Thiamine lowers blood glucose in early T2DM by quite alot

[[email protected] |]

This is apparently working for me though I
want a month's worth of numbers before I'll
be fairly sure plus I am using a much larger dose
with a faster bigger result.


Eur J Nutr. 2011 Mar;50(2):145-9.
Epub 2010 Jul 21.

Effect of thiamine administration on metabolic profile,
cytokines and inflammatory markers in drug-naïve
patients with type 2 diabetes.

González-Ortiz M, Martínez-Abundis E, Robles-Cervantes JA,
Ramírez-Ramírez V, Ramos-Zavala MG.

Cardiovascular Research Unit,
Physiology Department,
Health Science University Center,
University of Guadalajara and Medical Research
Unit in Clinical Epidemiology, Specialties Hospital,
Medical Unit of High Specialty, West National
Medical Center, Mexican Institute of Social Security,
Montes Urales 1409, 44340,
Guadalajara, Colonia Independencia, Mexico,
[email protected].

PURPOSE:
To evaluate the effect of thiamine administration on
metabolic profile, cytokines and inflammatory markers
in drug-naïve patients with type 2 diabetes
mellitus (T2DM).

METHODS:
A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled,
pilot-scale clinical trial was carried out in 24 patients
with T2DM. Twelve subjects received thiamine
orally (150 mg), once daily during a fasting state
for 1 month. An additional 12 patients (control group)
were given placebo for the same period of time. Before
and after the intervention, fasting glucose, A1C, creatinine,
total cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol,
low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, triglycerides,
very low-density lipoprotein, high-sensitive C-reactive
protein, interleukin 6, tumor necrosis factor-alpha,
leptin and adiponectin levels were estimated.
Wilcoxon's signed-rank and Mann-Whitney U test
were used for statistical analyses.

RESULTS:
There were significant decreases in glucose
(6.7 ± 1.0 mmol/l vs.6.0 + -1.0 p=0.024) before and after the
intervention, respectively, and leptin concentrations (32.9 ± 13.3
ng/ml vs. 26.9 +/-12.8 ng/ml p = 0.027) before
and after the intervention, respectively, with
thiamine administration. There were no changes with the
rest of the measurements.

CONCLUSIONS:
Thiamine administration for 1 month
decreased glucose and leptin
concentrations in drug-naïve patients with T2DM.


PMID: 20652275 [PubMed - in process]


I suppose I'll be buying a kilogram of thiamine
next.............................................. ..................Trig

[[email protected] |]

On Mar 25, 12:29*am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is apparently working for me though I
> want a month's worth of numbers before I'll
> be fairly sure plus I am using a much larger dose
> with a faster bigger result.
>
> Eur J Nutr. 2011 Mar;50(2):145-9.
> Epub 2010 Jul 21.
>
> Effect of thiamine administration on metabolic profile,
> cytokines and inflammatory markers in drug-naïve
> patients with type 2 diabetes.
>
> González-Ortiz M, Martínez-Abundis E, Robles-Cervantes JA,
> Ramírez-Ramírez V, Ramos-Zavala MG.
>
> Cardiovascular Research Unit,
> Physiology Department,
> Health Science University Center,
> University of Guadalajara and Medical Research
> Unit in Clinical Epidemiology, Specialties Hospital,
> Medical Unit of High Specialty, West National
> Medical Center, Mexican Institute of Social Security,
> Montes Urales 1409, 44340,
> Guadalajara, Colonia Independencia, Mexico,
> u...@prodigy.net.mx.
>
> PURPOSE:
> To evaluate the effect of thiamine administration on
> metabolic profile, *cytokines and inflammatory markers
> in drug-naïve patients with type 2 diabetes
> mellitus (T2DM).
>
> METHODS:
> A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled,
> pilot-scale clinical trial was carried out in 24 patients
> with T2DM. Twelve subjects received thiamine
> orally (150 mg), once daily during a fasting state
> for 1 month. An additional 12 *patients (control group)
> were given placebo for the same period of time. Before
> and after the intervention, fasting glucose, A1C, creatinine,
> total cholesterol, high-density lipoprotein cholesterol,
> low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, triglycerides,
> very low-density lipoprotein, high-sensitive C-reactive
> protein, interleukin 6, tumor necrosis factor-alpha,
> leptin and adiponectin levels were estimated.
> Wilcoxon's signed-rank and Mann-Whitney U test
> were used for statistical analyses.
>
> RESULTS:
> There were significant decreases in glucose
> (6.7 ± 1.0 mmol/l vs.6.0 + -1.0 p=0.024) before and after the
> intervention, respectively, and leptin concentrations (32.9 ± 13.3
> ng/ml vs. 26.9 +/-12.8 ng/ml p = 0.027) before
> and after the intervention, respectively, with
> thiamine administration. There were no changes with the
> rest of the measurements.
>
> CONCLUSIONS:
> Thiamine administration for 1 month
> decreased glucose and leptin
> concentrations in drug-naïve patients with T2DM.
>
> PMID: 20652275 [PubMed - in process]
>
> I suppose I'll be buying a kilogram of thiamine
> next.............................................. ..................Trig

Current BG is 93 with only 500 mg of B-1 on board.
The local prices for vitamin B-1 are shocking are many
of the OTC meds. Wallymart is even getting greedy
such that even BiMart has better prices on some products.

Nice to below 100 but I must keep restricting the carbs.

can you say thiamine if you can't.........well.............Trig

[Chris Hogg]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 20:43:37 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]
|" <[email protected]> wrote:


>Current BG is 93 with only 500 mg of B-1 on board.
>The local prices for vitamin B-1 are shocking are many
>of the OTC meds. Wallymart is even getting greedy
>such that even BiMart has better prices on some products.
>
>Nice to below 100 but I must keep restricting the carbs.
>
>can you say thiamine if you can't.........well.............Trig

Are you taking thiamine or benfotiamine? Thiamine is water soluble,
and quite a lot goes straight through and down the pan AIUI. Benfo is
fat soluble and much more efficiently used, again AIUI.

