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  #1  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
John Corliss
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Default Please help me find a website.

I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed that a
famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.

IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.

Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
looking for the site.

Can anybody help me out here?

TIA

--
John Corliss
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  #2  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
Treat-Cancer.nl
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.

On 26 mei, 14:41, John Corliss <jcorl...@fake.invalid> wrote:
> I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed that a
> famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
> found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
> suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
> he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
> cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
> would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.
>
> IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
> fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.
>
> Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
> amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
> looking for the site.
>
> Can anybody help me out here?
>
> TIA
>
> --
> John Corliss


It appears to me that the story can't be true. Making someone immune
for cancer is not something that can be done like this. Maybe you are
referring to immunotherapy, where the immune system is used to fight
cancer cells???


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  #3  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
John Corliss
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.

Treat-Cancer.nl wrote:
> John Corliss wrote:
>> I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed that a
>> famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
>> found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
>> suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
>> he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
>> cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
>> would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.
>>
>> IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
>> fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.
>>
>> Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
>> amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
>> looking for the site.
>>
>> Can anybody help me out here?
>>
>> TIA

>
> It appears to me that the story can't be true. Making someone immune
> for cancer is not something that can be done like this. Maybe you are
> referring to immunotherapy, where the immune system is used to fight
> cancer cells???


I made no claims regarding the validity of the site, only said that I
want to find it.

However, since you said this is impossible, the site (IIRC) said that
the disease stimulated an immune response in the human body and that the
antibodies produced from that point on were capable of fighting cancer.

Again, I don't know or care whether or not the site referred to true
historical events, I just want to find the site.

--
John Corliss
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  #4  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
Treat-Cancer.nl
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.


John Corliss schreef:
> Treat-Cancer.nl wrote:
> > John Corliss wrote:
> >> I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed that a
> >> famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
> >> found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
> >> suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
> >> he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
> >> cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
> >> would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.
> >>
> >> IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
> >> fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.
> >>
> >> Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
> >> amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
> >> looking for the site.
> >>
> >> Can anybody help me out here?
> >>
> >> TIA

> >
> > It appears to me that the story can't be true. Making someone immune
> > for cancer is not something that can be done like this. Maybe you are
> > referring to immunotherapy, where the immune system is used to fight
> > cancer cells???

>
> I made no claims regarding the validity of the site, only said that I
> want to find it.
>
> However, since you said this is impossible, the site (IIRC) said that
> the disease stimulated an immune response in the human body and that the
> antibodies produced from that point on were capable of fighting cancer.
>
> Again, I don't know or care whether or not the site referred to true
> historical events, I just want to find the site.
>
> --
> John Corliss


Maybe this is it:

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:k...nk&cd=25&gl=nl

William B. Coley was a young surgeon in New York in the 1890's. He
operated on his cancer patients as best he could, but they routinely
died. In those days before aseptic surgery had become foolproof,
patients still developed terrible operating-room infections. He came
across a cancer patient who had gone down with the often lethal
erysipelas. Not only had he survived the infection -- his sarcoma had
disappeared! Some rooting around showed Coley that these miracle
recoveries were not unknown in the medical folklore. Infections might
apparently provoke an immune response that could sometimes knock out
cancer. Gaining a post in 1892 at what would become the Memorial Sloan-
Kettering Cancer Center, Coley made biological vaccines against cancer
his lifework.

But to little avail. For one thing, he was a surgeon, not a scientist.
For another, his domineering colleague-rival-enemy at the hospital,
James Ewing, was a passionate champion of radiation therapy; Coley's
biological cures, Ewing said, were probably all baloney. So lethal was
cancer that Coley's occasional ''miracle'' cure helped discredit him
-- it sounded like quackery. Not least, his immunotherapy seemed to
imply that cancer, like tuberculosis, was caused by an invasive
microorganism, but that hypothesis was never substantiated.



You said it would make someone immune for cancer for the rest of their
life. But now, you are referring to an immune response. These two are
different things. Making someone immune for cancer for the rest of
their life is something I find difficult to believe.

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  #5  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
John Corliss
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.

Treat-Cancer.nl wrote:
> John Corliss schreef:
>> Treat-Cancer.nl wrote:
>>> John Corliss wrote:
>>>> I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed that a
>>>> famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
>>>> found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
>>>> suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
>>>> he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
>>>> cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
>>>> would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.
>>>>
>>>> IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
>>>> fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.
>>>>
>>>> Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
>>>> amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
>>>> looking for the site.
>>>>
>>>> Can anybody help me out here?
>>>>
>>>> TIA
>>> It appears to me that the story can't be true. Making someone immune
>>> for cancer is not something that can be done like this. Maybe you are
>>> referring to immunotherapy, where the immune system is used to fight
>>> cancer cells???

>> I made no claims regarding the validity of the site, only said that I
>> want to find it.
>>
>> However, since you said this is impossible, the site (IIRC) said that
>> the disease stimulated an immune response in the human body and that the
>> antibodies produced from that point on were capable of fighting cancer.
>>
>> Again, I don't know or care whether or not the site referred to true
>> historical events, I just want to find the site.

>
> Maybe this is it:
>
> http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:k...nk&cd=25&gl=nl


No, I'm afraid that's not the one.

> William B. Coley was a young surgeon in New York in the 1890's. He
> operated on his cancer patients as best he could, but they routinely
> died. In those days before aseptic surgery had become foolproof,
> patients still developed terrible operating-room infections. He came
> across a cancer patient who had gone down with the often lethal
> erysipelas. Not only had he survived the infection -- his sarcoma had
> disappeared! Some rooting around showed Coley that these miracle
> recoveries were not unknown in the medical folklore. Infections might
> apparently provoke an immune response that could sometimes knock out
> cancer. Gaining a post in 1892 at what would become the Memorial Sloan-
> Kettering Cancer Center, Coley made biological vaccines against cancer
> his lifework.
>
> But to little avail. For one thing, he was a surgeon, not a scientist.
> For another, his domineering colleague-rival-enemy at the hospital,
> James Ewing, was a passionate champion of radiation therapy; Coley's
> biological cures, Ewing said, were probably all baloney. So lethal was
> cancer that Coley's occasional ''miracle'' cure helped discredit him
> -- it sounded like quackery. Not least, his immunotherapy seemed to
> imply that cancer, like tuberculosis, was caused by an invasive
> microorganism, but that hypothesis was never substantiated.
>
>
>
> You said it would make someone immune for cancer for the rest of their
> life. But now, you are referring to an immune response. These two are
> different things. Making someone immune for cancer for the rest of
> their life is something I find difficult to believe.


