Slowing Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy / Low-Iron-Diet

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...full/52/5/1204

A Low-Iron-Available, Polyphenol-Enriched, Carbohydrate-Restricted Diet
to Slow Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy

<<snip>>
nearly doubled renal and overall survival rates
<<snip>>


Who loves ya.
Tom


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ironjustice@aol.com wrote:

> http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...full/52/5/1204
>
> A Low-Iron-Available, Polyphenol-Enriched, Carbohydrate-Restricted
> Diet to Slow Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy

That article is dated 2003. Up-to-date studies show, that prevention of
functional anaemia, which also includes substitution of renal caused
erythropoietin deficiency decreases the progression of diabetic nephropathy.


Anja

Anja Länge wrote:
> ironjustice@aol.com wrote:
>
> > http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org...full/52/5/1204
> >
> > A Low-Iron-Available, Polyphenol-Enriched, Carbohydrate-Restricted
> > Diet to Slow Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy
>
> That article is dated 2003. Up-to-date studies show, that prevention of
> functional anaemia, which also includes substitution of renal caused
> erythropoietin deficiency decreases the progression of diabetic nephropathy.
>
>
> Anja

The .. way .. you 'stated' .. that .. I will take it you are somehow of
the belief the first article .. mentions .. anemia ..

I don't see anything about anemia .. in the .. article ..

Point it out ..

And .. you are correct in that .. 'treating' .. anemia .. improves ..
recovery .. BUT .. as pointed out .. and cites .. provided upon request
... that .. VITAMIN C .. without iron supplementation .. corrects anemia
...

Therefore allowing the body to utilize this iron .. SHOWN .. to BE ..
present ..

So 'anemia' .. is NOT .. iron 'deficiency' .. but failure to utilize
iron .. PRESENT ..


Who loves ya.
Tom


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DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
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ironjustice@aol.com wrote:

> The .. way .. you 'stated' .. that .. I will take it you are
> somehow of the belief the first article .. mentions .. anemia ..

It stated the usefulness if low-iron diet in all stages of diabetic
nephropathy.

> I don't see anything about anemia .. in the .. article ..

Renal anaemia is unavoidable as soon as the erypothropoietin production
falls due to renal function loss. There is no need to mention it. It is
inevitable.

> And .. you are correct in that .. 'treating' .. anemia .. improves
> .. recovery .. BUT .. as pointed out .. and cites .. provided upon
> request .. that .. VITAMIN C .. without iron supplementation ..
> corrects anemia ..

Erythropoietin is essentiell for erythropoiesis. The amount of its
production in the liver is not enough to prevent anaemia if the renal
function decreases. The need for iron increases (=relative deficiency). The
anaemia can be corrected by increasing the erythopoiesis. You can do that at
mild stages with iron supplemention. Progressed stages of erythropoietin
defiency can't be corrected by giving other things than erypo. Like there is
no way to push insulin production in T1 diabetics with no remaining beta
cell activity.

> Therefore allowing the body to utilize this iron .. SHOWN .. to BE
> .. present ..

The article speaks of effects of iron on renal tissue and function
deterioration and therefore recommends low-iron-diet.

> So 'anemia' .. is NOT .. iron 'deficiency' .. but failure to utilize
> iron .. PRESENT ..

The need for iron is increased and can't be supplied with normal nutrition.
So you do supplementation (till another stage is reached, where that won't
be enough any longer). A low-iron-diet is not what I'd call iron
supplementation ;-)

The article cites sources from 1989 and 1992 on the effects of iron
deficiency on renal tissue and function and therefore recommends
low-iron-diet.
The effects of relative iron deficiency (anaemia), which lead to
supplementation, is known.
The study achieves the low-iron-diet by the choice of proteins.
The effect of the choice of proteins on proteinuria and HLA induced
inflammation in the nephron is proven and evidence-based.
The study design gives no clue on the differentiation of the effects of
low-iron-diet and protein choice.
So necessary differentiations in the data ascertainment are missing and
masking the causes of the observations (my humble opinion).