--

Chris

T2 DX'd 2002, D&E, HbA1c 5.6, BMI 21
Lipids:Tot 4.5 HDL 1.6 LDL 2.5 Tri 0.8

[[email protected] |]

On Mar 26, 12:56*am, Chris Hogg <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Mar 2011 20:43:37 -0700 (PDT), "trigonometry1...@gmail.com
>
> |" <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Current BG is 93 with only 500 mg of B-1 on board.
> >The local prices for vitamin B-1 are shocking are many
> >of the OTC meds. Wallymart is even getting greedy
> >such that even BiMart has better prices on some products.
>
> >Nice to below 100 but I must keep restricting the carbs.
>
> >can you say thiamine if you can't.........well.............Trig
>
> Are you taking thiamine or benfotiamine? Thiamine is water soluble,
> and quite a lot goes straight through and down the pan AIUI. Benfo is
> fat soluble and much more efficiently used, again AIUI.
>
> --
>
> Chris
>
> T2 DX'd 2002, D&E, HbA1c 5.6, BMI 21
> Lipids:Tot 4.5 HDL 1.6 LDL 2.5 Tri 0.8

Both. And the old form apparently has it own special merits
when it comes to BG. Don't get me wrong, I think benfotiamine
is great. It is a convention that it goes straight through the
true story maybe a bit more complex even if mainly true.
As an example the vitamin the body stores the longest is often (or
perhaps nearly always) a specific
water soluble one granted not B-1. Or take vitamin E for
years there were comments in the lit that the alpha
form was the only real game, well that has shown to be wrong
and I suspect will understood to even wronger as the
decades crank by. Distrust accepted tRVtHs, I say.

It maybe I only need 150 mgs for the improvement, but
I've taking been 50 mgs of thiamine daily for decades.
But the apparent improvement didn't take a month
for me like reported in the study above,
perhaps this was true because of the dose size
or all the other stuff
I take or maybe it is just a fluke of some sort. Perhaps
the drop in BG is illness related though the illness
started days later apparently. Or perhaps in the study
it was because they didn't look earlier for the improvement?

Benfotiamine doesn't affect my FBG that I know though
it apparently helped with tingling I starting to get toward end of
2009. Again I used a shotgun of interventions and exercise.

Apparently, apparently. Anyway I am hoping for a clear view
on this subject with time. How hard is it to try? It looks pretty
safe to me. I can get a full kilogram of B-1 for 50 dollars so
I am not worried about the cost of my piss. If it works I should
be covered for 2 to 5 years depending on dose.
And extra nickel (5 cents) in my urine per day at the rate of
~one gram per day including the mononitrate.

Just my 5 cents on the topic.....................................Trig

[[email protected] |]

<snip>
> And extra nickel (5 cents) in my urine per day at the rate of
> ~one gram per day including the mononitrate.
>
> Just my 5 cents on the topic.....................................Trig

Now what? I checked my BG and it's 76 mg/dL really.
That is a number I've never seen before!!!
And yes the water soluble form of B-1 is on board.
I haven't even been thinking about the bottom
end of the range of normal. It seems it's time
to start.

Tomorrow I'll take a long walk or a short bicycle
ride.............................................. ....................Trig

[Ellen K.]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Current BG is 93 with only 500 mg of B-1 on board.
The local prices for vitamin B-1 are shocking are many
of the OTC meds. Wallymart is even getting greedy
such that even BiMart has better prices on some products.

Nice to below 100 but I must keep restricting the carbs.

can you say thiamine if you can't.........well.............Trig

===========================

I buy my supplements from vitacost.com or koshervitamins.com. Vitacost is
cheaper but sometimes they don't have a kosher version of something I want.

[[email protected] |]

On Mar 26, 9:59*pm, "Ellen K." <firstinitiallastn...@dslextreme.com>
wrote:
> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> Current BG is 93 with only 500 mg of B-1 on board.
> The local prices for vitamin B-1 are shocking are many
> of the OTC meds. Wallymart is even getting greedy
> such that even BiMart has better prices on some products.
>
> Nice to below 100 but I must keep restricting the carbs.
>
> can you say thiamine if you can't.........well.............Trig
>
> ===========================
>
> I buy my supplements from vitacost.com or koshervitamins.com. *Vitacostis
> cheaper but sometimes they don't have a kosher version of something I want.

For bulk vitamins and AAs I go with beyond-a-century.
Back in the day it was LEF.org by mail order.
I still use Puritan's Pride and I've been known use Vitacost.
There maybe another company I used last year for the super
high gamma vitamin E. For herbs I use Rose mountain in
Oregon.

I think in the spirit of experiment, I should drop the thiamine
dose back to 50 mg and then watch the BG. To see if it
holds or goes up again. Anyway we can know exercise
isn't my golden bullet though it make me feel really good
and is likely good in lower fatty deposit in the tissues.

The illogical part of my mind is unwilling to drop the thiamine
but to be sure doing so will certainly help confirm the result at
less for me. Golden coin of the realm, man!!! So I must try the
previous dose level again!
Anyway it will keep from buying some vastly over-priced
form in the local health food store or from the pin-heads
at Wallymart or the Rot-Aid Drug Store. (I don't mean the workers, I
mean the upper level management and buyers.)

