Whoe grain competition

G'day G'day Folks,

One quite startling outcome from the WHI, Women's Health Initiative
was that no change occurred in the level of grain consumption. Hidden
in there, there could have been a switch from processed grain to whole
grains but that doesn't appear to be the vibes I picked up from some
correspondence that followed its publication.

Let's assume for the moment that WHOLE grain has some benefit to all
people. Let us further assume that T2s have to approach the matter
with care. How much grain they can consume is a question that must be
answered on an individual basis. Let us further assume that for many
T2s, exercise isn't the simple solution it is for many non-T2s. Put
simply, no amount of exercise will work for some T2s and for some it
will. Some of course are limited in the amount of exercise they can
do. I'm banned from gyms for instance as my bones could shatter.

OK. Imagine for a moment that you are a T2. Yes, T1s and even
non-diabetics are invited to play. This is a game for those with
imagination and an uncompromisingly positive attitude to their fellow
man/woman. Imagine you need some WHOLE grain to be healthy and you're
on a WHOLE grain budget. The whole grain you have has to embrace that
intangible concept I call quality.

So, here is the challenge.
"How are you going to spend your WHOLE grain budget?"

Here are some suggestions I came up with.
(I'd like more as a gesture that ASD has something real to offer
people who come here.)

1. Brown rice with barley.
(The barley has a lower GI so is T2 friendly, the aim is to think like
you're a T2 and your life depends on getting simple matters right. The
brown rice provides more magnesium, other minerals and B group
vitamins.)

2. Tabouli made with cracked wheat.
That combines WHOLE grain with intense vegetable pigments from parsley
and GREEN onions, mint with olive oil for its own virtues and its
ability to extract the vital pigments. Some also include legumes such
as chick peas or lentils. Lemon juice appears to be obligatory and
that lowers GI, T2 friendly gesture.

http://www.dianaskitchen.com/page/beans/tabouli2.htm
http://www.greatpartyrecipes.com/tabouli-recipe.html


3. Multigrain Wheetbix. It has five grains: oats, sorghum, wheat, rye
and rice. It has 65% WHOLE grain content. NZ labeling isn't as strict
as it is in other places, some labeling has wheat as the first
ingredient there is nothing to suggest they are present in anything
like equal quantities.

4. Ryvita. As far as I know, this involves WHOLE rye grains pressed
into wafers.

Thank you all in advance. Let's show the little bit of the T2
diabetic world that enters here what we can do.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:50:52 +1300, Quentin Grady
<quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>G'day G'day Folks,
>
> One quite startling outcome from the WHI, Women's Health Initiative
>was that no change occurred in the level of grain consumption. Hidden
>in there, there could have been a switch from processed grain to whole
>grains but that doesn't appear to be the vibes I picked up from some
>correspondence that followed its publication.
>
>Let's assume for the moment that WHOLE grain has some benefit to all
>people. Let us further assume that T2s have to approach the matter
>with care. How much grain they can consume is a question that must be
>answered on an individual basis. Let us further assume that for many
>T2s, exercise isn't the simple solution it is for many non-T2s. Put
>simply, no amount of exercise will work for some T2s and for some it
>will. Some of course are limited in the amount of exercise they can
>do. I'm banned from gyms for instance as my bones could shatter.
>
>OK. Imagine for a moment that you are a T2. Yes, T1s and even
>non-diabetics are invited to play. This is a game for those with
>imagination and an uncompromisingly positive attitude to their fellow
>man/woman. Imagine you need some WHOLE grain to be healthy and you're
>on a WHOLE grain budget. The whole grain you have has to embrace that
>intangible concept I call quality.
>
>So, here is the challenge.
>"How are you going to spend your WHOLE grain budget?"
>
>Here are some suggestions I came up with.
>(I'd like more as a gesture that ASD has something real to offer
>people who come here.)
>
>1. Brown rice with barley.
>(The barley has a lower GI so is T2 friendly, the aim is to think like
>you're a T2 and your life depends on getting simple matters right. The
>brown rice provides more magnesium, other minerals and B group
>vitamins.)
>
>2. Tabouli made with cracked wheat.
>That combines WHOLE grain with intense vegetable pigments from parsley
>and GREEN onions, mint with olive oil for its own virtues and its
>ability to extract the vital pigments. Some also include legumes such
>as chick peas or lentils. Lemon juice appears to be obligatory and
>that lowers GI, T2 friendly gesture.
>
>http://www.dianaskitchen.com/page/beans/tabouli2.htm
>http://www.greatpartyrecipes.com/tabouli-recipe.html
>
>
>3. Multigrain Wheetbix. It has five grains: oats, sorghum, wheat, rye
>and rice. It has 65% WHOLE grain content. NZ labeling isn't as strict
>as it is in other places, some labeling has wheat as the first
>ingredient there is nothing to suggest they are present in anything
>like equal quantities.
>
>4. Ryvita. As far as I know, this involves WHOLE rye grains pressed
>into wafers.
>
>Thank you all in advance. Let's show the little bit of the T2
>diabetic world that enters here what we can do.
>
>Best wishes,

I'll take a raincheck. I'll respond after Tuesday when I can
get hold of the nutrition data for the muesli mix I use.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Alhambra
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Quentin Grady <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

> OK. Imagine for a moment that you are a T2. Yes, T1s and even
> non-diabetics are invited to play. This is a game for those with
> imagination and an uncompromisingly positive attitude to their fellow
> man/woman. Imagine you need some WHOLE grain to be healthy and you're
> on a WHOLE grain budget. The whole grain you have has to embrace that
> intangible concept I call quality.

> So, here is the challenge.
> "How are you going to spend your WHOLE grain budget?"

> Here are some suggestions I came up with.
> (I'd like more as a gesture that ASD has something real to offer
> people who come here.)

> 1. Brown rice with barley.
> (The barley has a lower GI so is T2 friendly, the aim is to think like
> you're a T2 and your life depends on getting simple matters right. The
> brown rice provides more magnesium, other minerals and B group
> vitamins.)