It's getting late and I should've been asleep a while ago. If the above
sounds confusing, please ask, I'll try to clarify what I meant to say ;-)

Anja

>>Anja Länge wrote:
The need for iron is increased and can't be supplied with normal
nutrition.
So you do supplementation (till another stage is reached, where that
won't
be enough any longer). A low-iron-diet is not what I'd call iron
supplementation ;-) <<

I must have missed .. alot ..

The article stated .. "low iron diet" ..

It did NOT .. mention .. iron **supplementation** .

Why .. ?

Because like I said .. no iron NEEDED .. because iron ALREADY ..
present ..

You somehow .. 'bring in' .. iron supplementation .. WHEN .. the
article does NOT even MENTION iron supplementation .. and BY ..
'mentioning' .. iron supplementation .. you bring INTO .. 'this' ..
debate .. iron supplementation .. WHEN the whole PURPOSE .. of .. the
article is SPECIFICALLY to mention .. low iron diet ..

NOT .. 'iron supplementation' ..

Low iron diet is required in those people WITH iron overload .. and in
this article and as in other articles supplied the researchers have
agreed the iron 'on board. these patients is high enough to warrant a
... low iron diet ..

NOT .. 'iron supplementation'

Who loves ya.
Tom


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ironjustice@aol.com wrote:

> The article stated .. "low iron diet" ..
>
> It did NOT .. mention .. iron **supplementation** .
>
> Why .. ?
>
> Because like I said .. no iron NEEDED .. because iron ALREADY ..
> present ..

The study speaks of negative effects of iron on renal tissue and function
and to be an "important factor in the progression of [...] nephropathy" and
therefore recommends the "reduction of body iron" which they advice to be
"induced by use of a low-iron available diet" or the use of "iron absorption
inhibitors".

See the difference?


Anja

Anja Länge wrote:
> ironjustice@aol.com wrote:
>
> > The article stated .. "low iron diet" ..
> >
> > It did NOT .. mention .. iron **supplementation** .
> >
> > Why .. ?
> >
> > Because like I said .. no iron NEEDED .. because iron ALREADY ..
> > present ..
>
> The study speaks of negative effects of iron on renal tissue and function
> and to be an "important factor in the progression of [...] nephropathy" and
> therefore recommends the "reduction of body iron" which they advice to be
> "induced by use of a low-iron available diet" or the use of "iron absorption
> inhibitors".
>
> See the difference?
>
>
> Anja

No .. I don't 'see' a .. difference ..

The article states that iron is a problem with renal failure ..

They used a low iron diet to reduce this problem ..

That means the .. problem .. INCLUDED .. high iron ..

You .. for some reason .. seem to be attempting to .. detract .. FROM
... the FACT .. the low iron diet .. was INCLUDED .. because the iron
was CONTRIBUTING to the damage ..

You seem to be attempting to have people believe iron ..
supplementation .. is somehow involved.

Iron supplementation .. HAS .. been shown to be a problem .. BUT .. in
this SPECIFIC study .. iron supplementation is not mentioned ..

YOU somehow think iron supplementation is PERTINENT .. to .. THIS ..
study but in fact it is not ..

IRON .. is .. iron SUPPLEMENTATION is .. NOT ..

The iron ALREADY present .. is damaging the tissue ..

Where the iron is coming .. from .. is NOT .. mentioned ..

BUT since it is .. diabetes .. and since all diabetics have free
floating iron in their bodies and since ALL diabetics have NOT ..
supplemented iron .. then one can .. dedeuce .. the iron is coming from
some OTHER .. 'source' .. THAN your .. iron supplementation ..

Simply because .. iron supplementation is not mentioned AND the FACT it
is .. diabetes ..

Which .. has been plainly shown to have free .. floating .. iron ..

Logic ..

So your .. assumption .. OF .. iron supplementation BEING .. involved
... is .. unproven .. but iron .. IS .. and WAS .. as evidenced ..
tested ..

Outcome .. ?