Step by step so we go but at least thiamine is pretty
safe.............................................. ............................Trig

[[email protected]]

On Mar 26, 7:48*pm, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > And extra nickel (5 cents) in my urine per day at the rate of
> > ~one gram per day including the mononitrate.
>
> > Just my 5 cents on the topic.....................................Trig
>
> Now what? I checked my BG and it's 76 mg/dL really.
> That is a number I've never seen before!!!
> And yes the water soluble form of B-1 is on board.
> I haven't even been thinking about the bottom
> end of the range of normal. It seems it's time
> to start.
>
> Tomorrow I'll take a long walk or a short bicycle
> ride.............................................. ....................Trig

Trig,

Congradulations on your findings, big time!!!

If these results hold it will be are very, very significant.
Please keep us informed on your readings everyday. This can be huge.

My only caution is that there is some data that shows thiamine can
fuel cancer growth. Undetermined how true this is.
See refs below:

Randy

//**********************
Thiamine supplementation to cancer patients: a double edged sword.
Boros LG, Brandes JL, Lee WN, Cascante M, Puigjaner J, Revesz E, Bray
TM, Schirmer WJ, Melvin WS.
Ohio State University College of Medicine, Department of Surgery,
Columbus 43210, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
The objectives of this review are to (a) explain the mechanism by
which thiamine (vitamin B1) promotes nucleic acid ribose synthesis and
tumor cell proliferation via the nonoxidative transketolase (TK)
pathway; (b) estimate the thiamine intake of cancer patients and (c)
provide background information and to develop guidelines for
alternative treatments with antithiamine transketolase inhibitors in
the clinical setting. Clinical and experimental data demonstrate
increased thiamine utilization of human tumors and its interference
with experimental chemotherapy. Analysis of RNA ribose indicates that
glucose carbons contribute to over 90% of ribose synthesis in cultured
cervix und pancreatic carcinoma cells and that ribose is synthesized
primarily through the thiamine dependent TK pathway (> 70%).
Antithiamine compounds significantly inhibit nucleic acid synthesis
and tumor cell proliferation in vitro and in vivo in several tumor
models. The medical literature reveals little information regarding
the role of the thiamine dependent TK reaction in tumor cell ribose
production which is a central process in de novo nucleic acid
synthesis and the salvage pathways for purines. Consequently, current
thiamine administration protocols oversupply thiamine by 200% to
20,000% of the recommended dietary allowance, because it is considered
harmless and needed by cancer patients. The thiamine dependent TK
pathway is the central avenue which supplies ribose phosphate for
nucleic acids in tumors and excessive thiamine supplementation maybe
responsible for failed therapeutic attempts to terminate cancer cell
proliferation. Limited administration of thiamine and concomitant
treatment with transketolase inhibitors is a more rational approach to
treat cancer.
PMID: 9568183 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Population thiamine status and varying cancer rates between western,
Asian and African countries.
Boros LG.
UCLA School of Medicine, Harbor-UCLA Research and Education Institute,
Torrance 90502, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
The role of food supplements in the form of vitamins has not been
extensively investigated in relation to varying cancer rates between
populations of different geographical regions. New data indicate that
thiamine (vitamin B1), a common food supplement in Western food
products, is directly involved in nucleic acid ribose synthesis of
tumor cells in its biologically activated form through the non-
oxidative transketolase catalyzed pentose cycle reaction. Whether
thiamine plays a role in increased cancer rates in the Western World
by enhancing tumor cell proliferation, while increased consumption of
thiaminase rich food limiting thiamine availability protects against
common malignancies in Asia and Africa has not been evaluated. In the
Western World, thiamine is a popular vitamin supplement in the form of
tablets and it is also added to basic food items such as milled flour,
cereals, peanut butter, refreshment drinks and pastas. On the
contrary, thiaminase, the natural thiamine-degrading enzyme, is
abundantly present in raw and fermented fish, certain vegetables and
roasted insects consumed primarily in Africa and Asia. Excess thiamine
supplementation in common food products may contribute to the
increased cancer rates of the Western World.
PMID: 10928186 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Role of thiamin (vitamin B-1) and transketolase in tumor cell
proliferation.
Cascante M, Centelles JJ, Veech RL, Lee WN, Boros LG.
Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Institut
d'Investigacions Biomediques August Pi i Sunyer, University of
Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain.
Abstract
Metabolic control analysis predicts that stimulators of transketolase
enzyme synthesis such as thiamin (vitamin B-1) support a high rate of
nucleic acid ribose synthesis necessary for tumor cell survival,
chemotherapy resistance, and proliferation. Metabolic control analysis
also predicts that transketolase inhibitor drugs will have the
opposite effect on tumor cells. This may have important implications
in the nutrition and future treatment of patients with cancer.
PMID: 10890024 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Role of thiamin (vitamin B-1) and transketolase in tumor cell
proliferation.
Cascante M, Centelles JJ, Veech RL, Lee WN, Boros LG.
Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Institut
d'Investigacions Biomediques August Pi i Sunyer, University of
Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain.
Abstract
Metabolic control analysis predicts that stimulators of transketolase
enzyme synthesis such as thiamin (vitamin B-1) support a high rate of
nucleic acid ribose synthesis necessary for tumor cell survival,
chemotherapy resistance, and proliferation. Metabolic control analysis
also predicts that transketolase inhibitor drugs will have the
opposite effect on tumor cells. This may have important implications
in the nutrition and future treatment of patients with cancer.
PMID: 10890024 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Ellen K.]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Mar 26, 7:48 pm, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > And extra nickel (5 cents) in my urine per day at the rate of
> > ~one gram per day including the mononitrate.
>
> > Just my 5 cents on the topic.....................................Trig
>
> Now what? I checked my BG and it's 76 mg/dL really.
> That is a number I've never seen before!!!
> And yes the water soluble form of B-1 is on board.
> I haven't even been thinking about the bottom
> end of the range of normal. It seems it's time
> to start.
>
> Tomorrow I'll take a long walk or a short bicycle
> ride.............................................. ....................Trig

Trig,

Congradulations on your findings, big time!!!

If these results hold it will be are very, very significant.
Please keep us informed on your readings everyday. This can be huge.

