Update, bone mets

Hi,

Dad got diagnosed with bone mets in him sacrum and lower lumbar area
yesterday. He started the first of two weeks of radiation treatment
today. He is shell shocked at the moment and having a hard time not
feeling really down. I feel helpless in what I can do and say. I have
not spoken to Mom but I am sure she is a mess.

Any idea how long someone lives after bone mets have set in? Life
expectancy ranges? He did start a new chemo last week, we don't know
how well that one is working yet.

I should not complain, he was diagnosed July 2005 and given 6-9 months
to live. I still feel ripped off though. He is only 57 and has always
been bigger than life. I'm not the only one who feels this way. His
other firefighter peers have always looked up to him and respected him
a great deal.

Anyways, I needed to vent. It is hard being upbeat for the family
sometimes. I know from my own chronic illness that a person cannot let
the black clouds take over, or you may as well die right now. You must
take the happy moments, the painfree moments and the loving moments
when you can. In sickness and in health. I'm just having a hard time
living by my own philosophy at the moment.

Nina

NinaW wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Dad got diagnosed with bone mets in him sacrum and lower lumbar area
> yesterday. He started the first of two weeks of radiation treatment
> today. He is shell shocked at the moment and having a hard time not
> feeling really down. I feel helpless in what I can do and say. I have
> not spoken to Mom but I am sure she is a mess.
>
> Any idea how long someone lives after bone mets have set in? Life
> expectancy ranges? He did start a new chemo last week, we don't know
> how well that one is working yet.
>
>
Hi, Nina,

Socks had bone mets when diagnosed with a similar prognosis as your
dad. His were higher in the ribs & neck area. Radiotherapy helped the
pain. He lived over 4 years. A friend had lower bone mets & developed
microfractures which hindered mobility. Socks took a chemo-like drug -
blanking on the name - to strengthen the bones. She didn't. You might
ask about the microfractures & the treatments. The main thing about
the bone mets was the pain for Socks; we don't think they hastened his
death.

We had assumed when he got liver mets, it was all over, but he lived
almost 2 years past discovering those. So you just don't always know.

Please get all the facts before assuming the worst. I hope the best
for your dad & your family.

Hugs,
Fig

Figgertoes wrote:

> Steph wrote:
> >
>
> > There isn't much evidence that chemo affects survival time for most of the
> > common cancers once a patient has bone mets, by the way
>
> Steph, do you remember the drug Socks took for the bone mets? It was
> administerd like chemo but it wasn't chemo. It seemed to strengthen
> the bone met areas & may have limited spread. I'd know it if I heard
> it - have been thinking ever since reading Nina's post.

Zometa
J

J wrote:
> NinaW wrote:
>
> > Well, chemo confusion and me not being there asking the questions....
> > Dad does not have bone mets at the sacrum, he has a soft tissue tumor
> > at the level of the sacrum, right up against it, that is being treated
> > with radiation. What that means, I don't know. He is already sensing
> > relief from the back pain that has been bothering him lately. This is
> > supposed to take care of the tumor that is causing this pain.
> > Implications, I don't know what they are. He is more encouraged, I
> > think, because bone mets would be more serious (in his view) for his
> > outcome. Personally, I think that mets are mets for the most part.
> > Obviously bone and brain have their own set of concerns...

> >
> > Thanks to all for the help. One question, should we ask about the bone
> > remineralization issues because of where the radiation is being
> > directed?
>
> Hello Nina,
> Bisphosphonates are drugs that can help to slow down the destruction of
> bone. They are mainly used to treat the bone thinning disease,
> osteoporosis. But they have also been used to treat secondary bone
> cancer. In research, it has been shown to slow down the progress of bone
> secondaries in both breast cancer and prostate cancer. It has been tested
> in a number of clinical trials for prostate cancer. One American trial
> recruited more than 600 men with prostate cancer and bone secondaries.
> They found that zoledronate could
> * Lower bone pain
> * Help to prevent fractures
> * Help to prevent pressure on the spinal cord from damage to bones in
> the spine
> The zoledronate did have side effects. The men taking it were more likely
> to have fatigue, anaemia, muscle aches, fevers and swelling in the feet or
> legs than the men taking the dummy treatment (placebo).
>
> On the BC website
> http://www.bccancer.bc.ca/HPI/DrugDa...amidronate.htm
> Pamidronate is a second-generation bisphosphonate, which inhibits bone
> resorption
> Primary uses: *Osteolytic bone metastases13-17
> *Tumour-induced hypercalcemia9-11
> Other uses: Bone loss due to androgen suppression in prostate cancer12
> <end quote>
>
> I was reading that Zometa is more expensive but infusion time less than
> Aredia.
> Maybe it's too expensive (in cost and side effects vs benefits) and they
> deal with bone by radiation therapy for other cancers. And monitoring for
> osteolytic bone metastases and/or reported pains and pre-emptive RT, and
> bloodwork, watching for hypercalcemia

> Hugs
> J

Aredia is thought to have less destructive effect on the liver, always
a problem. Partly the result of the slower infusion [i.e., increased
amount of saline]. And bisphosphates are also used for multiple myeloma
[stage 2 in my case] along with four-day shock doses of steroids
[[Decadron 40mgs/day for four days each month]] and calcium + D
supplements as well as weekly ProCrit for the anemia. The flat bone
pain of the initial two infusions was pretty severe for two days, but
the recent ones have simply caused fatigue for several days and an
ocassional lumpishness [technical terrms] on my wrists. No edema,
though.

