Anybody had luck with a High Carb Plant based diet

Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.

There's alot of research showing this works, but almost everything I
read of real people in the real world practice just the opposite.(low
carb higher fat with a fair amount of meat)

This contradiction is quite odd and I wonder if there is something to
be learned from it.

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thanks
Randy F

randy@val.com <randy@val.com> wrote:
> Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.

> There's alot of research showing this works, but almost everything I
> read of real people in the real world practice just the opposite.(low
> carb higher fat with a fair amount of meat)

You'll have to tell us where all this research you mention is to be
found, since it's certainly not easy to find.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

On 23 Apr 2007 19:20:10 -0700, "randy@val.com"
<randy@val.com> wrote:

>Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>
Speaking for myself: No.

>There's alot of research showing this works,

References please.

> but almost everything I
>read of real people in the real world practice just the opposite.(low
>carb higher fat with a fair amount of meat)

No need for references there, but I can provide them if you
wish:-)
>
>This contradiction is quite odd and I wonder if there is something to
>be learned from it.
>
Yep - we can all learn from conflicting information by
testing it against the filter of your common sense.

>Any insight would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks
>Randy F

By "success", are you referring to weight loss or blood
glucose management BTW?


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Athens and The Adriatic

On Apr 23, 10:05 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 23 Apr 2007 19:20:10 -0700, "r...@val.com"
>
> <r...@val.com> wrote:
> >Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>
> Speaking for myself: No.
>
> >There's alot of research showing this works,
>
> References please.
Here's one from the British Medical Journal.
And there's lots more in peer reviewed scientific jounals.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1599386

Thanks
Randy Feingersh

On Apr 23, 8:44 pm, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>> You'll have to tell us where all this research you mention is to be
> found, since it's certainly not easy to find.

Here's one and there's lots more on PUB MED

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1599386

Still confused.

Randy Feingersh

On Apr 23, 8:20 pm, "r...@val.com" <r...@val.com> wrote:
> Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>
> There's alot of research showing this works, but almost everything I
> read of real people in the real world practice just the opposite.(low
> carb higher fat with a fair amount of meat)
>
Here's another reference and believe there is lots more:
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abstract/23/1/5

Also SOME followers of Ornish and Pritikin have gooten some incredible
results

I cannot understand I can square what I read on this group with what
these guys are finding in research.
Once again if anyone can explain I would appreciate it.
I really think there is something to be learned here, but I don't know
what it is.

> Thanks
> Randy F

On Apr 23, 10:46?pm, "r...@val.com" <r...@val.com> wrote:
> On Apr 23, 8:20 pm, "r...@val.com" <r...@val.com> wrote:> Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>
> > There's alot of research showing this works, but almost everything I
> > read of real people in the real world practice just the opposite.(low
> > carb higher fat with a fair amount of meat)
>
> Here's another reference and believe there is lots more:http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abstract/23/1/5
>
> Also SOME followers of Ornish and Pritikin have gooten some incredible
> results
>
> I cannot understand I can square what I read on this group with what
> these guys are finding in research.
> Once again if anyone can explain I would appreciate it.
> I really think there is something to be learned here, but I don't know
> what it is.

Hi Randy,

Thanks for weighing in with yet one more approach and opinion about
dietary recommendations for diabetics. Many, no let me make that
most, here are convinced the only approach is low-carb.

The important thing is to keep an open mind and realize that everyone
has their own specific and particular needs when it comes to what diet
will work best. Two diabetics might not eat the same things at all,
yet they may both have excellent control. It really is an individual
thing and what I think is wrong is when one particular group pushes
their diet as being the one that will work for everyone. I think
everyone can agree that the ultimate goal is to find a diet that
yeilds good nutrition, tight control, and one that also satisfies. We
need to enjoy the food we eat!

The cites you found were interesting and give support to the thing you
are confused about. I can understand your confusion and you are
probably not alone when it comes to contradictory evidence in the diet
world. For every commercial diet one can find lots of links
supporting it and probably an equal number of links damning it. So,
what should one do in this tug of war and opposing clash of ideas? If
I had the answer to that I'd probably create my own diet and sell it
for millions!

My personal suggestion to anyone who bothers to ask my opinion on
things like this is to find a doctor they trust, preferably an endo
who specializes in diabetes and to work with them to determine what
their particular needs are.

