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  #1  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Peter Bowditch
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Posts: n/a
Default Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

People reckon that diabetes causes depression.

I was just sent down the slope by having to respond in another group
(misc.health.alternative) to someone posting information from an
anti-vaccination liar web site which claims that Type 1 diabetes is
caused by vaccination.

There is no lie too big for these perverts to tell in their insane
campaign against immunisation.

I needed to vent to a sympathetic audience. Sorry. Normal programming
will resume shortly.
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
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  #2  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Ozgirl
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Peter Bowditch wrote:
> People reckon that diabetes causes depression.
>
> I was just sent down the slope by having to respond in

another group
> (misc.health.alternative) to someone posting information

from an
> anti-vaccination liar web site which claims that Type 1

diabetes is
> caused by vaccination.
>
> There is no lie too big for these perverts to tell in

their insane
> campaign against immunisation.
>
> I needed to vent to a sympathetic audience. Sorry. Normal

programming
> will resume shortly.


I'll be your mother Peter It's a shame some of these anti
vaccination people cannot see a real deal epidemic of these
childhood diseases that killed many children (and adults).
Let them see polio at it's worst stage, or whooping cough in
a baby.

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  #3  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Alan S
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 07:16:20 GMT, Peter Bowditch
<myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote:

>People reckon that diabetes causes depression.
>
>I was just sent down the slope by having to respond in another group
>(misc.health.alternative) to someone posting information from an
>anti-vaccination liar web site which claims that Type 1 diabetes is
>caused by vaccination.
>
>There is no lie too big for these perverts to tell in their insane
>campaign against immunisation.
>
>I needed to vent to a sympathetic audience. Sorry. Normal programming
>will resume shortly.


Vent anytime mate.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Planning on the Net
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  #4  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
oldal4865
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child


Peter Bowditch wrote in message ...
>People reckon that diabetes causes depression.
>
>I was just sent down the slope by having to respond in another group
>(misc.health.alternative) to someone posting information from an
>anti-vaccination liar web site which claims that Type 1 diabetes is
>caused by vaccination.
>
>There is no lie too big for these perverts to tell in their insane
>campaign against immunisation.
>
>I needed to vent to a sympathetic audience. Sorry. Normal programming
>will resume shortly.
>--
>Peter Bowditch aa #2243



I have had dealings with a convicted bank robber, a convicted
murderer, and a few people who spent time as involuntary commitments in
Mental Health. One of the commitments is T1 and calls me long distance
when her meds fog her mind so badly that she needs help with her insulin
dosages.

None of them are as weird as some of the folks you deal with.

Mud wrestling with pigs is usually not considered a rational exercise but in
this case, it happens to be a necessary one. Many thanks.

Regards
Old Al




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  #5  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Peter C
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child


"Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
news:deqlk2tiq34f34h4ijv84eucdnk09sjg8i@4ax.com...

"There have been a number of studies which have searched for links between
diabetes and immunisations. The only studies suggesting a possible increase
in risk have come from Dr John B Classen. He found that if the first
vaccination in children is performed after 2 months of age, there is an
increased risk of diabetes. His laboratory study in animals also found that
certain vaccines, if given at birth, actually decrease the risk of diabetes.
This study was based on experiments using anthrax vaccine, which is very
rarely used in children or adults. Dr Classen also compared diabetes rates
with vaccination schedules in different countries, and interpreted his
results as meaning that vaccination causes an increased risk of diabetes.
This has been criticised because the comparison between countries included
vaccines which are no longer used or used rarely, such as smallpox and the
tuberculosis vaccine (BCG). The study also failed to consider many reasons
other than vaccination which could influence rates of diabetes in different
countries. Later, in 2002, Dr Classen suggested that vaccination of Finnish
children with Hib vaccine caused clusters of diabetes 3 years later, and
that his experiments in mice confirmed this association."
http://www.ncirs.usyd.edu.au/facts/f-diabetes.html

Classen's work has NOT been substantiated in other studies however , like
this big Danish one ..
http://www.ncirs.usyd.edu.au/facts/f-diabetes.html


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  #6  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Susan
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