As for the fever, noone bothered to mention it to me, so when my temp
was from one to three degrees high for several days, I almost freaked
out. With MM, my white blood cell [sic] is outnumbered by my three red
cells, all of whom are rushing around like the brooms in the Sorcerer's
Apprentice. Since the white cell can't be everywhere at once, during
the last six months, I've been hospitalized for eight days with
streptococcal septicemia [and three weeks of heavy-duty antibiotic iv's
at home] and again for three days with candida [antifungals and four
units of blood to feed the Barrett's Syndrome].

Meanwhile, the weather is gorgeous [Any weather is!], the trees are in
technicolour, the cardinal couple has decided to winter over, and I
woke up this morning beside my adored wife. So who's complaining?

Anything I can do, dlet me know.
Popper

Popper wrote:

> Aredia is thought to have less destructive effect on the liver, always
> a problem. Partly the result of the slower infusion [i.e., increased
> amount of saline]. And bisphosphates are also used for multiple myeloma
> [stage 2 in my case] along with four-day shock doses of steroids
> [[Decadron 40mgs/day for four days each month]] and calcium + D
> supplements as well as weekly ProCrit for the anemia. The flat bone
> pain of the initial two infusions was pretty severe for two days, but
> the recent ones have simply caused fatigue for several days and an
> ocassional lumpishness [technical terrms] on my wrists. No edema,
> though.
>
> As for the fever, noone bothered to mention it to me, so when my temp
> was from one to three degrees high for several days, I almost freaked
> out. With MM, my white blood cell [sic] is outnumbered by my three red
> cells, all of whom are rushing around like the brooms in the Sorcerer's
> Apprentice. Since the white cell can't be everywhere at once, during
> the last six months, I've been hospitalized for eight days with
> streptococcal septicemia [and three weeks of heavy-duty antibiotic iv's
> at home] and again for three days with candida [antifungals and four
> units of blood to feed the Barrett's Syndrome].
>
> Meanwhile, the weather is gorgeous [Any weather is!], the trees are in
> technicolour, the cardinal couple has decided to winter over, and I
> woke up this morning beside my adored wife. So who's complaining?
>
> Anything I can do, dlet me know.
> Popper

Thank you, Popper
It is glorious weather these days.

Sounds like you've had tough times recently; I hope that improves for you.

What's units of blood got to do with Barrett's, please?
Bisphosphonates cause bleeding in the esophagus?

We don't get many myeloma posters here and I appreciate how you explain.
So I hope you can be a regular. There's so much we can learn from reading your
posts.
Kindly,
J

"Popper" <donrubin@adelphia.net> wrote in
news:1160225547.263991.310440@i42g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:

>
> J wrote:
>> NinaW wrote:
>>
>
>
Popper, it looks like you know how to look on the bright side & that's a
wonderful thing. I hope you, your wife & Mr./Mrs Cardinal enjoy more
wonderful weather - lots of it.

Socks was on Zometa for a very long time & the 1st infusion or 2 caused
horrendous bone pain, but he said that was just the meds attacking the
cancer. That's how he saw it. Then pain leveled out.

The edema happened very late - within the last month of life. My friend
who died of breast cancer had as severe as his & for a year prior to death
& she took nothing like Zometa, although she did have microfractures in her
spine.. But that's just 2 cases which don't prove anything by themselves.
She was in a wheelchair & Socks stopped being so active. Circulatory
systems might have been compromised.

Fig

I saw Mom and Dad today. Just like I suspected they have been keeping
things from me and the family. The mets in his liver are worse again,
after having been better for quite awhile. His lymph nodes are also
worse.

They have been going through the process that Dad will not achieve
remission like they have been hoping and working for. Both of them are
terrified. I think my visit was good. I talked to them about death and
calling the local hospice group. I told Dad that he needs help in
dealing with his fear so that he does not wear it around his neck for
the time he has left. He still has time for happy memories. I think
they were relieved to address the big elephant in the room that they
were both not ready to see up until recently.

I'm doing O.K. I'm not going to waste the time I have left with him if
I can help it. There is plenty of time to grieve later. I am sad
though, this is hard.

Anyways, I'm feeling a bit drained. It's tough work doing this honesty
thing with such a hard topic....

