<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
Health Forums

Go Back   Health Forums > Diseases and Conditions > Diabetes > alt.support.diabetes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-10-2008, 02:17 PM
Quentin Grady
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance


G'day G'day Folks,

I came across a magazine article suggesting that ACE inhibitors could
have significant effects making marked reductions in insulin
resistance and all sorts of other ways. The good news is that ACE
inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well
known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com

Indeed there was some rodent research suggesting that ACE inhibitors
could have that virtue. The research though was 2002.

Has there been significant human studies since?

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-10-2008, 07:59 PM
Jefferson
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

Quentin Grady wrote:

> G'day G'day Folks,
>
> I came across a magazine article suggesting that ACE inhibitors could
> have significant effects making marked reductions in insulin
> resistance and all sorts of other ways. The good news is that ACE
> inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well
> known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com
>
> Indeed there was some rodent research suggesting that ACE inhibitors
> could have that virtue. The research though was 2002.
>
> Has there been significant human studies since?
>

Scholar.google works better for specific ACE inhibitors.
"insulin resistance"+ramipril: 4,490 finds - http://tinyurl.com/6hs7ex.
Using advanced scholar.google resulted in 2,820 finds from 2003 to 2008
- http://tinyurl.com/5qahgu.
By adding diabetes to the advanced search there were still 2,730 finds -
http://tinyurl.com/5hduhm.

One of those finds was "Adiponectin and adiponectin receptors in insulin
resistance, diabetes, and the metabolic syndrome" -
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1483172

(Adiponectin secretion occurs from fat cells and a higher level is
associated with less insulin resistance. Adiponectin also exists in 3
forms of which the higher density form is the most active. Weight
reduction helps to increase adiponectin levels. The lab that my doctor
uses does not have a test for adiponectin.)

The adiponectin article referenced "Koh K.K., et al. Vascular and
metabolic effects of combined therapy with ramipril and simvastatin in
patients with type 2 diabetes. Hypertension. 2005;45:1088–1093.
[PubMed]" - http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/45/6/1088

"Mechanisms underlying biological effects of statin and
angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitor therapies differ.
Therefore, we compared vascular and metabolic responses to these
therapies either alone or in combination in patients with type 2
diabetes. ... Fifty patients with type 2 diabetes were given simvastatin
20 mg and placebo, simvastatin 20 mg and ramipril 10 mg, or ramipril 10
mg and placebo daily during each 2-month treatment period. Ramipril
alone or combined therapy significantly reduced blood pressure when
compared with simvastatin alone. When compared with ramipril alone,
simvastatin alone or combined therapy significantly improved the
lipoprotein profile. All 3 treatment arms significantly improved
flow-mediated dilator response to hyperemia and reduced plasma levels of
malondialdehyde relative to baseline measurements. However, these
parameters were changed to a greater extent with combined therapy when
compared with simvastatin or ramipril alone (P<0.001 by ANOVA). When
compared with simvastatin or ramipril alone, combined therapy
significantly reduced high-sensitivity C-reactive protein levels
(P=0.004 by ANOVA). Interestingly, combined therapy or ramipril alone
significantly increased plasma adiponectin levels and insulin
sensitivity relative to baseline measurements. These changes were
significantly greater than in the group treated with simvastatin alone
(P<0.015 by ANOVA). Ramipril combined with simvastatin had beneficial
vascular and metabolic effects when compared with monotherapy in
patients with type 2 diabetes."
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-10-2008, 09:33 PM
W. Baker
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

In alt.support.diabetes Jefferson <Jefferson@comcast.net> wrote:
: Quentin Grady wrote:

: > G'day G'day Folks,
: >
: > I came across a magazine article suggesting that ACE inhibitors could
: > have significant effects making marked reductions in insulin
: > resistance and all sorts of other ways. The good news is that ACE
: > inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well
: > known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com
: >
: > Indeed there was some rodent research suggesting that ACE inhibitors
: > could have that virtue. The research though was 2002.
: >
: > Has there been significant human studies since?
: >
: Scholar.google works better for specific ACE inhibitors.
: "insulin resistance"+ramipril: 4,490 finds - http://tinyurl.com/6hs7ex.
: Using advanced scholar.google resulted in 2,820 finds from 2003 to 2008
: - http://tinyurl.com/5qahgu.
: By adding diabetes to the advanced search there were still 2,730 finds -
: http://tinyurl.com/5hduhm.