x-no-archive: yes

Peter C wrote:
> "Peter Bowditch" <myfirstname@ratbags.com> wrote in message
> news:deqlk2tiq34f34h4ijv84eucdnk09sjg8i@4ax.com...
>
> "There have been a number of studies which have searched for links between
> diabetes and immunisations. The only studies suggesting a possible increase
> in risk have come from Dr John B Classen. He found that if the first
> vaccination in children is performed after 2 months of age, there is an
> increased risk of diabetes. His laboratory study in animals also found that
> certain vaccines, if given at birth, actually decrease the risk of diabetes.
> This study was based on experiments using anthrax vaccine, which is very
> rarely used in children or adults. Dr Classen also compared diabetes rates
> with vaccination schedules in different countries, and interpreted his
> results as meaning that vaccination causes an increased risk of diabetes.
> This has been criticised because the comparison between countries included
> vaccines which are no longer used or used rarely, such as smallpox and the
> tuberculosis vaccine (BCG). The study also failed to consider many reasons
> other than vaccination which could influence rates of diabetes in different
> countries. Later, in 2002, Dr Classen suggested that vaccination of Finnish
> children with Hib vaccine caused clusters of diabetes 3 years later, and
> that his experiments in mice confirmed this association."
> http://www.ncirs.usyd.edu.au/facts/f-diabetes.html
>
> Classen's work has NOT been substantiated in other studies however , like
> this big Danish one ..
> http://www.ncirs.usyd.edu.au/facts/f-diabetes.html
>
>


If I'm not mistaken, didn't the French discontinue use of the HepB
vaccine that's mandatory in the U.S. due to an uptick in diabetes
associated with it?

Susan
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  #7  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Priscilla Ballou
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

In article <4r0sgvFp6ljbU1@individual.net>,
"oldal4865" <oldal4865@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I have had dealings with a convicted bank robber, a convicted
> murderer, and a few people who spent time as involuntary commitments in
> Mental Health. One of the commitments is T1 and calls me long distance
> when her meds fog her mind so badly that she needs help with her insulin
> dosages.


Good for you, Al. Now, why does this not surprise me? ;-)

Priscilla
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  #8  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Michael
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Ozgirl wrote:
> Peter Bowditch wrote:
>
>> People reckon that diabetes causes depression.
>>
>> I was just sent down the slope by having to respond in
>>

> another group
>
>> (misc.health.alternative) to someone posting information
>>

> from an
>
>> anti-vaccination liar web site which claims that Type 1
>>

> diabetes is
>
>> caused by vaccination.
>>
>> There is no lie too big for these perverts to tell in
>>

> their insane
>
>> campaign against immunisation.
>>
>> I needed to vent to a sympathetic audience. Sorry. Normal
>>

> programming
>
>> will resume shortly.
>>

>
> I'll be your mother Peter It's a shame some of these anti
> vaccination people cannot see a real deal epidemic of these
> childhood diseases that killed many children (and adults).
> Let them see polio at it's worst stage, or whooping cough in
> a baby.
>

On the other hand, they're pushing a Chicken Pox vaccine -- my kid's
preschool is /requiring/ it. I understand having a chicken pox vaccine
for adults, but what's the mortality rate of chicken pox in 5 year olds???

--
T2 dx May 2005 with A1c 10.1
1000 mg Metformin 2x day
1000 mg Fish Oil (Omega 3) 2x day
500 mg Niacin 1x day
last A1c: 5.0 (Oct 2006)
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  #9  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Susan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

x-no-archive: yes

Michael wrote:

> On the other hand, they're pushing a Chicken Pox vaccine -- my kid's
> preschool is /requiring/ it. I understand having a chicken pox vaccine
> for adults, but what's the mortality rate of chicken pox in 5 year olds???
>


Our old pediatrician was horrified at the demand for new, first
generation vaccines. There are significant bugs and safety issues to be
worked out that often don't come to light til they're harmed folks.

There are many useful, important vaccines, but anyone who doesn't
believe that they have potential and demonstrated ability to cause
autoimmune reactions or other problems isn't reading the history on
them, either.

Susan
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  #10  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Michael
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Susan wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Michael wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, they're pushing a Chicken Pox vaccine -- my kid's
>> preschool is /requiring/ it. I understand having a chicken pox
>> vaccine for adults, but what's the mortality rate of chicken pox in 5
>> year olds???
>>

>
> Our old pediatrician was horrified at the demand for new, first
> generation vaccines. There are significant bugs and safety issues to
> be worked out that often don't come to light til they're harmed folks.
>
> There are many useful, important vaccines, but anyone who doesn't
> believe that they have potential and demonstrated ability to cause
> autoimmune reactions or other problems isn't reading the history on
> them, either.
>
> Susan

so at this point we have a decision... our oldest is 10, and she's
approaching the age when she really needs the chicken pox
vaccine...because our kids have managed to avoid the disease (probably
because so many are accepting the vaccine). Do we vaccinate just her,
or do we hit the 8 and 5 year olds at the same time? Fortunately, I
think we have 2 years to decide (so they'll be 12, 10, and 7)

My daughter is also old enough to get the HPV vaccine (oh man I don't
want to go there)

mt

--
T2 dx May 2005 with A1c 10.1
1000 mg Metformin 2x day
1000 mg Fish Oil (Omega 3) 2x day
500 mg Niacin 1x day
last A1c: 5.0 (Oct 2006)
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  #11  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Peter Bowditch
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Michael <micha8s-yahoo@please-don't-spam-me.com> wrote:

>Ozgirl wrote:
>> Peter Bowditch wrote:
>>
>>> People reckon that diabetes causes depression.
>>>
>>> I was just sent down the slope by having to respond in
>>>

>> another group
>>
>>> (misc.health.alternative) to someone posting information
>>>

>> from an
>>
>>> anti-vaccination liar web site which claims that Type 1
>>>

>> diabetes is
>>
>>> caused by vaccination.
>>>
>>> There is no lie too big for these perverts to tell in
>>>

>> their insane
>>
>>> campaign against immunisation.
>>>
>>> I needed to vent to a sympathetic audience. Sorry. Normal
>>>

>> programming
>>
>>> will resume shortly.
>>>

>>
>> I'll be your mother Peter It's a shame some of these anti
>> vaccination people cannot see a real deal epidemic of these
>> childhood diseases that killed many children (and adults).
>> Let them see polio at it's worst stage, or whooping cough in
>> a baby.
>>

>On the other hand, they're pushing a Chicken Pox vaccine -- my kid's
>preschool is /requiring/ it. I understand having a chicken pox vaccine
>for adults, but what's the mortality rate of chicken pox in 5 year olds???


Death isn't the only outcome:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/vaxliars/varicella1.htm

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/vaxliars/varicella2.htm

Except sometimes:

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/vaxliars/varicella3.htm
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
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  #12  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Peter Bowditch
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Michael wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, they're pushing a Chicken Pox vaccine -- my kid's
>> preschool is /requiring/ it. I understand having a chicken pox vaccine
>> for adults, but what's the mortality rate of chicken pox in 5 year olds???
>>

>
>Our old pediatrician was horrified at the demand for new, first
>generation vaccines. There are significant bugs and safety issues to be
>worked out that often don't come to light til they're harmed folks.
>
>There are many useful, important vaccines, but anyone who doesn't
>believe that they have potential and demonstrated ability to cause
>autoimmune reactions or other problems isn't reading the history on
>them, either.
>
>Susan


And anyone reading the lies about such things as auto-immune
reactions, as promulgated on a plethora of anti-vaccination web sites,
isn't reading the history of them either.

Just because Barbara Loe Fisher or Joe Mercola or Bernard Rimland says
something doesn't make it true. Quite the opposite, usually.

--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Ozgirl
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Michael wrote:
> Ozgirl wrote:
>> Peter Bowditch wrote:
>>
>>> People reckon that diabetes causes depression.
>>>
>>> I was just sent down the slope by having to respond in
>>>

>> another group
>>
>>> (misc.health.alternative) to someone posting information
>>>

>> from an
>>
>>> anti-vaccination liar web site which claims that Type 1
>>>

>> diabetes is
>>
>>> caused by vaccination.
>>>
>>> There is no lie too big for these perverts to tell in
>>>

>> their insane
>>
>>> campaign against immunisation.
>>>
>>> I needed to vent to a sympathetic audience. Sorry.

Normal
>>>

>> programming
>>
>>> will resume shortly.
>>>

>>
>> I'll be your mother Peter It's a shame some of these

anti
>> vaccination people cannot see a real deal epidemic of

these
>> childhood diseases that killed many children (and

adults).
>> Let them see polio at it's worst stage, or whooping cough

in
>> a baby.
>>

> On the other hand, they're pushing a Chicken Pox

vaccine -- my kid's
> preschool is /requiring/ it. I understand having a

chicken pox
> vaccine for adults, but what's the mortality rate of

chicken pox in 5
> year olds???


One of my kids almost died with chicken pox. Don't fall into
the trap of dismissing the severity of any of the "childhood
diseases".

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  #14  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Susan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

x-no-archive: yes

Michael wrote:

> so at this point we have a decision... our oldest is 10, and she's
> approaching the age when she really needs the chicken pox
> vaccine...because our kids have managed to avoid the disease (probably
> because so many are accepting the vaccine). Do we vaccinate just her,
> or do we hit the 8 and 5 year olds at the same time? Fortunately, I
> think we have 2 years to decide (so they'll be 12, 10, and 7)
>
> My daughter is also old enough to get the HPV vaccine (oh man I don't
> want to go there)


All I can say is to be extremely wary of new vaccines. And do your
homework.

I don't understand why we're vaccinating for chicken pox, anyway?

Susan
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  #15  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Susan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

x-no-archive: yes


Peter Bowditch wrote:

> And anyone reading the lies about such things as auto-immune
> reactions, as promulgated on a plethora of anti-vaccination web sites,
> isn't reading the history of them either.


I've never visited nor read a single anti vaccination web site. I have,
however, talked to researchers in person and read scientific literature.

>
> Just because Barbara Loe Fisher or Joe Mercola or Bernard Rimland says
> something doesn't make it true. Quite the opposite, usually.
>


I don't know who the first two are, and I don't hold the last in high
esteem.

