Daily Weighing and Quick Action Keeps Pounds Off

[GysdeJongh]

Seen this ?

http://www.brown.edu/Administration/...07/06-035.html
Most successful dieters regain the weight they lost. But new research shows
that a daily weigh-in - and quick adjustments to diet and exercise - can
significantly help dieters maintain weight loss. The clinical trial,
conducted by researchers at The Miriam Hospital and Brown Medical School,
reports results of the first program designed specifically for weight loss
maintenance. The study appears in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Unlike other obesity studies, which focus on how to lose weight, the "STOP
Regain" trial tested a method that taught participants how to keep those
pounds from coming back - regardless of the method they used to lose the
weight in the first place.

Self-regulation is the core of STOP Regain
Rena Wing, professor of psychiatry and human behavior at Brown Medical
School, directs the Weight Control and Diabetes Research Center at The
Miriam Hospital. Weight reduction is only part of the battle. Knowing how to
keep pounds off is key.



hth

Gys

[Nicky]

"GysdeJongh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:45316d7a$0$2014$[email protected] ..
> Seen this ?
>
> http://www.brown.edu/Administration/...07/06-035.html

Neat article. Doesn't this sound familiar, in a test,test,test context:

“If you want to keep lost pounds off, daily weighing is critical,” Wing
said. “But stepping on the scale isn’t enough. You have to use that
information to change your behavior, whether that means eating healthier or
walking more. Paying attention to weight – and taking quick action if it
creeps up – seems to be the secret to success.”

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/5.3/<6 T2 DX 05/2004
No Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/72/72Kg

[Roger Zoul]

Nicky wrote:
:: "GysdeJongh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
:: news:45316d7a$0$2014$[email protected] ..
::: Seen this ?
:::
::: http://www.brown.edu/Administration/...07/06-035.html
::
:: Neat article. Doesn't this sound familiar, in a test,test,test
:: context:
::
:: "If you want to keep lost pounds off, daily weighing is critical,"
:: Wing said. "But stepping on the scale isn't enough. You have to use
:: that information to change your behavior, whether that means eating
:: healthier or walking more. Paying attention to weight - and taking
:: quick action if it creeps up - seems to be the secret to success."
::
:: Nicky.

It's as obvious as obvious can be.

[Alan S]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 08:29:08 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Nicky wrote:
>:: "GysdeJongh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>:: news:45316d7a$0$2014$[email protected] ..
>::: Seen this ?
>:::
>::: http://www.brown.edu/Administration/...07/06-035.html
>::
>:: Neat article. Doesn't this sound familiar, in a test,test,test
>:: context:
>::
>:: "If you want to keep lost pounds off, daily weighing is critical,"
>:: Wing said. "But stepping on the scale isn't enough. You have to use
>:: that information to change your behavior, whether that means eating
>:: healthier or walking more. Paying attention to weight - and taking
>:: quick action if it creeps up - seems to be the secret to success."
>::
>:: Nicky.
>
>It's as obvious as obvious can be.
>


Funny - it seemed obvious to me from the moment I read
Jennifer.

It was called "feedback" in about my second class as a 17-yo
radio tech trainee. Iterative action-rection. Continual
slight changes, read the results, change the input and on we
go in ever-decreasing circles until we fly up...no that was
something else...

But you're right. It's so bloody obvious.

Incidentally, I used the scales daily from the day of
diagnosis. And still do when I'm home.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Alhambra
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

[Nicky]

"Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..

> Incidentally, I used the scales daily from the day of
> diagnosis. And still do when I'm home.

That behaviour would earn you air sucked through teeth and a headshake from
some regulars of the low-carb group : ) Their argument seems to be that
daily fluctuation can be greater than the 5lb band the STOP Regain bunch
operate within, and weighing weekly or even monthly is better. Not that I've
noticed that - my swings are around the 1lb mark, and I'd rather fix small
deviations than large ones... I do only write down my weight on Mondays,
though : )

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/5.3/<6 T2 DX 05/2004
No Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/72/72Kg

[Roger Zoul]

Nicky wrote:
:: "Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
:: news:[email protected]..
::
::: Incidentally, I used the scales daily from the day of
::: diagnosis. And still do when I'm home.
::
:: That behaviour would earn you air sucked through teeth and a
:: headshake from some regulars of the low-carb group : ) Their
:: argument seems to be that daily fluctuation can be greater than the
:: 5lb band the STOP Regain bunch operate within, and weighing weekly
:: or even monthly is better. Not that I've noticed that - my swings
:: are around the 1lb mark, and I'd rather fix small deviations than
:: large ones... I do only write down my weight on Mondays, though : )

For the LCer, daily fluctuation can be greater than 5 lbs if you decided to
drift off-plan on a jobride to cannoliville! I don't see those jumps
otherwise. 1 lb can certainly show up, however. But none of that is a
problem if you know what the reasons for the jump are. The information
helps you keep your course clears. It seems to be working for me as I have
been able to stay within a 5 lbs range with just monitoring scale weight.
If I see jumps that I know aren't due to eating more carbs, which happen
slowly over time, I resume fitday.com tracking until I get back. I find
that's easy to do, rather than waiting for a 20 lb drift!

[Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD]

GysdeJongh wrote:
> Seen this ?
>
> http://www.brown.edu/Administration/...07/06-035.html
> Most successful dieters regain the weight they lost. But new research shows
> that a daily weigh-in - and quick adjustments to diet and exercise - can
> significantly help dieters maintain weight loss. The clinical trial,
> conducted by researchers at The Miriam Hospital and Brown Medical School,
> reports results of the first program designed specifically for weight loss
> maintenance. The study appears in the New England Journal of Medicine.
>
> Unlike other obesity studies, which focus on how to lose weight, the "STOP
> Regain" trial tested a method that taught participants how to keep those
> pounds from coming back - regardless of the method they used to lose the
> weight in the first place.
>
> Self-regulation is the core of STOP Regain
> Rena Wing, professor of psychiatry and human behavior at Brown Medical
> School, directs the Weight Control and Diabetes Research Center at The
> Miriam Hospital. Weight reduction is only part of the battle. Knowing how to
> keep pounds off is key.

It seems they would advocate the tail wagging the dog.

The tail is the weigh-in and daily weigh-ins would be a lot of
tail-wagging.

Much wiser is addressing the dog, which is overeating.

Knowing how to eat less down to the right amount and staying at this
right amount by befriending the hunger that arises with better
leaner&trimmer health (overcoming type-2 diabetes) is the true key to
losing weight permanently.

May GOD continue to heal your heart by curing your diabetes, dear
neighbor GysdeJongh whom I love unconditionally.

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit

As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...ad7fe68478acf?

[GysdeJongh]

"Roger Zoul" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> Nicky wrote:
> :: "GysdeJongh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> :: news:45316d7a$0$2014$[email protected] ..
> ::: Seen this ?
> :::
> ::: http://www.brown.edu/Administration/...07/06-035.html
> ::
> :: Neat article. Doesn't this sound familiar, in a test,test,test
> :: context:
> ::
> :: "If you want to keep lost pounds off, daily weighing is critical,"
> :: Wing said. "But stepping on the scale isn't enough. You have to use
> :: that information to change your behavior, whether that means eating
> :: healthier or walking more. Paying attention to weight - and taking
> :: quick action if it creeps up - seems to be the secret to success."
> ::
> :: Nicky.
>
> It's as obvious as obvious can be.
>
>


Hi Roger and Nicky ,
yes > It's as obvious as obvious can be.

I do it each day.
I use a scale with 0.1 kg indication.

I promised myself to take quick action if my bodyweight is too high for me.
I do that by reducing calories for that same day and increasing the time on
my bike.

For me I would say : I is as difficult as difficult can be

Just to paraphrase you Roger , if you don't mind

Gys

[GysdeJongh]

"Nicky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
>
> "Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]..
>
>> Incidentally, I used the scales daily from the day of
>> diagnosis. And still do when I'm home.
>
> That behaviour would earn you air sucked through teeth and a headshake
> from some regulars of the low-carb group : ) Their argument seems to be
> that daily fluctuation can be greater than the 5lb band the STOP Regain
> bunch operate within, and weighing weekly or even monthly is better. Not
> that I've noticed that - my swings are around the 1lb mark, and I'd rather
> fix small deviations than large ones... I do only write down my weight on
> Mondays, though : )


Hi Nicky,
yes you are right of course.

The swings get less if you do this always at the same time in the morning on
an empty stomag and just after taking the shower and "using the bath room"
as they say in England.

I make a Lowess fit of all the past data and use that and the last
measurement to fit my bodyweight for today.Which removes , in my practice ,
all the uncertainty.But then..... you have to be a statistics nerd to do
that

hth
Gys

[W. Baker]

Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
: On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 08:29:08 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
: <[email protected]> wrote:

: >Nicky wrote:
: >:: "GysdeJongh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: >:: news:45316d7a$0$2014$[email protected] ..
: >::: Seen this ?
: >:::
: >::: http://www.brown.edu/Administration/...07/06-035.html
: >::
: >:: Neat article. Doesn't this sound familiar, in a test,test,test
: >:: context:
: >::
: >:: "If you want to keep lost pounds off, daily weighing is critical,"
: >:: Wing said. "But stepping on the scale isn't enough. You have to use
: >:: that information to change your behavior, whether that means eating
: >:: healthier or walking more. Paying attention to weight - and taking
: >:: quick action if it creeps up - seems to be the secret to success."
: >::
: >:: Nicky.
: >
: >It's as obvious as obvious can be.
: >


: Funny - it seemed obvious to me from the moment I read
: Jennifer.

: It was called "feedback" in about my second class as a 17-yo
: radio tech trainee. Iterative action-rection. Continual
: slight changes, read the results, change the input and on we
: go in ever-decreasing circles until we fly up...no that was
: something else...

: But you're right. It's so bloody obvious.

: Incidentally, I used the scales daily from the day of
: diagnosis. And still do when I'm home.

: Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
: d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
: http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
: latest: Alhambra
: --
: Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

It is interesting that this obvious item seems so radical. For years
people keep advising dieters and those bothered by excess weight to not
weigh themselves every day because there are somany small fluctuations
that may discourage the dieter

I have found that I must weigh myself every day or pounds can slip back on
too easily. I have maintained a loss of about 60-64 lbs for almost 20
years with this method. Now,if I could only loose anoher 40 or so, i
would be thrilled!

I never understood that "don't weigh yourself" advice, but then I am nt a
dietician .

Wendy

[Susan]

x-no-archive: yes

W. Baker wrote:

> I have found that I must weigh myself every day or pounds can slip back on
> too easily. I have maintained a loss of about 60-64 lbs for almost 20
> years with this method. Now,if I could only loose anoher 40 or so, i
> would be thrilled!
>
> I never understood that "don't weigh yourself" advice, but then I am nt a
> dietician .

Me, too, Wendy. I weigh myself every a.m., naked, bladder empty, hair
dry, before eating... you get the idea. :-) One to 3 lbs of water
weight creep on if I've eaten some starch carbs, and I make sure to get
them off within 24-48 hours. Mostly, though, I stay within a 1 lb.
range, toeing the line that keeps me from regaining.

