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Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?
  1. #1
    louise Guest

    Default Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    For the first two weeks I was taking metformin 500mg with
    breakfast and 500mg with dinner. I was supposed to increase
    it starting today.

    Today, as prescribed by my doctor, I took 1000mg Metformin
    in the morning with breakfast and another 500mg with dinner.

    Before dinner, at 4:30, I felt tired - had a slice of
    cheese, 4 or 5 pecans and 8 oz 2% milk with a shot of
    espresso. My reading before this "snack" was 101

    Suddenly, right as I was sitting down to dinner at about 6
    (1 1/2 hours after snack), I felt really weak and dizzy.
    Took a reading and it was 79.

    Took my 500mg metformin and deliberately had an al dente
    pasta with salmon dinner (yes, pasta predominated) in a
    light cream sauce. I figured the cream sauce and the salmon
    would provide some fat and that I needed the carbs.

    1 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 91 - still felt
    tired but not weak.

    2 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 96 - still feel tired.

    QUESTION - is this a reaction to the 500mg increase in
    metformin and will I get used to it? Does it mean I'm
    taking too much metformin or does it mean this will happen
    for a few days and then my body will adjust?

    Prior to increasing the metformin, my after dinner numbers
    were in the 120s and 130s, and not in the low 90s as they
    were tonight.

    I'm also confused because it seems to me that most of these
    numbers (except maybe the 79), shouldn't make me feel tired.
    I'm under an impression they are "ideal". Or, should my
    glucose level have gone up more after a meal that was
    essentially pasta?

    Thanks once again for all your help.

    Louise





  2. #2
    % Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    louise wrote:
    > For the first two weeks I was taking metformin 500mg with
    > breakfast and 500mg with dinner. I was supposed to increase
    > it starting today.
    >
    > Today, as prescribed by my doctor, I took 1000mg Metformin
    > in the morning with breakfast and another 500mg with dinner.
    >
    > Before dinner, at 4:30, I felt tired - had a slice of
    > cheese, 4 or 5 pecans and 8 oz 2% milk with a shot of
    > espresso. My reading before this "snack" was 101
    >
    > Suddenly, right as I was sitting down to dinner at about 6
    > (1 1/2 hours after snack), I felt really weak and dizzy.
    > Took a reading and it was 79.
    >
    > Took my 500mg metformin and deliberately had an al dente
    > pasta with salmon dinner (yes, pasta predominated) in a
    > light cream sauce. I figured the cream sauce and the salmon
    > would provide some fat and that I needed the carbs.
    >
    > 1 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 91 - still felt
    > tired but not weak.
    >
    > 2 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 96 - still feel tired.
    >
    > QUESTION - is this a reaction to the 500mg increase in
    > metformin and will I get used to it? Does it mean I'm
    > taking too much metformin or does it mean this will happen
    > for a few days and then my body will adjust?
    >
    > Prior to increasing the metformin, my after dinner numbers
    > were in the 120s and 130s, and not in the low 90s as they
    > were tonight.
    >
    > I'm also confused because it seems to me that most of these
    > numbers (except maybe the 79), shouldn't make me feel tired.
    > I'm under an impression they are "ideal". Or, should my
    > glucose level have gone up more after a meal that was
    > essentially pasta?
    >
    > Thanks once again for all your help.
    >
    > Louise



    only your doctor knows for sure ,
    just watch the mixed bag of answers you get here ,
    and be really careful who's advise you follow ,
    one time they all fought here over whether i ,
    should eat bread with breakfast or not



  3. #3
    Thunnus Albacarus Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    louise <[email protected]> wrote in news:6fkek9Fc2dd7U1
    @mid.individual.net:

    > For the first two weeks I was taking metformin 500mg with
    > breakfast and 500mg with dinner. I was supposed to increase
    > it starting today.
    >
    > Today, as prescribed by my doctor, I took 1000mg Metformin
    > in the morning with breakfast and another 500mg with dinner.
    >
    > Before dinner, at 4:30, I felt tired - had a slice of
    > cheese, 4 or 5 pecans and 8 oz 2% milk with a shot of
    > espresso. My reading before this "snack" was 101
    >
    > Suddenly, right as I was sitting down to dinner at about 6
    > (1 1/2 hours after snack), I felt really weak and dizzy.
    > Took a reading and it was 79.
    >
    > Took my 500mg metformin and deliberately had an al dente
    > pasta with salmon dinner (yes, pasta predominated) in a
    > light cream sauce. I figured the cream sauce and the salmon
    > would provide some fat and that I needed the carbs.
    >
    > 1 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 91 - still felt
    > tired but not weak.
    >
    > 2 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 96 - still feel tired.
    >
    > QUESTION - is this a reaction to the 500mg increase in
    > metformin and will I get used to it? Does it mean I'm
    > taking too much metformin or does it mean this will happen
    > for a few days and then my body will adjust?
    >
    > Prior to increasing the metformin, my after dinner numbers
    > were in the 120s and 130s, and not in the low 90s as they
    > were tonight.
    >
    > I'm also confused because it seems to me that most of these
    > numbers (except maybe the 79), shouldn't make me feel tired.
    > I'm under an impression they are "ideal". Or, should my
    > glucose level have gone up more after a meal that was
    > essentially pasta?
    >
    > Thanks once again for all your help.
    >
    > Louise
    >
    >
    >
    >

    Er.. i would wait more than 12 hrs before questioning metformin, see if
    your getting the same symoptoms in a week.