The diet recommendations one reads in this newsgroup are based on
individuals who profess that they found something that works for
them. It is anecdotal and personal. Not that it should be dismissed,
but it should not be taken as gospel either. There are many variables
when it comes to what we need as diabetics and they involve how active
we are, how our body uses insulin (be it the insulin or bodies produce
or what some of us have to inject) and countless other factors that we
may not even be aware of. No one diet fits all. No one way is
necessarily better than another.

Thanks for your input, links, and alternate look at diets for
diabetics. Nice to see something different here for a change.

Kurt

On 23 Apr 2007 19:20:10 -0700, "randy@val.com" <randy@val.com> wrote:

>Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.

If your beta cells are struggling to deal with insulin resistance
caused by carrying a lot of weight and no other factors, losing
significant amounts of weight by any diet will help. If, however, your
beta cell mass has deteriorated beyond that point, a high carb diet is
just not going to be an option without medication to cope with the
carbs, which is not going to help with the weight. By diagnosis,
diabetics have lost half their beta cells, by definition. If you're
diabetic already, particularly if you suspect you've been that way for
a while, a low carb diet is likely to be a better way to go. There's
also the benefit that for many people, a low carb diet is a heck of a
lot easier to do, and doesn't risk putting extra strain on sick beta
cells.

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.5% BMI 25

"randy@val.com" <randy@val.com> wrote in news:1177393167.470748.87090
@r35g2000prh.googlegroups.com:

> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1599386

This sounds like worth giving it a try.

--
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty
than to those attending too small a degree of it." Thomas Jefferson

"History is earmarked by the successes of liberals and mistakes of
conservatives." - ETG

On 23 Apr 2007 22:46:33 -0700, "randy@val.com"
<randy@val.com> wrote:

>Also SOME followers of Ornish and Pritikin have gooten some incredible
>results

Excellent adjective "incredible":
http://tinyurl.com/yt7l7b
Main Entry: in·cred·i·ble
Pronunciation: (")in-'kre-d&-b&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin incredibilis, from in-
+ credibilis credible
1 : too extraordinary and improbable to be believed <making
incredible claims>

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Athens and The Adriatic

On 23 Apr 2007 22:36:46 -0700, "randy@val.com"
<randy@val.com> wrote:

>On Apr 23, 10:05 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 23 Apr 2007 19:20:10 -0700, "r...@val.com"
>>
>> <r...@val.com> wrote:
>> >Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>>
>> Speaking for myself: No.
>>
>> >There's alot of research showing this works,
>>
>> References please.
>Here's one from the British Medical Journal.
>And there's lots more in peer reviewed scientific jounals.
>
>http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1599386
>
>Thanks
>Randy Feingersh

See Nicky's reply. She says it so much better than I could.
Incidentally, "One" is not "lots".

This part intrigued me, it seems rather odd times to measure
BG's; obviously post-prandial numbers were of no interest to
them:

"Compared with their usual, low-carbohydrate diabetic diet
this diet resulted in a fall in basal plasma glucose
concentration (average of values measured at 0300, 0500, and
0700), mean preprandial plasma glucose concentration
(average of values measured at 0800, 1230, and 1730), and
percentage of glycosylated haemoglobin."

Here's "one":

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...ract/53/9/2375
"a LoBAG diet ingested for 5 weeks dramatically reduced the
circulating glucose concentration in people with untreated
type 2 diabetes. Potentially, this could be a
patient-empowering way to ameliorate hyperglycemia without
pharmacological intervention. The long-term effects of such
a diet remain to be determined."
A follow-up is at
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...act/291/4/E786

Of course, the one that mattered most to me had a sample
size of one - myself. I followed the high-carb low-fat route
as directed; it was a disaster for me. High A1c, highs and
hypos. Then I changed to the low-spike method detailed here:
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/NewlyDiagnosed.htm
It worked. Not low-carb, although I do eat less carbs, but
low-spike. Yes, I know, a contradictiion in terms - but them
I'm often contradictory.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Athens and The Adriatic

randy@val.com <randy@val.com> wrote:
> On Apr 23, 8:44 pm, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> You'll have to tell us where all this research you mention is to be
>> found, since it's certainly not easy to find.