It's been fun buying all new clothes, and I've given away all the larger
ones, so I *have* to stay this thin! :-)

Susan

[Roger Zoul]

Susan wrote:
:: x-no-archive: yes
::
:: W. Baker wrote:
::
::: I have found that I must weigh myself every day or pounds can slip
::: back on too easily. I have maintained a loss of about 60-64 lbs
::: for almost 20 years with this method. Now,if I could only loose
::: anoher 40 or so, i would be thrilled!
:::
::: I never understood that "don't weigh yourself" advice, but then I
::: am nt a dietician .
::
:: Me, too, Wendy. I weigh myself every a.m., naked, bladder empty,
:: hair dry, before eating... you get the idea. :-) One to 3 lbs of
:: water weight creep on if I've eaten some starch carbs, and I make
:: sure to get them off within 24-48 hours. Mostly, though, I stay
:: within a 1 lb. range, toeing the line that keeps me from regaining.
::
:: It's been fun buying all new clothes, and I've given away all the
:: larger ones, so I *have* to stay this thin! :-)

Yes, getting rid of your "fat" clothes is another trick!

[Susan]

x-no-archive: yes

Roger Zoul wrote:

> Yes, getting rid of your "fat" clothes is another trick!

I call them my fat clothes, but they were actually pretty average.
I'm falling in love with Levi's all over again; I actually needed a size
4 in one of their styles. :-) My ideal size has always been a 6, but
there's been size inflation in some brands.

Susan

[Alan S]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:20:16 +0200, "GysdeJongh"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Nicky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]..
>>
>> "Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]..
>>
>>> Incidentally, I used the scales daily from the day of
>>> diagnosis. And still do when I'm home.
>>
>> That behaviour would earn you air sucked through teeth and a headshake
>> from some regulars of the low-carb group : ) Their argument seems to be
>> that daily fluctuation can be greater than the 5lb band the STOP Regain
>> bunch operate within, and weighing weekly or even monthly is better. Not
>> that I've noticed that - my swings are around the 1lb mark, and I'd rather
>> fix small deviations than large ones... I do only write down my weight on
>> Mondays, though : )
>
>
>Hi Nicky,
>yes you are right of course.
>
>The swings get less if you do this always at the same time in the morning on
>an empty stomag and just after taking the shower and "using the bath room"
>as they say in England.
>
>I make a Lowess fit of all the past data and use that and the last
>measurement to fit my bodyweight for today.Which removes , in my practice ,
>all the uncertainty.But then..... you have to be a statistics nerd to do
>that
>
>hth
>Gys
>

I weigh first thing in the morning, stark naked after my
shower. I have good quality electronic digital scales.

Yes, there is variation of up to a Kg(2.2lb) from day to
day; that doesn't bother me unless it keeps heading upwards
consistently. The way to know that is to log it and graph it
(which I did when I was trying to lose a lot of weight, but
don't now).

In fact, during my weight loss phase there were periods when
it stayed level or even crept up for more than a month but I
stayed focused on the long term goal. Then suddenly I would
drop off the plateau and lose quite a lot in a week before
stabilising again. It was as if my body needed a "breather"
to catch up with the changes.

The scales are necessary for reality. I remember commenting
to Nicky in London that I had gained a little weight
wandering on my travels - but when I arrived home I had
actually lost 2Kg(4.4lbs).

Now the scales tell me that I've been a little too relaxed
while the pool was too cold to swim and it's time to get
back to work - because I've put them back on again:-)

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Alhambra
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

[Alan S]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:24:47 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> but then I am nt a dietician .

Thank goodness for that Wendy:-)

Keep doing what you're doing - you're obviously doing it
right.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Alhambra
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

[Alan S]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 18:33:03 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Susan wrote:
>:: x-no-archive: yes
>::
>:: W. Baker wrote:
>::
>::: I have found that I must weigh myself every day or pounds can slip
>::: back on too easily. I have maintained a loss of about 60-64 lbs
>::: for almost 20 years with this method. Now,if I could only loose
>::: anoher 40 or so, i would be thrilled!
>:::
>::: I never understood that "don't weigh yourself" advice, but then I
>::: am nt a dietician .
>::
>:: Me, too, Wendy. I weigh myself every a.m., naked, bladder empty,
>:: hair dry, before eating... you get the idea. :-) One to 3 lbs of
>:: water weight creep on if I've eaten some starch carbs, and I make
>:: sure to get them off within 24-48 hours. Mostly, though, I stay
>:: within a 1 lb. range, toeing the line that keeps me from regaining.
>::
>:: It's been fun buying all new clothes, and I've given away all the
>:: larger ones, so I *have* to stay this thin! :-)
>
>Yes, getting rid of your "fat" clothes is another trick!
>

The novelty has passed, but there were two moments of joy
I've never forgotten - and that I know are in the future for
those newbies who arrive here needing to lose weight.

The first was the day I tried on the uniform I wore over 20
years ago when I was in the service - and it was loose! I
hadn't been able to wear it since discharge.

The second was the day I saw a slim stranger keeping pace
with me in the mall - and realised with a shock it was my
reflection in a shop window.

Doesn't sound like much, but they were moments to treasure.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Alhambra
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

[bj]

"Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
>>:: It's been fun buying all new clothes, and I've given away all the
>>:: larger ones, so I *have* to stay this thin! :-)
>>
>>Yes, getting rid of your "fat" clothes is another trick!
>>

The one thing I kept is a size-larger business suit I used a few times on my
way down to my current form. I keep it just in case I do gain a few pounds &
then (with my usual exquisite timing) need to go to a funeral -- & certainly
wouldn't want to have to hurry out & find something then. I call both my
suits (the one that fits & the larger one I saved) "funeral suits" as that's
the only occasion when I'd really have to wear something like that.

Maybe it's a sign of age that I think about keeping something like that
around!
:-)
bj

[Alan S]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 01:33:27 GMT, "bj"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]. .
>>>:: It's been fun buying all new clothes, and I've given away all the
>>>:: larger ones, so I *have* to stay this thin! :-)
>>>
>>>Yes, getting rid of your "fat" clothes is another trick!
>>>
>
>The one thing I kept is a size-larger business suit I used a few times on my
>way down to my current form. I keep it just in case I do gain a few pounds &
>then (with my usual exquisite timing) need to go to a funeral -- & certainly
>wouldn't want to have to hurry out & find something then. I call both my
>suits (the one that fits & the larger one I saved) "funeral suits" as that's
>the only occasion when I'd really have to wear something like that.
>
>Maybe it's a sign of age that I think about keeping something like that
>around!
>:-)
>bj
>
>
My only suit is the "fat" suit. I'll just have to look gaunt
and baggy at funerals - because I have no intention of ever
buying another; one of the fringe benefits of retirement:-)

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Alhambra
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

[Chris Malcolm]

Nicky <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]..

>> Incidentally, I used the scales daily from the day of
>> diagnosis. And still do when I'm home.

> That behaviour would earn you air sucked through teeth and a headshake from
> some regulars of the low-carb group : ) Their argument seems to be that
> daily fluctuation can be greater than the 5lb band the STOP Regain bunch
> operate within, and weighing weekly or even monthly is better.

That's a weird argument. I do notice that my weight can vary by about
5lbs due to such things as my state of hydration and when I last had a
crap. It's not difficult to avoid such fluctuations intruding into
your data collection by standardising the conditions of
measurement. It's also not difficult, if such daily variability is
impossible to avoid, to use a statistical smoothing procedure on the
data.

The purpose of the weighing is to control weight changes due to
putting on fat, but not to have the fat control regime disturbed by
reacting to non-fat fluctuations in weight.

It's basic engineering that the best control is acheived by reacting
to the smallest reliable indicators of change as quickly as
possible. We have here the classic problem that our measurement of
what we want to measure, fat accumulation, is polluted by rapid small
changes due to something else, such as hydration state.

Looks to me that what these folk on the low-carb group have decided to
do is peg the smallest weight change they'll pay attention to as
outside the amount of variation possible due to non-fat weight change,
and to delay the measurement interval long enough that fat changes are
likely to be large enough to overpower non-fat weight changes.

That's bad science and bad control engineering because it completely
overlooks the possibility that much better weight control might be
achieved by a quicker acting control regime. There's even the
possibility that weight control is a difficult enough task, like
bicycle riding, that while good control is possible by making small
corrections to small changes, whereas waiting for larger changes risks
causing larger unstable swings and you fall off.

It's certainly possible for me to put on one pound a day through
overeating, and I'd like to be able to notice that and put the brakes
on gently as soon as possible, rather than waiting for a week while I
put on 7lbs and then have to lose it again. I'm suspicious that yo-yo
dieting of the gain-7-lose-7-gain-7 kind may cause metabolic and other
changes which actually make weight harder to control.

The right thing to do in devising a control regime is to decide how
quickly you need to be able to react in order to get the best control,
and *then* do whatever you can to acquire good enough data to get as
near as possible to the ideal response regime for best control.

Imagine a doctor wanting to control the blood sugar of a diabetic and
testing at various times of day and finding numbers all over the
place. He's also a busy man who can't afford to see his patients more
than once a month. So he decides to ignore the wild fluctuations of
BG, and instead to control the patient's diet and medication by taking
A1C once a month.

That's as stupid as the drunk who was found crawling around under a
street light looking for his door key. He'd actually lost his key by
his front door, but it was too dark to look over there, so instead he
was looking under the light where it was easier to see.

--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

[Chris Malcolm]

GysdeJongh <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Nicky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]..
>>
>> "Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]..
>>
>>> Incidentally, I used the scales daily from the day of
>>> diagnosis. And still do when I'm home.
>>
>> That behaviour would earn you air sucked through teeth and a headshake
>> from some regulars of the low-carb group : ) Their argument seems to be
>> that daily fluctuation can be greater than the 5lb band the STOP Regain
>> bunch operate within, and weighing weekly or even monthly is better. Not
>> that I've noticed that - my swings are around the 1lb mark, and I'd rather
>> fix small deviations than large ones... I do only write down my weight on
>> Mondays, though : )


> Hi Nicky,
> yes you are right of course.

> The swings get less if you do this always at the same time in the morning on
> an empty stomag and just after taking the shower and "using the bath room"
> as they say in England.

> I make a Lowess fit of all the past data and use that and the last
> measurement to fit my bodyweight for today.Which removes , in my practice ,
> all the uncertainty.But then..... you have to be a statistics nerd to do
> that

A Loess fit? That's a pretty serious amount of computation! Does it
give you any better results than a simple decaying average? It
certainly would if hidden in the noisy data were some kind of complex
mathematical model with repetitive features or an importantly specific
shape of long term development, but is that really the kind of thing
that might be going on in your weight changes?

