Lantus problem

[Paul M. Cook]

I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32 units
before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with beef
and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to bed at
160.

This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
something wrong?

Paul

[Kurt]

On May 20, 11:54�am, "Paul M. Cook" <pmc...@gte.net> wrote:
> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
> morning numbers. �Started at 16 units. �So last night I gave myself 32 units
> before I turned in. �Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with beef
> and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. �Morning reading - 210. �Went to bed at
> 160.
>
> This is just not helping. �I had btter luck with Byetta. �Am I doing
> something wrong?
>
> Paul

I take Lantus but I'm a Type 1 so my dose is much lower than yours. My
endo advised me to adjust it up or down depending on my numbers, but I
wouldn't recommend to anyone to make an adjustment in their medication
without first consulting with their doctor. Hopefully you are making
these adjustments under your doctor's guidance and not just
arbitrarily.

Every person is different so I don't think anyone here can, or should,
advise you to do anything different. My recommendation would be to
call your doctor and explain what is going on. They know your personal
needs and are best suited to help you. If you don't get an answer that
you find helpful you might want to seek at least a consultation with
an endocrinologist who specializes in diabetes.

Hope you get the answers you need. This diabetes is a tricky thing and
often times frustrating.

Kurt

[Susan]

x-no-archive: yes

On 5/20/2010 2:54 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
> morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32 units
> before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with beef
> and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to bed at
> 160.
>
> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
> something wrong?
>

That's not reasonably low carb, that's not even moderate carb, that's
high carb. No wonder your numbers are frustrating you.

I wonder how you'd do if instead of Mexican beans you had salad and non
starchy grilled, steamed or roasted veggies for dinner, and a very small
protein snack before bed?

Susan

[Alan S]

On Thu, 20 May 2010 11:54:40 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32 units
>before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with beef
>and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to bed at
>160.
>
>This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>something wrong?
>
>Paul
>
As a type 2 looking on, I have to wonder what you consider to be high
carb if you consider 40gms to be low.

I can handle that much at dinner, but not at breakfast or lunch. Have
you tried to discover your own limits by applying
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/new.php ?

Noting that 50 point dawn effect, do you have a bedtime snack? If so,
what is it?


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
d&e, metformin 2000 mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com (Banting's Diet)
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (Rio de Janeiro)

[Julie Bove]

"Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ht40hj$mhu$[email protected]..
>I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>units before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans
>with beef and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went
>to bed at 160.
>
> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
> something wrong?

No. Your dose is probably waaaay too low. Took me months to see any
improvement and things actually got worse, far worse before they got better.

I currently take 74 units at night and another 52 units in the morning.
But... I also have to take Novolog on a sliding scale with each meal.

I can't remember my starting dose now but I think it was 32 units. I
believe I initially bumped it up by 8 units at a time and then once there
was some improvement, went down to 4 units at a time.

[Julie Bove]

"Susan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> On 5/20/2010 2:54 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>> morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>> units
>> before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with
>> beef
>> and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to bed at
>> 160.
>>
>> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>> something wrong?
>>
>
> That's not reasonably low carb, that's not even moderate carb, that's high
> carb. No wonder your numbers are frustrating you.
>
> I wonder how you'd do if instead of Mexican beans you had salad and non
> starchy grilled, steamed or roasted veggies for dinner, and a very small
> protein snack before bed?

IMO that is NOT high carb.

[Julie Bove]

"Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> On Thu, 20 May 2010 11:54:40 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>>morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>>units
>>before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with
>>beef
>>and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to bed at
>>160.
>>
>>This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>>something wrong?
>>
>>Paul
>>
> As a type 2 looking on, I have to wonder what you consider to be high
> carb if you consider 40gms to be low.
>
> I can handle that much at dinner, but not at breakfast or lunch. Have
> you tried to discover your own limits by applying
> http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/new.php ?
>
> Noting that 50 point dawn effect, do you have a bedtime snack? If so,
> what is it?

I don't think it is high carb but I also don't think it is low carb.

[Ozgirl]

Paul M. Cook wrote:
> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in
> my morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave
> myself 32 units before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb,
> mexican beans with beef and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning
> reading - 210. Went to bed at 160.
>
> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
> something wrong?
>
> Paul

With that amount of insulin I'd hazard a guess that you are still quite
insulin resistant. Trying to match insulin (even a long acting insulin like
Lantus) to the amount of carbs you are eating can be very tricky for type
2's with strong IR. I know 40 gr doesn't sound like much carb but to a
highly insulin resistant type 2 it can be - the more carb the harder it is
to combat with insulin. Are you taking meal time boluses? Try breaking the
40gr carb into two meals/snacks at least a couple of hours between the two.
If you need more food at mealtime bulk it out with lower carb salad veggies
or cooked veggies. Same carbs, just not all in one meal. Or less beans more
meat.

