA-125 and CEA from time of diagnosis
(before surgery) to now? Sometimes patterns , over time, with those, can tell
you what is or isn't happening.

J

PS I think this is a Phase I, but combined with cyclophosphamide.
Three of 37 patients showed an objective response.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/n353txw60751883h/

"Anne" <AnneWithAnE@tpsrept.edu> wrote in
news:XewNh.21804$FD1.19655@trnddc05:

>
> "starfleet" <starfleet1960@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:46061e59$0$710$5fc3050@dreader2.news.tiscali. nl...
>| Anne schreef:
>| >
>| > Anyway, it's very uncomfortable, and for some reason the oncologist
> won't
>| > give me a diuretic (and won't explain why either). Is there
>| > something
> about
>| > a diuretic that makes the chemo drugs pass out of your system too
> quickly
>| > (before it attacks the cancer) or something ?
>| >
>| >
>| >
>| Hi Anne,
>|
>| I had swelling in hand and feet while on chemo and did get a
>| diuretic. Th side effect however can be that you lose to much
>| chemicals and minerals and your kalium is to low. That can lead to
>| problems with the heart. Maybe the onc is extra careful because your
>| chemo has risks for the heart? He should explain though, why he
>| doesn't give you the duretic. I didn't take them on a regular basis,
>| just when the swelling got really bad.
>|
>| Things that help are: keep walking. If you sit down or lie down to
>| much or stand, the problem gets worse. So try to walk everyday, many
>| short walks. Try to drink and drink and some more. No to much of
>| course but 2,5-3 liters. I don't know if you already do that?
>| Sometimes people think if they don't drink much, there will be less
>| swelling, but the opposite is true. It's best to keep your feet up as
>| much as possible when you are resting. You can put a few pillows
>| inder your feet while in bed or on the couch.
>|
>| Hope the swelling gets better soon.
>|
>| Anne
>
> Thanks for the ideas ! I guess I'll just have to ask about that
> diuretic ! I wonder if there are any natural diuretic things ? I
> think I read maybe leeks are (no pun intended !) ?
>
Anne,
I've read that tea is & that's why, if you drink it, you are supposed to
increase water. But I don't know if drinking tea would reduce
swelling/water retention.

Socks had a terrible time with foot/ankle swelling but mostly during the
last few weeks. They tried lasix briefly, but I don't think it got a
fair trial b/c his aunt was against it. Hospice brought out 6" stretch
bandages & they wrapped firmly but not too tightly. We took off at
night. Did a little good, but not much - still couldn't wear shoes. But
I have recently seen what the compression knee-highs do with my own water
retention problem (not nearly as severe as Socks') & it's impressive. I
use the 20/30 compression & found best prices at www.ameswalker.com.
Insurance covered a couple of pair.

Hospice was trying to line up someone to perform a special massage
technique, but it never happened. You might check with massage
therapists to see if they are familiar.

My friend with BC had a very severe case of foot/ankle swelling for over
a year. Turned purple & looked like would burst. Skin would weep. So
common cancer problem, it seems.

I wouldn't use the stockings without doc approval. Some of my healthy
friends do, especially for flying which some do several times weekly. A
male neighbor was flying on a business trip & ended up with thrombosis,
could have died. That increased the interest in my circle for these
knee-his & we find them so comfortable, we hate to take them off. I have
black & beige & they look pretty much like the tights I wore before with
long skirts/pants.