Thanks for looking for that page, but please, I have no desire to be
drawn into a discussion or argument about what I described. As I said, I
only want to find the page and was hoping that maybe somebody in this
group had run across it. What I said about the content of the page was
only what I remember reading on it. I have no idea about the validity or
logic of any of it.

--
John Corliss
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
Matti Narkia
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.

On Sat, 26 May 2007 05:41:45 -0700, John Corliss
<jcorliss@fake.invalid> wrote:

>I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed that a
>famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
>found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
>suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
>he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
>cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
>would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.
>
>IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
>fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.
>
>Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
>amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
>looking for the site.
>
>Can anybody help me out here?
>
>TIA


Are you possibly referring to Dr. William B. Coley (1862-1936),
currently regarded as a father of cancer immunotherapy? If so, see

CancerGuide: Coley's Toxins / Issel's Fever Therapy
<http://cancerguide.org/coley.html>

Coley's Toxins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coley_Vaccine_therapy>

William Coley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Coley>

William B. Coley Award - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_B._Coley_Award>

William B. Coley Award for Distinguished Research in Basic and Tumor
Immunology
<http://www.cancerresearch.org/coleyawards.html>

McCarthy EF.
The toxins of William B. Coley and the treatment of bone and
soft-tissue sarcomas.
Iowa Orthop J. 2006;26:154-8.
PMID: 16789469 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&list_uids=16789469>

"In 1891, William B. Coley injected streptococcal organisms
into a patient with inoperable cancer. He thought that the
infection he produced would have the side effect of shrinking
the malignant tumor. He was successful, and this was one of
the first examples of immunotherapy. Over the next forty
years, as head of the Bone Tumor Service at Memorial Hospital
in New York, Coley injected more than 1000 cancer patients
with bacteria or bacterial products. These products became
known as Coley's Toxins. He and other doctors who used them
reported excellent results, especially in bone and soft-
tissue sarcomas. Despite his reported good results, Coley's
Toxins came under a great deal of criticism because many
doctors did not believe his results. This criticism, along
with the development of radiation therapy and chemotherapy,
caused Coley's Toxins to gradually disappear from use.
However, the modern science of immunology has shown that
Coley's principles were correct and that some cancers are
sensitive to an enhanced immune system. Because research is
very active in this field, William B. Coley, a bone sarcoma
surgeon, deserves the title "Father of Immunotherapy"."

Tsung K, Norton JA.
Lessons from Coley's Toxin.
Surg Oncol. 2006 Jul;15(1):25-8. Epub 2006 Jun 30. Review.
PMID: 16814541 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=16814541>

McCarthy EF.
The toxins of William B. Coley and the treatment of bone and
soft-tissue sarcomas.
Iowa Orthop J. 2006;26:154-8.
PMID: 16789469 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=16789469>

Hobohm U.
Fever and cancer in perspective.
Cancer Immunol Immunother. 2001 Oct;50(8):391-6. Review.
PMID: 11726133 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=11726133>

Wiemann B, Starnes CO.
Coley's toxins, tumor necrosis factor and cancer research: a
historical perspective.
Pharmacol Ther. 1994;64(3):529-64. Review.
PMID: 7724661 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=7724661>

Mizuno D, Soma G.
Oral or percutaneous administration of lipopolysaccharide of small
molecular size may cure various intractable diseases: a new version of
Coley's toxin.
Mol Biother. 1992 Dec;4(4):166-9. Review.
PMID: 1476670 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=1476670>

Starnes CO.
Coley's toxins in perspective.
Nature. 1992 May 7;357(6373):11-2.
PMID: 1574121 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=1574121>

Gkialas I, Kalantzis A, Lykourinas M.
The response of urological tumours to immunotherapy.
J BUON. 2005 Jul-Sep;10(3):329-36.
PMID: 17357186 [PubMed - in process]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=17357186>


--
Matti Narkia
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  #7  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
J
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.

Matti Narkia wrote:

> On Sat, 26 May 2007 05:41:45 -0700, John Corliss
> <jcorliss@fake.invalid> wrote:
>
> >I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed that a
> >famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
> >found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
> >suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
> >he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
> >cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
> >would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.
> >
> >IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
> >fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.
> >
> >Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
> >amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
> >looking for the site.
> >
> >Can anybody help me out here?
> >
> >TIA

>
> Are you possibly referring to Dr. William B. Coley (1862-1936),
> currently regarded as a father of cancer immunotherapy? If so, see
> Hobohm U.
> Fever and cancer in perspective.
> Cancer Immunol Immunother. 2001 Oct;50(8):391-6. Review.
> PMID: 11726133 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=11726133>
> Despite initial hopes, the efficacy of tumour necrosis factor in treating cancer patients has been
> disappointing. But a more careful selection of patients, and more appropriate treatment, might be fruitful.


many common chemotherapeutic agents are bacterial toxins ---Doxorubicin, Bleomycin and Mitomycin C are the
toxins of various strains of streptococci
Difference being they're produced in tightly controlled conditions and used by oncologists, who know their
applications.
J


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  #8  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
Treat-Cancer.nl
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.

> Thanks for looking for that page, but please, I have no desire to be
> drawn into a discussion or argument about what I described. As I said, I
> only want to find the page and was hoping that maybe somebody in this
> group had run across it. What I said about the content of the page was
> only what I remember reading on it. I have no idea about the validity or
> logic of any of it.


Understood. But by starting a conversation here on this board it is
just too difficult not to react on anything that seems interesting
(but is not strictly relevant to you). You may not have liked my
initial response, but we aren't robots unfortunately. For example, if
you posted that "paris hilton goes to prison for 45 day" and you go on
asking: "in what prison will they take paris to" then many people
probably will not respond to your question but answer with something
like "how can this be??" or "this is justice" or "beeeeewww..." or
"naaah". Only few people will answer "grounsworth prison" for example.

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  #9  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
John Corliss
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.

Matti Narkia wrote:
> John Corliss wrote:
>
>> I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed that a
>> famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
>> found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
>> suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
>> he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
>> cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
>> would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.
>>
>> IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
>> fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.
>>
>> Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
>> amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
>> looking for the site.
>>
>> Can anybody help me out here?
>>
>> TIA

>
> Are you possibly referring to Dr. William B. Coley (1862-1936),
> currently regarded as a father of cancer immunotherapy? If so, see
>
> CancerGuide: Coley's Toxins / Issel's Fever Therapy
> <http://cancerguide.org/coley.html>


Your website had the information I needed to find the page. It's here:

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/...lts/coley.html

Many, many thanks!

