<!-- google_ad_section_start -->Avandia scare may be bogus<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
Health Forums

Go Back   Health Forums > Diseases and Conditions > Diabetes > alt.support.diabetes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-23-2007, 03:13 PM
Wes Groleau
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Avandia scare may be bogus

My doctor told me this morning that the recent Avandia
"news" is crap. He got the NEJM yesterday, and said it
was a meta-analysis released for publicity. Afew guys get on a
computer, look up some "incidents," write something up
and call it a "study." Journalists
read the abstract, and never see where they 'fess up to
the weaknesses of their "study."

Meanwhile, doctors start getting calls from panicky patients....

--
Wes Groleau

"A miracle is a violation of the laws of nature, and as a
firm and unalterable experience has established these laws,
the proof against a miracle, from the very nature of the fact,
is as entire as could possibly be imagined."
-- David Hume, age 37

"There's no such thing of that, 'cause I never heard of it."
-- Becky Groleau, age 4
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-23-2007, 03:13 PM
Wes Groleau
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Avandia scare may be bogus

ON THE OTHER HAND:
http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...andia-anxiety/

Wes Groleau wrote:
> My doctor told me this morning that the recent Avandia
> "news" is crap. He got the NEJM yesterday, and said it
> was a meta-analysis released for publicity. Afew guys get on a
> computer, look up some "incidents," write something up
> and call it a "study." Journalists
> read the abstract, and never see where they 'fess up to
> the weaknesses of their "study."
>
> Meanwhile, doctors start getting calls from panicky patients....
>



--
Wes Groleau

I've noticed lately that the paranoid fear of computers becoming
intelligent and taking over the world has almost entirely disappeared
from the common culture. Near as I can tell, this coincides with
the release of MS-DOS.
-- Larry DeLuca
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-23-2007, 07:01 PM
ray
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Avandia scare may be bogus

On Wed, 23 May 2007 12:30:37 +0000, Wes Groleau wrote:

> My doctor told me this morning that the recent Avandia
> "news" is crap. He got the NEJM yesterday, and said it
> was a meta-analysis released for publicity. Afew guys get on a
> computer, look up some "incidents," write something up
> and call it a "study." Journalists
> read the abstract, and never see where they 'fess up to
> the weaknesses of their "study."
>
> Meanwhile, doctors start getting calls from panicky patients....


Is it worth the risk? I've started a trial period to evaluate whether the
avandia was really making much difference.

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-23-2007, 07:01 PM
Priscilla H. Ballou
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Avandia scare may be bogus

In article <NtW4i.7999$TU1.6557@trnddc07>,
Wes Groleau <groleau+news@freeshell.org> wrote:

> My doctor told me this morning that the recent Avandia
> "news" is crap. He got the NEJM yesterday, and said it
> was a meta-analysis released for publicity. Afew guys get on a
> computer, look up some "incidents," write something up
> and call it a "study." Journalists
> read the abstract, and never see where they 'fess up to
> the weaknesses of their "study."
>
> Meanwhile, doctors start getting calls from panicky patients....


OTOH, isn't this the second warning about Avandia? I seem to recall
both Actos and Avandia were ID'ed as associated with higher risks of
heart attack and stroke some months ago.

This just confirms my choice to stay on metformin. 40 years of good
record and counting!

Priscilla
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-24-2007, 01:26 AM
Ozgirl
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Avandia scare may be bogus


"Wes Groleau" <groleau+news@freeshell.org> wrote in message
news:NtW4i.7999$TU1.6557@trnddc07...
> My doctor told me this morning that the recent Avandia
> "news" is crap. He got the NEJM yesterday, and said it
> was a meta-analysis released for publicity. Afew guys get on a
> computer, look up some "incidents," write something up
> and call it a "study." Journalists
> read the abstract, and never see where they 'fess up to
> the weaknesses of their "study."
>
> Meanwhile, doctors start getting calls from panicky patients....