  4. #4
    Helen Howes Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    For a start, Metformin takes a while to build up in the body. It's
    like putting cups full of water into a slowly leaking bucket - you
    don't think it makes much difference because the bucket always seems
    full, but if you don't put the cups in the bucket empties slowly.
    Estimates vary from two to three weeks for any new dose to take
    effect.. This means that any particular dose seems to have an overall
    effect rather than on a particular meal, although some here will argue
    that there is a more immediate result. In any case, you can't take an
    extra one to cover a heavy meal, as the mechanism of the drug is not
    as direct as that.

    It's possible you missed a peak and fall on your meter. Why eat the
    pasta? You're Type 2 on Metformin, it's very unlikely that you will
    get a life-threatening hypo unless you have had your liver stolen....
    You are not going to acquire immunity to carbs, sorry, and until your
    weight is at a good level, you should accept that you can't eat just
    *anything*....

    Tiredness? Well, perhaps you are just tired. Not everything in your
    life is Diabetes. It's hot here and I'm working hard, I get into bed
    and am out like a light. Not Diabetes, just life. Eat well, stop
    before you are full, walk more, and relax....

    And try to like yourself, darling....

    HH

  5. #5
    Shawn Hirn Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    In article <[email protected]>,
    louise <[email protected]> wrote:

    > For the first two weeks I was taking metformin 500mg with
    > breakfast and 500mg with dinner. I was supposed to increase
    > it starting today.
    >
    > Today, as prescribed by my doctor, I took 1000mg Metformin
    > in the morning with breakfast and another 500mg with dinner.
    >
    > Before dinner, at 4:30, I felt tired - had a slice of
    > cheese, 4 or 5 pecans and 8 oz 2% milk with a shot of
    > espresso. My reading before this "snack" was 101
    >
    > Suddenly, right as I was sitting down to dinner at about 6
    > (1 1/2 hours after snack), I felt really weak and dizzy.
    > Took a reading and it was 79.
    >
    > Took my 500mg metformin and deliberately had an al dente
    > pasta with salmon dinner (yes, pasta predominated) in a
    > light cream sauce. I figured the cream sauce and the salmon
    > would provide some fat and that I needed the carbs.
    >
    > 1 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 91 - still felt
    > tired but not weak.
    >
    > 2 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 96 - still feel tired.
    >
    > QUESTION - is this a reaction to the 500mg increase in
    > metformin and will I get used to it? Does it mean I'm
    > taking too much metformin or does it mean this will happen
    > for a few days and then my body will adjust?
    >
    > Prior to increasing the metformin, my after dinner numbers
    > were in the 120s and 130s, and not in the low 90s as they
    > were tonight.


    You might be coming off a sugar high. You should definitely contact your
    doctor firs thing tomorrow though.

  6. #6
    Michelle C Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?


    "louise" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > For the first two weeks I was taking metformin 500mg with breakfast and
    > 500mg with dinner. I was supposed to increase it starting today.
    >
    > Today, as prescribed by my doctor, I took 1000mg Metformin in the morning
    > with breakfast and another 500mg with dinner.
    >
    > Before dinner, at 4:30, I felt tired - had a slice of cheese, 4 or 5
    > pecans and 8 oz 2% milk with a shot of espresso. My reading before this
    > "snack" was 101
    >
    > Suddenly, right as I was sitting down to dinner at about 6 (1 1/2 hours
    > after snack), I felt really weak and dizzy. Took a reading and it was 79.
    >
    > Took my 500mg metformin and deliberately had an al dente pasta with salmon
    > dinner (yes, pasta predominated) in a light cream sauce. I figured the
    > cream sauce and the salmon would provide some fat and that I needed the
    > carbs.
    >
    > 1 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 91 - still felt tired but not
    > weak.
    >
    > 2 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 96 - still feel tired.
    >
    > QUESTION - is this a reaction to the 500mg increase in metformin and will
    > I get used to it? Does it mean I'm taking too much metformin or does it
    > mean this will happen for a few days and then my body will adjust?
    >
    > Prior to increasing the metformin, my after dinner numbers were in the
    > 120s and 130s, and not in the low 90s as they were tonight.
    >
    > I'm also confused because it seems to me that most of these numbers
    > (except maybe the 79), shouldn't make me feel tired. I'm under an
    > impression they are "ideal". Or, should my glucose level have gone up
    > more after a meal that was essentially pasta?
    >
    > Thanks once again for all your help.
    >
    > Louise


    Hi Louise,

    I don't take metformin, however, I've been reading the group for a long
    time, so I'll pass along what I've read. For many people, as Helen and
    Thunnus mentioned, it takes awhile before metformin has any effect.
    However, several have complained of feeling tired for awhile after upping
    their dose of metformin. (Susan can't take metformin at all, because it has
    so many adverse effects on her--tiredness being only one of them.) And one
    person, Willy, said that upping his dose of metformin seemed to have almost
    an immediate effect on his BG results (although he felt "hungover" after
    upping his dose). Perhaps, you fall into this group.

    So the reason for the tiredness could be the metformin itself, or the fact
    that your BGs were running a little lower than you are used to. There is
    yet another possibility to throw into the mix--you missed the spike caused
    by the carby meal and actually went high and then low. That will also make
    you tired. You could have a combination situation going on.

    As for eating the carbs, since you were having hypo symptoms, it might have
    been prudent to have a small amount of carbs, like one or two pieces of hard
    candy. However, it's not necessary to overload yourself with carbs, which
    can start the whole rollercoaster effect--going high and then low. If you
    can stick it out, your body will get used to the lower numbers and you'll
    feel better than you did before.