--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

[Chris Malcolm]

Alan S <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 18:33:03 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
> <[email protected]> wrote:

>>Susan wrote:
>>:: x-no-archive: yes
>>::
>>:: W. Baker wrote:
>>::
>>::: I have found that I must weigh myself every day or pounds can slip
>>::: back on too easily. I have maintained a loss of about 60-64 lbs
>>::: for almost 20 years with this method. Now,if I could only loose
>>::: anoher 40 or so, i would be thrilled!
>>:::
>>::: I never understood that "don't weigh yourself" advice, but then I
>>::: am nt a dietician .
>>::
>>:: Me, too, Wendy. I weigh myself every a.m., naked, bladder empty,
>>:: hair dry, before eating... you get the idea. :-) One to 3 lbs of
>>:: water weight creep on if I've eaten some starch carbs, and I make
>>:: sure to get them off within 24-48 hours. Mostly, though, I stay
>>:: within a 1 lb. range, toeing the line that keeps me from regaining.
>>::
>>:: It's been fun buying all new clothes, and I've given away all the
>>:: larger ones, so I *have* to stay this thin! :-)
>>
>>Yes, getting rid of your "fat" clothes is another trick!
>>

> The novelty has passed, but there were two moments of joy
> I've never forgotten - and that I know are in the future for
> those newbies who arrive here needing to lose weight.

> The first was the day I tried on the uniform I wore over 20
> years ago when I was in the service - and it was loose! I
> hadn't been able to wear it since discharge.

> The second was the day I saw a slim stranger keeping pace
> with me in the mall - and realised with a shock it was my
> reflection in a shop window.

> Doesn't sound like much, but they were moments to treasure.

Ten years ago I accepted my doctor's advice that people get fatter as
they age, it didn't matter, I was still a healthy weight. So I faced
up to my age at last and got rid of the slim-cut suit I used to wear
in my twenties, a high fashion item from London's Carnaby Street in
the swinging sixties. There was no way my middle aged waist was ever
going to get into that again.

I changed my mind about my spreading waist after becoming diabetic. I
decided to get thinner. And so it happened that as the years passed
not only did that old-fashioned Carnaby Street suit come back into
fashion again, but I also got thin enough to wear it. But I'd thrown
it out!

--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

[Nicky]

"Chris Malcolm" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> Looks to me that what these folk on the low-carb group have decided to
> do is peg the smallest weight change they'll pay attention to as
> outside the amount of variation possible due to non-fat weight change,
> and to delay the measurement interval long enough that fat changes are
> likely to be large enough to overpower non-fat weight changes.
>
> That's bad science and bad control engineering because it completely
> overlooks the possibility that much better weight control might be
> achieved by a quicker acting control regime. There's even the
> possibility that weight control is a difficult enough task, like
> bicycle riding, that while good control is possible by making small
> corrections to small changes, whereas waiting for larger changes risks
> causing larger unstable swings and you fall off.

I suspect that it's fat peoples' thinking, too - whatever their current
weight : ) I (now) know that it's really not a big deal if I dip below goal
weight for a week or two, so can afford to make changes even if I'm being
tricked by non-fat fluctuations - but getting to goal was all-consuming at
one point, and I was getting fed up by people telling me I was getting too
skinny....

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/5.3/<6 T2 DX 05/2004
No Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
95/72/72Kg

[Alan S]

On 16 Oct 2006 07:13:26 GMT, Chris Malcolm
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Ten years ago I accepted my doctor's advice that people get fatter as
>they age, it didn't matter, I was still a healthy weight. So I faced
>up to my age at last and got rid of the slim-cut suit I used to wear
>in my twenties, a high fashion item from London's Carnaby Street in
>the swinging sixties. There was no way my middle aged waist was ever
>going to get into that again.
>
>I changed my mind about my spreading waist after becoming diabetic. I
>decided to get thinner. And so it happened that as the years passed
>not only did that old-fashioned Carnaby Street suit come back into
>fashion again, but I also got thin enough to wear it. But I'd thrown
>it out!

Probably something that makes all who know you extremely
grateful:-)

I don't wear the uniform either - it looks like an antique
compeared to the modern RAAF uniform. It's just nice to know
it fits.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Alhambra
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

[Hollywood]

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> GysdeJongh wrote:
> > Seen this ?
> >
> > http://www.brown.edu/Administration/...07/06-035.html
> > Most successful dieters regain the weight they lost. But new research shows
> > that a daily weigh-in - and quick adjustments to diet and exercise - can
> > significantly help dieters maintain weight loss. The clinical trial,
> > conducted by researchers at The Miriam Hospital and Brown Medical School,
> > reports results of the first program designed specifically for weight loss
> > maintenance. The study appears in the New England Journal of Medicine.

<snip>

> It seems they would advocate the tail wagging the dog.

No, I think a better analogy would be that they advocate putting a
calorometer on the dog's tail to measure the effect of whatever they
are doing to the dog.

> The tail is the weigh-in and daily weigh-ins would be a lot of
> tail-wagging.

To borrow shamelessly from MasterCard:
Scale: $24.95
One minute to Weigh in every morning: $0.42 (Average American makes
~$50K/year incl fringe)
The Measurement to assist in maintaining your new form: PRICELESS

> Much wiser is addressing the dog, which is overeating.

I suspect that you could incorporate measurement into a plan to
eliminate overeating. In fact, I would say suspect is putting it very
very cautiously without necessity.

<Chung Speak Snipped... We've all bee there before.>

-Hollywood, who always says, you will have a tough time managing what
you are not measuring (others will take this further).

[W. Baker]

Chris Malcolm <[email protected]> wrote:
: Nicky <[email protected]> wrote:

: > "Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: > news:[email protected]..

: >> Incidentally, I used the scales daily from the day of
: >> diagnosis. And still do when I'm home.

: > That behaviour would earn you air sucked through teeth and a headshake from
: > some regulars of the low-carb group : ) Their argument seems to be that
: > daily fluctuation can be greater than the 5lb band the STOP Regain bunch
: > operate within, and weighing weekly or even monthly is better.

: That's a weird argument. I do notice that my weight can vary by about
: 5lbs due to such things as my state of hydration and when I last had a
: crap. It's not difficult to avoid such fluctuations intruding into
: your data collection by standardising the conditions of
: measurement. It's also not difficult, if such daily variability is
: impossible to avoid, to use a statistical smoothing procedure on the
: data.

: The purpose of the weighing is to control weight changes due to
: putting on fat, but not to have the fat control regime disturbed by
: reacting to non-fat fluctuations in weight.

<snipped tons of science>

Quite simply, and without all the heavy lifting, I know tht if I have a
late, large dinner, even if not full of fat and calories, I will have a
higher weight in the morning. I still weigh myself, just to know the
"dmage", but I don't worry, but eat lightly tht day. It is the second day
weight that tells me if it was a temporary gain or something more serious.
Kind of a rule of thumb tht works for me. I don't like to skip a day
because that can become a habit far too easily.

I think there is no need for all the graphing and statistical anaylsis,
unless you like to spend time that way. Just a little common sense works
here.

Wendy

[Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD]

Hollywood wrote:
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > GysdeJongh wrote:
> > > Seen this ?
> > >
> > > http://www.brown.edu/Administration/...07/06-035.html
> > > Most successful dieters regain the weight they lost. But new research shows
> > > that a daily weigh-in - and quick adjustments to diet and exercise - can
> > > significantly help dieters maintain weight loss. The clinical trial,
> > > conducted by researchers at The Miriam Hospital and Brown Medical School,
> > > reports results of the first program designed specifically for weight loss
> > > maintenance. The study appears in the New England Journal of Medicine.
>
> <snip>
>
> > It seems they would advocate the tail wagging the dog.
>
> No, I think a better analogy would be that they advocate putting a
> calorometer on the dog's tail to measure the effect of whatever they
> are doing to the dog.

Just as meaningless.

> > The tail is the weigh-in and daily weigh-ins would be a lot of
> > tail-wagging.
>
> To borrow shamelessly from MasterCard:
> Scale: $24.95
> One minute to Weigh in every morning: $0.42 (Average American makes
> ~$50K/year incl fringe)
> The Measurement to assist in maintaining your new form: PRICELESS

Watching one's weight fluctuate from day to day while still overeating
without a clue about how much one is eating: WORTHLESS.

Life without faith in LORD Jesus Christ: MEANINGLESS.

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...2672896d36d4b?

May GOD continue to mercifully keep your heart beating to give you time
to understand this, dear neighbor Hollywood whom I love
unconditionally.

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit

As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...ad7fe68478acf?

[Hollywood]

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> Hollywood wrote:

> > To borrow shamelessly from MasterCard:
> > Scale: $24.95
> > One minute to Weigh in every morning: $0.42 (Average American makes
> > ~$50K/year incl fringe)
> > The Measurement to assist in maintaining your new form: PRICELESS
>
> Watching one's weight fluctuate from day to day while still overeating
> without a clue about how much one is eating: WORTHLESS.

Hrm. Would you say that monitoring once a week is worthwhile? How about
once a month? Annually? Or should we just toss the scale and any other
way of measuring progress? I would say that's dopey.

I weigh daily. Do I get wigged by a one or two day fluctuation? No.
Should anyone else, no. But, what if it stays on for two weeks? Then, I
would like to know when it first showed up so I can figure what caused
it. If you weigh scientifically (I weigh at the same time of day, on
the same scale, in the same clothes {none}, after the shower, and after
evacuation), I think you can have some real data of value towards
what's going on with you.

Do I think the scale is the only metric? No. Do I think it's the best?
No again. Do I think it's the easiest way to get regular data that is
somewhat relevant to what I'm up to? You betcha.

Again, if you are not measuring in some way, you are going to have a
difficult time reaching goals and managing the process. If your goals
aren't something you can measure against, you are going to have a hard
time knowing that you have gotten to them or where you are relative to
them.

I know we should take it on faith that it's working, but:
1- I wouldn't run my business like that
2- I wouldn't ask my supervisors to run me like that
3- I wouldn't run my projects like that
4- I wouldn't manage my investments like that

So why would I manage myself like that? I am sure that you are
different. I am sure that your way works for you. But I am sure that
your way is not the One True Way for measurement just as the 2PD-OMER
Diet is not the One True Way for weight loss and health management.

-Hollywood, who wants to share his spreadsheet with you.

[Alice Faber]

In article <[email protected]>,
Chris Malcolm <[email protected]> wrote:

> Nicky <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]..
>
> >> Incidentally, I used the scales daily from the day of
> >> diagnosis. And still do when I'm home.
>
> > That behaviour would earn you air sucked through teeth and a headshake from
> > some regulars of the low-carb group : ) Their argument seems to be that
> > daily fluctuation can be greater than the 5lb band the STOP Regain bunch
> > operate within, and weighing weekly or even monthly is better.
>
> That's a weird argument. I do notice that my weight can vary by about
> 5lbs due to such things as my state of hydration and when I last had a
> crap. It's not difficult to avoid such fluctuations intruding into
> your data collection by standardising the conditions of
> measurement. It's also not difficult, if such daily variability is
> impossible to avoid, to use a statistical smoothing procedure on the
> data.

