Days off, Grilling, Dr appt and beer

On Tue, 20 May 2008 08:52:11 -0400, ted rosenberg
<tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote:

>Well, my A1c was up to 6.1 ths time !!
>
>That is because I have taken NO Insulin for over 2 months
>
>I was getting very brittle, and having lots of hypos, so I stopped
>completely. It takes me about 3 hours to completely recover after meals,
>but, if I take some Novolog to drop my 2 hr, I go hypo at about 3 hours
>and need to take food again
>
>2 years ago I was taking about 400 units a day.
>
>Now I am completely off of Insulin, and have lost over 80 lbs.
>
>Hooray for Byetta

Go Ted!!! That's great progress. I bet you do a David Mendosa and hit
the 4% club in no time!

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25

On Tue, 20 May 2008 16:14:48 -0400, ted rosenberg
<tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote:

>Trinkwasser wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 May 2008 08:52:11 -0400, ted rosenberg
>> <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Well, my A1c was up to 6.1 ths time !!
>>>
>>> That is because I have taken NO Insulin for over 2 months
>>>
>>> I was getting very brittle, and having lots of hypos, so I stopped
>>> completely. It takes me about 3 hours to completely recover after meals,
>>> but, if I take some Novolog to drop my 2 hr, I go hypo at about 3 hours
>>> and need to take food again
>>>
>>> 2 years ago I was taking about 400 units a day.
>>>
>>> Now I am completely off of Insulin, and have lost over 80 lbs.
>>>
>>> Hooray for Byetta
>>>
>>
>> Kinda good news, bad news eh?
>>
>> 80 lbs is excellent and 6.1 isn;t that far from 5.9 <G>
>>
>I'll take 6.1 any day, it comes with no insulin, no hypos, continuing
>weight loss, lack of hunger,..........

I reckon you'll be back in the fives by next test if you go on like
this

Have you had the Great Pants Sale yet?

On Tue, 20 May 2008 21:24:12 -0600, Tiger_Lily <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Michelle C" <bookbug1@frys.com> wrote in message
>> news:g0vt9l$9st$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>
>>> "Johnnie McCoy" <johnniemccoy@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:wyHYj.11112$IK5.9090@trnddc04...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Tiger_Lily" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:69gtp6F336s1dU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:g0uhhs$ajd$1@aioe.org...
>>>>>>> Well, my A1c was up to 6.1 ths time !!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is because I have taken NO Insulin for over 2 months
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was getting very brittle, and having lots of hypos, so I stopped
>>>>>>> completely. It takes me about 3 hours to completely recover after
>>>>>>> meals, but, if I take some Novolog to drop my 2 hr, I go hypo at
>>>>>>> about 3 hours and need to take food again
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2 years ago I was taking about 400 units a day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now I am completely off of Insulin, and have lost over 80 lbs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hooray for Byetta
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I wrong, or does this demonstrate something I've suspected for
>>>>>> some time; that is, perhaps some doctors should reevaluate the use
>>>>>> of insulin as - I don't know; the word "crutch" comes to mind, and
>>>>>> start thinking more along the lines of oral meds, proper diet and
>>>>>> exercise? Just a suspicion, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>> actually 'current' thought is to use insulin SOONER rather than
>>>>> later with a type 2 diabetic
>>>>>
>>>>> of course, Byetta is a NEW med, and it has obvious advantages for a
>>>>> type 2 who needs to lose weight, along with the good bg control it
>>>>> allows
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> kate
>>>>>
>>>> Please keep in mind, I honestly don't know what I'm talking about,
>>>> here; just some niggling little feeling that, initially, exhausting
>>>> every "most natural" course - as close to "med-less" as possible (and
>>>> proceeding up the ladder of treatment from there) - seems the most
>>>> logical path.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> I think the primary issue is to maintain normalized BGs. Since a lot
>>> of patients are leery of using insulin, despite the fact they don't
>>> have good control, they're walking around with out of control BGs,
>>> when proper use of insulin would ameliorate the problem. However, if
>>> normal BGs can be achieved through other means, then insulin isn't
>>> necessary. (However, I'll admit to being leery of a lot of the brand
>>> new oral diabetic meds, since a few of the newer ones have bad side
>>> effects. I'd use insulin first.)
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Michelle C., T2
>>>
>> What I'm thinking about are those who jump on insulin because they don't
>> want to be bothered with d&e - patients and doctors. Do you think that
>> happens?
>>
>> John
>nope, i don't think that happens
>
>right now, what i commonly hear is the Dr talking about D&E and 'if you
>don't comply, you will end up on insulin' with insulin being a 'threat'
>
>a LOT of type 2's will radically improve their fasting levels (assuming
>that's the one reading they have troubles with) simply by adding either
>levemir or lantus before bedtime
>
>of course, just my 2 cents

If Old Al was still here he'd agree with you, there are twodifferent
treatment paradigms, one is to do as little as possible for as long as
possible and the other is to be majorly proactive at first and maybe
back off later when the BG has become more or less normalised and
fewer meds need to be thrown at you.

