Mendosa Blog - Eat Fat, Grow Thin

David Mendosa has just posted an interesting blog article on
low-carb diets. Well worth reading.

http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...t-grow-thin/3/

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:02:13 +1100, Alan S posted:

>David Mendosa has just posted an interesting blog article on
>low-carb diets. Well worth reading.
>
>http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...t-grow-thin/3/

Make that
http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...t-grow-thin/1/
if you want to start at the beginning.


--
Larry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada.
DX 24 Aug 07. D&E
Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin
Last A1c 8.1 (at DX)

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 00:18:16 -0600, Oleg Lego
<rat@atatatat.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 17:02:13 +1100, Alan S posted:
>
>>David Mendosa has just posted an interesting blog article on
>>low-carb diets. Well worth reading.
>>
>>http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...t-grow-thin/3/
>
>Make that
>http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...t-grow-thin/1/
>if you want to start at the beginning.

Oops - thanks for the correction. At least you know I read
it all:-)


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com

Oleg Lego wrote:
> Make that
> http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...t-grow-thin/1/
> if you want to start at the beginning.

I just want to point out, he's not talking about "Eat Fat, Grow Thin", a
specific book and plan by Dr. John Yudkin, nor the "Eat Fat, Get Thin"
book and plan by Barry Groves. We're running out of cutesy names for
low-carb diets.

The Mendosa blog article is about carb and fat metabolism and discusses
Gary Taube's incredible researched book and some ideas from Bernstein.

It's interesting stuff, and I personally suspect amylin is largely
involved in all this.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

On Dec 3, 2:37 pm, Jackie Patti <jpa...@ccil.org> wrote:
> Oleg Lego wrote:
> > Make that
> >http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...t-grow-thin/1/
> > if you want to start at the beginning.
>
> I just want to point out, he's not talking about "Eat Fat, Grow Thin", a
> specific book and plan by Dr. John Yudkin, nor the "Eat Fat, Get Thin"
> book and plan by Barry Groves. We're running out of cutesy names for
> low-carb diets.
>
> The Mendosa blog article is about carb and fat metabolism and discusses
> Gary Taube's incredible researched book and some ideas from Bernstein.
>
> It's interesting stuff, and I personally suspect amylin is largely
> involved in all this.
>
> --http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

Google Michael Fumento's article on Gary Taubes and find out how
incredibly researched Taubes's book is. Also read the comments of
some researchers he interviewed for several hours each and how livid
they were at being misquoted. Thirty years of research which came to
different conclusions was omitted from Taubes's incredibly researched
book.

Mendosa reports on a 60 day trial by dr. Bernstein. Try this
instead. Have an angiogram or other picture taken of your arteries.
Go on Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet for a couple of years and have
your arteries photographed again. Then tell me how good the diet is.
Also tell me if there is any retinopathy, or other complication of
diabetes. Ornish and Esselstyn both have photographic proof of the
efficacy of their very low fat, high (whole food) carb diet which
shows regression of blockages in the arteries. If along with the lack
of weight gain that bernstein claims on 900 extra calories of fat plus
alcohol you can show me proof that there is regression of artery
blockages, then, believe me, I will run out and buy some fat and
alcohol.

Dolores

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:47:05 -0800 (PST), dorsy1943
<dtms69@usadatanet.net> wrote:

>Go on Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet

Could you give me a url? It sounds like an intersting diet,
but I didn't realise he had recommended one like that.

And I have read his book.

Have you?

I don't follow all of Bernsteins recommendations; I selected
those that worked for me because they made sense and
experiments on my own body showed they were right for me.
But, although he certainly promotes a very restricted carb
diet, nowhere does he promote a "fat and alcohol" diet.


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com

dorsy1943 wrote:
> instead. Have an angiogram or other picture taken of your arteries.
> Go on Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet for a couple of years and have
> your arteries photographed again. Then tell me how good the diet is.
> Also tell me if there is any retinopathy, or other complication of
> diabetes.

I was not on Bernstein's "fat and alcohol" diet.
But I have had years of consuming more fat than carbs,
I do not have a "before" picture, just a cardiologist's
report that things were pretty good. I do have "after"
pictures, though: ZERO blockage.

Also, NO retinopathy, NO neuropathy, NO other complications.

Furthermore, I have in recent months slightly increased my
carb consumption. In spite of still feeling hungry, my weight
and A1c are slowly increasing.

--
Wes Groleau

The plural of anecdote is NOT data.

dorsy1943 wrote:
> Google Michael Fumento's article on Gary Taubes and find out how
> incredibly researched Taubes's book is. ....
> ..... Thirty years of research which came to
> different conclusions was omitted from Taubes's incredibly researched
> book.