Two factors. On the low carb group, there are a lot of folks who
overgeneralize from their own experience (not a problem unique to that
group!). Also, a lot of newbies over-obsess about not seeing a downward
trend each and every time they weigh, even if they've begun an exercise
program and are building muscle. The parallel recommendation to not
weighing every day is to keep track of body size, by a set of
measurements and by "reference" clothes (like Alan S's old uniform!).
Me, I don't own a scale, and have no intention of buying one. I pay
attention to clothing fit; if jeans become too tight, I have to do
something, and if they become too loose, I have to buy new ones! But I'm
not gonna tell someone who likes plotting things in Excel and
calculating moving averages not to do so; moving averages are cool, just
not for me.

--
"and the snark alert level has reached "fuschia""
---zig zigalo homes in on the meat of the matter

[Hollywood]

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> GysdeJongh wrote:
> > Seen this ?
> >
> > http://www.brown.edu/Administration/...07/06-035.html
> > Most successful dieters regain the weight they lost. But new research shows
> > that a daily weigh-in - and quick adjustments to diet and exercise - can
> > significantly help dieters maintain weight loss. The clinical trial,
> > conducted by researchers at The Miriam Hospital and Brown Medical School,
> > reports results of the first program designed specifically for weight loss
> > maintenance. The study appears in the New England Journal of Medicine.
> >
> > Unlike other obesity studies, which focus on how to lose weight, the "STOP
> > Regain" trial tested a method that taught participants how to keep those
> > pounds from coming back - regardless of the method they used to lose the
> > weight in the first place.
> >
> > Self-regulation is the core of STOP Regain
> > Rena Wing, professor of psychiatry and human behavior at Brown Medical
> > School, directs the Weight Control and Diabetes Research Center at The
> > Miriam Hospital. Weight reduction is only part of the battle. Knowing how to
> > keep pounds off is key.
>
> It seems they would advocate the tail wagging the dog.
>
> The tail is the weigh-in and daily weigh-ins would be a lot of
> tail-wagging.
>
> Much wiser is addressing the dog, which is overeating.

By the way, I forgot. Where is your peer reviewed study? They actually
created a study with a control group and two different versions of
intervention. Then they followed them for 18 months. They logged all
this in such a way that it passed the peer review at the New England
Journal of Medicine, one of the premier journals catering to medical
research.

I missed your paper on the 2PD-OMER Diet's efficacy when compared to
other diets, with proper controls and measurements. Maybe it wasn't in
NEJM but in Lancet or some other prestigious peer reviewed journal of
medical research. Like I said, I must have missed it.

-Hollywood, who thinks weighing properly can have an important role to
play in loss and maintenance.

[Roger Zoul]

Alice Faber wrote:
:: In article <[email protected]>,
:: Chris Malcolm <[email protected]> wrote:
::
::: Nicky <[email protected]> wrote:
:::
:::: "Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
:::: news:[email protected]..
:::
::::: Incidentally, I used the scales daily from the day of
::::: diagnosis. And still do when I'm home.
:::
:::: That behaviour would earn you air sucked through teeth and a
:::: headshake from some regulars of the low-carb group : ) Their
:::: argument seems to be that daily fluctuation can be greater than
:::: the 5lb band the STOP Regain bunch operate within, and weighing
:::: weekly or even monthly is better.
:::
::: That's a weird argument. I do notice that my weight can vary by
::: about 5lbs due to such things as my state of hydration and when I
::: last had a crap. It's not difficult to avoid such fluctuations
::: intruding into your data collection by standardising the conditions
::: of
::: measurement. It's also not difficult, if such daily variability is
::: impossible to avoid, to use a statistical smoothing procedure on the
::: data.
::
:: Two factors. On the low carb group, there are a lot of folks who
:: overgeneralize from their own experience (not a problem unique to
:: that group!). Also, a lot of newbies over-obsess about not seeing a
:: downward trend each and every time they weigh, even if they've begun
:: an exercise program and are building muscle. The parallel
:: recommendation to not weighing every day is to keep track of body
:: size, by a set of measurements and by "reference" clothes (like Alan
:: S's old uniform!). Me, I don't own a scale, and have no intention of
:: buying one. I pay attention to clothing fit; if jeans become too
:: tight, I have to do something, and if they become too loose, I have
:: to buy new ones! But I'm not gonna tell someone who likes plotting
:: things in Excel and calculating moving averages not to do so; moving
:: averages are cool, just not for me.
::

Freaking out over what the scale says is definitely not a characteristic of
people just on the low carb newsgroup, by any means. It's more a function
of the individual dieter.However, on low carb, one can get jumps that aren't
indicative of fat gain (when eating too many carbs after geing low for a
sustained period of time so as to deplete glucose) that typically won't
happen on low fat diets. That might cause a little bit of extra fear for
some dieters. Those folks generally receive a recommendation of not weigh
every day.

Personally, I don't find any need to plot in excel or compute moving
averages. I just need to see the number on a daily basis. I can typically
remember a number that's important to me with ease. So, beyond seeing that
number I don't need to do much else other than not pig out. Little real
impact on life.

[GysdeJongh]

"Chris Malcolm" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> GysdeJongh <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Nicky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]..
>>>
>>> "Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]..
>>>
>>>> Incidentally, I used the scales daily from the day of
>>>> diagnosis. And still do when I'm home.
>>>
>>> That behaviour would earn you air sucked through teeth and a headshake
>>> from some regulars of the low-carb group : ) Their argument seems to be
>>> that daily fluctuation can be greater than the 5lb band the STOP Regain
>>> bunch operate within, and weighing weekly or even monthly is better. Not
>>> that I've noticed that - my swings are around the 1lb mark, and I'd
>>> rather
>>> fix small deviations than large ones... I do only write down my weight
>>> on
>>> Mondays, though : )
>
>
>> Hi Nicky,
>> yes you are right of course.
>
>> The swings get less if you do this always at the same time in the morning
>> on
>> an empty stomag and just after taking the shower and "using the bath
>> room"
>> as they say in England.
>
>> I make a Lowess fit of all the past data and use that and the last
>> measurement to fit my bodyweight for today.Which removes , in my practice
>> ,
>> all the uncertainty.But then..... you have to be a statistics nerd to do
>> that
>
> A Loess fit? That's a pretty serious amount of computation! Does it
> give you any better results than a simple decaying average? It
> certainly would if hidden in the noisy data were some kind of complex
> mathematical model with repetitive features or an importantly specific
> shape of long term development, but is that really the kind of thing
> that might be going on in your weight changes?


Hi Chris Malcolm,
I really don't know

We used Lowess for all kind of chaotic behaviour.
Things like the weather.

Some times my body weight is as predictable as the weather

Gys

[Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD]

Hollywood wrote:
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > Hollywood wrote:
>
> > > To borrow shamelessly from MasterCard:
> > > Scale: $24.95
> > > One minute to Weigh in every morning: $0.42 (Average American makes
> > > ~$50K/year incl fringe)
> > > The Measurement to assist in maintaining your new form: PRICELESS
> >
> > Watching one's weight fluctuate from day to day while still overeating
> > without a clue about how much one is eating: WORTHLESS.
>
> Hrm. Would you say that monitoring once a week is worthwhile?

No.

> How about once a month?

Ok.

> Annually?

Ok.

> Or should we just toss the scale and any other way of measuring progress?

No.

> I would say that's dopey.

You may say anything you choose. You have the free will that GOD has
generously given all souls including those belonging to fig trees (Mark
11:12-14, 20).

> I weigh daily.

Your choice.

> Do I get wigged by a one or two day fluctuation? No.
> Should anyone else, no. But, what if it stays on for two weeks? Then, I
> would like to know when it first showed up so I can figure what caused
> it.

Either with or without the daily weighing, a tighter fit around the
waistline would indicate the cause has been from overeating.

> If you weigh scientifically (I weigh at the same time of day, on
> the same scale, in the same clothes {none}, after the shower, and after
> evacuation), I think you can have some real data of value towards
> what's going on with you.

See above.

> Do I think the scale is the only metric? No. Do I think it's the best?
> No again. Do I think it's the easiest way to get regular data that is
> somewhat relevant to what I'm up to? You betcha.

Tail wagging.

> Again, if you are not measuring in some way, you are going to have a
> difficult time reaching goals and managing the process. If your goals
> aren't something you can measure against, you are going to have a hard
> time knowing that you have gotten to them or where you are relative to
> them.

The dog is the quantity of food being eaten.

> I know we should take it on faith that it's working, but:
> 1- I wouldn't run my business like that
> 2- I wouldn't ask my supervisors to run me like that
> 3- I wouldn't run my projects like that
> 4- I wouldn't manage my investments like that

Folks automatically know it is working by the increasing looseness of
their clothes around the waistline.

> So why would I manage myself like that? I am sure that you are
> different. I am sure that your way works for you. But I am sure that
> your way is not the One True Way for measurement just as the 2PD-OMER
> Diet is not the One True Way for weight loss and health management.

The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet.

The heart of the Approach, which is "eat less," is true while "eat
right and exercise" is false when addressing the cause of folks
becoming more overweight.

May GOD mercifully continue to keep your heart beating to give you time
to understand this, dear neighbor Hollywood whom I love
unconditionally.

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit

As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...ad7fe68478acf?

[Hollywood]

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> Hollywood wrote:

> > Or should we just toss the scale and any other way of measuring progress?
>
> No.

Thank you.

> > I would say that's dopey.
>
> You may say anything you choose. You have the free will that GOD has
> generously given all souls including those belonging to fig trees (Mark
> 11:12-14, 20).

Even you like the scale once a month. So you might agree (if your GOD
allows you to) that tossing the scale and all other forms of
measurement would be dopey. Amazing. We can agree on something.

> > I weigh daily.
>
> Your choice.
>
> > Do I get wigged by a one or two day fluctuation? No.
> > Should anyone else, no. But, what if it stays on for two weeks? Then, I
> > would like to know when it first showed up so I can figure what caused
> > it.
>
> Either with or without the daily weighing, a tighter fit around the
> waistline would indicate the cause has been from overeating.

Maybe for a short guy like you. I am 6'2" tall. Five lbs on me is not
much at all. When I get to my goal, that's going to be less than 2% of
total weight. I suppose that with the proper religious instruction my
senses will get better and I will be able to notice even a 1%
fluctuation just by the amount of stretch in the waistband of my suit
pants. I'm not there yet.

Isn't this "waistband" approach just another way of measuring
progress/maintenance? In the 20+ that I have lost to date, it is one of
the markers I look at. It's not the only one, because it relies on too
many bad rulers (memory is bad... read "Stumbling on Happiness" for a
thorough evisceration of memory... also my pants are bad. Wife/I
might've shrunk them in the wash. Lastly, the time gap is bad. I rotate
through 4 suits, a pair of suit pants, two pairs of khakis and three
pairs of jeans. My suits were fitted at different times in my life.
Recalling how this pair fits versus last time is very sloppy). I will
grant you that the scale has slop in it too (I'm talking about the
daily fluctuations that people have). But that slop is the same slop
that's in the "waistband approach" you advocate. With the scale, I can
fix the memory problem (excel does nicely... if you were to perform a
study, you might get familiar with it). I can fix the changing
ruler/shrunk pants problem (my scale retares everytime I turn it on).
And I can fix the many ruler/many pants problem (I have but one scale
and it is the only scale I weigh with).

