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  #1  
Old 02-19-2007, 12:26 AM
Alan Moorman@visi.com
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Default Another link for carbohydrate information



http://www.medical-library.net/sites...nutrition.html

This is another overview which is a bit more specific than
some.

It mentions that, while there are no known necessary
carbohydrates, it is desirable to eat some complex
carbohydrates which are high in fiber.




Alan Moorman

The only reason some people get lost in thought
is because it's unfamiliar territory.

Paul Fix

=================================
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  #2  
Old 02-19-2007, 12:26 AM
Alan S
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Another link for carbohydrate information

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:06:27 -0600, Alan Moorman@visi.com
wrote:

>
>
>http://www.medical-library.net/sites...nutrition.html
>
>This is another overview which is a bit more specific than
>some.
>
>It mentions that, while there are no known necessary
>carbohydrates, it is desirable to eat some complex
>carbohydrates which are high in fiber.
>
>
>
>
>Alan Moorman


Interesting. Did you notice this towards the end:

"Adult onset diabetes is known to be greatly benefited by
the adoption of a low carbohydrate diet, moderate in fat,
which stresses the importance of a regular intake of
sufficient protein. You will not hear this advice from the
American Diabetes Association, (or from most doctors) since
they are still operating on the research as it was twenty
years ago."
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus
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  #3  
Old 02-19-2007, 12:26 AM
Alan Moorman@visi.com
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Another link for carbohydrate information

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:21:02 +1100, Alan S
<loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:06:27 -0600, Alan Moorman@visi.com
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>http://www.medical-library.net/sites...nutrition.html
>>
>>This is another overview which is a bit more specific than
>>some.
>>
>>It mentions that, while there are no known necessary
>>carbohydrates, it is desirable to eat some complex
>>carbohydrates which are high in fiber.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Alan Moorman

>
>Interesting. Did you notice this towards the end:
>
>"Adult onset diabetes is known to be greatly benefited by
>the adoption of a low carbohydrate diet, moderate in fat,
>which stresses the importance of a regular intake of
>sufficient protein. You will not hear this advice from the
>American Diabetes Association, (or from most doctors) since
>they are still operating on the research as it was twenty
>years ago."
>Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
>d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
>Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.


I was thrilled to read that! :-)

My diet is fairly high in protein, and medium-low in fat.
While I eat enough green veggies to be healthful, I too
often eat a baking potato, or some pasta.

I've often felt guilty about the amount of protein I eat
(very lean beef, pork or chicken) but now, I feel more
secure in knowing that the protein is probably A Good Thing!

Alan Moorman

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  #4  
Old 02-19-2007, 02:24 AM
Gantlet
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Another link for carbohydrate information



--
Tom

www.TomsDiabeticDiary.com
"Alan S" <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jpnht21vv1rd38ijcask073ivkthrlro60@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:06:27 -0600, Alan Moorman@visi.com
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>http://www.medical-library.net/sites...nutrition.html
>>
>>This is another overview which is a bit more specific than
>>some.
>>
>>It mentions that, while there are no known necessary
>>carbohydrates, it is desirable to eat some complex
>>carbohydrates which are high in fiber.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Alan Moorman

>
> Interesting. Did you notice this towards the end:
>
> "Adult onset diabetes is known to be greatly benefited by
> the adoption of a low carbohydrate diet, moderate in fat,
> which stresses the importance of a regular intake of
> sufficient protein. You will not hear this advice from the
> American Diabetes Association, (or from most doctors) since
> they are still operating on the research as it was twenty
> years ago."


only if you dont count the millions in research in the last 20 years.
they did invest 18 million in 1999 and 40 million in research in the real
2005 alone. how much did bernstien spend on studies? o i forgot .. he
bought a blood sugar meter.

to learn more about how the American Diabetes Association is helping you.
http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-res...earch-home.jsp




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  #5  
Old 02-19-2007, 02:24 AM
ray
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Another link for carbohydrate information

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 02:00:20 +0000, Gantlet wrote:

>>
>> Interesting. Did you notice this towards the end:
>>
>> "Adult onset diabetes is known to be greatly benefited by
>> the adoption of a low carbohydrate diet, moderate in fat,
>> which stresses the importance of a regular intake of
>> sufficient protein. You will not hear this advice from the
>> American Diabetes Association, (or from most doctors) since
>> they are still operating on the research as it was twenty
>> years ago."