--
John Corliss
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  #10  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
John Corliss
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.

J wrote:
> Matti Narkia wrote:
>> John Corliss wrote:
>>
>>> I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed that a
>>> famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
>>> found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
>>> suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
>>> he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
>>> cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
>>> would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.
>>>
>>> IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
>>> fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.
>>>
>>> Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
>>> amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
>>> looking for the site.
>>>
>>> Can anybody help me out here?
>>>
>>> TIA
>>>

>> Are you possibly referring to Dr. William B. Coley (1862-1936),
>> currently regarded as a father of cancer immunotherapy? If so, see
>> Hobohm U.
>> Fever and cancer in perspective.
>> Cancer Immunol Immunother. 2001 Oct;50(8):391-6. Review.
>> PMID: 11726133 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=11726133>
>> Despite initial hopes, the efficacy of tumour necrosis factor in treating cancer patients has been
>> disappointing. But a more careful selection of patients, and more appropriate treatment, might be fruitful.

>
> many common chemotherapeutic agents are bacterial toxins ---Doxorubicin, Bleomycin and Mitomycin C are the
> toxins of various strains of streptococci
> Difference being they're produced in tightly controlled conditions and used by oncologists, who know their
> applications.


And thus, their relative lack of effectiveness. IMO, the cancer
foundation is nothing but a money making scam, and both the
pharmaceutical and medical industries (notice that I refer to the latter
as an *industry* rather than a *profession*, which it no longer is) have
vested interests in NOT finding a cure for cancer. It's a true "dangle
the carrot in front of the donkey" act.

My apologies if I've angered anybody in this group who is suffering from
cancer but *my* anger regarding this issue, is of the blackest kind.
Thus, I don't and won't continue to discuss this topic. Anybody is
welcome to respond to my charges but I will not be able to read those
replies. This is because I will be unsubscribing from this group after
posting this invective.

Goodbye and my most sincere wishes for good luck to all cancer sufferers
who are reading this group. If God still listened to my prayers, I would
engage in that activity on your behalf.

Again, my most heartfelt thanks to Matti Narkia for helping me find that
website about Dr. William B. Coley's "Coley's Toxins".

--
John Corliss
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  #11  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
Treat-Cancer.nl
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.

Wow, thank you for educating us about Dr. William B. Coley!!!

On 27 mei, 13:43, John Corliss <jcorl...@fake.invalid> wrote:
> J wrote:
> > Matti Narkia wrote:
> >> John Corliss wrote:

>
> >>> I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed that a
> >>> famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
> >>> found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
> >>> suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
> >>> he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
> >>> cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
> >>> would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.

>
> >>> IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
> >>> fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.

>
> >>> Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
> >>> amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
> >>> looking for the site.

>
> >>> Can anybody help me out here?

>
> >>> TIA

>
> >> Are you possibly referring to Dr. William B. Coley (1862-1936),
> >> currently regarded as a father of cancer immunotherapy? If so, see
> >> Hobohm U.
> >> Fever and cancer in perspective.
> >> Cancer Immunol Immunother. 2001 Oct;50(8):391-6. Review.
> >> PMID: 11726133 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> >> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&...>
> >> Despite initial hopes, the efficacy of tumour necrosis factor in treating cancer patients has been
> >> disappointing. But a more careful selection of patients, and more appropriate treatment, might be fruitful.

>
> > many common chemotherapeutic agents are bacterial toxins ---Doxorubicin, Bleomycin and Mitomycin C are the
> > toxins of various strains of streptococci
> > Difference being they're produced in tightly controlled conditions and used by oncologists, who know their
> > applications.

>
> And thus, their relative lack of effectiveness. IMO, the cancer
> foundation is nothing but a money making scam, and both the
> pharmaceutical and medical industries (notice that I refer to the latter
> as an *industry* rather than a *profession*, which it no longer is) have
> vested interests in NOT finding a cure for cancer. It's a true "dangle
> the carrot in front of the donkey" act.
>
> My apologies if I've angered anybody in this group who is suffering from
> cancer but *my* anger regarding this issue, is of the blackest kind.
> Thus, I don't and won't continue to discuss this topic. Anybody is
> welcome to respond to my charges but I will not be able to read those
> replies. This is because I will be unsubscribing from this group after
> posting this invective.
>
> Goodbye and my most sincere wishes for good luck to all cancer sufferers
> who are reading this group. If God still listened to my prayers, I would
> engage in that activity on your behalf.
>
> Again, my most heartfelt thanks to Matti Narkia for helping me find that
> website about Dr. William B. Coley's "Coley's Toxins".
>
> --
> John Corliss- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -



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  #12  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
Uncle Sally
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.

John Corliss exited stage left pausing to soliloquize :

.... snip ...

"but *my* anger regarding this issue, is of the blackest kind. Thus, I don't
and won't continue to discuss this topic. Anybody is welcome to respond to
my charges but I will not be able to read those replies. This is because I
will be unsubscribing from this group after posting this invective."

Gds'wnds My Prince thou surely art possessed by a miasmic vapor whose color
is blacker than any mortal black ! But how kind of you to notify us "mere
mortals" of your impending absence so we can more exquisitely experience the
pain of knowing you will not be reading our final posts

"If God still listened to my prayers, I would engage in that activity on
your behalf."

So, as "God" will not now listen to your prayers, "You" will now not listen
to us ? Seems like a fair trade.

In melancholia veritas, Uncle Sally





Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
Matti Narkia
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Coley's toxins - an important part of cancer treatment history (Re: Please help me find a website.)

On Sat, 26 May 2007 21:52:21 -0400, J <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote:

>Matti Narkia wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 26 May 2007 05:41:45 -0700, John Corliss
>> <jcorliss@fake.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed that a
>> >famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
>> >found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
>> >suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
>> >he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
>> >cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
>> >would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.
>> >
>> >IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
>> >fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.
>> >
>> >Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
>> >amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
>> >looking for the site.
>> >
>> >Can anybody help me out here?
>> >
>> >TIA

>>
>> Are you possibly referring to Dr. William B. Coley (1862-1936),
>> currently regarded as a father of cancer immunotherapy? If so, see
>> Hobohm U.
>> Fever and cancer in perspective.
>> Cancer Immunol Immunother. 2001 Oct;50(8):391-6. Review.
>> PMID: 11726133 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=11726133>
>> Despite initial hopes, the efficacy of tumour necrosis factor in treating cancer patients has been
>> disappointing. But a more careful selection of patients, and more appropriate treatment, might be fruitful.