Just a small piece of informatioon. I was just informed that Ramiprill is
now avalable generic. As it is is early days yet, the cost has not come
down a ton, but after some months, when several generic makers will be
able to compete, it shoudl get even better in price. Formerly, this was
Altace.

Wendy
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-11-2008, 05:06 AM
willbill
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

W. Baker wrote:

> In alt.support.diabetes Jefferson <Jefferson@comcast.net> wrote:


> : Quentin Grady wrote:
>
> : > G'day G'day Folks,
> : >
> : > I came across a magazine article suggesting that ACE inhibitors could
> : > have significant effects making marked reductions in insulin
> : > resistance and all sorts of other ways. The good news is that ACE
> : > inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well
> : > known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com



sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE
and possible reduction of insulin resistance,
since i'm a t1 and don't suffer from
insulin resistance



> Just a small piece of informatioon. I was just informed that Ramiprill is
> now avalable generic. As it is is early days yet, the cost has not come
> down a ton, but after some months, when several generic makers will be
> able to compete, it shoudl get even better in price. Formerly, this was
> Altace.
>
> Wendy



thank you VERY MUCH for the ref on *generic* ramipril.

fwiw, pull down the 20 page pdf at:
http://www.consumerreports.org/healt...drugs/ACEI.pdf

page 10 (of 20) is the one that gets my eye
for ramipril

i'm currently using Wal-Mart's generic enalapril
at a very attractive yearly price, with almost
no cough side effect (very minor for me, and at
most once a week)

i'll get my doc to write me a script for ramipril,
than keep asking at two different pharmacies,
until the price comes down (it took something
like 9-to-12 months for the price of generic
simvastatin to really come down)

i hope i don't get a cough with ramipril
(i did with Accupril(generic=quinipril))

do you know if it is ok to split ramipril pills?

bill t1 since '57
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-11-2008, 03:48 PM
W. Baker
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

In alt.support.diabetes willbill <trek@worldwide.net> wrote:
: W. Baker wrote:

: > In alt.support.diabetes Jefferson <Jefferson@comcast.net> wrote:

: > : Quentin Grady wrote:
: >
: > : > G'day G'day Folks,
: > : >
: > : > I came across a magazine article suggesting that ACE inhibitors could
: > : > have significant effects making marked reductions in insulin
: > : > resistance and all sorts of other ways. The good news is that ACE
: > : > inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well
: > : > known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com


: sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE
: and possible reduction of insulin resistance,
: since i'm a t1 and don't suffer from
: insulin resistance



: > Just a small piece of informatioon. I was just informed that Ramiprill is
: > now avalable generic. As it is is early days yet, the cost has not come
: > down a ton, but after some months, when several generic makers will be
: > able to compete, it shoudl get even better in price. Formerly, this was
: > Altace.
: >
: > Wendy


: thank you VERY MUCH for the ref on *generic* ramipril.

: fwiw, pull down the 20 page pdf at:
: http://www.consumerreports.org/healt...drugs/ACEI.pdf

: page 10 (of 20) is the one that gets my eye
: for ramipril

: i'm currently using Wal-Mart's generic enalapril
: at a very attractive yearly price, with almost
: no cough side effect (very minor for me, and at
: most once a week)

: i'll get my doc to write me a script for ramipril,
: than keep asking at two different pharmacies,
: until the price comes down (it took something
: like 9-to-12 months for the price of generic
: simvastatin to really come down)

: i hope i don't get a cough with ramipril
: (i did with Accupril(generic=quinipril))

: do you know if it is ok to split ramipril pills?

: bill t1 since '57

MIne are little capsules, so impossible to split. I don'tknow the form of
the generic yet as I am still working on my 3 month supple of Altace,
which I know comes in 5 and 10mg capsules. It may well com ein other
forms, but I don't know.