>
> only if you dont count the millions in research in the last 20 years.
> they did invest 18 million in 1999 and 40 million in research in the real
> 2005 alone. how much did bernstien spend on studies? o i forgot .. he
> bought a blood sugar meter.
>
> to learn more about how the American Diabetes Association is helping you.
> http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-res...earch-home.jsp


No offense, but I've been to their web site looking for useful information
from time to time, and I don't find them 'helping' me very much.

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  #6  
Old 02-19-2007, 03:46 AM
Kurt
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Another link for carbohydrate information

On Feb 18, 6:00�pm, "Gantlet" <T...@TomsDiabeticDiary.com> wrote:
> --
> Tom
>
> www.TomsDiabeticDiary.com"Alan S" <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrotein message
>
> news:jpnht21vv1rd38ijcask073ivkthrlro60@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:06:27 -0600, Alan Moor...@visi.com
> > wrote:

>
> >>http://www.medical-library.net/sites.../carbohydrates...

>
> >>This is another overview which is a bit more specific than
> >>some.

>
> >>It mentions that, while there are no known necessary
> >>carbohydrates, it is desirable to eat some complex
> >>carbohydrates which are high in fiber.

>
> >>Alan Moorman

>
> > Interesting. Did you notice this towards the end:

>
> > "Adult onset diabetes is known to be greatly benefited by
> > the adoption of a low carbohydrate diet, moderate in fat,
> > which stresses the importance of a regular intake of
> > sufficient protein. You will not hear this advice from the
> > American Diabetes Association, (or from most doctors) since
> > they are still operating on the research as it was twenty
> > years ago."

>
> only if you dont count the millions in research in the last 20 years.
> they did invest 18 million in 1999 and 40 million in research in the real
> 2005 alone. how much did bernstien spend on studies? *o i forgot .. he
> bought a blood sugar meter.
>
> to learn more about how the American Diabetes Association is helping you.http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-res...arch-home.jsp- Hide quoted text -
>


Some people want so desperately to believe the ADA and doctors in
general are 20 years behind the time that they will say it, and quote
it, whenever they can in hopes that purely seculative allegation will
become fact. We all know why they do that.

Kurt

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  #7  
Old 02-19-2007, 07:20 PM
Alan S
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Another link for carbohydrate information

On 18 Feb 2007 18:37:14 -0800, "Kurt"
<kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>Some people want so desperately to believe the ADA and doctors in
>general are 20 years behind the time that they will say it, and quote
>it, whenever they can in hopes that purely seculative allegation will
>become fact. We all know why they do that.
>
>Kurt


We do? Is there a conspiracy here that I've missed? Or that
I'm part of?

Amplify please.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus
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  #8  
Old 02-19-2007, 07:20 PM
DonnaB shallotpeel
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Another link for carbohydrate information

In alt.support.diabetes on Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:26:11 +1100 in Msg.#
<3l9it2ll8al5bu2s699au8ud8pfmbp8iai@4ax.com>, Alan S
<loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote:

> We do? Is there a conspiracy here that I've missed? Or that
> I'm part of?
>
> Amplify please.


What? You want him to turn it up to ... [wait for it] ... 11?

LOL

--
DonnaB
06-07-06 Diagnosis T2 hbA1C 8.1, D&E & Metformin 500mg.
...................09-11-06 hbA1C 5.0
...................12-20-06 hbA1C 5.2
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  #9  
Old 02-19-2007, 07:20 PM
Gantlet
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Another link for carbohydrate information



"ray" <ray@zianet.com> wrote in message
newsan.2007.02.19.02.19.22.159336@zianet.com...
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 02:00:20 +0000, Gantlet wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Interesting. Did you notice this towards the end:
>>>
>>> "Adult onset diabetes is known to be greatly benefited by
>>> the adoption of a low carbohydrate diet, moderate in fat,
>>> which stresses the importance of a regular intake of
>>> sufficient protein. You will not hear this advice from the
>>> American Diabetes Association, (or from most doctors) since
>>> they are still operating on the research as it was twenty
>>> years ago."

>>
>> only if you dont count the millions in research in the last 20 years.
>> they did invest 18 million in 1999 and 40 million in research in the real
>> 2005 alone. how much did bernstien spend on studies? o i forgot .. he
>> bought a blood sugar meter.
>>
>> to learn more about how the American Diabetes Association is helping you.
>> http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-res...earch-home.jsp

>
> No offense, but I've been to their web site looking for useful information
> from time to time, and I don't find them 'helping' me very much



No offense taken - after reading your posts I am well aware of just how much
you know about diabetes.