Because of my past experience with such things, I wouldn't
trust Michael Fumento OR Gary Taubes further than I could
throw them. When you see a comment or citation of a medical
article, I recommend one of two responses:

1. Check it out and find out what it really says.

2. Pretend it said the study "proves absolutely nothing."

--
Wes Groleau
"Ideas are more powerful than guns,
We would not let our enemies have guns;
why should we let them have ideas?"
-- Jozef Stalin

Wes Groleau wrote in message ...

> When you see a comment or citation of a medical
>article, I recommend one of two responses:
>
>1. Check it out and find out what it really says.
>
>2. Pretend it said the study "proves absolutely nothing."


There ya go. :-)

Cheri

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:47:05 -0800 (PST), dorsy1943
<dtms69@usadatanet.net> wrote:

>Mendosa reports on a 60 day trial by dr. Bernstein. Try this
>instead. Have an angiogram or other picture taken of your arteries.
>Go on Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet for a couple of years and have
>your arteries photographed again. Then tell me how good the diet is.

Actually, for me - a heart attack on low fat, followed by a Bruce test
and MRI that showed nothing but scarring from the earlier problem
after a year of low carb. Long fiber neuropathy on low fat; no
neuropathy on low carb. 25 Kg lost and maintained for 3 1/2 years on
low carb. A1c from 10.3 to 5.5%. Blood pressure remaining low. Total
cholesterol remaining low; lipid panel improved by lowering trigs &
raising HDL. By every measure I have, low fat hurt me, and low carb is
allowing my body to recover from the damage.

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 08:57:39 +0000, Nicky
<ukc802466929@btconnect.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:47:05 -0800 (PST), dorsy1943
><dtms69@usadatanet.net> wrote:
>
>>Mendosa reports on a 60 day trial by dr. Bernstein. Try this
>>instead. Have an angiogram or other picture taken of your arteries.
>>Go on Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet for a couple of years and have
>>your arteries photographed again. Then tell me how good the diet is.
>
>Actually, for me - a heart attack on low fat, followed by a Bruce test
>and MRI that showed nothing but scarring from the earlier problem
>after a year of low carb. Long fiber neuropathy on low fat; no
>neuropathy on low carb. 25 Kg lost and maintained for 3 1/2 years on
>low carb. A1c from 10.3 to 5.5%. Blood pressure remaining low. Total
>cholesterol remaining low; lipid panel improved by lowering trigs &
>raising HDL. By every measure I have, low fat hurt me, and low carb is
>allowing my body to recover from the damage.

Please do not confuse closed minds with anecdotal tales of
miracles. It only cause confusion and uncertainty.

The miracle, of course, is that you achieved those results
despite the medical establishment, not as a result of their
professional advice.

I only re-read this a few minutes before I saw your post
here:
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/20...ce-nickys.html


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com

On Dec 3, 6:22 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:47:05 -0800 (PST), dorsy1943
>
> <dtm...@usadatanet.net> wrote:
> >Go on Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet
>
> Could you give me a url? It sounds like an intersting diet,
> but I didn't realise he had recommended one like that.
>
> And I have read his book.
>
> Have you?
>
> I don't follow all of Bernsteins recommendations; I selected
> those that worked for me because they made sense and
> experiments on my own body showed they were right for me.
> But, although he certainly promotes a very restricted carb
> diet, nowhere does he promote a "fat and alcohol" diet.
>
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
> --http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com

Alan, I googled Michael Fumento and found some articles he wrote. I
have no way of knowing if either he or Taubes or anyone else has
accurate facts. Yes, a few years ago I read Bernstein's book and seem
to remember that he was working with type one diabetics and used
insulin in his treatments, but it was a while ago and my memory is
vague. I remember thinking it didn't apply to me at the time. If I
can be more specific about finding the article by fumento I will get
back to you. Computers are not my forte.

On ornish's board on web md there is a board called Nutrition: The
Great Diet Debate. Someone on the board called Heretic found an
article in which a study was done showing that some people are fat
responders and some aren't, meaning some people can eat a very high
fat diet but others cannot. The subjects were young healthy people.

I am aware that some people in this group are having excellent results
with low carb. They would be crazy to change if it is keeping them
healthy. I on the other hand have been doing great for the last 16
years on high carb whole foods, low fat although often, I indulge in
ice cream and potato chips and stuff that isn't good for me. However,
in general I stick to high carb, whole foods. I do not take meds.
Yesterday my fasting blood sugar was 78 and the day before it was 87.
Often it is up to 100. If I eat a salad before I go to bed, my sugar
is higher in the morning than if I eat a potato or a sandwich. I wish
I could figure out this rotten disease. There are studies which show
that high carb, high fiber, low fat diet is better for diabetics.
There are studies which show that low carb, higher fat is better for
diabetics. Some people do well on one, some on the other, which of
course provokes debate.