My only caution is that there is some data that shows thiamine can
fuel cancer growth. Undetermined how true this is.
See refs below:

Randy

//**********************
Thiamine supplementation to cancer patients: a double edged sword.
Boros LG, Brandes JL, Lee WN, Cascante M, Puigjaner J, Revesz E, Bray
TM, Schirmer WJ, Melvin WS.
Ohio State University College of Medicine, Department of Surgery,
Columbus 43210, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
The objectives of this review are to (a) explain the mechanism by
which thiamine (vitamin B1) promotes nucleic acid ribose synthesis and
tumor cell proliferation via the nonoxidative transketolase (TK)
pathway; (b) estimate the thiamine intake of cancer patients and (c)
provide background information and to develop guidelines for
alternative treatments with antithiamine transketolase inhibitors in
the clinical setting. Clinical and experimental data demonstrate
increased thiamine utilization of human tumors and its interference
with experimental chemotherapy. Analysis of RNA ribose indicates that
glucose carbons contribute to over 90% of ribose synthesis in cultured
cervix und pancreatic carcinoma cells and that ribose is synthesized
primarily through the thiamine dependent TK pathway (> 70%).
Antithiamine compounds significantly inhibit nucleic acid synthesis
and tumor cell proliferation in vitro and in vivo in several tumor
models. The medical literature reveals little information regarding
the role of the thiamine dependent TK reaction in tumor cell ribose
production which is a central process in de novo nucleic acid
synthesis and the salvage pathways for purines. Consequently, current
thiamine administration protocols oversupply thiamine by 200% to
20,000% of the recommended dietary allowance, because it is considered
harmless and needed by cancer patients. The thiamine dependent TK
pathway is the central avenue which supplies ribose phosphate for
nucleic acids in tumors and excessive thiamine supplementation maybe
responsible for failed therapeutic attempts to terminate cancer cell
proliferation. Limited administration of thiamine and concomitant
treatment with transketolase inhibitors is a more rational approach to
treat cancer.
PMID: 9568183 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



Population thiamine status and varying cancer rates between western,
Asian and African countries.
Boros LG.
UCLA School of Medicine, Harbor-UCLA Research and Education Institute,
Torrance 90502, USA. [email protected]
Abstract
The role of food supplements in the form of vitamins has not been
extensively investigated in relation to varying cancer rates between
populations of different geographical regions. New data indicate that
thiamine (vitamin B1), a common food supplement in Western food
products, is directly involved in nucleic acid ribose synthesis of
tumor cells in its biologically activated form through the non-
oxidative transketolase catalyzed pentose cycle reaction. Whether
thiamine plays a role in increased cancer rates in the Western World
by enhancing tumor cell proliferation, while increased consumption of
thiaminase rich food limiting thiamine availability protects against
common malignancies in Asia and Africa has not been evaluated. In the
Western World, thiamine is a popular vitamin supplement in the form of
tablets and it is also added to basic food items such as milled flour,
cereals, peanut butter, refreshment drinks and pastas. On the
contrary, thiaminase, the natural thiamine-degrading enzyme, is
abundantly present in raw and fermented fish, certain vegetables and
roasted insects consumed primarily in Africa and Asia. Excess thiamine
supplementation in common food products may contribute to the
increased cancer rates of the Western World.
PMID: 10928186 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Role of thiamin (vitamin B-1) and transketolase in tumor cell
proliferation.
Cascante M, Centelles JJ, Veech RL, Lee WN, Boros LG.
Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Institut
d'Investigacions Biomediques August Pi i Sunyer, University of
Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain.
Abstract
Metabolic control analysis predicts that stimulators of transketolase
enzyme synthesis such as thiamin (vitamin B-1) support a high rate of
nucleic acid ribose synthesis necessary for tumor cell survival,
chemotherapy resistance, and proliferation. Metabolic control analysis
also predicts that transketolase inhibitor drugs will have the
opposite effect on tumor cells. This may have important implications
in the nutrition and future treatment of patients with cancer.
PMID: 10890024 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Role of thiamin (vitamin B-1) and transketolase in tumor cell
proliferation.
Cascante M, Centelles JJ, Veech RL, Lee WN, Boros LG.
Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Institut
d'Investigacions Biomediques August Pi i Sunyer, University of
Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain.
Abstract
Metabolic control analysis predicts that stimulators of transketolase
enzyme synthesis such as thiamin (vitamin B-1) support a high rate of
nucleic acid ribose synthesis necessary for tumor cell survival,
chemotherapy resistance, and proliferation. Metabolic control analysis
also predicts that transketolase inhibitor drugs will have the
opposite effect on tumor cells. This may have important implications
in the nutrition and future treatment of patients with cancer.
PMID: 10890024 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

===========================

It looks like these studies are all saying thiamine helps tumor cells
*proliferate*, which I think is different than causing tumors to *appear*.

[[email protected]]

Ellen Wrote:
> It looks like these studies are all saying thiamine helps tumor cells
> *proliferate*, which I think is different than causing tumors to *appear*.- Hide quoted text -

I didn't say otherwise.

Here's what I said:
Quote:
"My only caution is that there is some data that shows thiamine can
fuel cancer growth"

Since it's accepted that many might have cancer cells do we want to
fuel its growth?
I'm stating this as a caution, cause I'm truely excited about Trig's
finding.

One of the papers suggested that the low rate of certain cancers in
3rd world countries is due to dietary anti- thiamine substances in the
diet

Remember your taking a vitamin 10,000% increase from the RDA.

