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  #1  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:06 PM
Kurt
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Default Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

http://diabetes.org/diabetesnewsarti...althewEDIT.xml

or

http://tinyurl.com/yk786m

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  #2  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:06 PM
dumb_fishie99@yahoo.com
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Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women


Kurt wrote:
> http://diabetes.org/diabetesnewsarti...althewEDIT.xml
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yk786m


"Eating more whole grains and low-fat dairy foods also reduced the
likelihood of developing type 2 diabetes, the researchers found."

What researchers? Where is the link to the actual study?

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  #3  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:06 PM
Alan S
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Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

On 16 Oct 2006 15:21:19 -0700, "Kurt"
<kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote:

>http://diabetes.org/diabetesnewsarti...althewEDIT.xml
>
>or
>
>http://tinyurl.com/yk786m


Should be an interesting article for anyone here who is yet
to be diagnosed, is black and is female.

I miss out on all counts.

Incidentally, those who do like wheat-grain foods should
start hoarding. The drought is leading to a massive crop
failure here.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Alhambra
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
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  #4  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:06 PM
GysdeJongh
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Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

"Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1161037278.945544.326670@b28g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> http://diabetes.org/diabetesnewsarti...althewEDIT.xml
>
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yk786m


Hi Kurt,
not by the scientists the ADA sponsor themselves and with the typical
english under-statement they write :

"Despite the impressive features of this landmark study, the findings on
longterm weight change are somewhat underwhelming."

I can't blame them
A weight loss of 0.5 kg in 10 years ......

Most people would not stop laughing

Here is something to read for you :








Nutr Metab (Lond). 2005 Jul 14;2:16.

Comment in:
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2005 Aug 31;2:21.

The case for low carbohydrate diets in diabetes management.

Arora SK, McFarlane SI.

Division of Endocrinology, Diabetes and Hypertension, SUNY Downstate Medical
Center, Kings County Hospital Center, Brooklyn, NY 11203, USA.
surenderkarora@yahoo.com

A low fat, high carbohydrate diet in combination with regular exercise is
the traditional recommendation for treating diabetes. Compliance with these
lifestyle modifications is less than satisfactory, however, and a high
carbohydrate diet raises postprandial plasma glucose and insulin secretion,
thereby increasing risk of CVD, hypertension, dyslipidemia, obesity and
diabetes. Moreover, the current epidemic of diabetes and obesity has been,
over the past three decades, accompanied by a significant decrease in fat
consumption and an increase in carbohydrate consumption. This apparent
failure of the traditional diet, from a public health point of view,
indicates that alternative dietary approaches are needed. Because
carbohydrate is the major secretagogue of insulin, some form of carbohydrate
restriction is a prima facie candidate for dietary control of diabetes.
Evidence from various randomized controlled trials in recent years has
convinced us that such diets are safe and effective, at least in short-term.
These data show low carbohydrate diets to be comparable or better than
traditional low fat high carbohydrate diets for weight reduction,
improvement in the dyslipidemia of diabetes and metabolic syndrome as well
as control of blood pressure, postprandial glycemia and insulin secretion.
Furthermore, the ability of low carbohydrate diets to reduce triglycerides
and to increase HDL is of particular importance. Resistance to such
strategies has been due, in part, to equating it with the popular Atkins
diet. However, there are many variations and room for individual physician
planning. Some form of low carbohydrate diet, in combination with exercise,
is a viable option for patients with diabetes. However, the extreme
reduction of carbohydrate of popular diets (<30 g/day) cannot be recommended
for a diabetic population at this time without further study. On the other
hand, the dire objections continually raised in the literature appear to
have very little scientific basis. Whereas it is traditional to say that
more work needs to be done, the same is true of the assumed standard low fat
diets which have an ambiguous record at best. We see current trends in the
national dietary recommendations as a positive sign and an appropriate move
in the right direction.

PMID: 16018812
















JAMA. 2006 Jan 4;295(1):39-49.

Comment in:
JAMA. 2006 Jan 4;295(1):94-5.
JAMA. 2006 Jul 26;296(4):394; author reply 394-5.

