Vinegar for Heartburn?

[hemyd]

About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side effect of
long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn, enough to make
sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up enough on it. Tried
taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip of water alleviates the
symptom for a short time. I had a feeling that the heartburn was more likely
when I didn't eat, than after eating.

At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of vinegar I was
taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a remedy! So now I take two or
three tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white vinegar) before going to
bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for almost all night. I haven't taken
Pariet for several weeks now.

This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before going thaat
way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the same cause aas in my
case.

Henry.

[Julie Bove]

"hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] .au...
> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side effect
> of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn, enough to make
> sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up enough on it. Tried
> taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip of water alleviates the
> symptom for a short time. I had a feeling that the heartburn was more
> likely when I didn't eat, than after eating.
>
> At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of vinegar I was
> taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a remedy! So now I take two
> or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white vinegar) before going
> to bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for almost all night. I haven't
> taken Pariet for several weeks now.
>
> This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before going
> thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the same cause aas
> in my case.
>
> Henry.

I don't like the taste of vinegar so I tried the tablets for a while.
Purported to help with GERD and cause weight loss. Although I lost a couple
of pounds right away, they did nothing after that.

If it is GERD then the specific foods that you eat could be a trigger. And
not eating is bad. Best to eat on a schedule and not overly large meals.

[Cheri]

"hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] .au...
> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side effect
> of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn, enough to make
> sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up enough on it. Tried
> taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip of water alleviates the
> symptom for a short time. I had a feeling that the heartburn was more
> likely when I didn't eat, than after eating.
>
> At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of vinegar I was
> taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a remedy! So now I take two
> or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white vinegar) before going
> to bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for almost all night. I haven't
> taken Pariet for several weeks now.
>
> This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before going
> thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the same cause aas
> in my case.
>
> Henry.

Don't know for a fact or anything, but I've always heard that it was apple
cider vinegar with the mother that helped with heartburn.

Cheri

[%]

Cheri wrote:
> "hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected] .au...
>> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side
>> effect of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn,
>> enough to make sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up
>> enough on it. Tried taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip
>> of water alleviates the symptom for a short time. I had a feeling
>> that the heartburn was more likely when I didn't eat, than after
>> eating. At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of
>> vinegar
>> I was taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a remedy! So now
>> I take two or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white
>> vinegar) before going to bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for
>> almost all night. I haven't taken Pariet for several weeks now.
>>
>> This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before
>> going thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the
>> same cause aas in my case.
>>
>> Henry.
>
> Don't know for a fact or anything, but I've always heard that it was
> apple cider vinegar with the mother that helped with heartburn.
>
> Cheri


cimetidine is good for heartburn if you have nothing toothpaste helps for a
while

[Cheri]

"%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..

> cimetidine is good for heartburn if you have nothing toothpaste helps for
> a while

Fortunately, I don't have heartburn anymore at all, but sure used to at
times. Pure misery.

Cheri

[%]

Cheri wrote:
> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]..
>
>> cimetidine is good for heartburn if you have nothing toothpaste
>> helps for a while
>
> Fortunately, I don't have heartburn anymore at all, but sure used to
> at times. Pure misery.
>
> Cheri


i used to get it bad too , now only when i eat real spicy stuff ,
but i like chili peppers on spaghetti and red hot on chicken wings

[hemyd]

"Cheri" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> "hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected] .au...
>> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side effect
>> of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn, enough to make
>> sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up enough on it. Tried
>> taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip of water alleviates the
>> symptom for a short time. I had a feeling that the heartburn was more
>> likely when I didn't eat, than after eating.
>>
>> At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of vinegar I
>> was taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a remedy! So now I take
>> two or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white vinegar) before
>> going to bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for almost all night. I
>> haven't taken Pariet for several weeks now.
>>
>> This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before going
>> thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the same cause
>> aas in my case.
>>
>> Henry.
>
> Don't know for a fact or anything, but I've always heard that it was apple
> cider vinegar with the mother that helped with heartburn.
>
> Cheri
>
I have tried apple cider vinegar. I found that plain vinegar is just as
good. Probably cheaper. Less sweet.

Henry.

[%]

hemyd wrote:
> "Cheri" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]..
>> "hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected] .au...
>>> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side
>>> effect of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn,
>>> enough to make sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up
>>> enough on it. Tried taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip
>>> of water alleviates the symptom for a short time. I had a feeling
>>> that the heartburn was more likely when I didn't eat, than after
>>> eating.
>>>
>>> At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of
>>> vinegar I was taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a
>>> remedy! So now I take two or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar
>>> (ordinary white vinegar) before going to bed. That gets rid of the
>>> heartburn for almost all night. I haven't taken Pariet for several
>>> weeks now.
>>>
>>> This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before
>>> going thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the
>>> same cause aas in my case.
>>>
>>> Henry.
>>
>> Don't know for a fact or anything, but I've always heard that it was
>> apple cider vinegar with the mother that helped with heartburn.
>>
>> Cheri
>>
> I have tried apple cider vinegar. I found that plain vinegar is just
> as good. Probably cheaper. Less sweet.
>
> Henry.


a spoonful of baking soda in some water and drink it

[Cheri]

"hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..

> I have tried apple cider vinegar. I found that plain vinegar is just as
> good. Probably cheaper. Less sweet.
>
> Henry.

Whatever works is my motto. Glad that vinegar works for you, and it is
cheaper for sure.

Cheri

[Cheri]

"%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ...
> Cheri wrote:
>> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]..
>>
>>> cimetidine is good for heartburn if you have nothing toothpaste
>>> helps for a while
>>
>> Fortunately, I don't have heartburn anymore at all, but sure used to
>> at times. Pure misery.
>>
>> Cheri
>
>
> i used to get it bad too , now only when i eat real spicy stuff , but i
> like chili peppers on spaghetti and red hot on chicken wings


Yes, spicy food will do it especially before going to bed.

Cheri

[Cheri]

"%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> hemyd wrote:
>> "Cheri" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]..
>>> "hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected] .au...
>>>> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side
>>>> effect of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn,
>>>> enough to make sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up
>>>> enough on it. Tried taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip
>>>> of water alleviates the symptom for a short time. I had a feeling
>>>> that the heartburn was more likely when I didn't eat, than after
>>>> eating. At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of
>>>> vinegar I was taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a
>>>> remedy! So now I take two or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar
>>>> (ordinary white vinegar) before going to bed. That gets rid of the
>>>> heartburn for almost all night. I haven't taken Pariet for several
>>>> weeks now. This is purely my experience. Please do your own research
>>>> before
>>>> going thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the
>>>> same cause aas in my case.
>>>>
>>>> Henry.
>>>
>>> Don't know for a fact or anything, but I've always heard that it was
>>> apple cider vinegar with the mother that helped with heartburn.
>>>
>>> Cheri
>>>
>> I have tried apple cider vinegar. I found that plain vinegar is just
>> as good. Probably cheaper. Less sweet.
>>
>> Henry.
>
>
> a spoonful of baking soda in some water and drink it

Yes, that's what I used to use when having it. It worked pretty well
sometimes.