Wendy
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-11-2008, 10:07 PM
Trinkwasser
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

On Sat, 10 May 2008 19:56:20 +1200, Quentin Grady
<quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>
>G'day G'day Folks,
>
> I came across a magazine article suggesting that ACE inhibitors could
>have significant effects making marked reductions in insulin
>resistance and all sorts of other ways. The good news is that ACE
>inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well
>known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com
>
>Indeed there was some rodent research suggesting that ACE inhibitors
>could have that virtue. The research though was 2002.
>
>Has there been significant human studies since?


I've seen it mentioned in several papers which I've downloaded as pdfs
and am now reading/rereading, also with ARBs but the effect is
generally small, as with a lot of other things a fraction of what you
can achieve through diet and exercise
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-13-2008, 03:56 AM
Màck©®
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

On Sat, 10 May 2008 22:15:58 -0500, willbill <trek@worldwide.net>
wrote:

>W. Baker wrote:
>
>> In alt.support.diabetes Jefferson <Jefferson@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>> : Quentin Grady wrote:
>>
>> : > G'day G'day Folks,
>> : >
>> : > I came across a magazine article suggesting that ACE inhibitors could
>> : > have significant effects making marked reductions in insulin
>> : > resistance and all sorts of other ways. The good news is that ACE
>> : > inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well
>> : > known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com

>
>
>sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE
>and possible reduction of insulin resistance,
>since i'm a t1 and don't suffer from
>insulin resistance
>


that doesn't mean other type 1s don't have to deal with insulin
resistance.
--
Måck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"
http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/


"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-13-2008, 06:59 AM
willbill
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

Màck©® wrote:

> On Sat, 10 May 2008 22:15:58 -0500, willbill wrote:


>> sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE
>> and possible reduction of insulin resistance,
>> since i'm a t1 and don't suffer from
>> insulin resistance



> that doesn't mean other type 1s don't have to deal with
> insulin resistance.



kindly provide an approximate percentage
of type 1s that do have insulin resistance

and give a cite/site while you're at it

= = = = =

out of curiosity, do *you* have insulin resistance?


bill g1 since '57
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-13-2008, 04:35 PM
Nicky
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

On Mon, 12 May 2008 23:50:13 -0500, willbill <trek@worldwide.net>
wrote:

>Màck©® wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 10 May 2008 22:15:58 -0500, willbill wrote:

>
>>> sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE
>>> and possible reduction of insulin resistance,
>>> since i'm a t1 and don't suffer from
>>> insulin resistance

>
>
>> that doesn't mean other type 1s don't have to deal with
>> insulin resistance.

>
>
>kindly provide an approximate percentage
>of type 1s that do have insulin resistance
>
>and give a cite/site while you're at it


Surely all you T1s get it as you get older? I'm assuming that it's a
big part of the 20% less calories needed as a woman goes through
menopause - a purely age-related thing, as our bodies get less
efficient.

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-13-2008, 07:56 PM
Màck©®
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

On Mon, 12 May 2008 23:50:13 -0500, willbill <trek@worldwide.net>
wrote:
>
>out of curiosity, do *you* have insulin resistance?
>
>
>bill g1 since '57


yep, whenever I get sick.

--
Måck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"
http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/


"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-13-2008, 11:15 PM
Charly Coughran
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

willbill <trek@worldwide.net> wrote in
news:g0b6m50n4q@enews2.newsguy.com:

> Màck©® wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 10 May 2008 22:15:58 -0500, willbill wrote:

>
>>> sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE
>>> and possible reduction of insulin resistance,
>>> since i'm a t1 and don't suffer from
>>> insulin resistance

>
>
>> that doesn't mean other type 1s don't have to deal with
>> insulin resistance.

>
>
> kindly provide an approximate percentage
> of type 1s that do have insulin resistance
>
> and give a cite/site while you're at it
>
> = = = = =
>
> out of curiosity, do *you* have insulin resistance?
>
>
> bill g1 since '57


Attached are a few references in the order encountered in a quick search.
The next to last one suggests insulin resistance (metabolic syndrome)
occurs in 12-40% of type 1 diabetics, but it is a second tier journal at
best. The last one which concludes, "The greatest effect of
rosiglitazone occurred in subjects with more pronounced markers of
insulin resistance", didn't have enough information, at least in a quick
scan, to calculate a percentage.