[Jerry Vrooman]

"Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ht40hj$mhu$[email protected]..
> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
> morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
units
> before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with
beef
> and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to bed at
> 160.
>
> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
> something wrong?
>
> Paul
>
Lantus is a long acting insulin with a very flat curve. It is great for
meeting your basal requirement, but it is not very good for covering carbs.
No long acting insulin is. Ideally you should use Lantus for your basal. and
a fast acting insulin to cover your carbs. Figuring out how much of each can
require a lot of trial and error.

Personally I use NPH for my basal, and regular insulin to cover my carbs and
any corrections. NPH is tricky but it is cheap. It also adds a little
excitement to my otherwise boring life. Even with this regimen I still have
to restrict my carbs, and I generally eat less than 100 grams per day. They
don't make syringes big enough for me to eat a piece of carrot cake. If I
could stand going back on a low carb diet, I would get the doctor to switch
me to Lantus and just use that.

Jerry Vrooman

[StarDust]

On May 20, 11:54*am, "Paul M. Cook" <pmc...@gte.net> wrote:
> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
> morning numbers. *Started at 16 units. *So last night I gave myself 32 units
> before I turned in. *Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans withbeef
> and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. *Morning reading - 210. *Went to bed at
> 160.
>
> This is just not helping. *I had btter luck with Byetta. *Am I doing
> something wrong?
>
> Paul

Careful with beens, they're great on fiber, but high on carb.
Read the labels.
You should eat more green beens, 4gr carb /1/2 cup.
Mornings are the most sensitive for carbs, so keep it loooooow!!!!
Just eat a boiled egg with green beens, top with mayonnaise or salad
dressing, or eat ham(low fat) /w slices of English cucumber etc....
mushrooms and avocados are great too.
Keep your carb intake around 10gr's, 20 the most.
JS

[hemyd]

"Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ht40hj$mhu$[email protected]..
>I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>units before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans
>with beef and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went
>to bed at 160.
>
> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
> something wrong?
>
> Paul
>
The amount of Lantus you need (of course it may vary with the individual) is
directly related to the carbs you eat and the exercise you do. For example -
more carbs=more insulin, less carbs=less insulin, little or no exercise=more
insulin, moderate or high exercise= less insulin.

To find out how low carb or otherwise a meal is, I'd measure your blood
glucose an hour after eating. If your bg goes up a little bit, then the meal
was low carb; if it spikes (jumps up a lot), then it wasn't as low carb as
you thought.

By measuring your bg after anything new you eat, you can get a fair idea of
what the food does to your bg.

Henry. Type 2, diagnosed 1995. current HbA1c 5.8

(Before Lantus my fbg was over 160, often 200 and more. After 21 units of
Lantus nightly, it is now under 100. If I indulge in carby food, or skip
some exercise, it creeps up despite the Lantus).

[Paul M. Cook]

"Susan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> On 5/20/2010 2:54 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>> morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>> units
>> before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with
>> beef
>> and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to bed at
>> 160.
>>
>> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>> something wrong?
>>
>
> That's not reasonably low carb, that's not even moderate carb, that's high
> carb. No wonder your numbers are frustrating you.

That was my carb count for the whole day. Lantus is supposed to work for 24
hours. And my carb numbers work for me because my blood numbers have
improved. I estimate the meal at 20 or so. The meal was mostly meat. I
didn;lt go hog wild here just because I started insulin. I really really
want not good numbers but great numbers.

> I wonder how you'd do if instead of Mexican beans you had salad and non
> starchy grilled, steamed or roasted veggies for dinner, and a very small
> protein snack before bed?

I can tell you the exact same meal has always been one I eat because it does
not cause problems with my BG. But then I was on Byetta.

Paul

[Paul M. Cook]

"Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> On Thu, 20 May 2010 11:54:40 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>>morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>>units
>>before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with
>>beef
>>and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to bed at
>>160.
>>
>>This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>>something wrong?
>>
>>Paul
>>
> As a type 2 looking on, I have to wonder what you consider to be high
> carb if you consider 40gms to be low.
>
> I can handle that much at dinner, but not at breakfast or lunch. Have
> you tried to discover your own limits by applying
> http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/new.php ?
>
> Noting that 50 point dawn effect, do you have a bedtime snack? If so,
> what is it?


I wish I had written my post more clearly. 40 grams for the whole day, not
the meal. And no snacking before bedtime.

Paul

[Paul M. Cook]

"Julie Bove" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ht4f9t$52c$[email protected]..
>
> "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ht40hj$mhu$[email protected]..
>>I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>>morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>>units before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans
>>with beef and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went
>>to bed at 160.
>>
>> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>> something wrong?
>
> No. Your dose is probably waaaay too low. Took me months to see any
> improvement and things actually got worse, far worse before they got
> better.
>
> I currently take 74 units at night and another 52 units in the morning.
> But... I also have to take Novolog on a sliding scale with each meal.
>
> I can't remember my starting dose now but I think it was 32 units. I
> believe I initially bumped it up by 8 units at a time and then once there
> was some improvement, went down to 4 units at a time.