If I am wrong about the 900 calories of extra fat along with alcohol,
then Michael Fumento has been very, very naughty.

Regards, Dolores

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:44:35 +1100, Alan S
<loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote:

>Please do not confuse closed minds with anecdotal tales of
>miracles. It only cause confusion and uncertainty.

Actually, I thought Dolores' reply was fair enough. I have no idea how
she's maintaining good results on that regimen, but she's clearly
comfortable with it.

>The miracle, of course, is that you achieved those results
>despite the medical establishment, not as a result of their
>professional advice.

Ah, the advantages of having parents who taught me to question things
I'm glowing in reflected glory myself just now, Elder Daughter won
a place to the 6th form college she's after last night to study the
International Baccalaureate. I think she's unlikely to have blind
faith in authority too : ) I just wish she'd have more when I told
her that her room needs tidying...

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25

Nicky wrote:

> Ah, the advantages of having parents who taught me to question things
> I'm glowing in reflected glory myself just now, Elder Daughter won
> a place to the 6th form college she's after last night to study the
> International Baccalaureate. I think she's unlikely to have blind
> faith in authority too : ) I just wish she'd have more when I told
> her that her room needs tidying...

That's the downside of teaching kids to think for themselves... they do
it *at* you.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 04:07:04 -0800 (PST), dorsy1943
<dtms69@usadatanet.net> wrote:

>On Dec 3, 6:22 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:47:05 -0800 (PST), dorsy1943
>>
>> <dtm...@usadatanet.net> wrote:
>> >Go on Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet
>>
>> Could you give me a url? It sounds like an intersting diet,
>> but I didn't realise he had recommended one like that.
>>
>> And I have read his book.
>>
>> Have you?
>>
>> I don't follow all of Bernsteins recommendations; I selected
>> those that worked for me because they made sense and
>> experiments on my own body showed they were right for me.
>> But, although he certainly promotes a very restricted carb
>> diet, nowhere does he promote a "fat and alcohol" diet.
>>
>> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
>> d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
>> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
>> --http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
>
>Alan, I googled Michael Fumento and found some articles he wrote. I
>have no way of knowing if either he or Taubes or anyone else has
>accurate facts. Yes, a few years ago I read Bernstein's book and seem
>to remember that he was working with type one diabetics and used
>insulin in his treatments, but it was a while ago and my memory is
>vague. I remember thinking it didn't apply to me at the time.

Bernstein is a type 1 diabetic who was an Engineer when home
test meters first appeared. He used engineering principles
to use the meter to test to discover more about what
happened to his BG's after eating. He used that to
dramatically improve his management. Then he helped some
others do the same. That's a very simplified description of
course.

When the medical world refused to accept his results because
he was "just an engineer" he went back to school in his 40's
and became a fully qualified doctor specialising in diabetes
- of all types. You have to respect someone prepared to do
that.

His methods work and help type 2 as well as type 1. However,
I am not a disciple and do not follow all of his advice. I
selectively use what works for me and what doesn't. But I
did try many of his ideas first to discover which did and
which didn't - for me.

>If I
>can be more specific about finding the article by fumento I will get
>back to you. Computers are not my forte.
>
>On ornish's board on web md there is a board called Nutrition: The
>Great Diet Debate. Someone on the board called Heretic found an
>article in which a study was done showing that some people are fat
>responders and some aren't, meaning some people can eat a very high
>fat diet but others cannot. The subjects were young healthy people.
>
>I am aware that some people in this group are having excellent results
>with low carb. They would be crazy to change if it is keeping them
>healthy. I on the other hand have been doing great for the last 16
>years on high carb whole foods, low fat although often, I indulge in
>ice cream and potato chips and stuff that isn't good for me. However,
>in general I stick to high carb, whole foods. I do not take meds.
>Yesterday my fasting blood sugar was 78 and the day before it was 87.
>Often it is up to 100.

Good numbers.

What are your test results one hour after breakfast? Lunch?
Dinner?