Fig

"J" <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote in message
news:4606B03C.87D565B0@execulink.com...
| Anne wrote:
|
| > I'm currently on Doxil for recurrent ovarian cancer. One of the many
side
| > effects of the Doxil I've experienced is water retention/swelling.
About 20
| > pounds worth. The treatment is every 4 weeks, and the fluid build-up
| > doesn't seem to drain as the weeks pass from the last dose.
| >
| > Anyway, it's very uncomfortable, and for some reason the oncologist
won't
| > give me a diuretic (and won't explain why either). Is there something
about
| > a diuretic that makes the chemo drugs pass out of your system too
quickly
| > (before it attacks the cancer) or something ?
| >
| > One of the other possible side effects of Doxil is heart damage leading
to
| > congestive heart failure. They seem to indicate that this swelling is
| > unrelated to CHF, but they haven't retested my heart yet either...
| >
| > Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing ?
|
| Anne,
| How many chemos have you had since you were first diagnosed?
|
| You've heard that chemo resistance sets in around the 3rd or 4th regimen?
|
| Doxil seems (to me) to be some kind of watered down version of Doxorubicin
and
| Adriamycin.
|
| This is rhetoric from
| http://patient.cancerconsultants.com...cumentId=39354
| "Doxil is a class of chemotherapy agents referred to as an anthracycline.
Doxil
| is specifically created to deliver more of the chemotherapy agent to the
cancer
| cells rather than to healthy tissues."<end quote> They're comparing one
to
| another or doxil combined with another combination. Of course in clinical
| trials it proably would not be ethical to compare vs placebo to see if it
| actually does anything at all for a larger population...hmm maybe I'll try
to
| see what the Phase I or II results showed, if I can find them.
| vs
|
<http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/NR/rdonlyres/75DDE6E8-46D9-4244-AD6D-693B9DAD9F43/19523/Doxorubicinmonograph_2Nov06.pdf>
|
| Doxorubicin binds directly to DNA via intercalation between base pairs on
the
| DNA helix.2 Doxorubicin also inhibits DNA repair by inhibiting
topoisomerase II.
| These actions result in the blockade of DNA and RNA synthesis and
fragmentation
| of DNA.4 Doxorubicin is also a powerful iron-chelator. The
iron-doxorubicin
| complex can bind DNA and cell membranes producing free radicals that
immediately
| cleave DNA and cell membranes. Although maximally cytotoxic in S phase,
| doxorubicin is not cell cycle-specific.2,<end quote>
|
| Sometimes I think they (oncologists) calculate the patient's expected
"time to
| progression", then pick a chemo, lower the dose to one that won't cause
cardiac
| or kidney or liverproblems, divide into 4 weeks worth regimens and there
ya go,
| you got your treatment (whether it's dong something or nothing). Makes
everyone
| happy, but is it really doing something for you?
|
| I think after 2 regimens, epithelial cell tumors start growing (each) when
| they're darned ready, regardless of treatment or not.
|
| Any evidence that it's shrinking your tumor?
| Have you been keeping a log of your CA-125 and CEA from time of diagnosis
| (before surgery) to now? Sometimes patterns , over time, with those, can
tell
| you what is or isn't happening.
|
| J
|
| PS I think this is a Phase I, but combined with cyclophosphamide.
| Three of 37 patients showed an objective response.
| http://www.springerlink.com/content/n353txw60751883h/
|

Hey there -

I appreciate your knowledge and all, but was just asking about swelling, so
really not mentally in the space to receive info about chemo resistance or
how this treatment won't work, etc in response to this particular question
!

Anyway, according to the Sloane Kettering guy that recommended it their
research has found Doxil to shrink recurrent OC tumors 1/3 of the time, to
keep them from growing 1/3 of the time, and to do nothing 1/3 of the time.
He puts the prognosis at a 50% chance of being alive in 3 years. The goal
is to shrink it enough to operate.

I have had 2 treatments. After the third they will check for impact (CT
scan, etc). The median time for response is 4 treatments with this stuff.

Yes, I track the CA125.

Doxil is a "stealth" version of Doxorubicin/Adriamycin. It is encapsulated
in fat, which both allows it to remain in the system longer, and lessens its
cardiac toxicity a great deal.

> |
> | PS I think this is a Phase I, but combined with cyclophosphamide.
> | Three of 37 patients showed an objective response.
> | http://www.springerlink.com/content/n353txw60751883h/
> |
>
> Hey there -
>
> I appreciate your knowledge and all, but was just asking about swelling,
> so
> really not mentally in the space to receive info about chemo resistance or
> how this treatment won't work, etc in response to this particular
> question
> !