If you read a fuller write up of the study, you will find that they are
not just weighing everyday. They are getting incentives to keep it in
the green zone (less than 3lbs gained) and are given help when they get
over 3lbs. They worked with three groups: 1)a monthly newsletter,
non-incentive, non-intervention group, 2)an email based intervention
group and 3) a one-on-one intervention group. They could have done one
group that was left to their own devices, but that would raise ethical
questions given the general 95% recidivism rate for dieters. And,
amazingly enough, they found that the more you bug people, and the more
on top of it your people are, the less recidivism you see. By a lot.
That they conducted this study with a control group (the newsletter
group), got it peer reviewed and published in one of the most
prestigious journals of medicine there is (NEJM), suggests to me a few
hints towards making it work. When your "waistband" approach is tested
with a control group (perhaps people who weigh daily) for over a year
(this one went 18 months... unclear if that's a funding issue or a
"that's when they're in the clear" issue or "that's when we got bored")
and published in a prestigious peer reviewed publication, I will dump
my scale and use the waistband.

> > Do I think the scale is the only metric? No. Do I think it's the best?
> > No again. Do I think it's the easiest way to get regular data that is
> > somewhat relevant to what I'm up to? You betcha.
>
> Tail wagging.

Hrm. What if the dog enjoys wagging the tail? What is there is a health
benefit to tail wagging? This metaphor is getting a little extended,
but I think it's still workable. I am a wonk. Total wonk. Among my MBA
peers at my job, I am the one mos liable to build a spreadsheet. In my
blog over at SportingNews, I use the numbers to break things down at a
different level, and apply management science, as I understand it, to
the task. Naturally, I need a wonky approach to weight loss and health
management. It's about increasing my involvement and therefore my
chances of success. So, in this case, the dog enjoys wagging the tail
and the tail wagging enhances the dog's shot at success. A less
measured approach, with fuzzy data (ie the "waistband approach") simply
will not provide the same benefit for this dog.

> Folks automatically know it is working by the increasing looseness of
> their clothes around the waistline.

See above. Again, after you do your control group containing, peer
reviewed and published study of the 2PD-OMER Diet, you can then, among
the survivors, do a control group, peer reviewed, published study on
your "waistband approach." Till then, you are being that first one to
cast stones.

> The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet.
>
> The heart of the Approach, which is "eat less," is true while "eat
> right and exercise" is false when addressing the cause of folks
> becoming more overweight.

Eating less is a diet. You are altering food input with the goal of
losing weight or improving health. That is a DIET! If you are not going
to use the language properly, please do not use it at all. This kind of
fuzzy communication where a diet isn't a diet is just obfuscation
designed to confuse people. The 2PD-OMER Diet may very well be an
approach, but it is an approach to dieting. I do not know why you don't
get this. Perhaps if I find the equivalent words in Mandarin, you will
get it.

-Hollywood, who has posted three links to dictionary definitions of
"Diet", apparently in vain.

[Noway2]

Hollywood wrote:
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > Hollywood wrote:
> I do not know why you don't
> get this. Perhaps if I find the equivalent words in Mandarin, you will
> get it.
>
> -Hollywood, who has posted three links to dictionary definitions of
> "Diet", apparently in vain.

I doubt if Mandarin would work either as I don't think there are any
words that are small enough in any language for him to "get it", with
the exception of Ebonics which has half words like mother. If the
words of his own God aren't enough for him, how is anything that a mere
person comes up with going to be sufficient?

It continues to amuse me, how he goes on and on claiming to be
spreading the word of god, and to love us all, and that it is his love
of man that drives him. The part that I find so comical, though, is
that he fails to see the how he has failed to live up to his own dogma.
If Chung were really as good of a Christian as he claims, he would
demonstrating it by show ing respect for others and take his posts
elsewhere.

I am not a Christian and have spent little time studying Christianity,
but from what little I do know about its teaching it is clear to me
that Chung doesn't truely understand the meaning either.

Chung: Least you get some idea that you need to start praying for my
soul, I will tell you that I have chosen my path and I am happy with
it. What I really don't get, though, is why you doen't take it
somehwere other than an LC newsgroup?

[Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD]

Hollywood wrote:
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > Hollywood wrote:
>
> > > Or should we just toss the scale and any other way of measuring progress?
> >
> > No.
>
> Thank you.

You are welcome.

All thanks and praises belong to GOD, Whom I love with all my heart,
soul, mind, and strength.

> > > I would say that's dopey.
> >
> > You may say anything you choose. You have the free will that GOD has
> > generously given all souls including those belonging to fig trees (Mark
> > 11:12-14, 20).
>
> Even you like the scale once a month.

Measuring bodyweight even monthly is not necessary for folks using the
2PD-OMER Approach.

> So you might agree (if your GOD
> allows you to) that tossing the scale and all other forms of
> measurement would be dopey. Amazing. We can agree on something.

A person weighing his/her meals to keep from eating over the optimal
amount will not need to know his/her bodyweight to become and stay
lean&trim.

> > > I weigh daily.
> >
> > Your choice.
> >
> > > Do I get wigged by a one or two day fluctuation? No.
> > > Should anyone else, no. But, what if it stays on for two weeks? Then, I
> > > would like to know when it first showed up so I can figure what caused
> > > it.
> >
> > Either with or without the daily weighing, a tighter fit around the
> > waistline would indicate the cause has been from overeating.
>
> Maybe for a short guy like you.

My height is average.

> I am 6'2" tall.

Does not matter.

> Five lbs on me is not
> much at all.

It will still be about 5 inches at the waistline if the 5 lbs is
visceral adipose tissue (VAT) which is pathological.

> When I get to my goal, that's going to be less than 2% of
> total weight. I suppose that with the proper religious instruction my
> senses will get better and I will be able to notice even a 1%
> fluctuation just by the amount of stretch in the waistband of my suit
> pants. I'm not there yet.
>
> Isn't this "waistband" approach just another way of measuring
> progress/maintenance?

No. It is simply an awareness.

> In the 20+ that I have lost to date, it is one of
> the markers I look at. It's not the only one, because it relies on too
> many bad rulers (memory is bad... read "Stumbling on Happiness" for a
> thorough evisceration of memory... also my pants are bad. Wife/I
> might've shrunk them in the wash. Lastly, the time gap is bad. I rotate
> through 4 suits, a pair of suit pants, two pairs of khakis and three
> pairs of jeans. My suits were fitted at different times in my life.
> Recalling how this pair fits versus last time is very sloppy). I will
> grant you that the scale has slop in it too (I'm talking about the
> daily fluctuations that people have). But that slop is the same slop
> that's in the "waistband approach" you advocate. With the scale, I can
> fix the memory problem (excel does nicely... if you were to perform a
> study, you might get familiar with it). I can fix the changing
> ruler/shrunk pants problem (my scale retares everytime I turn it on).
> And I can fix the many ruler/many pants problem (I have but one scale
> and it is the only scale I weigh with).
>
> If you read a fuller write up of the study, you will find that they are
> not just weighing everyday. They are getting incentives to keep it in
> the green zone (less than 3lbs gained) and are given help when they get
> over 3lbs. They worked with three groups: 1)a monthly newsletter,
> non-incentive, non-intervention group, 2)an email based intervention
> group and 3) a one-on-one intervention group. They could have done one
> group that was left to their own devices, but that would raise ethical
> questions given the general 95% recidivism rate for dieters. And,
> amazingly enough, they found that the more you bug people, and the more
> on top of it your people are, the less recidivism you see. By a lot.
> That they conducted this study with a control group (the newsletter
> group), got it peer reviewed and published in one of the most
> prestigious journals of medicine there is (NEJM), suggests to me a few
> hints towards making it work. When your "waistband" approach is tested
> with a control group (perhaps people who weigh daily) for over a year
> (this one went 18 months... unclear if that's a funding issue or a
> "that's when they're in the clear" issue or "that's when we got bored")
> and published in a prestigious peer reviewed publication, I will dump
> my scale and use the waistband.

I suspect you believe "Stop world hunger" is the truth and not a
marketing ploy.

> > > Do I think the scale is the only metric? No. Do I think it's the best?
> > > No again. Do I think it's the easiest way to get regular data that is
> > > somewhat relevant to what I'm up to? You betcha.
> >
> > Tail wagging.
>
> Hrm. What if the dog enjoys wagging the tail? What is there is a health
> benefit to tail wagging? This metaphor is getting a little extended,
> but I think it's still workable. I am a wonk. Total wonk. Among my MBA
> peers at my job, I am the one mos liable to build a spreadsheet. In my
> blog over at SportingNews, I use the numbers to break things down at a
> different level, and apply management science, as I understand it, to
> the task. Naturally, I need a wonky approach to weight loss and health
> management. It's about increasing my involvement and therefore my
> chances of success. So, in this case, the dog enjoys wagging the tail
> and the tail wagging enhances the dog's shot at success. A less
> measured approach, with fuzzy data (ie the "waistband approach") simply
> will not provide the same benefit for this dog.

I suspect you believe a person when s/he says "I am so hungry that I am
starving."

> > Folks automatically know it is working by the increasing looseness of
> > their clothes around the waistline.
>
> See above. Again, after you do your control group containing, peer
> reviewed and published study of the 2PD-OMER Diet, you can then, among
> the survivors, do a control group, peer reviewed, published study on
> your "waistband approach." Till then, you are being that first one to
> cast stones.

The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet.

The fact that this Approach works for permanent weightloss does not
depend on the publication of our peer-review study.

> > The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet.
> >
> > The heart of the Approach, which is "eat less," is true while "eat
> > right and exercise" is false when addressing the cause of folks
> > becoming more overweight.
>
> Eating less is a diet.

If this were true, fasting would be a diet and the 2PD-OMER Approach
would be as incompatible with true diets as true diets are incompatible
with each other.

Truth is simple.

May GOD continue to mercifully keep your heart beating to give you time
to understand this, dear neighbor Hollywood whom I love
unconditionally.

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit

As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...ad7fe68478acf?

[Hollywood]

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> Hollywood wrote:
> > Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > > Hollywood wrote:

> > Even you like the scale once a month.
>
> Measuring bodyweight even monthly is not necessary for folks using the
> 2PD-OMER Approach.

Measuring bodyweight is not NECESSARY for anyone. The question is
rather whether it helps or doesn't. This study found that it helps
people who have lost weight to maintain that loss. I think it's a
pretty credible study, given the CVs of the authors, the journal it's
been published in, and the finding. You may attempt to find the flaws
(they are there, as there is no such thing as the perfect study), but
their program showed good results. Better than good. And they like
weighing. But, there were the control group, and a full 28% of them
didn't gain back more than 5 lbs in 18 months, so it's clearly not
necessary. But if it helps, and it takes five seconds, why are you
against it?

> > So you might agree (if your GOD
> > allows you to) that tossing the scale and all other forms of
> > measurement would be dopey. Amazing. We can agree on something.
>
> A person weighing his/her meals to keep from eating over the optimal
> amount will not need to know his/her bodyweight to become and stay
> lean&trim.