>

J, the main active substance in Coley's toxins is Lipopolysaccharide
(LPS), not tumor necrosis factor (TNF), although LPS stimulates also
TNF production, but for those tumors against which it works, Coley's
toxins and LPS are much more effective than TNF. Murray J. Shear, a
biochemist at National Cancer Institute (of USA) found this out in
1943. Stephen S. Hall writes about this in his book "A Commotion in
the Blood", which I have in my bookshelf. The article

GlycoScience: State of the Science Review
By Bill H McAnalley, PhD and Eileen Vennum, RAC
<http://www.glycoscience.org/glycoscience/document_viewer.wm?FILENAME=D007>

also reports about William B. Coley, Murray J. Shear and
lipopolysaccharide (LPS):

"Cancer has long been linked with glycoconjugates. Beginning
in the 1700's, doctors noticed that some cancer patients
experienced remissions after contracting bacterial
infections. A hundred years later, Dr. William B. Coley
initiated a large-scale effort to use this phenomenon to
benefit his patients. In fact, he was successful in treating
some of his patients (particularly those with soft-tissue
sarcomas) by infecting them with live bacteria. Because of
the dangers inherent with such a procedure, Dr. Coley then
developed vaccines of killed bacteria. These vaccines, which
had essentially the same effect without causing an actual
infection, became known as "Coley's toxins".19 In 1943, Dr.
Murray J. Shear identified and purified the specific
component of the bacteria associated with the cancer
remission. This component was a lipopolysaccharide (LPS).
LPS, found in the cell walls of certain types of bacteria, is
composed primarily of fat (lipo) and sugar (polysaccharide).
In 1973, Dr. Lloyd Old and his colleagues learned that the
effect of LPS on the tumors was not a direct one. Instead,
LPS stimulated the production of a substance in the body,
which caused tumors to necrose, turn black, and dry up. Dr.
Old termed this substance tumor necrosis factor (TNF).20

With the advent of radiation and chemotherapy, treatments
that are intended to treat a wide-variety of cancers, the use
of Coley's toxin (best suited to patients with sarcomas)
diminished. This is unfortunate, because radiation and
chemotherapy typically don't achieve long-term control of
such cancers and, once patients have received such
conventional treatments, they are then less able to respond
to Coley's toxin treatment.19 Nevertheless, for the purposes
of this review, it is noteworthy that the molecules
triggering the remission response that Coley observed were
lipid/carbohydrate combinations found on the cell walls of
certain bacteria.

In vitro studies showed that the addition of either fucose,
mannose, glucose or galactose to culture medium inhibited the
growth of malignant mammary cells in a dose-dependent
manner.21 Fucose and mannose provided the most significant
inhibition. Rats with chemically induced transplantable
mammary tumors showed significantly suppressed tumor growth
following fucose injections. No toxic effects were found to
be associated with fucose treatments.22 ,23 ,24

Successful clinical trials have also been conducted in cancer
patients using infusions of D-galactose, a simple sugar.
Eighty patients with stomach adenocarcinoma25 and 76 with
colon adenocarcinoma26 were enrolled into controlled,
randomized clinical studies. Both studies demonstrated a
significant reduction in hepatic metastases and improved
overall survival of patients treated with D-galactose."

LPS is also mentioned in my 1996 write-up

Coley's Toxins a.k.a. Mixed Bacterial Vaccine (MBV)
<http://cancerguide.org/coley.html>

which I originally wrote in 19996 in CANCER-L mailing list as a part
of a discussion about fever and cancer and related therapies. Steve
Dunn happened to like it and asked my permission for including it in
his CancerGuide he was working on. Coley's toxins are what we now call
nonspecific immunotherapy. IL-2, which cured Steve's "incurable"
widely metastasized stage IV kidney cancer also belongs to the
nonspecific immunotherapies.

BTW, Coley's daughter, Helen Coley Nauts
(<http://www.cancerresearch.org/nautsob.html>), who has tabulated and
organized his father's work after his death, once called me to thank
me for my write-up about his father's discovery. Helen Nauts died on
the January 2, 2001. She was 93.

Wikipedias's article

Coley's Toxins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coley_Vaccine_therapy>

also mentions my little write-up among its references:

"References

* Hoption Cann S, van Netten J, van Netten C (2003). "Dr
William Coley and tumour regression: a place in history
or in the future". Postgrad Med J 79 (938): 672-80.
PMID 14707241. link
* Zacharski L, Sukhatme V (2005). "Coley's toxin
revisited: immunotherapy or plasminogen activator
therapy of cancer?". J Thromb Haemost 3 (3): 424-7.
PMID 15748226.
* Wayne Martin. Coley's Toxin at second-opinions.co.uk
* Wayne Martin. How to Make and Use Coley's Toxins at
second-opinions.co.uk
* Matti Narkia. Coley's Toxins also known as Mixed
Bacterial Vaccine (MBV) at cancerguide.org
* Thuo hypothesis at second-opinions.co.uk
* Coley Toxins Detailed Scientific Review at mdanderson.org

Further reading

* Hall, Steven S. (1997) A Commotion in the Blood. New
York, New York: Henry Holt and Company. ISBN
0-8050-5841-9

External links

* MBVax Bioscience Inc produces Coley's toxins
* Coley's fluid clinical trial

See also

* Coley Fluid"

The link for the above mentioned "Coley Toxins Detailed Scientific
Review at mdanderson.org" is

Biologic/Organic/Pharmacologic Therapies:
Coley Toxins Detailed Scientific Review
Overview
<http://www.mdanderson.org/departments/cimer/display.cfm?id=35F66009-F06A-11D4-810200508B603A14&method=displayFull&pn=6EB86A59-EBD9-11D4-810100508B603A14>
(<http://tinyurl.com/3a6gfg>)

It describes the current situation with Coley's toxins as follows:

"Current Situation

Charles Starnes at AMGEN in California15 and Dr. Lloyd J.
Old, retired from Sloan-Kettering Institute18, have used the
toxins experimentally within the laboratory4. The Coley
Pharmaceutical Group, a private biotechnology company, is
conducting research with specific genetic sequences that may
have contributed to the therapeutic effects of Coley
toxins19.