    I know it's hard work, but you are sorting it out Louise. This is perfectly
    normal.
    --
    Best regards,
    Michelle C., T2
    diet & exercise
    BMI 21.5



  7. #7
    Susan Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    x-no-archive: yes

    louise wrote:
    > For the first two weeks I was taking metformin 500mg with breakfast and
    > 500mg with dinner. I was supposed to increase it starting today.
    >
    > Today, as prescribed by my doctor, I took 1000mg Metformin in the
    > morning with breakfast and another 500mg with dinner.
    >
    > Before dinner, at 4:30, I felt tired - had a slice of cheese, 4 or 5
    > pecans and 8 oz 2% milk with a shot of espresso. My reading before this
    > "snack" was 101
    >
    > Suddenly, right as I was sitting down to dinner at about 6 (1 1/2 hours
    > after snack), I felt really weak and dizzy. Took a reading and it was 79.
    >
    > Took my 500mg metformin and deliberately had an al dente pasta with
    > salmon dinner (yes, pasta predominated) in a light cream sauce. I
    > figured the cream sauce and the salmon would provide some fat and that I
    > needed the carbs.
    >
    > 1 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 91 - still felt tired but not
    > weak.
    >
    > 2 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 96 - still feel tired.
    >
    > QUESTION - is this a reaction to the 500mg increase in metformin and
    > will I get used to it? Does it mean I'm taking too much metformin or
    > does it mean this will happen for a few days and then my body will adjust?
    >
    > Prior to increasing the metformin, my after dinner numbers were in the
    > 120s and 130s, and not in the low 90s as they were tonight.
    >
    > I'm also confused because it seems to me that most of these numbers
    > (except maybe the 79), shouldn't make me feel tired. I'm under an
    > impression they are "ideal". Or, should my glucose level have gone up
    > more after a meal that was essentially pasta?
    >
    > Thanks once again for all your help.
    >



    Two thoughts. First, fatigue is a very common side effect of metformin,
    possibly due to its adrenal suppressive effects, or the adrenal
    suppression by increasingly effective insulin.

    Second, if it lowered your bg that much (it's not a strong bg lowering
    drug, as a rule) you either don't need it all because you're already
    insulin sensitive, or you need a lot less.

    Susan

  8. #8
    Susan Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    x-no-archive: yes

    Michelle C wrote:

    >
    > Hi Louise,
    >
    > I don't take metformin, however, I've been reading the group for a long
    > time, so I'll pass along what I've read. For many people, as Helen and
    > Thunnus mentioned, it takes awhile before metformin has any effect.
    > However, several have complained of feeling tired for awhile after upping
    > their dose of metformin. (Susan can't take metformin at all, because it has
    > so many adverse effects on her--tiredness being only one of them.) And one
    > person, Willy, said that upping his dose of metformin seemed to have almost
    > an immediate effect on his BG results (although he felt "hungover" after
    > upping his dose). Perhaps, you fall into this group.


    Actually, I became severely fatigued by metformin at the very beginning
    both of the first two times I tried it, not after weeks or months, it
    was immediate. It was the later time, where I manged a year, that the
    increase in severity of my symptoms was so gradual and insidious that I
    didn't suspect the metformin until I connected my symptoms the the
    cramps and potassium loss it caused as well.

    Susan

  9. #9
    louise Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    Susan wrote:
    > x-no-archive: yes
    >
    > louise wrote:
    >> For the first two weeks I was taking metformin 500mg with breakfast
    >> and 500mg with dinner. I was supposed to increase it starting today.
    >>
    >> Today, as prescribed by my doctor, I took 1000mg Metformin in the
    >> morning with breakfast and another 500mg with dinner.
    >>
    >> Before dinner, at 4:30, I felt tired - had a slice of cheese, 4 or 5
    >> pecans and 8 oz 2% milk with a shot of espresso. My reading before
    >> this "snack" was 101
    >>
    >> Suddenly, right as I was sitting down to dinner at about 6 (1 1/2
    >> hours after snack), I felt really weak and dizzy. Took a reading and
    >> it was 79.
    >>
    >> Took my 500mg metformin and deliberately had an al dente pasta with
    >> salmon dinner (yes, pasta predominated) in a light cream sauce. I
    >> figured the cream sauce and the salmon would provide some fat and that
    >> I needed the carbs.
    >>
    >> 1 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 91 - still felt tired but
    >> not weak.
    >>
    >> 2 1/2 hours after dinner had a reading of 96 - still feel tired.
    >>
    >> QUESTION - is this a reaction to the 500mg increase in metformin and
    >> will I get used to it? Does it mean I'm taking too much metformin or
    >> does it mean this will happen for a few days and then my body will
    >> adjust?
    >>
    >> Prior to increasing the metformin, my after dinner numbers were in the
    >> 120s and 130s, and not in the low 90s as they were tonight.
    >>
    >> I'm also confused because it seems to me that most of these numbers
    >> (except maybe the 79), shouldn't make me feel tired. I'm under an
    >> impression they are "ideal". Or, should my glucose level have gone up
    >> more after a meal that was essentially pasta?
    >>
    >> Thanks once again for all your help.
    >>

    >
    >
    > Two thoughts. First, fatigue is a very common side effect of metformin,
    > possibly due to its adrenal suppressive effects, or the adrenal
    > suppression by increasingly effective insulin.
    >
    > Second, if it lowered your bg that much (it's not a strong bg lowering
    > drug, as a rule) you either don't need it all because you're already
    > insulin sensitive, or you need a lot less.
    >
    > Susan


    thanks - that's very helpful.

    Today I "bravely" tried again - 1000 in the AM and haven't
    done the evening yet. But I made some changes:

    I had the same breakfast but I added 1000mg of Omega 3 fish
    oils to my usual AM vitamin routine. I'm supposed to take
    these anyway because they tend to help depression and BP
    symptoms. I did this to increase the fat to help the carbs
    digest more slowly.

    Although I went up to 138 and then down to 100 (1 and 2
    hours), I never felt the drop.