"Slower Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy"

Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

ironjustice@aol.com wrote:

> > The study speaks of negative effects of iron on renal tissue and
> > function and to be an "important factor in the progression of
> > [...] nephropathy" and therefore recommends the "reduction of
> > body iron" which they advice to be "induced by use of a low-iron
> > available diet" or the use of "iron absorption inhibitors".

> That means the .. problem .. INCLUDED .. high iron ..

What are you talking about??
Serum ferritin was normal at study begin, there was no "high iron".

Also [cite]"iron deficiency [..] prevented renal histological and functional
deterioration" [/]

No "high iron" but the statement that iron has to be lower than normal
(cite: "deficiency").

> You .. for some reason .. seem to be attempting to .. detract ..

No, I read the article. And gave cites for my statements from that article.

> FROM .. the FACT .. the low iron diet .. was INCLUDED .. because
> the iron was CONTRIBUTING to the damage ..

> You seem to be attempting to have people believe iron ..
> supplementation .. is somehow involved.

Don't misinterpret my words please. Thanks.

> Iron supplementation .. HAS .. been shown to be a problem .. BUT ..
> in this SPECIFIC study .. iron supplementation is not mentioned ..

I did not say it was.
I did say that this study recommends a therapy by using insufficient data,
while this recommended therapy is the exact opposite of known helping
therapy and I gave medical background facts for that.

> YOU somehow think iron supplementation is PERTINENT .. to .. THIS ..
> study but in fact it is not ..

Could you explain the medical background for this statement?

> BUT since it is .. diabetes .. and since all diabetics have free
> floating iron in their bodies and since ALL diabetics have NOT ..
> supplemented iron .. then one can .. dedeuce .. the iron is coming
> from some OTHER .. 'source' .. THAN your .. iron supplementation ..
>
> Simply because .. iron supplementation is not mentioned AND the
> FACT it is .. diabetes ..

You are mixing correlation and causality.
Just because of the decreasing number of storks in north europe correlates
with the decreasing birthrate it doesn't mean that storks deliver babies.

> Outcome .. ?
>
> "Slower Progression of Diabetic Nephropathy"

The data ascertainment does not pay attention to the used kind of proteins.
Again: Correlation and causality are not the same. That kind of study design
is insufficient.


Anja

>>Anja Länge wrote:
Serum ferritin was normal at study begin, there was no "high iron". <<

The iron .. as shown BEFORE .. when LOWERED leads to significant
results .. giving credence to the iron ferritin 'normal' .. marker ..
to be set .. too HIGH .. therefore ruling IN .. 'normal' when in FACT
... it is .. high .. as evidenced by .. recovery BY lowering 'normal' to
... 'deficiency' .. or what .. they .. say / agree .. 'iron deficiency'
to BE ..

>>Also [cite]"iron deficiency [..] prevented renal histological and functional
deterioration" [/] <<

Yes .. what they consider .. abnormal / deficiency is NOT .. evidence
wise .. evidenced BY .. "iron deficiency [..] prevented renal
histological and functional
deterioration"


>>No "high iron" but the statement that iron has to be lower than normal
(cite: "deficiency"). <<

What .. they .. 'consider to BE' .. normal is in FACT .. evidenced to
BE .. high .. as per recovery ..

>>I did say that this study recommends a therapy by using insufficient
data, <<

Functional recovery .. extended recovery .. evidence based .. RECOVERY
... is .. the 'data' ..

>>The data ascertainment does not pay attention to the used kind of proteins.
Again: Correlation and causality are not the same. That kind of study
design
is insufficient. <<

Well if you know your stuff .. low iron diet would HAVE to be .. sans
... meat .. because .. meat is NOT .. 'low iron' ..

But you never know with these researchers .. WHAT .. they fed them ..


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
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Man Is A Herbivore!
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DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
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ironjustice@aol.com wrote:

> recovery BY lowering 'normal' to .. 'deficiency'

> What .. they .. 'consider to BE' .. normal is in FACT .. evidenced
> to BE .. high .. as per recovery ..

> evidence based .. RECOVERY .. is .. the 'data' ..