The Waisbren Clinic in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, treats patients
with cancer with a mixed bacterial vaccine consisting of
modified Coley toxins plus 10 strains of the heat killed
streptococcus bacteria which causes burn infections, plus
BCG, transfer factor donated by relatives of patients, and a
strain of lymphoblastoid lymphocytes combined with Epstein-
Barr virus 20. An uncontrolled clinical series study by that
center is reviewed within the Summary of Research and
Annotated Bibliographic sections of this therapy review.
Further information concerning the treatment at that clinic
is available at that web site21.

The toxins are reportedly being used outside the U. S. in
Mexico22, Guatemala23, Germany24 and the People’s Republic of
China (Beijing Children’s Hospital and Shanghai5).

According to the American Cancer Society’s Guide to
Complementary Alternative Cancer Methods, "Scientific
evidence suggests Coley toxins or the mixed bacterial vaccine
(MBV) may have a therapeutic role in the treatment of cancer
in a combined treatment approach." However, they also comment
that much has been learned about the science of immunology
and practice of immunotherapy since Coley’s time and that
modern immunotherapy is likely to be of greater value25.

Coley toxins therapy has also been reviewed by Wiemann and
Starnes in the Department of Pharmacology of Amgen, Inc.15

More information on the science and research in Coley toxin
therapy is provided in the Summary of Research."

Links for the other parts of the M.D.Anderson article:

Summary of Research
<http://www.mdanderson.org/departments/cimer/display.cfm?id=8640749B-13EE-11D5-811000508B603A14&method=displayFull&pn=6EB86A59-EBD9-11D4-810100508B603A14>
(<http://tinyurl.com/2tjtzy>)

Annotated Bibliography
<http://www.mdanderson.org/department...0100508B603A14

Reference List
<http://www.mdanderson.org/departments/cimer/display.cfm?id=864074F5-13EE-11D5-811000508B603A14&method=displayFull&pn=6EB86A59-EBD9-11D4-810100508B603A14>


My write-up would need some updating. I haven't followed the topic for
many years, so I don't know whether for example any of the contact
information provided is still valid. And in 1996 I wasn't aware that
the first doctor to try the "Coley's" bacteria (Streptococcus
pyrogenes) on a cancer patient was a German physician W. Busch in
1868, and that in 1883 Friedrich Fehleisen, a German surgeon, had
successfully identified S. pyrogenes as the cause of erysipelas, and
begun treating cancer patients with the living cultures of the
bacteria. IMHO the honor about the discovery about these bacterial
toxins should be shared between Coley, Busch and Fehleisen. If I ever
get to update my write-up, I probably mention these two German
physicians as well. More about them and Coley in the text of the
following U.S. patent:

Agents and methods for treatment of disease by oligosaccharide
targeting agents
United States Patent 20050026866
<http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20050026866.html>

"[0009] Perhaps the first cancer patient to be purposefully
infected with bacteria was treated by German physician W.
Busch (1). Busch, in 1868, induced a bacterial infection in a
woman with inoperable sarcoma by cauterizing the tumor and
placing her into bedding previously occupied by a patient
with `erysipelas` (Streptococcus pyrogenes). Busch reported
that within a week the primary tumor had shrunk by half and
that lymph nodes in the neck had also shrunk in size,
however, the patient collapsed and died nine days after the
infection had begun (1). Almost 30 years later, William B.
Coley, a young surgeon at New York Hospital, encountered a
cancer patient who seemed to be cured by a severe infection
with erysipelas (2-3). Coley wrote, "I had found one case of
very malignant round-celled sarcoma of the neck, four times
recurrent, in which an attack of erysipelas had accidentally
occurred shortly after the last operation by Dr. Bull. At
this time the tumor so extensively involved the deeper
tissues of the neck that no attempt was made to remove it. A
few days after the first attack of erysipelas had subsided, a
second attack followed, lasting for a week. During these
attacks of erysipelas, the tumor of the neck entirely
disappeared and the patient left the hospital in good health.
After great effort I finally succeeded in tracking the after-
history of this patient and found him alive and well in 1891,
seven years later." This observation led Coley to begin
deliberate infection of cancer patients with live S.
pyrogenes. Unbeknownst to Coley, similar studies had already
been launched in Europe, where, in 1883, Friedrich Fehleisen,
a German surgeon, had not only successfully identified S.
pyrogenes as the cause of erysipelas, but had at once begun
treating cancer patients with the living cultures of the
bacteria (4).

[0010] Both Coley and Fehleisen reported success in eliciting
tumor regression, and Coley was so convinced by his results
that he devoted much of his life's work to exploring the use
of bacteria in cancer treatment. Coley soon abandoned the use
of live bacteria in favor of isolated preparations of
bacterial toxins. A record of his work was carefully
assembled by his daughter, Helen Coley Nauts, which also
summarized case reports over 200 years wherein neoplasms
regressed following acute infection (5-6). It seemed that
when neither the cancer nor the infection was too far-
advanced, yet the infection was of sufficient severity or
duration, some tumors completely disappeared and the patients
remained free from recurrence. However, these studies were
controversial, because they were anecdotal and difficult to
repeat, and would not live up to current standards for such
clinical trials. Nonetheless, subsequent evidence in mouse
tumor models indicated that at least some of the anti-cancer
effects of bacterial infections might have indeed reduced
tumor size, and, in part, the effects seemed to have been
mediated through stimulation of the host immune system.
Carswell et al. (7) first reported that endotoxin
(lipopolysaccharide, LPS) from gram-negative bacteria
triggers release of tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF.alpha.),
by cells of the immune system, initiating a cascade of
cytokine-mediated reactions, culminating in the destruction
of tumor cells (8). Subseqently, bacterial adjuvants were
shown to be immuno-enhancing in cancer patients (e.g. 9-11).
Today, these and numerous related studies have culminated in
the large and diverse field of cancer immunotherapy, of which
William Coley is generally recognized as the founder (1). In
addition, the use of bacterial toxins in cancer therapy
remains a topic of considerable current interest (12)."

At least one of the Coley's original publications, published in 1893,
was republished in 1991 and its reference information is in Medline:

Coley WB.
The treatment of malignant tumors by repeated inoculations of
erysipelas. With a report of ten original cases. 1893.
Clin Orthop Relat Res. 1991 Jan;(262):3-11. No abstract available.
PMID: 1984929 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=1984929>

Unfortunately eeven the abstract is not available online.