Randy

[[email protected]]

On Mar 27, 12:24*am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 26, 9:59*pm, "Ellen K." <firstinitiallastn...@dslextreme.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:[email protected]....
>
> > Current BG is 93 with only 500 mg of B-1 on board.
> > The local prices for vitamin B-1 are shocking are many
> > of the OTC meds. Wallymart is even getting greedy
> > such that even BiMart has better prices on some products.
>
> > Nice to below 100 but I must keep restricting the carbs.
>
> > can you say thiamine if you can't.........well.............Trig
>
> > ===========================
>
> > I buy my supplements from vitacost.com or koshervitamins.com. *Vitacost is
> > cheaper but sometimes they don't have a kosher version of something I want.
>
> For bulk vitamins and AAs I go with beyond-a-century.
> Back in the day it was LEF.org by mail order.
> I still use Puritan's Pride and I've been known use Vitacost.
> There maybe another company I used last year for the super
> high gamma vitamin E. For herbs I use Rose mountain in
> Oregon.
>
> I think in the spirit of experiment, I should drop the thiamine
> dose back to 50 mg and then watch the BG. To see if it
> holds or goes up again. Anyway we can know exercise
> isn't my golden bullet though it make me feel really good
> and is likely good in lower fatty deposit in the tissues.
>
> The illogical part of my mind is unwilling to drop the thiamine
> but to be sure doing so will certainly help confirm the result at
> less for me. Golden coin of the realm, man!!! So I must try the
> previous dose level again!
> Anyway it will keep from buying some vastly over-priced
> form in the local health food store or from the pin-heads
> at Wallymart or the Rot-Aid Drug Store. (I don't mean the workers, I
> mean the upper level management and buyers.)
>
> Step by step so we go but at least thiamine is pretty
> safe.............................................. ..........................*..Trig- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Trig,

Here's a discussion of the thiamine/benfothiamine subject from a
fellow I"ve got alot of respect for.
http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic...cer-risk-quit/

In fact it was from him some years ago that I learned of this
connection.

I am by no means downgrading your finding, but the cancer connection
is a bit worrysome.

Randy
Randy

[W. Baker]

[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
: >
: > Now what? I checked my BG and it's 76 mg/dL really.
: > That is a number I've never seen before!!!
: > And yes the water soluble form of B-1 is on board.
: > I haven't even been thinking about the bottom
: > end of the range of normal. It seems it's time
: > to start.
: >
: > Tomorrow I'll take a long walk or a short bicycle
: > ride.............................................. ....................Trig

: Trig,

: Congradulations on your findings, big time!!!

: If these results hold it will be are very, very significant.
: Please keep us informed on your readings everyday. This can be huge.

: My only caution is that there is some data that shows thiamine can
: fuel cancer growth. Undetermined how true this is.
: See refs below:

: Randy

I think, the way things are going, there is nothing tht doesn't cause
cancer somehow, except salt. that will get you before you get the
cancer:-) This was my son's thought when he was in High School. I am
beginning to think he was right:-)

Wendy

[[email protected]]

Wendy Wrote:
> I think, the way things are going, there is nothing tht doesn't cause
> cancer somehow, except salt. *that will get you before you get the
> cancer:-) *This was my son's thought when he was in High School. *I am
> beginning to think he was right:-)


That really a simplification that just reduces the need to think.
This is not just a case that something causes cancer somehow, but
evidence of a direct link.

I don't think food additives cause cancer but cigarettes are a
different matter. Both are said to be involved but the evidence is
weak to nil for food additives but substainial with smoking. It's a
matter of looking at the evidence for each individual case, not just a
case of saying nothing causes cancer because some folks say
everything does.

I really really hope thiamine works like Trig reported becasue this is
a huge finding and Trig deserves to have a plack in his honor posted
somewhere, but surely the cancer link should be part of the
discussion. Remember we are no longer using this stuff to conpensate
for a nutritional lack but as a drug is huge doses.

Randy

[Ellen K.]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> Ellen Wrote:
>> It looks like these studies are all saying thiamine helps tumor cells
>> *proliferate*, which I think is different than causing tumors to
>> *appear*.- Hide quoted text -
>
> I didn't say otherwise.
>

I just wanted to clarify. Many abstracts are dense with scientific jargon
and easily misunderstood as a result.

> Here's what I said:
> Quote:
> "My only caution is that there is some data that shows thiamine can
> fuel cancer growth"
>
> Since it's accepted that many might have cancer cells do we want to
> fuel its growth?
> I'm stating this as a caution, cause I'm truely excited about Trig's
> finding.
>
> One of the papers suggested that the low rate of certain cancers in
> 3rd world countries is due to dietary anti- thiamine substances in the
> diet

I read it as more of a question than a statement, suggesting that research
be done on this.

>
> Remember your taking a vitamin 10,000% increase from the RDA.
>
> Randy
>

150 vs 1.5 isn't a 10,000% increase, it's an increase of about 99%.
The math is (150-1.5) / 1.5.

[Ellen K.]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Wendy Wrote:
> I think, the way things are going, there is nothing tht doesn't cause
> cancer somehow, except salt. that will get you before you get the
> cancer:-) This was my son's thought when he was in High School. I am
> beginning to think he was right:-)


That really a simplification that just reduces the need to think.
This is not just a case that something causes cancer somehow, but
evidence of a direct link.

+++++++++++++++++++++
A moment ago you denied saying it caused cancer when in fact the studies say
it appears to cause cancer cells to proliferate.
--------------------------------

I don't think food additives cause cancer but cigarettes are a
different matter. Both are said to be involved but the evidence is
weak to nil for food additives but substainial with smoking. It's a
matter of looking at the evidence for each individual case, not just a
case of saying nothing causes cancer because some folks say
everything does.

I really really hope thiamine works like Trig reported becasue this is
a huge finding and Trig deserves to have a plack in his honor posted
somewhere, but surely the cancer link should be part of the
discussion. Remember we are no longer using this stuff to conpensate
for a nutritional lack but as a drug is huge doses.