Low-fat dietary pattern and weight change over 7 years: the Women's Health
Initiative Dietary Modification Trial.

Howard BV, Manson JE, Stefanick ML, Beresford SA, Frank G, Jones B,
Rodabough RJ, Snetselaar L, Thomson C, Tinker L, Vitolins M, Prentice R.

MedStar Research Institute, Washington, DC, USA.
Barbara.V.Howard@MedStar.net

CONTEXT: Obesity in the United States has increased dramatically during the
past several decades. There is debate about optimum calorie balance for
prevention of weight gain, and proponents of some low-carbohydrate diet
regimens have suggested that the increasing obesity may be attributed, in
part, to low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets. OBJECTIVES: To report data on
body weight in a long-term, low-fat diet trial for which the primary end
points were breast and colorectal cancer and to examine the relationships
between weight changes and changes in dietary components. DESIGN, SETTING,
AND PARTICIPANTS: Randomized intervention trial of 48,835 postmenopausal
women in the United States who were of diverse backgrounds and ethnicities
and participated in the Women's Health Initiative Dietary Modification
Trial; 40% (19,541) were randomized to the intervention and 60% (29,294) to
a control group. Study enrollment was between 1993 and 1998, and this
analysis includes a mean follow-up of 7.5 years (through August 31, 2004).
INTERVENTIONS: The intervention included group and individual sessions to
promote a decrease in fat intake and increases in vegetable, fruit, and
grain consumption and did not include weight loss or caloric restriction
goals. The control group received diet-related education materials. MAIN
OUTCOME MEASURE: Change in body weight from baseline to follow-up. RESULTS:
Women in the intervention group lost weight in the first year (mean of 2.2
kg, P<.001) and maintained lower weight than control women during an average
7.5 years of follow-up (difference, 1.9 kg, P<.001 at 1 year and 0.4 kg, P =
..01 at 7.5 years). No tendency toward weight gain was observed in
intervention group women overall or when stratified by age, ethnicity, or
body mass index. Weight loss was greatest among women in either group who
decreased their percentage of energy from fat. A similar but lesser trend
was observed with increases in vegetable and fruit servings, and a
nonsignificant trend toward weight loss occurred with increasing intake of
fiber. CONCLUSION: A low-fat eating pattern does not result in weight gain
in postmenopausal women.Clinical Trial Registration ClinicalTrials.gov,
NCT00000611.

Publication Types:
Randomized Controlled Trial

MeSH Terms:
Aged
Anthropometry
Diet Records
Diet, Fat-Restricted*
Female
Follow-Up Studies
Humans
Middle Aged
Postmenopause
Research Support, N.I.H., Extramural
Weight Loss*

Secondary Source ID:
ClinicalTrials.gov/NCT00000611

PMID: 16391215





Oh and don't forget to read the editorial comment in the same issue of
JAMA. 2006 Jan 4;295(1):39-49 :