>many common chemotherapeutic agents are bacterial toxins ---Doxorubicin, Bleomycin and Mitomycin C are the
>toxins of various strains of streptococci
>Difference being they're produced in tightly controlled conditions and used by oncologists, who know their
>applications.
>J


J, you are comparing apples and oranges. The drugs you mention are
cytotoxic chemotherapeutic agents. Coley's toxins are not directly
cytotoxic and their effect is not based on cytotoxicity, but instead
on the extremely powerful nonspecific stimulation of immune system,
i.e. with similar mechanism that IL-2 and interferon cause their
effect. Coley's toxins raise very high fever for one day. I was
treated with Coley's toxins about 7-8 times around 1992-93, and every
time my temperature went over 40 degrees Celsius (over 104 degrees
Fahrenheit).

Some reading about cancer immunotherapies, Coley is also mentioned, in
the chapter "3.0 THE ORIGINS OF IMMUNOTHERAPY":

Cancer and Immune System: The Vital Connection
Oki K. Dzivenu, D.Phil., and Jill O’Donnell-Tormey, Ph.D.
Copyright © Cancer Research Institute 2003
<http://www.cancerresearch.org/immunology/immuneindex.html>


Coley's toxins are an important part of the history of cancer
treatments. They could possibly in some form belong also to the
arsenal of modern cancer treatments for certain spefic cancers and
purposes, if they weren't so old invention. I don't know if Coley or
anyone else ever patented them, and even if they did, the patent would
have expired ages ago. And I think that it's no longer possible to
patent an invention, which has been know so long and been in general
use, although someone seems to have patented something similar as show
in the link I provided earlier in this message. And if there is no
patent, there will be no investment money coming for research needed
for the acceptance.

Coley's toxins are not an easy cure though. High fever with nausea and
vomiting are very hard for the patient, especially when for the best
results the treatments would probably have to be repeated 2-3 times a
weeks for a few months. Although Coley's toxins are less harmful for
the body than say chemoradiation, and is not likely to cause permanent
damage, when appropriately administered by a physician, in my
experience chemoradiation is much easier to tolerate. Coley's toxins
are a pure torture on the treatment day, but the next day you feel
fine and healthy - until the next treatment day comes ;-).





--
Matti Narkia
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
Matti Narkia
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.

On Sun, 27 May 2007 04:43:10 -0700, John Corliss
<jcorliss@fake.invalid> wrote:

>J wrote:
>> Matti Narkia wrote:
>>> John Corliss wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed that a
>>>> famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
>>>> found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
>>>> suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
>>>> he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
>>>> cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
>>>> would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.
>>>>
>>>> IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
>>>> fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.
>>>>
>>>> Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
>>>> amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
>>>> looking for the site.
>>>>
>>>> Can anybody help me out here?
>>>>
>>>> TIA
>>>>
>>> Are you possibly referring to Dr. William B. Coley (1862-1936),
>>> currently regarded as a father of cancer immunotherapy? If so, see
>>> Hobohm U.
>>> Fever and cancer in perspective.
>>> Cancer Immunol Immunother. 2001 Oct;50(8):391-6. Review.
>>> PMID: 11726133 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>>> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlu s&list_uids=11726133>
>>> Despite initial hopes, the efficacy of tumour necrosis factor in treating cancer patients has been
>>> disappointing. But a more careful selection of patients, and more appropriate treatment, might be fruitful.

>>
>> many common chemotherapeutic agents are bacterial toxins ---Doxorubicin, Bleomycin and Mitomycin C are the
>> toxins of various strains of streptococci
>> Difference being they're produced in tightly controlled conditions and used by oncologists, who know their
>> applications.

>
>And thus, their relative lack of effectiveness. IMO, the cancer
>foundation is nothing but a money making scam, and both the
>pharmaceutical and medical industries (notice that I refer to the latter
>as an *industry* rather than a *profession*, which it no longer is) have
>vested interests in NOT finding a cure for cancer. It's a true "dangle
>the carrot in front of the donkey" act.
>
>My apologies if I've angered anybody in this group who is suffering from
>cancer but *my* anger regarding this issue, is of the blackest kind.
>Thus, I don't and won't continue to discuss this topic. Anybody is
>welcome to respond to my charges but I will not be able to read those
>replies. This is because I will be unsubscribing from this group after
>posting this invective.
>

John, you have to develop a thicker skin, if you are going to
participate in discussions like this. Besides, the reply by J is only
her opinion. Opinions are line a**holes, everyone's got one. This kind
of clashes are sometimes to be expected, but could be avoided, if all
participants showed some tolerance towards the views of other
participants.

I think that your anger is not justified, you have to be prepared to
expect all kind of replies.

I wish you would stay at least long enough to tell us, why are you
interested in Coley's toxins, because I'm genuinely interested about
this topic.

>Goodbye and my most sincere wishes for good luck to all cancer sufferers
>who are reading this group. If God still listened to my prayers, I would
>engage in that activity on your behalf.
>
>Again, my most heartfelt thanks to Matti Narkia for helping me find that
>website about Dr. William B. Coley's "Coley's Toxins".


You're welcome. I suggest you read also at least all the pages of the
article

Biologic/Organic/Pharmacologic Therapies:
Coley Toxins Detailed Scientific Review
<http://www.mdanderson.org/departments/cimer/display.cfm?id=35F66009-F06A-11D4-810200508B603A14&method=displayFull&pn=6EB86A59-EBD9-11D4-810100508B603A14>
(<http://tinyurl.com/3a6gfg>)


The article

Cancer and Immune System: The Vital Connection
Oki K. Dzivenu, D.Phil., and Jill O’Donnell-Tormey, Ph.D.
Copyright © Cancer Research Institute 2003
<http://www.cancerresearch.org/immunology/immuneindex.html>

might also interest you.



--
Matti Narkia
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-27-2007, 07:36 PM
Matti Narkia
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Please help me find a website.

On 27 May 2007 06:45:22 -0700, "Treat-Cancer.nl"
<steven@Treat-Cancer.nl> wrote:

>Wow, thank you for educating us about Dr. William B. Coley!!!
>

Coley was a great man and should be respected - and modern cancer
researchers do.


--
Matti Narkia
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-28-2007, 02:31 AM
J
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Coley's toxins - an important part of cancer treatment history (Re:Please help me find a website.)

Matti Narkia wrote:
Plonk !

Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-28-2007, 02:31 AM
Matti Narkia
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Coley's toxins - an important part of cancer treatment history (Re: Please help me find a website.)

On Sun, 27 May 2007 14:36:03 -0400, J <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote:

>Matti Narkia wrote:
>Plonk !


It seems that J has once again run out of arguments and resorted to
her disrespectful, intolerant behavior for reasons I will probably
never understand :-(. As a cancer patient, who gets a lot from this
and tries to give something back now and then, I cannot feel good
about this situation, I wish there would be a solution for it.