My endo just said bump it up by 2 until you reach the target of below 100
fasting. I am aiming for 80. They never told me how muchy to expect to use
and I was wondering if I was starting to go too high. Of course, they never
tell me the details. What did we do before the Internet and we couldn't
join support groups?

Paul
>

[Paul M. Cook]

"Ozgirl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> Paul M. Cook wrote:
>> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in
>> my morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave
>> myself 32 units before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb,
>> mexican beans with beef and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning
>> reading - 210. Went to bed at 160.
>>
>> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>> something wrong?
>>
>> Paul
>
> With that amount of insulin I'd hazard a guess that you are still quite
> insulin resistant. Trying to match insulin (even a long acting insulin
> like Lantus) to the amount of carbs you are eating can be very tricky for
> type 2's with strong IR. I know 40 gr doesn't sound like much carb but to
> a highly insulin resistant type 2 it can be - the more carb the harder it
> is to combat with insulin. Are you taking meal time boluses? Try breaking
> the 40gr carb into two meals/snacks at least a couple of hours between the
> two. If you need more food at mealtime bulk it out with lower carb salad
> veggies or cooked veggies. Same carbs, just not all in one meal. Or less
> beans more meat.

I have always done OK on 40 grams per day. I don't eat lunch, and I eat a
small breakfast. Usually eggs or sometimes just a bite of cheese. Today I
am going for as low carbs as possible. Breakfast, 2 eggs and cheese omelet.
Dinner will be broiled chicken and cauliflower butter and garlic. That
should be under 20 grams for the whole day.

Paul

[Paul M. Cook]

"Julie Bove" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ht4fce$578$[email protected]..
>
> "Susan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]..
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
>> On 5/20/2010 2:54 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>>> morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>>> units
>>> before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with
>>> beef
>>> and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to bed
>>> at
>>> 160.
>>>
>>> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>>> something wrong?
>>>
>>
>> That's not reasonably low carb, that's not even moderate carb, that's
>> high carb. No wonder your numbers are frustrating you.
>>
>> I wonder how you'd do if instead of Mexican beans you had salad and non
>> starchy grilled, steamed or roasted veggies for dinner, and a very small
>> protein snack before bed?
>
> IMO that is NOT high carb.

It's never been a problem if it is in bean form. If I ate 40 grams of
bread, I'd be sky high. But the carbs I eat tend to be complex carbs and
not processed like in flour. But there are exceptions. For example, I can
eat an English muffin (20 grams right there) so long as I eat it with eggs,
meat and cheese.

Now for all that cholesterol my LDL was down more than 30 points since
November. I have never been below 200, ever and it was 189 last week. Not
even pre-diabetic. So something is working. Oh, and the trigs were down
50%. Excess carbs can raise trig levels in diabetics. That is probably why
my November reading was pushing 1000.

So I am not thinking my carb count is all that bad. Still, I am going to go
lower to see how this Lantus works.

Paul

[Paul M. Cook]

"Julie Bove" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ht4fdi$5bt$[email protected]..
>
> "Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]..
>> On Thu, 20 May 2010 11:54:40 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>>>morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>>>units
>>>before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with
>>>beef
>>>and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to bed at
>>>160.
>>>
>>>This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>>>something wrong?
>>>
>>>Paul
>>>
>> As a type 2 looking on, I have to wonder what you consider to be high
>> carb if you consider 40gms to be low.
>>
>> I can handle that much at dinner, but not at breakfast or lunch. Have
>> you tried to discover your own limits by applying
>> http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/new.php ?
>>
>> Noting that 50 point dawn effect, do you have a bedtime snack? If so,
>> what is it?
>
> I don't think it is high carb but I also don't think it is low carb.

Wasn't maintenance on Atkins around 40-60 a day?

Paul

[Susan]

x-no-archive: yes

On 5/21/2010 3:29 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:

> That was my carb count for the whole day.

Okay, it looked as if it was for dinner.

Susan

[Susan]

x-no-archive: yes

On 5/21/2010 3:49 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:

> It's never been a problem if it is in bean form. If I ate 40 grams of
> bread, I'd be sky high. But the carbs I eat tend to be complex carbs and
> not processed like in flour. But there are exceptions. For example, I can
> eat an English muffin (20 grams right there) so long as I eat it with eggs,
> meat and cheese.

Complex carbs can be and are just as high, if not higher glycemic than
flour. That designation has nothing to do with avoiding glycemic spikes.