> Well if you know your stuff .. low iron diet would HAVE to be ..
> sans .. meat .. because .. meat is NOT .. 'low iron' ..

"substitution of iron-enriched red meats (beef and pork) with iron-poor (28)
white meats (poultry and fish"...
You know that? It's from the article you posted and we are talking about.


Again: There was no differentiation between effects of iron intake and kind
of protein intake. So nobody can tell from this study design, what caused
the slowed progression.
If I take two groups of T1 diabetics, give one group no insulin and the
other one insulin while watching StarTrek... would you consider StarTrek to
be the glucose lowering effector? That could also be commented wih your
"recovery is the data".
I think I might have mentioned it before: Correlation is no causality.

By the way: You snipped my question for medical background information on
one of your statements.


Anja

>>Anja Länge wrote:
By the way: You snipped my question for medical background information
on
one of your statements.<<

>>> YOU somehow think iron supplementation is PERTINENT .. to .. THIS ..
study but in fact it is not .. <<<


>>Could you explain the medical background for this statement? <<

As to .. medical background FOR this statement ..?

No 'medical background' .. needed ..

I read the article .. it didn't 'mention' .. iron supplementation ..

Then seeing that I missed the fish and poultry ..

I used my search on my browser ..

I opened the article and did a search with 'suppl' .. and .. nothing
came up ..

No mention .. OF .. iron supplementation ..

Therefore I will assume with provided data .. THAT .. iron
supplementation is NOT .. involved ..


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

ironjustice@aol.com wrote:

> As to .. medical background FOR this statement ..?
>
> No 'medical background' .. needed ..
>
> I read the article .. it didn't 'mention' .. iron supplementation ..
> Then seeing that I missed the fish and poultry ..
>
> I used my search on my browser ..
>
> I opened the article and did a search with 'suppl' .. and .. nothing
> came up ..
>
> No mention .. OF .. iron supplementation ..

Hmm... could you tell me please, if you just don't see the point or ignoring
it?
If I talk about a car and don't mention it having a motor it doesn't mean,
it has no motor.

How would you describe your knowledge of the pathophysiology and
pathobiochemistry of diabetic nephropathy?
Hint: A textssearch won't tell you the content... just the used words.

> Therefore I will assume with provided data .. THAT .. iron
> supplementation is NOT .. involved ..

Respect! You made a correct statement about the words used in the article.
Next steps would be understanding it....
....and bringing it into context with known facts on pathologic aspects of
the subject.


Anja

>>Anja Länge wrote:
Respect! You made a correct statement about the words used in the
article.
Next steps would be understanding it....
....and bringing it into context with known facts on pathologic aspects
of
the subject<<

I .. thought .. I saw a .. pattern IN what you were saying ... doing.

You were / are attempting to belittle the .. study ..

By .. ? .. throwing in .. 'anemia' .. when it was never mentioned ..

Attempting to make people think somehow a low iron diet would .. equate
... WITH .. anemia ..

Then when further pressed you began to state .. supplementation ..
which is never mentioned ..

And .. NOW .. ?

Questioning my .. knowledge of .. said .. article ..

My .. understanding .. of .. said .. article ..

The article says .. low iron diet .. included in the study .. because
the researchers believed it may be .. part of the scenario ..

The group .. showed improvement ..

So .. all .. or part of the .. REGIMEN .. improves the patients ..

YOU .. have a .. 'problem' .. with .. it .. ?

Tell the researchers ..

Don't attempt to belittle .. ME .. or the study ..

The study .. shows improvement .. and low iron diet .. was PART of this
improvement ..

Live with it ..


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

ironjustice@aol.com wrote:

> I .. thought .. I saw a .. pattern

I doubt that.

> By .. ? .. throwing in .. 'anemia' .. when it was never mentioned ..

The trick on effectiv using a study is to have a minimum amount of knowledge
on the subject it talks about.

> Attempting to make people think somehow a low iron diet would ..
> equate .. WITH .. anemia ..