> Here's one and there's lots more on PUB MED

> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1599386

If your diet was worse than this diet, which the diet of many
diabetics in the general population is, then this diet will improve
things for you. If your diet is better than this, which the diet of
some T2 posters here is, then this diet will make things worse for
you.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

On 23 Apr 2007 22:39:27 -0700, "randy@val.com"
<randy@val.com> wrote:

>On Apr 23, 8:44 pm, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> You'll have to tell us where all this research you mention is to be
>> found, since it's certainly not easy to find.
>
>Here's one and there's lots more on PUB MED
>
>http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1599386
>
>Still confused.
>
>Randy Feingersh

I had a look at this study.

Among many little difficulties, take a look at the menu for
a supposedly "low-carb" diet.
See the full text at
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...6&blobtype=pdf

Just as an example,

Breakfast (the carb numbers are mine, from DWIDB):
Item (Numbers in brackets are carbsw)
60gm White bread (29.7gm)
29gm (yeah, I'm sure it was measured:-) Butter 0gm
60gm Mandarins (6.7gms)
120ml milk (5gm)
10gm wheat crispbreads (8.2gm)

That's a total of nearly 50gms - and that's the low-carb
group. It gets worse later.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Athens and The Adriatic

On 23 Apr 2007 19:20:10 -0700, "randy@val.com" <randy@val.com> wrote:

>Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>

You could search for posts written to this group by Anil.

(I'm not sure if his diet is low-fat, but it's definitely plant-based
and he is in good control.)

--bittersweet

x-no-archive: yes

randy@val.com wrote:
> Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>
> There's alot of research showing this works, but almost everything I
> read of real people in the real world practice just the opposite.(low
> carb higher fat with a fair amount of meat)
>
> This contradiction is quite odd and I wonder if there is something to
> be learned from it.
>
> Any insight would be appreciated.

There's not a lot of research indicating it works when you examine the
criteria for alleged success.

Personally, I became severely IR and labile hypertensive on the Ornish
plan, and developed PCOS in my 30s on it. I improved, but remained IR
and hypoglycemic on the Zone diet, which favors massive amounts of plant
foods.

I'm able to control my DM with diet by low carbing; my diet remains
heavy on leafy and other high fiber plant foods, but no starches, and
includes plenty of protein and fat. I've lowered my lipids/CVD risk
profile and my blood pressure and bg this way.

Susan

On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:58:21 GMT, Alan S
<loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 23 Apr 2007 22:39:27 -0700, "randy@val.com"
> <randy@val.com> wrote:
>
> >On Apr 23, 8:44 pm, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>> You'll have to tell us where all this research you mention is to be
> >> found, since it's certainly not easy to find.
> >
> >Here's one and there's lots more on PUB MED
> >
> >http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1599386
> >
> >Still confused.
> >
> >Randy Feingersh
>
> I had a look at this study.
>
> Among many little difficulties, take a look at the menu for
> a supposedly "low-carb" diet.
> See the full text at
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...6&blobtype=pdf
>
> Just as an example,
>
> Breakfast (the carb numbers are mine, from DWIDB):
> Item (Numbers in brackets are carbsw)
> 60gm White bread (29.7gm)
> 29gm (yeah, I'm sure it was measured:-) Butter 0gm
> 60gm Mandarins (6.7gms)
> 120ml milk (5gm)
> 10gm wheat crispbreads (8.2gm)
>
> That's a total of nearly 50gms - and that's the low-carb
> group. It gets worse later.

Hey, Alan --

But that *is* low-carb if you compare it to most recommendations. I
had one program that I tried to use that wouldn't let me set my daily
carb intake goal to anything less than 150g.
--
BlueBrooke
T2/D&E/June 2005
A1c Oct 2006 -- 5.8
A1c Jul 2005 -- 6.8
Telling me it is true does not make it so.

Randy, I dont adhere to either belief. I believe in moderation and try
for a well balanced meal of protein vegetables and starches, of course
in small portions of the starches and the protein

Loretta

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:46:33 -0700, randy@val.com wrote:

> On Apr 23, 8:20 pm, "r...@val.com" <r...@val.com> wrote:
>> Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>>
>> There's alot of research showing this works, but almost everything I
>> read of real people in the real world practice just the opposite.(low
>> carb higher fat with a fair amount of meat)
>>
> Here's another reference and believe there is lots more:
> http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abstract/23/1/5
>
> Also SOME followers of Ornish and Pritikin have gooten some incredible
> results
>
> I cannot understand I can square what I read on this group with what
> these guys are finding in research.
> Once again if anyone can explain I would appreciate it.
> I really think there is something to be learned here, but I don't know
> what it is.