Diabetes Metab Res Rev. 2002 May-Jun;18(3):192-200

Insulin resistance plays a larger role in the type 1 diabetes disease
process than is commonly recognized. The onset of type 1 diabetes is
often heralded by an antecedent illness and/or the onset of puberty, both
conditions associated with insulin resistance. In the face of a damaged
beta-cell and thus reduced insulin secretion, this change is enough to
manifest hyperglycemia. During the first year of clinical disease,
considerable evidence suggests that the occurrence of clinical remission
or 'honeymoon period' is due to a temporary resolution of the insulin-
resistant state present at diagnosis. Intensive diabetes management is
associated with both improved insulin sensitivity and beta-cell function.
This indicates that the historical data on the changes in insulin
secretion post-diagnosis may be inappropriate when designing current
studies. The known physiological relationship between beta-cell function
and insulin sensitivity complicates interpretation of insulin secretion
data obtained as part of prevention or intervention trials. While it is
recommended that at least a subset of subjects participating in these
trials undergo formal measurements of insulin sensitivity to evaluate
effects of therapy on this parameter independent of effects on the beta-
cell, the sample size must be sufficient to determine an effect if
present. Finally, one could speculate that it is possible that subsets of
people with mild manifestations of the type 1 autoimmune disease process
could benefit from treatments aimed at improving the insulin-resistant
state. Copyright 2002 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

Diabetes Metab. 2001 Sep;27(4 Pt 2):S19-25.

Puberty is characterised by important physiological and hormonal changes.
In type 1 diabetes, abnormalities in the growth hormone/insulin-like
growth factor-1 (GH/IGF-1) axis play a important role. Spontaneous hyper-
GH secretion arises, with reduced circulating IGF-1 levels, both leading
to a reduction in insulin sensitivity. From a clinical point of view,
these abnormalities are linked to a deterioration glycaemic control,
often more marked in females (in whom the degree of insulin resistance
during puberty seems to be higher). These abnormalities in the GH/IGF-1
axis in may constitute a risk for the development of microangiopathic
complications. Optimisation of insulin therapy has practical limitations
and intensification of insulin therapy poses problems (weight gain,
nocturnal hypoglycaemia). Several alternative therapeutic approaches have
been explored to restore insulin sensitivity, either through a direct
effect on the GH/IGF-1 axis, or through drugs with a direct insulin
sensitivity effect, but all these approaches remain to be confirmed and
the safety and acceptability of these treatments to be established on a
long-term basis.

Diabetes Obes Metab. 2007 Jan;9(1):143-5

AIM: As many overweight people with T1DM are insulin resistant, adjuvant
therapy with insulin sensitising agents, such as metformin, may be
beneficial. This study evaluated the effect of adjuvant metformin in T1DM
on insulin sensitivity, diabetic control, body composition, quality of
life (QOL) and treatment satisfaction. MATERIALS AND METHODS: A 3-month
prospective open-labelled pilot study of 16 patients aged 18-40 with T1DM
and body mass index (BMI) >25 kg/m(2) was performed. The patients
received 500-850 mg metformin twice daily. Insulin sensitivity, assessed
by a frequently sampled intravenous glucose tolerance test [n=5], body
composition, HbA(1c) and quality of life (QOL) were measured before and
after treatment. A retrospective review of 30 patients with T1DM treated
with metformin for at least 4 months was also performed. BMI, HbA(1c) and
insulin requirements during metformin treatment was compared to pre-
metformin data, and to patients treated with insulin only. RESULTS: In
the pilot study, insulin sensitivity increased significantly from 0.86
+/- 0.33 x 10(-4)/min/(microU/ml) to 1.17 +/- 0.48 x 10(-4)/min/
(microU/ml) after 3 months adjuvant therapy (p = 0.043). This was
associated with a decreased insulin requirement and mean daily blood
glucose. There were no significant changes in HbA(1c) or body
composition. QOL significantly improved (p < 0.002). The retrospective
review revealed an initial reduction in HbA(1c) (0.8 +/- 1.4%, p =
0.001). This effect diminished with prolonged treatment. BMI decreased in
patients remaining on metformin for a 2-year period (0.5 +/- 0.5kg/m(2),
p = 0.042). CONCLUSION: Adjuvant metformin can improve QOL, insulin
sensitivity and glycaemic control in overweight adults with T1DM.