> If I eat a salad before I go to bed, my sugar
>is higher in the morning than if I eat a potato or a sandwich. I wish
>I could figure out this rotten disease. There are studies which show
>that high carb, high fiber, low fat diet is better for diabetics.
>There are studies which show that low carb, higher fat is better for
>diabetics. Some people do well on one, some on the other, which of
>course provokes debate.
>
>If I am wrong about the 900 calories of extra fat along with alcohol,
>then Michael Fumento has been very, very naughty.
>
>Regards, Dolores

Did you read the Mendosa comment in full? As someone else
pointed out, it is only an opinion. But some opinions have
more to support them than others. Some people have built up
credibility over years by writing about this condition in
the public arena and being prepared to field criticism and
comment on their views. Mendosa, Becker and Jenny are three
"patient-experts" I respect for their depth of knowledge.

If I came across as a bit testy, I'm sorry. However,
throwaway lines falsely characterising a man's life work as
"Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet" tend to cause that
reaction in me.


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 13:07:11 +0000, Nicky
<ukc802466929@btconnect.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:44:35 +1100, Alan S
><loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Please do not confuse closed minds with anecdotal tales of
>>miracles. It only cause confusion and uncertainty.
>
>Actually, I thought Dolores' reply was fair enough. I have no idea how
>she's maintaining good results on that regimen, but she's clearly
>comfortable with it.
>
I've responded on that assumption since.

>>The miracle, of course, is that you achieved those results
>>despite the medical establishment, not as a result of their
>>professional advice.
>
>Ah, the advantages of having parents who taught me to question things
> I'm glowing in reflected glory myself just now, Elder Daughter won
>a place to the 6th form college she's after last night to study the
>International Baccalaureate. I think she's unlikely to have blind
>faith in authority too : ) I just wish she'd have more when I told
>her that her room needs tidying...
>
>Nicky.
>T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
>D&E, 100ug thyroxine
>Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25

Congratulations to your untidy off-spring:-)


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com

On Dec 4, 3:59 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 04:07:04 -0800 (PST), dorsy1943
>
>
>
>
>
> <dtm...@usadatanet.net> wrote:
> >On Dec 3, 6:22 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:47:05 -0800 (PST), dorsy1943
>
> >> <dtm...@usadatanet.net> wrote:
> >> >Go on Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet
>
> >> Could you give me a url? It sounds like an intersting diet,
> >> but I didn't realise he had recommended one like that.
>
> >> And I have read his book.
>
> >> Have you?
>
> >> I don't follow all of Bernsteins recommendations; I selected
> >> those that worked for me because they made sense and
> >> experiments on my own body showed they were right for me.
> >> But, although he certainly promotes a very restricted carb
> >> diet, nowhere does he promote a "fat and alcohol" diet.
>
> >> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> >> d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
> >> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
> >> --http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
>
> >Alan, I googled Michael Fumento and found some articles he wrote. I
> >have no way of knowing if either he or Taubes or anyone else has
> >accurate facts. Yes, a few years ago I read Bernstein's book and seem
> >to remember that he was working with type one diabetics and used
> >insulin in his treatments, but it was a while ago and my memory is
> >vague. I remember thinking it didn't apply to me at the time.
>
> Bernstein is a type 1 diabetic who was an Engineer when home
> test meters first appeared. He used engineering principles
> to use the meter to test to discover more about what
> happened to his BG's after eating. He used that to
> dramatically improve his management. Then he helped some
> others do the same. That's a very simplified description of
> course.
>
> When the medical world refused to accept his results because
> he was "just an engineer" he went back to school in his 40's
> and became a fully qualified doctor specialising in diabetes
> - of all types. You have to respect someone prepared to do
> that.
>
> His methods work and help type 2 as well as type 1. However,
> I am not a disciple and do not follow all of his advice. I
> selectively use what works for me and what doesn't. But I
> did try many of his ideas first to discover which did and
> which didn't - for me.
>
>
>
>
>
> >If I
> >can be more specific about finding the article by fumento I will get
> >back to you. Computers are not my forte.
>
> >On ornish's board on web md there is a board called Nutrition: The
> >Great Diet Debate. Someone on the board called Heretic found an
> >article in which a study was done showing that some people are fat
> >responders and some aren't, meaning some people can eat a very high
> >fat diet but others cannot. The subjects were young healthy people.
>
> >I am aware that some people in this group are having excellent results
> >with low carb. They would be crazy to change if it is keeping them
> >healthy. I on the other hand have been doing great for the last 16
> >years on high carb whole foods, low fat although often, I indulge in
> >ice cream and potato chips and stuff that isn't good for me. However,
> >in general I stick to high carb, whole foods. I do not take meds.
> >Yesterday my fasting blood sugar was 78 and the day before it was 87.
> >Often it is up to 100.
>
> Good numbers.
>
> What are your test results one hour after breakfast? Lunch?
> Dinner?
>
> > If I eat a salad before I go to bed, my sugar
> >is higher in the morning than if I eat a potato or a sandwich. I wish
> >I could figure out this rotten disease. There are studies which show
> >that high carb, high fiber, low fat diet is better for diabetics.
> >There are studies which show that low carb, higher fat is better for
> >diabetics. Some people do well on one, some on the other, which of
> >course provokes debate.
>
> >If I am wrong about the 900 calories of extra fat along with alcohol,
> >then Michael Fumento has been very, very naughty.
>
> >Regards, Dolores
>
> Did you read the Mendosa comment in full? As someone else
> pointed out, it is only an opinion. But some opinions have
> more to support them than others. Some people have built up
> credibility over years by writing about this condition in
> the public arena and being prepared to field criticism and
> comment on their views. Mendosa, Becker and Jenny are three
> "patient-experts" I respect for their depth of knowledge.
>
> If I came across as a bit testy, I'm sorry. However,
> throwaway lines falsely characterising a man's life work as
> "Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet" tend to cause that
> reaction in me.
>
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
> --http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sorry, I did not explain what I read. Bernstein did a short
experiment in which he added 900 calories of fat to a diet and used
the alcohol to make it palatable. I can not remember where I just
read it and will have to search the net to get it back. He showed
that no extra weight was gained with the extra fat calories. I did
not mean to suggest that this was Bernstein's diet.