Suggest you read Dr. Richard Bernstein's "Diabetes Solution" for balance.


>
>> Thanks
>> Randy F

"Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:596di3F2ih4auU1@mid.individual.net...

> Personally, I became severely IR and labile hypertensive on the Ornish
> plan, and developed PCOS in my 30s on it. I improved, but remained IR and
> hypoglycemic on the Zone diet, which favors massive amounts of plant
> foods.
>
> I'm able to control my DM with diet by low carbing; my diet remains heavy
> on leafy and other high fiber plant foods, but no starches, and includes
> plenty of protein and fat. I've lowered my lipids/CVD risk profile and my
> blood pressure and bg this way.

At the time of my diagnosis, my diet was very much like Ornish. Perhaps not
exactly because I wasn't measuring things. But mostly plant based. A small
amount of cheese and eggs. Very low fat. High fiber. I got diabetes! Go
figure.

<randy@val.com> wrote in message
news:1177393167.470748.87090@r35g2000prh.googlegro ups.com...
> On Apr 23, 8:44 pm, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> You'll have to tell us where all this research you mention is to be
>> found, since it's certainly not easy to find.
>
> Here's one and there's lots more on PUB MED
>
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1599386
>
> Still confused.
>
Did you look at that so-called "low-carb" diet? I wonder how many low
carbers here have while bread, mashed potatoes, carrots, etc. as part of
their "low-carb" diet?

On Apr 24, 12:32 am, Kurt <kurtwheeling1...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for weighing in with yet one more approach and opinion about
> dietary recommendations for diabetics. Many, no let me make that
> most, here are convinced the only approach is low-carb.

Many here have decided that it works for them. It works for
me. Should I not share my experience ? Should others
not share their experience ? Are we making this stuff up ?
It's perfectly OK if low carb doesn't work for you ... it's
perfectly OK if it doesn't work for someone else. It works
for a lot of us and by definition it would be disingenuous to
not share that information with others. I don't "push" low
carb and it's very rare indeed to see a post here that is so
one sided and close minded as you seem to find in just
about every post.

>
> The important thing is to keep an open mind and realize that everyone
> has their own specific and particular needs when it comes to what diet
> will work best. Two diabetics might not eat the same things at all,
> yet they may both have excellent control.

Correct.

It really is an individual
> thing and what I think is wrong is when one particular group pushes
> their diet as being the one that will work for everyone.

OK. One example. What regular contributor here has
pushed their diet as being the one that will work for everyone ????

Just one example please.

I think
> everyone can agree that the ultimate goal is to find a diet that
> yeilds good nutrition, tight control, and one that also satisfies. We
> need to enjoy the food we eat!
>
> The cites you found were interesting and give support to the thing you
> are confused about. I can understand your confusion and you are
> probably not alone when it comes to contradictory evidence in the diet
> world. For every commercial diet one can find lots of links
> supporting it and probably an equal number of links damning it. So,
> what should one do in this tug of war and opposing clash of ideas? If
> I had the answer to that I'd probably create my own diet and sell it
> for millions!

There is a guy named Kurt here that would hammer you for trying to
sell it with no regard to if it actually works :-)

>
> My personal suggestion to anyone who bothers to ask my opinion on
> things like this is to find a doctor they trust, preferably an endo
> who specializes in diabetes and to work with them to determine what
> their particular needs are.
>
> The diet recommendations one reads in this newsgroup are based on
> individuals who profess that they found something that works for
> them. It is anecdotal and personal. Not that it should be dismissed,
> but it should not be taken as gospel either. There are many variables
> when it comes to what we need as diabetics and they involve how active
> we are, how our body uses insulin (be it the insulin or bodies produce
> or what some of us have to inject) and countless other factors that we
> may not even be aware of. No one diet fits all. No one way is
> necessarily better than another.