Randy

[Chris Malcolm]

Ellen K. <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]..
>> Ellen Wrote:
>>> It looks like these studies are all saying thiamine helps tumor cells
>>> *proliferate*, which I think is different than causing tumors to
>>> *appear*.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> I didn't say otherwise.

> I just wanted to clarify. Many abstracts are dense with scientific jargon
> and easily misunderstood as a result.

>> Here's what I said:
>> Quote:
>> "My only caution is that there is some data that shows thiamine can
>> fuel cancer growth"
>>
>> Since it's accepted that many might have cancer cells do we want to
>> fuel its growth?
>> I'm stating this as a caution, cause I'm truely excited about Trig's
>> finding.
>>
>> One of the papers suggested that the low rate of certain cancers in
>> 3rd world countries is due to dietary anti- thiamine substances in the
>> diet

> I read it as more of a question than a statement, suggesting that research
> be done on this.

>>
>> Remember your taking a vitamin 10,000% increase from the RDA.
>>
>> Randy
>>

> 150 vs 1.5 isn't a 10,000% increase, it's an increase of about 99%.
> The math is (150-1.5) / 1.5.

You forgot to multiply by 100 to turn it into a percentage :-) An
increase of 99% is roughly doubling something.

--
Chris Malcolm

[[email protected]]

Ellen Wrote:
> 150 *vs 1.5 *isn't a 10,000% increase, it's an increase of about 99%.
> The math is (150-1.5) / 1.5.

No, it's (150 - 1.5)/1.5 + 2 zeros added to result =9,000%. I was off
by 1000%, you were off by 8001%.

By your calculation it's impossible for anything to be over 100%.

Randy

[[email protected]]

Ellen Wrote:
> +++++++++++++++++++++
> A moment ago you denied saying it caused cancer when in fact the studies say
> it appears to cause cancer cells to proliferate.
> --------------------------------
I was responding to Wendy's generic about "all sorts of things being
accused of causing cancer". My examples were food additives and
smoking.

But - back to thiamine, are you saying that the data are not
concerning. Is so why?
Statins use at levels perscribed have a lot more study that thiamine
at levels at 10X the RDA.

Randy





>
> I don't think food additives cause cancer but cigarettes are a
> different matter. Both are said to be involved but the evidence is
> weak to nil for food additives but substainial with smoking. It's a
> matter of looking at the evidence for each individual case, not just a
> case of saying nothing *causes cancer because some folks say
> everything does.
>
> I really really hope thiamine works like Trig reported becasue this is
> a huge finding and Trig deserves to have a plack in his honor posted
> somewhere, but surely the cancer link should be part of the
> discussion. Remember we are no longer using this stuff to conpensate
> for a nutritional lack but as a drug is huge doses.
>
> Randy

[Ellen K.]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Ellen Wrote:
> 150 vs 1.5 isn't a 10,000% increase, it's an increase of about 99%.
> The math is (150-1.5) / 1.5.

No, it's (150 - 1.5)/1.5 + 2 zeros added to result =9,000%. I was off
by 1000%, you were off by 8001%.

By your calculation it's impossible for anything to be over 100%.

Randy

======================
Chris and you are correct that I forgot to convert the result to a
percentage.
150 is 100 TIMES 1.5.

[W. Baker]

[email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
: Wendy Wrote:
: > I think, the way things are going, there is nothing tht doesn't cause
: > cancer somehow, except salt. ?that will get you before you get the
: > cancer:-) ?This was my son's thought when he was in High School. ?I am
: > beginning to think he was right:-)


: That really a simplification that just reduces the need to think.
: This is not just a case that something causes cancer somehow, but
: evidence of a direct link.

: I don't think food additives cause cancer but cigarettes are a
: different matter. Both are said to be involved but the evidence is
: weak to nil for food additives but substainial with smoking. It's a
: matter of looking at the evidence for each individual case, not just a
: case of saying nothing causes cancer because some folks say
: everything does.

: I really really hope thiamine works like Trig reported becasue this is
: a huge finding and Trig deserves to have a plack in his honor posted
: somewhere, but surely the cancer link should be part of the
: discussion. Remember we are no longer using this stuff to conpensate
: for a nutritional lack but as a drug is huge doses.

: Randy

Randy, it may not have been a great joke, but have you absolutely no sense
of humor?

Wendy

[[email protected]]

On Mar 28, 7:11*am, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:
> ra...@val.com <ra...@val.com> wrote:
>
> : Wendy Wrote:
> : > I think, the way things are going, there is nothing tht doesn't cause
> : > cancer somehow, except salt. ?that will get you before you get the
> : > cancer:-) ?This was my son's thought when he was in High School. ?I am
> : > beginning to think he was right:-)
>
> : That really a simplification that just reduces the need to think.
> : This is not just a case that something causes cancer somehow, but
> : evidence of a direct link.
>
> : I don't think food additives cause cancer but cigarettes are a
> : different matter. Both are said to be involved but the evidence is
> : weak to nil for food additives but substainial with smoking. It's a
> : matter of looking at the evidence for each individual case, not just a
> : case of saying nothing *causes cancer because some folks say
> : everything does.
>
> : I really really hope thiamine works like Trig reported becasue this is
> : a huge finding and Trig deserves to have a plack in his honor posted
> : somewhere, but surely the cancer link should be part of the
> : discussion. Remember we are no longer using this stuff to conpensate
> : for a nutritional lack but as a drug is huge doses.
>
> : Randy
>
> Randy, it may not have been a great joke, but have you absolutely no sense
> of humor?
>
> Wendy

I'll split the difference with you.
I've got a mediocore sense of humor and your jokes are so-so.

