Up & Down

shoppa@trailing-edge.com wrote:
> On Feb 13, 5:36 pm, Hi_Therre
<Bruce_The_KnotH...@Rosebud.Invalid>
> wrote:
>> 8u total should have not caused the hypo. Since we T2's
have IR, we
>> typically use much more than you T1's.
>
> Bruce,
>
> Sorry if I was hard on you in other posts.
>
> You're obviously struggling with insulin therapy and very
tight goals
> for bg's.
>
> My three words of "support" since this is supposed to be a
support
> group:
>
> 1. There are lots of really vocal people here (both T1 and
T2) who
> seem to be doing really great in keeping their bg's in
what is a
> super- duper-normal range (perhaps even better than
nondiabetics!).
> So much so that I often get a little depressed because
I've been
> doing this for 25 years now and I know that I can't do as
good as the
> best of them. If you read this newsgroup too much, you can
actually
> begin to believe that a 1 hr PP reading of 180 is bad and
must be
> corrected somehow. 180 PP isn't so bad.

180 may not be bad for a type 1 as the bg generally doesn't
stay at that level long. With type 2's the 180 can stay
around a lot longer and cause problems which we don't need.


If you look at the pharma
> websites they all emphasize that if you try for very tight
control
> with insulin, you WILL HAVE HYPOS.

If working with large amounts of insulin I would agree. If a
type 1 was to eat low carb and not require a lot of bolus
then it is possible to never hypo. The more insulin
injected, the more likelihood of a hypo. Especially if there
were a number of different significant carbs in the one
meal. If the only significant carb in a meal was a slice of
bread known to be 20 gr carb then that is a lot easier to
shoot for than a meal mixed of mashed potato, bread roll,
gravy and corn cob for example. I would take pharma advice
with a grain of salt personally. Mostly because they have a
need to cover their butts. Those type 1's I know who choose
to keep it simple in regards to carbs never have hypos.

shoppa@trailing-edge.com wrote:

: I am still slowly pondering and researching your statement that Type
: 2's are more prone to the compliations from the same level of
: hyperglycemia that a lot of Type 1's simply ride through. Anecdotally
: your observation certainly matches what others have written here about
: their individual situations. But I'm still trying to reconcile it with
: the fact that for example DCCT complication rates were measurably
: higher than a lot of Type 2 complication rates (here I have to compare
: say DCCT statistics with UKPDS statistics and that is fraught with
: inaccuracies especially by a neophyte like me). Compound that with the
: fact that a Type 1 gets diabetes very early in life and will (if
: lucky) live with the disease for half a century or more.

: Tim.

I am not a scientist or mathematician and don't play one on ASD, but is
there a different time scale for these two studies? I am a long time type
2 (20 yearsw.o complications), but type 1s of my age (70) usually have
had the disease for 50 or more years. many of the high bp and cardio
stuff I have been led to believe, is related to IR, usually not an issue
with type 1's (Kate excepted:-). This leds me to believe that the cardio
stuff is likely to hit type 2s earlier in the duration of their disease,
particularly as they are usually much older at the time of diagnosis.

I hope I am making sense here. Ultimatey, at a given older age, the
complications rates may be similar(ie age 60) but the duratin of the
disease id different. This doesn't seem to apply to the foot and such
issues. I also know nothing about the kidney failure rate for type 1s

Wendy

On 14 Feb 2007 06:24:32 -0800, shoppa@trailing-edge.com wrote:

>On Feb 13, 5:36 pm, Hi_Therre <Bruce_The_KnotH...@Rosebud.Invalid>
>wrote:
>> 8u total should have not caused the hypo. Since we T2's have IR, we
>> typically use much more than you T1's.
>
>Bruce,
>
>Sorry if I was hard on you in other posts.
>
>You're obviously struggling with insulin therapy and very tight goals
>for bg's.
>
>My three words of "support" since this is supposed to be a support
>group:
>
>1. There are lots of really vocal people here (both T1 and T2) who
>seem to be doing really great in keeping their bg's in what is a super-
>duper-normal range (perhaps even better than nondiabetics!). So much
>so that I often get a little depressed because I've been doing this
>for 25 years now and I know that I can't do as good as the best of
>them. If you read this newsgroup too much, you can actually begin to
>believe that a 1 hr PP reading of 180 is bad and must be corrected
>somehow. 180 PP isn't so bad. In the context of your meals/insulin
>timing, 1 hr PP may not be an awfully useful reading for establishing
>corrective actions. 1 hr PP may be a useful number for long-term
>adjustments.
>
>Side point: there's both corrective actions, and long-term planning
>that you can take. The two aren't mutually exclusive. But doing
>corrective actions and over-responding instead of long-term planning
>gets you on a rollercoaster. I've ridden that rollercoaster many
>times.
>
>2. The published absorption curves for insulin are what happens in the
>perfect world. In the real world, sometimes it kicks in faster than
>you expect. Other times it kicks in slower than you expect. Pumping
>can kind-of help with absorption timing, but it has a risks associated
>with it too (for example pumpers are much more likely to go into DKA
>due to a blocked infusion set and not getting any insulin for hours
>before they notice).
>
>3. The above two points doesn't mean it's hopeless. I take my bg
>readings, I do short-term corrective actions, I do long-term
>adjustments, I also know how some activities/conditions will change my
>bg. I've been at this for 25 years now and have a lot of experience
>under my belt. But I've done what you are writing about (over-
>reacting) many many times over the years and it'll happen sometimes.
>I've been in the ER multiple times for hypos. I just take it as a
>lesson learned and move on.
>
>I see what you're doing - insisting that what you observe for your bg
>must be impossible because you read so many websites and books that
>say if you do X and Y then Z must be the result - and feel for you.
>But please keep in mind that those websites (especially the ones run
>by frequent posters here) treat everything in a very optimistic
>hopeful way and do not mention all the difficulties that will be
>encountered in trying to control bg's. If you look at the pharma
>websites they all emphasize that if you try for very tight control
>with insulin, you WILL HAVE HYPOS. You have to be prepared for them.
>You don't want to overreact and cause hypos, but reacting to bg
>readings is what makes them actually useful so I cannot fault you for
>actually using the bg reading to make a correction. You will get
>better at it as you go along, but you'll never be as perfect as all
>the optimists here want you to believe.
>
>The websites, and the attitudes here, are overall very optimistic and
>upbeat. I feel like I'm the downer on this newsgroup sometimes for
>saying that I follow all the advice and my quarter century of
>experience and still I can't keep my bg's confined to the 80-100
>range. But at the same time, the optimism is a good thing overall.
>

I fight this damned disease every day with far more vigor than most
ASD posters. I almost had all my readings (just under 95%) within
nondiabetic territory for a 30 day period until last week. Something
inside me changed and turned everything on its head. Now control is
somewhat difficult to maintain. I've been using Novolog since '04,
and this was the first time such a small amount almost knocked me on
my ass.

I just have to figure out why the difficult control, and correct it. I
want to see if I can get 100% of the readings during a 30 day period
to be within 70 - 120. I think it can be done.

On 14 Feb 2007 03:32:02 -0800, shoppa@trailing-edge.com wrote:

>Hi_Therre wrote:
>> 8u total should have not caused the hypo. Since we T2's have IR, we
>> typically use much more than you T1's.
>
>You're mixing up cause and effect.
>
>Yes, certainly you thought that 8u total would not cause a hypo.
>
>But it did. So it was too much.
>
>In controlling bg's with insulin, hindsight is often 20-20.
>
>You might have heard me, in other threads, complain about the
>randomness of bg's and my swings between hypo's and too high despite
>all my best efforts. This doesn't mean that I just toss my fate to the
>wind and ignore the usual rules. I try to learn from my bg numbers as
>well as apply the corrective boluses etc.
>
>But Bruce, you have to stop ignoring the usual rules! If you're using
>insulin, you have to carry some sort of hypoglycemic treatment with
>you at all times. If you take a shot, you have to wait for it to have
>really taken effect before you take a corrective bolus.

You seem to be missing the point I was making. 4u novolog injection,
ate a can of soup of about 19 carbs resulted in a 1PP of 180. A week
ago, the same situation resulted in under 120 at 1PP. What changed is
my point in the posting. I followed up with another 4u, which
resulted in a small hypo at walmart about a half hour later. At other
times, I've used 6u, followed up with 8u or higher, and never saw a
hypo.

As you well know, 4 + 4u is quite small for a T2, especially an hour
apart. Since I've been spiking increasingly for the past week, my IR
has increased for some unknown reason. The high IR should have
prevented the hypo with such a small amount of insulin. I just can't
come up with a logical reason for the hypo to happen with only 4 + 4u.


>
>And, perhaps most frustrating for me personally: just because 90% of
>the posters here complain when their bg goes above 110, and others
>here who use insulin never have problems with hypos, doesn't mean that
>I can ever live to such a tight standard. By reading the posts in this
>newsgroup it is very easy to start setting my standards way too tight
>and get depressed. Attempting tight bg control with insulin will
>occasionally lead to hypos, and in many cases the cause of the hypo is
>obvious in retrospect - a "lesson learned". I learn a bunch of lessons
>every single day.
>

A week ago, my readings were such that just under 95% were within 70 -
120, now I'm at 89.2%, bummer. I'll keep trying to hit 100%.