    Then, dutifully, 3 - 4 hours later I had about 8 almonds.

    Then I had my afternoon Late (a true necessity) but, as
    suggested by someone else in the NG, instead of 2% milk, I
    had whole milk so as to increase the fat in relation to the
    carbs. I also had another handful of almonds with the late.

    Here I am, two hours later, and I didn't drop below 87 - and
    I feel fine!

    You may be right that I could stay on 1000/day, but I am
    supposed to increase the psychotropic drug that makes you
    fat(er) and....the possibility of losing weight with the
    metformin is very enticing. I don't find myself as hungry
    and that's a good start.

    Thoughts?

    Louise



  10. #10
    Susan Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    x-no-archive: yes

    louise wrote:

    > You may be right that I could stay on 1000/day, but I am supposed to
    > increase the psychotropic drug that makes you fat(er) and....the
    > possibility of losing weight with the metformin is very enticing. I
    > don't find myself as hungry and that's a good start.
    >
    > Thoughts?
    >



    Louise, I have several thoughts, and I hesitate to play arm chair
    diagnostician, but you sound as if you're not insulin resistant and
    don't need metformin to control your bg.

    Your psych illness and your bg issues may very possibly come from one
    single source, and if so, there are ways to treat them that don't cause
    diabetres and weight gain, and promote health by correcting the
    underlying mechanism.

    I don't want to pry into your diagnosis, but you may want to google up
    psychosis, psychotic depression, depression, bipolar disorder and
    mifepristone. Mental illnesses are often caused by excess cortisol or
    other derangement of the HPA axis. Mifepristone corrects the defect,
    works quickly and safely in these cases. I know many Cushing's disease
    patients who've had psych diagnoses and hospitalizations until some wise
    psychiatrist put their medical and psych issues together and called for
    endocrine workups.

    Something to discuss with your shrink, and if s/he is resistant, time to
    find a smarter shrink with your total health and wellness in mind.

    Susan

  11. #11
    louise Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    Susan wrote:
    > x-no-archive: yes
    >
    > louise wrote:
    >
    >> You may be right that I could stay on 1000/day, but I am supposed to
    >> increase the psychotropic drug that makes you fat(er) and....the
    >> possibility of losing weight with the metformin is very enticing. I
    >> don't find myself as hungry and that's a good start.
    >>
    >> Thoughts?
    >>

    >
    >
    > Louise, I have several thoughts, and I hesitate to play arm chair
    > diagnostician, but you sound as if you're not insulin resistant and
    > don't need metformin to control your bg.
    >
    > Your psych illness and your bg issues may very possibly come from one
    > single source, and if so, there are ways to treat them that don't cause
    > diabetres and weight gain, and promote health by correcting the
    > underlying mechanism.
    >
    > I don't want to pry into your diagnosis, but you may want to google up
    > psychosis, psychotic depression, depression, bipolar disorder and
    > mifepristone. Mental illnesses are often caused by excess cortisol or
    > other derangement of the HPA axis. Mifepristone corrects the defect,
    > works quickly and safely in these cases. I know many Cushing's disease
    > patients who've had psych diagnoses and hospitalizations until some wise
    > psychiatrist put their medical and psych issues together and called for
    > endocrine workups.
    >
    > Something to discuss with your shrink, and if s/he is resistant, time to
    > find a smarter shrink with your total health and wellness in mind.
    >
    > Susan


    I'm confused - I googled mifepristone and I got many
    references to an early abortion pill. How does this relate
    to psych. problems?

    As far as my psych problems are concerned, at the moment I'm
    seeing someone who mostly works with difficult to medicate
    people. Not because they're such difficult people, but
    because their bodies don't respond to most psych medications
    the same way most people do. My psych difficulties are
    definitely the result of a genetic tendency.

    I'm beginning to agree that I may not be insulin resistant.
    My bloods today remained quite good.

    BUT - would metformin still curb hunger and therefore help
    me to lose weight given my limited ability to exercise?

    It does seem like a lower dose of metformin would be enough
    to counteract the effects of the psych drug - but maybe I
    could lose some weight also?

    Louise

  12. #12
    Julie Bove Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?


    "louise" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..

    > I'm confused - I googled mifepristone and I got many references to an
    > early abortion pill. How does this relate to psych. problems?
    >
    > As far as my psych problems are concerned, at the moment I'm seeing
    > someone who mostly works with difficult to medicate people. Not because
    > they're such difficult people, but because their bodies don't respond to
    > most psych medications the same way most people do. My psych difficulties
    > are definitely the result of a genetic tendency.
    >
    > I'm beginning to agree that I may not be insulin resistant. My bloods
    > today remained quite good.
    >
    > BUT - would metformin still curb hunger and therefore help me to lose
    > weight given my limited ability to exercise?
    >
    > It does seem like a lower dose of metformin would be enough to counteract
    > the effects of the psych drug - but maybe I could lose some weight also?


    I've not heard that Metformin is supposed to decrease appetite. It can give
    you an upset stomach and I think this is the reason why it is purported to
    cause weight loss.