No different from the HRT scare. The actual rise in deaths with that study
was very minimal even though the percent rise looked good. I think it's a
matter of whether a doctor feels it really is necessary to use Avandia and
HRT.

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-24-2007, 01:26 AM
Susan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Avandia scare may be bogus

x-no-archive: yes

Ozgirl wrote:

> No different from the HRT scare. The actual rise in deaths with that study
> was very minimal even though the percent rise looked good. I think it's a
> matter of whether a doctor feels it really is necessary to use Avandia and
> HRT.
>


The issue with HRT was certainly larger than you make it sound; the
benefits touted for 25 years turned out to be lies. We were told it
would stave off dementia and heart disease, and instead it increased
them. The gap between the truth and the reality is the issue. That's
not a scare, unless you think having drugs pushed upon you for decades
for no proven reason and no decent science behind all the assertions by
reasearchers is scary.

I do.

And it's not up to my doctor whether I use HRT, it's up to me.

Susan
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-24-2007, 01:26 AM
Alan S
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Avandia scare may be bogus

On Wed, 23 May 2007 12:30:37 GMT, Wes Groleau
<groleau+news@freeshell.org> wrote:

>My doctor told me this morning that the recent Avandia
>"news" is crap. He got the NEJM yesterday, and said it
>was a meta-analysis released for publicity. Afew guys get on a
>computer, look up some "incidents," write something up
>and call it a "study." Journalists
>read the abstract, and never see where they 'fess up to
>the weaknesses of their "study."
>
>Meanwhile, doctors start getting calls from panicky patients....


I prefer the more responsible response from the AACE.

This is their memo to members, it is also worth reading Dr
Hellmann's letter to his patients, which is linked below
this on the web-page:
http://www.aace.com/temp/index.php

"DATE: May 23, 2007

TO: AACE Membership

SUBJECT: FDA Safety Alert Re Avandia

Dear Colleagues:

By now many of you have seen the FDA Safety Alert issued
yesterday regarding the increased cardiovascular risk that
may be linked to the use of Avandia in treating patients
with Type II diabetes. The FDA report comes as a result of
an article by Steven Nissen, published electronically
(www.nejm.org), in the New England Journal of Medicine, May
21st, entitled Effect of Rosiglitazone on the Risk of
Myocardial Infarction and Death from Cardiovascular Causes.

AACE agrees with the FDA action to raise these concerns
pending more definitive studies regarding the safety of
Avandia. AACE is not suggesting at this time that doctors
stop prescribing Avandia altogether. However, because Dr.
Nissen’s study raises a possibility that certain patients,
such as those who have heart disease, may be at especially
high risk, AACE feels it important to discuss this with your
patients who may be on Avandia or other drugs in this class,
and that the safety concerns raised by Dr. Nissen’s article
and FDA be carefully considered in determining the best
course of action for these patients. I am happy to share
with you the attached notice we are using in my own
practice. You may wish to consider a similar approach in
your practice:

Related articles and commentaries on this issue are attached
for your review. AACE will continue to monitor this
evolving issue and provide updates to the membership as they
become available."


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Slovenia
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-24-2007, 10:31 AM
Cheri
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Avandia scare may be bogus

Me too. Never did. :-)

Cheri


Susan wrote in message

<5bjsdeF2sohglU1@mid.individual.net>...
>And it's not up to my doctor whether I use HRT, it's up to me.
>
>Susan



Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-24-2007, 10:31 AM
wingmask@yahoo.com
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Avandia scare may be bogus

On May 23, 8:30 am, Wes Groleau <groleau+n...@freeshell.org> wrote:
> My doctor told me this morning that the recent Avandia
> "news" is crap. He got the NEJM yesterday, and said it
> was a meta-analysis released for publicity. Afew guys get on a
> computer, look up some "incidents," write something up
> and call it a "study." Journalists
> read the abstract, and never see where they 'fess up to
> the weaknesses of their "study."
>
> Meanwhile, doctors start getting calls from panicky patients....
>
> --
> Wes Groleau
>
> "A miracle is a violation of the laws of nature, and as a
> firm and unalterable experience has established these laws,
> the proof against a miracle, from the very nature of the fact,
> is as entire as could possibly be imagined."
> -- David Hume, age 37
>
> "There's no such thing of that, 'cause I never heard of it."
> -- Becky Groleau, age 4


That's your doctor. Did Alan and Mack debunk it?

Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-24-2007, 10:31 AM
DonnaB shallotpeel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Avandia scare may be bogus

In alt.support.diabetes on Thu, 24 May 2007 07:35:48 +1000 in Msg.#
<1359d29sd7suo6b@news.supernews.com>, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com>
wrote:

> No different from the HRT scare. The actual rise in deaths with that study
> was very minimal even though the percent rise looked good. I think it's a
> matter of whether a doctor feels it really is necessary to use Avandia and
> HRT.


And, in truth, whether to use HRT is a issue of specific individual cases -
the right thing to do for some people, not the right thing for others.

We are not 'one size fits all' and we never have been!

--
DonnaB
06-07-06 Diagnosis T2 hbA1C 8.1, D&E & Metformin 500mg
...................09-11-06 hbA1C 5.0
...................12-20-06 hbA1C 5.2
...................05-18-07 hbA1C

"Progress and profit require a substantial investment in personnel,
equipment, and capital funding. However, the resource most often
overlooked, yet which can often provide the greatest payoff, is an
investment in time." - Earl Dominic Vernius, The Secret Workings of Ix,
Brian Herbert & Kevin J. Anderson, DUNE: HOUSE ATREIDES [1999]
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-24-2007, 10:32 AM
morris
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Avandia scare may be bogus

A bit of truth from the person who said that all medications are a
double edged sword. Also true that the media tends to sensationalize
and the details don't always fully back up the headlines.

As someone who has been taking Avandia since I was diagnosed with
diabetes over 4 years ago, I was iniitally alarmed to read this report
this morning. At that point the article itself had not yet been
released and so I was just reading the news reports off of Yahoo which
made for sensational headlines.

Last night I read the full NEJM article, which by the way does compare
Actos favorably to Avandia. One reason why is that there has been a
study specifically focusing on the cardiovascular effects of Actos;
heart attacks were 90% of those recorded in the control group and "a
secondary end point consisting of myocardial infarction, stroke, and
death from any cause showed a significant effect favoring
pioglitazone" with 16% fewer of these outcomes. While there is a
similar study now under way with Avandia, there have been NO studies
to date specifically focusing on Avandia and heart problems.

So what the authors of this study have done is look for clues in the
other studies that have been done on Avandia. Of 118 studies, they
found 48 that seemed to meet their criteria. 6 were discarded because
there was no incidence of heart problems reported for either the
Avandia or control groups. That exclusion may bias this new study to
some extent, IMHO, although it is unclear how large they were. The
second largest study among the 42 included, the ADOPT study, was also
the longest study in duration, covering 4 years. Almost all of the
other studies were of limited duration, covering only 6 months to 1
year. One was for 2 years, and 3 others for 3 years. The 4 year
ADOPT study, the longest one, contradicted the results of the others,
showing a 20% reduction in deaths among the Avandia group, even though
it showed 33% more cardiac events. The largest study showed a 20%
higher chance of death in the Avandia group of patients, quite a bit
less than the composite "average"--more on that below.

The author of the study notes that 26 of the studies were never
published, and that many of the studies had few cardiovasular events;
the chart shows that of 42 studies, 3 had more than 3 myocaridal
infactions in the Avandia group of patients. There were 86 such events
in the Avandia group, and 72 in the various control groups. This
includes over 15,000 patients taking Avandia, and 12,000 in the
control groups. Strangely enough that works out to 20% more myocardial
infarctions in the Avandia group, which was, (coincidentally?) 20%
larger than the control group. Although deaths from myocardial
infarction were significantly (about 39%) higher in the Avandia group,
the authors are careful to note that "the included trials did not
describe adjudication of myocardial infarction or death from
cardiovascular causes. Time-to-event data for cardiovascular events
were not available in any of these trials... Because only summary data
were available, it was not possible to discern whether the same
patient had both events."