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:39:41 -0600, "J.C. Hartmann" <jch@meadecom.com>
wrote:

>Hi_Therre wrote:
>
>> Last year, there was a ASD poster who said he used 300u a day. I
>> think it was novolog. That is about 1/3 of a insulin vial. I asked
>> him if he had cardio problems with all that excess insulin floating
>> around in his arteries. He replied that a cardiologist said he had no
>> cardio problems. A poster named Jenny said he probably developed
>> antibodies which prevented such. Not sure what that meant.
>
>That's why I suggested trying a switch to Humalog. The body can develop
>allergies to certain insulins, i.e., start to produce antibodies, making
>them either totally ineffective or undependable.
>

I missed your earlier posting. I've been spiking like a bitch since
about last Wednesday. Something is driving the sugars to be very
unstable, and hard to control. Before this spiking began, I had the
sugars to just under 95% of the readings being within 70 - 120. That
is almost perfect. Now I'm at 89.27% between 70 - 120 and dropping.

The 4 + 4u spaced an hour apart are very small injections for a T2.
The 4u handled the soup last week without a spike, but, popped a 180
two days ago. Maybe the Novolog is to old, at about 8 months, and
should be tossed. I may replace it with Humalog, and is about $8
cheaper.

The hypo, even though a small one, should not have happened.

On 14 Feb 2007 08:19:53 -0800, shoppa@trailing-edge.com
wrote:

>On Feb 14, 10:18 am, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Forgive me butting in here as a non-insulin using T2, but my
>> impression was that those here who manage tight BG control are almost
>> all non-insulin using T2s.
>> [...]
>> So why all this heat from insulin users directed at the BG targets and
>> control methods of us tight BG control non-insulin users?
>
>Sorry Chris, I was not attempting to put the heat on any T2's. In fact
>I have attributed some of my frustration towards T1's here who never
>have to raise their bg targets when doing activities that might be
>critically impacted by unexplainable hypos (e.g. driving).
>
>This is just my personal frustration and not really the fault of any
>one person or even group of people here. Like I said, the overall
>tempo seems to be remarkably upbeat and this is overall a good thing.
>I certainly should not be faulting those who have perfected their
>control to such a point that they don't have the worries and concerns
>that I have, although sometimes I feel like they have some secret that
>me and my doctor would love to know :-).
>
>Tim.

Hi Tim

I'll echo Chris. We really do have different conditions with
some common treatments and symptoms. We can help each other
and often do - but the heat that is generated by T2's
commenting on uniquely T1 matters and vice-versa is really
silly.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
--
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Epidaurus

On Feb 14, 1:29?pm, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_...@maccas.com> wrote:
> I would take pharma advice
> with a grain of salt personally. Mostly because they have a
> need to cover their butts.

I think taking ANY advice, even here, with a grain of salt is a good
thing to do. The two people who know our medical needs the most are
our doctors and ourselves. Salt is a great seasoning, but too much of
it ruins the broth...if you know what I mean.

Kurt

On Feb 14, 3:44?pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 14 Feb 2007 08:19:53 -0800, sho...@trailing-edge.com
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Feb 14, 10:18 am, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> >> Forgive me butting in here as a non-insulin using T2, but my
> >> impression was that those here who manage tight BG control are almost
> >> all non-insulin using T2s.
> >> [...]
> >> So why all this heat from insulin users directed at the BG targets and
> >> control methods of us tight BG control non-insulin users?
>
> >Sorry Chris, I was not attempting to put the heat on any T2's. In fact
> >I have attributed some of my frustration towards T1's here who never
> >have to raise their bg targets when doing activities that might be
> >critically impacted by unexplainable hypos (e.g. driving).
>
> >This is just my personal frustration and not really the fault of any
> >one person or even group of people here. Like I said, the overall
> >tempo seems to be remarkably upbeat and this is overall a good thing.
> >I certainly should not be faulting those who have perfected their
> >control to such a point that they don't have the worries and concerns
> >that I have, although sometimes I feel like they have some secret that
> >me and my doctor would love to know :-).
>
> >Tim.
>
> Hi Tim
>
> I'll echo Chris. We really do have different conditions with
> some common treatments and symptoms. We can help each other
> and often do - but the heat that is generated by T2's
> commenting on uniquely T1 matters

The heat? It's hardly ever brought up.

>and vice-versa is really silly.

Since you're the king of the "vice-versa" regarding this, you could be
a prime mover in stopping the silly.