No, I didn't. If you reread my postings you might notice that. I talked
about the pathophysiology of diabetic nephropathy. With that hint you should
be able to find out why I mentioned anaemia, although it is infact not the
subject of the article.

> Then when further pressed you began to state .. supplementation ..
> which is never mentioned ..

Of course it is not. For heavens sake... And I never said it was.

> And .. NOW .. ?
>
> Questioning my .. knowledge of .. said .. article ..

No, not the article. But necessary knowledge about basic pathophysiology.

> My .. understanding .. of .. said .. article ..

I did not ask about your knowledge of the article.
I asked for your knowledge on pathophysiologic and pathobiochemical
background on the subject of diabetic nephropathy. Again: It'd be nice if
you read what I wrote before you start to imply statements I never made. But
I am getting an idea, why you did not answer my question. And somehow I also
get the idea you won't answer it.

> The article says .. low iron diet .. included in the study ..
> because the researchers believed it may be .. part of the scenario

Research is not done by believe. It is done by accuracy.

> The group .. showed improvement ..
>
> So .. all .. or part of the .. REGIMEN .. improves the patients ..

You know the difference between correlation and causality? This study gave
absolutely no evidence that the low iron diet CAUSED the improvement or was
anyhow involved. Remember... correlation? Insulin/StarTrek...
storks/babies...? You seem to lack basic skills of scientific research.

> YOU .. have a .. 'problem' .. with .. it .. ?

It? No. But with people who are unable to work with scientific studies or
understand limitations of study designs, interpretation of the outcome etc
and draw conclusions on insufficient data.

> Tell the researchers ..

Why? Everyone who is able to to scientifically read the study is able to put
it in its right place.

> The study .. shows improvement .. and low iron diet .. was PART of
> this improvement ..
>
> Live with it ..

Learn the difference between correlation and causality. And try to get a
glimpse of accurate scientific research. Seems it would open a totally new
world to you.


Anja

Anja Länge wrote:
> > The study .. shows improvement .. and low iron diet .. was PART of
> > this improvement ..
> >
> > Live with it ..
>
> Learn the difference between correlation and causality. And try to get a
> glimpse of accurate scientific research. Seems it would open a totally new
> world to you.

I told you .. to not attempt to belittle .. ME .. you stupid fkg .. cow
...

The **erythrocytosis** is what CAUSED the .. kidney failure ..
http://tinyurl.com/yclscm

The erythrocytosis found to BE involved in diabetes ..
http://tinyurl.com/yj7sqf

YOU have some .. 'other' .. scenario ..

Who .. fkg .. cares .. WHAT .. you .. 'think' ..

The article states .. "low iron diet test ..Slows Progression of
Diabetic Nephropathy" ..

Low iron diet reduces erythrocytosis .. which has been PROVEN to cause
cyanotic nephropathy .. http://tinyurl.com/yclscm

YOU .. you fkg .. smartass .. explain it .. and while you're at it ..
give me some 'credentials' as to WHY should one listen to YOUR ..
bullsht ..

You have some .. cred .. do ya .. ?

Other than .. " I have diabetes .. so I am smart about it .. including
... all the impacts of diabetes .. such as .. kidney failure , diabetic
blindness , diabetic neuropathy .. " ..

Funny .. being that you are .. SOOOO .. 'up on it' .. how come you
missed all this free floating iron .. ?

Because you a fkg .. genius ..?

Ya .. for sure ..

Blustering .. fool ..


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

This post is sure to inspire people to take you seriously. If they
didn't before, they're sure to really pay any attention to what you have
to say now.

--
Cheri

ironjustice@aol.com wrote in message

I told you .. to not attempt to belittle .. ME .. you stupid fkg .. cow

ironjustice@aol.com wrote:

> I told you .. to not attempt to belittle .. ME .. you stupid fkg ..
> cow ..

Do you have any kind of prove for the statement me being a fkg cow? Or are
you stating without a prove? Seems to be a coomon habit of yours. Do you
wnat to talk about that?