  13. #13
    Pat Durkin Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    "louise" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Susan wrote:
    >> x-no-archive: yes
    >>
    >> louise wrote:
    >>
    >>> You may be right that I could stay on 1000/day, but I am supposed to
    >>> increase the psychotropic drug that makes you fat(er) and....the
    >>> possibility of losing weight with the metformin is very enticing. I
    >>> don't find myself as hungry and that's a good start.
    >>>
    >>> Thoughts?
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >> Louise, I have several thoughts, and I hesitate to play arm chair
    >> diagnostician, but you sound as if you're not insulin resistant and
    >> don't need metformin to control your bg.
    >>
    >> Your psych illness and your bg issues may very possibly come from one
    >> single source, and if so, there are ways to treat them that don't
    >> cause diabetres and weight gain, and promote health by correcting the
    >> underlying mechanism.
    >>
    >> I don't want to pry into your diagnosis, but you may want to google
    >> up psychosis, psychotic depression, depression, bipolar disorder and
    >> mifepristone. Mental illnesses are often caused by excess cortisol
    >> or other derangement of the HPA axis. Mifepristone corrects the
    >> defect, works quickly and safely in these cases. I know many
    >> Cushing's disease patients who've had psych diagnoses and
    >> hospitalizations until some wise psychiatrist put their medical and
    >> psych issues together and called for endocrine workups.
    >>
    >> Something to discuss with your shrink, and if s/he is resistant,
    >> time to find a smarter shrink with your total health and wellness in
    >> mind. Susan

    >
    > I'm confused - I googled mifepristone and I got many
    > references to an early abortion pill. How does this relate
    > to psych. problems?
    >
    > As far as my psych problems are concerned, at the moment I'm
    > seeing someone who mostly works with difficult to medicate
    > people. Not because they're such difficult people, but
    > because their bodies don't respond to most psych medications
    > the same way most people do. My psych difficulties are
    > definitely the result of a genetic tendency.
    >
    > I'm beginning to agree that I may not be insulin resistant.
    > My bloods today remained quite good.
    >
    > BUT - would metformin still curb hunger and therefore help
    > me to lose weight given my limited ability to exercise?
    >
    > It does seem like a lower dose of metformin would be enough
    > to counteract the effects of the psych drug - but maybe I
    > could lose some weight also?
    >

    I've been on metformin (2500 mg daily) for 8 years now, and have
    experienced absolutely NO decline in appetite or hunger. I have been
    struggling for the past 2 months to lose weight. Exercise? Pah! That
    burns off a few calories, but is overrated when it comes to weight loss.

    No, for me, the exercise (mainly walking, but a few hours a week I spend
    on some weight machines at a gym) has built up muscle, toned up my ass,
    and generally made me feel more confident about getting up out of a
    chair or a tub, or even off the ground when I sit to play with the
    kiddies.

    But I have had to cut my potato helpings to 1/2--2/3 of previous, limit
    the batter-fried foods that I eat, consume more vegetables. . .greens or
    fiber-rich ones. And I am still worried that my blood pressure will be
    too high on the 12th when I visit my doctor. Oh, for breading and
    batters, I bought some "gram" flour, which is supposed to be from
    garbanzos. I haven't tried making hummus from it yet. That's because a
    lovely dip like that or that eggplant dip (Baba Ghanoush) simply tempt
    me to eat chips or bread.

    I will have lost in the neighborhood of 6 lbs by then (the 12 of Aug --
    my last BP test). In the past, getting that 5 or 6 lbs off has always
    brought my BP to a good safe level (under 120).

    But I insist that my dietary discipline, while not stringent, is
    effective. So I just keep on.


  14. #14
    krom Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    Why not try 500 in the morning and 500 before bed?

    KROM

    "louise" <[email protected]> wrote
    > You may be right that I could stay on 1000/day, but I am supposed to
    > increase the psychotropic drug that makes you fat(er) and....the
    > possibility of losing weight with the metformin is very enticing. I don't
    > find myself as hungry and that's a good start.
    >
    > Thoughts?
    >
    > Louise
    >
    >




  15. #15
    Nicky Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:58:07 -0400, louise <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >BUT - would metformin still curb hunger and therefore help
    >me to lose weight given my limited ability to exercise?


    No, it works another way - by reducing insulin resistance, allowing
    muscles to take up glucose in much the same way as exercise does. IR
    causes weight gain because an excess of both carbs and insulin is a
    signal to your body to stash the excess carbs away as fat. The
    diabetic low carb & exercise prescription attacks both those arms, by
    having fewer carbs around in the first place, and therefore less
    insulin produced to del with them; and exercised muscles to soak up
    any remaining carbs.

    >It does seem like a lower dose of metformin would be enough
    >to counteract the effects of the psych drug - but maybe I
    >could lose some weight also?


    That depends on the mechanism that the drug uses to put weight on. Is
    it fat weight, or water weight? You'll have built-in insulin
    resistance from the fibro, plus from whatever incidental inflammation
    it's producing (that C-reactive protein reading), so the metformin
    might have an effect irrespective of the psych drug.

    There's several ways of estimating your IR. One is your waist:hip
    ratio; another is the HDL:trigs ratio; if you can get fasting insulin
    and fasting glucose at the same time, there's also a calculated method
    called the HOMA model. Someone remind me what the good numbers are for
    the above?

    Nicky.
    T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
    D&E, 100ug thyroxine
    Last A1c 5.4% BMI 25

  16. #16
    Larry Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    On Aug 4, 5:34*am, Nicky <ukc802466...@btconnect.com> wrote:
    > On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:58:07 -0400, louise <lou...@invalid.invalid>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >BUT - would metformin still curb hunger and therefore help
    > >me to lose weight given my limited ability to exercise?

    >
    > No, it works another way - by reducing insulin resistance, allowing
    > muscles to take up glucose in much the same way as exercise does. IR
    > causes weight gain because an excess of both carbs and insulin is a
    > signal to your body to stash the excess carbs away as fat. The
    > diabetic low carb & exercise prescription attacks both those arms, by
    > having fewer carbs around in the first place, and therefore less
    > insulin produced to del with them; and exercised muscles to soak up
    > any remaining carbs.
    >
    > >It does seem like a lower dose of metformin would be enough
    > >to counteract the effects of the psych drug - but maybe I
    > >could lose some weight also?

    >
    > That depends on the mechanism that the drug uses to put weight on. Is
    > it fat weight, or water weight? You'll have built-in insulin
    > resistance from the fibro, plus from whatever incidental inflammation
    > it's producing (that C-reactive protein reading), so the metformin
    > might have an effect irrespective of the psych drug.
    >
    > There's several ways of estimating your IR. One is your waist:hip
    > ratio; another is the HDL:trigs ratio; if you can get fasting insulin
    > and fasting glucose at the same time, there's also a calculated method
    > called the HOMA model. Someone remind me what the good numbers are for
    > the above?
    >
    > Nicky.
    > T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
    > D&E, 100ug thyroxine
    > Last A1c 5.4% *BMI 25


    Nicky: I should remind you that metformin's ability to decrease IR is
    secondary to 1) weight reduction 2) decreased Carb adsorption in the
    stomach and 3) decreased release of glucose from the liver. Metformin
    has a rather weak effect on improving lipids and is usually most
    effective that way in over weight people even non-diabetics.

    Larry

  17. #17
    louise Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    Nicky wrote:
    > On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:58:07 -0400, louise <[email protected]>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> BUT - would metformin still curb hunger and therefore help
    >> me to lose weight given my limited ability to exercise?

    >
    > No, it works another way - by reducing insulin resistance, allowing
    > muscles to take up glucose in much the same way as exercise does. IR
    > causes weight gain because an excess of both carbs and insulin is a
    > signal to your body to stash the excess carbs away as fat. The
    > diabetic low carb & exercise prescription attacks both those arms, by
    > having fewer carbs around in the first place, and therefore less
    > insulin produced to del with them; and exercised muscles to soak up
    > any remaining carbs.
    >
    >> It does seem like a lower dose of metformin would be enough
    >> to counteract the effects of the psych drug - but maybe I
    >> could lose some weight also?

    >
    > That depends on the mechanism that the drug uses to put weight on. Is
    > it fat weight, or water weight? You'll have built-in insulin
    > resistance from the fibro, plus from whatever incidental inflammation
    > it's producing (that C-reactive protein reading), so the metformin
    > might have an effect irrespective of the psych drug.
    >
    > There's several ways of estimating your IR. One is your waist:hip
    > ratio; another is the HDL:trigs ratio; if you can get fasting insulin
    > and fasting glucose at the same time, there's also a calculated method
    > called the HOMA model. Someone remind me what the good numbers are for
    > the above?
    >
    > Nicky.
    > T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
    > D&E, 100ug thyroxine
    > Last A1c 5.4% BMI 25


    Hi,

    The weight is fat weight - I know this because people never
    lose it - or have a very hard time. Drugs that cause it are
    many SSRI anti-depressants such as Paxil and Zoloft, along
    with several mood stabilizers such as Depakote - the drug in
    question for me. I have tried others that are less weight
    prone but can't take them for various reasons.

    My C reactive protein has always been high (at least 20
    years), but it is a little higher as of the last reading a
    month or two ago. No one knows why and they suggest it's
    probably from the fibro.

    Waist to hip ratio is lousy - didn't used to be before all
    the psych drugs.
    Waist = 43.5"
    Hips = 46"

    At the same time, letter from my internist accompanying my
    latest blood tests calls my lipid readings "very good". I
    don't eat much cholesterol, take fish oils and apparently
    have a high percentage of the "good" cholesterol.

    My Psychiatrist looked at the same lab tests and felt that a
    fasting blood sugar of 106, combined with serum cholesterol
    of 107 (both 8+ above the high normal), plus my weight and
    its distribution, was a good reason for me to be concerned -
    especially about taking any drug that would normally add weight.

    He also suggested it was likely that I was pre-diabetic, or
    bordering on same. I believe he also mentioned the
    C-Reactive Protein.

    Thus the recommendation for Metformin.

    I am building up the metformin slowly and it is now the
    third week and I've started the 1500mg. So far, aside from
    some early bouts of diahrrea, I have felt very little nausea
    but have definitely experienced less of an interest in food
    and it seems to me I'm eating less. Nevertheless, the scale
    remains the same. Of course I also started the Depakote at
    the same time . The 1500mg Metformin has caused noticeable
    fatigue and one episode of dizziness the first day. The
    fatigue is still there.

    So either the metformin is balancing out the otherwise
    weight gaining effects of the Depakote, or it takes more
    than 3 weeks (building slowly), or.....it isn't going to work!

    There is no question however, that my glucose levels are
    down as measured by the monitor at various times in the last
    few days. Not too low, just not at the high end or above.

    Thanks for all your help.

    Louise

    Louise

  18. #18
    bgl Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    "Pat Durkin" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:g75u4d$t4$[email protected]..
    >>

    > I have been struggling for the past 2 months to lose weight. Exercise?
    > Pah! That burns off a few calories, but is overrated when it comes to
    > weight loss.
    >


    Maybe it doesn't work for you, but it worked a treat for me.
    Lost 50 lbs over nearly a year, kept it off for 9+ yrs now.

    It wasn't just, or not so much, in the "burn off calories" part of the
    equation, though I'm sure that helped. The exercise helped me control my
    appetite *&* what I found "tasty" i.e. what I wanted or was at least willing
    to eat.

    Of course, I had to do my part by paying attention to what & how much I ate.
    Speak severely to self "yes, that *is* enough...." &
    "yes you *do* need to eat some salad today....."
    bj




  19. #19
    Susan Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    x-no-archive: yes

    louise wrote:

    > I'm confused - I googled mifepristone and I got many references to an
    > early abortion pill. How does this relate to psych. problems?


    It's a steroid blocker, and it's the generic name for RU-486. You have
    to google it up with the psych diagnosis in the search term.

    >
    > As far as my psych problems are concerned, at the moment I'm seeing
    > someone who mostly works with difficult to medicate people. Not because
    > they're such difficult people, but because their bodies don't respond to
    > most psych medications the same way most people do. My psych
    > difficulties are definitely the result of a genetic tendency.


    Which is exactly where mifepristone tends to be most helpful. Just
    something to read up on and to discuss with your doc or another one.
    If this doc is not considering endocrine issues as the basis for such
    cases, I'd be concerned by that.

    >
    > I'm beginning to agree that I may not be insulin resistant. My bloods
    > today remained quite good.


    My fasting insulin is about half of what a normal, healthy teenager's is.

    >
    > BUT - would metformin still curb hunger and therefore help me to lose
    > weight given my limited ability to exercise?


    Possibly, or it could backfire and cause your body to pump out even more
    of the stress hormones you don't want more of to overcome the adrenal
    supressive effects.

    >
    > It does seem like a lower dose of metformin would be enough to
    > counteract the effects of the psych drug - but maybe I could lose some
    > weight also?


    IF, and this has to be investigated, your issue is stress hormone
    excess, cortisol for instance, blocking it should also lead to weight
    loss. The same hormonal psych disorders that respond to mifepristone
    also cause obesity.

    Susan

  20. #20
    Michelle C Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?


    "louise" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > Nicky wrote:
    >> On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:58:07 -0400, louise <[email protected]>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> BUT - would metformin still curb hunger and therefore help me to lose
    >>> weight given my limited ability to exercise?

    >>
    >> No, it works another way - by reducing insulin resistance, allowing
    >> muscles to take up glucose in much the same way as exercise does. IR
    >> causes weight gain because an excess of both carbs and insulin is a
    >> signal to your body to stash the excess carbs away as fat. The
    >> diabetic low carb & exercise prescription attacks both those arms, by
    >> having fewer carbs around in the first place, and therefore less
    >> insulin produced to del with them; and exercised muscles to soak up
    >> any remaining carbs.
    >>
    >>> It does seem like a lower dose of metformin would be enough to
    >>> counteract the effects of the psych drug - but maybe I could lose some
    >>> weight also?

    >>
    >> That depends on the mechanism that the drug uses to put weight on. Is
    >> it fat weight, or water weight? You'll have built-in insulin
    >> resistance from the fibro, plus from whatever incidental inflammation
    >> it's producing (that C-reactive protein reading), so the metformin
    >> might have an effect irrespective of the psych drug.
    >>
    >> There's several ways of estimating your IR. One is your waist:hip
    >> ratio; another is the HDL:trigs ratio; if you can get fasting insulin
    >> and fasting glucose at the same time, there's also a calculated method
    >> called the HOMA model. Someone remind me what the good numbers are for
    >> the above?
    >>
    >> Nicky.
    >> T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
    >> D&E, 100ug thyroxine
    >> Last A1c 5.4% BMI 25

    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > The weight is fat weight - I know this because people never lose it - or
    > have a very hard time. Drugs that cause it are many SSRI anti-depressants
    > such as Paxil and Zoloft, along with several mood stabilizers such as
    > Depakote - the drug in question for me. I have tried others that are less
    > weight prone but can't take them for various reasons.
    >
    > My C reactive protein has always been high (at least 20 years), but it is
    > a little higher as of the last reading a month or two ago. No one knows
    > why and they suggest it's probably from the fibro.
    >
    > Waist to hip ratio is lousy - didn't used to be before all the psych
    > drugs.
    > Waist = 43.5"
    > Hips = 46"
    >
    > At the same time, letter from my internist accompanying my latest blood
    > tests calls my lipid readings "very good". I don't eat much cholesterol,
    > take fish oils and apparently have a high percentage of the "good"
    > cholesterol.
    >
    > My Psychiatrist looked at the same lab tests and felt that a fasting blood
    > sugar of 106, combined with serum cholesterol of 107 (both 8+ above the
    > high normal), plus my weight and its distribution, was a good reason for
    > me to be concerned - especially about taking any drug that would normally
    > add weight.
    >
    > He also suggested it was likely that I was pre-diabetic, or bordering on
    > same. I believe he also mentioned the C-Reactive Protein.
    >
    > Thus the recommendation for Metformin.
    >
    > I am building up the metformin slowly and it is now the third week and
    > I've started the 1500mg. So far, aside from some early bouts of diahrrea,
    > I have felt very little nausea but have definitely experienced less of an
    > interest in food and it seems to me I'm eating less. Nevertheless, the
    > scale remains the same. Of course I also started the Depakote at the same
    > time . The 1500mg Metformin has caused noticeable fatigue and one episode
    > of dizziness the first day. The fatigue is still there.
    >
    > So either the metformin is balancing out the otherwise weight gaining
    > effects of the Depakote, or it takes more than 3 weeks (building slowly),
    > or.....it isn't going to work!
    >
    > There is no question however, that my glucose levels are down as measured
    > by the monitor at various times in the last few days. Not too low, just
    > not at the high end or above.
    >
    > Thanks for all your help.
    >
    > Louise
    >
    > Louise


    Hi Louise,

    From what I'm reading, it appears that the metformin is having some benefits
    for you. Obviously, your BG numbers are better, which is always a good
    thing, imo. As for the seeming appetite suppressant effects, some people
    have unusual reactions to medications, so even though the metformin doesn't
    usually suppress appetite, maybe it does for you. Or maybe it has that
    affect in combination with the depakote. All in all, you are doing
    well--not gaining weight in the face of a drug that usually causes it, and
    getting your BG numbers down is a step in the right direction.
    --
    Best regards,
    Michelle C., T2
    diet & exercise
    BMI 21.5



  21. #21
    Nicky Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 11:17:38 -0400, "bgl" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Of course, I had to do my part by paying attention to what & how much I ate.
    >Speak severely to self "yes, that *is* enough...." &
    >"yes you *do* need to eat some salad today....."


    BJ, did you get "feeling full" signals before you got the weight? And
    how did you cope with being hungry, if you did?

    Nicky.
    T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
    D&E, 100ug thyroxine
    Last A1c 5.4% BMI 25

  22. #22
    Nicky Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 07:34:35 -0700 (PDT), Larry <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >Nicky: I should remind you that metformin's ability to decrease IR is
    >secondary to 1) weight reduction 2) decreased Carb adsorption in the
    >stomach and 3) decreased release of glucose from the liver. Metformin
    >has a rather weak effect on improving lipids and is usually most
    >effective that way in over weight people even non-diabetics.


    Larry, for me - the weight reduction thing never happened at all with
    metformin. The IR effects on the liver, with consequent decreased
    hepatic production, were its raison d'etre, from my PoV. I used it to
    cure a liver dump from hell, caused by (I suspect) some NAFLD and fed
    by hepatic IR.

    From Louise's PoV - I don't think it matters what the mechanism is.
    She clearly has truncal obesity and therefore IR by definition;
    metformin appears to be controlling a possible weight gain from her
    other meds, and hopefully is having further-reaching benefits also.

    Nicky.
    T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
    D&E, 100ug thyroxine
    Last A1c 5.4% BMI 25

  23. #23
    W. Baker Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    Nicky <[email protected]> wrote:
    : On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 07:34:35 -0700 (PDT), Larry <[email protected]>
    : wrote:

    : >Nicky: I should remind you that metformin's ability to decrease IR is
    : >secondary to 1) weight reduction 2) decreased Carb adsorption in the
    : >stomach and 3) decreased release of glucose from the liver. Metformin
    : >has a rather weak effect on improving lipids and is usually most
    : >effective that way in over weight people even non-diabetics.

    : Larry, for me - the weight reduction thing never happened at all with
    : metformin. The IR effects on the liver, with consequent decreased
    : hepatic production, were its raison d'etre, from my PoV. I used it to
    : cure a liver dump from hell, caused by (I suspect) some NAFLD and fed
    : by hepatic IR.

    : From Louise's PoV - I don't think it matters what the mechanism is.
    : She clearly has truncal obesity and therefore IR by definition;
    : metformin appears to be controlling a possible weight gain from her
    : other meds, and hopefully is having further-reaching benefits also.

    : Nicky.

    What I recall about Metformn is that is may account fo rabout 8 lbs of
    weight loss, but, unlike Byetta, not a ontinuous loss. It does not, like
    inslin, actos, sulfs etc. tend to add weight, which is why it iss a good
    med fo robese ciabetics (and pre-diabetic). I won't make any weight loss
    program you are on more difficult.

    Wendy

  24. #24
    bgl Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    "Nicky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]..
    > On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 11:17:38 -0400, "bgl" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Of course, I had to do my part by paying attention to what & how much I
    >>ate.
    >>Speak severely to self "yes, that *is* enough...." &
    >>"yes you *do* need to eat some salad today....."

    >
    > BJ, did you get "feeling full" signals before you got the weight? And
    > how did you cope with being hungry, if you did?
    >


    If you mean before diagnosis -- yes, I knew I was eating too much, I could
    feel myself being stuffed (& ready for slaughter?) but ignored it as I was
    enjoying myself! It wasn't even cake & cookies -- but maybe a nice plate of
    spagetti, a heap of rice & Chinese veg, homemade chili on rice, etc. along
    with a good book while I lapped it up.....And I hadn't gotten to where I
    minded the weight all that much.

    After diagnosis -- I was on d&e only. I didn't go low carb but I did reduce
    them a lot. So in order to eat at least somewhat normally I had to spread it
    all out. I was always either about to eat, eating, washing up after eating,
    or planning my next meal or snack! Some of my meals were split up with an
    hour in between course 1 & course 2. It got old. And inconvenient when I
    hardly ever had more than an hour or two in between so I could do anything
    that took time.

    As to hunger -- mostly during the night; insomnia doesn't help with this
    :-) -- I had to speak to myself severely about that! Sometimes I would have
    a wee bit of cracker just to quiet the rumbles (still do). I figured
    (correctly, as it turned out) that I would adjust after a while.
    Also, lots & lots of diet soda!

    I was pretty much eating on a whole new routine, not on a "diet" but a new
    lifestyle. So as the weight came off & my weightloss slowed & eventually
    stopped I didn't really change things (though there have been plenty of
    tweaks in 10yrs) except for being able to eat a "meal" (all in one go)
    instead of "2 snacks adding up to a meal" when I started taking meds.
    As time went on & my exercise got to be a bit more, I was able to increase
    the treats. But I still have to remind self that I must eat salad. :-)
    bj






  25. #25
    Nicky Guest

    Default Re: Metformin increase and results - why do I feel bad?

    On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 12:29:29 -0400, "bgl" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >If you mean before diagnosis -- yes, I knew I was eating too much, I could
    >feel myself being stuffed (& ready for slaughter?) but ignored it as I was
    >enjoying myself!


    I wonder if that's one of the criteria for low carbing? - I didn't
    have anything like that feeling, and didn't until I lost a lot of
    weight.

    >I was pretty much eating on a whole new routine, not on a "diet" but a new
    >lifestyle.


    Yeah, that's absolutely the key, isn't it. And remembering the salad
    :P

    Nicky.
    T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
    D&E, 100ug thyroxine
    Last A1c 5.4% BMI 25

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