Low-Fat Diets and Weight Change
Michael L. Dansinger, MD, MS
Ernst J. Schaefer, MD
THE ARTICLE BY HOWARD AND COLLEAGUES1 IN THIS
issue of JAMA, which reports on the largest, most
ambitious randomized dietary intervention trial
conducted to date, has concluded that a low-fat diet
program does not produce weight gain.1 Despite the impressive
features of this landmark study, the findings on longterm
weight change are somewhat underwhelming.
The Women's Health Initiative (WHI),2 of which the Dietary
Modification Trial is one component,3 is one of the
most outstanding achievements in clinical research history.
The National Institutes of Health established the WHI
in 1991 to address the most common causes of death, disability,
and impaired quality of life in postmenopausal
women. This multimillion-dollar, 15-year project, involving
161 808 women aged 50 through 79 years, was designed
to address many of the inequities in women's health
research and provide practical information to women and
their physicians about hormone therapy, calcium/vitamin
Dsupplements, dietary patterns, and prevention of heart disease,
cancer, and osteoporosis.
The Dietary Modification Trial component evaluated the
effect of a low-fat (target 20% fat), high-fruit/vegetable and
grain diet on the prevention of breast and colorectal cancer
and heart disease. Between 1993 and 1998, 48 835 postmenopausal
women with a mean baseline age of 62.3 years, mean
body mass index of 29.1, and a dietary fat intake of at least
32% of total calories (approximately the 50th percentile for
fat intake) were randomly assigned to either the self-selected
dietary control group or the low-fat dietary intervention, which
aimed to change dietary patterns but did not encourage weight
loss or caloric reduction (even though the vast majority of participants
were obese or overweight). The trial did provide a
unique opportunity to examine long-term effects of an ad libitum
low-fat dietary pattern on body weight and the relationships
between weight changes and specific changes in dietary
components. The authors reported a 2.2-kg weight loss in the
intervention group at year 1 (1.9 kg between groups) and a
modest 0.4-kg difference between the groups at the 7.5-year
mark (P=.01). They concluded that a low-fat eating pattern
does not result in weight gain in postmenopausal women.1
The article by Howard et al1 is quick to focus attention on
popular diets such as Atkins,4 the Zone,5 and Sugar Busters!,6
whose authors have blamed the current obesity epidemic in
large part on the low-fat (high-carbohydrate) eating pattern
advocated by most authorities during much of the past quarter
century.7,8 Does the recent study refute allegations that the
low-fat dietary approach caused weight gain on a national scale?
Perhaps it does to some extent. On the other hand, despite
some successes,9-12 overall the low-fat dietary approach has been
a failure with the US public, which is in desperate need of effective
obesity treatment and prevention strategies.
Did the WHI trial designers miss an opportunity to choose
a better dietary intervention? Should they have encouraged
specific caloric reductions in overweight and obese
women? The intervention group reported a significant reduction
in total fat intake of 9 percentage points (38.8% to
29.8% of calories as measured by food frequency questionnaire)
with little or no change in the control group, suggesting
a rather successful dietary intervention (although
not close to the 20% target). But even though the women
who reduced fat intake the most maintained some modest
weight loss, absent an explicitly targeted caloric reduction
this approach apparently had very little effect on mean body
weight long term and presumably little effect on caloric intake.
Given what was known about nutrition at study inception,
the low-fat, high-fruit/vegetable and grain diet seems
to have been a straightforward choice. The same cannot necessarily
be said for the absent caloric restriction advice for
overweight and obese participants. Weight loss was not a
treatment goal, but perhaps it should have been.
Is it time to admit defeat? Is US society doomed to be one
in which few individuals maintain normal body weight and
one third of adults are obese?13 This study by Howard et al1
does little to reassure skeptics, and some see no hope on the
horizon. Many believe humankind does not have the selfcontrol
to counterbalance the forces that create a predictable
wave of obesity in technologically advancing societies.
Some believe national governments will never enact the bold
policy changes that could make a dent in the obesity rates,
such as substantially altering food advertising practices and
creating economic incentives for vigorous adherence to lifestyle
recommendations. Even modest steps such as limiting
advertising of unhealthy food during children's television programming
or placing small taxes on unhealthy foods are met





hth
Gys







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  #5  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:07 PM
Gantlet
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women


"GysdeJongh" <jongh711@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:4534ac48$0$23339$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl ...
> "Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1161037278.945544.326670@b28g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
>> http://diabetes.org/diabetesnewsarti...althewEDIT.xml
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/yk786m

>
> Hi Kurt,
> not by the scientists the ADA sponsor themselves and with the typical
> english under-statement they write :
>
> "Despite the impressive features of this landmark study, the findings on
> longterm weight change are somewhat underwhelming."
>
> I can't blame them
> A weight loss of 0.5 kg in 10 years ......
>
> Most people would not stop laughing



i only wish those that publish low carb studies can be so honest.
most honest studies do include a disclaimer.

that said.
I only wish i could get my weight down to .5 less than it was 10 years ago.
not many people can say as they age they lose weight.
so while this was not a weight loss study it did keep those in it
not at the same weight but .5 lbs less than when they were 10 years younger.


this was a study on black womon.
it was also done on white.
African Americans are more likely to develop type 2 diabetes than whites,
Dr. Rob M. van Dam of the Harvard School of Public Health in Boston and
colleagues note in their report in Diabetes Care. Some studies suggest, they
add, that calcium and magnesium may help lower type 2 diabetes risk, but
this research has been done in predominantly white populations.