So, if I eat two pounds of potato chips (that'd be 32 servings... 480
grams of carbs (incl fiber), 314 g of fats and nearly 5000 calories...
in the configuration designed to have the WORST impact on BG and
insulin metabolism), and only that, I can pitch my scale? I thought you
were worried about LPO.

Again, you miscontrue the question. It is not a question of need. Need
is air. It is a question of positive impact on outcome. While I'm
certain that people who follow the 2PD-OMER Diet have no problem
maintaining for all time (and can probably do without air), people who
live in the real world apparently need more help than you offer with
your "waistband approach."

> > > Either with or without the daily weighing, a tighter fit around the
> > > waistline would indicate the cause has been from overeating.
> >
> > Maybe for a short guy like you.
>
> My height is average.

Then you are short standing next to me.

> > Isn't this "waistband" approach just another way of measuring
> > progress/maintenance?
>
> No. It is simply an awareness.

Semantics. That's 30% of you. When you weigh on the scale, you are
aware of your weight. When you break out the tape measure, you are
aware of your measurements. When your pants don't fit right, you are
aware of your measurements (or a bad experiment with hot water, or a
faulty memory). It's a measurement, whether it is well calibrated or
not. I suspect that this is why I fail to find a clinical report on the
efficacy of the 2PD-OMER diet against other diets. It is because no one
will publish a study with the title "Food Intake Restrictions Aid Pant
Fitting by 30%"

> I suspect you believe "Stop world hunger" is the truth and not a
> marketing ploy.

I suspect you thought that the stick figures that were paraded in front
of us from Ethiopia in the 80's were actually fine, and just naturally
following your 2PD-OMER Diet. I suspect those skeletal jews we see film
of during the Holocaust were actually just working the 2PD-OMER diet
too.

I guess you also think you can live in the third world on less than a
dollar a day.

> I suspect you believe a person when s/he says "I am so hungry that I am
> starving."

That's a metaphor your moron. I believe that they are hungry. Perhaps
very much so. Probably, they are doing a low fat version of the 2PD
OMER Diet.

> The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet.
>
> The fact that this Approach works for permanent weightloss does not
> depend on the publication of our peer-review study.

Since it has never been studied by anyone but you, and your statistics
are of the 100% efficacy type (aka completely unbelievable until
reproduced clinically by someone who isn't blinded by faith and making
a priori assumptions to put it kindly), your claims cannot be believed.
When people go out and find something, they generally report it so that
others can evaluate it. That's the underlying assumption and big
benefit of the peer review, publication system. It filters out the
garbage by the process. Since you have not subjected your work to that
process, we can only assume it would filter out in the process if it
were subjected.

In other words, until you have someone other than you report on your
diet's efficacy at short term, long term or lifetime weight loss, with
some charts, statistics, pictures, whatever, from a soundly designed
study, no one with a brain in their head is going to believe you.You
are simply unbelievable with natural reason.

> > Eating less is a diet.
>
> If this were true, fasting would be a diet and the 2PD-OMER Approach
> would be as incompatible with true diets as true diets are incompatible
> with each other.

Whatever. That's nonsense on it's face. Fasting is a form of diet.
Diets, as we understand the concept in the English speaking world, can
be done together. I have done, very compatibly the Warrior Diet with
the Step Diet with the Atkins Diet.

I will say it again. If you decide to eliminate certain foods, or limit
your intake of food, you are dieting, you are a dieter, and the
approach you are following is a diet. Clearly, your limit of an Omer a
day is a DIET. As restricting intake is the only discernable portion of
the 2PD-OMER diet, it is clearly a diet, the people who do it are
dieting and they are dieters.

> Truth is simple.

I concur. Weighing helps people maintain loss and the 2PD-OMER Diet is
a diet.

-Hollywood, who'll take the word of an 18 month study in NEJM by
reputable authors over the word of CHUNG (or whoever speaks to/though
him) any day.

[Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD]

Hollywood wrote:
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > Hollywood wrote:
> > > Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > > > Hollywood wrote:
>
> > > Even you like the scale once a month.
> >
> > Measuring bodyweight even monthly is not necessary for folks using the
> > 2PD-OMER Approach.
>
> Measuring bodyweight is not NECESSARY for anyone. The question is
> rather whether it helps or doesn't. This study found that it helps
> people who have lost weight to maintain that loss. I think it's a
> pretty credible study, given the CVs of the authors, the journal it's
> been published in, and the finding. You may attempt to find the flaws
> (they are there, as there is no such thing as the perfect study), but
> their program showed good results. Better than good. And they like
> weighing. But, there were the control group, and a full 28% of them
> didn't gain back more than 5 lbs in 18 months, so it's clearly not
> necessary. But if it helps, and it takes five seconds, why are you
> against it?

It is wiser for the dog to wag the tail than for the tail to wag the
dog.

> > > So you might agree (if your GOD
> > > allows you to) that tossing the scale and all other forms of
> > > measurement would be dopey. Amazing. We can agree on something.
> >
> > A person weighing his/her meals to keep from eating over the optimal
> > amount will not need to know his/her bodyweight to become and stay
> > lean&trim.
>
> So, if I eat two pounds of potato chips (that'd be 32 servings... 480
> grams of carbs (incl fiber), 314 g of fats and nearly 5000 calories...
> in the configuration designed to have the WORST impact on BG and
> insulin metabolism), and only that, I can pitch my scale? I thought you
> were worried about LPO.

It is unlikely that your doctor who is supervising your use of the
2PD-OMER Approach would approve your dovetailing the Approach with the
potato chip diet.

> Again, you miscontrue the question. It is not a question of need. Need
> is air. It is a question of positive impact on outcome. While I'm
> certain that people who follow the 2PD-OMER Diet have no problem
> maintaining for all time (and can probably do without air), people who
> live in the real world apparently need more help than you offer with
> your "waistband approach."

When you know the cause (overeating) of the problem (obesity),
addressing the cause (overeating) of the problem (obesity) solves the
problem (obesity).

Truth is simple.

> > > > Either with or without the daily weighing, a tighter fit around the
> > > > waistline would indicate the cause has been from overeating.
> > >
> > > Maybe for a short guy like you.
> >
> > My height is average.
>
> Then you are short standing next to me.

You are short standing next to 8 '4" Leonid Stadnik

http://www.artukraine.com/huminterest/stadnik.htm

> > > Isn't this "waistband" approach just another way of measuring
> > > progress/maintenance?
> >
> > No. It is simply an awareness.
>
> Semantics.

No. What is qualitative is not quantitative.

> That's 30% of you. When you weigh on the scale, you are
> aware of your weight. When you break out the tape measure, you are
> aware of your measurements. When your pants don't fit right, you are
> aware of your measurements (or a bad experiment with hot water, or a
> faulty memory). It's a measurement, whether it is well calibrated or
> not. I suspect that this is why I fail to find a clinical report on the
> efficacy of the 2PD-OMER diet against other diets. It is because no one
> will publish a study with the title "Food Intake Restrictions Aid Pant
> Fitting by 30%"

Your 30% is meaningless.

> > I suspect you believe "Stop world hunger" is the truth and not a
> > marketing ploy.
>
> I suspect you thought that the stick figures that were paraded in front
> of us from Ethiopia in the 80's were actually fine, and just naturally
> following your 2PD-OMER Diet.

They likely ate on average less than 2 ounces of food per day which
would be 16 times less than those using the 2PD-OMER Approach.

> I suspect those skeletal jews we see film
> of during the Holocaust were actually just working the 2PD-OMER diet
> too.

The POWs in Nazi prison camps were subsisting for years on essentially
one slice (1-2 ounces) of bread per day so the Jews were likely getting
even less.

> I guess you also think you can live in the third world on less than a
> dollar a day.

>From firsthand experience, I know folks can go without meals for 40
days fasting day and night.

> > I suspect you believe a person when s/he says "I am so hungry that I am
> > starving."
>
> That's a metaphor your moron. I believe that they are hungry. Perhaps
> very much so. Probably, they are doing a low fat version of the 2PD
> OMER Diet.

Name-calling simply confirms that you remain lost.

> > The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet.
> >
> > The fact that this Approach works for permanent weightloss does not
> > depend on the publication of our peer-review study.
>
> Since it has never been studied by anyone but you, and your statistics
> are of the 100% efficacy type (aka completely unbelievable until
> reproduced clinically by someone who isn't blinded by faith and making
> a priori assumptions to put it kindly), your claims cannot be believed.

The 2PD-OMER Approach has been publicly available since 1998 on the
Internet. Whereas other methods have people coming forward publicly
with documentation proving failure despite adherence to the method, the
2PD-OMER has had no such detractors even when thousands of dollars were
offered as reward for documented evidence of failure to lose weight
from eating less using the 2PD-OMER Approach.

> When people go out and find something, they generally report it so that
> others can evaluate it.

The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a discovery but a solution to a problem.
Others have continued to evaluate it since it was made available since
1998.

> That's the underlying assumption and big
> benefit of the peer review, publication system.

Go ahead and name one weight-loss method that has been proven to be
efficacious for lasting (greater than 5 yr) significant (greater than
20%) weight loss in a study published in a peer-reviewed journal
**prior** to being released for public use or even **after**.

> It filters out the
> garbage by the process. Since you have not subjected your work to that
> process, we can only assume it would filter out in the process if it
> were subjected.

Your assumption is obviously wrong.

> In other words, until you have someone other than you report on your
> diet's efficacy at short term, long term or lifetime weight loss, with
> some charts, statistics, pictures, whatever, from a soundly designed
> study, no one with a brain in their head is going to believe you.

That would be your unfounded hope.

> You are simply unbelievable with natural reason.

Difficult to reconcile with the following:

http://HeartMDPhD.com/press.asp

> > > Eating less is a diet.
> >
> > If this were true, fasting would be a diet and the 2PD-OMER Approach
> > would be as incompatible with true diets as true diets are incompatible
> > with each other.
>
> Whatever.

Popular standalone sentence for those who have no regard for the truth.

> That's nonsense on it's face. Fasting is a form of diet.

It is simply not a diet in any way, shape, or form.

> Diets, as we understand the concept in the English speaking world, can
> be done together. I have done, very compatibly the Warrior Diet with
> the Step Diet with the Atkins Diet.

Let me know when you figure out how to do the Ornish Diet with the
Atkins diet.

> I will say it again. If you decide to eliminate certain foods, or limit
> your intake of food, you are dieting, you are a dieter, and the
> approach you are following is a diet.

Incorrect.

A diet is simply what people are eating.

For this reason, simply eating less is not a diet.

> Clearly, your limit of an Omer a
> day is a DIET. As restricting intake is the only discernable portion of
> the 2PD-OMER diet, it is clearly a diet, the people who do it are
> dieting and they are dieters.

Everyone's intake is restricted by the physical capacity of their
stomach, so that by your logic everyone is dieting.

Therefore, your logic is fallacious.

> > Truth is simple.
>
> I concur. Weighing helps people maintain loss and the 2PD-OMER Diet is
> a diet.

See above.

May GOD continue to mercifully keep your heart beating to help you
understand this, dear neighbor whom I love unconditionally.

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit

As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...ad7fe68478acf?