My vote's for the latter approach.

There;s no guarantee but there's a strong association between control
and lack of complications.

"Priscilla Ballou" <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:vze23t8n-781F10.21581220052008@individual.net...
> In article <48338098$0$5700$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> "Evelyn" <evelyn.ruut@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Don't be leery of it. It is an excellent drug.
>>
>> I did get a few twinges of nausea with it, but only for a tiny bit.
>> Stick
>> with the 5 mcg pen until you feel it isn't working anymore. I switched
>> to
>> the ten mcg pen too soon and I did feel some nausea and I felt too cold
>> all
>> the time at first, but it wasn't really bad at all. It passes.
>>
>> I did get some constipation issues with the drug, but it was easily dealt
>> with.
>>
>> The benefits outweighed the drawbacks for me. Good luck trying it!
>
> Thanks, Evelyn. I think I will ask about it. Maybe I can get it from
> my relatively clueless internist if I can't find a good endo quickly.
> The weight loss benefit really attracts me. *sigh*
>
> Priscilla, T2


Hi Priscilla,

I lost about 28 lbs with it. I just didn't feel all that hungry, so I ate
less. That is a really good thing for most of us! I have heard of
others who have lost even more.

My physicians assistant (not even a doctor) prescribed it first for me, so
if you can get your doc to prescribe it, great.

I was afraid of using the needle at first, but it turned out to be so easy I
wondered what on earth I had been afraid of.

Good luck!

Ev

I got very sick on Byetta..it wasn't just nausea it was feeling poorly..all
I could do is lie down and rest...I kept on trying Byetta but just felt
worse...however I really think I am a minority in this. My Dr told me of the
patients he had that were on Byetta, could either tolerate it or they
couldn't...guess I'm one that can't, I think you should try it , I have
heard very good things about it.
Jacquie
"Priscilla H. Ballou" <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:vze23t8n-29497C.17450720052008@individual.net...
> In article <69gtp6F336s1dU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Tiger_Lily <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> of course, Byetta is a NEW med, and it has obvious advantages for a type
>> 2 who needs to lose weight, along with the good bg control it allows
>
> I'm leery to try it because of the reputation for nausea. Of the Byetta
> users here, how many have experienced unpleasant side-effects with
> Byetta?
>
> Nausea?
>
> Gas?
>
> What?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Priscilla, T2

In article <K7idnSDD1sbnGanVnZ2dnUVZ_h_inZ2d@earthlink.com> ,
"jacquie" <happikat694@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I got very sick on Byetta..it wasn't just nausea it was feeling poorly..all
> I could do is lie down and rest...I kept on trying Byetta but just felt
> worse...however I really think I am a minority in this. My Dr told me of the
> patients he had that were on Byetta, could either tolerate it or they
> couldn't...guess I'm one that can't, I think you should try it , I have
> heard very good things about it.
> Jacquie

Thanks, Jacquie. I appreciate the input.

Priscilla

In article <483481ce$0$30527$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
"Evelyn" <evelyn.ruut@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Priscilla Ballou" <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:vze23t8n-781F10.21581220052008@individual.net...
> > In article <48338098$0$5700$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>,
> > "Evelyn" <evelyn.ruut@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Don't be leery of it. It is an excellent drug.
> >>
> >> I did get a few twinges of nausea with it, but only for a tiny bit.
> >> Stick
> >> with the 5 mcg pen until you feel it isn't working anymore. I switched
> >> to
> >> the ten mcg pen too soon and I did feel some nausea and I felt too cold
> >> all
> >> the time at first, but it wasn't really bad at all. It passes.
> >>
> >> I did get some constipation issues with the drug, but it was easily dealt
> >> with.
> >>
> >> The benefits outweighed the drawbacks for me. Good luck trying it!
> >
> > Thanks, Evelyn. I think I will ask about it. Maybe I can get it from
> > my relatively clueless internist if I can't find a good endo quickly.
> > The weight loss benefit really attracts me. *sigh*
> >
> > Priscilla, T2
>
>
> Hi Priscilla,
>
> I lost about 28 lbs with it. I just didn't feel all that hungry, so I ate
> less. That is a really good thing for most of us! I have heard of
> others who have lost even more.
>
> My physicians assistant (not even a doctor) prescribed it first for me, so
> if you can get your doc to prescribe it, great.
>
> I was afraid of using the needle at first, but it turned out to be so easy I
> wondered what on earth I had been afraid of.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Ev

Thanks, Ev.