D

Wes Groleau wrote:
> dorsy1943 wrote:
>> Google Michael Fumento's article on Gary Taubes and find out how
>> incredibly researched Taubes's book is. ....

When I was in debate club in high school,
I learned that in debating competitions,
the truth doesn't matter--the whole point
is who has the best argument.

I read Fumento's debunking of Taubes's article
and Taubes's debunking of Fumento's debunking,
AND Fumento's rebuttal of Taubes's debunking of
Fumento's debunking, and a few other things.

If it were a competitive debate, the judges would
say neither did well, but Taubes did better.

In terms of credibility, both leave a lot to be desired.
The irrelevant personal insults on either side are only
exceeded on Usenet. Well, maybe _some_ political
campaigns.

The distortions and exaggerations are in some cases
quite obvious and quite ridiculous. For example,
Fumento claims that John Farquhar was angry at
Taubes for misrepresenting him. Taubes responds
by quoting e-mails, which, if genuine, show
that Farquhar said exactly what Taubes attributed
to him. Fumento then says "Taubes spends 1,300 words
trying to exculpate himself from John Farquhar's accusations"
without acknowledging that around 800 of those words were
written by Farquhar. He follows that by repeating the same
complaints those e-mails refuted.

Is Taubes an opportunist who recognised that low-fat sells?
Or is Fumento furious that Taubes debunked Fumento's low-fat
book before he had a chance to get rich from it?
Or could it be both? I don't know, but after reading all that,
it was quite obvious that (1) at least one of them is lying, and
(2) neither of them should be trusted.

My advice: see http://tinyurl.com/24dp27

Ignore the links with obvious bias ( fumento.com, lowcarber.com,
atkins.com, etc. ) Read ALL of the reason.com links on both sides.

When either claims so-and-so said this or such-and-such study
showed this, go find the study or book and see whether it is
misrepresented.

Don't base your decision on which author is more of an ass.
I'm biased toward Taubes's hypothesis, but personality doesn't
guarantee truth. In Numbers 22, it was the ass that was right
and the prophet that was wrong.

--
Wes Groleau
Heroes, Heritage, and History
http://UniGen.us/PGV

dorsy1943 wrote:

> Sorry, I did not explain what I read. Bernstein did a short
> experiment in which he added 900 calories of fat to a diet and used
> the alcohol to make it palatable. I can not remember where I just
> read it and will have to search the net to get it back. He showed
> that no extra weight was gained with the extra fat calories. I did
> not mean to suggest that this was Bernstein's diet.

I remmeber reading that also; he was trying to help patients who needed
to gain weight and as I recall, this was ineffective.

I don't recall where I read it either; I rarely store information about
how to gain weight.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