Randy

[outsider]

On 3/28/2011 10:16 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Mar 28, 7:11 am, "W. Baker"<wba...@panix.com> wrote:
>> ra...@val.com<ra...@val.com> wrote:

>> Randy, it may not have been a great joke, but have you absolutely no sense
>> of humor?
>>
>> Wendy
>
> I'll split the difference with you.
> I've got a mediocore sense of humor and your jokes are so-so.
>
> Randy

I have a good sense of humor till personally trod upon. Then sometimes
send Olivia.

<http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/8/861/C8GJ000Z/posters/deberardinis-olivia-don-t-tread-on-me.jpg>

[Ellen K.]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Ellen Wrote:
> +++++++++++++++++++++
> A moment ago you denied saying it caused cancer when in fact the studies
> say
> it appears to cause cancer cells to proliferate.
> --------------------------------
I was responding to Wendy's generic about "all sorts of things being
accused of causing cancer". My examples were food additives and
smoking.

But - back to thiamine, are you saying that the data are not
concerning. Is so why?

+++++++++++++++++++++++
Well, first of all a person has to already have cancer cells in order for
them to proliferate.

Secondly, in general I suppose there is a certain presumption that vitamins
and the like must be reasonably safe to use because if this were not the
case they wouldn't be allowed to sold over the counter.

Finally, with a supplement I feel *I* am in control, I can start it and see
for myself what the results are and whether I want to continue.
----------------------------------

Statins use at levels perscribed have a lot more study that thiamine
at levels at 10X the RDA.

Randy





>
> I don't think food additives cause cancer but cigarettes are a
> different matter. Both are said to be involved but the evidence is
> weak to nil for food additives but substainial with smoking. It's a
> matter of looking at the evidence for each individual case, not just a
> case of saying nothing causes cancer because some folks say
> everything does.
>
> I really really hope thiamine works like Trig reported becasue this is
> a huge finding and Trig deserves to have a plack in his honor posted
> somewhere, but surely the cancer link should be part of the
> discussion. Remember we are no longer using this stuff to conpensate
> for a nutritional lack but as a drug is huge doses.
>
> Randy

[[email protected]]

Randy Wrote:
> But - back to thiamine, are you saying that the data are not
> concerning. Is so why?

Ellen Replied:
> Well, first of all a person has to already have cancer cells in order for
> them to proliferate.

Randy Writes:
And most people do. For instance most men over 50 have cancer cells in
their prostate. This is generally agreed to be true all people. I just
question the idea of creating an environment more friendly to cancer
growth.

Ellen Wrote:
> Secondly, in general I suppose there is a certain presumption that vitamins
> and the like must be reasonably safe to use because if this were not the
> case they wouldn't be allowed to sold over the counter.

Randy Writes:
That's non-sense on multiple levels. For one, there's lots of stuff
you can buy at the drug store that will cause great harm if you take
9000% of the recommended dose.

Ellen Wrote:
> Finally, with a supplement I feel *I* am in control, I can start it and see
> for myself what the results are and whether I want to continue.

Randy Writes:
First of all "how you feel in control of a substance has nothing to
do with if' it's helpful or harmfull..
Secondly, in actuality, you are just as much in control of a
prescribed or OTC med. Your subjective feeling is just "subjective".

Finally, I presented the info on thiamine because I think it should be
part of the conversion, that's all. I'm not convinced it's true. In my
case, I would start taking high does thiamine immediately if it wasn't
for this data. The answer is still undetermined until a random
controlled trial comes closer to resolving the issue. For myself,
given the data I've seen, I wouldn't be confortable taking high does
thiamine. That's just me. In any case I look forward to Trig and
others reports on their results. If Trigs reports are born out high
does thiamine rivals some of the best meds in bringing down bg levels.

Randy

[Ellen K.]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Randy Wrote:
> > But - back to thiamine, are you saying that the data are not
>> concerning. Is so why?
>
> Ellen Replied:
>> Well, first of all a person has to already have cancer cells in order for
>> them to proliferate.
>
> Randy Writes:
> And most people do. For instance most men over 50 have cancer cells in
> their prostate. This is generally agreed to be true all people. I just
> question the idea of creating an environment more friendly to cancer
> growth.
>

I would think that could be at least partially counteracted by eating foods
high in antioxidants.

> Ellen Wrote:
>> Secondly, in general I suppose there is a certain presumption that
>> vitamins
>> and the like must be reasonably safe to use because if this were not the
>> case they wouldn't be allowed to sold over the counter.
>
> Randy Writes:
> That's non-sense on multiple levels. For one, there's lots of stuff
> you can buy at the drug store that will cause great harm if you take
> 9000% of the recommended dose.
>

The RDA is not a "recommended dose", it's supposedly the nutritional
requirement of average people. The RDA's for many nutrients have changed
drastically over the years, Vitamin D being a good recent example.

The amount in one tablet of something sold over the counter is relevant to
the question. I went today to the local discount health-food store to look
for thiamine because I saw online that the prices are so low I'd probably
come out ahead buying it locally if I had to allocate an entire minimum
shipping charge to the online price, the only strength offered was 100 mg.
Online I saw other strengths offered.

> Ellen Wrote:
>> Finally, with a supplement I feel *I* am in control, I can start it and
>> see
>> for myself what the results are and whether I want to continue.
>
> Randy Writes:
> First of all "how you feel in control of a substance has nothing to
> do with if' it's helpful or harmfull..
> Secondly, in actuality, you are just as much in control of a
> prescribed or OTC med. Your subjective feeling is just "subjective".
>

A feeling is by definition not right or wrong, it is by definition
subjective. Subjective doesn't mean invalid though.

> Finally, I presented the info on thiamine because I think it should be
> part of the conversion, that's all. I'm not convinced it's true. In my
> case, I would start taking high does thiamine immediately if it wasn't
> for this data. The answer is still undetermined until a random
> controlled trial comes closer to resolving the issue. For myself,
> given the data I've seen, I wouldn't be confortable taking high does
> thiamine. That's just me. In any case I look forward to Trig and
> others reports on their results. If Trigs reports are born out high
> does thiamine rivals some of the best meds in bringing down bg levels.
>

I don't consider 100 mg per day to be a "high dose". If it helps me I will
keep it in my regimen. If it seems to have adverse effects I will stop
taking it. Simple.