[bj]

"Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]..
>>
> My only suit is the "fat" suit. I'll just have to look gaunt
> and baggy at funerals - because I have no intention of ever
> buying another; one of the fringe benefits of retirement:-)
>

I already had something "fitting" for the last funeral I went to -- but I
did have 2 months to find something if I hadn't -- & I probably would have
sprung for a new suit if necessary since it was my father's funeral, full
honors at Arlington.

Now I have one that fits now (& would work if I got gaunt ) & one that
fits if I go up a size. Other than that, I'll just have to hope anything
"fatter" would be in the rain or cold weather so I can just wear anything &
cover up!
bj
also "retired"

[Hollywood]

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> Hollywood wrote:

> > Measuring bodyweight is not NECESSARY for anyone. The question is
> > rather whether it helps or doesn't. This study found that it helps
> > people who have lost weight to maintain that loss. I think it's a
> > pretty credible study, given the CVs of the authors, the journal it's
> > been published in, and the finding. You may attempt to find the flaws
> > (they are there, as there is no such thing as the perfect study), but
> > their program showed good results. Better than good. And they like
> > weighing. But, there were the control group, and a full 28% of them
> > didn't gain back more than 5 lbs in 18 months, so it's clearly not
> > necessary. But if it helps, and it takes five seconds, why are you
> > against it?
>
> It is wiser for the dog to wag the tail than for the tail to wag the
> dog.

I don't see this as the tail wagging the dog. I see it as something
extra to enhance the odds of successfully maintain weight loss and
successfully achieving weight loss. Clearly, you are against anything
that would enhance those goals.

In fact, I know that someone on the 2LB/Day-1Omer Diet could in fact
weigh hourly if they so wanted to, without upsetting anything in your
diet. So, I don't see why you resist the robust finding of a robust
study. Unless you just want people to fail.

> > Again, you miscontrue the question. It is not a question of need. Need
> > is air. It is a question of positive impact on outcome. While I'm
> > certain that people who follow the 2PD-OMER Diet have no problem
> > maintaining for all time (and can probably do without air), people who
> > live in the real world apparently need more help than you offer with
> > your "waistband approach."
>
> When you know the cause (overeating) of the problem (obesity),
> addressing the cause (overeating) of the problem (obesity) solves the
> problem (obesity).

You continue to misconstrue. This is not a question of the best
approach to lose weight. The study is a discussion of a series of "best
practices" from a very successful study. It does not talk about
restricting input of calories or increasing use of those calories
through extra movement. It does not weigh the merits of the Single OMER
diet. It is merely an add on that can be worked following (I suggest
even during) any diet, even yours. Weighing is obviously not the whole
answer. But I think, for many people, it can be part of the solution.
This finding supports that view.

> Truth is simple.

If it's so simple, why do you play with it?

> > > No. It is simply an awareness.
> >
> > Semantics.
>
> No. What is qualitative is not quantitative.

Qualitative! Ha! Here's the definitions of that one:
1- involving distinctions based on qualities
2- relating to or involving comparisons based on qualities

By definition, what is qualitative is not quantitative. But both are
types of analysis. If you say you are making a qualitative argument, it
is, in fact, necessarily containing qualitative MEASUREMENTS. For
instance: "These pants seem tighter today than they did the last time I
wore them." While this isn't a number, it is a measurement, whether you
like it or don't. Just cause you don't use a number, doesn't mean it's
not measured.

> > I guess you also think you can live in the third world on less than a
> > dollar a day.
>
> >From firsthand experience, I know folks can go without meals for 40
> days fasting day and night.

I'm told they get crazy visions like they think they see God or the
deer spirit or Richard Nixon. Something about lack of nourishment to
the brain. Is that what happened to you? I know, name calling is just a
sign that I'm lost.

> The 2PD-OMER Approach has been publicly available since 1998 on the
> Internet. Whereas other methods have people coming forward publicly
> with documentation proving failure despite adherence to the method, the
> 2PD-OMER has had no such detractors even when thousands of dollars were
> offered as reward for documented evidence of failure to lose weight
> from eating less using the 2PD-OMER Approach.

This is not a clinical study. It is annecdotal, at best. Considering
the source, it's hardly even that.

> > When people go out and find something, they generally report it so that
> > others can evaluate it.
>
> The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a discovery but a solution to a problem.
> Others have continued to evaluate it since it was made available since
> 1998.

It is a solution that you came up with. Or you researched it out of the
Bible. Or the Apocrypha. Or Historical Records. Or Jesus came down and
wrote it out for you. Whatever. You came up with a solution to a
problem, put it on the web, and promote it as if it is gospel. It has
never been subjected to even a short term, clinical trial that would
meet any standard for publication. I think that makes the case right
there.

> > It filters out the
> > garbage by the process. Since you have not subjected your work to that
> > process, we can only assume it would filter out in the process if it
> > were subjected.
>
> Your assumption is obviously wrong.

Not so obvious. The logical conclusions one can be led to (by your lack
of publication of even a rigorous short term clinical trials, much less
long term longitudinal studies) are pretty much as follows:
1- You have done the work and it:
a- failed to pass peer review
b- didn't back up your claims
2- You haven't done the work because:
a- you know it is unpublishable, at least in a reputable publication
b- you cannot figure out how to do the work
c- you cannot afford to do even a short term study and cannot find
anyone interesting in funding it.
d- you are afraid of the results, because you know that your so called
approach is difficult for many people to adhere to.
e- The Holy Spirit told you that research-review-publication system is
essentially a tool of the east coast, godless liberals, and therefore
not worthy of your diet.

> > In other words, until you have someone other than you report on your
> > diet's efficacy at short term, long term or lifetime weight loss, with
> > some charts, statistics, pictures, whatever, from a soundly designed
> > study, no one with a brain in their head is going to believe you.
>
> That would be your unfounded hope.

Hrm, let's look at this from outside the discussion. Someone comes to
you. They go on and on about how a dog speaks to/through them, and
quote from Dr. Seuss's books as if the books are going out of style and
contain all the answers to life today. They present an exercise system
that is inherently hard to do (let's say high level plyometrics, like
Terrel Owens does), claim that it is: 1- the only way to work out worth
the time, 2- easy to do, and 3- 100% effective forever for everyone who
tries it.

I think we would look at that person with just a tad of skepticism.
Substitue God for Dog, the New Testament for Dr. Seuss, the 2PD-OMER
diet for high level plyometrics and we have you. I know it's hard for
you to believe, but anyone looking at you from outside might be a tad
skeptical of your claims. Hence the constant questions about your
practice, your licensing history, your patients, your belief system,
your motivation, etc. Oh, and the name calling, the general mockery,
the general derision, and the general snarky tone that almost anyone
you meet on the Internet takes with you. Is this all sounding familiar?
If it isn't, you might want to read your reponses with a little more of
a dispassionate eye.

> Difficult to reconcile with the following:
>
> http://HeartMDPhD.com/press.asp

You met with a women's group, the Governmor of Georgia and donated some
money to charity. Congratulations. I met with the Secretary of Labor
the other day (I have several pictures). I also met with the Assistant
Labor Secretary for Administration and Management. We talked about how
I've lost 21 lbs since we first met. He was interested. I also
presented my ideas on health promotion as an invited expert to a
meeting of HR/Work-Life managers at the Office of Personnel Management
just last month. That was really well recieved. I have some pics of
that too. And I don't even have a website.

None of this proves that I am not insane (I assure you, I am not). Or
that I'm a genius or that my approach is the ONE TRUE APPROACH to
weight loss and management. It only proves that I have some access
(being a government wonk has priviledges). Just as your press releases
do. You can get in places. Or you could. Nothing new since April of 05.
Been a slow year, I guess.

> > Whatever.
>
> Popular standalone sentence for those who have no regard for the truth.

You cut my paragraph and then blast me for a one word sentance? These
are the tactics of SATAN. Jesus has proper respect for all speakers
before pointing out their errors. Tsk.

> > Diets, as we understand the concept in the English speaking world, can
> > be done together. I have done, very compatibly the Warrior Diet with
> > the Step Diet with the Atkins Diet.
>
> Let me know when you figure out how to do the Ornish Diet with the
> Atkins diet.

So, two diets are incompatible. That does not prove your hypothesis
that every diet is incompatible with every other diet. I, in fact, have
disproved your hypothesis. Any examples that you bring only show that
it is possible for diets to be incompatible. It does not prove that
your diet is not a diet because it can be done with Atkins or Ornish or
Warrior or whatever. If you think you have proven this, you need to
take a step back. Maybe ask the Holy Spirit.

> > I will say it again. If you decide to eliminate certain foods, or limit
> > your intake of food , you are dieting, you are a dieter, and the
> > approach you are following is a diet.
>
> Incorrect.

That's the FREAKING DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF DIET! Are you from Earth?
>From the US? Do you speak English on a daily basis? Is it a third
language?

> A diet is simply what people are eating.

That is one DEFINITION. I have presented a number of definitions that
make your "approach" a diet. It is a DIET. Your lame "it is compatible
with all diets and therefore cannot be a diet" hypothesis has been
punctured. Just for giggles, lemme kick you a full listing of the
definition of diet (Meriiam Webster Online here -- EMPHASIS ADDED):
1 a : food and drink regularly provided or consumed
b : habitual nourishment
c : the kind and amount of food prescribed for a person or animal for
a special reason
D: A REGIMEN OF EATING AND DRINKING SPARINGLY SO AS TO REDUCE ONE'S
WEIGHT <going on a diet>
2 : something provided or experienced repeatedly <a diet of Broadway
shows and nightclubs -- Frederick Wyatt>

Does 1-D sound a lot like "Gradually, decrease your food intake by a
few ounces each day as tolerated until you consume less than 2 pounds
per day?" It certainly sounds like a REGIMEN of eating sparingly
(relative to the 3-11 lbs/day that you cite as what people typically
eat) with the goal of REDUCING WEIGHT. Hrm. Seems familiar.

> For this reason, simply eating less is not a diet.

See above,

> Everyone's intake is restricted by the physical capacity of their
> stomach, so that by your logic everyone is dieting.

Don't be obtuse (I know, name calling is a sign of the lost... you can
even post the link). We are talking about reducing or altering one's
intake from what it would normally be if they were just left to eat as
they are doing so. Since a normal person cannot eat beyond the capacity
of their internal organs, that could be termed the baseline. It cannot
be considered a reduction with the goal of weight loss or maintenance.
Obtuse.

The fact of the matter is that you are against something that has been
shown to be helpful to many people. Are you an outlier? Yea, probably.
The majority of people who have lost weight can use a scale daily to
monitor their fluctuations and stay on top of it. You can check you
pants fit (BTW, my waistband is about the same as it was before, but my
pants hang a lot looser according to the wife. I cannot tell the
difference, since it has been gradual and I wear them frequently).

-Hollywood, a member of the "reality based world."

[Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD]

By simply reviewing this ...

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...0a54318dc5aa3?

.... and comparing with what you covertly snipped out below, even the
most casual observer should be able to see that you suffer from a very
strong delusion.

May GOD continue to show you HIS infinite mercy and grace in keeping
your heart beating to give you time to overcome your delusions, dear
neighbor Hollywood whom I love unconditionally.