J is only cutting and pasting from a web site,

> Anyway, according to the Sloane Kettering guy that recommended it their
> research has found Doxil to shrink recurrent OC tumors 1/3 of the time, to
> keep them from growing 1/3 of the time, and to do nothing 1/3 of the time.
> He puts the prognosis at a 50% chance of being alive in 3 years. The goal
> is to shrink it enough to operate.
>
> I have had 2 treatments. After the third they will check for impact (CT
> scan, etc). The median time for response is 4 treatments with this stuff.
>
> Yes, I track the CA125.
>
> Doxil is a "stealth" version of Doxorubicin/Adriamycin. It is
> encapsulated
> in fat, which both allows it to remain in the system longer, and lessens
> its
> cardiac toxicity a great deal.
>

Ask your health care team, Diuretics don't work unless you have excessive
fluid through out the body, but to answer your question, caffeine is a
natural diuretic.

Good luck, you are having treatment at a place most only can dream
about.....Alex
>

"alex" <alex@noemail.ctv> wrote in message
news:vMadnUXhevVrWpvbnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
|
|
| > |
| > | PS I think this is a Phase I, but combined with cyclophosphamide.
| > | Three of 37 patients showed an objective response.
| > | http://www.springerlink.com/content/n353txw60751883h/
| > |
| >
| > Hey there -
| >
| > I appreciate your knowledge and all, but was just asking about swelling,
| > so
| > really not mentally in the space to receive info about chemo resistance
or
| > how this treatment won't work, etc in response to this particular
| > question
| > !
|
| J is only cutting and pasting from a web site,
|
| > Anyway, according to the Sloane Kettering guy that recommended it their
| > research has found Doxil to shrink recurrent OC tumors 1/3 of the time,
to
| > keep them from growing 1/3 of the time, and to do nothing 1/3 of the
time.
| > He puts the prognosis at a 50% chance of being alive in 3 years. The
goal
| > is to shrink it enough to operate.
| >
| > I have had 2 treatments. After the third they will check for impact (CT
| > scan, etc). The median time for response is 4 treatments with this
stuff.
| >
| > Yes, I track the CA125.
| >
| > Doxil is a "stealth" version of Doxorubicin/Adriamycin. It is
| > encapsulated
| > in fat, which both allows it to remain in the system longer, and lessens
| > its
| > cardiac toxicity a great deal.
| >
|
| Ask your health care team, Diuretics don't work unless you have excessive
| fluid through out the body, but to answer your question, caffeine is a
| natural diuretic.
|
| Good luck, you are having treatment at a place most only can dream
| about.....Alex
| >

Thanks. Actually, I only had a single consult there, which insurance
wouldn't even pay for !

Anne wrote:

> ". The goalis to shrink it enough to operate.

> I have had 2 treatments. After the third they will check for impact (CT
> scan, etc). The median time for response is 4 treatments with this stuff.
>
> Yes, I track the CA125.
>

Thanks for answering some of my questions and good luck with the scan.
And the surgery.
J

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 15:05:58 -0400, "alex" <alex@noemail.ctv> wrote:

>

>
>J is only cutting and pasting from a web site,
>

Time for you to start on your meds again.




Grateful to be back.

Eddie MD OTF

> I'm currently on Doxil for recurrent ovarian cancer. One of the many side
> effects of the Doxil I've experienced is water retention/swelling. About
> 20
> pounds worth. The treatment is every 4 weeks, and the fluid build-up
> doesn't seem to drain as the weeks pass from the last dose.
>
> Anyway, it's very uncomfortable, and for some reason the oncologist won't
> give me a diuretic (and won't explain why either). Is there something
> about
> a diuretic that makes the chemo drugs pass out of your system too quickly
> (before it attacks the cancer) or something ?
>
> One of the other possible side effects of Doxil is heart damage leading to
> congestive heart failure. They seem to indicate that this swelling is
> unrelated to CHF, but they haven't retested my heart yet either...
>
> Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing ?