--
Tom

www.TomsDiabeticDiary.com


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  #10  
Old 02-19-2007, 07:20 PM
Alan S
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Another link for carbohydrate information

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:20:06 GMT, "Gantlet"
<Tom@TomsDiabeticDiary.com> wrote:

>>> to learn more about how the American Diabetes Association is helping you.
>>> http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-res...earch-home.jsp

>>
>> No offense, but I've been to their web site looking for useful information
>> from time to time, and I don't find them 'helping' me very much

>
>
>No offense taken - after reading your posts I am well aware of just how much
>you know about diabetes.


You've improved your insult literacy Tom. I'm impressed. Of
course, ambiguity is a two-edged sword.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus
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  #11  
Old 02-19-2007, 07:21 PM
Chris Malcolm
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Another link for carbohydrate information

In alt.support.diabetes Kurt <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 18, 6:00???pm, "Gantlet" <T...@TomsDiabeticDiary.com> wrote:
>> www.TomsDiabeticDiary.com"Alan S" <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:jpnht21vv1rd38ijcask073ivkthrlro60@4ax.com...
>> > On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:06:27 -0600, Alan Moor...@visi.com
>> > wrote:


>> > Interesting. Did you notice this towards the end:

>>
>> > "Adult onset diabetes is known to be greatly benefited by
>> > the adoption of a low carbohydrate diet, moderate in fat,
>> > which stresses the importance of a regular intake of
>> > sufficient protein. You will not hear this advice from the
>> > American Diabetes Association, (or from most doctors) since
>> > they are still operating on the research as it was twenty
>> > years ago."

>>
>> only if you dont count the millions in research in the last 20 years.
>> they did invest 18 million in 1999 and 40 million in research in the real
>> 2005 alone.


It's the next step after that which they've failed to take, which is
to update the pages of general advice on their web site to reflect the
results of that research.

>> to learn more about how the American Diabetes Association is helping you.http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-res...arch-home.jsp- Hide quoted text -
>>


> Some people want so desperately to believe the ADA and doctors in
> general are 20 years behind the time that they will say it, and quote
> it, whenever they can in hopes that purely seculative allegation will
> become fact. We all know why they do that.


Yup, it's because their general blood sugar control advice specifies
higher BG control targets than those of the American Association of
Clinical Endocrinologists. In fact one of the reasons why AACE chose
to publish their own independent recommendations was, as they pointed
out, because they were unhappy with the ADA's high numbers. In the
light of recent research. Some of which, as Tom has pointed out, was
even funded by the ADA.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

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  #12  
Old 02-19-2007, 07:21 PM
rk
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Another link for carbohydrate information

"ray" <ray@zianet.com> wrote in message
newsan.2007.02.19.02.19.22.159336@zianet.com...
: On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 02:00:20 +0000, Gantlet wrote:
:
: >>
: >> Interesting. Did you notice this towards the end:
: >>
: >> "Adult onset diabetes is known to be greatly benefited by
: >> the adoption of a low carbohydrate diet, moderate in fat,
: >> which stresses the importance of a regular intake of
: >> sufficient protein. You will not hear this advice from the
: >> American Diabetes Association, (or from most doctors) since
: >> they are still operating on the research as it was twenty
: >> years ago."
: >
: > only if you dont count the millions in research in the last 20 years.
: > they did invest 18 million in 1999 and 40 million in research in the
real
: > 2005 alone. how much did bernstien spend on studies? o i forgot .. he
: > bought a blood sugar meter.
: >
: > to learn more about how the American Diabetes Association is helping
you.
: > http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-res...earch-home.jsp
:
: No offense, but I've been to their web site looking for useful information
: from time to time, and I don't find them 'helping' me very much.
:
thats comical. with your very limited understanding of DM, you could
tell the difference. keep helping the quack line his pockets instead of
those who actually attempt to find a cure and advocate for diabetics to
have a normal life in both the workplace and school.