Kurt

On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:28:15 -0600, Hi_Therre
<Bruce_The_KnotHead@Rosebud.Invalid> wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:39:41 -0600, "J.C. Hartmann" <jch@meadecom.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Hi_Therre wrote:
>>
>>> Last year, there was a ASD poster who said he used 300u a day. I
>>> think it was novolog. That is about 1/3 of a insulin vial. I asked
>>> him if he had cardio problems with all that excess insulin floating
>>> around in his arteries. He replied that a cardiologist said he had no
>>> cardio problems. A poster named Jenny said he probably developed
>>> antibodies which prevented such. Not sure what that meant.
>>
>>That's why I suggested trying a switch to Humalog. The body can develop
>>allergies to certain insulins, i.e., start to produce antibodies, making
>>them either totally ineffective or undependable.
>>
>
>I missed your earlier posting. I've been spiking like a bitch since
>about last Wednesday. Something is driving the sugars to be very
>unstable, and hard to control. Before this spiking began, I had the
>sugars to just under 95% of the readings being within 70 - 120. That
>is almost perfect. Now I'm at 89.27% between 70 - 120 and dropping.
>
>The 4 + 4u spaced an hour apart are very small injections for a T2.
>The 4u handled the soup last week without a spike, but, popped a 180
>two days ago. Maybe the Novolog is to old, at about 8 months, and
>should be tossed. I may replace it with Humalog, and is about $8
>cheaper.
>
>The hypo, even though a small one, should not have happened.


I wonder if you are coming down with something like a cold or some
other infection that just hasn't presented itself since you ate the
same meal and treated with the same dose. The variant in one week may
have been a change in perhaps the amount of sleep you've had or not
had, or a cold coming on. Is the weather better or worse than it was
when you had more success with the same meal and dose? Just a few
thoughts on why the variation. Several people both T1 and T2 report
that they have a harder time with control when they are coming down
with something, under more stress, or actually ill. Hope things
start improving for you.

Hi_Therre <Bruce_The_KnotHead@rosebud.invalid> wrote:
: On 14 Feb 2007 03:32:02 -0800, shoppa@trailing-edge.com wrote:

: >Hi_Therre wrote:
: >> 8u total should have not caused the hypo. Since we T2's have IR, we
: >> typically use much more than you T1's.
: >
: >You're mixing up cause and effect.
: >
: >Yes, certainly you thought that 8u total would not cause a hypo.
: >
: >But it did. So it was too much.
: >
: >In controlling bg's with insulin, hindsight is often 20-20.
: >
: >You might have heard me, in other threads, complain about the
: >randomness of bg's and my swings between hypo's and too high despite
: >all my best efforts. This doesn't mean that I just toss my fate to the
: >wind and ignore the usual rules. I try to learn from my bg numbers as
: >well as apply the corrective boluses etc.
: >
: >But Bruce, you have to stop ignoring the usual rules! If you're using
: >insulin, you have to carry some sort of hypoglycemic treatment with
: >you at all times. If you take a shot, you have to wait for it to have
: >really taken effect before you take a corrective bolus.

: You seem to be missing the point I was making. 4u novolog injection,
: ate a can of soup of about 19 carbs resulted in a 1PP of 180. A week
: ago, the same situation resulted in under 120 at 1PP. What changed is
: my point in the posting. I followed up with another 4u, which
: resulted in a small hypo at walmart about a half hour later. At other
: times, I've used 6u, followed up with 8u or higher, and never saw a
: hypo.

: As you well know, 4 + 4u is quite small for a T2, especially an hour
: apart. Since I've been spiking increasingly for the past week, my IR
: has increased for some unknown reason. The high IR should have
: prevented the hypo with such a small amount of insulin. I just can't
: come up with a logical reason for the hypo to happen with only 4 + 4u.


: >
: >And, perhaps most frustrating for me personally: just because 90% of
: >the posters here complain when their bg goes above 110, and others
: >here who use insulin never have problems with hypos, doesn't mean that
: >I can ever live to such a tight standard. By reading the posts in this
: >newsgroup it is very easy to start setting my standards way too tight
: >and get depressed. Attempting tight bg control with insulin will
: >occasionally lead to hypos, and in many cases the cause of the hypo is
: >obvious in retrospect - a "lesson learned". I learn a bunch of lessons
: >every single day.
: >

: A week ago, my readings were such that just under 95% were within 70 -
: 120, now I'm at 89.2%, bummer. I'll keep trying to hit 100%.

Have you been loosing weight? that can lead to a need to change your
insulin amounts as your IR would come down, or vice versa.