The swelling may be due to low albumen which is produced in the liver and is
a common problem in cancer patients. Diuretics often have limited use in
this situation but if the swelling gets very uncomfortable they may help.
Draining the ascites (abdominal fluid) is possible but has some
disadvantages in that reducing the abdominal pressure speeds the production
of the fluid and each time it is drained protein and other chemicals are
being lost.
It may be advisable to question how much benefit this chemo is giving you.
MIKE

"Mike Radcliffe" <mikeradcliffenospam@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:4608b29f$0$7401$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
|> I'm currently on Doxil for recurrent ovarian cancer. One of the many
side
| > effects of the Doxil I've experienced is water retention/swelling.
About
| > 20
| > pounds worth. The treatment is every 4 weeks, and the fluid build-up
| > doesn't seem to drain as the weeks pass from the last dose.
| >
| > Anyway, it's very uncomfortable, and for some reason the oncologist
won't
| > give me a diuretic (and won't explain why either). Is there something
| > about
| > a diuretic that makes the chemo drugs pass out of your system too
quickly
| > (before it attacks the cancer) or something ?
| >
| > One of the other possible side effects of Doxil is heart damage leading
to
| > congestive heart failure. They seem to indicate that this swelling is
| > unrelated to CHF, but they haven't retested my heart yet either...
| >
| > Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing ?
|
| The swelling may be due to low albumen which is produced in the liver and
is
| a common problem in cancer patients. Diuretics often have limited use in
| this situation but if the swelling gets very uncomfortable they may help.
| Draining the ascites (abdominal fluid) is possible but has some
| disadvantages in that reducing the abdominal pressure speeds the
production
| of the fluid and each time it is drained protein and other chemicals are
| being lost.
| It may be advisable to question how much benefit this chemo is giving you.
| MIKE
|

is it ascites if there is swelling in the legs too ? I thought it was just
water retention...

>
> is it ascites if there is swelling in the legs too ? I thought it was
> just
> water retention...
>

Can be, ask your doctor to check your blood work and they should be able to
answer your question, Alex

"alex" <alex@noemail.ctv> wrote in message
news:T4qdnam-irxpVJTbnZ2dnUVZ_tOmnZ2d@comcast.com...
|
| >
| > is it ascites if there is swelling in the legs too ? I thought it was
| > just
| > water retention...
| >
|
| Can be, ask your doctor to check your blood work and they should be able
to
| answer your question, Alex
|

OK, thanks. So what am I looking for as an indicator in the blood work ?

"Anne" <AnneWithAnE@tpsrept.edu> wrote in message
news:ILlOh.13469$un.9663@trnddc03...
>
> "alex" <alex@noemail.ctv> wrote in message
> news:T4qdnam-irxpVJTbnZ2dnUVZ_tOmnZ2d@comcast.com...
> |
> | >
> | > is it ascites if there is swelling in the legs too ? I thought it was
> | > just
> | > water retention...
> | >
> |
> | Can be, ask your doctor to check your blood work and they should be able
> to
> | answer your question, Alex
> |
>
> OK, thanks. So what am I looking for as an indicator in the blood work ?
>
>

Nothing in the bloodwork can diagnose ascites, despite what Alex thinks.
Ascites (fluid in the peritoneum) can exist alone, or there can be swelling
in the legs too. Low albumen in the blood can exacerbate both, but ascites
can be seen in patients with normal albumen.

On Mar 28, 1:23 am, "Steph" <s...@vancouvers.island> wrote:
> "Anne" <AnneWith...@tpsrept.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:ILlOh.13469$un.9663@trnddc03...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "alex" <a...@noemail.ctv> wrote in message
> >news:T4qdnam-irxpVJTbnZ2dnUVZ_tOmnZ2d@comcast.com...
> > |
> > | >
> > | > is it ascites if there is swelling in the legs too ? I thought it was
> > | > just
> > | > water retention...
> > | >
> > |
> > | Can be, ask your doctor to check your blood work and they should be able
> > to
> > | answer your question, Alex
> > |
>
> > OK, thanks. So what am I looking for as an indicator in the blood work ?
>
> Nothing in the bloodwork can diagnose ascites, despite what Alex thinks.
> Ascites (fluid in the peritoneum) can exist alone, or there can be swelling
> in the legs too. Low albumen in the blood can exacerbate both, but ascites
> can be seen in patients with normal albumen.


