Weird question about lotions

On Mon, 26 May 2008 12:00:18 -0400, Susan <nevermind@nomail.com>
wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Quentin Grady wrote:
>
>> As is so often the case really low doses such as found in food are
>> ultimately safer. With the diet chosen for T2 diabetics it is
>> possible that some people are getting the equivalent of low dose
>> aspirin without realising it. I say possible because it was a matter
>> under discussion when I generated some threads on matter and I don't
>> remember where the debate was left.
>
>Yes, yes yes! I eat a diet very high in food borne salicylates, without
>apparent ill effects, unless I eat so much that my tinnitus starts
>screaming, a sign of adrenal suppression. Still, the veggies and
>berries I eat are salicylate rich. But a concentration of it in drug or
>cosmetic form is a bad thing for me.

G'day G'day Susan,

Your personal experience with tinnitus may come at a most opportune
for me. It is not something with which I have personal experience but
a friend has developed tinnitus partly in response to using cotton
buds. The cotton buds caused an eczema to develop.

What if anything have you found works to reduce tinnitus?

>>
>> There are a few people who are allergic to asprin. When I get the
>> time I'll look it up again. Thought those for whom it was highly
>> relevant would be jumping up and down by now in my brief absence.
>
>A lot of folks (myself and nephew included) are told we're aspirin
>allergic when we're actually not, just aspirin intolerant due to adrenal
>effects.

OK. Let's see if I understand that.

The aspirin causes adrenal suppression which causes ... tinnitus.
Is there a functional step or two I've left out? Or is that about it?
>Susan
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

On Mon, 26 May 2008 18:40:02 +0100, Trinkwasser
<spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:

>Caffeine used to be a triggering factor

Giving up caffeine and smoking is supposed to help.

My friend neither smokes nor drinks coffee. One needs to have some
vices to give up in an emergency it would appear.
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:03:52 +1200, Quentin Grady
<quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>The aspirin causes adrenal suppression which causes ... tinnitus.
>Is there a functional step or two I've left out? Or is that about it?

Hubby has developed permanent tinnitus as a result of a previously
unknown allergy to NSAIDs - taken in bulk because of an injury to his
back.

During the day it's not much of a problem, but the noise is very
intrusive when he's trying to get to sleep at night. He sometimes uses
a cheap radio tuned to white noise under his pillow.

I had tinnitus as a consequence of high bg, at dx. I had a church-bell
chime with the #4 bell cracked - infuriating! All gone now with good
control.

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25

x-no-archive: yes

Quentin Grady wrote:
> On Mon, 26 May 2008 18:40:02 +0100, Trinkwasser
> <spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>Caffeine used to be a triggering factor
>
>
> Giving up caffeine and smoking is supposed to help.
>
> My friend neither smokes nor drinks coffee. One needs to have some
> vices to give up in an emergency it would appear.

Giving up caffeine has never helped anyone with T that I know of.

Susan

x-no-archive: yes

Quentin Grady wrote:

> G'day G'day Susan,
>
> Your personal experience with tinnitus may come at a most opportune
> for me. It is not something with which I have personal experience but
> a friend has developed tinnitus partly in response to using cotton
> buds. The cotton buds caused an eczema to develop.
>
> What if anything have you found works to reduce tinnitus?

It's complex, Quentin, depending upon how many causes or which cause the
person has. What at cotton buds? Did the person pack something into
the ears? Could need cleaning out. In addition, for me, a very high
oral dose of doxycycline initially sent my tinnitus screaming,
unbearably so, then quieted it a lot as the cranial nerve borreliosis
died off and then diminished. Years later, low carbing made the
residual, quieter tinnitus mostly disappear. It arises more when I'm
adrenally suppressed or when I eat a high concentration of salicylate,
such as pureed cauliflawer instead of roasted florets, for instance.
If the person notices diurnal variation in the tinnitus onset or
severity, that could be a hint to a hormonal influence, too.

Masking with white noise won't change the tinnitus, but will often make
it less noticable. Hypnotism helps some folks, ginkgo biloba helps very
few folks.


>>>There are a few people who are allergic to asprin. When I get the
>>>time I'll look it up again. Thought those for whom it was highly
>>>relevant would be jumping up and down by now in my brief absence.

No doubt there are, but there are probably many who are diagnosed
allergic when the real cause of the itching and hives is adrenal
suppression in those predisposed. My allergist says most folks with
diagnosed drug allergies are not allergic when he tests them. Turned
out to be the case for me with penicillins, for instance.

>>
>>A lot of folks (myself and nephew included) are told we're aspirin
>>allergic when we're actually not, just aspirin intolerant due to adrenal
>>effects.
>
>
> OK. Let's see if I understand that.
>
> The aspirin causes adrenal suppression which causes ... tinnitus.
> Is there a functional step or two I've left out? Or is that about it?

Initially, it causes back itching for me, as a child, it caused wild
behavior in him. It took very high doses for crippling arthritis I no
longer have to give me tinnitus years ago, now just a few too many
berries or other aspirin rich food does it. Any hormonal irregularity
can cause Tinnitus, at least thyroid, sex steroids, cortisol. For me,
foods that suppress me cause a temporary uptick in T, though bearable.
Not like the jet engine turbine I had in my head with the borrelia die
off years ago.

Susan

x-no-archive: yes

Nicky wrote:
> On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:03:52 +1200, Quentin Grady
> <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
>
>>The aspirin causes adrenal suppression which causes ... tinnitus.
>>Is there a functional step or two I've left out? Or is that about it?
>
>
> Hubby has developed permanent tinnitus as a result of a previously
> unknown allergy to NSAIDs - taken in bulk because of an injury to his
> back.
>
> During the day it's not much of a problem, but the noise is very
> intrusive when he's trying to get to sleep at night. He sometimes uses
> a cheap radio tuned to white noise under his pillow.

Is it actually louder at night, when cortisol is at its lowest, or just
more noticable due to the quiet of the time?

>
> I had tinnitus as a consequence of high bg, at dx. I had a church-bell
> chime with the #4 bell cracked - infuriating! All gone now with good
> control.

Good for you! I actually have one abstract in which a very low carb,
low calorie diet reversed and/or improved tinnitus in subjects.

Susan

Oddly, this posted to my newsreader without subject line

Susan wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Quentin Grady wrote:
>
>> G'day G'day Susan,
>> Your personal experience with tinnitus may come at a most opportune
>> for me. It is not something with which I have personal experience but
>> a friend has developed tinnitus partly in response to using cotton
>> buds. The cotton buds caused an eczema to develop.
>> What if anything have you found works to reduce tinnitus?
>
>
> It's complex, Quentin, depending upon how many causes or which cause the
> person has. What at cotton buds? Did the person pack something into
> the ears? Could need cleaning out. In addition, for me, a very high
> oral dose of doxycycline initially sent my tinnitus screaming,
> unbearably so, then quieted it a lot as the cranial nerve borreliosis
> died off and then diminished. Years later, low carbing made the
> residual, quieter tinnitus mostly disappear. It arises more when I'm
> adrenally suppressed or when I eat a high concentration of salicylate,
> such as pureed cauliflawer instead of roasted florets, for instance.
> If the person notices diurnal variation in the tinnitus onset or
> severity, that could be a hint to a hormonal influence, too.
>
> Masking with white noise won't change the tinnitus, but will often make
> it less noticable. Hypnotism helps some folks, ginkgo biloba helps very
> few folks.
>
>
>>>> There are a few people who are allergic to asprin. When I get the
>>>> time I'll look it up again. Thought those for whom it was highly
>>>> relevant would be jumping up and down by now in my brief absence.
>
>
> No doubt there are, but there are probably many who are diagnosed
> allergic when the real cause of the itching and hives is adrenal
> suppression in those predisposed. My allergist says most folks with
> diagnosed drug allergies are not allergic when he tests them. Turned
> out to be the case for me with penicillins, for instance.
>
>>>
>>> A lot of folks (myself and nephew included) are told we're aspirin
>>> allergic when we're actually not, just aspirin intolerant due to
>>> adrenal effects.
>>
>>
>>
>> OK. Let's see if I understand that.
>> The aspirin causes adrenal suppression which causes ... tinnitus. Is
>> there a functional step or two I've left out? Or is that about it?
>
>
> Initially, it causes back itching for me, as a child, it caused wild
> behavior in him. It took very high doses for crippling arthritis I no
> longer have to give me tinnitus years ago, now just a few too many
> berries or other aspirin rich food does it. Any hormonal irregularity
> can cause Tinnitus, at least thyroid, sex steroids, cortisol. For me,
> foods that suppress me cause a temporary uptick in T, though bearable.
> Not like the jet engine turbine I had in my head with the borrelia die
> off years ago.
>
> Susan

"Susan" <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:6a2f4fF35gdkvU1@mid.individual.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Quentin Grady wrote:
>
>> G'day G'day Susan, Your personal experience with tinnitus may come at a
>> most opportune
>> for me. It is not something with which I have personal experience but
>> a friend has developed tinnitus partly in response to using cotton
>> buds. The cotton buds caused an eczema to develop. What if anything have
>> you found works to reduce tinnitus?
>
> It's complex, Quentin, depending upon how many causes or which cause the
> person has. What at cotton buds? Did the person pack something into the
> ears? Could need cleaning out. In addition, for me, a very high oral
> dose of doxycycline initially sent my tinnitus screaming, unbearably so,
> then quieted it a lot as the cranial nerve borreliosis died off and then
> diminished. Years later, low carbing made the residual, quieter tinnitus
> mostly disappear. It arises more when I'm adrenally suppressed or when I
> eat a high concentration of salicylate, such as pureed cauliflawer instead
> of roasted florets, for instance.
> If the person notices diurnal variation in the tinnitus onset or severity,
> that could be a hint to a hormonal influence, too.
>
The only time I had tinnitus was when my thyroid was really hyper.

<snip>

On Mon, 26 May 2008 14:56:45 -0400, Susan <nevermind@nomail.com>
wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Trinkwasser wrote:
>
>> Caffeine used to be a triggering factor along with the Paxil I used
>> to take, aspirin definitely worsen it, but sometimes it's more
>> mechanical than biochemical factors at work.
>
>With tinnitus? Sure, there are lots of causes, infectious, endocrine,
>mechanical, injuries, etc...

Yes there are a metric shitload of potentially ototoxic drugs too.

>I don't have wax buildup, never have. For me, tinnitus has always been
>associated with, first, chronic CNS Lyme disease, and now, with
>endocrine see sawing. It's very, very common in thyroid disorder and
>menopause, too.

There was a thread about it long ago where people were reporting
varying degrees of tinnitus with different antidepressants. I used to
get varying levels of shash with SSRIs and more focussed pings and
whistles with venlafaxine, and when someone mentioned the effect of
caffeine several folks went Aha! self included.

I never used to get earwax but once or twice in recent years I've
noticed a decrease in high frequency hearing and an increased level of
tinnitus and discovered frighteningly large hunks of earwax lurking in
the channel. Quite where it comes from I don't know.

I think it makes the tinnitus seem louder because there's less real
sound getting in.

On Tue, 27 May 2008 09:07:14 -0400, Susan <nevermind@nomail.com>
wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Nicky wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:03:52 +1200, Quentin Grady
>> <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The aspirin causes adrenal suppression which causes ... tinnitus.
>>>Is there a functional step or two I've left out? Or is that about it?
>>
>>
>> Hubby has developed permanent tinnitus as a result of a previously
>> unknown allergy to NSAIDs - taken in bulk because of an injury to his
>> back.
>>
>> During the day it's not much of a problem, but the noise is very
>> intrusive when he's trying to get to sleep at night. He sometimes uses
>> a cheap radio tuned to white noise under his pillow.
>
>Is it actually louder at night, when cortisol is at its lowest, or just
>more noticable due to the quiet of the time?

Interesting question, I always assumed it was more noticeable due to
the quiet but I'll have to take more notice. Actually trying hard NOT
to notice it is the best thing I can do usually. Dammit. :P

>> I had tinnitus as a consequence of high bg, at dx. I had a church-bell
>> chime with the #4 bell cracked - infuriating! All gone now with good
>> control.
>
>Good for you! I actually have one abstract in which a very low carb,
>low calorie diet reversed and/or improved tinnitus in subjects.

Interesting.

x-no-archive: yes

Trinkwasser wrote:

> Yes there are a metric shitload of potentially ototoxic drugs too.

Yes, there are, but they aren't ototoxic in every patient, while they're
sometimes instantly ototoxic in others. One thing many of those drugs
share is screwing with HPA axis function, for instance.

> There was a thread about it long ago where people were reporting
> varying degrees of tinnitus with different antidepressants. I used to
> get varying levels of shash with SSRIs and more focussed pings and
> whistles with venlafaxine, and when someone mentioned the effect of
> caffeine several folks went Aha! self included.

And some folks get T relief from antidepressants. Go figure. Some get
relief from Xanax, which strongly suppresses cortisol.

>
> I never used to get earwax but once or twice in recent years I've
> noticed a decrease in high frequency hearing and an increased level of
> tinnitus and discovered frighteningly large hunks of earwax lurking in
> the channel. Quite where it comes from I don't know.
>
> I think it makes the tinnitus seem louder because there's less real
> sound getting in.

Yes, wearing earplugs has that effect, too.

Susan

x-no-archive: yes

Trinkwasser wrote:

> Interesting question, I always assumed it was more noticeable due to
> the quiet but I'll have to take more notice. Actually trying hard NOT
> to notice it is the best thing I can do usually. Dammit. :P

Yes, that's true. Sorry!!

>
>
>>>I had tinnitus as a consequence of high bg, at dx. I had a church-bell
>>>chime with the #4 bell cracked - infuriating! All gone now with good
>>>control.
>>
>>Good for you! I actually have one abstract in which a very low carb,
>>low calorie diet reversed and/or improved tinnitus in subjects.
>
>
> Interesting.

Yeah, but they confounded it by pairing both restrictions. Still, low
carb works for me without 500 calorie per day diet.

Susan

On Tue, 27 May 2008 15:27:55 -0400, Susan <nevermind@nomail.com>
wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Trinkwasser wrote:
>
>> Interesting question, I always assumed it was more noticeable due to
>> the quiet but I'll have to take more notice. Actually trying hard NOT
>> to notice it is the best thing I can do usually. Dammit. :P
>
>Yes, that's true. Sorry!!

Yeah - I'm not entirely sure I want to ask him, either!

Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 100ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.6% BMI 25

Quentin Grady <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On 18 May 2008 10:01:35 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
> wrote:

>>Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote:
>>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
>>> Nicky wrote:
>>
>>>> I really don't think you can absorb glucose through your skin - but
>>>> you sure can get a residue that mucks up your bg test! BTDT.
>>
>>> Anything you put on your skin can end up in your bloodstream. There are
>>> few more efficient ways of delivering drugs.
>>
>>The skin is designed to be an effective barrier against things
>>entering your bloodstream. Only certain chemicals with rather specific
>>properties are able to get past it, or if they are accompanied by
>>something special which can both move through the skin and carry the
>>required chemical in solution with it. That is how most transdermal
>>drugs are applied, by means of a special "transdrmal vehicle". That is
>>why you should be careful about cleanliness when using such things,
>>since anything normally harmless on your skin because it can't get
>>through may be carried through by the porting chemical.
>>
>>Aloe vera is one such transdermal vehicle. The current fashion for
>>adding it to all sorts of lotions because it's "good for you" is
>>dangerously silly.
>>
>>The often quoted efficiency of transdermal drug delivery is not
>>because it's easy to get past the skin, but because if you do get past
>>the skin you have bypassed the liver which stands guardian over what
>>is introduced orally. In cases where the liver manages to remove most
>>of a drug transdermal application is much more efficient for that
>>reason, not because it's easy in the first place to get past the skin.

> When I taught nursing students I used to place a squirt of garlic
> juice on the palm on a students hand. With their permission of course.
> This hand was then placed in a fume cupboard. Another student stood
> close to them face to face. In just fifteen seconds sometimes less
> the others student's head would snap back as the garlic breathe
> overcame them. I used it a demonstration that while the pressure pulse
> from the heart beat travels very fast, it took fifteen seconds or
> there abouts for the blood to move up the arm via the veins to the
> lungs. It surprised some students that one could marinate oneself.
> They assumed that one had to be dead meat to marinate.

Garlic is one of those things with the ability to cross fatty barriers
such as the skin. You provide the obvious reason why unlike Aloe Vera
they don't add it to ointments and patches to increase absorption :-)

This effect is not confined to the outer skin. It is also good at
crossing lipid barrier membranes inside the body, and helping soluble
substances across with it. It's likely that some of its beneficial
effects are due to this property helping the flushing out of toxins
which are sheltering behind lipid barrier membranes.

Like all such substances there is a delicate balance between helping
to flush out toxins and helping to flush them in.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Trinkwasser <spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:

> I never used to get earwax but once or twice in recent years I've
> noticed a decrease in high frequency hearing and an increased level of
> tinnitus and discovered frighteningly large hunks of earwax lurking in
> the channel. Quite where it comes from I don't know.

It;s generated continuously inside the ear. It's supposed to be the
sticky stuff that traps dirt and things which get in the ear. There's
a slow kind of conveyor belt system which gradually moves it from the
inside of the ear outwards, thus moving the dirt out. But if it gets
into a harder lump it stops moving out so easily and instead becomes a
growing waxy obstacle inside the ear.

Many people find that eating more low melting point fats, i.e. oils,
helps to improve the oiliness and reduce the waxiness of ear wax, thus
preventing the build up of waxy lumps. Taking a daily spoonful of cod
liver oil is a well known old remedy for earwax lumps.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Chris Malcolm wrote:
> Trinkwasser <spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I never used to get earwax but once or twice in recent years I've
>> noticed a decrease in high frequency hearing and an increased level of
>> tinnitus and discovered frighteningly large hunks of earwax lurking in
>> the channel. Quite where it comes from I don't know.
>
> It;s generated continuously inside the ear. It's supposed to be the
> sticky stuff that traps dirt and things which get in the ear. There's
> a slow kind of conveyor belt system which gradually moves it from the
> inside of the ear outwards, thus moving the dirt out. But if it gets
> into a harder lump it stops moving out so easily and instead becomes a
> growing waxy obstacle inside the ear.
>
> Many people find that eating more low melting point fats, i.e. oils,
> helps to improve the oiliness and reduce the waxiness of ear wax, thus
> preventing the build up of waxy lumps. Taking a daily spoonful of cod
> liver oil is a well known old remedy for earwax lumps.
>
interesting

i got an ear wax build up ONCE, 20 years ago

i had to put drops in my ear for 10 days before i returned to the Dr and
he flushed it out

boy did that hurt!!!!!!!!!!
and sounds were SO LOUD after the ear wax was gone

--
kate
type 1 since 1987
www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.diabetes-support.org.uk/n...diagnosed.html

On Tue, 27 May 2008 15:26:47 -0400, Susan <nevermind@nomail.com>
wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Trinkwasser wrote:
>
>> Yes there are a metric shitload of potentially ototoxic drugs too.
>
>Yes, there are, but they aren't ototoxic in every patient, while they're
>sometimes instantly ototoxic in others. One thing many of those drugs
>share is screwing with HPA axis function, for instance.

Interesting, I hadn't realised that. Well I knew they didn't affect
everyone the same but not why.

> > There was a thread about it long ago where people were reporting
>> varying degrees of tinnitus with different antidepressants. I used to
>> get varying levels of shash with SSRIs and more focussed pings and
>> whistles with venlafaxine, and when someone mentioned the effect of
>> caffeine several folks went Aha! self included.
>
>And some folks get T relief from antidepressants. Go figure. Some get
>relief from Xanax, which strongly suppresses cortisol.

Hmmm, I overreact to just about every benzo I ever had so have never
experienced Xanax.

>> I never used to get earwax but once or twice in recent years I've
>> noticed a decrease in high frequency hearing and an increased level of
>> tinnitus and discovered frighteningly large hunks of earwax lurking in
>> the channel. Quite where it comes from I don't know.
>>
>> I think it makes the tinnitus seem louder because there's less real
>> sound getting in.
>
>Yes, wearing earplugs has that effect, too.

Curiously mother had an appointment with the nurse just after mine
today, I hadn't realised (because she hadn't bothered telling me) she
had also been suffering with increasing tinnitus, and the nurse
flushed a surprising amount of was out of her ears too. After which
she is much improved.

Is there a market for earwax? I don't know where it's all coming from
but I sure wish we could make some profit on it . . .

. . . maybe we could market it for weight loss or something?

On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:39:45 -0600, Tiger_Lily <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>Chris Malcolm wrote:
>> Trinkwasser <spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I never used to get earwax but once or twice in recent years I've
>>> noticed a decrease in high frequency hearing and an increased level of
>>> tinnitus and discovered frighteningly large hunks of earwax lurking in
>>> the channel. Quite where it comes from I don't know.
>>
>> It;s generated continuously inside the ear. It's supposed to be the
>> sticky stuff that traps dirt and things which get in the ear. There's
>> a slow kind of conveyor belt system which gradually moves it from the
>> inside of the ear outwards, thus moving the dirt out. But if it gets
>> into a harder lump it stops moving out so easily and instead becomes a
>> growing waxy obstacle inside the ear.

Yes that's exactly it. Usually it's a thin layer which I only notice
if poking about with a finger or cotton bud, it's never generated
these big clots before.

>> Many people find that eating more low melting point fats, i.e. oils,
>> helps to improve the oiliness and reduce the waxiness of ear wax, thus
>> preventing the build up of waxy lumps. Taking a daily spoonful of cod
>> liver oil is a well known old remedy for earwax lumps.

Well I eat plenty of fish with the oil still in them and whatever else
I'm eating in the fat line seems to be working looking at my lipids,
so at the moment I'm accepting the tradeoff.

>interesting
>
>i got an ear wax build up ONCE, 20 years ago
>
>i had to put drops in my ear for 10 days before i returned to the Dr and
>he flushed it out
>
>boy did that hurt!!!!!!!!!!
>and sounds were SO LOUD after the ear wax was gone

Ain't that the truth?

like usenet with decent killfiles the signal to noise ratio doubles or
more

Trinkwasser <spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote:

: Is there a market for earwax? I don't know where it's all coming from
: but I sure wish we could make some profit on it . . .

: . . . maybe we could market it for weight loss or something?

Well, we could always sell it to the witches adn wizards associated with
Harry Potter for use in sweets:-)

Wendy

Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote:
> Nicky wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 May 2008 20:03:52 +1200, Quentin Grady
>> <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The aspirin causes adrenal suppression which causes ... tinnitus.
>>>Is there a functional step or two I've left out? Or is that about it?
>>
>>
>> Hubby has developed permanent tinnitus as a result of a previously
>> unknown allergy to NSAIDs - taken in bulk because of an injury to his
>> back.
>>
>> During the day it's not much of a problem, but the noise is very
>> intrusive when he's trying to get to sleep at night. He sometimes uses
>> a cheap radio tuned to white noise under his pillow.

> Is it actually louder at night, when cortisol is at its lowest, or just
> more noticable due to the quiet of the time?

I can't easily find any good medical references to it because
endocrinology tends to focus on the pathologies of serious
deficiences, but I do suspect (from earlier readings which I can't
refind IIRC) that either mildly low cortisol or lows in another of the
related adrenal hormones produces increased sensory sensitivity in
general, e.g. more sensitive to pain and to noise.

Having many years ago recovered from a state of serious adrenal
insufficiency to one of merely mild adrenal insufficiency my personal
experiences are certainly consistent with that idea.

Doctors tell me that what I consider my mild adrenal insufficiency is
actually "to be expcted at your age". Being eccentric physiologically
as well as intellectually I have rather different expectations of *my*
age than most doctors :-)

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

On 28 May 2008 08:14:57 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
wrote:

>Garlic is one of those things with the ability to cross fatty barriers
>such as the skin. You provide the obvious reason why unlike Aloe Vera
>they don't add it to ointments and patches to increase absorption :-)
>
>This effect is not confined to the outer skin. It is also good at
>crossing lipid barrier membranes inside the body, and helping soluble
>substances across with it.

Thought provoking. Not the sort of thing the average cook thinks
about as they crush some garlic for a meal.

> It's likely that some of its beneficial
>effects are due to this property helping the flushing out of toxins
>which are sheltering behind lipid barrier membranes.
>
>Like all such substances there is a delicate balance between helping
>to flush out toxins and helping to flush them in.

I confess I get funny vibes when people start talking about flushing
out toxins. It is the sort of discussion that spam merchant have to
induce a state of fear in potential clients who are left feeling they
must buy their detox supplements. It's almost enough to induce me to
avoid discussing the matter altogether. However Chris you don't appear
to selling any supplements so it could be the start of an interesting
conversation about which I know very little. I gather a lot of toxins
are metabolized. Some I guess are flushed out.

Best wishes,

>--
>Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Quentin Grady <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On 28 May 2008 08:14:57 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
> wrote:

>>Garlic is one of those things with the ability to cross fatty barriers
>>such as the skin. You provide the obvious reason why unlike Aloe Vera
>>they don't add it to ointments and patches to increase absorption :-)
>>
>>This effect is not confined to the outer skin. It is also good at
>>crossing lipid barrier membranes inside the body, and helping soluble
>>substances across with it.

> Thought provoking. Not the sort of thing the average cook thinks
> about as they crush some garlic for a meal.

>> It's likely that some of its beneficial
>>effects are due to this property helping the flushing out of toxins
>>which are sheltering behind lipid barrier membranes.
>>
>>Like all such substances there is a delicate balance between helping
>>to flush out toxins and helping to flush them in.

> I confess I get funny vibes when people start talking about flushing
> out toxins. It is the sort of discussion that spam merchant have to
> induce a state of fear in potential clients who are left feeling they
> must buy their detox supplements.

I regard euphemism as a nasty degenerative disorder of language, and I
regard the avoidance of appropriate terminology because it is much
used inappropriately by idiots to be a particularly insidious form of
euphemism :-)

> It's almost enough to induce me to
> avoid discussing the matter altogether. However Chris you don't appear
> to selling any supplements so it could be the start of an interesting
> conversation about which I know very little. I gather a lot of toxins
> are metabolized. Some I guess are flushed out.

You "guess"?

Come on Quentin, I'm sure you know that carbon dioxide and lactic acid
are both toxins which are produced by the natural metabolism of
muscles and which the body has complex efficient systems for flushing
away from the site of origin and transporting to an organ capable of
disposing of them! :-)

I therefore think it perfectly appropraite to talk of the ways in
which the body flushes out carbon dioxide and lactic acid from the
muscles. It also of course flushes in oxygen and glucose.

DMSO (Dimethyl Sulphoxide) is a well known solvent capable of
dissolving a wide avariety of stuff and porting it in solution across
a variety of membranous biological barriers which would otherwise have
stopped them. For that reason it has been used to deliver drugs
through the skin, and like all such transporters you have to be
careful about cleanliness because it will quite happily port into your
body all sorts of stuff you'd prefer to keep outside.

Arthritis and gout are examples of disorders where stuff which
shouldn't be there builds up inside the rather well isolated joint
capsule. It has been hypothesised that the good effects of DMSO on
such disorders are in part due to it either helping to dissolve and
transport some of the bad stuff outside the joint capsule, or else to
helping to port inside the joint some things which can help to deal
with it.

But one has to be careful with such general purpose transporters that
they don't move stuff into parts of the body where it will cause
harm. For example one of the cautions against the long term use of
DMSO is that there is risk of cataract. It has been hypothesised that
that may be a case of DMSO porting stuff into the lens which shouldn't
be there.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

x-no-archive: yes

Chris Malcolm wrote:

>>It's almost enough to induce me to
>>avoid discussing the matter altogether. However Chris you don't appear
>>to selling any supplements so it could be the start of an interesting
>>conversation about which I know very little. I gather a lot of toxins
>>are metabolized. Some I guess are flushed out.
>
>
> You "guess"?
>
> Come on Quentin, I'm sure you know that carbon dioxide and lactic acid
> are both toxins which are produced by the natural metabolism of
> muscles and which the body has complex efficient systems for flushing
> away from the site of origin and transporting to an organ capable of
> disposing of them! :-)


I have the same reaction to the phrase "flushing out toxins" that
Quentin does, so abused and overused has the phrase been by scammers.

Interesting how a perfectly normal fact of life and biology becomes an
invitation to skepticism and disbelief by conditioned response to the
frequent users of it as a snake oil spiel.

Susan

Chris Malcolm wrote:
> Quentin Grady <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>> On 28 May 2008 08:14:57 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
>> wrote:
>
>>> Garlic is one of those things with the ability to cross fatty barriers
>>> such as the skin. You provide the obvious reason why unlike Aloe Vera
>>> they don't add it to ointments and patches to increase absorption :-)
>>>
>>> This effect is not confined to the outer skin. It is also good at
>>> crossing lipid barrier membranes inside the body, and helping soluble
>>> substances across with it.
>
>> Thought provoking. Not the sort of thing the average cook thinks
>> about as they crush some garlic for a meal.
>
>>> It's likely that some of its beneficial
>>> effects are due to this property helping the flushing out of toxins
>>> which are sheltering behind lipid barrier membranes.
>>>
>>> Like all such substances there is a delicate balance between helping
>>> to flush out toxins and helping to flush them in.
>
>> I confess I get funny vibes when people start talking about flushing
>> out toxins. It is the sort of discussion that spam merchant have to
>> induce a state of fear in potential clients who are left feeling they
>> must buy their detox supplements.
>
> I regard euphemism as a nasty degenerative disorder of language, and I
> regard the avoidance of appropriate terminology because it is much
> used inappropriately by idiots to be a particularly insidious form of
> euphemism :-)
>
>> It's almost enough to induce me to
>> avoid discussing the matter altogether. However Chris you don't appear
>> to selling any supplements so it could be the start of an interesting
>> conversation about which I know very little. I gather a lot of toxins
>> are metabolized. Some I guess are flushed out.
>
> You "guess"?
>
> Come on Quentin, I'm sure you know that carbon dioxide and lactic acid
> are both toxins which are produced by the natural metabolism of
> muscles and which the body has complex efficient systems for flushing
> away from the site of origin and transporting to an organ capable of
> disposing of them! :-)
>
> I therefore think it perfectly appropraite to talk of the ways in
> which the body flushes out carbon dioxide and lactic acid from the
> muscles. It also of course flushes in oxygen and glucose.
>
> DMSO (Dimethyl Sulphoxide) is a well known solvent capable of
> dissolving a wide avariety of stuff and porting it in solution across
> a variety of membranous biological barriers which would otherwise have
> stopped them. For that reason it has been used to deliver drugs
> through the skin, and like all such transporters you have to be
> careful about cleanliness because it will quite happily port into your
> body all sorts of stuff you'd prefer to keep outside.
>
> Arthritis and gout are examples of disorders where stuff which
> shouldn't be there builds up inside the rather well isolated joint
> capsule. It has been hypothesised that the good effects of DMSO on
> such disorders are in part due to it either helping to dissolve and
> transport some of the bad stuff outside the joint capsule, or else to
> helping to port inside the joint some things which can help to deal
> with it.
>
> But one has to be careful with such general purpose transporters that
> they don't move stuff into parts of the body where it will cause
> harm. For example one of the cautions against the long term use of
> DMSO is that there is risk of cataract. It has been hypothesised that
> that may be a case of DMSO porting stuff into the lens which shouldn't
> be there.
>

ok, so how does one flush the toxins?

i've heard that term used many times with the word 'colonics' right
behind it

i'm being serious here, i would like to learn more, Chris, and i trust
you to not be a scammer

--
kate
type 1 since 1987
www.diabetic-talk.org
http://www.diabetes-support.org.uk/n...diagnosed.html

Tiger_Lily <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> Chris Malcolm wrote:
>> Quentin Grady <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>> On 28 May 2008 08:14:57 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Garlic is one of those things with the ability to cross fatty barriers
>>>> such as the skin. You provide the obvious reason why unlike Aloe Vera
>>>> they don't add it to ointments and patches to increase absorption :-)
>>>>
>>>> This effect is not confined to the outer skin. It is also good at
>>>> crossing lipid barrier membranes inside the body, and helping soluble
>>>> substances across with it.
>>
>>> Thought provoking. Not the sort of thing the average cook thinks
>>> about as they crush some garlic for a meal.
>>
>>>> It's likely that some of its beneficial
>>>> effects are due to this property helping the flushing out of toxins
>>>> which are sheltering behind lipid barrier membranes.
>>>>
>>>> Like all such substances there is a delicate balance between helping
>>>> to flush out toxins and helping to flush them in.
>>
>>> I confess I get funny vibes when people start talking about flushing
>>> out toxins. It is the sort of discussion that spam merchant have to
>>> induce a state of fear in potential clients who are left feeling they
>>> must buy their detox supplements.
>>
>> I regard euphemism as a nasty degenerative disorder of language, and I
>> regard the avoidance of appropriate terminology because it is much
>> used inappropriately by idiots to be a particularly insidious form of
>> euphemism :-)
>>
>>> It's almost enough to induce me to
>>> avoid discussing the matter altogether. However Chris you don't appear
>>> to selling any supplements so it could be the start of an interesting
>>> conversation about which I know very little. I gather a lot of toxins
>>> are metabolized. Some I guess are flushed out.
>>
>> You "guess"?
>>
>> Come on Quentin, I'm sure you know that carbon dioxide and lactic acid
>> are both toxins which are produced by the natural metabolism of
>> muscles and which the body has complex efficient systems for flushing
>> away from the site of origin and transporting to an organ capable of
>> disposing of them! :-)
>>
>> I therefore think it perfectly appropraite to talk of the ways in
>> which the body flushes out carbon dioxide and lactic acid from the
>> muscles. It also of course flushes in oxygen and glucose.
>>
>> DMSO (Dimethyl Sulphoxide) is a well known solvent capable of
>> dissolving a wide avariety of stuff and porting it in solution across
>> a variety of membranous biological barriers which would otherwise have
>> stopped them. For that reason it has been used to deliver drugs
>> through the skin, and like all such transporters you have to be
>> careful about cleanliness because it will quite happily port into your
>> body all sorts of stuff you'd prefer to keep outside.
>>
>> Arthritis and gout are examples of disorders where stuff which
>> shouldn't be there builds up inside the rather well isolated joint
>> capsule. It has been hypothesised that the good effects of DMSO on
>> such disorders are in part due to it either helping to dissolve and
>> transport some of the bad stuff outside the joint capsule, or else to
>> helping to port inside the joint some things which can help to deal
>> with it.
>>
>> But one has to be careful with such general purpose transporters that
>> they don't move stuff into parts of the body where it will cause
>> harm. For example one of the cautions against the long term use of
>> DMSO is that there is risk of cataract. It has been hypothesised that
>> that may be a case of DMSO porting stuff into the lens which shouldn't
>> be there.

> ok, so how does one flush the toxins?

> i've heard that term used many times with the word 'colonics' right
> behind it

Let's start by flushing the nonsense out of colonic irrigation.

The human colon has a very effective self cleaning system. Unless you
suffer from a rare and serious disorder of the colon nothing hangs
around for more than a few days in the colon. You're not being
poisoned by ancient rotting filth. The proof of this is very simple,
and is a procedure now very widely used in GI clinics in
hospitals. They make you fast for a day and then drink an isotonically
neutral fluid which passes straight through the gut until clear water
comes out of your bottom. That takes a few to several hours. Then they
put a camera up your bottom and look around. If you opt to stay
conscious during the procedure they'll let you look at the insides of
you own colon on a video screen.

Big surprise! It's completely pink and totally clean! Which completely
contradicts everything the colonic irrigators tell you.

Colonic irrigation is just a way of pumping your own poo out of your
bottom and scaring you with it.

> i'm being serious here, i would like to learn more, Chris, and i trust
> you to not be a scammer

I'm not referring to "flushing out the toxins" in the senses used by
the people who think you ought to drink a gallon of water a day, or
alternatively have it pumped up your butt, to "flush out the
toxins". That's health fundie and scammer gobbledegook.

"Flushing out toxins" is a metaphor derived from the toilet bowl or
kitchen sink, and properly refers to processes in which sloshing a lot
of water or cleaning fluids around will remove dirt. In the body the
blood circulation system is one of the major systems involved with
flushing stuff around. As I pointed out among other things the blood
flushes the toxin carbon dioxide out of muscle tissue and oxygen and
glucose in.

It's possible for people who have been ill or badly fed for a long
time to accumulate toxic stuff in some of their tissues, e.g. the
build up of the insectide DDT in human fat which led to its
banning. If you lose weight then some of the toxins which have
accumulated in your body fat will be released into the blood
stream. The blood circulation system will then flush these toxins
through the liver and the kidneys. The liver will break some of them
down, and the kidneys will pump some of them into the urine.

I guess all of those processes of getting rid of toxins could be
described appropriately as "flushing out toxins".

There are some chemicals which have the special property of being able
to dissolve other substances and transport them across biogical
barriers which would normally stop them. Examples are garlic, aloe
vera, and DMSO. Aloe vera and DMSO are used to transport some drugs
through the skin in patch drug delivery (there's an odour problem with
garlic :-) I guess you could call that "flushing in".

Inside the body such chemicals might help to get some toxins hiding in
inaccessible places out. I guess you could call that "flushing out
toxins". But those chemicals can't tell the difference between a bad
chemical and a good chemical, or between what we would regard as
flushing out and flushing in. If they're any good at flushing good
stuff in and bad stuff out they must be equally good at flushing bad
stuff in and good stuff out.

That is one of the problems of diuretics. They remove the strict
filtering the kidneys do so that a lot more of everything flushes out
of them. So taking a diuretic could have the effect of flushing some
toxin more quickly out of your blood into your urine. Unfortunately
it will also equally well flush out lots of good stuff too, such as
water soluble vitamins. So as with lots of medical interventions the
question is whether you are in fact badly enough poisoned for the good
effect of flushing out the toxin to be worth suffering the bad effects
of all the good stuff you can't help flushing out as well.

So are there any good ways of "flushing out the toxins"? My guess is
that the natural ways which exploit the body's natural mechanisms
rather than subvert them will work well. Examples of good "flushing
out" methods would therefore be losing excess fat and taking more
cardiovascular exercise.

Examples of subverting the body's natural mechanisms would be the use
of diuretics, or the use of "cleaning fluids" like aloe vera and
DMSO. Like drugs they have good effects and bad effects and the
question is whether in your specific condition you'll benefit more
than you'll suffer. Whether or not they happen to be made in
laboratories or in vegetables has nothing to do with whether or not a
drug is harmful or beneficial. Most of the most lethal poisons are
natural. Like knives if they're harmless they're probably no good
either.

So anyone who claims to have some sort of chemical, drug, or
supplement-based method of "flushing out toxins" is very likely a
scammer and the claims should be treated with suspicion. But although
I regard certain words and phrases as suspicious, I do not regard
suspicion as the equivalent of guilt.

In other words I refuse to permit idiots and scammers to flush out
perfectly good words and phrases from my vocabulary :-)

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Chris Malcolm wrote:
> Tiger_Lily <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>> Chris Malcolm wrote:
>>> Quentin Grady <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>>>> On 28 May 2008 08:14:57 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Garlic is one of those things with the ability to cross fatty barriers
>>>>> such as the skin. You provide the obvious reason why unlike Aloe Vera
>>>>> they don't add it to ointments and patches to increase absorption :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> This effect is not confined to the outer skin. It is also good at
>>>>> crossing lipid barrier membranes inside the body, and helping soluble
>>>>> substances across with it.
>>>> Thought provoking. Not the sort of thing the average cook thinks
>>>> about as they crush some garlic for a meal.
>>>>> It's likely that some of its beneficial
>>>>> effects are due to this property helping the flushing out of toxins
>>>>> which are sheltering behind lipid barrier membranes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like all such substances there is a delicate balance between helping
>>>>> to flush out toxins and helping to flush them in.
>>>> I confess I get funny vibes when people start talking about flushing
>>>> out toxins. It is the sort of discussion that spam merchant have to
>>>> induce a state of fear in potential clients who are left feeling they
>>>> must buy their detox supplements.
>>> I regard euphemism as a nasty degenerative disorder of language, and I
>>> regard the avoidance of appropriate terminology because it is much
>>> used inappropriately by idiots to be a particularly insidious form of
>>> euphemism :-)
>>>
>>>> It's almost enough to induce me to
>>>> avoid discussing the matter altogether. However Chris you don't appear
>>>> to selling any supplements so it could be the start of an interesting
>>>> conversation about which I know very little. I gather a lot of toxins
>>>> are metabolized. Some I guess are flushed out.
>>> You "guess"?
>>>
>>> Come on Quentin, I'm sure you know that carbon dioxide and lactic acid
>>> are both toxins which are produced by the natural metabolism of
>>> muscles and which the body has complex efficient systems for flushing
>>> away from the site of origin and transporting to an organ capable of
>>> disposing of them! :-)
>>>
>>> I therefore think it perfectly appropraite to talk of the ways in
>>> which the body flushes out carbon dioxide and lactic acid from the
>>> muscles. It also of course flushes in oxygen and glucose.
>>>
>>> DMSO (Dimethyl Sulphoxide) is a well known solvent capable of
>>> dissolving a wide avariety of stuff and porting it in solution across
>>> a variety of membranous biological barriers which would otherwise have
>>> stopped them. For that reason it has been used to deliver drugs
>>> through the skin, and like all such transporters you have to be
>>> careful about cleanliness because it will quite happily port into your
>>> body all sorts of stuff you'd prefer to keep outside.
>>