--
Matti Narkia
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-29-2007, 08:38 AM
OldBill
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Coley's toxins - an important part of cancer treatment history (Re: Please help me find a website.)


"Matti Narkia" <mna@mbnet.fi> wrote in message
news:sgpj53l6j8p96hkdf9nnshjivm18j5k8hd@4ax.com...
| On Sun, 27 May 2007 14:36:03 -0400, J <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote:
|
| >Matti Narkia wrote:
| >Plonk !
|
| It seems that J has once again run out of arguments and resorted to
| her disrespectful, intolerant behavior ...

Quite so, Matti, quite so

... ... for reasons I will probably
| never understand ...

Really, Matti, you sure about that? After all these years, and all you've
read?

... ... As a cancer patient, who gets a lot from this
| and tries to give something back now and then, I cannot feel good
| about this situation ... ...

There is no need to fret, none at all. You're are not the first and you
won't be the last.
Your expositions are relevant, masterly, and open-minded, and delivered with
sympathy and sensitivity,A true asset to this NG, but sadly casting pearls
before swine.
and I don't mean everyone ,there will be many like me who are grateful for
your messages.


.... ... I wish there would be a solution for it.
| --
| Matti Narkia

There is, there is. Ignore it. Simply replonk!
and carry on the good work.


I don't know how much written response there will be to what I say but
I'm damned sure I'm not alone.

Old Bill


Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-18-2007, 08:31 PM
Citizen Jimserac
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Coley's toxins - an important part of cancer treatment history (Re: Please help me find a website.)

On May 27, 1:21 pm, Matti Narkia <m...@mbnet.fi> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 May 2007 21:52:21 -0400, J <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote:
> >Matti Narkia wrote:

>
> >> On Sat, 26 May 2007 05:41:45 -0700, John Corliss
> >> <jcorl...@fake.invalid> wrote:

>
> >> >I was surfing a few years back and found a website which claimed thata
> >> >famous researcher, back in the late 19th century or early 20th, had
> >> >found out that if he intentionally gave a certain disease to a person
> >> >suffering from cancer and then was able to cure that disease (apparently
> >> >he wasn't always successful in this endeavor), the patient would be both
> >> >cured from the cancer they had AND from what the researcher could see,
> >> >would be immune to cancer for the rest of their life.

>
> >> >IIRC, the disease was something truly horrible like necrotizing
> >> >fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria infection) or the like.

>
> >> >Shortly after reading this and when I tried to go back to the site, no
> >> >amount of Googling would find it. And I have literally spent hours
> >> >looking for the site.

>
> >> >Can anybody help me out here?

>
> >> >TIA

>
> >> Are you possibly referring to Dr. William B.Coley(1862-1936),
> >> currently regarded as a father of cancer immunotherapy? If so, see
> >> Hobohm U.
> >> Fever and cancer in perspective.
> >> Cancer Immunol Immunother. 2001 Oct;50(8):391-6. Review.
> >> PMID: 11726133 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> >> <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&...>
> >> Despite initial hopes, the efficacy of tumour necrosis factor in treating cancer patients has been
> >> disappointing. But a more careful selection of patients, and more appropriate treatment, might be fruitful.