Arq Bras Endocrinol Metabol. 2006 Apr;50(2):250-63. Epub 2006 May 23

Insulin resistance (IR) plays a larger role in the type 1 diabetes
mellitus (T1DM) disease process than commonly recognized. Overweight and
physical inactivity have increased steadily for the last 20-30 years in
children and adolescents in many populations, concurrently with a rising
incidence of T1DM. The role of IR in T1DM has only recently been gaining
acceptance. This review will focus on how IR influences our current
understanding of disease development and metabolic syndrome (MS) in T1DM.
Increases in IR by weight gain and sedentarism, associated to decreased
beta cell mass by autoimmune process, may disrupt normoglycemia in pre-
T1DM individuals. IR may reflect a more aggressive form of autoimmune
disease mediated by immuno-inflammatory factors that also mediate beta
cell destruction (TNF-alpha and IL-6). These concepts are included in the
"accelerator hypothesis". Moreover, family history of T2DM and chronic
hyperglycemia (glucotoxicity), occurring after T1DM diagnosis, contribute
to decrease peripheral glucose uptake. The onset of diabetic nephropathy
(DN) might also contribute to IR and metabolic syndrome (MS) via low-
grade inflammation and increased oxidative stress. MS is found between 12
to 40% in T1DM, especially in patients with advanced DN and poor glycemic
control. These findings have therapeutic and cardiovascular prognostic
implications as children make the transition toward adolescence and young
adulthood T1DM.


Diabetes Care. 2005 Jul;28(7):1562-7.Click here to read

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the safety and effectiveness of rosiglitazone in
the treatment of overweight subjects with type 1 diabetes. RESEARCH
DESIGN AND METHODS: A total of 50 adult type 1 diabetic subjects with a
baseline BMI > or =27 kg/m(2) were randomly assigned in a double-blind
fashion to take insulin and placebo (n = 25) or insulin and rosiglitazone
4 mg twice daily (n = 25) for a period of 8 months. Insulin regimen and
dosage were modified in all subjects to achieve near-normal glycemic
control. RESULTS: Both groups experienced a significant reduction in HbA
(1c) (A1C) level (rosiglitazone: 7.9 +/- 1.3 to 6.9 +/- 0.7%, P < 0.0001;
placebo: 7.7 +/- 0.8 to 7.0 +/- 0.9%, P = 0.002) and a significant
increase in weight (rosiglitazone: 97.2 +/- 11.8 to 100.6 +/- 16.0 kg, P
= 0.008; placebo: 96.4 +/- 12.2 to 99.1 +/- 15.0, P = 0.016). Baseline
measures of BMI (P = 0.001), total daily insulin dose (P = 0.002), total
cholesterol (P = 0.005), HDL cholesterol (P = 0.001), and LDL cholesterol
(P = 0.02) were predictors of improvement in A1C level only in the group
treated with rosiglitazone. Total daily insulin dose increased in
subjects taking placebo (74.0 +/- 33.8 to 82.0 +/- 48.9 units, P < 0.05
baseline vs. week 32), but it decreased slightly in subjects taking
rosiglitazone (77.5 +/- 28.6 to 75.3 +/- 33.1 units). Both systolic blood
pressure (137.4 +/- 15.6 vs. 128.8 +/- 14.8 mmHg, baseline vs. week 32, P
< 0.02) and diastolic blood pressure (87.2 +/- 9.4 vs. 79.4 +/- 7.2 mmHg,
P < 0.0001) improved in the group treated with rosiglitazone. The total
incidence of hypoglycemia did not differ between groups. CONCLUSIONS:
Rosiglitazone in combination with insulin resulted in improved glycemic
control and blood pressure without an increase in insulin requirements,
compared with insulin- and placebo-treated subjects, whose improved
glycemic control required an 11% increase in insulin dose. Weight gain
and hypoglycemia were similar in both groups at the end of the study. The
greatest effect of rosiglitazone occurred in subjects with more
pronounced markers of insulin resistance.
--
-------
Charly Coughran
ccoughran@DELETE-TO-RESPOND-UCSD.EDU
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-15-2008, 02:42 AM
willbill
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

Nicky wrote:

> On Mon, 12 May 2008 23:50:13 -0500, willbill wrote:


>> Màck©® wrote:


>>> On Sat, 10 May 2008 22:15:58 -0500, willbill wrote:


>>>> sorry quentin, i've no clue about ACE
>>>> and possible reduction of insulin resistance,
>>>> since i'm a t1 and don't suffer from
>>>> insulin resistance


>>> that doesn't mean other type 1s don't have to deal with
>>> insulin resistance.