--
Reisa, T1
dx-5/00 asd-7/00
Animas IR1250 pumper
Daily CHO: 150-200gm
TDD: 36-38u
Last A1C: 6.1


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  #13  
Old 02-19-2007, 07:21 PM
Alan S
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Posts: n/a
Default Diabetes Research, Obfuscation and Carbs

Was: Another link for carbohydrate information

On 19 Feb 2007 12:14:27 GMT, Chris Malcolm
<cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote, replying to Kurt:

>>> only if you dont count the millions in research in the last 20 years.
>>> they did invest 18 million in 1999 and 40 million in research in the real
>>> 2005 alone.

>
>It's the next step after that which they've failed to take, which is
>to update the pages of general advice on their web site to reflect the
>results of that research.


Lets look at ADA-funded research for a moment.

It's not just a matter of updating web-sites correctly. It
can also be a matter of deliberate obfuscation and failing
to highlight unpopular results. Some of us get accused of
"ADA-hating" here. That would be really silly, to "hate"
such an important support organisation for diabetics - but
no organisation should be immune from criticism and
scrutiny. As an organisation becomes bigger and more likely
to affect the daily lives of those it supports such scrutiny
becomes not only necessary but critically essential.

I make no apologies for the length - I believe this to be
important. There are two aspects - important ADA-funded
dietary research and the possibility of deliberately
misleading comment on unpopular results for the funder.

There are several examples, but I'll choose Mary C Gannon's
research as illustrative.

A couple of years ago the ADA had a page on Mary C Gannon,
giving her background and qualifications and showing the
research that she was about to do. It was a complimentary
and interesting page, one of several featuring various
researchers.

That page disappeared about the time her 2004 paper on LoBAG
appeared:
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...ract/53/9/2375

The abstract said, in part:

"On the basis of our previous data, we designed a
high-protein/low-carbohydrate, weight-maintaining,
nonketogenic diet. Its effect on glucose control in people
with untreated type 2 diabetes was determined. We refer to
this as a low-biologically-available-glucose (LoBAG) diet.
<snip>
Thus, a LoBAG diet ingested for 5 weeks dramatically reduced
the circulating glucose concentration in people with
untreated type 2 diabetes. Potentially, this could be a
patient-empowering way to ameliorate hyperglycemia without
pharmacological intervention. The long-term effects of such
a diet remain to be determined."

It was a study on a small population, obviously a pilot, so
further study was needed.

A search for "Gannon" of the ADA web-site finds few
references now, apart from LoBAG, simply inclusions in
lists:
The grants review committee:
http://www.diabetes.org/uedocuments/...sMarch2006.pdf
the 2004 and 2005 Research awards:
http://www.diabetes.org/uedocuments/...sBookFINAL.pdf
http://www.diabetes.org/uedocuments/Research.pdf

The LoBAG gets a mention:
http://tinyurl.com/22oqtl or
http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-res...otein-diet.jsp
But that's not the paper. Instead it is an ADA "summary"
titled "The Effects of a High-Protein, Low-Carb Diet".
It does include a url link, not to the original paper but to
a follow-up.

The concluding statement in that abstract is:

"The lack of negative effects, improved glucose control, and
a positive nitrogen balance suggest beneficial effects for
subjects with type 2 diabetes mellitus at risk for loss of
lean body mass."

Since then she, usually together Frank Q. Nuttall and fellow
researchers, has published further papers following on from
the inital LoBAG paper:

LoBAG30 (the number refers to the carb%)
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...act/291/4/E786
"Overall, the lack of negative effects, the improved glucose
control, and the positive nitrogen balance suggest such a
diet will be beneficial for older subjects with type 2
diabetes."

And lately (I may start a separate thread on this one,
possibly we've already discussed it?):

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1475800
Control of blood glucose in type 2 diabetes without weight
loss by modification of diet composition

"Results

We determined that, of the carbohydrates present in the
diet, absorbed glucose is largely responsible for the
food-induced increase in blood glucose concentration. We
also determined that dietary protein increases insulin
secretion and lowers blood glucose. Fat does not
significantly affect blood glucose, but can affect insulin
secretion and modify the absorption of carbohydrates. Based
on these data, we tested the efficacy of diets with various
protein:carbohydrate:fat ratios for 5 weeks on blood glucose
control in people with untreated type 2 diabetes. The
results were compared to those obtained in the same subjects
after 5 weeks on a control diet with a
protein:carbohydrate:fat ratio of 15:55:30. A 30:40:30 ratio
diet resulted in a moderate but significant decrease in
24-hour integrated glucose area and % total glycohemoglobin
(%tGHb). A 30:20:50 ratio diet resulted in a 38% decrease in
24-hour glucose area, a reduction in fasting glucose to near
normal and a decrease in %tGHb from 9.8% to 7.6%. The
response to a 30:30:40 ratio diet was similar.