>
> Now for all that cholesterol my LDL was down more than 30 points since
> November. I have never been below 200, ever and it was 189 last week. Not
> even pre-diabetic. So something is working. Oh, and the trigs were down
> 50%. Excess carbs can raise trig levels in diabetics. That is probably why
> my November reading was pushing 1000.

Excess carbs raise TGLs in everyone; folks with IR moreso, but everyone
converts excess glucose as fatty acids.

Susan

[Susan]

x-no-archive: yes

On 5/21/2010 3:50 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:

> Wasn't maintenance on Atkins around 40-60 a day?
>


No.

As I recall it, maintenance was a level determined by each individual as
the level at which weight loss stopped. Different for everyone.

Susan

[Peppermint Patootie]

In article <[email protected]>,
Susan <[email protected]> wrote:

> x-no-archive: yes
>
> On 5/21/2010 3:50 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>
> > Wasn't maintenance on Atkins around 40-60 a day?
> >
> No.
>
> As I recall it, maintenance was a level determined by each individual as
> the level at which weight loss stopped. Different for everyone.
>
> Susan

That's how I remember it too. You keep adding in carb until you stop
losing weight.

PP
--
"What you fail to understand is that criticising established authority by means
of argument and evidence is a crucial aspect of how science works."
- Chris Malcolm

[Cheri]

"Susan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> On 5/21/2010 3:50 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>
>> Wasn't maintenance on Atkins around 40-60 a day?
>>
>
>
> No.
>
> As I recall it, maintenance was a level determined by each individual as
> the level at which weight loss stopped. Different for everyone.
>
> Susan

I think it was called CCL (critical carb level)

Cheri

[Susan]

x-no-archive: yes

On 5/21/2010 4:54 PM, Cheri wrote:

> I think it was called CCL (critical carb level)
>

Yes, you went up to it, I think, til you stopped losing, then gradually
dropped it a little each week til you lost again, for ongoing weight loss.

I never did it, I just recall the discussions and a little of the book.

Susan

[Ozgirl]

Paul M. Cook wrote:
> "Julie Bove" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ht4fce$578$[email protected]..
>>
>> "Susan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]..
>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>
>>> On 5/20/2010 2:54 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>>> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement
>>>> in my morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave
>>>> myself 32 units
>>>> before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans
>>>> with beef
>>>> and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to
>>>> bed at
>>>> 160.
>>>>
>>>> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I
>>>> doing something wrong?
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's not reasonably low carb, that's not even moderate carb,
>>> that's high carb. No wonder your numbers are frustrating you.
>>>
>>> I wonder how you'd do if instead of Mexican beans you had salad and
>>> non starchy grilled, steamed or roasted veggies for dinner, and a
>>> very small protein snack before bed?
>>
>> IMO that is NOT high carb.
>
> It's never been a problem if it is in bean form. If I ate 40 grams of
> bread, I'd be sky high. But the carbs I eat tend to be complex carbs
> and not processed like in flour. But there are exceptions. For
> example, I can eat an English muffin (20 grams right there) so long
> as I eat it with eggs, meat and cheese.
>
> Now for all that cholesterol my LDL was down more than 30 points since
> November. I have never been below 200, ever and it was 189 last
> week. Not even pre-diabetic. So something is working. Oh, and the
> trigs were down 50%. Excess carbs can raise trig levels in
> diabetics. That is probably why my November reading was pushing 1000.
>
> So I am not thinking my carb count is all that bad. Still, I am
> going to go lower to see how this Lantus works.

If your carbs are 40 gr per day then I am extremely surprised you need that
much insulin and also that your trigs have only dropped 50% over 6 months.
Trigs can drop like a bomb once carbs are curtailed and with 40gr carb thats
a pretty significant carb curtail. Not saying that even a drop to 500 isn't
good, its just that it doesn't seem to be the way things normally pan out
when one does very low carb. Even if you haven't had any weight loss you
would excpect to see some improvement in insulin resistance from low
carbing. How long have you actually been on the 40 gr per day carb diet?

[Paul M. Cook]