>> kindly provide an approximate percentage
>> of type 1s that do have insulin resistance
>>
>> and give a cite/site while you're at it


> Surely all you T1s get it as you get older?



no we don't

at least, i haven't, and it's clear
to me, from t1 Màck©®'s cute response,
that he doesn't suffer from IR either

you have to read t1 coughran's response
(to me) carefully, to understand that t1's who
have insulin resistance (IR) are a minority
(well less than 49%) of the total t1 population

fwiw, my hunch is that t1 coughran also
does not suffer from insulin resistance
(but i don't know that for sure)

it remains unclear to me, just what percent
of the total t1 population suffers from IR

fwiw, already my own doc is suggesting
t2 pills to me!! confirming to me, that
while docs do a lot of reading, they
aren't that smart at seeing the forest
(i am a very good system analayst, and see
the forest just fine)


bill t1 since '57


p.s. for definitions of IR and other
terms (in t1 coughran's response),
www.wikipedia.org is your friend

fwiw, my '08 Britannica has this quote:

<"It seems likely that there are two distinct
causes for IDDM and NIDDM. A genetic factor
appears to be more important in NIDDM, since
analysis of a large series of identical twins
has shown a concordance (the appearance of the
trait) in both twins of more than 90 percent
for NIDDM, while in IDDM the rate is about
50 percent. This relatively low incidence of the
disease among the identical twins of insulin-dependent
diabetics suggests that other factors are important.">


> I'm assuming that it's a
> big part of the 20% less calories needed as a woman goes through
> menopause - a purely age-related thing, as our bodies get less
> efficient.
>
> Nicky.
> T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
> D&E, 100ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-15-2008, 09:46 AM
Màck©®
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

On Wed, 14 May 2008 19:23:47 -0500, willbill <trek@worldwide.net>
wrote:

>
>no we don't
>
>at least, i haven't, and it's clear
>to me, from t1 Màck©®'s cute response,
>that he doesn't suffer from IR either



so my endo lied to me?

--
Måck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"
http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/


"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:05 AM
willbill
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

Màck©® wrote:

> On Wed, 14 May 2008 19:23:47 -0500, willbill wrote:


>> and it's clear
>> to me, from t1 Màck©®'s cute response,
>> that he doesn't suffer from IR either



> so my endo lied to me?




so what drug(s) does he have
you taking for that?


bill t1 since '57
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:05 AM
Màck©®
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

On Fri, 16 May 2008 01:52:29 -0500, willbill <trek@worldwide.net>
wrote:

>Màck©® wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 14 May 2008 19:23:47 -0500, willbill wrote:

>
>>> and it's clear
>>> to me, from t1 Màck©®'s cute response,
>>> that he doesn't suffer from IR either

>
>
>> so my endo lied to me?

>
>
>
>so what drug(s) does he have
>you taking for that?
>
>
>bill t1 since '57



you really are a nutball.

Insulin, fool.

--
Måck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"
http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/


"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:05 AM
Chuck
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

On May 10, 3:56�am, Quentin Grady <quen...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

> Has there been significant human studies since?


Yes, ARB's do the same. These meds also have antioxidant and
antiinflammatory properties... also possible reduction in
adipogenesis. If you are diabetic with hypertension you want to be on
one of these two, not a beta-blocker, et al (unless there is a heart
(the actual organ) reason).
CB

Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-16-2008, 06:54 PM
Trinkwasser
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

On Fri, 16 May 2008 02:00:09 -0700 (PDT), Chuck <ShorThing7@aol.com>
wrote:

>On May 10, 3:56?am, Quentin Grady <quen...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
>> Has there been significant human studies since?

>
>Yes, ARB's do the same. These meds also have antioxidant and
>antiinflammatory properties... also possible reduction in
>adipogenesis. If you are diabetic with hypertension you want to be on
>one of these two, not a beta-blocker, et al (unless there is a heart
>(the actual organ) reason).