High intakes of magnesium and calcium went hand in hand with healthier
habits, such as a more active lifestyle and a lower intake of red meat and
saturated fat, the researchers found.

i wont get into whats below. as far as diet goes we all know it isnt a one
size fits all.

even if that one size if low carb.

and we all know people that lost weight while on low fat.



Tom


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  #6  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:07 PM
Jefferson
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

dumb_fishie99@yahoo.com wrote:
> Kurt wrote:
>
>>http://diabetes.org/diabetesnewsarti...althewEDIT.xml
>>
>>or
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/yk786m

>
>
> "Eating more whole grains and low-fat dairy foods also reduced the
> likelihood of developing type 2 diabetes, the researchers found."
>
> What researchers? Where is the link to the actual study?
>

Keep in mind that this article is discussing risk of becoming type 2 DM,
rather than some diet for persons already T2.

Dietary Calcium and Magnesium, Major Food Sources, and Risk of Type 2
Diabetes in U.S. Black Women -
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi...act/29/10/2238

"RESULTS—The multivariate-adjusted hazard ratio of type 2 diabetes for
the highest compared with the lowest quintile of intake was 0.69 (95% CI
0.59–0.81) for dietary magnesium and 0.86 (0.74–1.00) for dietary
calcium. After mutual adjustment, the association for calcium
disappeared (hazard ratio 1.04), whereas the association for magnesium
remained. Daily consumption of low-fat dairy (0.87) and whole grains
(0.69 [0.60–0.79]) were associated with a lower risk of type 2 diabetes
compared with a consumption less than once a week. After mutual
adjustment, the hazard ratio was 0.81 (0.68–0.97) for magnesium and 0.73
(0.63–0.85) for whole grains.

CONCLUSIONS—These findings indicate that a diet high in magnesium-rich
foods, particularly whole grains, is associated with a substantially
lower risk of type 2 diabetes in U.S. black women."

It may be another 6 months before the full article is available without
subscription. It is an argument for avoiding overly refined foods.

Frank
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  #7  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:08 PM
Quentin Grady
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Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

This post not CC'd by email
On 16 Oct 2006 15:21:19 -0700, "Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>http://diabetes.org/diabetesnewsarti...althewEDIT.xml
>
>or
>
>http://tinyurl.com/yk786m


G'day G'day Kurt et al,

Most readers will recognise that something is beneficial RELATIVE to
some other choice. WHOLE grain is beneficial RELATIVE to processed
grain. It is something to be aware of while accepting the limitation
of the acquired knowledge. The silliest conclusion would be to
reverse what is found in this experiment and many like it and conclude
that processed grain was beneficial. The experiment says nothing about
grain vs other sources of magnesium. Just that processed grain is a
dumb choice compared to WHOLE GRAIN if you wish to avoid T2 diabetes
(and are a black woman, if one must.)

It is fairly common knowledge that many diets in the Western world
where food is highly processed are deficient in magnesium. Vegetables
are an excellent source of magnesium. For T2 diabetics or those who
are at risk of developing T2 diabetes, really upping the vegetable
intake is a winning strategy. In the WHI the participants increased
their vegetable intake by a third (from 3 to 4 serves IIRC) with
absolutely no significant benefit as far as I can see. To me that
underlines the point that one has to increase vegetable intake to the
point where it is known to be successful ie upwards of seven serves
per day. For most people it means simply DOUBLING the vegetable
intake. Does this mean becoming a vegetarian. Heck no. Eat lean
meat. I suggest lean meat as one strategy for avoiding the
predominance of saturated fat found in modern feed lot animals. Fish
if caught in uncontaminated water make an excellent starting point.
They haven't been force fattened and provide some omega-3 fats which
in combination with vegetable omega-3 fats provide benefits.

OK, what about the WHOLE grain?