"Ozgirl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> Paul M. Cook wrote:
>> "Julie Bove" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:ht4fce$578$[email protected]..
>>>
>>> "Susan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]..
>>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>>
>>>> On 5/20/2010 2:54 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>>>> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement
>>>>> in my morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave
>>>>> myself 32 units
>>>>> before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans
>>>>> with beef
>>>>> and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to
>>>>> bed at
>>>>> 160.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I
>>>>> doing something wrong?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's not reasonably low carb, that's not even moderate carb,
>>>> that's high carb. No wonder your numbers are frustrating you.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder how you'd do if instead of Mexican beans you had salad and
>>>> non starchy grilled, steamed or roasted veggies for dinner, and a
>>>> very small protein snack before bed?
>>>
>>> IMO that is NOT high carb.
>>
>> It's never been a problem if it is in bean form. If I ate 40 grams of
>> bread, I'd be sky high. But the carbs I eat tend to be complex carbs
>> and not processed like in flour. But there are exceptions. For
>> example, I can eat an English muffin (20 grams right there) so long
>> as I eat it with eggs, meat and cheese.
>>
>> Now for all that cholesterol my LDL was down more than 30 points since
>> November. I have never been below 200, ever and it was 189 last
>> week. Not even pre-diabetic. So something is working. Oh, and the
>> trigs were down 50%. Excess carbs can raise trig levels in
>> diabetics. That is probably why my November reading was pushing 1000.
>>
>> So I am not thinking my carb count is all that bad. Still, I am
>> going to go lower to see how this Lantus works.
>
> If your carbs are 40 gr per day then I am extremely surprised you need
> that much insulin and also that your trigs have only dropped 50% over 6
> months. Trigs can drop like a bomb once carbs are curtailed and with 40gr
> carb thats a pretty significant carb curtail. Not saying that even a drop
> to 500 isn't good, its just that it doesn't seem to be the way things
> normally pan out when one does very low carb. Even if you haven't had any
> weight loss you would excpect to see some improvement in insulin
> resistance from low carbing. How long have you actually been on the 40 gr
> per day carb diet?

Since my feet took a contract out on me in March When the pain in my feet
became so bad I knew something had to give so I immediately began cutting
out even carbs that did not make me spike. I ate only meat for the firs
weak. Then I slowly added back in vegetables like cauliflower and broccoli.
I stopped eating hamburgers on English muffins. I could tolerate those but
eliminatd them.

My food bill has never been higher. Low carb can be expensive.

Paul

[Julie Bove]

"Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ht6n5o$mtv$[email protected]..
>
> "Julie Bove" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ht4f9t$52c$[email protected]..
>>
>> "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:ht40hj$mhu$[email protected]..
>>>I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>>>morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>>>units before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans
>>>with beef and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went
>>>to bed at 160.
>>>
>>> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>>> something wrong?
>>
>> No. Your dose is probably waaaay too low. Took me months to see any
>> improvement and things actually got worse, far worse before they got
>> better.
>>
>> I currently take 74 units at night and another 52 units in the morning.
>> But... I also have to take Novolog on a sliding scale with each meal.
>>
>> I can't remember my starting dose now but I think it was 32 units. I
>> believe I initially bumped it up by 8 units at a time and then once there
>> was some improvement, went down to 4 units at a time.
>
> My endo just said bump it up by 2 until you reach the target of below 100
> fasting. I am aiming for 80. They never told me how muchy to expect to
> use and I was wondering if I was starting to go too high. Of course, they
> never tell me the details. What did we do before the Internet and we
> couldn't join support groups?

I guess people went to support groups in person. I did try that with a
diabetes support group but I can't say that I cared for it at all. Much of
the time I had to just bite my tongue.

[Julie Bove]

"Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ht6nc3$oqf$[email protected]..
>
> "Ozgirl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]..
>> Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in
>>> my morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave
>>> myself 32 units before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb,
>>> mexican beans with beef and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning
>>> reading - 210. Went to bed at 160.
>>>
>>> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>>> something wrong?
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>> With that amount of insulin I'd hazard a guess that you are still quite
>> insulin resistant. Trying to match insulin (even a long acting insulin
>> like Lantus) to the amount of carbs you are eating can be very tricky for
>> type 2's with strong IR. I know 40 gr doesn't sound like much carb but to
>> a highly insulin resistant type 2 it can be - the more carb the harder it
>> is to combat with insulin. Are you taking meal time boluses? Try
>> breaking the 40gr carb into two meals/snacks at least a couple of hours
>> between the two. If you need more food at mealtime bulk it out with lower
>> carb salad veggies or cooked veggies. Same carbs, just not all in one
>> meal. Or less beans more meat.
>
> I have always done OK on 40 grams per day. I don't eat lunch, and I eat a
> small breakfast. Usually eggs or sometimes just a bite of cheese. Today
> I am going for as low carbs as possible. Breakfast, 2 eggs and cheese
> omelet. Dinner will be broiled chicken and cauliflower butter and garlic.
> That should be under 20 grams for the whole day.

Not eating lunch could be a problem. If you go too long without eating, you
may have a liver dump. Due to our schedule, last year I ate an early dinner
and was able to skip lunch. This year I eat a late (tonight very late)
dinner and find that I must have a snack in there. Today I did eat a
sandwich (on pita bread) and then later some peanuts. But most of the time
my snack is peanut butter stuffed pretzels. Sometimes it's apple slices
with peanut butter. Sometimes it's cheese and a few pretzels or crackers.