One of the relevant studies was DREAM which compared Ramipril (ACE)
and Rosiglitazone on prediabetics

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...94208/abstract

et al.

somehow I have obtained pdfs of some of the papers
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-16-2008, 09:12 PM
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

Jefferson wrote:
> Quentin Grady wrote:
>
> > G'day G'day Folks,
> >
> > I came across a magazine article suggesting that ACE inhibitors could
> > have significant effects making marked reductions in insulin
> > resistance and all sorts of other ways. The good news is that ACE
> > inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well
> > known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com
> >
> > Indeed there was some rodent research suggesting that ACE inhibitors
> > could have that virtue. The research though was 2002.
> >
> > Has there been significant human studies since?
> >

> Scholar.google works better for specific ACE inhibitors.
> "insulin resistance"+ramipril: 4,490 finds - http://tinyurl.com/6hs7ex.
> Using advanced scholar.google resulted in 2,820 finds from 2003 to 2008
> - http://tinyurl.com/5qahgu.
> By adding diabetes to the advanced search there were still 2,730 finds -
> http://tinyurl.com/5hduhm.
>
> One of those finds was "Adiponectin and adiponectin receptors in insulin
> resistance, diabetes, and the metabolic syndrome" -
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1483172
>
> (Adiponectin secretion occurs from fat cells and a higher level is
> associated with less insulin resistance. Adiponectin also exists in 3
> forms of which the higher density form is the most active. Weight
> reduction helps to increase adiponectin levels.


Specifically, it is VAT (black fat) loss that increases adiponectin
levels.

Adiponectin does make us hungrier.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be euglycemic...

Prayerfully in the awesome name of LORD Jesus Christ,

Andrew <><
--
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...8812d72ab4e17?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-16-2008, 09:12 PM
willbill
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

Màck©® wrote:

> On Fri, 16 May 2008 01:52:29 -0500, willbill wrote:


>> Màck©® wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 14 May 2008 19:23:47 -0500, willbill wrote:


>>>> and it's clear
>>>> to me, from t1 Màck©®'s cute response,
>>>> that he doesn't suffer from IR either


>>> so my endo lied to me?


>> so what drug(s) does he have
>> you taking for that?
>>
>> bill t1 since '57



> you really are a nutball.
>
> Insulin, fool.



ah, so your endo has told you that
you have IR (Insulin Resistance),
but you still only take insulin?

that's more than a little hard to believe

imo, you've got serious mental problems

and you almost never provide any useful
info, and/or links, when prompted
for those

plonk!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-17-2008, 05:55 AM
Quentin Grady
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

On Fri, 16 May 2008 02:00:09 -0700 (PDT), Chuck <ShorThing7@aol.com>
wrote:

>On May 10, 3:56?am, Quentin Grady <quen...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
>> Has there been significant human studies since?

>
>Yes, ARB's do the same. These meds also have antioxidant and
>antiinflammatory properties... also possible reduction in
>adipogenesis. If you are diabetic with hypertension you want to be on
>one of these two, not a beta-blocker, et al (unless there is a heart
>(the actual organ) reason).
>CB


Thanks Chuck. Although the research I saw quoted was on mice the
results were impressive and worth considering.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-17-2008, 09:48 AM
Chuck
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

> Thanks Chuck. �Although the research I saw quoted was on mice the
> results were impressive and worth considering.
>
> Best wishes,
> --
> Quentin Grady � � �


You are welcome. There are now plenty of studies in humans on this
subject. I'm fortunate that I have a job where I have to keep my nose
in the medical research journals. In addition, I have a family history
of diabetes and predilection myself towards metabolic syndrome. I take
low dose Micardis (ARB) and Red Yeast Rice (OTC statin cholesterol
reducer) with good results. (exercise like crazy and watch my diet, of
course). No doubt that breaking that cycle of inflammation, oxidation,
glycation....... is important in diabetes. ACE's or ARB's (I prefer
ARB's) can be a key part of that. Glad to have helped.
CB
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-17-2008, 02:09 PM
Màck©®
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

On Fri, 16 May 2008 15:04:32 -0500, willbill <trek@worldwide.net>
wrote:

>
>plonk!



please, someone tell me this is actually true.