Wendy

[Default] On 14 Feb 2007 19:19:27 GMT, Chris Malcolm
<cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> Giggled into the madness of usenet:

>shoppa@trailing-edge.com wrote:
>> On Feb 14, 10:18 am, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>> Forgive me butting in here as a non-insulin using T2, but my
>>> impression was that those here who manage tight BG control are almost
>>> all non-insulin using T2s.
>>> [...]
>>> So why all this heat from insulin users directed at the BG targets and
>>> control methods of us tight BG control non-insulin users?
>
>> Sorry Chris, I was not attempting to put the heat on any T2's.
>
>I wasn't meaning you, I was meaning the risk T2s here run, when
>discussing how to get pp BG spikes under say 140, of getting ridiculed
>for worrying over such trivialities by a T1 boasting about how often
>they've been carted off to ER with BGs well over twice that.
>

That's taking posts out of context.

--
Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
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http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
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"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
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right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
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If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
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..

[Default] On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:29:49 +1100, "Ozgirl"
<are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> Giggled into the madness of usenet:

>If working with large amounts of insulin I would agree. If a
>type 1 was to eat low carb and not require a lot of bolus
>then it is possible to never hypo. The more insulin
>injected, the more likelihood of a hypo. Especially if there
>were a number of different significant carbs in the one
>meal. If the only significant carb in a meal was a slice of
>bread known to be 20 gr carb then that is a lot easier to
>shoot for than a meal mixed of mashed potato, bread roll,
>gravy and corn cob for example. I would take pharma advice
>with a grain of salt personally. Mostly because they have a
>need to cover their butts. Those type 1's I know who choose
>to keep it simple in regards to carbs never have hypos.


more likely they never have major hypos.


--
Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"



"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..

[Default] On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:10:31 -0500, "rk"
<p_haha_medium@gmail.com> Giggled into the madness of usenet:


>:
>: excuse me? doesn't begin until 90 minutes? that's wrong. it peaks at
>: about 1 hour to 2 hours but actually starts kicking in 15 to 20
>: minutes after injection. and is completely absorbed about 5 to 6 hours
>: later in most cases, some have been recorded as long as 8 hours.
>:

>:
>:
>
>just the way I say it when it peaks is when it begins working.
>


when it peaks is when it is working at it's strongest and has been
working for some time.

--
Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"



"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..

[Default] On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:36:57 -0600, Hi_Therre
<Bruce_The_KnotHead@Rosebud.Invalid> Giggled into the madness of
usenet:

>>
>>excuse me? doesn't begin until 90 minutes? that's wrong. it peaks at
>>about 1 hour to 2 hours but actually starts kicking in 15 to 20
>>minutes after injection. and is completely absorbed about 5 to 6 hours
>>later in most cases, some have been recorded as long as 8 hours.
>
>As usual RK thinks she knows everything, and everybody else is totally
>stupid. She is a Legend in her own mind.

I think in this case, it is more a case of her knowing how it affects
her as an individual and not clearly getting that point across. I
certainly would not expect her to adjust her doses based on my insulin
timing/ratios etc. She could seriously be harmed if she did so, and
she is smart enough not to even try.


--
Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"



"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..

[Default] On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:36:47 -0600, Hi_Therre
<Bruce_The_KnotHead@Rosebud.Invalid> Giggled into the madness of
usenet:

>
>8u total should have not caused the hypo. Since we T2's have IR, we
>typically use much more than you T1's.

shoulda coulda woulda can leave you in serious trouble.

there is no set rate of insulin resistance throughout the day. it is
very possible that you overlapped your dose and ended up with too much
for too long. by overlapping doses you extend how long the insulin
will be affecting you and you also extend how long it will be at peak
capacity.

Basically what you did was similar to what a pumper dose using an
"extended bolus" or a split bolus.

you really should not take a second correction dose until you are
certain you are beyond the prior dose's peak time.

--
Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"



"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..

[Default] On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:39:41 -0600, "J.C. Hartmann"
<jch@meadecom.com> Giggled into the madness of usenet:

>Hi_Therre wrote:
>
>> Last year, there was a ASD poster who said he used 300u a day. I
>> think it was novolog. That is about 1/3 of a insulin vial. I asked
>> him if he had cardio problems with all that excess insulin floating
>> around in his arteries. He replied that a cardiologist said he had no
>> cardio problems. A poster named Jenny said he probably developed
>> antibodies which prevented such. Not sure what that meant.
>
>That's why I suggested trying a switch to Humalog. The body can develop
>allergies to certain insulins, i.e., start to produce antibodies, making
>them either totally ineffective or undependable.
>
>Jim


Jim is correct on that issue. This is why I don't use any animal
insulin, beef or beef/pork.

--
Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"



"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..