I never said that blood work shows ascites ( I was referring water
retention) to, but blood work can show a if a patient has CHF, low
albumen electrolyte imbalance etc. Unlike other people here I do not
diagnosis people over the internet, I have always said a clinical
evaluation by a competent health care professional.....that is why I
asked her to go to her doctor........

"Alex" <usenetgirl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175080942.027289.287860@b75g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
> On Mar 28, 1:23 am, "Steph" <s...@vancouvers.island> wrote:
>> "Anne" <AnneWith...@tpsrept.edu> wrote in message
>>
>> news:ILlOh.13469$un.9663@trnddc03...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > "alex" <a...@noemail.ctv> wrote in message
>> >news:T4qdnam-irxpVJTbnZ2dnUVZ_tOmnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> > |
>> > | >
>> > | > is it ascites if there is swelling in the legs too ? I thought it
>> > was
>> > | > just
>> > | > water retention...
>> > | >
>> > |
>> > | Can be, ask your doctor to check your blood work and they should be
>> > able
>> > to
>> > | answer your question, Alex
>> > |
>>
>> > OK, thanks. So what am I looking for as an indicator in the blood work
>> > ?
>>
>> Nothing in the bloodwork can diagnose ascites, despite what Alex thinks.
>> Ascites (fluid in the peritoneum) can exist alone, or there can be
>> swelling
>> in the legs too. Low albumen in the blood can exacerbate both, but
>> ascites
>> can be seen in patients with normal albumen.
>
>
> I never said that blood work shows ascites ( I was referring water
> retention) to, but blood work can show a if a patient has CHF, low
> albumen electrolyte imbalance etc. Unlike other people here I do not
> diagnosis people over the internet, I have always said a clinical
> evaluation by a competent health care professional.....that is why I
> asked her to go to her doctor........
>

Blood work cannot show CHF. Why don't you stick to what you know?
Then you'd post less

On Mar 28, 10:57 am, "Steph" <s...@vancouvers.island> wrote:
> "Alex" <usenetg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175080942.027289.287860@b75g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 1:23 am, "Steph" <s...@vancouvers.island> wrote:
> >> "Anne" <AnneWith...@tpsrept.edu> wrote in message
>
> >>news:ILlOh.13469$un.9663@trnddc03...
>
> >> > "alex" <a...@noemail.ctv> wrote in message
> >> >news:T4qdnam-irxpVJTbnZ2dnUVZ_tOmnZ2d@comcast.com...
> >> > |
> >> > | >
> >> > | > is it ascites if there is swelling in the legs too ? I thought it
> >> > was
> >> > | > just
> >> > | > water retention...
> >> > | >
> >> > |
> >> > | Can be, ask your doctor to check your blood work and they should be
> >> > able
> >> > to
> >> > | answer your question, Alex
> >> > |
>
> >> > OK, thanks. So what am I looking for as an indicator in the blood work
> >> > ?
>
> >> Nothing in the bloodwork can diagnose ascites, despite what Alex thinks.
> >> Ascites (fluid in the peritoneum) can exist alone, or there can be
> >> swelling
> >> in the legs too. Low albumen in the blood can exacerbate both, but
> >> ascites
> >> can be seen in patients with normal albumen.
>
> > I never said that blood work shows ascites ( I was referring water
> > retention) to, but blood work can show a if a patient has CHF, low
> > albumen electrolyte imbalance etc. Unlike other people here I do not
> > diagnosis people over the internet, I have always said a clinical
> > evaluation by a competent health care professional.....that is why I
> > asked her to go to her doctor........
>
> Blood work cannot show CHF. Why don't you stick to what you know?
> Then you'd post less- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Your ignorance is overwhelming.......
http://www.labtestsonline.org/unders...np/glance.html