Nina

> > Meanwhile, the weather is gorgeous [Any weather is!], the trees are in
> > technicolour, the cardinal couple has decided to winter over, and I
> > woke up this morning beside my adored wife. So who's complaining?
> >
> > Anything I can do, let me know.
> > Popper
>
> Thank you, Popper
> It is glorious weather these days.
>
> What's units of blood got to do with Barrett's, please?
> Bisphosphonates cause bleeding in the esophagus?
>
> So I hope you can be a regular. There's so much we can learn from reading your
> posts.
> Kindly,
> J

J -

While Barrett's includes esophageal damage, frequently precancerous
cells [low risk], and possible/probable muscle & sphincter damage, it
also implies a genetic screw-up and long-term acid problem. Therefore,
there can be esophageal/stomach/intestinal bleeding [any or all]. On at
least two occasions, I've had pretty severe internal bleeding on top
of the MM anemia [Down to one red blood cell,... but a hard worker!]
Currently, I'm on two 40mgs of Protonix a day after a month of a
slurry [i.e., sucralfate]. Everything's as healed as it will ever be,
the latest esophageal biopsy shows no malignancy [Happy day!], and
I'm back on 81mgs aspirin.

That last is meaningful because when I had thinners during an arterial
heart stent insertion in 2002, I bled out internally and vagalled a
couple of times No blood pressure and, according to my wife, more
panicked white coats than you'd see on "ER". Copious bleeding in
esophagus, stomach, and intestine. Losing blood that's already low on
white and red cells and much too high on platelets is considered to be
bad form by the medical profession and even worse form by me!

I was one of the first to swallow one of the tiny Israeli space ships
that radios continuous photos from uvula to anus. Talk about invasion
of privacy! Oh, and contrary to general belief, there are no teensy
intestinauts piloting it. They emailed me some of the clips. When I
watch them, I feel like I must have swallowed my own head..., or
something like that.

Remind me to tell anyone who's interested how MM can cause blindness;
it came much too close for comfort!
I'll try to keep in contact, and thanks.
Popper

"NinaW" <radiography@canada.com> wrote in news:1160361040.052675.293920
@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

>
> I saw Mom and Dad today. Just like I suspected they have been keeping
> things from me and the family. The mets in his liver are worse again,
> after having been better for quite awhile. His lymph nodes are also
> worse.
>
> They have been going through the process that Dad will not achieve
> remission like they have been hoping and working for. Both of them are
> terrified. I think my visit was good. I talked to them about death and
> calling the local hospice group. I told Dad that he needs help in
> dealing with his fear so that he does not wear it around his neck for
> the time he has left. He still has time for happy memories. I think
> they were relieved to address the big elephant in the room that they
> were both not ready to see up until recently.
>
> I'm doing O.K. I'm not going to waste the time I have left with him if
> I can help it. There is plenty of time to grieve later. I am sad
> though, this is hard.
>
> Anyways, I'm feeling a bit drained. It's tough work doing this honesty
> thing with such a hard topic....
>
> Nina
>
Nina,
It was hard enough broaching these topics from a wife perspective, so I
can only imagine how difficult as a daughter. Perhaps someone in hospice
can lead your father to acceptance of death. So very important. Socks
saw a therapist every week for the 4+ years post diagnosis & somehow that
topic didn't get worked on. Not that the sessions didn't serve him well
- not saying that - but it took a hospice chaplain to help him through
this part. And I believe he did get there. Your dad needs to find the
right person for him to work with, so it may take more than one. We
almost waited too late, so I'm glad you are beginning the dialog now
while your dad is relatively well.

I feel for you. It is hard work to do this well. Your love & compassion
come through clearly in your writing. Be as gentle & forgiving with
yourself as you obviously are with your parents, & you will grow & learn
through this as well. You've no doubt heard the song below. We sang it
in a circle at a cancer workshop - patients & caregivers together. A
good reminder, I think. Sometimes we give/sometimes we receive...

Bill Withers - Lean on Me Lyrics

Sometimes in our lives we all have pain
We all have sorrow
But if we are wise
We know that there's always tomorrow

Lean on me, when you're not strong
And I'll be your friend
I'll help you carry on
For it won't be long
'Til I'm gonna need
Somebody to lean on

Please swallow your pride
If I have things you need to borrow
For no one can fill those of your needs
That you don't let show

Lean on me, when you're not strong
And I'll be your friend
I'll help you carry on
For it won't be long
'Til I'm gonna need
Somebody to lean on

If there is a load you have to bear
That you can't carry
I'm right up the road
I'll share your load
If you just call me

So just call on me brother, when you need a hand
We all need somebody to lean on
I just might have a problem that you'd understand
We all need somebody to lean on

Lean on me when you're not strong
And I'll be your friend
I'll help you carry on
For it won't be long
Till I'm gonna need
Somebody to lean on

Lean on me...