bj wrote:
> "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
> news:g11bvl$joa$1@aioe.org...
>
>> Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>>
>>> Please keep in mind, I honestly don't know what I'm talking about, here;
>>> just some niggling little feeling that, initially, exhausting every "most
>>> natural" course - as close to "med-less" as possible (and proceeding up
>>> the ladder of treatment from there) - seems the most logical path.
>>>
>
>
>> You are not niggling, you are an active danger to yourself and others
>> Try some "natural" cure - like Cyanide, or Deadly Nightshade, OR...
>>
>> "Natural" is a code word for " I am a fraud, and want to sell you
>> something which never worked instead of real medicine"
>>
>
> Um, Ted, d&e are "natural" & there are plenty of folk here who take that
> tack to the max they can before even thinking about any meds. I didn't go
> the max d&e but I did try it for several years. My results were fine, but my
> lifestyle & routine got too burdensome or something, so I asked for some
> meds to help with the ppbg problem.
> bj
>
Two things,
1)
You should not try D&R because it is "natural" You should try it only if
it is effective! - "natural" is only used by frauds or dupes.
2) Current theory is against D&E unless you are under 110 . Theory may
change again next week, but, at least currently, they are recognizing
that D&E is not a good idea in most people
>
>

Michelle C wrote:<snip>
> Hi Kate,
>
> Yeah, insulin should not be used as a threat, like "you've been a bad boy
> and here's your punishment". However, it seems I've heard of a number of
> people who are put on oral meds, like metformin and given no instruction
> about d & e. For example, I had dinner with my grandparents and a married
> couple with whom they've been long time friends. The man is diabetic. When
> dinner was finished, desert was offered. I said, I don't eat desert because
> I manage my diabetes with diet. The man looked at me like he had absolutely
> no clue what I was talking about and commenced to eating his pie. The thing
> of it is, I really don't think he had a clue--not that he was in denial. I
> think the doctor gave him a pill, said "take this" and that was the end of
> it.
>
> Hopefully, before one gets to insulin there is some effort to educate the
> patient about d & e. But I bet if my grandparents' friend gets to the point
> he needs insulin, his doctor will put him on it, and tell him to "take this
> shot".
>

So what ? this guy did not WANT to know - I have known people like him
I had a friend (now deceased) who, when we went out to dinner, had a
huge plate of pasta, a basket of garlic bread, a bowl of soup, BUT,
since he was diabetic, a HUGE apple pastry which was "no sugar added ".
This was an otherwise intelligent man, who'I miss, but he would NOT test
properly, look at his blood tests, or try to moderate his eating habits.

Michelle C wrote:

> Hi Kate,
>
> Yeah, insulin should not be used as a threat, like "you've been a bad boy
> and here's your punishment". However, it seems I've heard of a number of
> people who are put on oral meds, like metformin and given no instruction
> about d & e. For example, I had dinner with my grandparents and a married
> couple with whom they've been long time friends. The man is diabetic. When
> dinner was finished, desert was offered. I said, I don't eat desert because
> I manage my diabetes with diet. The man looked at me like he had absolutely
> no clue what I was talking about and commenced to eating his pie. The thing
> of it is, I really don't think he had a clue--not that he was in denial. I
> think the doctor gave him a pill, said "take this" and that was the end of
> it.
>
> Hopefully, before one gets to insulin there is some effort to educate the
> patient about d & e. But I bet if my grandparents' friend gets to the point
> he needs insulin, his doctor will put him on it, and tell him to "take this
> shot".

oh, i totally believe what you have written here

my neighbour was told 'take this pill twice a day, keep on your diet,
and come back in a month'

that was ? 18 months ago now, and this Dr is HAPPY with a fasting bg
level of 15 or lower!!!!!!!!!!!

he'll probably never put my neighbour on insulin (because my neighbour
won't live that long )

--
kate
type 1 since 1987
www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.diabetes-support.org.uk/n...diagnosed.html

"ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
news:g12o5j$okq$1@aioe.org...
> Michelle C wrote:<snip>
>> Hi Kate,
>>
>> Yeah, insulin should not be used as a threat, like "you've been a bad boy
>> and here's your punishment". However, it seems I've heard of a number of
>> people who are put on oral meds, like metformin and given no instruction
>> about d & e. For example, I had dinner with my grandparents and a
>> married couple with whom they've been long time friends. The man is
>> diabetic. When dinner was finished, desert was offered. I said, I don't
>> eat desert because I manage my diabetes with diet. The man looked at me
>> like he had absolutely no clue what I was talking about and commenced to
>> eating his pie. The thing of it is, I really don't think he had a
>> clue--not that he was in denial. I think the doctor gave him a pill,
>> said "take this" and that was the end of it.
>>
>> Hopefully, before one gets to insulin there is some effort to educate the
>> patient about d & e. But I bet if my grandparents' friend gets to the
>> point he needs insulin, his doctor will put him on it, and tell him to
>> "take this shot".
>>
>
> So what ? this guy did not WANT to know - I have known people like him
> I had a friend (now deceased) who, when we went out to dinner, had a huge
> plate of pasta, a basket of garlic bread, a bowl of soup, BUT, since he
> was diabetic, a HUGE apple pastry which was "no sugar added ". This was
> an otherwise intelligent man, who'I miss, but he would NOT test properly,
> look at his blood tests, or try to moderate his eating habits.
>
>
I think the problem is, it's hard to deny yourself eating pleasure when
nothing obvious happens if you don't. For example, if I didn't test, I
wouldn't know I had diabetes.