[Julie Bove]

"Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ht6o40$thl$[email protected]..
>
> "Julie Bove" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ht4fce$578$[email protected]..
>>
>> "Susan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]..
>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>>
>>> On 5/20/2010 2:54 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>>> I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in
>>>> my
>>>> morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>>>> units
>>>> before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with
>>>> beef
>>>> and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to bed
>>>> at
>>>> 160.
>>>>
>>>> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>>>> something wrong?
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's not reasonably low carb, that's not even moderate carb, that's
>>> high carb. No wonder your numbers are frustrating you.
>>>
>>> I wonder how you'd do if instead of Mexican beans you had salad and non
>>> starchy grilled, steamed or roasted veggies for dinner, and a very small
>>> protein snack before bed?
>>
>> IMO that is NOT high carb.
>
> It's never been a problem if it is in bean form. If I ate 40 grams of
> bread, I'd be sky high. But the carbs I eat tend to be complex carbs and
> not processed like in flour. But there are exceptions. For example, I
> can eat an English muffin (20 grams right there) so long as I eat it with
> eggs, meat and cheese.
>
> Now for all that cholesterol my LDL was down more than 30 points since
> November. I have never been below 200, ever and it was 189 last week.
> Not even pre-diabetic. So something is working. Oh, and the trigs were
> down 50%. Excess carbs can raise trig levels in diabetics. That is
> probably why my November reading was pushing 1000.
>
> So I am not thinking my carb count is all that bad. Still, I am going to
> go lower to see how this Lantus works.

I eat beans all the time with no problem.

Do you think you might have an infection? I am going through that right
now. Turns out it is a sinus infection that is much milder in symptoms than
sinus infections of the past. I could tell something was wrong because my
eyes look blacked. I can see swelling on my face. And I am extremely
sleepy with a loss of appetite. Nose gets stuffy off and on and there were
little twinges of pain in my sinuses. But not the crushing pain I have had
in the past. The high BG was the big tip off.

It could also be that when a type 2 starts on insulin it initially pushes
the BG higher. I know it did for me.

[Julie Bove]

"Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ht6o6p$v3r$[email protected]..
>
> "Julie Bove" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ht4fdi$5bt$[email protected]..
>>
>> "Alan S" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]..
>>> On Thu, 20 May 2010 11:54:40 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>>>>morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>>>>units
>>>>before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans with
>>>>beef
>>>>and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went to bed
>>>>at
>>>>160.
>>>>
>>>>This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>>>>something wrong?
>>>>
>>>>Paul
>>>>
>>> As a type 2 looking on, I have to wonder what you consider to be high
>>> carb if you consider 40gms to be low.
>>>
>>> I can handle that much at dinner, but not at breakfast or lunch. Have
>>> you tried to discover your own limits by applying
>>> http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org/new.php ?
>>>
>>> Noting that 50 point dawn effect, do you have a bedtime snack? If so,
>>> what is it?
>>
>> I don't think it is high carb but I also don't think it is low carb.
>
> Wasn't maintenance on Atkins around 40-60 a day?

I never did Atkins nor was I tempted to try. I did read a little of his
most recent book when my husband announced he was going on it. I wanted to
see what sorts of foods to buy for him. When I saw that no fruit was
allowed for 2 weeks, I knew he couldn't do it. At the time he was eating
HUGE amounts of fruit as well as his junk food and pounds of meat at time.
He wound up not going on it. He had assumed all he had to do was up the
meat and fat in his diet and could keep eating the rest of the stuff. When
he learned that he was limited as to the amount of food, he didn't even try.

[MÅck©®]

On Fri, 21 May 2010 12:30:51 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>I wish I had written my post more clearly. 40 grams for the whole day, not
>the meal. And no snacking before bedtime.
>
>Paul
>

the no snacking before bedtime may have been the culprit.

many type 2s find that having a small snack at bed time will improve
their morning test. The exact snacks that work are very
individualized but the type 2s here can some suggestions that work for
them.

[Cheri]

"Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ht7d8q$r03$[email protected]..

> My food bill has never been higher. Low carb can be expensive.
>
> Paul

I haven't found that to be true in my case. The things that are expensive
are the pre-packaged convenience foods, chips, cookies, cakes,etc. IMO. Of
course, one could dine on filet mignon and things like lobster everyday, and
then it would be expensive, but a nice omelet and lots of good veggies isn't
very costly, and that's just a for instance. Best to you.

Cheri

[Julie Bove]

"Cheri" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ht7d8q$r03$[email protected]..
>
>> My food bill has never been higher. Low carb can be expensive.
>>
>> Paul
>
> I haven't found that to be true in my case. The things that are expensive
> are the pre-packaged convenience foods, chips, cookies, cakes,etc. IMO. Of
> course, one could dine on filet mignon and things like lobster everyday,
> and then it would be expensive, but a nice omelet and lots of good veggies
> isn't very costly, and that's just a for instance. Best to you.