Auto immune reactions to vaccines is a well known and established fact,
not a cult belief.

I'm not anti vaccine, but I am pro caution and careful decision making
about which ones to use.

Susan
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  #16  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Susan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

x-no-archive: yes

Susan wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
>
> Peter Bowditch wrote:
>
>> And anyone reading the lies about such things as auto-immune
>> reactions, as promulgated on a plethora of anti-vaccination web sites,
>> isn't reading the history of them either.

>
>
> I've never visited nor read a single anti vaccination web site. I have,
> however, talked to researchers in person and read scientific literature.
>
>>
>> Just because Barbara Loe Fisher or Joe Mercola or Bernard Rimland says
>> something doesn't make it true. Quite the opposite, usually.
>>

>
> I don't know who the first two are, and I don't hold the last in high
> esteem.
>
> Auto immune reactions to vaccines is a well known and established fact,
> not a cult belief.
>
> I'm not anti vaccine, but I am pro caution and careful decision making
> about which ones to use.
>
> Susan


Correction: I don't know who Fisher and Rimland are. I know who
Mercola is.

Susan
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  #17  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Michele
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 10:32:05 -0500, Susan <nevermind@nomail.com>
wrote:


>If I'm not mistaken, didn't the French discontinue use of the HepB
>vaccine that's mandatory in the U.S. due to an uptick in diabetes
>associated with it?
>
>Susan


It is not mandatory yet, but highly suggested as is for hepatitis C.
Then there are people me. I have been through the vaccine routine
twice. Neither time did my body produce the antibodies. Therefore, I
cannot be vaccinated against hepatitis in any form. There about 5 or 6
of us in the city of 100,000 that this has happened to. I had to give
up my job in health care over this.
My Dr. was surprised about this but I was not. I am allergic to so
many drugs that nothing surprises me. Remember a while back we had
that anthrax in letters to the government? Everyone was supposed to
take Cipro to protect yourself. I could not because it causes a severe
reaction in me with a pretty good chance of death. So for me it was
take Cipro and die or get anthrax and die. I had to make jokes about
it to keep me from going crazy. Welcome to my life.

Michele
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  #18  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Peter Bowditch
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote:

>If I'm not mistaken, didn't the French discontinue use of the HepB
>vaccine that's mandatory in the U.S. due to an uptick in diabetes
>associated with it?


Here's the news story from 1999. Note that the scare was about MS, not
diabetes, and it came from someone (Classens) who is a well-known
anti-vaccination loon with his own commercial cure business. Also note
that with hundreds of millions of doses any real connection with MS
should have been obvious. You can also see that the French didn't
"discontinue use", they just stopped vaccination adolescents. The
vaccination of infants continued. The French childhood vaccination
schedule can be seen at
http://www.ssi.dk/euvac/vaccination/france.html

There doesn't seem to be any confirming research published since 1999
indicating any link between HepB and MS, and the CDC's own site says
that results of some large-scale studies carried out by the French
were expected at the end of 1999. The fact that nothing has appeared
is strong evidence that there was nothing to announce.

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/hepb/q&a.htm

Don't believe everything you see on a "vaccine warning" site. Oops,
did I say "everything"? I meant "anything". There's a reason I list
hem under the heading "Anti-vaccination Liars".

January 1999

http://www.infectiousdiseasenews.com/199901/france.asp (registration
required)

GENEVA - On Oct. 1, 1998, the French Ministry of Health announced it
would suspend routine hepatitis B immunization of adolescents in
French schools, but that it would continue the immunization of infants
and high-risk adults.

This decision followed concerns, despite a lack of scientific evidence
establishing a causal relationship, that hepatitis B (HepB)
immunization might be linked to the development or flare-up of
demyelinating diseases such as multiple sclerosis (MS) and comes in
the wake of enormous pressure from anti-vaccine groups, according to a
statement from the World Health Organization (WHO).

Although France will continue with infant and high-risk adult
immunization, WHO is concerned the decision may lead to loss of public
confidence in this vaccine and other countries which desperately need
the vaccine could suspend or delay introduction of the vaccine.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is also concerned
that France's action could negatively affect adolescent HepB
immunization levels in the United States; however Walter A. Orenstein,
MD, director of the National Immunization Program and a member of the
Infectious Diseases in Children editorial board, said the CDC is not
currently aware of any declines in adolescent HepB vaccinations.

Following the decision by French health authorities, WHO, with
assistance from external experts in neurology, epidemiology,
immunology and public health, reviewed the scientific evidence on
whether HepB vaccine can cause demyelinating diseases such as MS.

From this review, WHO concluded that available scientific data does
not demonstrate a causal association between HepB immunization and
central nervous system diseases.

However, the available evidence is for the most part inconclusive in
proving either point, according to chief of the Vaccine Safety and
Development Activity at the National Immunization Program Robert T.
Chen, MD, who was present for the data review by the Viral Hepatitis
Board, which took place at the WHO headquarters.