> The **erythrocytosis** is what CAUSED the .. kidney failure ..
> http://tinyurl.com/yclscm

The subject of that is cyanotic nephropathy not diabetic.
Also: "In conclusion, hyperviscosity by polycythemia may be responsible for
the
development of CN."
Primary polycythemia is a myeloproliferative condition and I am sure you
don't want to imply that it is present in each diabetic. Secondary
polycthemia occurs with altitude sickness or as a result of hypoxia and
would lead to increased erythropoiesis. That would contradict your former
statement that there is enough iron. I also doubt you would imply that the
other causes like kidney tumors or cushing syndrom apply to each diabetic
developing diabetic nephropathy.

> The erythrocytosis found to BE involved in diabetes ..
> http://tinyurl.com/yj7sqf

These articles are talking about relationship between insulin
resistence/metabolic syndrom and haematologic aspects which could lead to
cardiovascular problems and variations in haemodynamics. Which would give
the possibility to be an aspect for diabetic nephropathy in T2. T1 in
generell do not have insulin resistence (except sub forms). So they might
contribute in T2, but not T1. MIGHT. Not DO.

> YOU have some .. 'other' .. scenario ..

I have no scenario, I gave facts.

> Who .. fkg .. cares .. WHAT .. you .. 'think' ..

Nobody needs to care about what I think. Everybody just needs to read the
article... correctly.

> The article states .. "low iron diet test ..Slows Progression of
> Diabetic Nephropathy" ..

A statement is no prove. And it gives no prove but a correlation. Did I by
some unfortunate circumstances mention that there is a difference? Hm...
maybe I should sometime.

> Low iron diet reduces erythrocytosis .. which has been PROVEN to
> cause cyanotic nephropathy .. http://tinyurl.com/yclscm

So what? Pathogenesis differs. About the rest: See above.
By the way: Did you ever wonder why it was published in "PEDIATRIC
Nephrology"?

> YOU .. you fkg .. smartass .. explain it .. and while you're at it
> .. give me some 'credentials' as to WHY should one listen to YOUR ..
> bullsht ..

Nobody needs to listen to me. Everybody able to accurately read a study can
see what it proves and what not.

> You have some .. cred .. do ya .. ?
>
> Other than .. " I have diabetes .. so I am smart about it ..
> including .. all the impacts of diabetes .. such as .. kidney
> failure , diabetic blindness , diabetic neuropathy .. " ..

As I said before I was talking about basic aspects of pathophysiology and
pathobiochemistry.
That could give you a clue what my "creds" are.

> Funny .. being that you are .. SOOOO .. 'up on it' .. how come you
> missed all this free floating iron .. ?

Free floating iron?? Are you kidding? Iron in the human body is present as
hemoglobin, myoglobin, ferritin or transferrin.
And you might once again want to take a look at the data used in the study.

> Because you a fkg .. genius ..?
>
> Ya .. for sure ..

You are soooooo sweet. And no, I am not referring to your blood sugar.


Anja

>>Anja Länge wrote:
Primary polycythemia is a myeloproliferative condition and I am sure
you
don't want to imply that it is present in each diabetic.<<

I don't imply .. fkall ..

The medical studies speak for themselves ..

You can't seem to .. understand .. u-n-d-e-r-s-t-an-d .. a simple
medical study.

It says .. dumbed down .. JUST .. for the likes of yourself ..
"increased red blood cell production can be used as a MARKER .. for ..
diabetes .. : ..

Can't get more .. succinct ..

But you .. can't .. seem to understand ?

"Increased
red blood cell count could be considered as a new aspect of the insulin

resistance syndrome that could contribute to the increased risk of
developing cardiovascular problems.

http://tinyurl.com/y7ybxc

And then you go on to attempt to say .. "insulin resistance isn't
related to diabetes" ..

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/59/66846

"Components of insulin resistance syndrome include:

Impaired fasting glucose, impaired glucose tolerance or type 2
diabetes. "

Seems you are .. wrong ..

And .. seeing that your .. 'claim to fame' .. is pathology .. that
would mean .. your 'cred' .. is just like I .. said ..

Bullsht ..