John

"ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
news:g11bvl$joa$1@aioe.org...
> Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Tiger_Lily" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:69gtp6F336s1dU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:g0uhhs$ajd$1@aioe.org...
>>>>> Well, my A1c was up to 6.1 ths time !!
>>>>>
>>>>> That is because I have taken NO Insulin for over 2 months
>>>>>
>>>>> I was getting very brittle, and having lots of hypos, so I stopped
>>>>> completely. It takes me about 3 hours to completely recover after
>>>>> meals, but, if I take some Novolog to drop my 2 hr, I go hypo at about
>>>>> 3 hours and need to take food again
>>>>>
>>>>> 2 years ago I was taking about 400 units a day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I am completely off of Insulin, and have lost over 80 lbs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hooray for Byetta
>>>>>
>>>> Am I wrong, or does this demonstrate something I've suspected for some
>>>> time; that is, perhaps some doctors should reevaluate the use of
>>>> insulin as - I don't know; the word "crutch" comes to mind, and start
>>>> thinking more along the lines of oral meds, proper diet and exercise?
>>>> Just a suspicion, of course.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>> actually 'current' thought is to use insulin SOONER rather than later
>>> with a type 2 diabetic
>>>
>>> of course, Byetta is a NEW med, and it has obvious advantages for a type
>>> 2 who needs to lose weight, along with the good bg control it allows
>>>
>>> --
>>> kate
>>>
>> Please keep in mind, I honestly don't know what I'm talking about, here;
>> just some niggling little feeling that, initially, exhausting every "most
>> natural" course - as close to "med-less" as possible (and proceeding up
>> the ladder of treatment from there) - seems the most logical path.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
> You are not niggling, you are an active danger to yourself and others
> Try some "natural" cure - like Cyanide, or Deadly Nightshade, OR...
>
> "Natural" is a code word for " I am a fraud, and want to sell you
> something which never worked instead of real medicine"

"ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
news:g11bvl$joa$1@aioe.org...
> Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>>>
>> Please keep in mind, I honestly don't know what I'm talking about, here;
>> just some niggling little feeling that, initially, exhausting every "most
>> natural" course - as close to "med-less" as possible (and proceeding up
>> the ladder of treatment from there) - seems the most logical path.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
> You are not niggling, you are an active danger to yourself and others
> Try some "natural" cure - like Cyanide, or Deadly Nightshade, OR...
>
> "Natural" is a code word for " I am a fraud, and want to sell you
> something which never worked instead of real medicine"
>
>
I see. As I said, I don't know much about it. What I based my thoughts on is
that every now and then, I hear of someone eating things I would never dream
of eating and taking insulin to stabilize it - or at least that's how it
sounds to me. As you see, I don't understand the use of insulin - but would
like to; that's why I voiced my thoughts. I apologize if my request for
further knowledge on the subject angered you.

John

"Tiger_Lily" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:69hiuvF32h5ovU2@mid.individual.net...
> Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Michelle C" <bookbug1@frys.com> wrote in message
>> news:g0vt9l$9st$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>
>>> "Johnnie McCoy" <johnniemccoy@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:wyHYj.11112$IK5.9090@trnddc04...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Tiger_Lily" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:69gtp6F336s1dU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:g0uhhs$ajd$1@aioe.org...
>>>>>>> Well, my A1c was up to 6.1 ths time !!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is because I have taken NO Insulin for over 2 months
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was getting very brittle, and having lots of hypos, so I stopped
>>>>>>> completely. It takes me about 3 hours to completely recover after
>>>>>>> meals, but, if I take some Novolog to drop my 2 hr, I go hypo at
>>>>>>> about 3 hours and need to take food again
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2 years ago I was taking about 400 units a day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now I am completely off of Insulin, and have lost over 80 lbs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hooray for Byetta
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I wrong, or does this demonstrate something I've suspected for
>>>>>> some time; that is, perhaps some doctors should reevaluate the use of
>>>>>> insulin as - I don't know; the word "crutch" comes to mind, and start
>>>>>> thinking more along the lines of oral meds, proper diet and exercise?
>>>>>> Just a suspicion, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John
>>>>> actually 'current' thought is to use insulin SOONER rather than later
>>>>> with a type 2 diabetic
>>>>>
>>>>> of course, Byetta is a NEW med, and it has obvious advantages for a
>>>>> type 2 who needs to lose weight, along with the good bg control it
>>>>> allows
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> kate
>>>>>
>>>> Please keep in mind, I honestly don't know what I'm talking about,
>>>> here; just some niggling little feeling that, initially, exhausting
>>>> every "most natural" course - as close to "med-less" as possible (and
>>>> proceeding up the ladder of treatment from there) - seems the most
>>>> logical path.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>
>>> Hi John,
>>>
>>> I think the primary issue is to maintain normalized BGs. Since a lot of
>>> patients are leery of using insulin, despite the fact they don't have
>>> good control, they're walking around with out of control BGs, when
>>> proper use of insulin would ameliorate the problem. However, if normal
>>> BGs can be achieved through other means, then insulin isn't necessary.
>>> (However, I'll admit to being leery of a lot of the brand new oral
>>> diabetic meds, since a few of the newer ones have bad side effects. I'd
>>> use insulin first.)
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Michelle C., T2
>>>
>> What I'm thinking about are those who jump on insulin because they don't
>> want to be bothered with d&e - patients and doctors. Do you think that
>> happens?
>>
>> John
> nope, i don't think that happens
>
> right now, what i commonly hear is the Dr talking about D&E and 'if you
> don't comply, you will end up on insulin' with insulin being a 'threat'
>
> a LOT of type 2's will radically improve their fasting levels (assuming
> that's the one reading they have troubles with) simply by adding either
> levemir or lantus before bedtime
>
> of course, just my 2 cents
>
> --
> kate
>
Actually, that is the only level I have trouble with. So, it sounds like it
might be worthwhile for me to discuss one of those before bedtime with my
doc?