Chen said French health authorities based their decision to suspend
the adolescent HepB program on preliminary results from two
unpublished case-control studies commissioned by French authorities.
One study is taking place in France using neurology referral centers
for sources of cases and controls, while the second study is underway
in the United Kingdom using a large-linked database with about 4
million patients enrolled in general practice.

Both studies had an approximate relative risk around 1.5 with a 95%
confidence interval overlapping 1 - which indicates this was not
statistically significant. The sample size was too small, however, to
permit ruling out a true association, Chen said.

he extensive pre-licensure clinical trials of the HepB vaccine did not
document an association with MS, and hundreds of millions of people
worldwide have been immunized without developing MS or other
autoimmune diseases. However, not all rare adverse events are
discovered in clinical trials which can involve only a few thousand
volunteers, and adverse event surveillance is not always present in
areas like Africa where the clinical trials took place, Chen said.

Prospective studies of MS patients have shown that exacerbations
appeared to be more frequent after nonspecific viral illnesses. This
is may be done due to generalized stimulation of the immune system
that occurs with such infections. However, whether vaccinations
actually cause an overall excess of MS in the population can only be
evaluated in a population-based study.

It is possible that these MS case reports are purely coincidental to
hepatitis B vaccination, and carefully controlled studies are
currently underway to determine the nature of these reports.

At the recent Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices meeting,
William Shaffner, MD, professor and chairman of the department of
preventive medicine, Vanderbilt University School of Medicine,
Nashville, Tenn., spoke on behalf of the Infectious Diseases Society
of America (IDSA). "It's important to understand that the French made
this decision without a scientific study that identifies such a risk,"
he said. "Of even greater concern is that this decision came only days
after the WHO review of this subject by independent specialists that
determined there was no causal link between HepB vaccination and
demyelinating disease."

The U.S. National Multiple Sclerosis Society also released a statement
that said it saw no evidence of such a link, he added. IDSA sponsors
the Vaccine Initiative, a vaccine communication project of the IDSA
and the Pediatric Infectious Diseases Society.

More than 1 billion doses of HepB have been used since 1981 with a
good safety and efficacy record, and the vaccine is 95% effective in
preventing the chronic carrier state of HBV, according to WHO. It is
the chronic carriers of HBV who are at high risk of death from
cirrhosis and liver cancer. There are more than 350 million at-risk
chronic carriers of HBV. Ceasing immunization could only increase the
number of chronic carriers.

WHO strongly recommends that all countries already using HepB vaccine
as a routine vaccine continue to do so, and that countries not yet
using the vaccine begin as soon as possible.

The CDC states that any presumed risk of adverse events associated
with HepB vaccination must be balanced with the expected 4,000-5,000
liver disease deaths that would occur without HepB immunization,
assuming a 5% lifetime risk of hepatitis B virus infection.

Additional data from France associates immunization against HepB to
the development of autoimmune rheumatoid diseases such as lupus and
rheumatoid arthritis. The rise of autoimmunity following hepatitis B
immunization has become a major public health concern, according to
data from the recent 62nd annual meeting of the American College of
Rheumatology in San Diego.

John B. Classen, MD, immunologist at Classen Immunotherapies, has
published papers associating HepB immunization and other diseases to
the development of insulin-dependent diabetes. However, a National
Institutes of Health (NIH) expert panel found there should be no
change in immunization policies or practices, based on a review of the
Classen data, as an etiologic relationship has not been proven.

The CDC agrees that additional evidence since that time is not
sufficient to change the NIH conclusion, said Frank DeStefano, MD,
with the CDC Vaccine Safety and Development Activity.
--
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
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  #19  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:15 PM
dubllgully@yahoo.com
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Haven't posted for a loooonnng time, just been reading and fishing and
stuff. And moving. Sorry. Still here, and still ornery.

Type 1 here, way back then in about 1980 or so, I was put in the
hospital because no one could figure out what was wrong with me. Not
too bad of a hospital visit, but still a hospital stay. After 2 weeks
in the bin, guess what we found. A chicken pox! Hmm, had it when I
was a kid, my mom was cussing about the docs thinking she didn't know
or remember, because apparently I had it realllly bad. So she says.
Anywayyyyy, a type 1 with chicken pox and 30 years old, had all kinds
of docs worried. Nothing happened, and my daughter and I both stopped
itching and cleared up.

Not a sad ending (well, not to some) but still another "what could
happen" that you never think of.

Judy
Type 1, 1974
Pump (3 months now)
North Carolina !!, USA (not Kentucky!!)


Michael wrote:
> Susan wrote:
> > x-no-archive: yes
> >
> > Michael wrote:
> >
> >> On the other hand, they're pushing a Chicken Pox vaccine -- my kid's
> >> preschool is /requiring/ it. I understand having a chicken pox
> >> vaccine for adults, but what's the mortality rate of chicken pox in 5
> >> year olds???
> >>

> >
> > Our old pediatrician was horrified at the demand for new, first
> > generation vaccines. There are significant bugs and safety issues to
> > be worked out that often don't come to light til they're harmed folks.
> >
> > There are many useful, important vaccines, but anyone who doesn't
> > believe that they have potential and demonstrated ability to cause
> > autoimmune reactions or other problems isn't reading the history on
> > them, either.
> >
> > Susan

> so at this point we have a decision... our oldest is 10, and she's
> approaching the age when she really needs the chicken pox
> vaccine...because our kids have managed to avoid the disease (probably
> because so many are accepting the vaccine). Do we vaccinate just her,
> or do we hit the 8 and 5 year olds at the same time? Fortunately, I
> think we have 2 years to decide (so they'll be 12, 10, and 7)
>
> My daughter is also old enough to get the HPV vaccine (oh man I don't
> want to go there)
>
> mt
>
> --
> T2 dx May 2005 with A1c 10.1
> 1000 mg Metformin 2x day
> 1000 mg Fish Oil (Omega 3) 2x day
> 500 mg Niacin 1x day
> last A1c: 5.0 (Oct 2006)


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  #20  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:16 PM
Nan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Wierd things can happen to people - and forget the statistical curves!
Some of us always hit the far reaches.
Example - I had chicken pox twice as a child (and since my dad was a
doctor and his best friend was a pediatrician , I'm sure of the
diagnosis). My brother, about 16 or 17 years old, was absolutely sure
he would not catch it (dumb, macho teen age stuff). So he got a
TERRIBLE case. Both of us survived.
Nan, Type 2

On Nov 4, 5:22 am, dubllgu...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Haven't posted for a loooonnng time, just been reading and fishing and
> stuff. And moving. Sorry. Still here, and still ornery.
>
> Type 1 here, way back then in about 1980 or so, I was put in the
> hospital because no one could figure out what was wrong with me. Not
> too bad of a hospital visit, but still a hospital stay. After 2 weeks
> in the bin, guess what we found. A chicken pox! Hmm, had it when I
> was a kid, my mom was cussing about the docs thinking she didn't know
> or remember, because apparently I had it realllly bad. So she says.
> Anywayyyyy, a type 1 with chicken pox and 30 years old, had all kinds
> of docs worried. Nothing happened, and my daughter and I both stopped
> itching and cleared up.
>
> Not a sad ending (well, not to some) but still another "what could
> happen" that you never think of.
>
> Judy
> Type 1, 1974
> Pump (3 months now)
> North Carolina !!, USA (not Kentucky!!)
>
> Michael wrote:
> > Susan wrote:
> > > x-no-archive: yes

>
> > > Michael wrote:

>
> > >> On the other hand, they're pushing a Chicken Pox vaccine -- my kid's
> > >> preschool is /requiring/ it. I understand having a chicken pox
> > >> vaccine for adults, but what's the mortality rate of chicken pox in 5
> > >> year olds???

>
> > > Our old pediatrician was horrified at the demand for new, first
> > > generation vaccines. There are significant bugs and safety issues to
> > > be worked out that often don't come to light til they're harmed folks.

>
> > > There are many useful, important vaccines, but anyone who doesn't
> > > believe that they have potential and demonstrated ability to cause
> > > autoimmune reactions or other problems isn't reading the history on
> > > them, either.

>
> > > Susan

> > so at this point we have a decision... our oldest is 10, and she's
> > approaching the age when she really needs the chicken pox
> > vaccine...because our kids have managed to avoid the disease (probably
> > because so many are accepting the vaccine). Do we vaccinate just her,
> > or do we hit the 8 and 5 year olds at the same time? Fortunately, I
> > think we have 2 years to decide (so they'll be 12, 10, and 7)

>
> > My daughter is also old enough to get the HPV vaccine (oh man I don't
> > want to go there)

>
> > mt

>
> > --
> > T2 dx May 2005 with A1c 10.1
> > 1000 mg Metformin 2x day
> > 1000 mg Fish Oil (Omega 3) 2x day
> > 500 mg Niacin 1x day
> > last A1c: 5.0 (Oct 2006)


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  #21  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:16 PM
Trinkwasser
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 20:31:02 -0500, Susan <nevermind@nomail.com>
wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>
>Peter Bowditch wrote:
>
>> And anyone reading the lies about such things as auto-immune
>> reactions, as promulgated on a plethora of anti-vaccination web sites,
>> isn't reading the history of them either.

>
>I've never visited nor read a single anti vaccination web site. I have,
>however, talked to researchers in person and read scientific literature.
>
>>
>> Just because Barbara Loe Fisher or Joe Mercola or Bernard Rimland says
>> something doesn't make it true. Quite the opposite, usually.
>>

>
>I don't know who the first two are, and I don't hold the last in high
>esteem.
>
>Auto immune reactions to vaccines is a well known and established fact,
>not a cult belief.
>
>I'm not anti vaccine, but I am pro caution and careful decision making
>about which ones to use.


My take is, it's a statistical crapshoot.

A proportion of children who get the "common childhood diseases" go on
to develop problems.

Probaly a much lower proportion of children who are vaccinated go on
to develop problems from the vaccination.

However if *you* are that 1 in 100 000 child then the problem is 100%

"do you feel lucky, punk?"
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  #22  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:16 PM
W. Baker
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Michael <micha8s-yahoo@please-don't-spam-me.com> wrote:
: Ozgirl wrote:
: > Peter Bowditch wrote:
: >
: >
: On the other hand, they're pushing a Chicken Pox vaccine -- my kid's
: preschool is /requiring/ it. I understand having a chicken pox vaccine
: for adults, but what's the mortality rate of chicken pox in 5 year olds???

: --
: T2 dx May 2005 with A1c 10.1
: 1000 mg Metformin 2x day
: 1000 mg Fish Oil (Omega 3) 2x day
: 500 mg Niacin 1x day
: last A1c: 5.0 (Oct 2006)

First, vaccinating kids is one of the best ways to prevent the spread, as
kids spread stuuf back to their families. Just look at the cold sand
stomach problemss that can run through a class and all their parents and
siblings.

If you never get chicken pox, you can never get shingles, which is a
painful disease, at its mildest and can cause permanet pain problems in
older adults.

Is there a good reason to have a child and the family members who catch
the chicken pox miss school or work?

Just a few thoughts off teh top of my head.

Wendy
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  #23  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:16 PM
percy
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Nan wrote:
> Wierd things can happen to people - and forget the statistical curves!
> Some of us always hit the far reaches.
> Example - I had chicken pox twice as a child (and since my dad was a
> doctor and his best friend was a pediatrician , I'm sure of the
> diagnosis). My brother, about 16 or 17 years old, was absolutely sure
> he would not catch it (dumb, macho teen age stuff). So he got a
> TERRIBLE case. Both of us survived.
> Nan, Type 2
>


My endo doesn't believe that, at 44, I haven't had chicken pox or mumps
or measles. Being an only child can have it's disadvantages.

Vicki
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  #24  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:16 PM
Chris Malcolm
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Trinkwasser <spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 20:31:02 -0500, Susan <nevermind@nomail.com>
> wrote:


>>x-no-archive: yes
>>
>>
>>Peter Bowditch wrote:
>>
>>> And anyone reading the lies about such things as auto-immune
>>> reactions, as promulgated on a plethora of anti-vaccination web sites,
>>> isn't reading the history of them either.

>>
>>I've never visited nor read a single anti vaccination web site. I have,
>>however, talked to researchers in person and read scientific literature.
>>
>>>
>>> Just because Barbara Loe Fisher or Joe Mercola or Bernard Rimland says
>>> something doesn't make it true. Quite the opposite, usually.
>>>

>>
>>I don't know who the first two are, and I don't hold the last in high
>>esteem.
>>
>>Auto immune reactions to vaccines is a well known and established fact,
>>not a cult belief.
>>
>>I'm not anti vaccine, but I am pro caution and careful decision making
>>about which ones to use.


> My take is, it's a statistical crapshoot.


> A proportion of children who get the "common childhood diseases" go on
> to develop problems.


> Probaly a much lower proportion of children who are vaccinated go on
> to develop problems from the vaccination.


> However if *you* are that 1 in 100 000 child then the problem is 100%


> "do you feel lucky, punk?"


My mother stopped giving me vaccinations as a child because I reacted
badly to them. My brother and sister got them all. She used to tell me
that they were protecting me. The few vaccinations I had in later
life, such as tetanus and tuberculosis, made me much iller than most
folk get. My mother's doctor agreed with her. He said it was known
that a small number of kids reacted badly to them and that they could
be dangerous to such kids.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

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  #25  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:16 PM
Julie Bove
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child




"Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:4r28mhFpdf4mU2@individual.net...

>
> I don't understand why we're vaccinating for chicken pox, anyway?


It's contagious so a kid with it can't go to school. If they miss school,
the school could lose some of their funding. At least that's how some
school systems operate.

--
See my webpage:
http://mysite.verizon.net/juliebove/index.htm


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  #26  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:16 PM
Chris Malcolm
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Julie Bove <juliebove@verizon.net> wrote:
> "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message
> news:4r28mhFpdf4mU2@individual.net...


>> I don't understand why we're vaccinating for chicken pox, anyway?


> It's contagious so a kid with it can't go to school. If they miss school,
> the school could lose some of their funding. At least that's how some
> school systems operate.


When I was a kid a mother with a kid with chicken pox would throw a
chicken pox party so other mothers could bring their kids along.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

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  #27  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:16 PM
Trinkwasser
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

On 5 Nov 2006 00:14:23 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
wrote:

>Trinkwasser <spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 20:31:02 -0500, Susan <nevermind@nomail.com>
>> wrote:

>
>>>x-no-archive: yes
>>>
>>>
>>>Peter Bowditch wrote:
>>>
>>>> And anyone reading the lies about such things as auto-immune
>>>> reactions, as promulgated on a plethora of anti-vaccination web sites,
>>>> isn't reading the history of them either.
>>>
>>>I've never visited nor read a single anti vaccination web site. I have,
>>>however, talked to researchers in person and read scientific literature.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just because Barbara Loe Fisher or Joe Mercola or Bernard Rimland says
>>>> something doesn't make it true. Quite the opposite, usually.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I don't know who the first two are, and I don't hold the last in high
>>>esteem.
>>>
>>>Auto immune reactions to vaccines is a well known and established fact,
>>>not a cult belief.
>>>
>>>I'm not anti vaccine, but I am pro caution and careful decision making
>>>about which ones to use.

>
>> My take is, it's a statistical crapshoot.

>
>> A proportion of children who get the "common childhood diseases" go on
>> to develop problems.

>
>> Probaly a much lower proportion of children who are vaccinated go on
>> to develop problems from the vaccination.

>
>> However if *you* are that 1 in 100 000 child then the problem is 100%

>
>> "do you feel lucky, punk?"

>
>My mother stopped giving me vaccinations as a child because I reacted
>badly to them. My brother and sister got them all. She used to tell me
>that they were protecting me. The few vaccinations I had in later
>life, such as tetanus and tuberculosis, made me much iller than most
>folk get. My mother's doctor agreed with her. He said it was known
>that a small number of kids reacted badly to them and that they could
>be dangerous to such kids.


I was fortunate, never reacted badly to any of the vaccinations then
or since.

But when we were going on holiday one year and mother had her smallpox
revaccination it was touch and go whether we'd get to the holiday, her
arm swelled up like a rugby ball and was oozing pus from a massive
sore where the vaccination was given.

So yes, undoubtedly it does happen whatever the government says.
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  #28  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:16 PM
Michael
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Chris Malcolm wrote:
> Julie Bove <juliebove@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4r28mhFpdf4mU2@individual.net...
>>

>
>
>>> I don't understand why we're vaccinating for chicken pox, anyway?
>>>

>
>
>> It's contagious so a kid with it can't go to school. If they miss school,
>> the school could lose some of their funding. At least that's how some
>> school systems operate.
>>

>
> When I was a kid a mother with a kid with chicken pox would throw a
> chicken pox party so other mothers could bring their kids along.
>
>

we tried that. Jess /still/ didn't get the pox.

--
T2 dx May 2005 with A1c 10.1
1000 mg Metformin 2x day
1000 mg Fish Oil (Omega 3) 2x day
500 mg Niacin 1x day
last A1c: 5.0 (Oct 2006)
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  #29  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:16 PM
W. Baker
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
: Julie Bove <juliebove@verizon.net> wrote:
: > "Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message
: > news:4r28mhFpdf4mU2@individual.net...

: >> I don't understand why we're vaccinating for chicken pox, anyway?

: > It's contagious so a kid with it can't go to school. If they miss school,
: > the school could lose some of their funding. At least that's how some
: > school systems operate.

: When I was a kid a mother with a kid with chicken pox would throw a
: chicken pox party so other mothers could bring their kids along.

: --
: Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
: IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
: [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

When I was kid the family who had not had the chicken pox was quatantined
and had to stay home. I lost more time from school and camp from those
quarantines ann ddidn't get the disease even when my brother had it right
in the next room. Finally, when I was 11, I got it in June, nt the usual
season, from no known exposure. My Mom would have loved fo rme to get it
earlier and get it out of the way.

If the vaccine confers immunity to shingles as well as chicken pos, it
might be a very good thing.

Wendy





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  #30  
Old 11-08-2006, 10:16 PM
Priscilla H. Ballou
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Sometimes I feel like a motherless child

In article <eiob6e$10r$2@reader2.panix.com>,
"W. Baker" <wbaker@panix.com> wrote:

> When I was kid the family who had not had the chicken pox was quatantined
> and had to stay home. I lost more time from school and camp from those
> quarantines ann ddidn't get the disease even when my brother had it right
> in the next room. Finally, when I was 11, I got it in June, nt the usual
> season, from no known exposure. My Mom would have loved fo rme to get it
> earlier and get it out of the way.


I don't follow. She'd have rather you'd gotten it earlier, but she did
what she could to prevent you from getting it earlier. Huh?

Priscilla