Fig

NinaW wrote:

> I saw Mom and Dad today. Just like I suspected they have been keeping
> things from me and the family. The mets in his liver are worse again,
> after having been better for quite awhile. His lymph nodes are also
> worse.
>
> They have been going through the process that Dad will not achieve
> remission like they have been hoping and working for. Both of them are
> terrified. I think my visit was good. I talked to them about death and
> calling the local hospice group. I told Dad that he needs help in
> dealing with his fear so that he does not wear it around his neck for
> the time he has left. He still has time for happy memories. I think
> they were relieved to address the big elephant in the room that they
> were both not ready to see up until recently.
>
> I'm doing O.K. I'm not going to waste the time I have left with him if
> I can help it. There is plenty of time to grieve later. I am sad
> though, this is hard.
>
> Anyways, I'm feeling a bit drained. It's tough work doing this honesty
> thing with such a hard topic....

( ( ( Hugs Nina ) ) ) A somber discussion for Thanksgiving.
You've gotten the ball rolling; that's good.
But as you may have seen here; one cannnot plan for every contingency, but
there's probably some that shoud be discussed with your mother, since
she'll be the main caregiver. I posted about stents, J and G tubes and
ethical issues.
She needs to be ready for the months to come; as in taking care of her own
health; checkups, dental and medication needs. Yoo too, because from
hereon, the focus could be all on your father.
I'm sure that hospice, once arranged, will be at the ready to meet your
father's medication needs and with mobility aides, tips for showering or
bathing, sleeping arrangements, who to call when one thing or another
happens.

Sounds like radiation therapy is at the ready, as needed.
All important especially if bone mets get involved.

And then there's the unanticipated ones, like infections, bleeds, clots
and pneumonia.
Sometimes life-ending events can't be planned for. Or they can...
As your father becomes less and less able to make decisions about his own
care, you and your mother will be called on to make decisions, sometiimes
"on the fly"; intercede, rush him to hospital or let the process happen,
knowing that interceding might prolong his life but also prolong his
suffering.

I'll leave it at that for you and your mother to discuss as time goes by
and as your father worsens.
Hopefully that won't start happening too soon and you'll have lots of
quality times left.
Sad time, but glad they decided to share with you, so you can help them.
J

Popper wrote:

> J wrote:
> > What's units of blood got to do with Barrett's, please?
> > Bisphosphonates cause bleeding in the esophagus?
> >
> > So I hope you can be a regular. There's so much we can learn from reading your
> > posts.
>
>
> J -
>
> While Barrett's includes esophageal damage, frequently precancerous
> cells [low risk], and possible/probable muscle & sphincter damage, it
> also implies a genetic screw-up and long-term acid problem. Therefore,
> there can be esophageal/stomach/intestinal bleeding [any or all]. On at
> least two occasions, I've had pretty severe internal bleeding on top
> of the MM anemia [Down to one red blood cell,... but a hard worker!]
> Currently, I'm on two 40mgs of Protonix a day after a month of a
> slurry [i.e., sucralfate]. Everything's as healed as it will ever be,
> the latest esophageal biopsy shows no malignancy [Happy day!], and
> I'm back on 81mgs aspirin.
>
> That last is meaningful because when I had thinners during an arterial
> heart stent insertion in 2002, I bled out internally and vagalled a
> couple of times No blood pressure and, according to my wife, more
> panicked white coats than you'd see on "ER". Copious bleeding in
> esophagus, stomach, and intestine. Losing blood that's already low on
> white and red cells and much too high on platelets is considered to be
> bad form by the medical profession and even worse form by me!
>
> I was one of the first to swallow one of the tiny Israeli space ships
> that radios continuous photos from uvula to anus. Talk about invasion
> of privacy! Oh, and contrary to general belief, there are no teensy
> intestinauts piloting it. They emailed me some of the clips. When I
> watch them, I feel like I must have swallowed my own head..., or
> something like that.
>
> Remind me to tell anyone who's interested how MM can cause blindness;
> it came much too close for comfort!
> I'll try to keep in contact, and thanks.
> Popper

Thank you for the explanations, Popper.
Yes I've seen a video of the Israeli space ship and watched posts about that on
sci.med.
Thjere's a GI doctor who discusses it there.
I look forward to hearing more from you, as able.
Take good care of you.
J

Thanks Fig and J. I have been speaking to Mom about the things she is
afraid of, being alone for the first time in her life. She has never
dealt with finances, I told her we would help her with that and start
on it soon so that things are easier for her and Dad. I also spoke to
her about her drinking problem and getting herself healthy. She really
wants to do that but feels so lost and like there is so much to deal
with. She did start antidepressants yesterday and was a lot easier to
talk to. I don't know if she will stay on them because she felt dopey.
I did encourage her to start with a small dose and stick with them for
a couple of weeks to see if that feeling went away or got better.

As for the stents and other body issues, well, I used to deal with
those things all the time. Before I got sick and went on LTD I worked
at a cancer hospital in the interventional suite of the x-ray
department. We put all sort of tubes into people, mostly cancer
patients. I have a very good understanding where this is concerned and
will help my family with this area.

I did talk to Mom about burial plots. Dad told her that he wanted to be
buried beside her, he is most adamant about this. She told me this
while we were outside getting fresh air. I suggested that they go
together and pick out two. That way Dad knows where he and Mom will end
up. He can be part of the process and decision.