Kurt wrote:
> On Feb 14, 1:29?pm, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_...@maccas.com>
wrote:
>> I would take pharma advice
>> with a grain of salt personally. Mostly because they have
a
>> need to cover their butts.
>
> I think taking ANY advice, even here, with a grain of salt
is a good
> thing to do. The two people who know our medical needs
the most are
> our doctors and ourselves. Salt is a great seasoning, but
too much of
> it ruins the broth...if you know what I mean.
>
> Kurt

I can't bear salty things anymore. I went on a salt free
diet years ago for blood pressure during pregnancy. The
specialist even had me on salt free butter and bread. Now I
am not that strict but sometimes the butter on a cracker
tastes extremely salty and canned soup, well I feel like I
am drinking seawater.

Ma¢k wrote:
> [Default] On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:29:49 +1100, "Ozgirl"
> <are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> Giggled into the madness of
usenet:
>
>>If working with large amounts of insulin I would agree. If
a
>>type 1 was to eat low carb and not require a lot of bolus
>>then it is possible to never hypo. The more insulin
>>injected, the more likelihood of a hypo. Especially if
there
>>were a number of different significant carbs in the one
>>meal. If the only significant carb in a meal was a slice
of
>>bread known to be 20 gr carb then that is a lot easier to
>>shoot for than a meal mixed of mashed potato, bread roll,
>>gravy and corn cob for example. I would take pharma advice
>>with a grain of salt personally. Mostly because they have
a
>>need to cover their butts. Those type 1's I know who
choose
>>to keep it simple in regards to carbs never have hypos.
>
>
> more likely they never have major hypos.

One person who is around 48 now, diagnosed at age 4, hasn't
had a single low since childhood when her parents made her
eat 3 meals a days and snacks. She eats only two meals a
day, breakfast and dinner - very simple meals too, no lunch
or snacks but a few cups of black coffee and water
throughout the day. She shoots bolus twice a day and Lantus
as her basal. She has no complications that she knows of
but she looks very old. I wonder if it is lack of nutrients
long term. I could not eat like that.

On Feb 14, 11:09�pm, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_...@maccas.com> wrote:
> Kurt wrote:
> > On Feb 14, 1:29?pm, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_...@maccas.com>
> wrote:
> >> I would take pharma advice
> >> with a grain ofsaltpersonally. Mostly because they have
> a
> >> need to cover their butts.
>
> > I think taking ANY advice, even here, with a grain ofsalt
> is a good
> > thing to do. *The two people who know our medical needs
> the most are
> > our doctors and ourselves. *Saltis a great seasoning, but
> too much of
> > it ruins the broth...if you know what I mean.
>
> > Kurt
>
> I can't bear salty things anymore. I went on asaltfree
> diet years ago for blood pressure during pregnancy. The
> specialist even had me onsaltfree butter and bread. Now I
> am not that strict but sometimes the butter on a cracker
> tastes extremely salty and canned soup, well I feel like I
> am drinking seawater

ITA. I was never on a salt free diet, but I don't like anything
that's too salty. My parents used to use a lot of salt, too much now
that I think of it, on everything. We'd go to the movies and I always
made sure I got my popcorn myself...because if they bought it they
would pour a shaker full of salt on mine the way they did theirs.
When I use salt I use sea salt that I get at the health food store.
On rice and veggies I'll use organic shoyu sauce, but just a splash as
it is quite salty, too.

Kurt

[Default] On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:13:07 +1100, "Ozgirl"
<are_we_there_yet@maccas.com> Giggled into the madness of usenet:

>> more likely they never have major hypos.
>
>One person who is around 48 now, diagnosed at age 4, hasn't
>had a single low since childhood when her parents made her
>eat 3 meals a days and snacks. She eats only two meals a
>day, breakfast and dinner - very simple meals too, no lunch
>or snacks but a few cups of black coffee and water
>throughout the day. She shoots bolus twice a day and Lantus
>as her basal. She has no complications that she knows of
>but she looks very old. I wonder if it is lack of nutrients
>long term. I could not eat like that.

I wouldn't believe her claims that she hasn't had any hypos for that
long.

I would also wonder how often she tests per day. she may not know
exactly how her BGs run throughout the whole day.

--
Mâck©® Deltec CoZmore Pumper
Type 1 since 1975
http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org
http://www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.insulin-pumpers.org
http://www.pandora.com enter "Jason & Demarco"



"To announce that there must be no criticism of the
President, or that we are to stand by the President
right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public."
....Theodore Roosevelt

(o ô)
--ooO-(_)-Ooo--------------------

"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
....Bilbo Baggins


DISCLAIMER If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate...
..

shoppa@trailing-edge.com wrote:

> I am still slowly pondering and researching your statement that Type
> 2's are more prone to the compliations from the same level of
> hyperglycemia that a lot of Type 1's simply ride through.