I suppose it would depend on what you were eating prior. For me it wasn't
junk food. Mostly beans and rice or beans and pasta. Supplemented by fresh
vegetables. Popcorn that I popped myself for snacks. Can't get much
cheaper than that. Adding meat in really upped the bill. That is one
reason I went vegetarian to begin with.

[Alan S]

On Fri, 21 May 2010 18:50:16 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]>
wrote:

<snip>
>
>My food bill has never been higher. Low carb can be expensive.
>
>Paul
>
I'm rather surprised at that. Possibly this may help:
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/20...g-healthy.html


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
d&e, metformin 2000 mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com (Banting's Diet)
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (Rio de Janeiro)

[Alan S]

On Fri, 21 May 2010 22:50:23 -0700, "Julie Bove"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:ht6n5o$mtv$[email protected]..
>>
>> "Julie Bove" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:ht4f9t$52c$[email protected]..
>>>
>>> "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:ht40hj$mhu$[email protected]..
>>>>I am bumping my lantus up by 2 units a day until I see improvement in my
>>>>morning numbers. Started at 16 units. So last night I gave myself 32
>>>>units before I turned in. Dinner was reasonably low carb, mexican beans
>>>>with beef and cheese and 40 grams of carbs. Morning reading - 210. Went
>>>>to bed at 160.
>>>>
>>>> This is just not helping. I had btter luck with Byetta. Am I doing
>>>> something wrong?
>>>
>>> No. Your dose is probably waaaay too low. Took me months to see any
>>> improvement and things actually got worse, far worse before they got
>>> better.
>>>
>>> I currently take 74 units at night and another 52 units in the morning.
>>> But... I also have to take Novolog on a sliding scale with each meal.
>>>
>>> I can't remember my starting dose now but I think it was 32 units. I
>>> believe I initially bumped it up by 8 units at a time and then once there
>>> was some improvement, went down to 4 units at a time.
>>
>> My endo just said bump it up by 2 until you reach the target of below 100
>> fasting. I am aiming for 80. They never told me how muchy to expect to
>> use and I was wondering if I was starting to go too high. Of course, they
>> never tell me the details. What did we do before the Internet and we
>> couldn't join support groups?
>
>I guess people went to support groups in person. I did try that with a
>diabetes support group but I can't say that I cared for it at all. Much of
>the time I had to just bite my tongue.
>
I didn't bite mine; eventually the person running the group invited me
to speak a few times. And the CDE (our equivalent) who attended
started getting interested in "test, test, test". But it was quite
clear, in time, that the majority who attended wanted re-assurance
that there was no need to change what they were unsuccessfully doing
already.

I kept going while the occasional newby arrived; I was able to help
them. But the rest simply attended for social reasons.
I gave up after a little over a year.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
d&e, metformin 2000 mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com (Banting's Diet)
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (Rio de Janeiro)

[W. Baker]

Cheri <[email protected]> wrote:
: "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: news:ht7d8q$r03$[email protected]..

: > My food bill has never been higher. Low carb can be expensive.
: >
: > Paul

: I haven't found that to be true in my case. The things that are expensive
: are the pre-packaged convenience foods, chips, cookies, cakes,etc. IMO. Of
: course, one could dine on filet mignon and things like lobster everyday, and
: then it would be expensive, but a nice omelet and lots of good veggies isn't
: very costly, and that's just a for instance. Best to you.

: Cheri

If one is frugal and NOT watching carbs there are lots of things ou can
cook that cost les than meat and fresh vegetables and ssalad. What about
pasta main courses, rice pilafs, potato dishes and potatoes in tews, sops,
etc.? You don't have to hve expensive prepared foods to eat high carb.

Wendy

[Susan]

x-no-archive: yes

On 5/22/2010 8:01 PM, W. Baker wrote:

> If one is frugal and NOT watching carbs there are lots of things ou can
> cook that cost les than meat and fresh vegetables and ssalad. What about
> pasta main courses, rice pilafs, potato dishes and potatoes in tews, sops,
> etc.? You don't have to hve expensive prepared foods to eat high carb.
>

We spend much more on food low carbing, but much more than we would
spend if money were tighter. I buy almost no prepared foods, cut up
whole chickens and prep my own veggies. But I also buy wild salmon in
season, shrimp, steak, etc, all of which costs a lot more than the
pasta, rice and starch centric meals we used to eat.

Food costs in our house have probably risen more due to concerns about
health and environmental impact of what we eat than due to carb content.
We buy grass fed meat and dairy, omega three eggs, wild caught,
sustainable fish.

Lots of low carbers eat very cheaply buying meats on special at Walmart
stores, for instance, or chicken on super sale.