Cheri

[%]

Cheri wrote:
> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected] ...
>> Cheri wrote:
>>> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]..
>>>
>>>> cimetidine is good for heartburn if you have nothing toothpaste
>>>> helps for a while
>>>
>>> Fortunately, I don't have heartburn anymore at all, but sure used to
>>> at times. Pure misery.
>>>
>>> Cheri
>>
>>
>> i used to get it bad too , now only when i eat real spicy stuff ,
>> but i like chili peppers on spaghetti and red hot on chicken wings
>
>
> Yes, spicy food will do it especially before going to bed.
>
> Cheri


i also found i got it more often when i was 50 pounds heavier than i am now

[%]

Cheri wrote:
> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]..
>> hemyd wrote:
>>> "Cheri" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]..
>>>> "hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected] .au...
>>>>> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side
>>>>> effect of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn,
>>>>> enough to make sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read
>>>>> up enough on it. Tried taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success.
>>>>> Sip of water alleviates the symptom for a short time. I had a
>>>>> feeling that the heartburn was more likely when I didn't eat,
>>>>> than after eating. At first I suspected it was worsened by the
>>>>> tablespoonful of vinegar I was taking, but the read that the
>>>>> vinegar can be a remedy! So now I take two or three
>>>>> tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white vinegar) before going
>>>>> to bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for almost all night. I
>>>>> haven't taken Pariet for several weeks now. This is purely my
>>>>> experience. Please do your own research before
>>>>> going thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the
>>>>> same cause aas in my case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Henry.
>>>>
>>>> Don't know for a fact or anything, but I've always heard that it
>>>> was apple cider vinegar with the mother that helped with heartburn.
>>>>
>>>> Cheri
>>>>
>>> I have tried apple cider vinegar. I found that plain vinegar is just
>>> as good. Probably cheaper. Less sweet.
>>>
>>> Henry.
>>
>>
>> a spoonful of baking soda in some water and drink it
>
> Yes, that's what I used to use when having it. It worked pretty well
> sometimes.
>
> Cheri


yep its definately just a temp fix ,
now i have a prescription med for it ,
i got it right after i stopped having heartburn it anymore ,
i should've asked sooner

[Cheri]

"%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> Cheri wrote:
>> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected] ...
>>> Cheri wrote:
>>>> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]..
>>>>
>>>>> cimetidine is good for heartburn if you have nothing toothpaste
>>>>> helps for a while
>>>>
>>>> Fortunately, I don't have heartburn anymore at all, but sure used to
>>>> at times. Pure misery.
>>>>
>>>> Cheri
>>>
>>>
>>> i used to get it bad too , now only when i eat real spicy stuff ,
>>> but i like chili peppers on spaghetti and red hot on chicken wings
>>
>>
>> Yes, spicy food will do it especially before going to bed.
>>
>> Cheri
>
>
> i also found i got it more often when i was 50 pounds heavier than i am
> now

Well, yeah...that too, especially if it's belly fat that pushes up when you
sit. :-)

Cheri

[%]

Cheri wrote:
> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:vs-dnSccbfeqOjHSnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2[email protected]..
>> Cheri wrote:
>>> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected] ...
>>>> Cheri wrote:
>>>>> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]..
>>>>>
>>>>>> cimetidine is good for heartburn if you have nothing toothpaste
>>>>>> helps for a while
>>>>>
>>>>> Fortunately, I don't have heartburn anymore at all, but sure used
>>>>> to at times. Pure misery.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> i used to get it bad too , now only when i eat real spicy stuff ,
>>>> but i like chili peppers on spaghetti and red hot on chicken wings
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, spicy food will do it especially before going to bed.
>>>
>>> Cheri
>>
>>
>> i also found i got it more often when i was 50 pounds heavier than i
>> am now
>
> Well, yeah...that too, especially if it's belly fat that pushes up
> when you sit. :-)
>
> Cheri


but my belly and i had become such life long pals we depended on each other

[Nick Cramer]

"hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote:
> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side effect
> of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn, enough to make
> sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up enough on it. Tried
> taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip of water alleviates the
> symptom for a short time. I had a feeling that the heartburn was more
> likely when I didn't eat, than after eating.
>
> At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of vinegar I
> was taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a remedy! So now I take
> two or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white vinegar) before
> going to bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for almost all night. I
> haven't taken Pariet for several weeks now.
>
> This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before going
> thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the same cause
> aas in my case.

could also be PLRD (throat reflux), for which I had been prescribed
Omeprozole, but it was badly damaging my kidneys. Now just being very
careful with my diet (no acids, fats, low protein). Cabbage is supposedly
very good for one, but I haven't tried it yet.

--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://semperfifund.org https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/
http://www.specialops.org/ http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/ ~Semper Fi~
http://www.woundedwarriors.ca/ http://www.legacy.com.au/ ~Semper Fi~

[GysdeJongh]

hemyd wrote:
> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side
> effect of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn,
> enough to make sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up
> enough on it. Tried taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip of
> water alleviates the symptom for a short time. I had a feeling that
> the heartburn was more likely when I didn't eat, than after eating.
>
> At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of vinegar
> I was taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a remedy! So now I
> take two or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white vinegar)
> before going to bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for almost all
> night. I haven't taken Pariet for several weeks now.
>
> This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before
> going thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the
> same cause aas in my case.


Hi Henry,
I have had heartburn as long as I can remember. I mean from my earliest
memories. I must have been 5 years old I guess. For me it was somewhat
genetic. My daughter, father and sister have/had this condition.

Then after dx of T2 I improved my diet and lifestyle. The heartburn totally
disappeared I lost about 40kg from Jan-2005, I move more, I only eat 1
meal a day, I never snack, my "diet" is low calorie, low fat, low glycemic
index, vegetarian. Since a few years I stopped all med's and supp's. Since
my last check the dokter decided to do the checks once per year and nolonger
4 times per year. For me loosing both T2 and heartburn was a life style
choice.

Long time ago I discovered that *both* baking soda *and* vinegar
mitigated the heartburn. Which I found susprising. I can see why baking soda
works. Chemically speaking it's a base, so it will neutralise the acid in my
stomag and thus causes a relief from heathburn. At first glance vinegar is
an acid and should make the heartburn worse, not better.

However, like most things "acid" is a relative term. Vinegar behaves like a
base when in contact with the much stronger Hydro-Chloric acid in your
stomag. In fact the system HCl-Acetic Acid can be viewed as a buffer for
very low pH values : it keeps the pH in your stomag at a constant low level
which might be a lot better then the total neutralisation by baking soda or
the abolishing of HCl by proton pump inhibitors. The pH will be still low
enough to kill the bacteria in your food .

This explanation is just my 0.02, I never found any literature. I seem to
remember that Trig has posted about vinegar for heartburn. Maybe he is aware
of some other mechanism.