The authors write that:

"Our study has important limitations. We pooled the results of a
group of trials that were not originally intended to explore
cardiovascular outcomes. Most trials did not centrally adjudicate
cardiovascular outcomes, and the definitions of myocardial infarction
were not available. Many of these trials were small and short-term,
resulting in few adverse cardiovascular events or deaths [and]
considerable uncertainty about the magnitude of the observed hazard.
Furthermore, we did not have access to original source data for any of
these trials. Thus, we based the analysis on available data from
publicly disclosed summaries of events. The lack of availability of
source data did not allow the use of more statistically powerful time-
to-event analysis. A meta-analysis is always considered less
convincing than a large prospective trial designed to assess the
outcome of interest."

Which, of course is followed by the authors' conclusion that " Despite
these limitations, our data point to the urgent need for comprehensive
evaluations to clarify the cardiovascular risks of rosiglitazone," and
notes that "further analyses of data available to the FDA and the
manufacturer would enable a more robust assessment of the risks of
this drug."

I certainly would not dispute those conclusions, but my alarm level is
a bit lower having read the actual article rather than the news
reports. The news reports emphasize the most alarming statements in
the article, and in reading the article, I am not sure that the
authors did not have a predetermined agenda.

In the last year, Avandia was reported to have negative consequences
in retinopathy. When I read that, it seemed that this was extremely
rare and almost always occurs in patients with the edema side effect,
which I have not had. My retinologist, who I respect quite a bit, did
not think there was any reason for me to be concerned.

At that time I also talked to my doctor about stopping Avandia. Maybe
I have no insulin resistance anymore, and if not, why am I taking
Avandia? He told me that he wanted me to keep taking it because it
protects against the loss of beta cell function. You may have to log
in to read this Medscape article, at http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/496269
which states that

"the addition of RSG (avandia) to SU (glucotrol) had a durable
effect on reducing insulin and improving pancreatic beta-cell function
compared with SU alone, which had deleterious effects on beta-cell
function. Thus, it appears that the addition of RSG to SU, even in
older subjects with compromised beta-cell function, is capable of
improving that function and, in so doing, seems to abrogate the
progressive decline in beta-cell function characteristic of the
disease."

When I first read that and another study I found at the same time 2
years ago, I was looking at the evidence that sulfonylureas "wear out
the beta cells." It was interesting to read studies that specifically
referenced the dosage of Avandia I was taking, and prescribed any
problems with sulfonylureas to dosages 3-4X higher than I was taking,
specifically noting that the same effects were not seen at my dosage.

Perhaps I am sticking my head in the sand, although I intend to
discuss this with my doctor the next time I go in, and have scheduled
a C-peptide test with my next labs to see how it has changed since
the last time, even though my doctor cautions that beta cell output
declines with age even in non-diabetic individuals.

Even so I would caution against panic based on this latest report,
which actually contains no information that had not been previously
reported. The authors are right to call for more study, and disucssing
the issue with your doctor if you take Avandia seems like a good idea.

Morris








Morris

Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Avandia Loretta Eisenberg alt.support.diabetes 14 05-24-2007 10:31 AM
Avandia and Chemo Alan S alt.support.diabetes 1 05-08-2007 01:57 PM
scare over HRT-ovarian cancer link calliandra722@yahoo.co.uk alt.support.menopause 2 04-19-2007 01:44 PM
Avandia: to take, or not to take? Amy Guskin alt.support.diabetes 34 03-11-2007 04:02 AM
Blood scare unsettles UK Fire Chief alt.support.arthritis 0 01-14-2007 02:35 AM


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0
     
   
 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41