It's not quite as strong as a statement. I wouldn't be too surprised
if it turned out to be mistaken. It's a suggestion which on general
principles seems to me to be quite likely, which is consistent with
some anecdotal data, and for which it's hard to find any good
contradictory evidence. I therefore think it's wise to entertain the
idea as a provisional belief, or a definite possibility, until better
evidence turns up.

[Warning: if the above seems to you to be so obviously true it hardly
needs saying, or typical of the nonsense I keep posting, then reading
the rest of this post will be a waste of your time :-]

> Anecdotally
> your observation certainly matches what others have written here about
> their individual situations. But I'm still trying to reconcile it with
> the fact that for example DCCT complication rates were measurably
> higher than a lot of Type 2 complication rates (here I have to compare
> say DCCT statistics with UKPDS statistics and that is fraught with
> inaccuracies especially by a neophyte like me). Compound that with the
> fact that a Type 1 gets diabetes very early in life and will (if
> lucky) live with the disease for half a century or more.

That's one of the problems with what evidence does exist, or if you
like what evidence seems at first sight to exist. When you look more
closely at it there's always too many confounding uncontrolled
variables to be able to draw a conclusion one way or the other.

It's unfortunately the case that scientific research is difficult
enough that most of it isn't much good. Science progresses slowly but
surely by repeatedly sifting through lots of poor science until the
few bits of good science are found that establish something well
enough to be able to build on. That often requires history, the
perspective of the retrospective view. As Popper pointed out, science
strengthens its conclusions by repeatedly trying and failing to weaken
them.

One of the things scientists have to struggle very carefully with is
expressing different kinds and degrees of uncertainty about
conclusions. They've developed a very detailed kind of language for
dealing with different kinds of relationship between evidence and
conclusions. The public and the media have no patience with this, and
simply want to be told if something is true or false. They don't
notice the crucial difference between such statements as "I do not
know that to be true" and "I do know that not to be true."

I think it's worth while bearing in mind the idea that the differences
between diabetics, especially the differences between T1s and T2s, may
mean for different diabetics there are different thresholds of BG
levels, frequencies, and durations, which will result in various kinds
of unrecoverable damage. There are IMHO good general reasons for
suppposing that that could be the case, and not yet enough evidence to
show that it isn't.

In short, a BG level which damages me *may* not damage you.

As a colleague of mine liked to tell his confused students, "if you're
feeling confused you're getting the right idea". :-)

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Kurt <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 14, 3:44?pm, Alan S <loralgtweightandca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 14 Feb 2007 08:19:53 -0800, sho...@trailing-edge.com
>> wrote:
>> >On Feb 14, 10:18 am, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

>> >> So why all this heat from insulin users directed at the BG targets and
>> >> control methods of us tight BG control non-insulin users?

>> >Sorry Chris, I was not attempting to put the heat on any T2's. In fact
>> >I have attributed some of my frustration towards T1's here who never
>> >have to raise their bg targets when doing activities that might be
>> >critically impacted by unexplainable hypos (e.g. driving).

>> I'll echo Chris. We really do have different conditions with
>> some common treatments and symptoms. We can help each other
>> and often do - but the heat that is generated by T2's
>> commenting on uniquely T1 matters

> The heat? It's hardly ever brought up.

You're right. It's mostly in the other direction, of T1s commenting on
uniquely T2 matters.

>> and vice-versa is really silly.

> Since you're the king of the "vice-versa" regarding this, you could be
> a prime mover in stopping the silly.

I think you've got it wrong there Kurt: Alan isn't a T1.

But it is wider than just a T1/T2 difference, although that's a big
part of it.

The heat of inappropraite sarcastic comment about differing BG control
targets happens often enough for it to be a general complaint which
many posters to asd have made over the years and a few posters have
made recently.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

On Feb 14, 6:26 pm, Hi_Therre <Bruce_The_KnotH...@Rosebud.Invalid>
wrote:
> On 14 Feb 2007 06:24:32 -0800, sho...@trailing-edge.com wrote:
> >The websites, and the attitudes here, are overall very optimistic and
> >upbeat. I feel like I'm the downer on this newsgroup sometimes for
> >saying that I follow all the advice and my quarter century of
> >experience and still I can't keep my bg's confined to the 80-100
> >range. But at the same time, the optimism is a good thing overall.
>
> I fight this damned disease every day with far more vigor than most
> ASD posters. I almost had all my readings (just under 95%) within
> nondiabetic territory for a 30 day period until last week. Something
> inside me changed and turned everything on its head. Now control is
> somewhat difficult to maintain. I've been using Novolog since '04,
> and this was the first time such a small amount almost knocked me on
> my ass.
>
> I just have to figure out why the difficult control, and correct it. I
> want to see if I can get 100% of the readings during a 30 day period
> to be within 70 - 120. I think it can be done.- Hide quoted text -

If approached in a positive way I think such a challenge could be
invigorating. But when if/when you fail to meet some super-tight super-
normal range, it's important not to blame yourself too much - it is SO
easy for me to "burn out" after years (decades) of this and end up
unable to do anything for at least a short period of time.