John

ted rosenberg <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote:
> bj wrote:

>> Um, Ted, d&e are "natural" & there are plenty of folk here who take that
>> tack to the max they can before even thinking about any meds. I didn't go
>> the max d&e but I did try it for several years. My results were fine, but my
>> lifestyle & routine got too burdensome or something, so I asked for some
>> meds to help with the ppbg problem.
>> bj
>>
> Two things,
> 1)
> You should not try D&R because it is "natural" You should try it only if
> it is effective! - "natural" is only used by frauds or dupes.
> 2) Current theory is against D&E unless you are under 110 . Theory may
> change again next week, but, at least currently, they are recognizing
> that D&E is not a good idea in most people

But what is the theory behind that idea? My doc for example told me
that the reason they they don't recommend d&e is because research
shows that very few people stick to it. It's ineffective as a therapy
because of general non-compliance, not because it doesn't work when
actually practised. Which is an important difference if you happen to
be one of the few who who actually *can* stick to a d&e regime.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Johnnie McCoy <johnniemccoy@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:


: "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
: news:g11bvl$joa$1@aioe.org...
: > Johnnie McCoy wrote:
: >>>
: >> Please keep in mind, I honestly don't know what I'm talking about, here;
: >> just some niggling little feeling that, initially, exhausting every "most
: >> natural" course - as close to "med-less" as possible (and proceeding up
: >> the ladder of treatment from there) - seems the most logical path.
: >>
: >> John
: >>
: >>
: > You are not niggling, you are an active danger to yourself and others
: > Try some "natural" cure - like Cyanide, or Deadly Nightshade, OR...
: >
: > "Natural" is a code word for " I am a fraud, and want to sell you
: > something which never worked instead of real medicine"
: >
: >
: I see. As I said, I don't know much about it. What I based my thoughts on is
: that every now and then, I hear of someone eating things I would never dream
: of eating and taking insulin to stabilize it - or at least that's how it
: sounds to me. As you see, I don't understand the use of insulin - but would
: like to; that's why I voiced my thoughts. I apologize if my request for
: further knowledge on the subject angered you.

: John

Doing that kind of thing, eating high carb and then adding a corrective
insulin dose, particularly for type 2's is a good recipe for gaining
weight. Somehow, you really can't get away with it:-)

Wendy

On Wed, 21 May 2008 23:09:39 -0400, ted rosenberg
<tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote:

>Michelle C wrote:<snip>
>> Hi Kate,
>>
>> Yeah, insulin should not be used as a threat, like "you've been a bad boy
>> and here's your punishment". However, it seems I've heard of a number of
>> people who are put on oral meds, like metformin and given no instruction
>> about d & e. For example, I had dinner with my grandparents and a married
>> couple with whom they've been long time friends. The man is diabetic. When
>> dinner was finished, desert was offered. I said, I don't eat desert because
>> I manage my diabetes with diet. The man looked at me like he had absolutely
>> no clue what I was talking about and commenced to eating his pie. The thing
>> of it is, I really don't think he had a clue--not that he was in denial. I
>> think the doctor gave him a pill, said "take this" and that was the end of
>> it.
>>
>> Hopefully, before one gets to insulin there is some effort to educate the
>> patient about d & e. But I bet if my grandparents' friend gets to the point
>> he needs insulin, his doctor will put him on it, and tell him to "take this
>> shot".
>>
>
>So what ? this guy did not WANT to know - I have known people like him
>I had a friend (now deceased) who, when we went out to dinner, had a
>huge plate of pasta, a basket of garlic bread, a bowl of soup, BUT,
>since he was diabetic, a HUGE apple pastry which was "no sugar added ".
>This was an otherwise intelligent man, who'I miss, but he would NOT test
>properly, look at his blood tests, or try to moderate his eating habits.