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=10774

http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_ch...?storyid=15069


http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_...-blood-test.ht

"Alex" <usenetgirl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175105830.082788.14690@b75g2000hsg.googlegro ups.com...
> On Mar 28, 10:57 am, "Steph" <s...@vancouvers.island> wrote:
>> "Alex" <usenetg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1175080942.027289.287860@b75g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 28, 1:23 am, "Steph" <s...@vancouvers.island> wrote:
>> >> "Anne" <AnneWith...@tpsrept.edu> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:ILlOh.13469$un.9663@trnddc03...
>>
>> >> > "alex" <a...@noemail.ctv> wrote in message
>> >> >news:T4qdnam-irxpVJTbnZ2dnUVZ_tOmnZ2d@comcast.com...
>> >> > |
>> >> > | >
>> >> > | > is it ascites if there is swelling in the legs too ? I thought
>> >> > it
>> >> > was
>> >> > | > just
>> >> > | > water retention...
>> >> > | >
>> >> > |
>> >> > | Can be, ask your doctor to check your blood work and they should
>> >> > be
>> >> > able
>> >> > to
>> >> > | answer your question, Alex
>> >> > |
>>
>> >> > OK, thanks. So what am I looking for as an indicator in the blood
>> >> > work
>> >> > ?
>>
>> >> Nothing in the bloodwork can diagnose ascites, despite what Alex
>> >> thinks.
>> >> Ascites (fluid in the peritoneum) can exist alone, or there can be
>> >> swelling
>> >> in the legs too. Low albumen in the blood can exacerbate both, but
>> >> ascites
>> >> can be seen in patients with normal albumen.
>>
>> > I never said that blood work shows ascites ( I was referring water
>> > retention) to, but blood work can show a if a patient has CHF, low
>> > albumen electrolyte imbalance etc. Unlike other people here I do not
>> > diagnosis people over the internet, I have always said a clinical
>> > evaluation by a competent health care professional.....that is why I
>> > asked her to go to her doctor........
>>
>> Blood work cannot show CHF. Why don't you stick to what you know?
>> Then you'd post less- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Your ignorance is overwhelming.......
> http://www.labtestsonline.org/unders...np/glance.html
>
> http://www.news-medical.net/?id=10774
>
> http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_ch...?storyid=15069
>
>
> http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_...-blood-test.ht
>

Why do you post this bullshit?

Sure, blood tests might be useful for pinning down specific causes of CHF,
but CHF itself is a clinical diagnosis. It requires taking a history and
doing a careful physical examination............neither of which even
vaguely appear on your horizon.
http://www.texasheartinstitute.org/H...s/Cond/CHF.cfm

Give it a rest Alex and get back to trying to find personal info about
cancer care providers. A bit frustrating, was it?

Steph wrote:

> "Alex" <usenetgirl@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > On Mar 28, 10:57 am, "Steph" <s...@vancouvers.island> wrote:
> >> "Alex" <usenetg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> > On Mar 28, 1:23 am, "Steph" <s...@vancouvers.island> wrote:
> >> >> "Anne" <AnneWith...@tpsrept.edu> wrote in message
>
> >> >> > "alex" <a...@noemail.ctv> wrote in message
> >> >> > |
> >> >> > | >
> >> >> > | > is it ascites if there is swelling in the legs too ? I thought
> >> >> > it was just water retention...
>
> >> >> > | Can be, ask your doctor to check your blood work and they should
> >> >> > be able to answer your question, Alex
> >> >> > OK, thanks. So what am I looking for as an indicator in the blood
> >> >> > work?
> >>
> >> >> Nothing in the bloodwork can diagnose ascites, despite what Alex
> >> >> thinks.
> >> >> Ascites (fluid in the peritoneum) can exist alone, or there can be
> >> >> swelling
> >> >> in the legs too. Low albumen in the blood can exacerbate both, but
> >> >> ascites
> >> >> can be seen in patients with normal albumen.
> >>
> >> > I never said that blood work shows ascites ( I was referring water
> >> > retention) to, but blood work can show a if a patient has CHF, low
> >> > albumen electrolyte imbalance etc. Unlike other people here I do not
> >> > diagnosis people over the internet, I have always said a clinical
> >> > evaluation by a competent health care professional.....that is why I
> >> > asked her to go to her doctor........
> >>
> >> Blood work cannot show CHF. Why don't you stick to what you know?
> >> Then you'd post less- Hide quoted text -
> -
> >
> > Your ignorance is overwhelming.......
> <snipped> Alex's links
> >
>
> Why do you post this bullshit?
>
> Sure, blood tests might be useful for pinning down specific causes of CHF,
> but CHF itself is a clinical diagnosis. It requires taking a history and
> doing a careful physical examination............neither of which even
> vaguely appear on your horizon.
> http://www.texasheartinstitute.org/H...s/Cond/CHF.cfm