If, when your bg behavior doesn't match what you think it should, it's
important to sit back and ask "what's wrong with my model and how can
I improve it based on what I learned?" rather than go around
blustering about how it's impossible for what happened to you to have
happened :-). I go around here blustering all the time, you will note!

Insulin needs will shift and scale in unpredictable ways over time.
Hypos will come COMPLETELY out of the blue sometimes, and unexplained
highs too. Learning how to moderate my response instead of
overreacting is a very very hard lesson that I am still learning.
Glucose tablets are one (not the only) way of getting a good
measurable response to a hypo.

Tim.

On Feb 14, 4:29 pm, "Ozgirl" <are_we_there_...@maccas.com> wrote:
> sho...@trailing-edge.com wrote:

> >If you look at the pharma
> > websites they all emphasize that if you try for very tight control
> > with insulin, you WILL HAVE HYPOS.
>
> If working with large amounts of insulin I would agree. If a
> type 1 was to eat low carb and not require a lot of bolus
> then it is possible to never hypo.

I think you're being optimistic. Basal requirements are not perfectly
met by basal insulins. The treatments and tools are getting better,
but not yet perfect.

The classic example for a Type 1 (with some relevance to at least some
Type 2's here as well) is trying to keep bg constant overnight. It's a
remarkably difficult task, even with modern insulins, and lots of
folks have gone to a pump to overcome the variability of absorption
timing. Combine with the fear of going hypo while asleep and it's a
scarily difficult task.

> The more insulin
> injected, the more likelihood of a hypo.

I'll agree that the more insulin, the greater a risk of a hypo, but
there's at least a dozen other factors that are more relevant. If
someone didn't mind having bg's in the 200-300's all the time, maybe
they could go through life without a very minimal probability of a
hypo. But if you are intensively using insulin to try to achieve
nearly-normal bg numbers, I think you will always have a high
likelihood of a hypo. I think the DCCT produced some real good results
illustrating the connection.

> Those type 1's I know who choose
> to keep it simple in regards to carbs never have hypos.

I don't believe that. I am more likely to believe that a type 1 who
claims that he never has a hypo is simply lying or glossing over all
the minor hypos. It is easy to pretend that diabetes or hypos isn't a
problem, that it's all completely honky-dorey and under control, right
up until you wake up in the ER and realize that yes maybe sometimes
you will need some extra help.

You do have to distinguish between "severe hypo" and "mild hypo" at
some point too. The DCCT drew such a dividing line at hypos that are
not treatable by the diabetic themselves but require the assistance of
somebody else. In my 25 years, I've only had two hypos that resulted
in a trip to the ER - if you set your standard for "never have hypos"
there, then yes, there will be lots of Type 1's especially recent ones
who have never had a hypo that severe.

For each of those trips to the ER, I had vastly more mild routinely-
treatable hypos.

Tim.

Hi_Therre <Bruce_The_KnotHead@Rosebud.Invalid> wrote in
news:1n67t2p7nfld445t64pna8cj410bka7nq9@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:39:41 -0600, "J.C. Hartmann" <jch@meadecom.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Hi_Therre wrote:
>>
>>> Last year, there was a ASD poster who said he used 300u a day. I
>>> think it was novolog. That is about 1/3 of a insulin vial. I asked
>>> him if he had cardio problems with all that excess insulin floating
>>> around in his arteries. He replied that a cardiologist said he had no
>>> cardio problems. A poster named Jenny said he probably developed
>>> antibodies which prevented such. Not sure what that meant.
>>
>>That's why I suggested trying a switch to Humalog. The body can develop
>>allergies to certain insulins, i.e., start to produce antibodies, making
>>them either totally ineffective or undependable.
>>
>
> I missed your earlier posting. I've been spiking like a bitch since
> about last Wednesday. Something is driving the sugars to be very
> unstable, and hard to control. Before this spiking began, I had the
> sugars to just under 95% of the readings being within 70 - 120. That
> is almost perfect. Now I'm at 89.27% between 70 - 120 and dropping.
>
> The 4 + 4u spaced an hour apart are very small injections for a T2.
> The 4u handled the soup last week without a spike, but, popped a 180
> two days ago. Maybe the Novolog is to old, at about 8 months, and
> should be tossed. I may replace it with Humalog, and is about $8
> cheaper.
>
> The hypo, even though a small one, should not have happened.
>

Just a thought, I toss my unrefrigerated pens at 30 days. I think that's
what the label calls for.