Was he a dietician? <G>

"ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
news:g12o5j$okq$1@aioe.org...
> Michelle C wrote:<snip>
>> Hi Kate,
>>
>> Yeah, insulin should not be used as a threat, like "you've been a bad boy
>> and here's your punishment". However, it seems I've heard of a number of
>> people who are put on oral meds, like metformin and given no instruction
>> about d & e. For example, I had dinner with my grandparents and a
>> married couple with whom they've been long time friends. The man is
>> diabetic. When dinner was finished, desert was offered. I said, I don't
>> eat desert because I manage my diabetes with diet. The man looked at me
>> like he had absolutely no clue what I was talking about and commenced to
>> eating his pie. The thing of it is, I really don't think he had a
>> clue--not that he was in denial. I think the doctor gave him a pill,
>> said "take this" and that was the end of it.
>>
>> Hopefully, before one gets to insulin there is some effort to educate the
>> patient about d & e. But I bet if my grandparents' friend gets to the
>> point he needs insulin, his doctor will put him on it, and tell him to
>> "take this shot".
>>
>
> So what ? this guy did not WANT to know - I have known people like him
> I had a friend (now deceased) who, when we went out to dinner, had a huge
> plate of pasta, a basket of garlic bread, a bowl of soup, BUT, since he
> was diabetic, a HUGE apple pastry which was "no sugar added ". This was
> an otherwise intelligent man, who'I miss, but he would NOT test properly,
> look at his blood tests, or try to moderate his eating habits.

I get your point, Ted. However, some people are just uninformed. I don't
think this man's doctor even told him about getting a glucometer and
testing. Unfortunately, a lot of people trust their doctors and don't do
independent research.
--
Best regards,
Michelle C., T2
diet & exercise
BMI 21.5

"Trinkwasser" <spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:5fdb34dkj309ckb69r7k39371ujk6olb48@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 21 May 2008 23:09:39 -0400, ted rosenberg
> <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote:
>
>>Michelle C wrote:<snip>
>>> Hi Kate,
>>>
>>> Yeah, insulin should not be used as a threat, like "you've been a bad
>>> boy
>>> and here's your punishment". However, it seems I've heard of a number
>>> of
>>> people who are put on oral meds, like metformin and given no instruction
>>> about d & e. For example, I had dinner with my grandparents and a
>>> married
>>> couple with whom they've been long time friends. The man is diabetic.
>>> When
>>> dinner was finished, desert was offered. I said, I don't eat desert
>>> because
>>> I manage my diabetes with diet. The man looked at me like he had
>>> absolutely
>>> no clue what I was talking about and commenced to eating his pie. The
>>> thing
>>> of it is, I really don't think he had a clue--not that he was in denial.
>>> I
>>> think the doctor gave him a pill, said "take this" and that was the end
>>> of
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Hopefully, before one gets to insulin there is some effort to educate
>>> the
>>> patient about d & e. But I bet if my grandparents' friend gets to the
>>> point
>>> he needs insulin, his doctor will put him on it, and tell him to "take
>>> this
>>> shot".
>>>
>>
>>So what ? this guy did not WANT to know - I have known people like him
>>I had a friend (now deceased) who, when we went out to dinner, had a
>>huge plate of pasta, a basket of garlic bread, a bowl of soup, BUT,
>>since he was diabetic, a HUGE apple pastry which was "no sugar added ".
>>This was an otherwise intelligent man, who'I miss, but he would NOT test
>>properly, look at his blood tests, or try to moderate his eating habits.
>
> Was he a dietician? <G>

Good one. ;-)
--
Best regards,
Michelle C., T2
diet & exercise
BMI 21.5

"Tiger_Lily" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:69k6qaF33beakU1@mid.individual.net...
> Michelle C wrote:
>
>> Hi Kate,
>>
>> Yeah, insulin should not be used as a threat, like "you've been a bad boy
>> and here's your punishment". However, it seems I've heard of a number of
>> people who are put on oral meds, like metformin and given no instruction
>> about d & e. For example, I had dinner with my grandparents and a
>> married couple with whom they've been long time friends. The man is
>> diabetic. When dinner was finished, desert was offered. I said, I don't
>> eat desert because I manage my diabetes with diet. The man looked at me
>> like he had absolutely no clue what I was talking about and commenced to
>> eating his pie. The thing of it is, I really don't think he had a
>> clue--not that he was in denial. I think the doctor gave him a pill,
>> said "take this" and that was the end of it.
>>
>> Hopefully, before one gets to insulin there is some effort to educate the
>> patient about d & e. But I bet if my grandparents' friend gets to the
>> point he needs insulin, his doctor will put him on it, and tell him to
>> "take this shot".
>
> oh, i totally believe what you have written here
>
> my neighbour was told 'take this pill twice a day, keep on your diet, and
> come back in a month'
>
> that was ? 18 months ago now, and this Dr is HAPPY with a fasting bg level
> of 15 or lower!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> he'll probably never put my neighbour on insulin (because my neighbour
> won't live that long )
>
> --
> kate
> type 1 since 1987
> www.diabetic-talk.org
> http://www.diabetes-support.org.uk/n...diagnosed.html