Conclusion
Altering the diet composition could be a patient-empowering
method of improving the hyperglycemia of type 2 diabetes
without weight loss or pharmacologic intervention."

If you've read this far, you may have come to the same
conclusion as I did in reading Gannon's papers. This
ADA-funded research would seem to show some significant
benefits for diabetics by reducing the carb proportion of
diets without any negative consequences discovered to date.
Further study is definitely needed - but the results are
sufficiently different to those promoted by the ADA that one
would think some enthusiasm for that research would be
evident in the ADA report.

So, go back and read the ADA report again. I know you didn't
click on the link the first time, so here it is again:
http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-res...otein-diet.jsp

And this is what they stated are the implications of the
study:

"The amount of fat and carbohydrates in a person's diet does
not appear to have an effect on metabolism. Increasing the
levels of protein in a person's diet causes changes in the
body that are not well understood and need more research."

And that's the positive bit.

Hang on - what happened to improved glucose control?
Patient-empowering? Reduction in fasting glucose to near
normal? A drop in A1c?

Where is the ADA report on that latest paper?

I can see no other way to view that "summary" than as a
deliberate attempt to bury the results. I sincerely hope
that I am wrong, and I'll be happy to eat humble pie and
apologise if anyone can advise me that the ADA are diverting
serious funding to Gannon, Nuttall et al to expand the study
into a major one to follow up such a promising line of
research.

I'm ever the optimist - but always the skeptic.
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus
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  #14  
Old 02-19-2007, 07:21 PM
Noway2
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Diabetes Research, Obfuscation and Carbs

Alan S wrote:
<Message snipped for brevity>
>
> So, go back and read the ADA report again. I know you didn't
> click on the link the first time, so here it is again:
> http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-res...otein-diet.jsp
>
> And this is what they stated are the implications of the
> study:
>
> "The amount of fat and carbohydrates in a person's diet does
> not appear to have an effect on metabolism. Increasing the
> levels of protein in a person's diet causes changes in the
> body that are not well understood and need more research."
>
> And that's the positive bit.
>
> Hang on - what happened to improved glucose control?
> Patient-empowering? Reduction in fasting glucose to near
> normal? A drop in A1c?
>
> Where is the ADA report on that latest paper?
>
> I can see no other way to view that "summary" than as a
> deliberate attempt to bury the results. I sincerely hope
> that I am wrong, and I'll be happy to eat humble pie and
> apologise if anyone can advise me that the ADA are diverting
> serious funding to Gannon, Nuttall et al to expand the study
> into a major one to follow up such a promising line of
> research.
>
> I'm ever the optimist - but always the skeptic.
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
> --
> http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
> http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
> latest: Epidaurus


I suspect in order to understand what is going on here, one needs to
follow the money. There continuous to be a tremendous push towards
grain based diet guidelines, even though more and more research is
showing that this is a bad approach for much of the human population.

I suspect that a lot of it has to do with big corporation economics and
politics, at least in the USA. Look at the farm subsidies which pay
huge mega-corporations billions of tax payer dollars to produce corn
which gets turned into the cheapest form of sugar known (high fructose
corn syrup) which in turn winds up in damned near every product in most
grocery stores. The managerial brass of these corporations then pay
large sums of money to politicians who push for legislation, research
funding, etc in line with the goals of these corporations. On top of
that, figure head puppets get put in power positions in organizations
such as the FDA with their strings being pulled by these politicians and
corporations. The result, guidelines that influence how the medical
community think and operate...and so forth in a downward spiral.

This last weekend, I was reading an article that described how a similar
process helped push the widespread use of trans-fats. No surprise that
the trans-fats are largely made from our ol'buddy, corn (oil) again.

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  #15  
Old 02-19-2007, 07:21 PM
Gene
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Default Re: Another link for carbohydrate information

"Gantlet" <Tom@TomsDiabeticDiary.com> wrote in news:Uw7Ch.1975$lG6.1215
@trndny08:

>
>

I haven't had a potato for a year and a half.

I think that's a record for an Irishman.

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