>
> J, the main active substance inColey'stoxinsis Lipopolysaccharide
> (LPS), not tumor necrosis factor (TNF), although LPS stimulates also
> TNF production, but for those tumors against which it works,Coley'stoxinsand LPS are much more effective than TNF. Murray J. Shear, a
> biochemist at National Cancer Institute (of USA) found this out in
> 1943. Stephen S. Hall writes about this in his book "A Commotion in
> the Blood", which I have in my bookshelf. The article
>
> GlycoScience: State of the Science Review
> By Bill H McAnalley, PhD and Eileen Vennum, RAC
> <http://www.glycoscience.org/glycoscience/document_viewer.wm?FILENAME=....>
>
> also reports about William B.Coley, Murray J. Shear and
> lipopolysaccharide (LPS):
>
> "Cancer has long been linked with glycoconjugates. Beginning
> in the 1700's, doctors noticed that some cancer patients
> experienced remissions after contracting bacterial
> infections. A hundred years later, Dr. William B.Coley
> initiated a large-scale effort to use this phenomenon to
> benefit his patients. In fact, he was successful in treating
> some of his patients (particularly those with soft-tissue
> sarcomas) by infecting them with live bacteria. Because of
> the dangers inherent with such a procedure, Dr.Coleythen
> developed vaccines of killed bacteria. These vaccines, which
> had essentially the same effect without causing an actual
> infection, became known as "Coley'stoxins".19 In 1943, Dr.
> Murray J. Shear identified and purified the specific
> component of the bacteria associated with the cancer
> remission. This component was a lipopolysaccharide (LPS).
> LPS, found in the cell walls of certain types of bacteria, is
> composed primarily of fat (lipo) and sugar (polysaccharide).
> In 1973, Dr. Lloyd Old and his colleagues learned that the
> effect of LPS on the tumors was not a direct one. Instead,
> LPS stimulated the production of a substance in the body,
> which caused tumors to necrose, turn black, and dry up. Dr.
> Old termed this substance tumor necrosis factor (TNF).20
>
> With the advent of radiation and chemotherapy, treatments
> that are intended to treat a wide-variety of cancers, the use
> ofColey'stoxin (best suited to patients with sarcomas)
> diminished. This is unfortunate, because radiation and
> chemotherapy typically don't achieve long-term control of
> such cancers and, once patients have received such
> conventional treatments, they are then less able to respond
> toColey'stoxin treatment.19 Nevertheless, for the purposes
> of this review, it is noteworthy that the molecules
> triggering the remission response thatColeyobserved were
> lipid/carbohydrate combinations found on the cell walls of
> certain bacteria.
>
> In vitro studies showed that the addition of either fucose,
> mannose, glucose or galactose to culture medium inhibited the
> growth of malignant mammary cells in a dose-dependent
> manner.21 Fucose and mannose provided the most significant
> inhibition. Rats with chemically induced transplantable
> mammary tumors showed significantly suppressed tumor growth
> following fucose injections. No toxic effects were found to
> be associated with fucose treatments.22 ,23 ,24
>
> Successful clinical trials have also been conducted in cancer
> patients using infusions of D-galactose, a simple sugar.
> Eighty patients with stomach adenocarcinoma25 and 76 with
> colon adenocarcinoma26 were enrolled into controlled,
> randomized clinical studies. Both studies demonstrated a
> significant reduction in hepatic metastases and improved
> overall survival of patients treated with D-galactose."
>
> LPS is also mentioned in my 1996 write-up
>
> Coley'sToxinsa.k.a. Mixed Bacterial Vaccine (MBV)
> <http://cancerguide.org/coley.html>
>
> which I originally wrote in 19996 in CANCER-L mailing list as a part
> of a discussion about fever and cancer and related therapies. Steve
> Dunn happened to like it and asked my permission for including it in
> his CancerGuide he was working on.Coley'stoxinsare what we now call
> nonspecific immunotherapy. IL-2, which cured Steve's "incurable"
> widely metastasized stage IV kidney cancer also belongs to the
> nonspecific immunotherapies.
>
> BTW,Coley'sdaughter, HelenColeyNauts
> (<http://www.cancerresearch.org/nautsob.html>), who has tabulated and
> organized his father's work after his death, once called me to thank
> me for my write-up about his father's discovery. Helen Nauts died on
> the January 2, 2001. She was 93.
>
> Wikipedias's article
>
> Coley'sToxins- Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coley_Vaccine_therapy>
>
> also mentions my little write-up among its references:
>
> "References
>
> * Hoption Cann S, van Netten J, van Netten C (2003). "Dr
> WilliamColeyand tumour regression: a place in history
> or in the future". Postgrad Med J 79 (938): 672-80.
> PMID 14707241. link
> * Zacharski L, Sukhatme V (2005). "Coley'stoxin
> revisited: immunotherapy or plasminogen activator
> therapy of cancer?". J Thromb Haemost 3 (3): 424-7.
> PMID 15748226.
> * Wayne Martin.Coley'sToxin at second-opinions.co.uk
> * Wayne Martin. How to Make and UseColey'sToxinsat
> second-opinions.co.uk
> * Matti Narkia.Coley'sToxinsalso known as Mixed
> Bacterial Vaccine (MBV) at cancerguide.org
> * Thuo hypothesis at second-opinions.co.uk
> *ColeyToxinsDetailed Scientific Review at mdanderson.org
>
> Further reading
>
> * Hall, Steven S. (1997) A Commotion in the Blood. New
> York, New York: Henry Holt and Company. ISBN
> 0-8050-5841-9
>
> External links
>
> * MBVax Bioscience Inc producesColey'stoxins
> *Coley'sfluid clinical trial
>
> See also
>
> *ColeyFluid"
>
> The link for the above mentioned "ColeyToxinsDetailed Scientific
> Review at mdanderson.org" is
>
> Biologic/Organic/Pharmacologic Therapies:ColeyToxinsDetailed Scientific Review
> Overview
> <http://www.mdanderson.org/departments/cimer/display.cfm?id=35F66009-F....>
> (<http://tinyurl.com/3a6gfg>)
>
> It describes the current situation withColey'stoxinsas follows:
>
> "Current Situation
>
> Charles Starnes at AMGEN in California15 and Dr. Lloyd J.
> Old, retired from Sloan-Kettering Institute18, have used the
> toxinsexperimentally within the laboratory4. TheColey
> Pharmaceutical Group, a private biotechnology company, is
> conducting research with specific genetic sequences that may
> have contributed to the therapeutic effects ofColey
> toxins19.
>
> The Waisbren Clinic in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, treats patients
> with cancer with a mixed bacterial vaccine consisting of
> modifiedColeytoxinsplus 10 strains of the heat killed
> streptococcus bacteria which causes burn infections, plus
> BCG, transfer factor donated by relatives of patients, and a
> strain of lymphoblastoid lymphocytes combined with Epstein-
> Barr virus 20. An uncontrolled clinical series study by that
> center is reviewed within the Summary of Research and
> Annotated Bibliographic sections of this therapy review.
> Further information concerning the treatment at that clinic
> is available at that web site21.
>
> Thetoxinsare reportedly being used outside the U. S. in
> Mexico22, Guatemala23, Germany24 and the People's Republic of
> China (Beijing Children's Hospital and Shanghai5).
>
> According to the American Cancer Society's Guide to
> Complementary Alternative Cancer Methods, "Scientific
> evidence suggestsColeytoxinsor the mixed bacterial vaccine
> (MBV) may have a therapeutic role in the treatment of cancer
> in a combined treatment approach." However, they also comment
> that much has been learned about the science of immunology
> and practice of immunotherapy sinceColey's time and that
> modern immunotherapy is likely to be of greater value25.
>
> Coleytoxinstherapy has also been reviewed by Wiemann and
> Starnes in the Department of Pharmacology of Amgen, Inc.15
>
> More information on the science and research inColeytoxin
> therapy is provided in the Summary of
> ...
>
> read more »


Many thanks for an informative and extremely interesting
posting with numerous references of great interest.

Although my main areas of interest involve Chinese Herbology,
the utilization of therapies such as Coley's toxins are of
great interest.

Thanks again
Citizen Jimserac

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  #20  
Old 06-18-2007, 08:31 PM
Citizen Jimserac
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Coley's toxins - an important part of cancer treatment history (Re: Please help me find a website.)

On May 28, 4:22 pm, "OldBill" <matb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Matti Narkia" <m...@mbnet.fi> wrote in message
>
> news:sgpj53l6j8p96hkdf9nnshjivm18j5k8hd@4ax.com...
> | On Sun, 27 May 2007 14:36:03 -0400, J <nexsw@nvalid,anon> wrote:
> || >Matti Narkia wrote:
>
> | >Plonk !
> |
> | It seems that J has once again run out of arguments and resorted to
> | her disrespectful, intolerant behavior ...
>
> Quite so, Matti, quite so
>
> ... ... for reasons I will probably
> | never understand ...
>
> Really, Matti, you sure about that? After all these years, and all you've
> read?
>
> ... ... As a cancer patient, who gets a lot from this
> | and tries to give something back now and then, I cannot feel good
> | about this situation ... ...
>
> There is no need to fret, none at all. You're are not the first and you
> won't be the last.
> Your expositions are relevant, masterly, and open-minded, and delivered with
> sympathy and sensitivity,A true asset to this NG, but sadly casting pearls
> before swine.
> and I don't mean everyone ,there will be many like me who are grateful for
> your messages.
>
> ... ... I wish there would be a solution for it.
> | --
> | Matti Narkia
>
> There is, there is. Ignore it. Simply replonk!
> and carry on the good work.
>
> I don't know how much written response there will be to what I say but
> I'm damned sure I'm not alone.
>
> Old Bill


You are correct, the original poster has made an outstanding
contribution of great interest to genuine researchers.

Thanks
Citizen Jimserac

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