On Dec 4, 3:59 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 04:07:04 -0800 (PST), dorsy1943
>
>
>
>
>
> <dtm...@usadatanet.net> wrote:
> >On Dec 3, 6:22 pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:47:05 -0800 (PST), dorsy1943
>
> >> <dtm...@usadatanet.net> wrote:
> >> >Go on Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet
>
> >> Could you give me a url? It sounds like an intersting diet,
> >> but I didn't realise he had recommended one like that.
>
> >> And I have read his book.
>
> >> Have you?
>
> >> I don't follow all of Bernsteins recommendations; I selected
> >> those that worked for me because they made sense and
> >> experiments on my own body showed they were right for me.
> >> But, although he certainly promotes a very restricted carb
> >> diet, nowhere does he promote a "fat and alcohol" diet.
>
> >> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> >> d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
> >> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
> >> --http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
>
> >Alan, I googled Michael Fumento and found some articles he wrote. I
> >have no way of knowing if either he or Taubes or anyone else has
> >accurate facts. Yes, a few years ago I read Bernstein's book and seem
> >to remember that he was working with type one diabetics and used
> >insulin in his treatments, but it was a while ago and my memory is
> >vague. I remember thinking it didn't apply to me at the time.
>
> Bernstein is a type 1 diabetic who was an Engineer when home
> test meters first appeared. He used engineering principles
> to use the meter to test to discover more about what
> happened to his BG's after eating. He used that to
> dramatically improve his management. Then he helped some
> others do the same. That's a very simplified description of
> course.
>
> When the medical world refused to accept his results because
> he was "just an engineer" he went back to school in his 40's
> and became a fully qualified doctor specialising in diabetes
> - of all types. You have to respect someone prepared to do
> that.
>
> His methods work and help type 2 as well as type 1. However,
> I am not a disciple and do not follow all of his advice. I
> selectively use what works for me and what doesn't. But I
> did try many of his ideas first to discover which did and
> which didn't - for me.
>
>
>
>
>
> >If I
> >can be more specific about finding the article by fumento I will get
> >back to you. Computers are not my forte.
>
> >On ornish's board on web md there is a board called Nutrition: The
> >Great Diet Debate. Someone on the board called Heretic found an
> >article in which a study was done showing that some people are fat
> >responders and some aren't, meaning some people can eat a very high
> >fat diet but others cannot. The subjects were young healthy people.
>
> >I am aware that some people in this group are having excellent results
> >with low carb. They would be crazy to change if it is keeping them
> >healthy. I on the other hand have been doing great for the last 16
> >years on high carb whole foods, low fat although often, I indulge in
> >ice cream and potato chips and stuff that isn't good for me. However,
> >in general I stick to high carb, whole foods. I do not take meds.
> >Yesterday my fasting blood sugar was 78 and the day before it was 87.
> >Often it is up to 100.
>
> Good numbers.
>
> What are your test results one hour after breakfast? Lunch?
> Dinner?
>
> > If I eat a salad before I go to bed, my sugar
> >is higher in the morning than if I eat a potato or a sandwich. I wish
> >I could figure out this rotten disease. There are studies which show
> >that high carb, high fiber, low fat diet is better for diabetics.
> >There are studies which show that low carb, higher fat is better for
> >diabetics. Some people do well on one, some on the other, which of
> >course provokes debate.
>
> >If I am wrong about the 900 calories of extra fat along with alcohol,
> >then Michael Fumento has been very, very naughty.
>
> >Regards, Dolores
>
> Did you read the Mendosa comment in full? As someone else
> pointed out, it is only an opinion. But some opinions have
> more to support them than others. Some people have built up
> credibility over years by writing about this condition in
> the public arena and being prepared to field criticism and
> comment on their views. Mendosa, Becker and Jenny are three
> "patient-experts" I respect for their depth of knowledge.
>
> If I came across as a bit testy, I'm sorry. However,
> throwaway lines falsely characterising a man's life work as
> "Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet" tend to cause that
> reaction in me.
>
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
> --http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Exercise is a magic elixer for diabetes as far as I am concerned. The
diet part is frustrating. There is no doubt that years of studies
have shown that high fiber, high carb, low fat diets improve arteries
and diabetes. You also read of people who are doing great on a low
carb, higher fat diet and studies which confirm this, although I
haven't seen long term studies with angiograms. Other things I have
read suggest that high fat is ok and high carb is ok, but the problem
comes when you mix carbs and fat. It has not escaped my attention
that cultures which eat a very high carb diet and have excellent heart
health are also cultures which are more physically active and that
programs such as Pritikin's had people at his center walking after
meals. It is extremely frightening for someone, especially someone
newly diagnosed, who wants to do the most healthful thing as far as
diet, meds, exercise is concerned and not completely turn his health
and life over to a doctor. You can find evidence of good results with
diets that are polar opposites. I think the one thing just about
everyone agrees with is that the standard american diet is not
healthful.

Dolores

On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 20:44:07 -0800 (PST), dorsy1943
<dtms69@usadatanet.net> wrote:

>Exercise is a magic elixer for diabetes as far as I am concerned.

No argument there.

>The
>diet part is frustrating. There is no doubt that years of studies
>have shown that high fiber, high carb, low fat diets improve arteries
>and diabetes.