First one has to recognise what whole grain is. As far as magnesium
intake goes, whole meal would be just as good but it metabolizes
differently in the bowel. WHOLE grain SLOWLY releases butyrates which
signal cancel cells to die. Unfortunately butyrate only lasts about
ten minutes so it is pointless taking it as a supplement. Conversion
from WHOLE grain is the way to go. Whole meal just won't provide the
continuity required throughout the day.

IMHO a staple item for many T2 diabetics could be tabouli. There are
170,000+ reference on the net. Notice that some versions include
WHOLE grain (whacked a bit) and pigment-rich green herbs, olive oil,
sesame with sesamin which lowers blood pressure.

IMHO it is the direction to be heading.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
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  #8  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:08 PM
Alan S
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:39:58 -0400, Jefferson
<xyz@adelphia.netng> wrote:

>dumb_fishie99@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Kurt wrote:
>>
>>>http://diabetes.org/diabetesnewsarti...althewEDIT.xml
>>>
>>>or
>>>
>>>http://tinyurl.com/yk786m

>>
>>
>> "Eating more whole grains and low-fat dairy foods also reduced the
>> likelihood of developing type 2 diabetes, the researchers found."
>>
>> What researchers? Where is the link to the actual study?
>>

>Keep in mind that this article is discussing risk of becoming type 2 DM,
> rather than some diet for persons already T2.
>
>Dietary Calcium and Magnesium, Major Food Sources, and Risk of Type 2
>Diabetes in U.S. Black Women -
>http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi...act/29/10/2238
>
>"RESULTS—The multivariate-adjusted hazard ratio of type 2 diabetes for
>the highest compared with the lowest quintile of intake was 0.69 (95% CI
>0.59–0.81) for dietary magnesium and 0.86 (0.74–1.00) for dietary
>calcium. After mutual adjustment, the association for calcium
>disappeared (hazard ratio 1.04), whereas the association for magnesium
>remained. Daily consumption of low-fat dairy (0.87) and whole grains
>(0.69 [0.60–0.79]) were associated with a lower risk of type 2 diabetes
>compared with a consumption less than once a week. After mutual
>adjustment, the hazard ratio was 0.81 (0.68–0.97) for magnesium and 0.73
>(0.63–0.85) for whole grains.
>
>CONCLUSIONS—These findings indicate that a diet high in magnesium-rich
>foods, particularly whole grains, is associated with a substantially
>lower risk of type 2 diabetes in U.S. black women."
>
>It may be another 6 months before the full article is available without
>subscription. It is an argument for avoiding overly refined foods.
>
>Frank


Hi Frank

"a diet high in magnesium-rich foods"

It could also be an argument for chewing the wheel-rims on
your sports car:-)

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Alhambra
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
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  #9  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:08 PM
Quentin Grady
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

This post not CC'd by email
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:39:58 -0400, Jefferson <xyz@adelphia.netng>
wrote:

>It may be another 6 months before the full article is available without
>subscription. It is an argument for avoiding overly refined foods.
>
>Frank


G'day G'day Frank,

Ain't it just.

We are all a little (or a lot) price and convenience driven in our
food choices. Sadly there is nothing on the labels that gives the
long term cost of foods that have been processed to improve shelf
life.

When someone buys whole grain brown rice they are nutritionally
getting a better deal than someone buying white rice. Yet white rice
keeps better so is more profitable to the supermarket owner. There was
a time when we could get Doongara brown rice. It is a long grain rice
grown in Australia which like the Indian Basmati rice had a lower GI
than the more common short grain rice. Sadly it's turnover was slow
and it went stale on the shelves. The inevitable happened and it was
withdrawn.

For T2s the answer isn't to eat more, to get nutrients. IMHO the
answer is to eat higher quality food getting the nutrients with fewer
associated calories. Oh, and exercise more to burn off calories.

Modern marketing economics don't make buying nutrient rich food easy
but then who said life was meant to be easy. In very general terms
the basic principle is to put quality before quantity. One guide to
quality is that small amounts satisfy. Lower quality often leads to a
desire to eat more as if one intuitively realises something is
missing. Not foolproof by any means. Fools have an ingenuity all of
their own.