Kurt, I have seen you say this so many times on this newsgroup
and I will point out once again that of all the people that post their
opinions, you are the one that comes across the most as "my approach
is
best" yet you somehow project this trait upon the majority of this
group. Curious.


cheers

Paul

randy@val.com wrote:
> On Apr 23, 8:44 pm, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>>You'll have to tell us where all this research you mention is to be
>>
>>found, since it's certainly not easy to find.
>
>
> Here's one and there's lots more on PUB MED
>
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1599386
>
> Still confused.
>
> Randy Feingersh
>
This was published in 1979 and was cited in other subsequent articles.

Frank

"Alan S" <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:vokr235p3cn33eteqicf6sc0n723l0ipma@4ax.com...
> On 23 Apr 2007 22:36:46 -0700, "randy@val.com"
> <randy@val.com> wrote:
>
> >On Apr 23, 10:05 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 23 Apr 2007 19:20:10 -0700, "r...@val.com"
> >>
> >> <r...@val.com> wrote:
> >> >Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
> >>
> >> Speaking for myself: No.
> >>
> >> >There's alot of research showing this works,
> >>
> >> References please.
> >Here's one from the British Medical Journal.
> >And there's lots more in peer reviewed scientific jounals.
> >
> >http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1599386
> >
> >Thanks
> >Randy Feingersh
>
> See Nicky's reply. She says it so much better than I could.
> Incidentally, "One" is not "lots".
>
> This part intrigued me, it seems rather odd times to measure
> BG's; obviously post-prandial numbers were of no interest to
> them:
>
> "Compared with their usual, low-carbohydrate diabetic diet
> this diet resulted in a fall in basal plasma glucose
> concentration (average of values measured at 0300, 0500, and
> 0700), mean preprandial plasma glucose concentration
> (average of values measured at 0800, 1230, and 1730), and
> percentage of glycosylated haemoglobin."
>
> Here's "one":
>
> http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...ract/53/9/2375
> "a LoBAG diet ingested for 5 weeks dramatically reduced the
> circulating glucose concentration in people with untreated
> type 2 diabetes. Potentially, this could be a
> patient-empowering way to ameliorate hyperglycemia without
> pharmacological intervention. The long-term effects of such
> a diet remain to be determined."
> A follow-up is at
> http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...act/291/4/E786
>
> Of course, the one that mattered most to me had a sample
> size of one - myself. I followed the high-carb low-fat route
> as directed; it was a disaster for me.

Same for me. It was a disaster for high insulin resistance and damaged beta
cells. The ADA push for high grain intake is totally at odds with the type 2
condition and it's a travesty that that kind of meal planning is pushed for
the pathetic reason - "diabetics have the same nutritional needs as everyone
else". Sure that is true but the answer does not have to be high grains
which incidentally do not supply enough nutrition-wise and may actually have
the effect of providing less because it is pretty hard to fit a lot of
grains in your gut plus a lot of servings of nutritious vegetables.

The ADA is a waste of space.

"Chris Malcolm" <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:59635bF2igc44U2@mid.individual.net...
> randy@val.com <randy@val.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 23, 8:44 pm, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>> You'll have to tell us where all this research you mention is to be
> >> found, since it's certainly not easy to find.
>
> > Here's one and there's lots more on PUB MED
>
> > http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1599386
>
> If your diet was worse than this diet, which the diet of many
> diabetics in the general population is, then this diet will improve
> things for you. If your diet is better than this, which the diet of
> some T2 posters here is, then this diet will make things worse for
> you.

And while the initial effects of that diet may work for some, eventually the
underlying problem (high IR and damaged beta cells) will catch up with them.
It's not unusual to see a type 2 have initial success then find they have to
lower carbs further until they reach a point where it works.

<randy@val.com> wrote in message
news:1177381210.768175.284730@p77g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
> Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>
> There's alot of research showing this works, but almost everything I
> read of real people in the real world practice just the opposite.(low
> carb higher fat with a fair amount of meat)
>
> This contradiction is quite odd and I wonder if there is something to
> be learned from it.
>
> Any insight would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
> Randy F
>
Try it! Put your meter in one hand and your High Carb Low Fat Plant Based
menu in the other... then eat and test....eat and test....eat and test.
Maybe it'll work for you... maybe not. Everybody's different. Personally, I
think it'll make you turn blue, swell up and burst into flames... then
again, I haven't tried it.