Gys

[hemyd]

"GysdeJongh" <JonghSevenHundredElevenAtPlanet.nl> wrote in message
news:4fad2e3c$0$30197$[email protected]. .
>
> Hi Henry,
> I have had heartburn as long as I can remember. I mean from my earliest
> memories. I must have been 5 years old I guess. For me it was somewhat
> genetic. My daughter, father and sister have/had this condition.
>
> Then after dx of T2 I improved my diet and lifestyle. The heartburn
> totally disappeared I lost about 40kg from Jan-2005, I move more, I
> only eat 1 meal a day, I never snack, my "diet" is low calorie, low fat,
> low glycemic index, vegetarian. Since a few years I stopped all med's and
> supp's. Since my last check the dokter decided to do the checks once per
> year and nolonger 4 times per year. For me loosing both T2 and heartburn
> was a life style choice.
>
> Long time ago I discovered that *both* baking soda *and* vinegar
> mitigated the heartburn. Which I found susprising. I can see why baking
> soda works. Chemically speaking it's a base, so it will neutralise the
> acid in my stomag and thus causes a relief from heathburn. At first glance
> vinegar is an acid and should make the heartburn worse, not better.
>
> However, like most things "acid" is a relative term. Vinegar behaves like
> a base when in contact with the much stronger Hydro-Chloric acid in your
> stomag. In fact the system HCl-Acetic Acid can be viewed as a buffer for
> very low pH values : it keeps the pH in your stomag at a constant low
> level which might be a lot better then the total neutralisation by baking
> soda or the abolishing of HCl by proton pump inhibitors. The pH will be
> still low enough to kill the bacteria in your food .
>
> This explanation is just my 0.02, I never found any literature. I seem to
> remember that Trig has posted about vinegar for heartburn. Maybe he is
> aware of some other mechanism.
>
> Gys
Thanks Gys! Yes, I also had heartburn in my younger days. Not as a small
child, but certainly in my 20s when I started indulging. The heartburn was
undoubtedly due to overeating and eating the wrong things. As in your case,
it disappeared after I was diagnosed Type 2 and moderated my diet. It
reappeared only recently despite my still fairly frugal diet. My wife read
somewhere that the vinegar relieves heartburn by promoting the release of
saliva in your mouth, but I disagree. Your explanation about how the vinegar
interacts with the acid in my stomach makes sense. I'd find it interesting
getting Trig's post on this.

Thanks again!

Henry.

[Ozgirl]

"GysdeJongh" <JonghSevenHundredElevenAtPlanet.nl> wrote in message
news:4fad2e3c$0$30197$[email protected]. .
> hemyd wrote:
>> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side
>> effect of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn,
>> enough to make sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up
>> enough on it. Tried taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip of
>> water alleviates the symptom for a short time. I had a feeling that
>> the heartburn was more likely when I didn't eat, than after eating.
>>
>> At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of vinegar
>> I was taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a remedy! So now I
>> take two or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white vinegar)
>> before going to bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for almost all
>> night. I haven't taken Pariet for several weeks now.
>>
>> This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before
>> going thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the
>> same cause aas in my case.
>
>
> Hi Henry,
> I have had heartburn as long as I can remember. I mean from my
> earliest memories. I must have been 5 years old I guess. For me it was
> somewhat genetic. My daughter, father and sister have/had this
> condition.
>
> Then after dx of T2 I improved my diet and lifestyle. The heartburn
> totally disappeared I lost about 40kg from Jan-2005, I move more,
> I only eat 1

I had it for years and bouts of IBS etc - worst was an overall gut pain,
years of it - press on any part of the intestinal system too and I would
feel pain. Last year? I bought a few booklets online from Sherry
Brescia. I bought her gluten free ones as I was certain that eating
wheat caused worse symptoms. She promises no pain and very quickly. Her
method is not necessarily what you eat but when and what with. Her
method is also not unique but her booklets were rather cheap. Basically
she says don't eat fruit with anything at all and with a 2-3 hour gap
either side. No carbs and protein at the same etc. Quite easy to
understand but the main thing is that pain disappeared entirely within 2
days for me. IIRC correctly there is enough info online to give someone
an idea without buying the booklets.

[Julie Bove]

"hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
news:tyfrr.701$[email protected]..
> Thanks Gys! Yes, I also had heartburn in my younger days. Not as a small
> child, but certainly in my 20s when I started indulging. The heartburn was
> undoubtedly due to overeating and eating the wrong things. As in your
> case, it disappeared after I was diagnosed Type 2 and moderated my diet.
> It reappeared only recently despite my still fairly frugal diet. My wife
> read somewhere that the vinegar relieves heartburn by promoting the
> release of saliva in your mouth, but I disagree. Your explanation about
> how the vinegar interacts with the acid in my stomach makes sense. I'd
> find it interesting getting Trig's post on this.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> Henry.

I have rarely had heartburn. I may have had it once as a teen. We were on
a camping trip and had little food with us. My mom insisted that I eat some
pepperoni which I despise. She said I needed it for protein. We then took
a very long hike and I stopped when I got chest pains. It hurt sooo badly!
I told my mom that I thought I was having a heart attack. She just laughed
and said it was heartburn. I don't really know and I guess I never will
because I was never taken to the Dr. I just remember it being a very
horrible pain around where my heart was.

So when I went to the Gastroenterologist to be checked out for
Gastroparesis, I was rather shocked to be told that not only did I have GERD
but Barrett's Esophagus! Apparently from what I have read it is very common
not to have symptoms.

The symptoms began when I was put on GERD meds. All of them caused horrid
reflux that I could feel and I think they cause some sort of permanent
damage to me because now I do get it but only occasionally. At least I
assume it is heartburn. I get a burning feeling up my throat and sometimes
it causes me to throw up.

[Chris Malcolm]

GysdeJongh <JonghSevenHundredElevenAtPlanet.nl> wrote:

> Long time ago I discovered that *both* baking soda *and* vinegar
> mitigated the heartburn. Which I found susprising. I can see why baking soda
> works. Chemically speaking it's a base, so it will neutralise the acid in my
> stomag and thus causes a relief from heathburn. At first glance vinegar is
> an acid and should make the heartburn worse, not better.

> However, like most things "acid" is a relative term. Vinegar behaves like a
> base when in contact with the much stronger Hydro-Chloric acid in your
> stomag. In fact the system HCl-Acetic Acid can be viewed as a buffer for
> very low pH values : it keeps the pH in your stomag at a constant low level
> which might be a lot better then the total neutralisation by baking soda or
> the abolishing of HCl by proton pump inhibitors. The pH will be still low
> enough to kill the bacteria in your food.

Acetic acid is chemically weaker than vinegar in the kinds of things
it can attack, and is also weaker in how strong it can be at full
strength pure concentration. But neither stomach acid nor vinegar are
these acids in pure undiluted full strength forms. According to
wikipedia, a usually good reliable source on non-controversial
scientific topics, stomach acid typically ranges between a pH (measure
of acidity) of between 1.5 and 3.5. The lower number is stronger. 7 is
neutral, and more than 7 is alkaline. According to Wiki vinegar has a
typical pH of 2.4. So it seems that vinegar in general in its normal
natural dilution is comparable in strength to normal stomach acid.

The topic of how stomach acidity is connected with heartburn seems to
be rife with misunderstanding. The problem is often supposed to be
"obviously" because the stomach acid is too acid. Not necessarily.
The problem is acid getting out of the stomach into the oesophagus
which it burns. Because the stomach is built to handle acid and the
oesophagus isn't even weak stomach acid could burn the oesophagus. The
problem could be not extra strong stomach acidity, but simply that the
acid is where it shouldn't be.

Rising stomach acidity triggers the reflex which closes the sphincter
between stomach and oesophagus. So the problem with heartburn could be
that the stomach acid is too weak, or the sensitivity of the reflex
could be too low. What would make the sensitivity too low? One
possibility is diabetic neuropathy.

So if the problem is either too weak stomach acid or too low a closing
reflex sensitivity how could it be treated? We could weaken the
stomach acid, which is the usual remedy. Or we could strengthen it,
which could activate the sphincter closing reflex. Vinegar is strong
enough to strengthen stomach acid, especially if the stomach acid is
on the weak side.

What on the other hand if the problem is that the stomach acid is too
strong? Stomach acidity is regulated by a control system. If that's
not working properly, for example gets "stuck" sometimes and needs a
nudge, then drinking something acidic like vinegar nudge it back into
operation so that it starts reducing stomach acidity. That's one of
the tricky things about control systems -- sometimes the effects of
interventions are counter-intuitive, the opposite of what you'd expect
to happen.

I can't be bothered doing a comprehensive research trawl on heartburn,
acid reflux, etc to cut through the vast amount of published
misunderstanding and speculation by health "experts" who don't
understand the science. I just want to point out there are good
simple possible explanations of the heartburn problem involving either
reflex control of the sphincter or reflex control of stomach acidity
which would narturally lead to both basic and acidic remedies to work.

Note that little word "control". Keeping stomach acid in the stomach,
and regulating its acidity, are both control problems. Control theory
is not part of the usual medical curriculum and generally speaking
doctors are rather poor at understanding control problems.

--
Chris Malcolm

[GysdeJongh]

Ozgirl wrote:
> "GysdeJongh" <JonghSevenHundredElevenAtPlanet.nl> wrote in message
> news:4fad2e3c$0$30197$[email protected]. .
>> hemyd wrote:
>>> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side
>>> effect of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn,
>>> enough to make sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up
>>> enough on it. Tried taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip
>>> of water alleviates the symptom for a short time. I had a feeling
>>> that the heartburn was more likely when I didn't eat, than after
>>> eating. At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of
>>> vinegar
>>> I was taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a remedy! So now
>>> I take two or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white
>>> vinegar) before going to bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for
>>> almost all night. I haven't taken Pariet for several weeks now.
>>>
>>> This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before
>>> going thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the
>>> same cause aas in my case.
>>
>>
>> Hi Henry,
>> I have had heartburn as long as I can remember. I mean from my
>> earliest memories. I must have been 5 years old I guess. For me it
>> was somewhat genetic. My daughter, father and sister have/had this
>> condition.
>>
>> Then after dx of T2 I improved my diet and lifestyle. The heartburn
>> totally disappeared I lost about 40kg from Jan-2005, I move more,
>> I only eat 1
>
> I had it for years and bouts of IBS etc - worst was an overall gut
> pain, years of it - press on any part of the intestinal system too
> and I would feel pain. Last year? I bought a few booklets online from
> Sherry Brescia. I bought her gluten free ones as I was certain that
> eating wheat caused worse symptoms. She promises no pain and very
> quickly. Her method is not necessarily what you eat but when and what
> with. Her method is also not unique but her booklets were rather
> cheap. Basically she says don't eat fruit with anything at all and
> with a 2-3 hour gap either side. No carbs and protein at the same
> etc. Quite easy to understand but the main thing is that pain
> disappeared entirely within 2 days for me. IIRC correctly there is
> enough info online to give someone an idea without buying the
> booklets.

Hi Ozgirl,
do you mean to say that your problem might be that the lining of your gut
can be compromised by some sort of allergic rection to the food you eat ?
This blog <http://blog.trackyourplaque.com/> thinks that wheat contains
substances (lectins) that make your gut "leaky" :

Quote :
In the simple minded thinking of the gastroenterology and celiac world, if
you don't have celiac disease, you should eat all the wheat you want . . .
and never mind about the appetite-stimulating effects of gliadin, not to
mention the intestinal disruption and leakiness generated by wheat lectins
UnQuote

There are more theories about the connection between lectins and gut
problems. I was frequently checked for all kinds of trouble. The only thing
they found was that I seem to produce more Hydro Chloric acid than the
average person. The specialist literally said : "Your ancestors probably
have eaten tubers from the mud, so for them more acid must have been a
survival factor"

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_in_Biology_Makes_Sense_Except_in_the_Light _of_Evolution>

"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" is a 1973
essay by the evolutionary biologist and Russian Orthodox Christian
Theodosius Dobzhansky, criticising anti-evolution creationism and espousing
theistic evolution.

I'm fine with vegetables and grains but the acids steams from my nose after
eating fat meat like pepperoni.

Ymmv
Gys

[hemyd]

"Chris Malcolm" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> GysdeJongh <JonghSevenHundredElevenAtPlanet.nl> wrote:
>
>> Long time ago I discovered that *both* baking soda *and* vinegar
>> mitigated the heartburn. Which I found susprising. I can see why baking
>> soda
>> works. Chemically speaking it's a base, so it will neutralise the acid in
>> my
>> stomag and thus causes a relief from heathburn. At first glance vinegar
>> is
>> an acid and should make the heartburn worse, not better.
>
>> However, like most things "acid" is a relative term. Vinegar behaves like
>> a
>> base when in contact with the much stronger Hydro-Chloric acid in your
>> stomag. In fact the system HCl-Acetic Acid can be viewed as a buffer for
>> very low pH values : it keeps the pH in your stomag at a constant low
>> level
>> which might be a lot better then the total neutralisation by baking soda
>> or
>> the abolishing of HCl by proton pump inhibitors. The pH will be still low
>> enough to kill the bacteria in your food.
>
> Acetic acid is chemically weaker than vinegar in the kinds of things
> it can attack, and is also weaker in how strong it can be at full
> strength pure concentration. But neither stomach acid nor vinegar are
> these acids in pure undiluted full strength forms. According to
> wikipedia, a usually good reliable source on non-controversial
> scientific topics, stomach acid typically ranges between a pH (measure
> of acidity) of between 1.5 and 3.5. The lower number is stronger. 7 is
> neutral, and more than 7 is alkaline. According to Wiki vinegar has a
> typical pH of 2.4. So it seems that vinegar in general in its normal
> natural dilution is comparable in strength to normal stomach acid.
>
> The topic of how stomach acidity is connected with heartburn seems to
> be rife with misunderstanding. The problem is often supposed to be
> "obviously" because the stomach acid is too acid. Not necessarily.
> The problem is acid getting out of the stomach into the oesophagus
> which it burns. Because the stomach is built to handle acid and the
> oesophagus isn't even weak stomach acid could burn the oesophagus. The
> problem could be not extra strong stomach acidity, but simply that the
> acid is where it shouldn't be.
>
> Rising stomach acidity triggers the reflex which closes the sphincter
> between stomach and oesophagus. So the problem with heartburn could be
> that the stomach acid is too weak, or the sensitivity of the reflex
> could be too low. What would make the sensitivity too low? One
> possibility is diabetic neuropathy.
>
> So if the problem is either too weak stomach acid or too low a closing
> reflex sensitivity how could it be treated? We could weaken the
> stomach acid, which is the usual remedy. Or we could strengthen it,
> which could activate the sphincter closing reflex. Vinegar is strong
> enough to strengthen stomach acid, especially if the stomach acid is
> on the weak side.
>
> What on the other hand if the problem is that the stomach acid is too
> strong? Stomach acidity is regulated by a control system. If that's
> not working properly, for example gets "stuck" sometimes and needs a
> nudge, then drinking something acidic like vinegar nudge it back into
> operation so that it starts reducing stomach acidity. That's one of
> the tricky things about control systems -- sometimes the effects of
> interventions are counter-intuitive, the opposite of what you'd expect
> to happen.
>
> I can't be bothered doing a comprehensive research trawl on heartburn,
> acid reflux, etc to cut through the vast amount of published
> misunderstanding and speculation by health "experts" who don't
> understand the science. I just want to point out there are good
> simple possible explanations of the heartburn problem involving either
> reflex control of the sphincter or reflex control of stomach acidity
> which would narturally lead to both basic and acidic remedies to work.
>
> Note that little word "control". Keeping stomach acid in the stomach,
> and regulating its acidity, are both control problems. Control theory
> is not part of the usual medical curriculum and generally speaking
> doctors are rather poor at understanding control problems.
>
> --
> Chris Malcolm
>
Thanks for the detailed explanation, Chris! Incidentally, what I call
"heartburn" may not be that. It is not reflux; it is not food coming up; it
is a sort of a "heat" I feel deep in my chest (gullet?), especially at night
and especially when I lie down. It is not triggered off by eating, as it
tends to happen when I haven't eaten for a while. Having a sip of cool water
alleviates it; so does having a nibble, actually - not that I do that often.
Since I've been having these 2-3 tablespoons of vinegar I have reasonably
peaceful nights, although I have a glass of water by my bed and still have
the odd sip in the early morning. All this started several months ago. I
hadn't experienced anything like this for over 25 years.

Henry.

[GysdeJongh]

Chris Malcolm wrote:
> GysdeJongh <JonghSevenHundredElevenAtPlanet.nl> wrote:
>
>> Long time ago I discovered that *both* baking soda *and* vinegar
>> mitigated the heartburn. Which I found susprising. I can see why
>> baking soda works. Chemically speaking it's a base, so it will
>> neutralise the acid in my stomag and thus causes a relief from
>> heathburn. At first glance vinegar is an acid and should make the
>> heartburn worse, not better.
>
>> However, like most things "acid" is a relative term. Vinegar behaves
>> like a base when in contact with the much stronger Hydro-Chloric
>> acid in your stomag. In fact the system HCl-Acetic Acid can be
>> viewed as a buffer for very low pH values : it keeps the pH in your
>> stomag at a constant low level which might be a lot better then the
>> total neutralisation by baking soda or the abolishing of HCl by
>> proton pump inhibitors. The pH will be still low enough to kill the
>> bacteria in your food.
>
> Acetic acid is chemically weaker than vinegar in the kinds of things
> it can attack, and is also weaker in how strong it can be at full
> strength pure concentration. But neither stomach acid nor vinegar are
> these acids in pure undiluted full strength forms. According to
> wikipedia, a usually good reliable source on non-controversial
> scientific topics, stomach acid typically ranges between a pH (measure
> of acidity) of between 1.5 and 3.5. The lower number is stronger. 7 is
> neutral, and more than 7 is alkaline. According to Wiki vinegar has a
> typical pH of 2.4. So it seems that vinegar in general in its normal
> natural dilution is comparable in strength to normal stomach acid.
>
> The topic of how stomach acidity is connected with heartburn seems to
> be rife with misunderstanding. The problem is often supposed to be
> "obviously" because the stomach acid is too acid. Not necessarily.
> The problem is acid getting out of the stomach into the oesophagus
> which it burns. Because the stomach is built to handle acid and the
> oesophagus isn't even weak stomach acid could burn the oesophagus. The
> problem could be not extra strong stomach acidity, but simply that the
> acid is where it shouldn't be.
>
> Rising stomach acidity triggers the reflex which closes the sphincter
> between stomach and oesophagus. So the problem with heartburn could be
> that the stomach acid is too weak, or the sensitivity of the reflex
> could be too low. What would make the sensitivity too low? One
> possibility is diabetic neuropathy.
>
> So if the problem is either too weak stomach acid or too low a closing
> reflex sensitivity how could it be treated? We could weaken the
> stomach acid, which is the usual remedy. Or we could strengthen it,
> which could activate the sphincter closing reflex. Vinegar is strong
> enough to strengthen stomach acid, especially if the stomach acid is
> on the weak side.
>
> What on the other hand if the problem is that the stomach acid is too
> strong? Stomach acidity is regulated by a control system. If that's
> not working properly, for example gets "stuck" sometimes and needs a
> nudge, then drinking something acidic like vinegar nudge it back into
> operation so that it starts reducing stomach acidity. That's one of
> the tricky things about control systems -- sometimes the effects of
> interventions are counter-intuitive, the opposite of what you'd expect
> to happen.
>
> I can't be bothered doing a comprehensive research trawl on heartburn,
> acid reflux, etc to cut through the vast amount of published
> misunderstanding and speculation by health "experts" who don't
> understand the science. I just want to point out there are good
> simple possible explanations of the heartburn problem involving either
> reflex control of the sphincter or reflex control of stomach acidity
> which would narturally lead to both basic and acidic remedies to work.
>
> Note that little word "control". Keeping stomach acid in the stomach,
> and regulating its acidity, are both control problems. Control theory
> is not part of the usual medical curriculum and generally speaking
> doctors are rather poor at understanding control problems.



Hi Chris,
you are making a few mistakes common for the general public who were not in
depth exposed to theoretically chemistry.

> Acetic acid is chemically weaker than vinegar in the kinds of things
> it can attack, and is also weaker in how strong it can be at full
> strength pure concentration

It seems to me we have here a case of :

> misunderstanding and speculation by health "experts" who don't
> understand the science

The defenition of Acid strenght does not include the *concentration* of
the acid at hand. The acid strenght is defined by it's pKa and not by it's
pH. You can loosely view the pKa as the pH of the solution if exactly half
of the amount of acid is neutralised. The stenght of Acetic Acid and Vinegar
are exactly the same!! As it should be Imo. I agree, wikipedia is a usually
good reliable source on non-controversial scientific topics. But you have to
know where to look :

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_strength>

A strong acid is an acid that ionizes completely in an aqueous solution by
losing one proton.

Common strong acids
Hydrochloric acid HCl pKa = −6.3

Weak acids
Most acids are weak acids. A weak acid is an acid that dissociates
incompletely. It does not release all of its hydrogens in a solution,
donating only a partial amount of its protons to the solution. Examples of
weak acids include acetic acid (CH3COOH) and oxalic acid (H2C2O4).

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid>

Acetic Acid has a pKa=4.8 Compare that to the one of HCl above : pKa=-6.3
!!!

Here is the Wiki page about buffers :

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_solution>

A buffer solution is an aqueous solution consisting of a mixture of a weak
acid and its conjugate base or a weak base and its conjugate acid. Its pH
changes very little when a small amount of strong acid or base is added to
it. Buffer solutions are used as a means of keeping pH at a nearly constant
value in a wide variety of chemical applications. Many life forms thrive
only in a relatively small pH range so they utilize a buffer solution to
maintain a constant pH.

There is a more general acid-base theorie : TheBrønsted–Lowry acid–base
theory

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%B8nsted%E2%80%93Lowry_acid%E2%80%93base_theo ry>

The Brønsted–Lowry theory is an acid-base theory, proposed independently by
Johannes Nicolaus Brønsted and Thomas Martin Lowry in 1923. In this system,
Brønsted acids and Brønsted bases are defined, by which an acid is a
molecule or ion that is able to lose, or "donate," a hydrogen cation
(proton, H+), and a base is a species with the ability to gain, or "accept,"
a hydrogen cation (proton). According to this theorie a buffer can be made
with a substance that can accept a proton, the Acetic anion in this case,
and a substance that donates a proton, the HCl in this case.

I agree with your observation that heartburn can be due to a lot of other
things than just too much acid in your stomag. I agree that

> reflex control of the sphincter or reflex control of stomach acidity
> which would narturally lead to both basic and acidic remedies to work

is a theoretically a possibility. Imo we should look for proof of that
theory in the literature before believing it.

Gys

[Chris Malcolm]

GysdeJongh <JonghSevenHundredElevenAtPlanet.nl> wrote:
> Chris Malcolm wrote:
>> GysdeJongh <JonghSevenHundredElevenAtPlanet.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> Long time ago I discovered that *both* baking soda *and* vinegar
>>> mitigated the heartburn. Which I found susprising. I can see why
>>> baking soda works. Chemically speaking it's a base, so it will
>>> neutralise the acid in my stomag and thus causes a relief from
>>> heathburn. At first glance vinegar is an acid and should make the
>>> heartburn worse, not better.
>>
>>> However, like most things "acid" is a relative term. Vinegar behaves
>>> like a base when in contact with the much stronger Hydro-Chloric
>>> acid in your stomag. In fact the system HCl-Acetic Acid can be
>>> viewed as a buffer for very low pH values : it keeps the pH in your
>>> stomag at a constant low level which might be a lot better then the
>>> total neutralisation by baking soda or the abolishing of HCl by
>>> proton pump inhibitors. The pH will be still low enough to kill the
>>> bacteria in your food.
>>
>> Acetic acid is chemically weaker than vinegar in the kinds of things

Oops! I should have said "acetic acid is chemically weaker than
*hydrochloric* acid!

>> it can attack, and is also weaker in how strong it can be at full
>> strength pure concentration.

>> But neither stomach acid nor vinegar are
>> these acids in pure undiluted full strength forms. According to
>> wikipedia, a usually good reliable source on non-controversial
>> scientific topics, stomach acid typically ranges between a pH (measure
>> of acidity) of between 1.5 and 3.5. The lower number is stronger. 7 is
>> neutral, and more than 7 is alkaline. According to Wiki vinegar has a
>> typical pH of 2.4. So it seems that vinegar in general in its normal
>> natural dilution is comparable in strength to normal stomach acid.
>>
>> The topic of how stomach acidity is connected with heartburn seems to
>> be rife with misunderstanding. The problem is often supposed to be
>> "obviously" because the stomach acid is too acid. Not necessarily.
>> The problem is acid getting out of the stomach into the oesophagus
>> which it burns. Because the stomach is built to handle acid and the
>> oesophagus isn't even weak stomach acid could burn the oesophagus. The
>> problem could be not extra strong stomach acidity, but simply that the
>> acid is where it shouldn't be.
>>
>> Rising stomach acidity triggers the reflex which closes the sphincter
>> between stomach and oesophagus. So the problem with heartburn could be
>> that the stomach acid is too weak, or the sensitivity of the reflex
>> could be too low. What would make the sensitivity too low? One
>> possibility is diabetic neuropathy.
>>
>> So if the problem is either too weak stomach acid or too low a closing
>> reflex sensitivity how could it be treated? We could weaken the
>> stomach acid, which is the usual remedy. Or we could strengthen it,
>> which could activate the sphincter closing reflex. Vinegar is strong
>> enough to strengthen stomach acid, especially if the stomach acid is
>> on the weak side.
>>
>> What on the other hand if the problem is that the stomach acid is too
>> strong? Stomach acidity is regulated by a control system. If that's
>> not working properly, for example gets "stuck" sometimes and needs a
>> nudge, then drinking something acidic like vinegar nudge it back into
>> operation so that it starts reducing stomach acidity. That's one of
>> the tricky things about control systems -- sometimes the effects of
>> interventions are counter-intuitive, the opposite of what you'd expect
>> to happen.
>>
>> I can't be bothered doing a comprehensive research trawl on heartburn,
>> acid reflux, etc to cut through the vast amount of published
>> misunderstanding and speculation by health "experts" who don't
>> understand the science. I just want to point out there are good
>> simple possible explanations of the heartburn problem involving either
>> reflex control of the sphincter or reflex control of stomach acidity
>> which would narturally lead to both basic and acidic remedies to work.
>>
>> Note that little word "control". Keeping stomach acid in the stomach,
>> and regulating its acidity, are both control problems. Control theory
>> is not part of the usual medical curriculum and generally speaking
>> doctors are rather poor at understanding control problems.

> Hi Chris,
> you are making a few mistakes common for the general public who were not in
> depth exposed to theoretically chemistry.

I hope not, since I was exposed to theoretical chemistry!

>> Acetic acid is chemically weaker than vinegar in the kinds of things
>> it can attack, and is also weaker in how strong it can be at full
>> strength pure concentration

> It seems to me we have here a case of :

>> misunderstanding and speculation by health "experts" who don't
>> understand the science

> The defenition of Acid strenght does not include the *concentration* of
> the acid at hand. The acid strenght is defined by it's pKa and not by it's
> pH. You can loosely view the pKa as the pH of the solution if exactly half
> of the amount of acid is neutralised. The stenght of Acetic Acid and Vinegar
> are exactly the same!! As it should be Imo. I agree, wikipedia is a usually
> good reliable source on non-controversial scientific topics. But you have to
> know where to look :

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_strength>

> A strong acid is an acid that ionizes completely in an aqueous solution by
> losing one proton.

> Common strong acids
> Hydrochloric acid HCl pKa = −6.3

> Weak acids
> Most acids are weak acids. A weak acid is an acid that dissociates
> incompletely. It does not release all of its hydrogens in a solution,
> donating only a partial amount of its protons to the solution. Examples of
> weak acids include acetic acid (CH3COOH) and oxalic acid (H2C2O4).

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid>

> Acetic Acid has a pKa=4.8 Compare that to the one of HCl above : pKa=-6.3
> !!!

Yes, my mistake -- I typed "vinegar" instead of "hydrochloric acid"!

> Here is the Wiki page about buffers :

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_solution>

> A buffer solution is an aqueous solution consisting of a mixture of a weak
> acid and its conjugate base or a weak base and its conjugate acid. Its pH
> changes very little when a small amount of strong acid or base is added to
> it. Buffer solutions are used as a means of keeping pH at a nearly constant
> value in a wide variety of chemical applications. Many life forms thrive
> only in a relatively small pH range so they utilize a buffer solution to
> maintain a constant pH.

Yes, a natural homeostat.

> There is a more general acid-base theorie : TheBrønsted–Lowry acid–base
> theory

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%B8nsted%E2%80%93Lowry_acid%E2%80%93base_theo ry>

> The Brønsted–Lowry theory is an acid-base theory, proposed independently by
> Johannes Nicolaus Brønsted and Thomas Martin Lowry in 1923. In this system,
> Brønsted acids and Brønsted bases are defined, by which an acid is a
> molecule or ion that is able to lose, or "donate," a hydrogen cation
> (proton, H+), and a base is a species with the ability to gain, or "accept,"
> a hydrogen cation (proton). According to this theorie a buffer can be made
> with a substance that can accept a proton, the Acetic anion in this case,
> and a substance that donates a proton, the HCl in this case.

> I agree with your observation that heartburn can be due to a lot of other
> things than just too much acid in your stomag. I agree that

>> reflex control of the sphincter or reflex control of stomach acidity
>> which would narturally lead to both basic and acidic remedies to work

> is a theoretically a possibility. Imo we should look for proof of that
> theory in the literature before believing it.

Of course. As I hoped I explained I wasn't believing anything. I was
just pointing out that there were more possible reasons i.e. plausible
speculations, than your suggested buffering action, which could
explain why both vinegar and baking powder work as remedies for
heartburn. I don't know if anyone has experimentally nailed any of
these speculations down.

--
Chris Malcolm

[Wes Groleau]

On 05-12-2012 04:33, Chris Malcolm wrote:
> Acetic acid is chemically weaker than vinegar in the kinds of things
> it can attack, and is also weaker in how strong it can be at full

I thought vinegar was primarily dilute acetic acid.

> Rising stomach acidity triggers the reflex which closes the sphincter
> between stomach and oesophagus. So the problem with heartburn could be
> that the stomach acid is too weak, or the sensitivity of the reflex
> could be too low. What would make the sensitivity too low? One

Or the sphincter itself is weak?

--
Wes Groleau

Is it an on-line compliment to call someone a Net Wit ?

[Wes Groleau]

On 05-12-2012 06:44, hemyd wrote:
> Thanks for the detailed explanation, Chris! Incidentally, what I call
> "heartburn" may not be that. It is not reflux; it is not food coming up; it
> is a sort of a "heat" I feel deep in my chest (gullet?), especially at night
> and especially when I lie down. It is not triggered off by eating, as it

Doesn't sound like you have what I had but for what it's worth:

My chest pains were odd. Lying down seemed to increase them; activity
(e.g., lawn mowing) seemed to decrease them. They were never extremely
intense, but intense enough for several E.R. trips, in which the verdict
was always, "Don't know, but your cardiovascular system is nearly perfect."

Eventually discovered a correlation between the chest pains and my
thyroid hormones.

--
Wes Groleau

Pat's Polemics
http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/barrett

[Oldmilret]

On Sat, 12 May 2012 12:57:55 -0400, Wes Groleau
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 05-12-2012 04:33, Chris Malcolm wrote:
>> Acetic acid is chemically weaker than vinegar in the kinds of things
>> it can attack, and is also weaker in how strong it can be at full
>
>I thought vinegar was primarily dilute acetic acid.
>
>> Rising stomach acidity triggers the reflex which closes the sphincter
>> between stomach and oesophagus. So the problem with heartburn could be
>> that the stomach acid is too weak, or the sensitivity of the reflex
>> could be too low. What would make the sensitivity too low? One
>
>Or the sphincter itself is weak?

Bingo...
My cousin had an operation to make it smaller and total relief.
If the doc makes it too small then big problems with larger pieces of
food . Basically you want someone to do it that has a very good track
record...

[Trawley Trash]

On 12 May 2012 08:33:02 GMT
Chris Malcolm <[email protected]> wrote:

> Acetic acid is chemically weaker than vinegar

Is this a typo? Vinegar *is* acetic acid diluted
to five percent in the USA. It can be as much as
twenty percent in parts of Europe.

[hemyd]

"Wes Groleau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:jom533$igg$[email protected]..
> On 05-12-2012 06:44, hemyd wrote:
>> Thanks for the detailed explanation, Chris! Incidentally, what I call
>> "heartburn" may not be that. It is not reflux; it is not food coming up;
>> it
>> is a sort of a "heat" I feel deep in my chest (gullet?), especially at
>> night
>> and especially when I lie down. It is not triggered off by eating, as it
>
> Doesn't sound like you have what I had but for what it's worth:
>
> My chest pains were odd. Lying down seemed to increase them; activity
> (e.g., lawn mowing) seemed to decrease them. They were never extremely
> intense, but intense enough for several E.R. trips, in which the verdict
> was always, "Don't know, but your cardiovascular system is nearly
> perfect."
>
> Eventually discovered a correlation between the chest pains and my thyroid
> hormones.
>
> --
> Wes Groleau
>
> Pat's Polemics
> http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/barrett
>
>
Thanks Wes! This heartburn is a sort of heat rather than a pain. Typically,
I started having it at about 5am this morning. I had breakfast (all
protein), and am up and about. the heartburn is gone.

Henry

[Chris Malcolm]

Wes Groleau <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 05-12-2012 04:33, Chris Malcolm wrote:
>> Acetic acid is chemically weaker than vinegar in the kinds of things
>> it can attack, and is also weaker in how strong it can be at full

> I thought vinegar was primarily dilute acetic acid.

It is. As I explained in my reply to Gys I meant to write "acetic acid
is weaker than hydrochloric acid". Using the completely wrong word
isn't exactly a typographical error. There should be a word for that
mistake, but I can't think of one. Put it down to senility :-)

>> Rising stomach acidity triggers the reflex which closes the sphincter
>> between stomach and oesophagus. So the problem with heartburn could be
>> that the stomach acid is too weak, or the sensitivity of the reflex
>> could be too low. What would make the sensitivity too low? One

> Or the sphincter itself is weak?

That would certainly produce the same symptoms, but wouldn't it
produce them all the time, and the remedies we're discussing fail to
work on it?

--
Chris Malcolm

[GysdeJongh]

Chris Malcolm wrote:
> Wes Groleau <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 05-12-2012 04:33, Chris Malcolm wrote:
>>> Acetic acid is chemically weaker than vinegar in the kinds of things
>>> it can attack, and is also weaker in how strong it can be at full
>
>> I thought vinegar was primarily dilute acetic acid.
>
> It is. As I explained in my reply to Gys I meant to write "acetic acid
> is weaker than hydrochloric acid". Using the completely wrong word
> isn't exactly a typographical error. There should be a word for that
> mistake, but I can't think of one. Put it down to senility :-)


Hi Chris,
senility would be too harsh Imo. Typo and slip of the tongue both seem
appropriate to me.

After all what would be left to describe the situation I found myself in
this morning : searching for my spectacles and moving around stuff to look
underneath. Which was a bit difficult with my spectacles in my right hand.

Slip of the tongue, mind being busy with more interesting things

Gys

[tedrosenberg]

Two things I had over the years
1) many years ago I had CLASSIC heart attack pains, - no heart problems.
FINALLY, they traced it to a number of micro-tears in my triceps.
Beware of holding plump babies over your head!

2) I have occasional attacks of what SEEMS to be heartburn. We THINK
that there are two causes
a) One of the medicines I take. If you don't drink enough water, and
take it on food , you can get symptoms like that
b) Post-nasel drip. When you have a sinus inflammation, and lie down,
the stuff sometimes drops into your stomach, instead of the more common
situation where it ends up in your lungs. Same pipe.

The worst case is called a Strep Throat, where your throat feels like a
blowtoarch hit it. THAT is easy to diagnose The mild cases may be
mysterious burning sensations. The goo dripping from your head is
pretty nasty stuff, and it can be almost impossible to catch,
particularly if it mainly drips when you are lying down. Try a salt
sinus wash. You can get them at any dug store. CHEAP, easy to use, and
sometimes helpful.

[hemyd]

Last night I found something else - I had this intuitive theory that the odd
sip of water at night might negate the vinegar in some way. That was
correct. I had a sip of water in the middle of the night, and the heartburn
was back! Eventually I couldn't stand it any longer, so after an hour or so
I got up and took another tablespoonful of vinegar. I felt the heat as it
went down, but then - no more heartburn... for the rest of the night and
morning. Somehow the water stops the effect of the vinegar and makes the
heartburn return.

No, I don't have a chemical analysis. I'll leave that to the gurus......
Over to you, Gys and Chris...... I'm just happy that I can overcome this new
blight....

Henry.

"hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] .au...
> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side effect
> of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn, enough to make
> sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up enough on it. Tried
> taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip of water alleviates the
> symptom for a short time. I had a feeling that the heartburn was more
> likely when I didn't eat, than after eating.
>
> At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of vinegar I was
> taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a remedy! So now I take two
> or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white vinegar) before going
> to bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for almost all night. I haven't
> taken Pariet for several weeks now.
>
> This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before going
> thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the same cause aas
> in my case.
>
> Henry.
>
>

[%]

find out what's in your water


hemyd wrote:
> Last night I found something else - I had this intuitive theory that
> the odd sip of water at night might negate the vinegar in some way.
> That was correct. I had a sip of water in the middle of the night,
> and the heartburn was back! Eventually I couldn't stand it any
> longer, so after an hour or so I got up and took another
> tablespoonful of vinegar. I felt the heat as it went down, but then -
> no more heartburn... for the rest of the night and morning. Somehow
> the water stops the effect of the vinegar and makes the heartburn
> return.
>
> No, I don't have a chemical analysis. I'll leave that to the
> gurus...... Over to you, Gys and Chris...... I'm just happy that I
> can overcome this new blight....
>
> Henry.
>
> "hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected] .au...
>> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side
>> effect of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn,
>> enough to make sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up
>> enough on it. Tried taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip
>> of water alleviates the symptom for a short time. I had a feeling
>> that the heartburn was more likely when I didn't eat, than after
>> eating.
>>
>> At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of vinegar
>> I was taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a remedy! So now
>> I take two or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white
>> vinegar) before going to bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for
>> almost all night. I haven't taken Pariet for several weeks now.
>>
>> This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before
>> going thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the
>> same cause aas in my case.
>>
>> Henry.

[hemyd]

"%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
>
> find out what's in your water
>
>
That's actually not a bad idea, %! It is plain soda water, but how plain is
plain?????

Henry.

[Ozgirl]

Supposedly one shouldn't drink with and food as it dilutes the stomach
acid. Try drinking well away from food. I found of course that the best
remedy was to separate certain foods. No protein with carbs. Fruit 2-3
hours away from any other meal (except fruit, lol). Basically toast with
jam or Vegemite, not with egg or cheese. Meat with salad and free
veggies, not with potato, corn etc. I also found a few days of a good
probiotic supplement helped "heal" my gut first.

"hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> Last night I found something else - I had this intuitive theory that
> the odd sip of water at night might negate the vinegar in some way.
> That was correct. I had a sip of water in the middle of the night, and
> the heartburn was back! Eventually I couldn't stand it any longer, so
> after an hour or so I got up and took another tablespoonful of
> vinegar. I felt the heat as it went down, but then - no more
> heartburn... for the rest of the night and morning. Somehow the water
> stops the effect of the vinegar and makes the heartburn return.
>
> No, I don't have a chemical analysis. I'll leave that to the
> gurus...... Over to you, Gys and Chris...... I'm just happy that I can
> overcome this new blight....
>
> Henry.
>
> "hemyd" <myd!!![email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected] .au...
>> About six months ago I developed what is probably yet another side
>> effect of long term diabetes - symptom is a low type heartburn,
>> enough to make sleeping unpleasant. Possibly GERD - haven't read up
>> enough on it. Tried taking Pariet tablets, with mixed success. Sip of
>> water alleviates the symptom for a short time. I had a feeling that
>> the heartburn was more likely when I didn't eat, than after eating.
>>
>> At first I suspected it was worsened by the tablespoonful of vinegar
>> I was taking, but the read that the vinegar can be a remedy! So now I
>> take two or three tablespoonfuls of vinegar (ordinary white vinegar)
>> before going to bed. That gets rid of the heartburn for almost all
>> night. I haven't taken Pariet for several weeks now.
>>
>> This is purely my experience. Please do your own research before
>> going thaat way. Also, if you have heartburn, it may not have the
>> same cause aas in my case.
>>
>> Henry.
>>
>>
>
>

[%]

hemyd wrote:
> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]..
>>
>> find out what's in your water
>>
>>
> That's actually not a bad idea, %! It is plain soda water, but how
> plain is plain?????
>
> Henry.


i'd be curious to hear , if its bubbly its got some kind of gas , gas =
heartburn

[hemyd]

"%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ...
> hemyd wrote:
>> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]..
>>>
>>> find out what's in your water
>>>
>>>
>> That's actually not a bad idea, %! It is plain soda water, but how
>> plain is plain?????
>>
>> Henry.
>
>
> i'd be curious to hear , if its bubbly its got some kind of gas , gas =
> heartburn
Thanks %. I'll try plain water in future, which is what I should have used
originally.

Henry.

[%]

hemyd wrote:
> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected] ...
>> hemyd wrote:
>>> "%" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]..
>>>>
>>>> find out what's in your water
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That's actually not a bad idea, %! It is plain soda water, but how
>>> plain is plain?????
>>>
>>> Henry.
>>
>>
>> i'd be curious to hear , if its bubbly its got some kind of gas ,
>> gas = heartburn
> Thanks %. I'll try plain water in future, which is what I should have
> used originally.
>
> Henry.



now you got me wanting to try it to see if i get heartburn ,
i get it from nearly everything else