> Randy
>
>
>
>
>

[[email protected] |]

On Mar 28, 6:11*am, "W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:
> ra...@val.com <ra...@val.com> wrote:
>
> : Wendy Wrote:
> : > I think, the way things are going, there is nothing tht doesn't cause
> : > cancer somehow, except salt. ?that will get you before you get the
> : > cancer:-) ?This was my son's thought when he was in High School. ?I am
> : > beginning to think he was right:-)
>
> : That really a simplification that just reduces the need to think.
> : This is not just a case that something causes cancer somehow, but
> : evidence of a direct link.
>
> : I don't think food additives cause cancer but cigarettes are a
> : different matter. Both are said to be involved but the evidence is
> : weak to nil for food additives but substainial with smoking. It's a
> : matter of looking at the evidence for each individual case, not just a
> : case of saying nothing *causes cancer because some folks say
> : everything does.
>
> : I really really hope thiamine works like Trig reported becasue this is
> : a huge finding and Trig deserves to have a plack in his honor posted
> : somewhere, but surely the cancer link should be part of the
> : discussion. Remember we are no longer using this stuff to conpensate
> : for a nutritional lack but as a drug is huge doses.
>
> : Randy
>
> Randy, it may not have been a great joke, but have you absolutely no sense
> of humor?
>
> Wendy

I do agree with Randy, it may well be a "drug effect."
If it lowoerss my insulin levels and hence the IGF-1 level
it will in part be lowering the cancer "pressure."
Recall elevated insulin levels is a cancer risk in
itself as I recall. Granted the net result may differ.

I currently tinkering to see what level I can trim the dose
down to and still see a benefit. I do know 50 mgs is too little and
I suspect 150 mgs used in the study is marginal.

Clearly though look at metformin and then look at thiamine,
and then ask yourself, why isn't B-1 the first choice?
I come to an answer that Randy and Kurt would find unacceptable,
IMO of their world view.

My comments are based in the hope that the effect will
keep on for months or years.

Trig

[[email protected] |]

On Mar 27, 3:51*pm, "ra...@val.com" <ra...@val.com> wrote:
> On Mar 27, 12:24*am, "trigonometry1...@gmail.com |"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mar 26, 9:59*pm, "Ellen K." <firstinitiallastn...@dslextreme.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > <trigonometry1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > >news:[email protected]....
>
> > > Current BG is 93 with only 500 mg of B-1 on board.
> > > The local prices for vitamin B-1 are shocking are many
> > > of the OTC meds. Wallymart is even getting greedy
> > > such that even BiMart has better prices on some products.
>
> > > Nice to below 100 but I must keep restricting the carbs.
>
> > > can you say thiamine if you can't.........well.............Trig
>
> > > ===========================
>
> > > I buy my supplements from vitacost.com or koshervitamins.com. *Vitacost is
> > > cheaper but sometimes they don't have a kosher version of something Iwant.
>
> > For bulk vitamins and AAs I go with beyond-a-century.
> > Back in the day it was LEF.org by mail order.
> > I still use Puritan's Pride and I've been known use Vitacost.
> > There maybe another company I used last year for the super
> > high gamma vitamin E. For herbs I use Rose mountain in
> > Oregon.
>
> > I think in the spirit of experiment, I should drop the thiamine
> > dose back to 50 mg and then watch the BG. To see if it
> > holds or goes up again. Anyway we can know exercise
> > isn't my golden bullet though it make me feel really good
> > and is likely good in lower fatty deposit in the tissues.
>
> > The illogical part of my mind is unwilling to drop the thiamine
> > but to be sure doing so will certainly help confirm the result at
> > less for me. Golden coin of the realm, man!!! So I must try the
> > previous dose level again!
> > Anyway it will keep from buying some vastly over-priced
> > form in the local health food store or from the pin-heads
> > at Wallymart or the Rot-Aid Drug Store. (I don't mean the workers, I
> > mean the upper level management and buyers.)
>
> > Step by step so we go but at least thiamine is pretty
> > safe.............................................. .......................... *..Trig- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Trig,
>
> Here's a discussion of the thiamine/benfothiamine subject from a
> fellow I"ve got alot of respect for.http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic...-cancer-risk-q...
>
> In fact it was from him some years ago that I learned of this
> connection.
>
> I am by no means downgrading your finding, but the cancer connection
> is a bit worrysome.
>
> Randy
> Randy

We are all dead in the end. It might argued that eating
speeds cancer as well. I reminds me of a nutrition expert
that ended up starving to death in effort to slow the progress
of cancer. I recall examining a man whose health was failing
and whose benign tumor amounted to about 1/5 of his body weight.
His wife was concerned with his inability to eat much. Yet his tumor
seemed to take what it needed.

I am interested in the point you brought up.
I found that omeprazole apparently
alters how the metabolism handles thiamine!

Anyway, I still take high dose folic acid though that is
because I've taken for bulk of my life. I would suspect late
introduction
of high dose folic acid to be very mildly worrisome;-)
I don't worry that much in the face of the worries of others.
Indeed, the worries of others for me are comfort.

My worry about high dose thiamine is more along the lines
of the body become sensitivity to it. This has happen in
one subject in the medical lit.

The relation to B-1 to cancer seems more a hypothesis than
a solid reality.

Those meds that slow breakdown of insulin or raise it levels should
also have a cancer promoting risk by way of IGF-1.
So what the conventional Doc offers shouldn't
be seen as superior and may be inferior, IMO.

It seems like Micheal and I had our disagreements back
in the
day............................................... ..............Trig