John

"Paul L" <kbtrans@qwest.net> wrote in message

I follow the Ozgirl diet. I created it from little bits and pieces picked up
from other type 2's successes. It works absolutely for me, it is highly
nutritious with absolutely nothing missing in the way of nutrition. It may
be different from the Alan diet, or the Susan diet or whoever's, because we
all have individual needs and likes and dislikes, different levels of IR and
beta cell loss. I can't in good faith push this diet because it was made for
me, but I can share the benefit of my 29 years of expericence with blood
glucose problems The only things in common these diets have is the fact
that some type of carb modification is in place and that it works for those
it was designed for. Please feel free anyone to take parts of my WOE to use
for your own personally tailored WOE's.

My years of experience talking with other type 2's shows me that pushing
high carb diets onto a type 2 would be criminal and outright dangerous. Any
dietician that tells you that low carb is dangerous or high carb is the only
way to get nutritinal balance is grossly under-educated. The information is
out there, unfortunately most if not all dieticians never get to learn more
than they think they need, i.e. the typical dietician's college course.
There needs to be major shifts right through the entire medical profession.

"Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote in message
news:132t7npognu3j87@news.supernews.com...
>
>
> The ADA is a waste of space.

Please stop with the constant trashing of MY countries
association. I'm sure I can start digging up crap about
your countries association(s). It's really getting tiresome
of your attacking the US especially since you don't live here!

"rk" <p_haha_medium@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Msydna5DqpEXMLPbnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
> "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote in message
> news:132t7npognu3j87@news.supernews.com...
>>
>>
>> The ADA is a waste of space.
>
> Please stop with the constant trashing of MY countries
> association. I'm sure I can start digging up crap about
> your countries association(s). It's really getting tiresome
> of your attacking the US especially since you don't live here!
>
yeah, and don't start on the NRA either... !

John
(hehe)

Ozgirl wrote:
> "diabetics have the same nutritional needs as everyone
> else"
.... everyone else with a similar lifestyle.

Unless that lifestyle is high-energy athletics, its
nutritional NEEDS do not include carbs.

Energy -- you can get it from fat or protein just as well.
Vitamins -- not correlated with carbs at all.


--
Wes Groleau

Pat's Polemics = http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/barrett

Nicky wrote:
> ...By diagnosis,
> diabetics have lost half their beta cells, by definition.

Who/where published THIS definition? By that definition,
I am not diabetic. Or else my remaining beta cells are
amazingly productive to cope with my I.R. the way they do.


--
Wes Groleau

Change is inevitable. We need to learn that "inevitable" is
neither a synonym for "good" nor for "bad."
-- WWG

"Nicky" <ukc802466929@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:v6cr23hcsu6li1fhfoe9q60rbubkltl400@4ax.com...
> On 23 Apr 2007 19:20:10 -0700, "randy@val.com" <randy@val.com> wrote:
>
>>Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>
> By diagnosis,
> diabetics have lost half their beta cells, by definition.
>
> Nicky.
> T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
> D&E, 100ug thyroxine
> Last A1c 5.5% BMI 25

Sorry Nicky, have to disagree with you there. When I was
first diagnosed and was thought to have been a T2, I read
just about everything on the matter and nothing that I'd
read stated the above, instead saying that over time (several
years) that a T2 will eventually end up with beta cell loss.

For a diabetic to have beta cell loss upon diagnoses that would
make them a T1.5 (partical beta cell loss & antibodies) or a T1
(full beta cell loss & antibodies). T2's have sufficient insulin
production (most times confirmed by C-Peptide) but have lots
of IR.

--
Reisa, T1
dx-5/00 asd-7/00
Animas IR1250 pumper
Symlin 1u, 30gm meals

Yeah, and at the same time, please stop the constant trashing of our
politicians. What? You don't like the war in Iraq? Since you don't
live in this country, you don't get an opinion. ;-) LOL

Cheri


rk wrote in message ...
>"Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote in message
>news:132t7npognu3j87@news.supernews.com...
>>
>>
>> The ADA is a waste of space.
>
>Please stop with the constant trashing of MY countries
>association. I'm sure I can start digging up crap about
>your countries association(s). It's really getting tiresome
>of your attacking the US especially since you don't live here!