>>Anja Länge wrote:
Which would give
the possibility to be an aspect for diabetic nephropathy in T2. T1 in
generell do not have insulin resistence (except sub forms). So they
might
contribute in T2, but not T1. MIGHT. Not DO<<

Might .. ?

Heh .. heh ..

You take the path of a .. pussy ..

I placed a medical study and you .. NOW .. use the tired method of ..
what .. ?

"MIGHT. Not DO" ..

or .. "Ewww ... ewww .. ewwww .. it says .. MIGHT!!!"

Anyway it is put .. it sounds like a little fkg pussy ..

Two year olds can come up with better arguments ..

You obviously have a hidden agenda ..

What is it .. ?

Comeon .. a little bit of investigation would bring it up ..

What is it .. ?

You a meat eater .. ? .. a BIG meat eater .. ?

A religious .. nutbar .. ?

>Secondary
> polycthemia occurs with altitude sickness or as a result of hypoxia and
> would lead to increased erythropoiesis. That would contradict your former
> statement that there is enough iron.

They're in the mountains .. now .. are .. they ..

You fly around quite a bit ..


>
> I have no scenario, I gave facts.

Actually .. you 'say' sht .. you GIVE .. nothing ..

I placed the article .. you .. 'give' .. ?

Comments ..

>From someone who doesn't even know the .. basics ..

>
> > The article states .. "low iron diet test ..Slows Progression of
> > Diabetic Nephropathy" ..
>
> A statement is no prove. And it gives no prove but a correlation. Did I by
> some unfortunate circumstances mention that there is a difference? Hm...
> maybe I should sometime.

"No prove" ..

Would that be like sorta ... "Ewww .. ewww .. ewww .. no PROVE!!"

"Correlation" ..

Heh .. heh ..

>> Did you ever wonder why it was published in "PEDIATRIC
Nephrology"?<<

Maybe the guy was a pediatrition ..?

>>Anja Länge wrote: Free floating iron?? Are you kidding? Iron in the human body is present as
hemoglobin, myoglobin, ferritin or transferrin..<<

http://tinyurl.com/ya5r7e

RESULTS: NTBI (non-transferrin-bound iron ) was commonly present in
diabetes: 59% in newly diagnosed diabetes and 92% in advanced diabetes

NTBI = free floating iron

You don't even know the .. simple .. aspects of medicine .. YET .. you
attempt to use some sort of .. 'credentials' .. TO .. lend yourself
some .. 'support' .. ?

Seems you should leave your .. cred .. at home .. because you are
casting doubts on the .. USEFULNESS .. of .. YOUR .. 'type' of cred ..
AND everyone .. elses ..

Heh .. heh ..


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk

[quoting repaired9

ironjustice@aol.com wrote:

> Primary polycythemia is a myeloproliferative condition and I am
> sure you don't want to imply that it is present in each diabetic.<<
>
> I don't imply .. fkall ..
>
> The medical studies speak for themselves ..

The study speaks of polycythemia, which is a diagnosable condition.

> You can't seem to .. understand .. u-n-d-e-r-s-t-an-d .. a simple
> medical study.

Exactly what was your involvement in clinical research?

> "Increased red blood cell count could be considered as a new aspect of the
> insulin resistance syndrome that could contribute to the increased risk of
> developing cardiovascular problems.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/y7ybxc
>
> And then you go on to attempt to say .. "insulin resistance isn't
> related to diabetes" ..

You should learn to read more carefully. I said that it is not related to
T1. You do know the difference between T1 and T2?
In the interest of a matter-of-fact discussion I will assume it was just
sloppiness instead of an intentional misdirection of my words.

> And .. seeing that your .. 'claim to fame' .. is pathology .. that
> would mean .. your 'cred' .. is just like I .. said ..
>
> Bullsht ..

I didn't. But you are free to try again.

> I placed a medical study and you .. NOW .. use the tired method of
> ..
> what .. ?
>
> "MIGHT. Not DO" ..
>
> or .. "Ewww ... ewww .. ewwww .. it says .. MIGHT!!!"