We don't know how long Dad will last. He started a new chemo that could
extend his life by months again. He could have a complication that
takes him sooner. I pray for him to find his way out of the fear and
into peace. His faith is strong that he and everyone he loves will meet
in heaven again.

Nina
NinaW wrote:
> I saw Mom and Dad today. Just like I suspected they have been keeping
> things from me and the family. The mets in his liver are worse again,
> after having been better for quite awhile. His lymph nodes are also
> worse.
>
> They have been going through the process that Dad will not achieve
> remission like they have been hoping and working for. Both of them are
> terrified. I think my visit was good. I talked to them about death and
> calling the local hospice group. I told Dad that he needs help in
> dealing with his fear so that he does not wear it around his neck for
> the time he has left. He still has time for happy memories. I think
> they were relieved to address the big elephant in the room that they
> were both not ready to see up until recently.
>
> I'm doing O.K. I'm not going to waste the time I have left with him if
> I can help it. There is plenty of time to grieve later. I am sad
> though, this is hard.
>
> Anyways, I'm feeling a bit drained. It's tough work doing this honesty
> thing with such a hard topic....
>
> Nina

NinaW wrote:

> Thanks Fig and J. I have been speaking to Mom about the things she is
> afraid of, being alone for the first time in her life. She has never
> dealt with finances, I told her we would help her with that and start
> on it soon so that things are easier for her and Dad. I also spoke to
> her about her drinking problem and getting herself healthy. She really
> wants to do that but feels so lost and like there is so much to deal
> with. She did start antidepressants yesterday and was a lot easier to
> talk to. I don't know if she will stay on them because she felt dopey.
> I did encourage her to start with a small dose and stick with them for
> a couple of weeks to see if that feeling went away or got better.

Good idea. Sometimes taking them earlier, in the evening and going to bed
earlier, helps.
I see things are well in hand, with your involvement, Nina.
Maybe it's too early for hospice, since he'll still be on active treatment.
In addition, if he feels well...there might not be much required, in the
near future.
I'm sure yuu'll help them sort it out.
Thank you for filling us in, Nina.
Hugs
J

"NinaW" <radiography@canada.com> wrote in news:1160413729.697688.65740
@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Nina,
I'm glad to read you've covered a lot of ground in such a short time.

I hope they are able to enjoy the time they have - maybe getting some
things taken care of such as the finances, burial plots, etc & your
mother's adjustment to the antidepressants will move them in a positive
direction. And your being there for them.

Best wishes, Nina.

Hugs,
Fig

Figgertoes wrote:
> "Popper" <donrubin@adelphia.net> wrote in
> news:1160225547.263991.310440@i42g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:

> Popper, it looks like you know how to look on the bright side & that's a
> wonderful thing. I hope you, your wife & Mr./Mrs Cardinal enjoy more
> wonderful weather - lots of it.
>
> Socks was on Zometa for a very long time & the 1st infusion or 2 caused
> horrendous bone pain, but he said that was just the meds attacking the
> cancer. That's how he saw it. Then pain leveled out.
>
> The edema happened very late - within the last month of life. My friend
> who died of breast cancer had as severe as his & for a year prior to death
> & she took nothing like Zometa, although she did have microfractures in her
> spine.. But that's just 2 cases which don't prove anything by themselves.
> She was in a wheelchair & Socks stopped being so active. Circulatory
> systems might have been compromised.
>
> Fig

FIG -
For me, a sense of humor [the scratch of sanity in an otherwise unsane
world] along with a strong sense/acceptance of both my vulnerability
and fallibility keeps me cheerful most of the time and able to ride
Depression until it tires whenever it arrives. [Awkward sentence.
Sorry.]

Socks was right about the bone pain. It mostly hit my flat bones
[e.g., the pelvic girdle, scapula, lower back and neck, etc.], which
are the marrow bones that are misproducing platelets [wild healing...
back to the Sorcerer's Apprentice and those damned, hyperactive
brooms]. And he was right about the pain, itself, being horrendous. I
had a sharp go-around with my oncologist; she never told me about the
side effects, didn't give me painkillers for what was coming, and
omitted warning me about high temps. Phone recommendation was Tylenol
for pain and temp. Right!] I had some ankle and foot edema after the
first iv, but nothing since.

Be kind to yourself, Fig,...on a regular basis.

And a sad hug to ((Nina)); slow goodbyes are hardest for the
significant others,--all of them. Both of my brothers died during a
six-month period last year of pancreatic cancer; neither of them ever
even allowed themselves to see the elephant, let alone acknowledge it
as a natural visitor. I tried to help them, but failed. Just as well,
probably. Denial is a blanket, and removing it too rapidly can freeze
the victim [Stress is just another kind of killer.]

And to J: thanks. You give remarkably balanced insights about terminal
situations. [I'm just sorry you had to learn them.]