Exactly! And your neighbor is probably one of those who trusts his/her
doctor and will never think to do independent research.
--
Best regards,
Michelle C., T2
diet & exercise
BMI 21.5

"Johnnie McCoy" <johnniemccoy@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d47Zj.31674$%g.11683@trnddc08...
>
>
> "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
> news:g12o5j$okq$1@aioe.org...
>> Michelle C wrote:<snip>
>>> Hi Kate,
>>>
>>> Yeah, insulin should not be used as a threat, like "you've been a bad
>>> boy and here's your punishment". However, it seems I've heard of a
>>> number of people who are put on oral meds, like metformin and given no
>>> instruction about d & e. For example, I had dinner with my grandparents
>>> and a married couple with whom they've been long time friends. The man
>>> is diabetic. When dinner was finished, desert was offered. I said, I
>>> don't eat desert because I manage my diabetes with diet. The man looked
>>> at me like he had absolutely no clue what I was talking about and
>>> commenced to eating his pie. The thing of it is, I really don't think
>>> he had a clue--not that he was in denial. I think the doctor gave him a
>>> pill, said "take this" and that was the end of it.
>>>
>>> Hopefully, before one gets to insulin there is some effort to educate
>>> the patient about d & e. But I bet if my grandparents' friend gets to
>>> the point he needs insulin, his doctor will put him on it, and tell him
>>> to "take this shot".
>>>
>>
>> So what ? this guy did not WANT to know - I have known people like him
>> I had a friend (now deceased) who, when we went out to dinner, had a huge
>> plate of pasta, a basket of garlic bread, a bowl of soup, BUT, since he
>> was diabetic, a HUGE apple pastry which was "no sugar added ". This was
>> an otherwise intelligent man, who'I miss, but he would NOT test properly,
>> look at his blood tests, or try to moderate his eating habits.
>>
>>
> I think the problem is, it's hard to deny yourself eating pleasure when
> nothing obvious happens if you don't. For example, if I didn't test, I
> wouldn't know I had diabetes.
>
> John
Yeah, I think for some people complications in the future are too esoteric
compared to instant gratification and no immediate punishment.
--
Best regards,
Michelle C., T2
diet & exercise
BMI 21.5

Johnnie McCoy wrote:
> <snip>
>>>
>> You are not niggling, you are an active danger to yourself and others
>> Try some "natural" cure - like Cyanide, or Deadly Nightshade, OR...
>>
>> "Natural" is a code word for " I am a fraud, and want to sell you
>> something which never worked instead of real medicine"
>>
>>
> I see. As I said, I don't know much about it. What I based my thoughts
> on is that every now and then, I hear of someone eating things I would
> never dream of eating and taking insulin to stabilize it - or at least
> that's how it sounds to me. As you see, I don't understand the use of
> insulin - but would like to; that's why I voiced my thoughts. I
> apologize if my request for further knowledge on the subject angered you.
>
> John

Latest news says that T2's should go on Insulin FIRST. After they get
full BG control they often go into remission, and can drop back to D and E

Chris Malcolm wrote:
> ted rosenberg <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote:
>
>> bj wrote:
>>
>
>
>>> Um, Ted, d&e are "natural" & there are plenty of folk here who take that
>>> tack to the max they can before even thinking about any meds. I didn't go
>>> the max d&e but I did try it for several years. My results were fine, but my
>>> lifestyle & routine got too burdensome or something, so I asked for some
>>> meds to help with the ppbg problem.
>>> bj
>>>
>>>
>> Two things,
>> 1)
>> You should not try D&R because it is "natural" You should try it only if
>> it is effective! - "natural" is only used by frauds or dupes.
>> 2) Current theory is against D&E unless you are under 110 . Theory may
>> change again next week, but, at least currently, they are recognizing
>> that D&E is not a good idea in most people
>>
>
> But what is the theory behind that idea? My doc for example told me
> that the reason they they don't recommend d&e is because research
> shows that very few people stick to it. It's ineffective as a therapy
> because of general non-compliance, not because it doesn't work when
> actually practised. Which is an important difference if you happen to
> be one of the few who who actually *can* stick to a d&e regime.
>
>
The news has changed again
it is now recommended that new diabetics go on Insulin IMMEDIATELY.
After they are full under control, then they can start D & E and may go
into remission and can stop the Insulin, all before doing much damage to
our bodies

Michelle C wrote:<snip>
>>> Hopefully, before one gets to insulin there is some effort to educate the
>>> patient about d & e. But I bet if my grandparents' friend gets to the
>>> point he needs insulin, his doctor will put him on it, and tell him to
>>> "take this shot".
>>>
>>>
>> So what ? this guy did not WANT to know - I have known people like him
>> I had a friend (now deceased) who, when we went out to dinner, had a huge
>> plate of pasta, a basket of garlic bread, a bowl of soup, BUT, since he
>> was diabetic, a HUGE apple pastry which was "no sugar added ". This was
>> an otherwise intelligent man, who'I miss, but he would NOT test properly,
>> look at his blood tests, or try to moderate his eating habits.
>>
>
> I get your point, Ted. However, some people are just uninformed. I don't
> think this man's doctor even told him about getting a glucometer and
> testing. Unfortunately, a lot of people trust their doctors and don't do
> independent research.
>

There ARE a lot of bad doctors out there, and many of us are here
because we got bat medical care and recognized that we would have to do
for ourselves,. Part of the problem is the refusal to recognize
reality, and part of the problem is doctors who are too controlling and
do not involve the patient.