--
Måck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/type1and2/
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"
http://www.ratbags.com/dechunging/


"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-18-2008, 10:07 AM
Quentin Grady
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

On Sat, 17 May 2008 01:22:10 -0700 (PDT), Chuck <ShorThing7@aol.com>
wrote:

>> Thanks Chuck. ?Although the research I saw quoted was on mice the
>> results were impressive and worth considering.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> --
>> Quentin Grady ? ? ?

>
>You are welcome. There are now plenty of studies in humans on this
>subject. I'm fortunate that I have a job where I have to keep my nose
>in the medical research journals.


G'day G'day Chuck,

I can appreciate what a privilege that must be. My job enables me
to read New Scientist in the tertiary institute library. Now that is
not the same as having access to medical journals.

>In addition, I have a family history
>of diabetes and predilection myself towards metabolic syndrome. I take
>low dose Micardis (ARB) and Red Yeast Rice (OTC statin cholesterol
>reducer) with good results. (exercise like crazy and watch my diet, of
>course). No doubt that breaking that cycle of inflammation, oxidation,
>glycation....... is important in diabetes. ACE's or ARB's (I prefer
>ARB's) can be a key part of that. Glad to have helped.
>CB


I'm told ARBs are an improvement but more expensive.

Best wishes and thanks.
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-18-2008, 11:28 AM
Chris Malcolm
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

Trinkwasser <spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 May 2008 19:56:20 +1200, Quentin Grady
> <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:


>>
>>G'day G'day Folks,
>>
>> I came across a magazine article suggesting that ACE inhibitors could
>>have significant effects making marked reductions in insulin
>>resistance and all sorts of other ways. The good news is that ACE
>>inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well
>>known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com
>>
>>Indeed there was some rodent research suggesting that ACE inhibitors
>>could have that virtue. The research though was 2002.
>>
>>Has there been significant human studies since?


> I've seen it mentioned in several papers which I've downloaded as pdfs
> and am now reading/rereading, also with ARBs but the effect is
> generally small, as with a lot of other things a fraction of what you
> can achieve through diet and exercise


I guess until they come up with an exercise pill we'll just have to go
on using our muscles. They don't seem to having much success with the
diet pill either, so we'll just have to go on watching what we
eat. They do seem to have a good bit of success with pills for having
fun. Shame that most of them are illegal :-)

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-18-2008, 07:08 PM
Trinkwasser
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Ace inhibitors and insulin resistance

On 18 May 2008 11:02:48 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
wrote:

>Trinkwasser <spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 May 2008 19:56:20 +1200, Quentin Grady
>> <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>
>>>
>>>G'day G'day Folks,
>>>
>>> I came across a magazine article suggesting that ACE inhibitors could
>>>have significant effects making marked reductions in insulin
>>>resistance and all sorts of other ways. The good news is that ACE
>>>inhibitors have been around for a while so their side effects are well
>>>known. To find out more I decided to look up scholar.google.com
>>>
>>>Indeed there was some rodent research suggesting that ACE inhibitors
>>>could have that virtue. The research though was 2002.
>>>
>>>Has there been significant human studies since?

>
>> I've seen it mentioned in several papers which I've downloaded as pdfs
>> and am now reading/rereading, also with ARBs but the effect is
>> generally small, as with a lot of other things a fraction of what you
>> can achieve through diet and exercise

>
>I guess until they come up with an exercise pill we'll just have to go
>on using our muscles. They don't seem to having much success with the
>diet pill either, so we'll just have to go on watching what we
>eat. They do seem to have a good bit of success with pills for having
>fun. Shame that most of them are illegal :-)


And becoming more so.

The nearest equivalent to an exercise pill I suppose would be
metformin - or if it works as it does for me ALA - which causes the
same amount of exercise to have more effect.

For diet pill you can simply substitute diet . . .
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
INSULIN RESISTANCE rickh alt.support.diabetes 26 01-25-2008 11:29 AM
insulin resistance markgill alt.support.diabetes 12 09-29-2007 08:31 PM
Re: Insulin resistance & Downregulation? Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD alt.support.diabetes 25 08-27-2007 04:07 PM
does L-arginine increase insulin or reduce insulin resistance? dumbfishie99@yahoo.com alt.support.diabetes 22