Yes, that was my experience (with my cat, but she freaks when I mention a cat)

>
> Give it a rest Alex and get back to trying to find personal info about
> cancer care providers. A bit frustrating, was it?

Finding people you know and pumping them with questions?
There've been several dirtbags, on several newsgroups, doing similar to other
doctors...
J

"J" <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote in message
news:460B9BC3.1C41CE0F@execulink.com...
> Steph wrote:
>
>>
>> Give it a rest Alex and get back to trying to find personal info about
>> cancer care providers. A bit frustrating, was it?
>
> Finding people you know and pumping them with questions?
> There've been several dirtbags, on several newsgroups, doing similar to
> other
> doctors...
> J
>
>

Someone has been trying to get personal information about oncologists at the
Agency by using the Freedom of Information Act. Fortunately, the attempt was
a miserable failure.
Wonder who it was?
Wonder if she wanted to send me flowers?

On Mar 29, 11:04 am, "Steph" <s...@vancouvers.island> wrote:
> "J" <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote in message
>
> news:460B9BC3.1C41CE0F@execulink.com...
>
> > Steph wrote:
>
> >> Give it a rest Alex and get back to trying to find personal info about
> >> cancer care providers. A bit frustrating, was it?
>
> > Finding people you know and pumping them with questions?
> > There've been several dirtbags, on several newsgroups, doing similar to
> > other
> > doctors...
> > J
>
> Someone has been trying to get personal information about oncologists at the
> Agency by using the Freedom of Information Act. Fortunately, the attempt was
> a miserable failure.
> Wonder who it was?
> Wonder if she wanted to send me flowers?

I have no idea what you are taking about, here in the US information
about health care providers is open and public. So in your country you
have hide your qualifications that someone has to file a FOIA You have
a huge ego to think I would waste my time filing any FOIA and in a
foreign country ..... before you make any more accusations you better
have proof ( which you don't have).Anyways you leave a wide trail on
the internet I see enough information to know you are a physican to
avoid an person to avoid.

Steph wrote:

> Someone has been trying to get personal information about oncologists at the
> Agency by using the Freedom of Information Act. Fortunately, the attempt was
> a miserable failure.

Thanks Steph.
Very strange.
I would suggest that you put their names (and yours) on a board and look for
(think about) commonalities.
Will contact off group, if I have other thoughts.
J

"Alex" <usenetgirl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175204568.280260.64980@r56g2000hsd.googlegro ups.com...
> On Mar 29, 11:04 am, "Steph" <s...@vancouvers.island> wrote:
>> "J" <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote in message
>>
>> news:460B9BC3.1C41CE0F@execulink.com...
>>
>> > Steph wrote:
>>
>> >> Give it a rest Alex and get back to trying to find personal info about
>> >> cancer care providers. A bit frustrating, was it?
>>
>> > Finding people you know and pumping them with questions?
>> > There've been several dirtbags, on several newsgroups, doing similar to
>> > other
>> > doctors...
>> > J
>>
>> Someone has been trying to get personal information about oncologists at
>> the
>> Agency by using the Freedom of Information Act. Fortunately, the attempt
>> was
>> a miserable failure.
>> Wonder who it was?
>> Wonder if she wanted to send me flowers?
>
> I have no idea what you are taking about, here in the US information
> about health care providers is open and public. So in your country you
> have hide your qualifications that someone has to file a FOIA You have
> a huge ego to think I would waste my time filing any FOIA and in a
> foreign country ..... before you make any more accusations you better
> have proof ( which you don't have).Anyways you leave a wide trail on
> the internet I see enough information to know you are a physican to
> avoid an person to avoid.
>