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit

As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...ad7fe68478acf?



Hollywood wrote:
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> > Hollywood wrote:
>
> > > Measuring bodyweight is not NECESSARY for anyone. The question is
> > > rather whether it helps or doesn't. This study found that it helps
> > > people who have lost weight to maintain that loss. I think it's a
> > > pretty credible study, given the CVs of the authors, the journal it's
> > > been published in, and the finding. You may attempt to find the flaws
> > > (they are there, as there is no such thing as the perfect study), but
> > > their program showed good results. Better than good. And they like
> > > weighing. But, there were the control group, and a full 28% of them
> > > didn't gain back more than 5 lbs in 18 months, so it's clearly not
> > > necessary. But if it helps, and it takes five seconds, why are you
> > > against it?
> >
> > It is wiser for the dog to wag the tail than for the tail to wag the
> > dog.
>
> I don't see this as the tail wagging the dog. I see it as something
> extra to enhance the odds of successfully maintain weight loss and
> successfully achieving weight loss. Clearly, you are against anything
> that would enhance those goals.
>
> In fact, I know that someone on the 2LB/Day-1Omer Diet could in fact
> weigh hourly if they so wanted to, without upsetting anything in your
> diet. So, I don't see why you resist the robust finding of a robust
> study. Unless you just want people to fail.
>
> > > Again, you miscontrue the question. It is not a question of need. Need
> > > is air. It is a question of positive impact on outcome. While I'm
> > > certain that people who follow the 2PD-OMER Diet have no problem
> > > maintaining for all time (and can probably do without air), people who
> > > live in the real world apparently need more help than you offer with
> > > your "waistband approach."
> >
> > When you know the cause (overeating) of the problem (obesity),
> > addressing the cause (overeating) of the problem (obesity) solves the
> > problem (obesity).
>
> You continue to misconstrue. This is not a question of the best
> approach to lose weight. The study is a discussion of a series of "best
> practices" from a very successful study. It does not talk about
> restricting input of calories or increasing use of those calories
> through extra movement. It does not weigh the merits of the Single OMER
> diet. It is merely an add on that can be worked following (I suggest
> even during) any diet, even yours. Weighing is obviously not the whole
> answer. But I think, for many people, it can be part of the solution.
> This finding supports that view.
>
> > Truth is simple.
>
> If it's so simple, why do you play with it?
>
> > > > No. It is simply an awareness.
> > >
> > > Semantics.
> >
> > No. What is qualitative is not quantitative.
>
> Qualitative! Ha! Here's the definitions of that one:
> 1- involving distinctions based on qualities
> 2- relating to or involving comparisons based on qualities
>
> By definition, what is qualitative is not quantitative. But both are
> types of analysis. If you say you are making a qualitative argument, it
> is, in fact, necessarily containing qualitative MEASUREMENTS. For
> instance: "These pants seem tighter today than they did the last time I
> wore them." While this isn't a number, it is a measurement, whether you
> like it or don't. Just cause you don't use a number, doesn't mean it's
> not measured.
>
> > > I guess you also think you can live in the third world on less than a
> > > dollar a day.
> >
> > >From firsthand experience, I know folks can go without meals for 40
> > days fasting day and night.
>
> I'm told they get crazy visions like they think they see God or the
> deer spirit or Richard Nixon. Something about lack of nourishment to
> the brain. Is that what happened to you? I know, name calling is just a
> sign that I'm lost.
>
> > The 2PD-OMER Approach has been publicly available since 1998 on the
> > Internet. Whereas other methods have people coming forward publicly
> > with documentation proving failure despite adherence to the method, the
> > 2PD-OMER has had no such detractors even when thousands of dollars were
> > offered as reward for documented evidence of failure to lose weight
> > from eating less using the 2PD-OMER Approach.
>
> This is not a clinical study. It is annecdotal, at best. Considering
> the source, it's hardly even that.
>
> > > When people go out and find something, they generally report it so that
> > > others can evaluate it.
> >
> > The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a discovery but a solution to a problem.
> > Others have continued to evaluate it since it was made available since
> > 1998.
>
> It is a solution that you came up with. Or you researched it out of the
> Bible. Or the Apocrypha. Or Historical Records. Or Jesus came down and
> wrote it out for you. Whatever. You came up with a solution to a
> problem, put it on the web, and promote it as if it is gospel. It has
> never been subjected to even a short term, clinical trial that would
> meet any standard for publication. I think that makes the case right
> there.
>
> > > It filters out the
> > > garbage by the process. Since you have not subjected your work to that
> > > process, we can only assume it would filter out in the process if it
> > > were subjected.
> >
> > Your assumption is obviously wrong.
>
> Not so obvious. The logical conclusions one can be led to (by your lack
> of publication of even a rigorous short term clinical trials, much less
> long term longitudinal studies) are pretty much as follows:
> 1- You have done the work and it:
> a- failed to pass peer review
> b- didn't back up your claims
> 2- You haven't done the work because:
> a- you know it is unpublishable, at least in a reputable publication
> b- you cannot figure out how to do the work
> c- you cannot afford to do even a short term study and cannot find
> anyone interesting in funding it.
> d- you are afraid of the results, because you know that your so called
> approach is difficult for many people to adhere to.
> e- The Holy Spirit told you that research-review-publication system is
> essentially a tool of the east coast, godless liberals, and therefore
> not worthy of your diet.
>
> > > In other words, until you have someone other than you report on your
> > > diet's efficacy at short term, long term or lifetime weight loss, with
> > > some charts, statistics, pictures, whatever, from a soundly designed
> > > study, no one with a brain in their head is going to believe you.
> >
> > That would be your unfounded hope.
>
> Hrm, let's look at this from outside the discussion. Someone comes to
> you. They go on and on about how a dog speaks to/through them, and
> quote from Dr. Seuss's books as if the books are going out of style and
> contain all the answers to life today. They present an exercise system
> that is inherently hard to do (let's say high level plyometrics, like
> Terrel Owens does), claim that it is: 1- the only way to work out worth
> the time, 2- easy to do, and 3- 100% effective forever for everyone who
> tries it.
>
> I think we would look at that person with just a tad of skepticism.
> Substitue God for Dog, the New Testament for Dr. Seuss, the 2PD-OMER
> diet for high level plyometrics and we have you. I know it's hard for
> you to believe, but anyone looking at you from outside might be a tad
> skeptical of your claims. Hence the constant questions about your
> practice, your licensing history, your patients, your belief system,
> your motivation, etc. Oh, and the name calling, the general mockery,
> the general derision, and the general snarky tone that almost anyone
> you meet on the Internet takes with you. Is this all sounding familiar?
> If it isn't, you might want to read your reponses with a little more of
> a dispassionate eye.
>
> > Difficult to reconcile with the following:
> >
> > http://HeartMDPhD.com/press.asp
>
> You met with a women's group, the Governmor of Georgia and donated some
> money to charity. Congratulations. I met with the Secretary of Labor
> the other day (I have several pictures). I also met with the Assistant
> Labor Secretary for Administration and Management. We talked about how
> I've lost 21 lbs since we first met. He was interested. I also
> presented my ideas on health promotion as an invited expert to a
> meeting of HR/Work-Life managers at the Office of Personnel Management
> just last month. That was really well recieved. I have some pics of
> that too. And I don't even have a website.
>
> None of this proves that I am not insane (I assure you, I am not). Or
> that I'm a genius or that my approach is the ONE TRUE APPROACH to
> weight loss and management. It only proves that I have some access
> (being a government wonk has priviledges). Just as your press releases
> do. You can get in places. Or you could. Nothing new since April of 05.
> Been a slow year, I guess.
>
> > > Whatever.
> >
> > Popular standalone sentence for those who have no regard for the truth.
>
> You cut my paragraph and then blast me for a one word sentance? These
> are the tactics of SATAN. Jesus has proper respect for all speakers
> before pointing out their errors. Tsk.
>
> > > Diets, as we understand the concept in the English speaking world, can
> > > be done together. I have done, very compatibly the Warrior Diet with
> > > the Step Diet with the Atkins Diet.
> >
> > Let me know when you figure out how to do the Ornish Diet with the
> > Atkins diet.
>
> So, two diets are incompatible. That does not prove your hypothesis
> that every diet is incompatible with every other diet. I, in fact, have
> disproved your hypothesis. Any examples that you bring only show that
> it is possible for diets to be incompatible. It does not prove that
> your diet is not a diet because it can be done with Atkins or Ornish or
> Warrior or whatever. If you think you have proven this, you need to
> take a step back. Maybe ask the Holy Spirit.
>
> > > I will say it again. If you decide to eliminate certain foods, or limit
> > > your intake of food , you are dieting, you are a dieter, and the
> > > approach you are following is a diet.
> >
> > Incorrect.
>
> That's the FREAKING DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF DIET! Are you from Earth?
> >From the US? Do you speak English on a daily basis? Is it a third
> language?
>
> > A diet is simply what people are eating.
>
> That is one DEFINITION. I have presented a number of definitions that
> make your "approach" a diet. It is a DIET. Your lame "it is compatible
> with all diets and therefore cannot be a diet" hypothesis has been
> punctured. Just for giggles, lemme kick you a full listing of the
> definition of diet (Meriiam Webster Online here -- EMPHASIS ADDED):
> 1 a : food and drink regularly provided or consumed
> b : habitual nourishment
> c : the kind and amount of food prescribed for a person or animal for
> a special reason
> D: A REGIMEN OF EATING AND DRINKING SPARINGLY SO AS TO REDUCE ONE'S
> WEIGHT <going on a diet>
> 2 : something provided or experienced repeatedly <a diet of Broadway
> shows and nightclubs -- Frederick Wyatt>
>
> Does 1-D sound a lot like "Gradually, decrease your food intake by a
> few ounces each day as tolerated until you consume less than 2 pounds
> per day?" It certainly sounds like a REGIMEN of eating sparingly
> (relative to the 3-11 lbs/day that you cite as what people typically
> eat) with the goal of REDUCING WEIGHT. Hrm. Seems familiar.
>
> > For this reason, simply eating less is not a diet.
>
> See above,
>
> > Everyone's intake is restricted by the physical capacity of their
> > stomach, so that by your logic everyone is dieting.
>
> Don't be obtuse (I know, name calling is a sign of the lost... you can
> even post the link). We are talking about reducing or altering one's
> intake from what it would normally be if they were just left to eat as
> they are doing so. Since a normal person cannot eat beyond the capacity
> of their internal organs, that could be termed the baseline. It cannot
> be considered a reduction with the goal of weight loss or maintenance.
> Obtuse.
>
> The fact of the matter is that you are against something that has been
> shown to be helpful to many people. Are you an outlier? Yea, probably.
> The majority of people who have lost weight can use a scale daily to
> monitor their fluctuations and stay on top of it. You can check you
> pants fit (BTW, my waistband is about the same as it was before, but my
> pants hang a lot looser according to the wife. I cannot tell the
> difference, since it has been gradual and I wear them frequently).
>
> -Hollywood, a member of the "reality based world."