There is NOTHING that you can do for some people, and,likewise, there
are physicians who are an active menace

"ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
news:g153u0$8vt$3@aioe.org...
> Michelle C wrote:<snip>
>>>> Hopefully, before one gets to insulin there is some effort to educate
>>>> the patient about d & e. But I bet if my grandparents' friend gets to
>>>> the point he needs insulin, his doctor will put him on it, and tell him
>>>> to "take this shot".
>>>>
>>>>
>>> So what ? this guy did not WANT to know - I have known people like him
>>> I had a friend (now deceased) who, when we went out to dinner, had a
>>> huge plate of pasta, a basket of garlic bread, a bowl of soup, BUT,
>>> since he was diabetic, a HUGE apple pastry which was "no sugar added ".
>>> This was an otherwise intelligent man, who'I miss, but he would NOT test
>>> properly, look at his blood tests, or try to moderate his eating habits.
>>>
>>
>> I get your point, Ted. However, some people are just uninformed. I
>> don't think this man's doctor even told him about getting a glucometer
>> and testing. Unfortunately, a lot of people trust their doctors and
>> don't do independent research.
>>
>
> There ARE a lot of bad doctors out there, and many of us are here because
> we got bat medical care and recognized that we would have to do for
> ourselves,. Part of the problem is the refusal to recognize reality, and
> part of the problem is doctors who are too controlling and do not involve
> the patient.
>
> There is NOTHING that you can do for some people, and,likewise, there are
> physicians who are an active menace

Agreed!
--
Best regards,
Michelle C., T2
diet & exercise
BMI 21.5

Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>
>
> "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
> news:g11bvl$joa$1@aioe.org...
>> Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>>>>
>>> Please keep in mind, I honestly don't know what I'm talking about,
>>> here; just some niggling little feeling that, initially, exhausting
>>> every "most natural" course - as close to "med-less" as possible (and
>>> proceeding up the ladder of treatment from there) - seems the most
>>> logical path.
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>> You are not niggling, you are an active danger to yourself and others
>> Try some "natural" cure - like Cyanide, or Deadly Nightshade, OR...
>>
>> "Natural" is a code word for " I am a fraud, and want to sell you
>> something which never worked instead of real medicine"
>>
>>
> I see. As I said, I don't know much about it. What I based my thoughts
> on is that every now and then, I hear of someone eating things I would
> never dream of eating and taking insulin to stabilize it - or at least
> that's how it sounds to me. As you see, I don't understand the use of
> insulin - but would like to; that's why I voiced my thoughts. I
> apologize if my request for further knowledge on the subject angered you.
>
> John
oh John

i believe the people that you have heard 'shoot enough insulin to eat
something ridculous' are type 1 diabetics

a type 1 just has to skip their shots for a day, and they will lose any
weight they gained the day before (one of the former posters here would
actually do that........... she never posted that she DID that though!)

i was talking to my GP today, and the top Endo in town gave a seminar,
and in that seminar he taught about using metformin as a first line of
defense, adding avandia/actos if needed, then moving the patient to
basal insulin, then moving the patient to basal/bolus insulin

my GP is now changing all his glipizide patients over to insulin (and
NOT NPH!)

--
kate
type 1 since 1987
www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.diabetes-support.org.uk/n...diagnosed.html

Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>
>
> "Tiger_Lily" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:69hiuvF32h5ovU2@mid.individual.net...
>> Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Michelle C" <bookbug1@frys.com> wrote in message
>>> news:g0vt9l$9st$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>>>
>>>> "Johnnie McCoy" <johnniemccoy@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:wyHYj.11112$IK5.9090@trnddc04...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Tiger_Lily" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:69gtp6F336s1dU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> Johnnie McCoy wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenberg@iname.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:g0uhhs$ajd$1@aioe.org...
>>>>>>>> Well, my A1c was up to 6.1 ths time !!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is because I have taken NO Insulin for over 2 months
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was getting very brittle, and having lots of hypos, so I
>>>>>>>> stopped completely. It takes me about 3 hours to completely
>>>>>>>> recover after meals, but, if I take some Novolog to drop my 2
>>>>>>>> hr, I go hypo at about 3 hours and need to take food again
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2 years ago I was taking about 400 units a day.
>>>>>>&