Sorry, I do have doubts on that. Can you cite ANY studies
that actually prove that?

> You also read of people who are doing great on a low
>carb, higher fat diet and studies which confirm this, although I
>haven't seen long term studies with angiograms. Other things I have
>read suggest that high fat is ok and high carb is ok, but the problem
>comes when you mix carbs and fat. It has not escaped my attention
>that cultures which eat a very high carb diet and have excellent heart
>health are also cultures which are more physically active and that
>programs such as Pritikin's had people at his center walking after
>meals. It is extremely frightening for someone, especially someone
>newly diagnosed, who wants to do the most healthful thing as far as
>diet, meds, exercise is concerned and not completely turn his health
>and life over to a doctor. You can find evidence of good results with
>diets that are polar opposites. I think the one thing just about
>everyone agrees with is that the standard american diet is not
>healthful.
>
>Dolores

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com

On Tue, 4 Dec 2007 20:25:12 -0800 (PST), dorsy1943
<dtms69@usadatanet.net> wrote:

>
>Sorry, I did not explain what I read. Bernstein did a short
>experiment in which he added 900 calories of fat to a diet and used
>the alcohol to make it palatable. I can not remember where I just
>read it and will have to search the net to get it back. He showed
>that no extra weight was gained with the extra fat calories. I did
>not mean to suggest that this was Bernstein's diet.
>
>D

Where you read it was in the blog which led to this thread,
here on page 2:

http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...t-grow-thin/2/

Thank you for the clarification; that certainly wasn't the
way I read your post, so let's start again:-)

I recommend you re-read the full blog post again to see the
context that was set in.


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com

dorsy1943 wrote:
> Google Michael Fumento's article on Gary Taubes and find out how
> incredibly researched Taubes's book is. Also read the comments of
> some researchers he interviewed for several hours each and how livid
> they were at being misquoted. Thirty years of research which came to
> different conclusions was omitted from Taubes's incredibly researched
> book.

Well, I read Taubes book rather than the reviews. I certainly haven't
looked up every study he referenced (there's THOUSANDS of them), but I
have looked up a few that particularly interested me and I didn't see
that he had misrepresented them.


> Mendosa reports on a 60 day trial by dr. Bernstein. Try this
> instead. Have an angiogram or other picture taken of your arteries.

A heart scan would be best. It shows the actual plaque of your coronary
arteries.


> Go on Bernsteins fat and alcohol diet for a couple of years and have
> your arteries photographed again. Then tell me how good the diet is.

Yes, well... that was intended to put weight on underweight patients,
not to improve heart health. And Bernstein found it didn't work, so...


--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

dorsy1943 wrote:
> Alan, I googled Michael Fumento and found some articles he wrote. I
> have no way of knowing if either he or Taubes or anyone else has
> accurate facts. Yes, a few years ago I read Bernstein's book and seem
> to remember that he was working with type one diabetics and used
> insulin in his treatments, but it was a while ago and my memory is
> vague. I remember thinking it didn't apply to me at the time. If I
> can be more specific about finding the article by fumento I will get
> back to you. Computers are not my forte.

He addresses both types. I find it amusing cause some T2s say it
doesn't apply cause he is a T1 and some T1s say it doesn't apply cause
low-carb is mostly for T2s. Heh.

I keep it handy. When I got home from the hospital, it was the first
thing I read about insulin as I needed to learn fast and it was here
already. Now, I have his new copy. I don't do his diet and there's a
few things I disagree with. But I find it a valuable reference on many
things.


> I am aware that some people in this group are having excellent results
> with low carb. They would be crazy to change if it is keeping them
> healthy. I on the other hand have been doing great for the last 16
> years on high carb whole foods, low fat although often, I indulge in
> ice cream and potato chips and stuff that isn't good for me. However,
> in general I stick to high carb, whole foods. I do not take meds.

I'd say the same applies to you as to those in the group who low-carb;
if you're getting numbers you're happy with, why change it?


> Yesterday my fasting blood sugar was 78 and the day before it was 87.
> Often it is up to 100. If I eat a salad before I go to bed, my sugar
> is higher in the morning than if I eat a potato or a sandwich. I wish
> I could figure out this rotten disease.

Probably Dawn Phenomenon.


> There are studies which show
> that high carb, high fiber, low fat diet is better for diabetics.
> There are studies which show that low carb, higher fat is better for
> diabetics. Some people do well on one, some on the other, which of
> course provokes debate.

I suspect that health has a lot more to do with micronutrients than
macronutrients.

The advice I recently gave a nondiabetic friend was that low-carb vs.
low-fat didn't matter at all, just eat lots and lots of fruits and
veggies, so as to crowd the crap out of your diet. I personally believe
this is more important than the macronutrient percentage of a diet.