It gave no clue that it DOES. So it would be an allegation and
misinterpretation to say so.

> Anyway it is put .. it sounds like a little fkg pussy ..

You also have problems with your hearing?

> Two year olds can come up with better arguments ..

You know two year olds attending med school? Wow, that's imporessing.

> Comeon .. a little bit of investigation would bring it up ..

Have fun.

> You a meat eater .. ? .. a BIG meat eater .. ?

Which reminds me of you calling me a cow... since cows in some cultures are
regarded as holy beings I take it as a compliment.

> A religious .. nutbar .. ?

I don't consider myself to be religious although I find it philosophical
interesting in the context of development of ethics, moral or someone's
self-conception.

> >Secondary
> > polycthemia occurs with altitude sickness or as a result of
> > hypoxia and would lead to increased erythropoiesis. That would
> > contradict your former statement that there is enough iron.
>
> They're in the mountains .. now .. are .. they ..
>
> You fly around quite a bit ..

It was not me who brought up polycythemia.

> Actually .. you 'say' sht .. you GIVE .. nothing ..
>
> I placed the article .. you .. 'give' .. ?

It might help to understand the content of the placed articles instead of
choosing them by the words used in it.

> >> Did you ever wonder why it was published in "PEDIATRIC
> Nephrology"?<<
>
> Maybe the guy was a pediatrition ..?

Do you want to contribute aspects on the epidemiology of cyanotic
nepropathy?

> >>Anja Länge wrote: Free floating iron?? Are you kidding? Iron in
> >>the human body is present as
> hemoglobin, myoglobin, ferritin or transferrin..<<
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ya5r7e
>
> RESULTS: NTBI (non-transferrin-bound iron ) was commonly present in
> diabetes: 59% in newly diagnosed diabetes and 92% in advanced
> diabetes
>
> NTBI = free floating iron

LOL. Non-transferrin-bound. Indeed. Like I said above: Hemoglobin,
myoglobin, ferrin oder transferrin. Eliminate transferrin of that list and
there are hemoglobin, myoglobin and ferritin left.
But that URL to the discussion in May is interesting. You seem to have been
resistent to arguments and learning quite some time. And you really seem to
have an agenda of placing studies by looking at their words instead of the
content.

> You don't even know the .. simple .. aspects of medicine .. YET ..
> you attempt to use some sort of .. 'credentials' .. TO .. lend yourself
> some .. 'support' .. ?

No, I don't need to. I can give facts because of knowledge on what I am
talking about. You give articles you don't understand but which include the
words you searched via google. Lacking arguments you loose your manners
(hmm... that would imply you had some before... discard that).

> Seems you should leave your .. cred .. at home .. because you are
> casting doubts on the .. USEFULNESS .. of .. YOUR .. 'type' of cred
> ..
> AND everyone .. elses ..
>
> Heh .. heh ..

I don't think so. But that most probably won't bother you. But who cares
since you do your best to discredit yourself.


Have a nice day
Anja

>>Anja Länge wrote:

LOL. Non-transferrin-bound. Indeed. Like I said above: Hemoglobin,
myoglobin, ferrin oder transferrin. Eliminate transferrin of that list
and
there are hemoglobin, myoglobin and ferritin left.<<

So what you are saying is .. "I looked DIRECTLY .. at .. the article
you supplied and AGAIN .. hold to my learnin' .. that there is no such
thing as 'free floating iron' .. and this non-existent free .. floating
... iron .. is NOT .. one and the SAME .. NTBI/nontransferrin bound
iron.."

http://tinyurl.com/yb9qkt

IS.. that .. what you are saying .. ? .. or you having a hard time
translating .. ?

Just seeing if I am missing something or you are truly very , very ,
very .. stupid ..

Heh .. heh ..


http://tinyurl.com/ya5r7e



RESULTS: NTBI (non-transferrin-bound iron ) was commonly present in
diabetes: 59% in newly diagnosed diabetes and 92% in advanced
diabetes


NTBI = free floating iron


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk