Statins - My Personal Experience

I was diagnosed as T2 in May of 2007. The VA apparently has a policy where
if you are diagnosed as T2, you automatically get put on statins, even if
your cholesterol numbers are already low. Mine have always been low, must
be genetic or something. I don't recall ever having a number 100 or higher.

My wife, the worry-wart that she can often be, heard anecdotal info from
on-line friends about the evils of statins, and confirmed them by googling.
She asked me to stop taking the statins, and I complied. I was instead
prescribed some vitamin (which eludes me - I know it's not niacin but
something like it, some other B vitamin?) and was on that for a while. My
numbers expectedly went up (slightly). My doctor wanted me back on the
statins. I explained that my wife mentioned, among other things, danger to
liver function. She explained that my liver, according to blood tests at
least, was quite healthy, and the only danger there was if you had liver
problems to begin with. So I went back on the statins.

I started feeling scatter-brained. I was getting clumsy. For example, In
my entire life, I've never poked myself in the eye trying to put my glasses
on, then one day it happened three times. I went to cook my sons some Mac
'n Cheese and pushed the wrong burner button on the stove, which shattered a
glass plate that was on that particular burner. I was forgetting
appointments (I never do that). I was seeming to forget everything.

The next time I saw the doc, I explained my worries with her. She decided
to do a routine memory test (of sorts). I seemed to handle most of it okay,
but the strange thing that stuck with me was she asked me to count backwards
from 100 by seven. Now I've always been sharp at math, but I got lost.
Completely lost and and couldn't seem to do it. She shrugged it off and had
me count backwards by five or some easier number, which I was able to
handle. The idea that it might be the statins did not occur to me at that
time.

I should probably mention that when I went back on statins, I did so because
my doc had asked me to, and I didn't bother to tell my wife (since I knew
what her reaction would be). I'd been back on them for about three months,
when she apparently figured it out and confronted me. She reminded me that
I'd been complaining about my memory and depression, etc. She doesn't even
know that I was suicidal about a month ago, but she mentioned the suicidal
symptoms reported by some people.

So, I decided I'd better google some. Google toolbar has this neat feature
where when you start entering a phrase, it offers completed phrases. When I
typed "simvastatin" one of the suggested searches was "simvastatin memory"
so I selected that. Apparently quite a few people are reporting memory
problems with statins. One article mentioned that one man who had the
problem to a severe degree lost his symptoms after stopping the medication
for one month. That pretty much settled it for me.

I've only been off the statins for about three days, but I hope I start
feeling like my old self again.

Since my cholesterol numbers are low anyway, I think the risk of what the
things appear to be doing to my brain is just not worth it.

Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem while
on statins?

Bill "Frisbee" Hileman

Bill Hileman wrote:
>
> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem while
> on statins?
>
Yes. As well as other mental problems which stopped within a few days of
ceasing treatment. (Doctor Jekyll, meet Mr. Hyde)

They also happened when I was taking atorvastatin (Lipitor), along with
other side effects.

You're not the only one.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:58:33 -0400, "Bill Hileman"
<discgolfdad@gEEmail.com> wrote:

>Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem while
>on statins?

Nope; I think the doc got the idea I wasn't having any. Hope you're
back to normal soon! And I reckon you owe your wife a back rub or
three... :P

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.4% BMI 25

"Bill Hileman" <discgolfdad@gEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:qT67k.9349$LL4.8888@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>I was diagnosed as T2 in May of 2007. The VA apparently has a policy where
>if you are diagnosed as T2, you automatically get put on statins, even if
>your cholesterol numbers are already low. Mine have always been low, must
>be genetic or something. I don't recall ever having a number 100 or
>higher.
>
> My wife, the worry-wart that she can often be, heard anecdotal info from
> on-line friends about the evils of statins, and confirmed them by
> googling. She asked me to stop taking the statins, and I complied. I was
> instead prescribed some vitamin (which eludes me - I know it's not niacin
> but something like it, some other B vitamin?) and was on that for a while.
> My numbers expectedly went up (slightly). My doctor wanted me back on the
> statins. I explained that my wife mentioned, among other things, danger
> to liver function. She explained that my liver, according to blood tests
> at least, was quite healthy, and the only danger there was if you had
> liver problems to begin with. So I went back on the statins.
>
> I started feeling scatter-brained. I was getting clumsy. For example, In
> my entire life, I've never poked myself in the eye trying to put my
> glasses on, then one day it happened three times. I went to cook my sons
> some Mac 'n Cheese and pushed the wrong burner button on the stove, which
> shattered a glass plate that was on that particular burner. I was
> forgetting appointments (I never do that). I was seeming to forget
> everything.
>
> The next time I saw the doc, I explained my worries with her. She decided
> to do a routine memory test (of sorts). I seemed to handle most of it
> okay, but the strange thing that stuck with me was she asked me to count
> backwards from 100 by seven. Now I've always been sharp at math, but I
> got lost. Completely lost and and couldn't seem to do it. She shrugged it
> off and had me count backwards by five or some easier number, which I was
> able to handle. The idea that it might be the statins did not occur to me
> at that time.
>
> I should probably mention that when I went back on statins, I did so
> because my doc had asked me to, and I didn't bother to tell my wife (since
> I knew what her reaction would be). I'd been back on them for about three
> months, when she apparently figured it out and confronted me. She
> reminded me that I'd been complaining about my memory and depression, etc.
> She doesn't even know that I was suicidal about a month ago, but she
> mentioned the suicidal symptoms reported by some people.
>
> So, I decided I'd better google some. Google toolbar has this neat
> feature where when you start entering a phrase, it offers completed
> phrases. When I typed "simvastatin" one of the suggested searches was
> "simvastatin memory" so I selected that. Apparently quite a few people
> are reporting memory problems with statins. One article mentioned that
> one man who had the problem to a severe degree lost his symptoms after
> stopping the medication for one month. That pretty much settled it for
> me.
>
> I've only been off the statins for about three days, but I hope I start
> feeling like my old self again.
>
> Since my cholesterol numbers are low anyway, I think the risk of what the
> things appear to be doing to my brain is just not worth it.
>
> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem while
> on statins?
>
> Bill "Frisbee" Hileman

Hi Bill, I've been on 40mg of Simvastatin since my MI and DM Dx the month
before you were diagnosed. Although I did fall into a depression of sorts, I
don't think it was due to the statin. I went on Lexapro which, along with
going back to work, completely resolved the depression. I'm now off Lexapro
completely and still on the statin and haven't had any reoccurance of
depression.

I get my blood work done, including liver function, about every three months
and have seen no suspicious numbers. Liver and kidneys are OK.

I'm the sort who loathes to take medication and I've been able to get off
quite a few meds since my MI, but the statin, provided I don't get any bad
side effects, is probably here to stay.

John C.

"Bill Hileman" <discgolfdad@gEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:qT67k.9349$LL4.8888@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>I was diagnosed as T2 in May of 2007. The VA apparently has a policy where
>if you are diagnosed as T2, you automatically get put on statins, even if
>your cholesterol numbers are already low. Mine have always been low, must
>be genetic or something. I don't recall ever having a number 100 or
>higher.
>
> My wife, the worry-wart that she can often be, heard anecdotal info from
> on-line friends about the evils of statins, and confirmed them by
> googling. She asked me to stop taking the statins, and I complied. I was
> instead prescribed some vitamin (which eludes me - I know it's not niacin
> but something like it, some other B vitamin?) and was on that for a while.
> My numbers expectedly went up (slightly). My doctor wanted me back on the
> statins. I explained that my wife mentioned, among other things, danger
> to liver function. She explained that my liver, according to blood tests
> at least, was quite healthy, and the only danger there was if you had
> liver problems to begin with. So I went back on the statins.
>
> I started feeling scatter-brained. I was getting clumsy. For example, In
> my entire life, I've never poked myself in the eye trying to put my
> glasses on, then one day it happened three times. I went to cook my sons
> some Mac 'n Cheese and pushed the wrong burner button on the stove, which
> shattered a glass plate that was on that particular burner. I was
> forgetting appointments (I never do that). I was seeming to forget
> everything.
>
> The next time I saw the doc, I explained my worries with her. She decided
> to do a routine memory test (of sorts). I seemed to handle most of it
> okay, but the strange thing that stuck with me was she asked me to count
> backwards from 100 by seven. Now I've always been sharp at math, but I
> got lost. Completely lost and and couldn't seem to do it. She shrugged it
> off and had me count backwards by five or some easier number, which I was
> able to handle. The idea that it might be the statins did not occur to me
> at that time.
>
> I should probably mention that when I went back on statins, I did so
> because my doc had asked me to, and I didn't bother to tell my wife (since
> I knew what her reaction would be). I'd been back on them for about three
> months, when she apparently figured it out and confronted me. She
> reminded me that I'd been complaining about my memory and depression, etc.
> She doesn't even know that I was suicidal about a month ago, but she
> mentioned the suicidal symptoms reported by some people.
>
> So, I decided I'd better google some. Google toolbar has this neat
> feature where when you start entering a phrase, it offers completed
> phrases. When I typed "simvastatin" one of the suggested searches was
> "simvastatin memory" so I selected that. Apparently quite a few people
> are reporting memory problems with statins. One article mentioned that
> one man who had the problem to a severe degree lost his symptoms after
> stopping the medication for one month. That pretty much settled it for
> me.
>
> I've only been off the statins for about three days, but I hope I start
> feeling like my old self again.
>
> Since my cholesterol numbers are low anyway, I think the risk of what the
> things appear to be doing to my brain is just not worth it.
>
> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem while
> on statins?

I couldn't count backwards from 7 even before the statin.

I don't think I am more clumsy, but I certainly have noticed a problem with
memory. I am constantly forgetting to do things.

In article <qT67k.9349$LL4.8888@bignews7.bellsouth.net>,
"Bill Hileman" <discgolfdad@gEEmail.com> wrote:

> Since my cholesterol numbers are low anyway, I think the risk of what the
> things appear to be doing to my brain is just not worth it.
>
> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem while
> on statins?

You're recounting an example of one of the reasons I will not take a
statin.

The brain *needs* cholesterol!

Priscilla, T2

> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem
> while on statins?
>

I haven't had any problems with Lipitor for the past 2 years.
No liver & kidney problems either; they get checked with general bloodwork
3-4 times a year.

I'd increased my use of sticky notes several years before that already!
Most notably during the months of going into & climbing out of
hypothyroid-land relating to my cancer/treatment/followups.

I don't think I'm any clumsier than pre-Lipitor, though like many of my
age-cohorts my running times are getting slower, not drastically & not
all bad all the time, but definitely slower than a few years ago -- they
were already degrading before the Lipitor.

I'm looking forward to being in a new age group next year!
x5 isn't as good as x0, since not all events do age-groups in 5-year sets,
but at least it's something....
bj

I'm on Crestor and have had no problems...but it's a very low dosage. My
hubby had the muscle weakness problem so went off of it....his HDL is to
low...but his Dr. wants to wait until the next testing period and then see
if they have to decide on another type of Statin. My hubby exercises and
watches what he eats....but I think his problem is hereditary..his Mother
always had Chol problems and actually passed away after having a by-pass
surgery.
"Bill Hileman" <discgolfdad@gEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:qT67k.9349$LL4.8888@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>I was diagnosed as T2 in May of 2007. The VA apparently has a policy where
>if you are diagnosed as T2, you automatically get put on statins, even if
>your cholesterol numbers are already low. Mine have always been low, must
>be genetic or something. I don't recall ever having a number 100 or
>higher.
>
> My wife, the worry-wart that she can often be, heard anecdotal info from
> on-line friends about the evils of statins, and confirmed them by
> googling. She asked me to stop taking the statins, and I complied. I was
> instead prescribed some vitamin (which eludes me - I know it's not niacin
> but something like it, some other B vitamin?) and was on that for a while.
> My numbers expectedly went up (slightly). My doctor wanted me back on the
> statins. I explained that my wife mentioned, among other things, danger
> to liver function. She explained that my liver, according to blood tests
> at least, was quite healthy, and the only danger there was if you had
> liver problems to begin with. So I went back on the statins.
>
> I started feeling scatter-brained. I was getting clumsy. For example, In
> my entire life, I've never poked myself in the eye trying to put my
> glasses on, then one day it happened three times. I went to cook my sons
> some Mac 'n Cheese and pushed the wrong burner button on the stove, which
> shattered a glass plate that was on that particular burner. I was
> forgetting appointments (I never do that). I was seeming to forget
> everything.
>
> The next time I saw the doc, I explained my worries with her. She decided
> to do a routine memory test (of sorts). I seemed to handle most of it
> okay, but the strange thing that stuck with me was she asked me to count
> backwards from 100 by seven. Now I've always been sharp at math, but I
> got lost. Completely lost and and couldn't seem to do it. She shrugged it
> off and had me count backwards by five or some easier number, which I was
> able to handle. The idea that it might be the statins did not occur to me
> at that time.
>
> I should probably mention that when I went back on statins, I did so
> because my doc had asked me to, and I didn't bother to tell my wife (since
> I knew what her reaction would be). I'd been back on them for about three
> months, when she apparently figured it out and confronted me. She
> reminded me that I'd been complaining about my memory and depression, etc.
> She doesn't even know that I was suicidal about a month ago, but she
> mentioned the suicidal symptoms reported by some people.
>
> So, I decided I'd better google some. Google toolbar has this neat
> feature where when you start entering a phrase, it offers completed
> phrases. When I typed "simvastatin" one of the suggested searches was
> "simvastatin memory" so I selected that. Apparently quite a few people
> are reporting memory problems with statins. One article mentioned that
> one man who had the problem to a severe degree lost his symptoms after
> stopping the medication for one month. That pretty much settled it for
> me.
>
> I've only been off the statins for about three days, but I hope I start
> feeling like my old self again.
>
> Since my cholesterol numbers are low anyway, I think the risk of what the
> things appear to be doing to my brain is just not worth it.
>
> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem while
> on statins?
>
> Bill "Frisbee" Hileman
>
>

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:12:05 -0700, "jacquie"
<happikat694@earthlink.net> wrote:

>I'm on Crestor and have had no problems...but it's a very low dosage. My
>hubby had the muscle weakness problem so went off of it....his HDL is to
>low...but his Dr. wants to wait until the next testing period and then see
>if they have to decide on another type of Statin. My hubby exercises and
>watches what he eats....but I think his problem is hereditary..his Mother
>always had Chol problems and actually passed away after having a by-pass
>surgery.

Low HDL and watches what he eats? Does he eat low-fat?


Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alan_s/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (On Indian Roads)

Bill Hileman <discgolfdad@geemail.com> wrote:

> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem while
> on statins?

I stopped my simvastatin by accident because I ran out and forgot to
get a new prescription. To my surprise my memory started improving and
I stopped losing track of conversations, of tasks I was in the middle
of, etc.. Less confusion. So I stayed off.

But next time I saw my doc he insisted they were a very important
preventative for me, and it was probably coincidence. He persuaded me
to start again. The memory problems and confusion returned. I
stopped. The memory problems and confusion went away. Nope, not a
coincidence.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

He doesn't like fatty stuff but once and a while he'll sneak in a burger or
a steak

"Alan S" <loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7e0r54p2lg16jhjf9f9mi8ctvmvmn6au63@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:12:05 -0700, "jacquie"
> <happikat694@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>I'm on Crestor and have had no problems...but it's a very low dosage. My
>>hubby had the muscle weakness problem so went off of it....his HDL is to
>>low...but his Dr. wants to wait until the next testing period and then see
>>if they have to decide on another type of Statin. My hubby exercises and
>>watches what he eats....but I think his problem is hereditary..his Mother
>>always had Chol problems and actually passed away after having a by-pass
>>surgery.
>
> Low HDL and watches what he eats? Does he eat low-fat?
>
>
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
> --
> d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
> Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
> http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alan_s/
> http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (On Indian Roads)
>
>

re statins
i'm on simvastatin and didnt know a side effect was memory loss. its
hard for me to tell as i already had memory loss from the SSRI, lexapro.

i will not stop taking it. there is a history of stroke in my family. i
can live w some memory loss.

"Chris Malcolm" <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:6c5ncvF3egbrqU3@mid.individual.net...
> Bill Hileman <discgolfdad@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem
>> while
>> on statins?
>
> I stopped my simvastatin by accident because I ran out and forgot to
> get a new prescription. To my surprise my memory started improving and
> I stopped losing track of conversations, of tasks I was in the middle
> of, etc.. Less confusion. So I stayed off.
>
> But next time I saw my doc he insisted they were a very important
> preventative for me, and it was probably coincidence. He persuaded me
> to start again. The memory problems and confusion returned. I
> stopped. The memory problems and confusion went away. Nope, not a
> coincidence.

Thanks for all the replies, it would appear that at least three other people
had experiences similar to mine. I was really starting to get concerned, I
knew I was way too young to be having alzheimer's (sp?). The fact alone
that I could -not- count backwards from 100 by sevens really had me worried.
The funny thing, too, was that in my original post, I meant to list a lot
more examples of my confusion and memory loss (like I intended to relate to
my doctor) but I just couldn't remember them all (how's that for irony).

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:16:55 +0100, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Bill Hileman wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem while
>> on statins?
>>
>Yes. As well as other mental problems which stopped within a few days of
>ceasing treatment. (Doctor Jekyll, meet Mr. Hyde)
>
>They also happened when I was taking atorvastatin (Lipitor), along with
>other side effects.

I haven't noticed any differences when on simvastatin or when dropping
it for a trial to make sure.

I did have a weird experience on atorvastatin though, in retrospect it
was probably knocking my BG down but since at the time I wasn't
testing I will never know for certain. This appears to be known but
uncommon.

>You're not the only one.

Yes there have been a few reports of this (see Chris Malcolm below for
one) it obviously isn't that common but equally obviously it does
exist for certain individuals.

My last lipids were spectacular, I wish I knew exactly what I'd done
to improve them beyond moderating the carbs and balancing them against
exercise to keep as euglycemic as possible as my LDL had come down
from previous numbers. This didn;t seem to have improved previously,
the major effects before were on HDL and trigs alone.

Wasn't Old Al one who had problems with statins? ISTR he had a list of
other things you could do to improve your LDL.

Trinkwasser wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:16:55 +0100, John Williamson
> <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Bill Hileman wrote:
>>> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem while
>>> on statins?
>>>
>> Yes. As well as other mental problems which stopped within a few days of
>> ceasing treatment. (Doctor Jekyll, meet Mr. Hyde)
>>
>> They also happened when I was taking atorvastatin (Lipitor), along with
>> other side effects.
>
> I haven't noticed any differences when on simvastatin or when dropping
> it for a trial to make sure.
>
I went through the start-stop cycle three times with Simvastatin to make
sure. About a week to start & a three or four days to stop.
I'm not saying it's a common problem, but it seemed fairly conclusive
for me.

> I did have a weird experience on atorvastatin though, in retrospect it
> was probably knocking my BG down but since at the time I wasn't
> testing I will never know for certain. This appears to be known but
> uncommon.
>
My BG levels seemed unaffected. I seem to be one of the people who can't
tolerate statins, as the three I've tried have all had severe side
effects, & I don't have the patience to work through the whole list.

>> You're not the only one.
>
> Yes there have been a few reports of this (see Chris Malcolm below for
> one) it obviously isn't that common but equally obviously it does
> exist for certain individuals.
>
It's uncommon enough that my doctor's initial reaction was along the
lines of never having heard of it before. He took quite some convincing.

> My last lipids were spectacular, I wish I knew exactly what I'd done
> to improve them beyond moderating the carbs and balancing them against
> exercise to keep as euglycemic as possible as my LDL had come down
> from previous numbers. This didn;t seem to have improved previously,
> the major effects before were on HDL and trigs alone.
>
> Wasn't Old Al one who had problems with statins? ISTR he had a list of
> other things you could do to improve your LDL.
>
It's been discussed in here before, but I can't remember who said what.
Google'd tell the tale if I had time.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

"John Williamson" <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:6calepF3dmereU1@mid.individual.net...
> Trinkwasser wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:16:55 +0100, John Williamson
>> <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bill Hileman wrote:
>>>> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem
>>>> while on statins?
>>>>
>>> Yes. As well as other mental problems which stopped within a few days of
>>> ceasing treatment. (Doctor Jekyll, meet Mr. Hyde)
>>>
>>> They also happened when I was taking atorvastatin (Lipitor), along with
>>> other side effects.
>>
>> I haven't noticed any differences when on simvastatin or when dropping
>> it for a trial to make sure.
>>
> I went through the start-stop cycle three times with Simvastatin to make
> sure. About a week to start & a three or four days to stop.
> I'm not saying it's a common problem, but it seemed fairly conclusive for
> me.
>
>> I did have a weird experience on atorvastatin though, in retrospect it
>> was probably knocking my BG down but since at the time I wasn't
>> testing I will never know for certain. This appears to be known but
>> uncommon.
>>
> My BG levels seemed unaffected. I seem to be one of the people who can't
> tolerate statins, as the three I've tried have all had severe side
> effects, & I don't have the patience to work through the whole list.
>
>>> You're not the only one.
>>
>> Yes there have been a few reports of this (see Chris Malcolm below for
>> one) it obviously isn't that common but equally obviously it does
>> exist for certain individuals.
>>
> It's uncommon enough that my doctor's initial reaction was along the lines
> of never having heard of it before. He took quite some convincing.
>
>> My last lipids were spectacular, I wish I knew exactly what I'd done
>> to improve them beyond moderating the carbs and balancing them against
>> exercise to keep as euglycemic as possible as my LDL had come down
>> from previous numbers. This didn;t seem to have improved previously,
>> the major effects before were on HDL and trigs alone.
>>
>> Wasn't Old Al one who had problems with statins? ISTR he had a list of
>> other things you could do to improve your LDL.
>>
> It's been discussed in here before, but I can't remember who said what.
> Google'd tell the tale if I had time.
>
> --
> Tciao for Now!
>
> John.

http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jul...-that-can-kill

The article is rather lengthy, but fairly easy to read. It discusses the
drug approval process and its many flaws--some of the issues we have
discussed here at length. I found it especially interesting when it brought
up memory issues and statins, given this thread.
--
Best regards,
Michelle C., T2
diet & exercise
BMI 21.5

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:12:36 +0100, John Williamson
<johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Trinkwasser wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:16:55 +0100, John Williamson
>> <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bill Hileman wrote:
>>>> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem while
>>>> on statins?
>>>>
>>> Yes. As well as other mental problems which stopped within a few days of
>>> ceasing treatment. (Doctor Jekyll, meet Mr. Hyde)
>>>
>>> They also happened when I was taking atorvastatin (Lipitor), along with
>>> other side effects.
>>
>> I haven't noticed any differences when on simvastatin or when dropping
>> it for a trial to make sure.
>>
>I went through the start-stop cycle three times with Simvastatin to make
>sure. About a week to start & a three or four days to stop.
>I'm not saying it's a common problem, but it seemed fairly conclusive
>for me.
>
>> I did have a weird experience on atorvastatin though, in retrospect it
>> was probably knocking my BG down but since at the time I wasn't
>> testing I will never know for certain. This appears to be known but
>> uncommon.
>>
>My BG levels seemed unaffected. I seem to be one of the people who can't
>tolerate statins, as the three I've tried have all had severe side
>effects, & I don't have the patience to work through the whole list.
>
>>> You're not the only one.
>>
>> Yes there have been a few reports of this (see Chris Malcolm below for
>> one) it obviously isn't that common but equally obviously it does
>> exist for certain individuals.
>>
>It's uncommon enough that my doctor's initial reaction was along the
>lines of never having heard of it before. He took quite some convincing.

Yes that's the annoying thing, idiosyncratic reactions to drugs are by
no means uncommon but doctors' reactions are often along the lines of
the apocryphal shopkeeper when asked to stock something not on his
shelves

"We don't keep it, there's no demand for it. Funny though, you're the
third person to ask for it this week"

>> My last lipids were spectacular, I wish I knew exactly what I'd done
>> to improve them beyond moderating the carbs and balancing them against
>> exercise to keep as euglycemic as possible as my LDL had come down
>> from previous numbers. This didn;t seem to have improved previously,
>> the major effects before were on HDL and trigs alone.
>>
>> Wasn't Old Al one who had problems with statins? ISTR he had a list of
>> other things you could do to improve your LDL.
>>
>It's been discussed in here before, but I can't remember who said what.
>Google'd tell the tale if I had time.

Yes I should have looked it up and posted a link but I didn't have
time either, sorry!

On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:20:36 +0100, Trinkwasser
<spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:

>>> Wasn't Old Al one who had problems with statins? ISTR he had a list of
>>> other things you could do to improve your LDL.
>>>
>>It's been discussed in here before, but I can't remember who said what.
>>Google'd tell the tale if I had time.
>
>Yes I should have looked it up and posted a link but I didn't have
>time either, sorry!

G'day Gys and Trink

To be honest, now that I've completed the "Fats and
Cholesterol" section of Taubes book, I'm not sure I need to
worry overmuch about cholesterol as such, just about trigs.

Anyway, first, a thread to jog your memory, Gys, when you
were discussing such things with Old Al (I still have no
idea where to purchase guggul:-)

http://tinyurl.com/5t89x9
or
Message-ID: <4565e62a$0$2017$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl>

And a specific post on Old Al's cholesterol-lowering
methods:

http://tinyurl.com/2sspnu
or
Message-ID: <4qq6spFnklnsU1@individual.net>

As Old Al is away, I'll presume permission and repeat the
relevant bit in full on his behalf.

He was replying to a query on ways to lower cholesterol and
other things:

"1. There is evidence that any trick you can use to force
down the ratio of triglycerides/HDL will improve your heart
attack chances.

The key factor is the particle size of your LDL. Small
LDL is deadly. Large LDL is benign. Strangely enough, the
particle size of LDL correlates with the triglycerides/HDL
ratio.

That's one reason (IMO, caution: engineer, not a doctor)
why there is so much controversy over LDL levels. The
particle size of LDL is as important or more important than
the gross amount in the blood but folks don't measure LDL
particle size very often.

2. Your "underlying condition" statement is not clear to
me. My guess at an answer:

High I.R. combined with eating carbohydrate causes the poor
lipid profile. The poor lipid profile damages your arteries.

i. Reduce your I.R. and the lipid profile improves.
ii. Reduce your carb intake and the lipid profile
improves.
iii. Take any or all of several meds/supplements and your
lipid profile improves.
iv. If the lipid profile improves, the risk of heart
attack goes down

While we're at it, my other lipid improving OTC supplements
from

"50 Ways to Lower Your Cholesterol", McGowan, Mary P.,
M.D. (cardiologist)

1. Ground flax seed
2. Walnuts every day
3. Olive oil as your primary cooking oil
4. Stanol Ester Margarine (Benecol et. al.)
5. Garlic
6. Guggul
7. Psyllium

I get my Garlic/Guggul in a pill from iHerb.com

I have an excellent lipid profile but it's not hereditary.
In fact, poor lipids and early heart attacks run in my
family. I improved my lipid panel by basically using every
tool I could find in the medical literature, e.g.
I eat oatmeal mixed with ground flax seed for breakfast
about 360 days a year. Anal-retentive and obsessive
perhaps but I worked 43 years in order to retire and I'm not
interested in dropping dead just yet.

<snip non-lipid stuf>

I hate to harp on the subject but I am willing to "scratch
with my fingernails" in order to improve my lipid profile
and I tend to advise everybody else to do the same. I have
seen too many relatives drop dead early.

More than a sane person would want to know about
triglycerides, HDL and heart disease:

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/reprint/23/11/1679

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/496907

http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/mod...file=article&s...

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/512941_1

Regards
Old Al"

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
d&e, metformin 1500mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alan_s/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (On Indian Roads)

Alan S wrote:
(snipped)

> And a specific post on Old Al's cholesterol-lowering
> methods:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2sspnu
> or
> Message-ID: <4qq6spFnklnsU1@individual.net>
(snipped)
> More than a sane person would want to know about
> triglycerides, HDL and heart disease:
>
> http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/reprint/23/11/1679

Once openning the above article as an abstract there is a menu on the
righthand side for other articles citing in scholar.google as well as
similar article on the same topic. There was not much citing on the one
hand but a fairly good list of articles on the same topic.

The following article was a study of good size and focuses on the
denominator of the TG/HDL ratio.

Prevalence and Treatment of Low HDL Cholesterol Among Primary Care
Patients With Type 2 Diabetes: An unmet challenge for cardiovascular
risk reduction -
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi.../full/30/3/479

"CONCLUSIONS—Nearly half of the patients in this large primary care
cohort had low HDL cholesterol levels. In contrast to frequent statin
use, few patients were prescribed currently available medicines to raise
HDL cholesterol. Low HDL cholesterol represents a highly prevalent and
potentially modifiable risk factor for CVD prevention in type 2 diabetes."

There have been more recent Medscape articles that dealt with attempts
to reduce flushing from niacin, one of the most effective therapies for
raising HDL.

> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/496907
>
> http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/mod...file=article&s...
>
> http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/512941_1
>
> Regards
> Old Al"
>
> Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.

Old Al consistently made good post.

Frank

----------
Lipid panel does fluctuate some.
.......3/11/2008..12/11/07..7/06/07
TG... 42 MG/DL.... 73...... 40
HDL.. 65 MG/DL.... 64...... 72
LDL.. 69 MG/DL.... 92...... 84
TC...142 MG/DL....171......164

Fish oil 4 grams/day, high fiber, low dose statin, and low-moderate
carbing approach works for me.

On Jun 25, 11:36*am, Jefferson <Jeffer...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Alan S wrote:
>
> (snipped)
>
>
>
> > And a specific post on Old Al's cholesterol-lowering
> > methods:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/2sspnu
> > or
> > Message-ID: <4qq6spFnkln...@individual.net>
> (snipped)
> > More than a sane person would want to know about
> > triglycerides, *HDL and heart disease:
>
> >http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/reprint/23/11/1679
>
> Once openning the above article as an abstract there is a menu on the
> righthand side for other articles citing in scholar.google as well as
> similar article on the same topic. There was not much citing on the one
> hand but a fairly good list of articles on the same topic.
>
> The following article was a study of good size and focuses on the
> denominator of the TG/HDL ratio.
>
> Prevalence and Treatment of Low HDL Cholesterol Among Primary Care
> Patients With Type 2 Diabetes: An unmet challenge for cardiovascular
> risk reduction -http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/30/3/479
>
> "CONCLUSIONS—Nearly half of the patients in this large primary care
> cohort had low HDL cholesterol levels. In contrast to frequent statin
> use, few patients were prescribed currently available medicines to raise
> HDL cholesterol. Low HDL cholesterol represents a highly prevalent and
> potentially modifiable risk factor for CVD prevention in type 2 diabetes."
>
> There have been more recent Medscape articles that dealt with attempts
> to reduce flushing from niacin, one of the most effective therapies for
> raising HDL.
>
> >http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/496907
>
> >http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/mod...file=article&s...
>
> >http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/512941_1
>
> > Regards
> > Old Al"
>
> > Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
>
> Old Al consistently made good post.
>
> Frank
>
> ----------
> Lipid panel does fluctuate some.
> ......3/11/2008..12/11/07..7/06/07
> TG... 42 MG/DL.... 73...... 40
> HDL.. 65 MG/DL.... 64...... 72
> LDL.. 69 MG/DL.... 92...... 84
> TC...142 MG/DL....171......164
>
> Fish oil 4 grams/day, high fiber, low dose statin, and low-moderate
> carbing approach works for me.

What brand of fish oil do you reccommend? I've decided to start
supplementing with it.

John C.

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:36:15 -0400, Jefferson <Jefferson@comcast.net>
wrote:

>Old Al consistently made good post.

Indeed. And I knew if anyone could lay his hands on the right post
'twould be Alan.

And if anyone could add to it it would be you.

Thanks all!

John C. wrote:
> On Jun 25, 11:36 am, Jefferson <Jeffer...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>Fish oil 4 grams/day, high fiber, low dose statin, and low-moderate
>>carbing approach works for me.
>
>
> What brand of fish oil do you reccommend? I've decided to start
> supplementing with it.
>
> John C.

I use the cheap stuff from Wal-Mart. Since fish oil does not give me
the burps I don't need the coated variety. Most fish oil is from
Menhaden, a fish low on the food chain, but a consumer of algae
which produce the EPA and DHA.

Frank

"Jefferson" <Jefferson@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4NednQyX8v6pUP_VnZ2dnUVZ_s3inZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>> What brand of fish oil do you reccommend? I've decided to start
>> supplementing with it.
>
> I use the cheap stuff from Wal-Mart. Since fish oil does not give me the
> burps I don't need the coated variety. Most fish oil is from Menhaden, a
> fish low on the food chain, but a consumer of algae
> which produce the EPA and DHA.
>

I get fish oil capsules at Whole Foods, or Safeway or maybe Giant. They're
sort of jelly-like capsules that get a bit soft if they sit out in the dish
during the day. They don't give me any problems.
bj

"Bill Hileman" <discgolfdad@gEEmail.com> wrote in message
news:qT67k.9349$LL4.8888@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>I was diagnosed as T2 in May of 2007. The VA apparently has a policy where
>if you are diagnosed as T2, you automatically get put on statins, even if
>your cholesterol numbers are already low. Mine have always been low, must
>be genetic or something. I don't recall ever having a number 100 or
>higher.
>
> My wife, the worry-wart that she can often be, heard anecdotal info from
> on-line friends about the evils of statins, and confirmed them by
> googling. She asked me to stop taking the statins, and I complied. I was
> instead prescribed some vitamin (which eludes me - I know it's not niacin
> but something like it, some other B vitamin?) and was on that for a while.
> My numbers expectedly went up (slightly). My doctor wanted me back on the
> statins. I explained that my wife mentioned, among other things, danger
> to liver function. She explained that my liver, according to blood tests
> at least, was quite healthy, and the only danger there was if you had
> liver problems to begin with. So I went back on the statins.
>
> I started feeling scatter-brained. I was getting clumsy. For example, In
> my entire life, I've never poked myself in the eye trying to put my
> glasses on, then one day it happened three times. I went to cook my sons
> some Mac 'n Cheese and pushed the wrong burner button on the stove, which
> shattered a glass plate that was on that particular burner. I was
> forgetting appointments (I never do that). I was seeming to forget
> everything.
>
> The next time I saw the doc, I explained my worries with her. She decided
> to do a routine memory test (of sorts). I seemed to handle most of it
> okay, but the strange thing that stuck with me was she asked me to count
> backwards from 100 by seven. Now I've always been sharp at math, but I
> got lost. Completely lost and and couldn't seem to do it. She shrugged it
> off and had me count backwards by five or some easier number, which I was
> able to handle. The idea that it might be the statins did not occur to me
> at that time.
>
> I should probably mention that when I went back on statins, I did so
> because my doc had asked me to, and I didn't bother to tell my wife (since
> I knew what her reaction would be). I'd been back on them for about three
> months, when she apparently figured it out and confronted me. She
> reminded me that I'd been complaining about my memory and depression, etc.
> She doesn't even know that I was suicidal about a month ago, but she
> mentioned the suicidal symptoms reported by some people.
>
> So, I decided I'd better google some. Google toolbar has this neat
> feature where when you start entering a phrase, it offers completed
> phrases. When I typed "simvastatin" one of the suggested searches was
> "simvastatin memory" so I selected that. Apparently quite a few people
> are reporting memory problems with statins. One article mentioned that
> one man who had the problem to a severe degree lost his symptoms after
> stopping the medication for one month. That pretty much settled it for
> me.
>
> I've only been off the statins for about three days, but I hope I start
> feeling like my old self again.
>
> Since my cholesterol numbers are low anyway, I think the risk of what the
> things appear to be doing to my brain is just not worth it.
>
> Has anyone else in here noticed memory/depression/clumsyness problem while
> on statins?
>
> Bill "Frisbee" Hileman
>
I'm on simvastatin and have noticed problems with clumsiness and walking
slowly, but nothing in particular with memory problems.

John Williamson wrote:
>> Wasn't Old Al one who had problems with statins? ISTR he had a list of
>> other things you could do to improve your LDL.

I could well be wrong, but my memory (impaired only by age)
says that he was a defender of statins when they were
criticized by others. But not a fanatical defender.

--
Wes Groleau

Armchair Activism: http://www.breakthechain.org/armchair.html

Alan S quoted:
[snip stuff saying nothing about statins]
>
> Regards
> Old Al"

So maybe I was wrong.....

--
Wes Groleau
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ A UNIX signature isn't a return address, it's the ASCII equivalent ^
^ of a black velvet clown painting. It's a rectangle of carets ^
^ surrounding a quote from a literary giant of weeniedom like ^
^ Heinlein or Dr. Who. ^
^ -- Chris Maeda ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Wes Groleau wrote in message ...
>John Williamson wrote:
>>> Wasn't Old Al one who had problems with statins? ISTR he had a
list of
>>> other things you could do to improve your LDL.
>
>I could well be wrong, but my memory (impaired only by age)
>says that he was a defender of statins when they were
>criticized by others. But not a fanatical defender.
>
>--
>Wes Groleau


I could be wrong, but I think he was more of a defender of using
insulin to bring numbers into range for type 2's.

Cheri

In article <vdR8k.12999$3F5.904@bignews2.bellsouth.net>,
"Robert Miles" <robertmiles@bellsouthNOSPAM.net> wrote:

> I'm on simvastatin and have noticed problems with clumsiness and walking
> slowly, but nothing in particular with memory problems.

That you remember? ;-)

Priscilla

Priscilla H. Ballou <vze23t8n@verizon.net> wrote:
: In article <vdR8k.12999$3F5.904@bignews2.bellsouth.net>,
: "Robert Miles" <robertmiles@bellsouthNOSPAM.net> wrote:

: &g