"rk" <p_haha_medium@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Msydna5DqpEXMLPbnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
> "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote in message
> news:132t7npognu3j87@news.supernews.com...
> >
> >
> > The ADA is a waste of space.
>
> Please stop with the constant trashing of MY countries
> association. I'm sure I can start digging up crap about
> your countries association(s). It's really getting tiresome
> of your attacking the US especially since you don't live here!

Actually if you bash our diabetic association you ARE bashing the ADA. Ours
is based on the ADA. I am an equal opportunity basher, all diabetic
associations are a waste of space, tax payers' money and donors' money.

I am not bashing Americans, I am bashing "bodies of people" who get too much
money to provide inadequate education to a very large section of the world's
population. The same people who spend donor money supporting diabetic
research and don't give prominence on their websites to research results
that disagree with their personal agendas.

On Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:55:21 -0700, "Cheri"
<gserviceatinreachdotcom> wrote:

>Yeah, and at the same time, please stop the constant trashing of our
>politicians. What? You don't like the war in Iraq? Since you don't
>live in this country, you don't get an opinion. ;-) LOL
>
>Cheri

On this day when we in Australia honour our troops (but not
necessarily those who control them) just a gentle reminder
to check on who your allies are in Iraq and Afghanistan and
in every other conflict outside the Americas since WWII.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita..._coalition.htm

Note the top three in Iraq after the US:

Countries Supporting Ops in Iraq
Country
In Iraq In Theater Total
1 United Kingdom ~7,200 1,300 ~8,500
2 South Korea ~2,300 ~2,300
3 Australia ~850 ~541 ~1,400

We are also increasing numbers in Afghanistan:
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/as...eut/index.html

Personally, I want them home again. Yesterday. But we are in
lock-step with the USA and have been on defence matters for
sixty years for inescapable diplomatic reasons; not the
least being the presence of two nations totalling several
hundred million as near to our northern shores as Cuba is to
the USA. Two predominantly Islamic nations that don't like
us very much.

I do get fairly pissed off when the vast majority of the
Americans I met on my travels seemed blithely unaware of
that alliance and support.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.

On Apr 24, 8:04 am, Susan <neverm...@nomail.com> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> r...@val.com wrote:
> > Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>
> > There's alot of research showing this works, but almost everything I
> > read of real people in the real world practice just the opposite.(low
> > carb higher fat with a fair amount of meat)
>
> > This contradiction is quite odd and I wonder if there is something to
> > be learned from it.
>
> > Any insight would be appreciated.
>
> There's not a lot of research indicating it works when you examine the
> criteria for alleged success.
>
Sorry, but there is quite a bit of recent research thats quite
convincing:
Here's a couple of studies showing 75% carb diet beat standard
recommendations:

www.nealbarnard.org/pdfs/Diabetes-Care.pdf

http://www.nealbarnard.org/pdfs/NIDDM.pdf

rk <p_haha_medium@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote in message
> news:132t7npognu3j87@news.supernews.com...
>>
>>
>> The ADA is a waste of space.

> Please stop with the constant trashing of MY countries
> association. I'm sure I can start digging up crap about
> your countries association(s).

I wish you would. In the case of both the UK and Australia there is a
simple reason for their coming to very similar conclusions to the ADA
:-)

> It's really getting tiresome
> of your attacking the US especially since you don't live here!

We non-Americans are not attacking the US, we're attacking the ADA
because we're citizens of the WWW and with respect to diabetes the ADA
is a very large and very influential *international* player. If the
ADA will restrict its web publications and influence to the US we'll
be happy to ignore it.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

<randy@val.com> wrote in message
news:1177484572.891971.182850@n15g2000prd.googlegr oups.com...
> On Apr 24, 8:04 am, Susan <neverm...@nomail.com> wrote:
> > x-no-archive: yes
> >
> > r...@val.com wrote:
> > > Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
> >
> > > There's alot of research showing this works, but almost everything I
> > > read of real people in the real world practice just the opposite.(low
> > > carb higher fat with a fair amount of meat)
> >
> > > This contradiction is quite odd and I wonder if there is something to
> > > be learned from it.
> >
> > > Any insight would be appreciated.
> >
> > There's not a lot of research indicating it works when you examine the
> > criteria for alleged success.
> >
> Sorry, but there is quite a bit of recent research thats quite
> convincing:
> Here's a couple of studies showing 75% carb diet beat standard
> recommendations:

For what? Blood glucose levels in diabetics?

randy@val.com wrote:
> On Apr 24, 8:04 am, Susan <neverm...@nomail.com> wrote:
>
>>x-no-archive: yes
>>
>>r...@val.com wrote:
>>
>>>Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>>
>>>There's alot of research showing this works, but almost everything I
>>>read of real people in the real world practice just the opposite.(low
>>>carb higher fat with a fair amount of meat)
>>
>>>This contradiction is quite odd and I wonder if there is something to
>>>be learned from it.
>>
>>>Any insight would be appreciated.
>>
>>There's not a lot of research indicating it works when you examine the
>>criteria for alleged success.
>>
>
> Sorry, but there is quite a bit of recent research thats quite
> convincing:
> Here's a couple of studies showing 75% carb diet beat standard
> recommendations:
>
> www.nealbarnard.org/pdfs/Diabetes-Care.pdf
>
> http://www.nealbarnard.org/pdfs/NIDDM.pdf
>
>
>

So now we get to the heart of the matter, eh?

You're a PETA pusher. You offer quack science by a documented liar.
Bugger off - I'm having steak and eggs for breakfast.

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_.../headline/3178

http://www.ncahf.org/articles/o-r/pcrm.html

V.

rk <p_haha_medium@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Nicky" <ukc802466929@btconnect.com> wrote in message
> news:v6cr23hcsu6li1fhfoe9q60rbubkltl400@4ax.com...
>> On 23 Apr 2007 19:20:10 -0700, "randy@val.com" <randy@val.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Has anyone had success with a High Carb Low Fat plant based diet.
>>
>> By diagnosis,
>> diabetics have lost half their beta cells, by definition.
>>
>> Nicky.
>> T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
>> D&E, 100ug thyroxine
>> Last A1c 5.5% BMI 25

> Sorry Nicky, have to disagree with you there. When I was
> first diagnosed and was thought to have been a T2, I read
> just about everything on the matter and nothing that I'd
> read stated the above, instead saying that over time (several
> years) that a T2 will eventually end up with beta cell loss.

I guess that it's time then for your diabetic education to have an
update. Here for example is an article "Advances in Diabetes for the
Millennium: Understanding Insulin Resistance" from Medscape's
Continuing Medical Education series for doctors.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/487845

You can access that for free with a free Medscape registration. As you
will see docs can no longer get CME credits for reading it. That's
because they expect that by now all docs with an interest in diabetes
should already have learned this. On page 3 under the headings of

What Are the Main Causes?
Impaired Insulin Secretion

it says:

The UKPDS data indicate at diagnosis that patients with type 2
diabetes have about a 50% reduction in pancreatic beta-cell
function and are insulin-resistant,[8].

> For a diabetic to have beta cell loss upon diagnoses that would
> make them a T1.5 (partical beta cell loss & antibodies) or a T1
> (full beta cell loss & antibodies). T2's have sufficient insulin
> production (most times confirmed by C-Peptide) but have lots
> of IR.

What is probably confusing you is the difference between the maximum
capacity of the healthy pancreas for insulin production, and the
normal daily needs. The maximum capacity in an unimpaired pancreas is
about 4 times normal daily needs. Hence it is quite possible to lose
half your beta cells and still have enough for normal daily BG
control. Many T2s at diagnosis, however, have not only lost half the
beta cells, but also need twice as much insulin due to IR. That
combination is the crucial tipping point at which the progressive
damage they have been suffering for years (the UKPDS data suggests on
average 13 years) becomes bad enough that they finally lose control of
their normal daily BGs badly enough to pass the current diagnostic BG
thresholds for diabetes.

As the recent ADA suggestions on the treatment of prediabetes point
out, it really would a be a rather good idea to start treating this
long progressive slide earlier, at a time T2s-to-be had more of their
beta cells and it would be a lot easier to slow down or even stop
the progression.

Incidentally, that article will also update you on the differences in
high BG damage risk (in general on average) of T2s as compared to T1s.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:42:17 +1000, "Ozgirl"
<are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> wrote:

>Actually if you bash our diabetic association you ARE bashing the ADA. Ours
>is based on the ADA. I am an equal opportunity basher, all diabetic
>associations are a waste of space, tax payers' money and donors' money.

Yup - what she said.

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.5% BMI 25