That begin said, I low-carb myself; I can't achieve good numbers without
drastically limiting carb, so I focus on nonstarchy veggies and
low-sugar fruits.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:35:50 -0500, Jackie Patti posted:

>dorsy1943 wrote:
>
>> Sorry, I did not explain what I read. Bernstein did a short
>> experiment in which he added 900 calories of fat to a diet and used
>> the alcohol to make it palatable. I can not remember where I just
>> read it and will have to search the net to get it back. He showed
>> that no extra weight was gained with the extra fat calories. I did
>> not mean to suggest that this was Bernstein's diet.
>
>I remmeber reading that also; he was trying to help patients who needed
>to gain weight and as I recall, this was ineffective.
>
>I don't recall where I read it either; I rarely store information about
>how to gain weight.

I read it recently. It was part of a post Alan S made, pointing to an
article by David Mendosa, entitled _Eat Fat, Grow Thin_, in which
Mendosa mentions the experiment.

http://www.healthcentral.com/diabete...t-grow-thin/1/

On Page 2 of the article, Mendosa mentions an article in the April
2007 issue of _Diabetes_ that talks about the mechanism behind the
seeming anomaly of a high-fat diet not causing weight gain. There is a
link to the article where he mentions it.

I am hoping someone can look at this and translate it for those of us
who are still wrestling with it.


--
Larry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada.
DX 24 Aug 07. D&E
Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin
Last A1c 8.1 (at DX)

On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:35:50 -0500, Jackie Patti posted:

>dorsy1943 wrote:
>
>> Sorry, I did not explain what I read. Bernstein did a short
>> experiment in which he added 900 calories of fat to a diet and used
>> the alcohol to make it palatable. I can not remember where I just
>> read it and will have to search the net to get it back. He showed
>> that no extra weight was gained with the extra fat calories. I did
>> not mean to suggest that this was Bernstein's diet.
>
>I remmeber reading that also; he was trying to help patients who needed
>to gain weight and as I recall, this was ineffective.
>
>I don't recall where I read it either; I rarely store information about
>how to gain weight.

oops. I just realized that the reference I mentioned and the post by
Alan, is actually the subject of this thread.

Call me Mr. Obvious.

--
Larry, T2, Saskatchewan, Canada.
DX 24 Aug 07. D&E
Metformin 2000mg, Ramipril, Simvastatin
Last A1c 8.1 (at DX)

Jackie Patti wrote:
> ...., just eat lots and lots of fruits and
> veggies, so as to crowd the crap out of your diet. ....

Wow. So you're an Atkins groupie. :-)

That's what he said in the book I read.
Either that book was unrepresentative of
his actual views or Fumento and all the
other attackers of the "high-fat Atkins
diet" are liars.

OK, I'm a liar, too. Atkins did not say
"lots of fruit and veggies." He said lots
of low-carb veggies.

--
Wes Groleau

Nobody believes a theoretical analysis -- except the guy who did it.
Everybody believes an experimental analysis -- except the guy who
did it.
-- Unknown

Wes Groleau wrote:
> Jackie Patti wrote:
>> ...., just eat lots and lots of fruits and
>> veggies, so as to crowd the crap out of your diet. ....
>
> Wow. So you're an Atkins groupie. :-)

Actually, I found his book one of the worst-written low-carb books out
there. I think he writes poorly and provides way too few references. I
prefer the Eades myself.


> That's what he said in the book I read.
> Either that book was unrepresentative of
> his actual views or Fumento and all the
> other attackers of the "high-fat Atkins
> diet" are liars.
>
> OK, I'm a liar, too. Atkins did not say
> "lots of fruit and veggies." He said lots
> of low-carb veggies.

Well, LOTS of low-carb veggies. But he also recommend fruits and even
grains, depending on whwere you are in the program.

I don't much like him, but he wasn't selling the bacon-cheeseburger diet
people often accuse him of.

--
http://www.ornery-geeks.org/consulting/

"Oleg Lego" <rat@atatatat.com> wrote in message
news:qbccl35a6lk8rm711a596qbolq7vc9ajtq@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:35:50 -0500, Jackie Patti posted:
>
>>dorsy1943 wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, I did not explain what I read. Bernstein did a short
>>> experiment in which he added 900 calories of fat to a diet and used
>>> the alcohol to make it palatable. I can not remember where I just
>>> read it and will have to search the net to get it back. He showed
>>> that no extra weight was gained with the extra fat calories. I did
>>> not mean to suggest that this was Bernstein's diet.
>>
>>I