One of the first things I (T2, no meds, A1C 5.6) discovered when I
started testing my own reactions to my food items with my meter was
that there was so much variation between what happened to my BG
readings, and what the GI tables suggested *ought* to happen to my BG
readings, that GI tables weren't much use to me. For example, I tried
barley instead of white rice, and found no significant difference. I
also found that some vegetables which the GI tables said had the same
GI didn't for me, one would be fine, and the other would give me a
nasty BG spike.

I was very disappointed, because the idea of GI and using GI tables as
a source of useful dietary guidance had seemed really good, but I was
reluctantly forced to conclude that, at least in my own personal case,
GI numbers were personal, and there was too much difference between my
own personal GI numbers and those in the published tables for them to
be much use. My own personal GI for a food item is also strogly
influenced by how it was prepared, how long it was cooked for, and
what it is eaten with, and the time of day.

I have, howver, discovered that dal (curried lentils) in the evening
have an acceptably low GI for me. I haven't discovered whether that
property is inherent in the lentils, or due to the addition of the
curry spices and oils.

> 2. Tabouli made with cracked wheat.
> That combines WHOLE grain with intense vegetable pigments from parsley
> and GREEN onions, mint with olive oil for its own virtues and its
> ability to extract the vital pigments. Some also include legumes such
> as chick peas or lentils. Lemon juice appears to be obligatory and
> that lowers GI, T2 friendly gesture.

I'm interested in the reports that suggest that lemon juice, lime
juice, and vinegar, all reduce GI. I wonder if they do this simply
because they are acidic, and this has an effect on the digestive acid
control in the stomach, leading to slower emptying of the stomach
contents.

> 3. Multigrain Wheetbix. It has five grains: oats, sorghum, wheat, rye
> and rice. It has 65% WHOLE grain content. NZ labeling isn't as strict
> as it is in other places, some labeling has wheat as the first
> ingredient there is nothing to suggest they are present in anything
> like equal quantities.

I wouldn't even bother trying this, since I have already discovered
that wheat-free muesli with no added sugar or fruit, just rolled whole
grains and nuts, spiked my BG badly.

It's possible I could eat it in the evening, if I needed to bulk up my
whole grain budget, and the GI of many foods is substantially higher
for me in the mornings than in the evenings.

> 4. Ryvita. As far as I know, this involves WHOLE rye grains pressed
> into wafers.

Tried ryvita, and oatcakes. I can tolerate one slice of ryvita, or one
small oatcake, as a snack, provided it's the only carbohydrate in the
snack, and accompanied with butter or cheese, but not in the morning.

> Thank you all in advance. Let's show the little bit of the T2
> diabetic world that enters here what we can do.

Thinking about this idea of the whole grain budget in general
evolutionary terms, I must admit to being a little suspicious of the
idea. I notice that I do not have the teeth of a grain eater, and
suspect that my ancestors ate little if any grains before they
invented cooking fires. Generally speaking the most beneficial changes
in my diet from the point of view of both lowering BGs and general
health have come about from shifting my diet in a pre-agricultural
direction. I seem to have a hunter's metabolism which doesn't do well
on farmer's food.

A question with regard to this whole grain budget: do sprouted grains
count?

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

x-no-archive: yes

Quentin Grady wrote:

> So, here is the challenge.
> "How are you going to spend your WHOLE grain budget?"
>
> Here are some suggestions I came up with.
> (I'd like more as a gesture that ASD has something real to offer
> people who come here.)
>
> 1. Brown rice with barley.
> (The barley has a lower GI so is T2 friendly, the aim is to think like
> you're a T2 and your life depends on getting simple matters right. The
> brown rice provides more magnesium, other minerals and B group
> vitamins.)
>
> 2. Tabouli made with cracked wheat.
> That combines WHOLE grain with intense vegetable pigments from parsley
> and GREEN onions, mint with olive oil for its own virtues and its
> ability to extract the vital pigments. Some also include legumes such
> as chick peas or lentils. Lemon juice appears to be obligatory and
> that lowers GI, T2 friendly gesture.

Quentin, I'm not sure all T2 DMs have a whole grain budget.
Anecdotally, even a net of 2-4 grams of coarse wheat with fiber spikes
me out of all proportion, much higher than 10 grams from leafy veggies,
for example.

The only grain exception in my case is whole kernel, not just whole
grain, rye. But even that spikes me, just takes more than 2-4 grams,
it's more like 10.

Susan

"Quentin Grady" <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:es5ej25jdngrm3diio4vteoaeuajdgjkeb@4ax.com...
.. How much grain they can consume is a question that must be
> answered on an individual basis.


and for each individual that amount will change over time.
depending upon how much they improve their health.

when i was diagnosed i needed to take medications for even a small amount of
carbs
45 per meal 200 a day. now 4 years later I no longer need any medications
and can handle more carbs.


Let us further assume that for many
> T2s, exercise isn't the simple solution it is for many non-T2s. Put
> simply, no amount of exercise will work for some T2s and for some it
> will.

First off i would never assume that.
I have not met any type 2 diabetics that can answer that. looking at the
picture gallery for
this group it doesnt look like there is all that much exercise going on. is
that an insult? NO
if you really do the right amount of exercise your body will show it. if
all you do is say you exercise that doesnt really count.


>Some of course are limited in the amount of exercise they can
> do. I'm banned from gyms for instance as my bones could shatter.

as i would assume many others in here are also very limited with the amount
of exercise they can do.
I to was very limited in what i could do 4 years ago. hell i couldnt even
walk 1 block with out having to stop because of pains in my ankle. i fought
and did pretty good.
there were even threads i created - Toms exercise diary that shows a bit of
what i worked up to doing. i have since fell back into the comfort zone.
even still i am more active than most in here.
i remember how when i talked about my exercise people in here talked about
it like it was hell on earth.
i still feel here on the internet we can never know the fulls story of those
newbies that post here.
and the best we can do is help them to work with their doctors. but there
are those that get religious about diet and wont stand for it .

Tom

Quentin Grady <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
: G'day G'day Folks,

: One quite startling outcome from the WHI, Women's Health Initiative
: was that no change occurred in the level of grain consumption. Hidden
: in there, there could have been a switch from processed grain to whole
: grains but that doesn't appear to be the vibes I picked up from some
: correspondence that followed its publication.

: Let's assume for the moment that WHOLE grain has some benefit to all
: people. Let us further assume that T2s have to approach the matter
: with care. How much grain they can consume is a question that must be
: answered on an individual basis. Let us further assume that for many
: T2s, exercise isn't the simple solution it is for many non-T2s. Put
: simply, no amount of exercise will work for some T2s and for some it
: will. Some of course are limited in the amount of exercise they can
: do. I'm banned from gyms for instance as my bones could shatter.

: OK. Imagine for a moment that you are a T2. Yes, T1s and even
: non-diabetics are invited to play. This is a game for those with
: imagination and an uncompromisingly positive attitude to their fellow
: man/woman. Imagine you need some WHOLE grain to be healthy and you're
: on a WHOLE grain budget. The whole grain you have has to embrace that
: intangible concept I call quality.

: So, here is the challenge.
: "How are you going to spend your WHOLE grain budget?"

: Here are some suggestions I came up with.
: (I'd like more as a gesture that ASD has something real to offer
: people who come here.)

: 1. Brown rice with barley.
: (The barley has a lower GI so is T2 friendly, the aim is to think like
: you're a T2 and your life depends on getting simple matters right. The
: brown rice provides more magnesium, other minerals and B group
: vitamins.)

: 2. Tabouli made with cracked wheat.
: That combines WHOLE grain with intense vegetable pigments from parsley
: and GREEN onions, mint with olive oil for its own virtues and its
: ability to extract the vital pigments. Some also include legumes such
: as chick peas or lentils. Lemon juice appears to be obligatory and
: that lowers GI, T2 friendly gesture.
:
: http://www.dianaskitchen.com/page/beans/tabouli2.htm
: http://www.greatpartyrecipes.com/tabouli-recipe.html


: 3. Multigrain Wheetbix. It has five grains: oats, sorghum, wheat, rye
: and rice. It has 65% WHOLE grain content. NZ labeling isn't as strict
: as it is in other places, some labeling has wheat as the first
: ingredient there is nothing to suggest they are present in anything
: like equal quantities.

: 4. Ryvita. As far as I know, this involves WHOLE rye grains pressed
: into wafers.

: Thank you all in advance. Let's show the little bit of the T2
: diabetic world that enters here what we can do.

: Best wishes,
: --
: Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
: New Zealand, >#,#< [
: / \ /\
: "... and the blind dog was leading."

: http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

I limit my grain intake greatly, but I do use either the whole rye grain
Wasa or the Ryevita crackers with some regularity. They are a componenet
of my egg andsmoked salmon breakfasts and I usse them as snaks when my BG
numbers allow. In general, I eat an average of 3 a day. They are not
wildely expensive and are easy to use.

Since I prefer fruit as my carb of dinner choice, I seldon eat brley or
brown rice except for a little barley in some soups or a lttle brown rice
on my very ocasional forays to Chinese restaurants.

This works for me and I do stick to the whole grains as aresult of what I
have learned from you, Quentin, and others on this group.

Wendy

Susan wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Quentin Grady wrote:
>
> > So, here is the challenge.
> > "How are you going to spend your WHOLE grain budget?"
> >
> > Here are some suggestions I came up with.
> > (I'd like more as a gesture that ASD has something real to offer
> > people who come here.)
> >
> > 1. Brown rice with barley.
> > (The barley has a lower GI so is T2 friendly, the aim is to think like
> > you're a T2 and your life depends on getting simple matters right. The
> > brown rice provides more magnesium, other minerals and B group
> > vitamins.)
> >
> > 2. Tabouli made with cracked wheat.
> > That combines WHOLE grain with intense vegetable pigments from parsley
> > and GREEN onions, mint with olive oil for its own virtues and its
> > ability to extract the vital pigments. Some also include legumes such
> > as chick peas or lentils. Lemon juice appears to be obligatory and
> > that lowers GI, T2 friendly gesture.
>
> Quentin, I'm not sure all T2 DMs have a whole grain budget.
> Anecdotally, even a net of 2-4 grams of coarse wheat with fiber spikes
> me out of all proportion, much higher than 10 grams from leafy veggies,
> for example.
>
> The only grain exception in my case is whole kernel, not just whole
> grain, rye. But even that spikes me, just takes more than 2-4 grams,
> it's more like 10.


Here is one of the main problems with this group, not just because
Susan wrote it but because it illustrates so concisely what many in
here do. "I can't eat this so therefore it is not advisable." A
newbie reads this and begins to wonder if they too should cut out all
kinds of whole grains, or carbs, or meats, or etc. because they have
read that others can't.

The X factor here is the individual, in every sense of the word. Many
here have other medical conditions and lifestyle conditions besides
diabetes. Those conditions should be mentioned in every discussion by
that person when giving anecdotal advice and information. If one has
other medical conditions, or doesn't exercise much, and exclaims how
they can't handle more than say 30 carbs a day, or that certain foods
"spike" them, then they have the obligation to give a bit more insight
as to why that may be the case for them, but not someone else. Truly
it's the responsible thing to do.

YMMV is as inadequate of a statement as "eat to your meter" in someone
reading the advice given here.

IMO of course...

Kurt

"Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161275648.637361.120210@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
>
> Susan wrote:
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
>> Quentin Grady wrote:
>>
>> > So, here is the challenge.
>> > "How are you going to spend your WHOLE grain budget?"
>> >
>> > Here are some suggestions I came up with.
>> > (I'd like more as a gesture that ASD has something real to offer
>> > people who come here.)
>> >
>> > 1. Brown rice with barley.
>> > (The barley has a lower GI so is T2 friendly, the aim is to think like
>> > you're a T2 and your life depends on getting simple matters right. The
>> > brown rice provides more magnesium, other minerals and B group
>> > vitamins.)
>> >
>> > 2. Tabouli made with cracked wheat.
>> > That combines WHOLE grain with intense vegetable pigments from parsley
>> > and GREEN onions, mint with olive oil for its own virtues and its
>> > ability to extract the vital pigments. Some also include legumes such
>> > as chick peas or lentils. Lemon juice appears to be obligatory and
>> > that lowers GI, T2 friendly gesture.
>>
>> Quentin, I'm not sure all T2 DMs have a whole grain budget.
>> Anecdotally, even a net of 2-4 grams of coarse wheat with fiber spikes
>> me out of all proportion, much higher than 10 grams from leafy veggies,
>> for example.
>>
>> The only grain exception in my case is whole kernel, not just whole
>> grain, rye. But even that spikes me, just takes more than 2-4 grams,
>> it's more like 10.
>
>
> Here is one of the main problems with this group, not just because
> Susan wrote it but because it illustrates so concisely what many in
> here do. "I can't eat this so therefore it is not advisable."

and she is so inactive that according to her own posts she only requires
1000 calories a day.

A
> newbie reads this and begins to wonder if they too should cut out all
> kinds of whole grains, or carbs, or meats, or etc. because they have
> read that others can't.


yes i do feel sorry for the newbies that come here and dont realize the
agenda
many in here have.

>
> The X factor here is the individual, in every sense of the word.

and every individual will need to change things over time.
they can get healthier and more active and require more calories
or become less active and require very little calories. not sure what the
calorie
requirements are for a comma patient is but some here require a little more
than that.


Many
> here have other medical conditions and lifestyle conditions besides
> diabetes. Those conditions should be mentioned in every discussion by
> that person when giving anecdotal advice and information.

this is one of the things that bothers me most about the many in here.


If one has
> other medical conditions, or doesn't exercise much, and exclaims how
> they can't handle more than say 30 carbs a day, or that certain foods
> "spike" them, then they have the obligation to give a bit more insight
> as to why that may be the case for them, but not someone else. Truly
> it's the responsible thing to do.

it would be the honest thing to do.


>
> YMMV is as inadequate of a statement as "eat to your meter" in someone
> reading the advice given here.
>
> IMO of course...
>
> Kurt

not to mention that we can never know the full story from the posts newbies
make.
ide like to suggest your post be put on ASD's web site.

Tom

Kurt <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote:

: Susan wrote:
: > x-no-archive: yes
: >
: >
: > Quentin, I'm not sure all T2 DMs have a whole grain budget.
: > Anecdotally, even a net of 2-4 grams of coarse wheat with fiber spikes
: > me out of all proportion, much higher than 10 grams from leafy veggies,
: > for example.
: >
: > The only grain exception in my case is whole kernel, not just whole
: > grain, rye. But even that spikes me, just takes more than 2-4 grams,
: > it's more like 10.


: Here is one of the main problems with this group, not just because
: Susan wrote it but because it illustrates so concisely what many in
: here do. "I can't eat this so therefore it is not advisable." A
: newbie reads this and begins to wonder if they too should cut out all
: kinds of whole grains, or carbs, or meats, or etc. because they have
: read that others can't.

Kurt,
You did not read what Susan said and , in fact, probably, you bth agree on
this. Susan did NOT say that NO type 2's have a whole grain budget, but
she said she is "not sure tht ALL type 2's have a whole grain budget." In
plain English, this is saing that SOME type 2's don't have a whole grain
budget so watch and know yourself and your tolerances, which seems to be
much what you were saying with all your talk about individual differences.

It is not a good idea to just jump because someone you disagree with
generlly posts without carefully reading what is actually said. Not all
is not the same as none, it actually means some and in most cases, few or
at least fewer than those tht do have such a budget.

Wendy

x-no-archive: yes

W. Baker wrote:

> Kurt,
> You did not read what Susan said and , in fact, probably, you bth agree on
> this. Susan did NOT say that NO type 2's have a whole grain budget, but
> she said she is "not sure tht ALL type 2's have a whole grain budget." In
> plain English, this is saing that SOME type 2's don't have a whole grain
> budget so watch and know yourself and your tolerances, which seems to be
> much what you were saying with all your talk about individual differences.
>
> It is not a good idea to just jump because someone you disagree with
> generlly posts without carefully reading what is actually said. Not all
> is not the same as none, it actually means some and in most cases, few or
> at least fewer than those tht do have such a budget.
>
> Wendy

Wendy, those without limitations on their reading comprehension will
understand what "not all" means, and extrapolate what I intended by
specifying that I was merely relating personal anecdote, nothing more
generally applicable, to illustrate.

It was by way of discussion, certainly did not contain any hint of a
dietary recommendation. We're still allowed to share our experiences
here, and folks who participate in the spirit of mutual self help and
support welcome personal anecdotes.

I appreciate your thoughful intervention, but I'm not sure it's
necessary. I think other readers here are discerning, too.

Susan

"W. Baker" <wbaker@panix.com> wrote in message
news:eh8b6p$f6o$1@reader2.panix.com...
> Kurt <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> : Susan wrote:
> : > x-no-archive: yes
> : >
> : >
> : > Quentin, I'm not sure all T2 DMs have a whole grain budget.
> : > Anecdotally, even a net of 2-4 grams of coarse wheat with fiber spikes
> : > me out of all proportion, much higher than 10 grams from leafy
> veggies,
> : > for example.
> : >
> : > The only grain exception in my case is whole kernel, not just whole
> : > grain, rye. But even that spikes me, just takes more than 2-4 grams,
> : > it's more like 10.
>
>
> : Here is one of the main problems with this group, not just because
> : Susan wrote it but because it illustrates so concisely what many in
> : here do. "I can't eat this so therefore it is not advisable." A
> : newbie reads this and begins to wonder if they too should cut out all
> : kinds of whole grains, or carbs, or meats, or etc. because they have
> : read that others can't.
>
> Kurt,
> You did not read what Susan said and , in fact, probably, you bth agree on
> this. Susan did NOT say that NO type 2's have a whole grain budget, but
> she said she is "not sure tht ALL type 2's have a whole grain budget." In
> plain English, this is saing that SOME type 2's don't have a whole grain
> budget so watch and know yourself and your tolerances, which seems to be
> much what you were saying with all your talk about individual differences.


Wendy
after reading what you wrote i am not even sure you read susan's post.
or for that matter if you even read Kurts post.
your reply just doent seem to fit the posts you are talking about.



>
> It is not a good idea to just jump because someone you disagree with
> generlly posts without carefully reading what is actually said. Not all
> is not the same as none, it actually means some and in most cases, few or
> at least fewer than those tht do have such a budget.
>
> Wendy

its pretty easy for newbies to see how those in here feel about diabetics
eating a diet rich in whole grains
or should i dare say it "low fat diet"

Tom

W. Baker wrote:
:: Kurt <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote:
::
::: Susan wrote:
:::: x-no-archive: yes
::::
::::
:::: Quentin, I'm not sure all T2 DMs have a whole grain budget.
:::: Anecdotally, even a net of 2-4 grams of coarse wheat with fiber
:::: spikes me out of all proportion, much higher than 10 grams from
:::: leafy veggies, for example.
::::
:::: The only grain exception in my case is whole kernel, not just whole
:::: grain, rye. But even that spikes me, just takes more than 2-4
:::: grams, it's more like 10.
::
::
::: Here is one of the main problems with this group, not just because
::: Susan wrote it but because it illustrates so concisely what many in
::: here do. "I can't eat this so therefore it is not advisable." A
::: newbie reads this and begins to wonder if they too should cut out
::: all kinds of whole grains, or carbs, or meats, or etc. because they
::: have read that others can't.
::
:: Kurt,
:: You did not read what Susan said and , in fact, probably, you bth
:: agree on this. Susan did NOT say that NO type 2's have a whole
:: grain budget, but she said she is "not sure tht ALL type 2's have a
:: whole grain budget." In plain English, this is saing that SOME type
:: 2's don't have a whole grain budget so watch and know yourself and
:: your tolerances, which seems to be much what you were saying with
:: all your talk about individual differences.
::
:: It is not a good idea to just jump because someone you disagree with
:: generlly posts without carefully reading what is actually said. Not
:: all is not the same as none, it actually means some and in most
:: cases, few or at least fewer than those tht do have such a budget.

Try as you might, Wendy, to explain reason to Kurt. It won't work since he
is hell bent on fostering his own misguided agenda. He will, and does, use
any half-baked example he can find to promote his POV and always fails to be
effective. Curious.

W. Baker wrote:
> Kurt <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> : Susan wrote:
> : > x-no-archive: yes
> : >
> : >
> : > Quentin, I'm not sure all T2 DMs have a whole grain budget.
> : > Anecdotally, even a net of 2-4 grams of coarse wheat with fiber spikes
> : > me out of all proportion, much higher than 10 grams from leafy veggies,
> : > for example.
> : >
> : > The only grain exception in my case is whole kernel, not just whole
> : > grain, rye. But even that spikes me, just takes more than 2-4 grams,
> : > it's more like 10.
>
>
> : Here is one of the main problems with this group, not just because
> : Susan wrote it but because it illustrates so concisely what many in
> : here do. "I can't eat this so therefore it is not advisable." A
> : newbie reads this and begins to wonder if they too should cut out all
> : kinds of whole grains, or carbs, or meats, or etc. because they have
> : read that others can't.
>
> Kurt,
> You did not read what Susan said and , in fact, probably, you bth agree on
> this. Susan did NOT say that NO type 2's have a whole grain budget, but
> she said she is "not sure tht ALL type 2's have a whole grain budget." In
> plain English, this is saing that SOME type 2's don't have a whole grain
> budget so watch and know yourself and your tolerances, which seems to be
> much what you were saying with all your talk about individual differences.
>
> It is not a good idea to just jump because someone you disagree with
> generlly posts without carefully reading what is actually said. Not all
> is not the same as none, it actually means some and in most cases, few or
> at least fewer than those tht do have such a budget.

I read what Susan wrote and stand by my response. Of course "not
everyone can do anyone thing" but it was just another hidden attack at
carbs in general. Funny how you never have the same moral indignation
when others seem to do the same thing you have accused me of.

You also snipped the main point of my post, not sure why...

"The X factor here is the individual, in every sense of the word. Many

here have other medical conditions and lifestyle conditions besides
diabetes. Those conditions should be mentioned in every discussion by
that person when giving anecdotal advice and information. If one has
other medical conditions, or doesn't exercise much, and exclaims how
they can't handle more than say 30 carbs a day, or that certain foods
"spike" them, then they have the obligation to give a bit more insight
as to why that may be the case for them, but not someone else. Truly
it's the responsible thing to do."

Would like to hear you response to that. Do you feel that someone with
many other medical conditions besides diabetes should declare that
their advice about diabetes is tainted because of those conditions? If
someone says "I only eat 30 carbs a day" with the snooty attitude that
they are doing the responsible thing and others who follow a disimilar
diet aren't, should they not also explain that they don't exercise or
have conditions that require them to follow such an austere diet?

Kurt

Roger Zoul wrote:
> W. Baker wrote:
> :: Kurt <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ::
> ::: Susan wrote:
> :::: x-no-archive: yes
> ::::
> ::::
> :::: Quentin, I'm not sure all T2 DMs have a whole grain budget.
> :::: Anecdotally, even a net of 2-4 grams of coarse wheat with fiber
> :::: spikes me out of all proportion, much higher than 10 grams from
> :::: leafy veggies, for example.
> ::::
> :::: The only grain exception in my case is whole kernel, not just whole
> :::: grain, rye. But even that spikes me, just takes more than 2-4
> :::: grams, it's more like 10.
> ::
> ::
> ::: Here is one of the main problems with this group, not just because
> ::: Susan wrote it but because it illustrates so concisely what many in
> ::: here do. "I can't eat this so therefore it is not advisable." A
> ::: newbie reads this and begins to wonder if they too should cut out
> ::: all kinds of whole grains, or carbs, or meats, or etc. because they
> ::: have read that others can't.
> ::
> :: Kurt,
> :: You did not read what Susan said and , in fact, probably, you bth
> :: agree on this. Susan did NOT say that NO type 2's have a whole
> :: grain budget, but she said she is "not sure tht ALL type 2's have a
> :: whole grain budget." In plain English, this is saing that SOME type
> :: 2's don't have a whole grain budget so watch and know yourself and
> :: your tolerances, which seems to be much what you were saying with
> :: all your talk about individual differences.
> ::
> :: It is not a good idea to just jump because someone you disagree with
> :: generlly posts without carefully reading what is actually said. Not
> :: all is not the same as none, it actually means some and in most
> :: cases, few or at least fewer than those tht do have such a budget.
>
> Try as you might, Wendy, to explain reason to Kurt. It won't work since he
> is hell bent on fostering his own misguided agenda. He will, and does, use
> any half-baked example he can find to promote his POV and always fails to be
> effective. Curious.

Says Curious Roger, the man who came into this newsgroup looking for a
fight because he said he was "bored." A man who is so much smarter
than doctors that he gets all of his medical information out of a book.
Look for his new autobiography "The Man Who Performed Open Heart
Surgery On Himself: The Roger Zoul Story"!

Really, Roger, your zingers have little effect on me because I lost all
respect for you months ago. But nice to see you are reduced to taking
potshots at me from the bushes. It saves us both the hassle of
engaging in an actual point-counterpoint discussion.

Kurt

On 19 Oct 2006 11:06:41 -0700, "Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>W. Baker wrote:
>> Kurt <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> : Susan wrote:
>> : > x-no-archive: yes
>> : >
>> : >
>> : > Quentin, I'm not sure all T2 DMs have a whole grain budget.
>> : > Anecdotally, even a net of 2-4 grams of coarse wheat with fiber spikes
>> : > me out of all proportion, much higher than 10 grams from leafy veggies,
>> : > for example.
>> : >
>> : > The only grain exception in my case is whole kernel, not just whole
>> : > grain, rye. But even that spikes me, just takes more than 2-4 grams,
>> : > it's more like 10.
>>
>>
>> : Here is one of the main problems with this group, not just because
>> : Susan wrote it but because it illustrates so concisely what many in
>> : here do. "I can't eat this so therefore it is not advisable." A
>> : newbie reads this and begins to wonder if they too should cut out all
>> : kinds of whole grains, or carbs, or meats, or etc. because they have
>> : read that others can't.
>>
>> Kurt,
>> You did not read what Susan said and , in fact, probably, you bth agree on
>> this. Susan did NOT say that NO type 2's have a whole grain budget, but
>> she said she is "not sure tht ALL type 2's have a whole grain budget." In
>> plain English, this is saing that SOME type 2's don't have a whole grain
>> budget so watch and know yourself and your tolerances, which seems to be
>> much what you were saying with all your talk about individual differences.
>>
>> It is not a good idea to just jump because someone you disagree with
>> generlly posts without carefully reading what is actually said. Not all
>> is not the same as none, it actually means some and in most cases, few or
>> at least fewer than those tht do have such a budget.
>
>I read what Susan wrote and stand by my response. Of course "not
>everyone can do anyone thing" but it was just another hidden attack at
>carbs in general. Funny how you never have the same moral indignation
>when others seem to do the same thing you have accused me of.
>
>You also snipped the main point of my post, not sure why...
>
>"The X factor here is the individual, in every sense of the word. Many
>
>here have other medical conditions and lifestyle conditions besides
>diabetes. Those conditions should be mentioned in every discussion by
>that person when giving anecdotal advice and information. If one has
>other medical conditions, or doesn't exercise much, and exclaims how
>they can't handle more than say 30 carbs a day, or that certain foods
>"spike" them, then they have the obligation to give a bit more insight
>as to why that may be the case for them, but not someone else. Truly
>it's the responsible thing to do."
>
>Would like to hear you response to that. Do you feel that someone with
>many other medical conditions besides diabetes should declare that
>their advice about diabetes is tainted because of those conditions? If
>someone says "I only eat 30 carbs a day" with the snooty attitude that
>they are doing the responsible thing and others who follow a disimilar
>diet aren't, should they not also explain that they don't exercise or
>have conditions that require them to follow such an austere diet?
>
>Kurt

And yet you didn't seem to feel that way in the "Higher carbohydrate
diet raises BP in type 2 DM", when you wrote:
>"My doctor tells me I have the blood pressure of an athlete. Sssh,
>don't tell him I eat carbohydrates."

without mentioning that you are T1, even though the subject header was
specifically about T2.

--bittersweet

bittersweet wrote:
> On 19 Oct 2006 11:06:41 -0700, "Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >W. Baker wrote:
> >> Kurt <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> : Susan wrote:
> >> : > x-no-archive: yes
> >> : >
> >> : >
> >> : > Quentin, I'm not sure all T2 DMs have a whole grain budget.
> >> : > Anecdotally, even a net of 2-4 grams of coarse wheat with fiber spikes
> >> : > me out of all proportion, much higher than 10 grams from leafy veggies,
> >> : > for example.
> >> : >
> >> : > The only grain exception in my case is whole kernel, not just whole
> >> : > grain, rye. But even that spikes me, just takes more than 2-4 grams,
> >> : > it's more like 10.
> >>
> >>
> >> : Here is one of the main problems with this group, not just because
> >> : Susan wrote it but because it illustrates so concisely what many in
> >> : here do. "I can't eat this so therefore it is not advisable." A
> >> : newbie reads this and begins to wonder if they too should cut out all
> >> : kinds of whole grains, or carbs, or meats, or etc. because they have
> >> : read that others can't.
> >>
> >> Kurt,
> >> You did not read what Susan said and , in fact, probably, you bth agree on
> >> this. Susan did NOT say that NO type 2's have a whole grain budget, but
> >> she said she is "not sure tht ALL type 2's have a whole grain budget." In
> >> plain English, this is saing that SOME type 2's don't have a whole grain
> >> budget so watch and know yourself and your tolerances, which seems to be
> >> much what you were saying with all your talk about individual differences.
> >>
> >> It is not a good idea to just jump because someone you disagree with
> >> generlly posts without carefully reading what is actually said. Not all
> >> is not the same as none, it actually means some and in most cases, few or
> >> at least fewer than those tht do have such a budget.
> >
> >I read what Susan wrote and stand by my response. Of course "not
> >everyone can do anyone thing" but it was just another hidden attack at
> >carbs in general. Funny how you never have the same moral indignation
> >when others seem to do the same thing you have accused me of.
> >
> >You also snipped the main point of my post, not sure why...
> >
> >"The X factor here is the individual, in every sense of the word. Many
> >
> >here have other medical conditions and lifestyle conditions besides
> >diabetes. Those conditions should be mentioned in every discussion by
> >that person when giving anecdotal advice and information. If one has
> >other medical conditions, or doesn't exercise much, and exclaims how
> >they can't handle more than say 30 carbs a day, or that certain foods
> >"spike" them, then they have the obligation to give a bit more insight
> >as to why that may be the case for them, but not someone else. Truly
> >it's the responsible thing to do."
> >
> >Would like to hear you response to that. Do you feel that someone with
> >many other medical conditions besides diabetes should declare that
> >their advice about diabetes is tainted because of those conditions? If
> >someone says "I only eat 30 carbs a day" with the snooty attitude that
> >they are doing the responsible thing and others who follow a disimilar
> >diet aren't, should they not also explain that they don't exercise or
> >have conditions that require them to follow such an austere diet?
> >
> >Kurt
>
> And yet you didn't seem to feel that way in the "Higher carbohydrate
> diet raises BP in type 2 DM", when you wrote:
> >"My doctor tells me I have the blood pressure of an athlete. Sssh,
> >don't tell him I eat carbohydrates."
>
> without mentioning that you are T1, even though the subject header was
> specifically about T2.

Well, I don't consider T1 a condition that affects my diabetes. And it
was a joke to Tom since just about everyone else has publicly declared
that they are ignoring or KF me. But you're right, I should have at
least mentioned I am a T1.

Kurt, T1

"Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161283856.261527.282200@h48g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com...
>
> bittersweet wrote:
>> On 19 Oct 2006 11:06:41 -0700, "Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >W. Baker wrote:
>> >> Kurt <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> : Susan wrote:
>> >> : > x-no-archive: yes
>> >> : >
>> >> : >
>> >> : > Quentin, I'm not sure all T2 DMs have a whole grain budget.
>> >> : > Anecdotally, even a net of 2-4 grams of coarse wheat with fiber
>> >> spikes
>> >> : > me out of all proportion, much higher than 10 grams from leafy
>> >> veggies,
>> >> : > for example.
>> >> : >
>> >> : > The only grain exception in my case is whole kernel, not just
>> >> whole
>> >> : > grain, rye. But even that spikes me, just takes more than 2-4
>> >> grams,
>> >> : > it's more like 10.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> : Here is one of the main problems with this group, not just because
>> >> : Susan wrote it but because it illustrates so concisely what many in
>> >> : here do. "I can't eat this so therefore it is not advisable." A
>> >> : newbie reads this and begins to wonder if they too should cut out
>> >> all
>> >> : kinds of whole grains, or carbs, or meats, or etc. because they have
>> >> : read that others can't.
>> >>
>> >> Kurt,
>> >> You did not read what Susan said and , in fact, probably, you bth
>> >> agree on
>> >> this. Susan did NOT say that NO type 2's have a whole grain budget,
>> >> but
>> >> she said she is "not sure tht ALL type 2's have a whole grain budget."
>> >> In
>> >> plain English, this is saing that SOME type 2's don't have a whole
>> >> grain
>> >> budget so watch and know yourself and your tolerances, which seems to
>> >> be
>> >> much what you were saying with all your talk about individual
>> >> differences.
>> >>
>> >> It is not a good idea to just jump because someone you disagree with
>> >> generlly posts without carefully reading what is actually said. Not
>> >> all
>> >> is not the same as none, it actually means some and in most cases, few
>> >> or
>> >> at least fewer than those tht do have such a budget.
>> >
>> >I read what Susan wrote and stand by my response. Of course "not
>> >everyone can do anyone thing" but it was just another hidden attack at
>> >carbs in general. Funny how you never have the same moral indignation
>> >when others seem to do the same thing you have accused me of.
>> >
>> >You also snipped the main point of my post, not sure why...
>> >
>> >"The X factor here is the individual, in every sense of the word. Many
>> >
>> >here have other medical conditions and lifestyle conditions besides
>> >diabetes. Those conditions should be mentioned in every discussion by
>> >that person when giving anecdotal advice and information. If one has
>> >other medical conditions, or doesn't exercise much, and exclaims how
>> >they can't handle more than say 30 carbs a day, or that certain foods
>> >"spike" them, then they have the obligation to give a bit more insight
>> >as to why that may be the case for them, but not someone else. Truly
>> >it's the responsible thing to do."
>> >
>> >Would like to hear you response to that. Do you feel that someone with
>> >many other medical conditions besides diabetes should declare that
>> >their advice about diabetes is tainted because of those conditions? If
>> >someone says "I only eat 30 carbs a day" with the snooty attitude that
>> >they are doing the responsible thing and others who follow a disimilar
>> >diet aren't, should they not also explain that they don't exercise or
>> >have conditions that require them to follow such an austere diet?
>> >
>> >Kurt
>>
>> And yet you didn't seem to feel that way in the "Higher carbohydrate
>> diet raises BP in type 2 DM", when you wrote:
>> >"My doctor tells me I have the blood pressure of an athlete. Sssh,
>> >don't tell him I eat carbohydrates."
>>
>> without mentioning that you are T1, even though the subject header was
>> specifically about T2.
>
> Well, I don't consider T1 a condition that affects my diabetes. And it
> was a joke to Tom since just about everyone else has publicly declared
> that they are ignoring or KF me. But you're right, I should have at
> least mentioned I am a T1.
>
> Kurt, T1

Then again Kurt its not really a matter of you being a type 1. there are
type ones in here
that speak up on about type 2's diet.
if you agreed with them they would never mention you being a type 1.
they dont even mind the non diabetics that have posted here given advice as
long as they push the low carb agenda.

Tom
this place is one long low carb commercial.

This post not CC'd by email
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:23:05 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"
<wbaker@panix.com> wrote:

>I limit my grain intake greatly, but I do use either the whole rye grain
>Wasa or the Ryevita crackers with some regularity. They are a componenet
>of my egg andsmoked salmon breakfasts and I usse them as snaks when my BG
>numbers allow. In general, I eat an average of 3 a day. They are not
>wildely expensive and are easy to use.
>
>Since I prefer fruit as my carb of dinner choice, I seldon eat brley or
>brown rice except for a little barley in some soups or a lttle brown rice
>on my very ocasional forays to Chinese restaurants.
>
>This works for me and I do stick to the whole grains as aresult of what I
>have learned from you, Quentin, and others on this group.
>
>Wendy

G'day G'day Wendy,

Thank you for discussing your experiences with WHOLE grain: the
ryvita you use with egg and salmon breakfast etc.

I woke this morning happily expecting to be BOMBARDED with examples
of WHOLE grains that would be suitable for T2s.

Perhaps I should have known better. Not one so far. Despite some
vociferous advocacy of WHOLE grains by some here there have been no
new examples forth coming. One could be forgiven for thinking that
WHOLE grains for T2s is a myth. I'm not ready to accept that
hypothesis just yet.

Maybe if I take the dogs for walk, giving us all some exercise people
will notice this thread is not about glycemic index, it is not about
how one could determine one's WHOLE grain budget, it is about finding
examples of WHOLE grain that are T2 friendly.

Best wishes,




--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

"Quentin Grady" <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message

> Maybe if I take the dogs for walk, giving us all some exercise people
> will notice this thread is not about glycemic index, it is not about
> how one could determine one's WHOLE grain budget, it is about finding
> examples of WHOLE grain that are T2 friendly.
>
> Best wishes,

for me its not really about the foods but how much of that food I do eat.
for example - sugar the big no no - i can easily put a teaspon in a cup of
coffee but can not
put a tea spoon of coffee in a cup of sugar.
is white bread type 2 friendly? well its far from the best choice - its just
a matter of how much.
there is no food i can not eat - there are amounts of foods I can not eat.

Tom

Quentin Grady <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> This post not CC'd by email
> On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:23:05 +0000 (UTC), "W. Baker"
> <wbaker@panix.com> wrote:

>>I limit my grain intake greatly, but I do use either the whole rye grain
>>Wasa or the Ryevita crackers with some regularity. They are a componenet
>>of my egg andsmoked salmon breakfasts and I usse them as snaks when my BG
>>numbers allow. In general, I eat an average of 3 a day. They are not
>>wildely expensive and are easy to use.
>>
>>Since I prefer fruit as my carb of dinner choice, I seldon eat brley or
>>brown rice except for a little barley in some soups or a lttle brown rice
>>on my very ocasional forays to Chinese restaurants.
>>
>>This works for me and I do stick to the whole grains as aresult of what I
>>have learned from you, Quentin, and others on this group.
>>
>>Wendy

> G'day G'day Wendy,

> Thank you for discussing your experiences with WHOLE grain: the
> ryvita you use with egg and salmon breakfast etc.

> I woke this morning happily expecting to be BOMBARDED with examples
> of WHOLE grains that would be suitable for T2s.

> Perhaps I should have known better. Not one so far.

> Maybe if I take the dogs for walk, giving us all some exercise people
> will notice this thread is not about glycemic index, it is not about
> how one could determine one's WHOLE grain budget, it is about finding
> examples of WHOLE grain that are T2 friendly.

I'm sorry, perhaps I should have pointed out specifically that dal is
made from whole grain lentils, or do lentils not count as whole
grains?

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

x-no-archive: yes

Quentin Grady wrote:

> Maybe if I take the dogs for walk, giving us all some exercise people
> will notice this thread is not about glycemic index, it is not about
> how one could determine one's WHOLE grain budget, it is about finding
> examples of WHOLE grain that are T2 friendly.
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
>

Exsqueeze, MOI, but I DID mention one; whole kernel rye, if you consider
a spike at 10 grams DM2 friendly.

Susan

x-no-archive: yes

Chris Malcolm wrote:

> I'm sorry, perhaps I should have pointed out specifically that dal is
> made from whole grain lentils, or do lentils not count as whole
> grains?
>

They're legumes, no?

Susan

"Quentin Grady" <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:52jfj2t2le0rvdsandpspp1lomfigi9h0i@4ax.com...
<<snip>>
> I woke this morning happily expecting to be BOMBARDED with examples
> of WHOLE grains that would be suitable for T2s.
>

Well, I just got in from exercise........... so here goes.

I *love* barley. Unfortunately I get a delayed gentle spike about 30 mmol/dl
somewhere around three hours from 1/2c dry. so I now make soups with it to
reduce the portion and make it so I can eat other carbs in the meal.

I also am fond of bulgar wheat. I tried it once soon after dx and it really
spiked me. I now think I may have overdone the portion size and am
considering trying again.

Oats hit me pretty hard and except for haggis, I really don't like them so
haven't gone there.

I am interested in anyone's experience with corn meal. I used to eat a lot
of mush and miss it. I think I'll try making some polenta with some mixture
of veggies in it to experiment....

I've discovered wasabi peas.... is that something you mentioned... or maybe
Alan S?

Peter G.
(bigbird)

"Quentin Grady" <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:52jfj2t2le0rvdsandpspp1lomfigi9h0i@4ax.com...
> I woke this morning happily expecting to be BOMBARDED with examples
> of WHOLE grains that would be suitable for T2s.

Quinoa and amaranth work for me, in moderation, as do Ryvitas. Cracked
wheat, oats, rice of any description do not, in any meaningful amounts.
Buckwheat and spelt are OK - I think the flour I have of them is ground from
whole grain - but they have a strange cumulative effect, so I can't eat them
on consecutive days without a spike.

I think it's very, very YMMV - possibly the most YMMV bit of diet, for T2s.

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/5.5/<6 T2 DX 05/2004
100ug Thyroxine
95/72/72Kg