Popper

"Popper" <donrubin@adelphia.net> wrote in
news:1160505159.428360.305650@k70g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:

>
> Figgertoes wrote:
>> "Popper" <donrubin@adelphia.net> wrote in
>> news:1160225547.263991.310440@i42g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com:
>> Socks was on Zometa for a very long time & the 1st infusion or 2
>> caused horrendous bone pain, but he said that was just the meds
>> attacking the cancer. That's how he saw it. Then pain leveled out.
>>
>>
>> Fig
>
> FIG -
>
> Socks was right about the bone pain. It mostly hit my flat bones
> [e.g., the pelvic girdle, scapula, lower back and neck, etc.], which
> are the marrow bones that are misproducing platelets [wild healing...
> back to the Sorcerer's Apprentice and those damned, hyperactive
> brooms]. And he was right about the pain, itself, being horrendous. I
> had a sharp go-around with my oncologist; she never told me about the
> side effects, didn't give me painkillers for what was coming, and
> omitted warning me about high temps. Phone recommendation was Tylenol
> for pain and temp. Right!] I had some ankle and foot edema after the
> first iv, but nothing since.
>
> Popper
>
Socks had his first Zometa treatment on a Friday & the worst pain on
Sunday. I found him forcing back tears. Told him we had to do something
- too much to bear. Sunday's a tough day to get help & he sure didn't
feel like sitting for hours in a hospital emergency room. He was doing
this ng but I didn't know what it was about yet. So he came down to the
computer & described his pain. Someone came back recommending a topical
lotion. Calls to the pharmacy lead us to discover it was a mail-order
item. So we went online & found out what type of stuff it was. I had
something I thought similar for arthritis &, sure enough, it helped more
than the swallowed pain killers.

Fig

"NinaW" <radiography@canada.com> wrote in message
news:1160361040.052675.293920@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
>
> I saw Mom and Dad today. Just like I suspected they have been keeping
> things from me and the family. The mets in his liver are worse again,
> after having been better for quite awhile. His lymph nodes are also
> worse.
>
> They have been going through the process that Dad will not achieve
> remission like they have been hoping and working for. Both of them are
> terrified. I think my visit was good. I talked to them about death and
> calling the local hospice group. I told Dad that he needs help in
> dealing with his fear so that he does not wear it around his neck for
> the time he has left. He still has time for happy memories. I think
> they were relieved to address the big elephant in the room that they
> were both not ready to see up until recently.
>
> I'm doing O.K. I'm not going to waste the time I have left with him if
> I can help it. There is plenty of time to grieve later. I am sad
> though, this is hard.
>
> Anyways, I'm feeling a bit drained. It's tough work doing this honesty
> thing with such a hard topic....
>
> Nina
>

Nina,

There is not much that I can say to help. I initially read these posts due
to the mention of bone mets, but I understand that this is not the case for
your Dad?

You sound as if you are going through a very similar situation to me earlier
this year. My Dad was 60 when diagnosed this March with agressive lung
cancer, bone mets, etc.. Just like your Dad, far too young, and a much
admired man.

Unfortunately, he died in July. However, during this brief time, he made
many many happy memories both for himself, and his family. Once the pain
relief (single dose of RT to spine / hips; biphosphates; steroids for
appetite; and various pain relief tablets) managed to get on top of the
worst of his pain, he lived life to the full.

He managed to organise a family party for his 31st Wedding Anniversary, and
presented really touching little personal gifts to each member of the
family. He saw his latest grandson born heathly and well. He arranged his
personal and business affairs, and saw his children every weekend.

Eventually, the lung cancer caused breathlessness, and he was admitted to a
hospice for stabilisation. He was only there for a week when he died. In a
way it was a great blessing that the final stages were not long and drawn
out, but none of us were really ready to say our goodbyes.

Like your Mum, mine had never had to deal with finances, utlity companies,
the internet, etc... However, she is now starting to get on top of all of
these challenges, even starting to use online banking to check her accounts!

None of it was easy for any of us, and we are still trying to come to terms
with the loss, but life does go on, and that is what Dad would have wanted.

I am sure that this is not much help to you, but I wanted to let you know
that you are not alone in this, and you seem to be doing an admirable job in
the circumstances. This group is a very useful source of support, and I hope
that you find some strength / solace here.

My email address here is not spam-trapped, so please feel free to get in
touch if I can help in any way.

All the best to you and your family in these difficult times, and I
sincerely hope that you manage to have some more happy memories with your
Dad.

Patrick

"Steph" <steph@vancouvers.island> wrote in message
news:Co_Ug.95270$R63.53758@pd7urf1no...
>
> "NinaW" <radiography@canada.com> wrote in message
> news:1159993746.338132.326600@m73g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...
>> Hi,
>>
>> Dad got diagnosed with bone mets in him sacrum and lower lumbar area
>> yesterday. He started the first of two weeks of radiation treatment
>> today. He is shell shocked at the moment and having a hard time not
>> feeling really down. I feel helpless in what I can do and say. I have
>> not spoken to Mom but I am sure she is a mess.
>>
>> Any idea how long someone lives after bone mets have set in? Life
>> expectancy ranges? He did start a new chemo last week, we don't know
>> how well that one is working yet.
>>
>
> Median survival in the largest trials is 20-30 weeks. The primary site is
> important, though.
>
> There isn't much evidence that chemo affects survival time for most of the
> common cancers once a patient has bone mets, by the way
Steph,

Does the median survival of 20 - 30 weeks apply to most bone mets? I have
mets from breast cancer. But somewhere I thought I had previously read a
median survival of 2 years?

Nana

"Nana" <Nana23@nexicom.net> wrote in message
news:521f2$452ed623$d8a87f2e$22218@NEXICOM.NET...
>
> "Steph" <steph@vancouvers.island> wrote in message
> news:Co_Ug.95270$R63.53758@pd7urf1no...
>>
>> "NinaW" <radiography@canada.com> wrote in message
>> news:1159993746.338132.326600@m73g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Dad got diagnosed with bone mets in him sacrum and lower lumbar area
>>> yesterday. He started the first of two weeks of radiation treatment
>>> today. He is shell shocked at the moment and having a hard time not
>>> feeling really down. I feel helpless in what I can do and say. I have
>>> not spoken to Mom but I am sure she is a mess.
>>>
>>> Any idea how long someone lives after bone mets have set in? Life
>>> expectancy ranges? He did start a new chemo last week, we don't know
>>> how well that one is working yet.
>>>
>>
>> Median survival in the largest trials is 20-30 weeks. The primary site is
>> important, though.
>>
>> There isn't much evidence that chemo affects survival time for most of
>> the common cancers once a patient has bone mets, by the way
> Steph,
>
> Does the median survival of 20 - 30 weeks apply to most bone mets? I have
> mets from breast cancer. But somewhere I thought I had previously read a
> median survival of 2 years?
>
> Nana
>

Yes, median survival for breast cancer with bone mets is longer - 20-22
months in most studies

Steph wrote:

> "Nana" <Nana23@nexicom.net> wrote in message
> news:521f2$452ed623$d8a87f2e$22218@NEXICOM.NET...
> >
> > "Steph" <steph@vancouvers.island> wrote in message
> > news:Co_Ug.95270$R63.53758@pd7urf1no...
> >>
> >> "NinaW" <radiography@canada.com> wrote in message
> >>>
> >>> Any idea how long someone lives after bone mets have set in? Life
> >>> expectancy ranges? He did start a new chemo last week, we don't know
> >>> how well that one is working yet.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Median survival in the largest trials is 20-30 weeks. The primary site is
> >> important, though.
> >>
> >> There isn't much evidence that chemo affects survival time for most of
> >> the common cancers once a patient has bone mets, by the way
> > Steph,
> >
> > Does the median survival of 20 - 30 weeks apply to most bone mets? I have
> > mets from breast cancer. But somewhere I thought I had previously read a
> > median survival of 2 years?
> >
>
> Yes, median survival for breast cancer with bone mets is longer - 20-22
> months in most studies.

And liver mets (from breast cancer) ?
J

"J" <ercent@anon.inv> wrote in message
news:452F489D.B2E7E328@execulink.com...
> Steph wrote:
>
>> "Nana" <Nana23@nexicom.net> wrote in message
>> news:521f2$452ed623$d8a87f2e$22218@NEXICOM.NET...
>> >
>> > "Steph" <steph@vancouvers.island> wrote in message
>> > news:Co_Ug.95270$R63.53758@pd7urf1no...
>> >>
>> >> "NinaW" <radiography@canada.com> wrote in message
>> >>>
>> >>> Any idea how long someone lives after bone mets have set in? Life
>> >>> expectancy ranges? He did start a new chemo last week, we don't know
>> >>> how well that one is working yet.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Median survival in the largest trials is 20-30 weeks. The primary site
>> >> is
>> >> important, though.
>> >>
>> >> There isn't much evidence that chemo affects survival time for most of
>> >> the common cancers once a patient has bone mets, by the way
>> > Steph,
>> >
>> > Does the median survival of 20 - 30 weeks apply to most bone mets? I
>> > have
>> > mets from breast cancer. But somewhere I thought I had previously read
>> > a
>> > median survival of 2 years?
>> >
>>
>> Yes, median survival for breast cancer with bone mets is longer - 20-22
>> months in most studies.
>
> And liver mets (from breast cancer) ?
> J
>
>

The prognosis for patients with visceral (soft tissue) mets is worse

Steph wrote:

> "J" <ercent@anon.inv> wrote in message
> >
> > And liver mets (from breast cancer) ?
>
> The prognosis for patients with visceral (soft tissue) mets is worse.

Thankis Steph,
Is there a "median" for that? (i've seen a number of quotes, one being 7 - 11
months)
Is there any evidence that chemotherapy helps prolong life, in ths situation?
She's starting her second cycle (of 4 weekly chemos) and a scan will be done
after that.
Is that standard for your province?

I don't know whether to keep her here and wait until after the scan to start
talking with her about preparations... or refer her to the breast cancer
newsgroup.
J

"J" <ercent@anon.inv> wrote in message
news:45302535.BDFD4A6C@execulink.com...
> Steph wrote:
>
>> "J" <ercent@anon.inv> wrote in message
>> >
>> > And liver mets (from breast cancer) ?
>>
>> The prognosis for patients with visceral (soft tissue) mets is worse.
>
> Thankis Steph,
> Is there a "median" for that? (i've seen a number of quotes, one being 7 -
> 11
> months)

That's about right

> Is there any evidence that chemotherapy helps prolong life, in ths
> situation?

For breast cancer, there is, but the median survivals quoted are for
patients having treatment. Very few "escape" without treatment in this day
and age.

> She's starting her second cycle (of 4 weekly chemos) and a scan will be
> done
> after that.
> Is that standard for your province?

Probably, but I'm generally not too interested in scans for the reasons
we've discussed often.

>
> I don't know whether to keep her here and wait until after the scan to
> start
> talking with her about preparations... or refer her to the breast cancer
> newsgroup.
> J
>

Steph wrote:

> "Nana" <Nana23@nexicom.net> wrote in message
> news:521f2$452ed623$d8a87f2e$22218@NEXICOM.NET...
> >
> > "Steph" <steph@vancouvers.island> wrote in message
> > news:Co_Ug.95270$R63.53758@pd7urf1no...
> >>
> >> "NinaW" <radiography@canada.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1159993746.338132.326600@m73g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...
> >
> >>> Any idea how long someone lives after bone mets have set in? Life
> >>> expectancy ranges? He did start a new chemo last week, we don't know
> >>> how well that one is working yet.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Median survival in the largest trials is 20-30 weeks. The primary site is
> >> important, though.
> >>
> >> There isn't much evidence that chemo affects survival time for most of
> >> the common cancers once a patient has bone mets, by the way
> > Steph,
> >
> > Does the median survival of 20 - 30 weeks apply to most bone mets? I have
> > mets from breast cancer. But somewhere I thought I had previously read a
> > median survival of 2 years?
> >
> > Nana
> >
>
> Yes, median survival for breast cancer with bone mets is longer - 20-22
> months in most studies

Male breast cancer as well?
J

"J" <ercent@anon.inv> wrote in message
news:454F14D5.C93EDE56@execulink.com...
> Steph wrote:
>
>> "Nana" <Nana23@nexicom.net> wrote in message
>> news:521f2$452ed623$d8a87f2e$22218@NEXICOM.NET...
>> >
>> > "Steph" <steph@vancouvers.island> wrote in message
>> > news:Co_Ug.95270$R63.53758@pd7urf1no...
>> >>
>> >> "NinaW" <radiography@canada.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:1159993746.338132.326600@m73g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...
>> >
>> >>> Any idea how long someone lives after bone mets have set in? Life
>> >>> expectancy ranges? He did start a new chemo last week, we don't know
>> >>> how well that one is working yet.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Median survival in the largest trials is 20-30 weeks. The primary site
>> >> is
>> >> important, though.
>> >>
>> >> There isn't much evidence that chemo affects survival time for most of
>> >> the common cancers once a patient has bone mets, by the way
>> > Steph,
>> >
>> > Does the median survival of 20 - 30 weeks apply to most bone mets? I
>> > have
>> > mets from breast cancer. But somewhere I thought I had previously read
>> > a
>> > median survival of 2 years?
>> >
>> > Nana
>> >
>>
>> Yes, median survival for breast cancer with bone mets is longer - 20-22
>> months in most studies
>
> Male breast cancer as well?
> J
>

Stage for stage, men do a bit worse.

Steph wrote:

> "J" <ercent@anon.inv> wrote in message
> > Steph wrote:
> >
> >> "Nana" <Nana23@nexicom.net> wrote in message
> >> >
> >> > "Steph" <steph@vancouvers.island> wrote in message
> >> >>
> >> >> "NinaW" <radiography@canada.com> wrote in message
> >> >
> >> >>> Any idea how long someone lives after bone mets have set in? Life
> >> >>> expectancy ranges? He did start a new chemo last week, we don't know
> >> >>> how well that one is working yet.
> >> >>>
> >> >> Median survival in the largest trials is 20-30 weeks. The primary site
> >> >> is important, though.
> >> >>
> >> >> There isn't much evidence that chemo affects survival time for most of
> >> >> the common cancers once a patient has bone mets, by the way
> >> > Steph,
> >> >
> >> > Does the median survival of 20 - 30 weeks apply to most bone mets? I
> >> > have mets from breast cancer. But somewhere I thought I had previously
> read
> >> > a median survival of 2 years?
> >> >
> >> > Nana
> >> >
> >>
> >> Yes, median survival for breast cancer with bone mets is longer - 20-22
> >> months in most studies
> >
> > Male breast cancer as well?
> > J
> >
>
> Stage for stage, men do a bit worse.

Okay, Thanks Steph. for this and any other replies that I've failed to thank you
for.
J