I said "someone". Nobody accused YOU of anything.
But guilty consciences speak volumes, maybe............

Yes, please, PLEASE, avoid me

>
> I said "someone". Nobody accused YOU of anything.
> But guilty consciences speak volumes, maybe............
>

Hello.....Steph said:
>> > Steph wrote:


>> >> Give it a rest Alex and get back to trying to find personal info about
>> >> cancer care providers. A bit frustrating, was it?

Now you say it wasn't aimed at me. Rather than wasting time on this
board you should be reviewing current treatments in CHF.

Finding people you know and pumping them with questions?
There've been several dirtbags, on several newsgroups, doing similar
to other
doctors...
J

"Alex" <usenetgirl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1175309821.654636.203930@o5g2000hsb.googlegro ups.com...
>
>>
>> I said "someone". Nobody accused YOU of anything.
>> But guilty consciences speak volumes, maybe............
>>
>
> Hello.....Steph said:
>>> > Steph wrote:
>
>
>>> >> Give it a rest Alex and get back to trying to find personal info
>>> >> about
>>> >> cancer care providers. A bit frustrating, was it?
>
> Now you say it wasn't aimed at me. Rather than wasting time on this
> board you should be reviewing current treatments in CHF.
>
> Finding people you know and pumping them with questions?
> There've been several dirtbags, on several newsgroups, doing similar
> to other
> doctors...
> J
>

I didn't raise the issue of CHF - you did, even though you got the facts
wrong.
And stop butchering the postings. It's hard to tell who said what by the
time you've finished. Maybe you should just accept that the whole computer
thing is a bit beyond you?

On Mar 31, 12:51 am, "Steph" <s...@vancouvers.island> wrote:
> "Alex" <usenetg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1175309821.654636.203930@o5g2000hsb.googlegro ups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> I said "someone". Nobody accused YOU of anything.
> >> But guilty consciences speak volumes, maybe............
>
> > Hello.....Steph said:
> >>> > Steph wrote:
>
> >>> >> Give it a rest Alex and get back to trying to find personal info
> >>> >> about
> >>> >> cancer care providers. A bit frustrating, was it?
>
> > Now you say it wasn't aimed at me. Rather than wasting time on this
> > board you should be reviewing current treatments in CHF.
>
> > Finding people you know and pumping them with questions?
> > There've been several dirtbags, on several newsgroups, doing similar
> > to other
> > doctors...
> > J
>
> I didn't raise the issue of CHF - you did, even though you got the facts
> wrong.
> And stop butchering the postings.
I learned from your Pal, J who is mastered
It's hard to tell who said what by the
> time you've finished. Maybe you should just accept that the whole computer
> thing is a bit beyond you?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Funny... The first computer I used had a modem of 300bps.....then I
upgraded to 1200..I use I have used the internet before the web no
problem ....the days of archie, gopher and FIDO net. I use the
computer all day at work ( Since the early 1990's)....no problem.... I
was involved in nursing online group in early 1990s.

Seems to me you are a bully when one challenges you, I will not be
run off

On Mar 31, 10:26 am, "Alex" <usenetg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 31, 12:51 am, "Steph" <s...@vancouvers.island> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Alex" <usenetg...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:1175309821.654636.203930@o5g2000hsb.googlegr oups.com...
>
> > >> I said "someone". Nobody accused YOU of anything.
> > >> But guilty consciences speak volumes, may