Susan

[KROM]

I was looking at the Sunday early edition adds and its amazing how bad it
is..I could feed a family of 5 for 5 buck with leftovers and a single
artichoke cost that here...so of course a poor or even a person trying to
have some savings in the bank will choose the junk food .

plus junk foods made to hit all the brains crave receptors..salt/fat/sugar.

it used to be far cheaper to eat healthy foods then it is now.

even a watermelon is 4-6 bucks in this weeks add

lets see I'm a mom with kids..I can buy a box 12 cream filled oatmeal
cookies..a bag of chips a pack of hot dog and a loaf of bread and a bottle
of soda and a carton of ice cream for the same cost as ONE WATERMELON...tsk

here kids I can give you a filling meal with dessert or a slice of
watermelon...

KROM


"Susan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> On 5/22/2010 8:01 PM, W. Baker wrote:
>
>> If one is frugal and NOT watching carbs there are lots of things ou can
>> cook that cost les than meat and fresh vegetables and ssalad. What about
>> pasta main courses, rice pilafs, potato dishes and potatoes in tews,
>> sops,
>> etc.? You don't have to hve expensive prepared foods to eat high carb.
>>
>
> We spend much more on food low carbing, but much more than we would spend
> if money were tighter. I buy almost no prepared foods, cut up whole
> chickens and prep my own veggies. But I also buy wild salmon in season,
> shrimp, steak, etc, all of which costs a lot more than the pasta, rice and
> starch centric meals we used to eat.
>
> Food costs in our house have probably risen more due to concerns about
> health and environmental impact of what we eat than due to carb content.
> We buy grass fed meat and dairy, omega three eggs, wild caught,
> sustainable fish.
>
> Lots of low carbers eat very cheaply buying meats on special at Walmart
> stores, for instance, or chicken on super sale.
>
> Susan

[Plague Boy]

Julie Bove wrote:
> "Paul M. Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
<snip>

>>What did we do before the Internet and we
>> couldn't join support groups?
>
> I guess people went to support groups in person. I did try that with a
> diabetes support group but I can't say that I cared for it at all. Much of
> the time I had to just bite my tongue.

Well, I took the time to go to the local support group. The
facilitator had to cancel, so somebody else filled in. They
seemed very concerned that they weren't getting any "new blood".
Newcomers show up once or twice, and then are not seen again.

Of course, they asked questions of me, which I answered. One
exchange went like this:

"Are you on Insulin?"
"No."
"Not yet?"


I did not feel supported.


--
PB
"I suspect you're an arrogant little pissant who grew up in the
Red Bull generation." - CJW

[Plague Boy]

KROM wrote:
> I was looking at the Sunday early edition adds and its amazing how bad
> it is..I could feed a family of 5 for 5 buck with leftovers and a single
> artichoke cost that here...so of course a poor or even a person trying
> to have some savings in the bank will choose the junk food .
>
> plus junk foods made to hit all the brains crave receptors..salt/fat/sugar.
>
> it used to be far cheaper to eat healthy foods then it is now.
>
> even a watermelon is 4-6 bucks in this weeks add
>
> lets see I'm a mom with kids..I can buy a box 12 cream filled oatmeal
> cookies..a bag of chips a pack of hot dog and a loaf of bread and a
> bottle of soda and a carton of ice cream for the same cost as ONE
> WATERMELON...tsk

Yes, it boggles my mind now that I have to pay attention to what
I eat. The dollar stores, the budget supermarkets, all are
overflowing with cheap carbs. The bakery thrift store has cakes
and cookies 3 boxes for $5.00 US. Most of the "Healthy" bread is
full of HFCS, Maltodextrin, invert syrup etc.

I suggest instead of "Cellosis" we rename type 2 "ADMitus".

--
PB
"I suspect you're an arrogant little pissant who grew up in the
Red Bull generation." - CJW

[Kurt]

On May 22, 9:36�pm, Plague Boy <plague_...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Julie Bove wrote:
> > "Paul M. Cook" <pmc...@gte.net> wrote in message
>
> <snip>
>
> >>What did we do before the Internet and we
> >> couldn't join support groups?
>
> > I guess people went to support groups in person. �I did try that with a
> > diabetes support group but I can't say that I cared for it at all. �Much of
> > the time I had to just bite my tongue.
>
> Well, I took the time to go to the local support group. The
> facilitator had to cancel, so somebody else filled in. They
> seemed very concerned that they weren't getting any "new blood".
> Newcomers show up once or twice, and then are not seen again.
>
> � � � � Of course, they asked questions of me, which I answered. One
> exchange went like this:
>
> "Are you on Insulin?"
> "No."
> "Not yet?"
>
> � � � � I did not feel supported.

You get out of a support group what you put into it. The ones I've
gone to in Los Angeles have been very helpful. It gives me a chance to
hear many different approaches, opinions, and questions from people
with diabetes. Unlike a newsgroup, you get to discusss things in
person. I also find there aren't the same vocal minority bullies as
you find in here who want to dominate the discussion. And they can't
hide behind killfiles.

Kurt