IMHO avoid gimmicks that promise all sort of additives. Additives are
a claxon blaring its warning that the food was overly refined in the
first place.

Thanks Frank for mentioning over refining. It is such an important
concept to understand and one you undoubted understand as well if not
better than I do. Still it is one that escapes our attention some
days thanks to the power of advertising that distract us from the
basics and what is of real importance.

Best wishes. Great to find you posting.
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
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  #10  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:08 PM
Quentin Grady
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

This post not CC'd by email
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:26:07 +1000, Alan S
<loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hi Frank
>
>"a diet high in magnesium-rich foods"
>
>It could also be an argument for chewing the wheel-rims on
>your sports car:-)
>
>Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
>d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
>http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
>latest: Alhambra
>--
>Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.


G'day G'day Alan,

I clicked the big W associated with magnesium.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcom...k/wt_rank.html

Tocotrienols, a less common branch of the Vit E family, work better in
conjunction with magnesium. Non-diabetics require calcium and
magnesium in a ratio of about 2:1

SOME diabetics excrete magnesium faster than normal. Don't ask all the
ins and outs of exactly which do and which don't. I don't know. The
upshot of this is that diabetics probably do better with a higher
proportion of magnesium say a 1:1 ratio. Magnesium is widely spread
in nuts, green vegetables and whole grains.

270 mg per day is recommended for women.


Top of the list are
Almonds 1/2 cup 200 mg
Buckwheat 1/2 cup 186 mg
Cashew nuts 1/2 cup 169 mg
Spinach 1 cup(boiled)148 mg
soybean 1 cup 141 mg
Peanuts 1/2 cup 124 mg
Baked beans 1 cup 105 mg

As a basic concept any single item should only provide a proportion of
the recommended daily requirement. If one tries to get it all from one
item one eats too much. Notice the quantities, soybean isn't better
than peanuts if one takes a 1/2 cup of each.

Also, most people who read here are on some medication. This makes
choice tricky. One needs the backup of trained professionals who are
often more alert to interactions between food and drugs. The
grapefruit situation is well known. It isn't the only one.

Sorry no wheel-rims.

So if you have a car that I can only dream of it its wheel rims are
probably safe from marauding wives, girl friends etc looking for a
magnesium boost.

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
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  #11  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:08 PM
Alan S
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:49:06 +1300, Quentin Grady
<quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote:

>This post not CC'd by email
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:26:07 +1000, Alan S
><loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi Frank
>>
>>"a diet high in magnesium-rich foods"
>>
>>It could also be an argument for chewing the wheel-rims on
>>your sports car:-)
>>
>>Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
>>d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
>>http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
>>latest: Alhambra
>>--
>>Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

>
>G'day G'day Alan,
>
>
>http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcom...k/wt_rank.html
>
>Tocotrienols, a less common branch of the Vit E family, work better in
>conjunction with magnesium. Non-diabetics require calcium and
>magnesium in a ratio of about 2:1
>
>SOME diabetics excrete magnesium faster than normal. Don't ask all the
>ins and outs of exactly which do and which don't. I don't know. The
>upshot of this is that diabetics probably do better with a higher
>proportion of magnesium say a 1:1 ratio. Magnesium is widely spread
>in nuts, green vegetables and whole grains.
>
>270 mg per day is recommended for women.
>
>
>Top of the list are
>Almonds 1/2 cup 200 mg
>Buckwheat 1/2 cup 186 mg
>Cashew nuts 1/2 cup 169 mg
>Spinach 1 cup(boiled)148 mg
>soybean 1 cup 141 mg
>Peanuts 1/2 cup 124 mg
>Baked beans 1 cup 105 mg
>
>As a basic concept any single item should only provide a proportion of
>the recommended daily requirement. If one tries to get it all from one
>item one eats too much. Notice the quantities, soybean isn't better
>than peanuts if one takes a 1/2 cup of each.
>
>Also, most people who read here are on some medication. This makes
>choice tricky. One needs the backup of trained professionals who are
>often more alert to interactions between food and drugs. The
>grapefruit situation is well known. It isn't the only one.
>
>Sorry no wheel-rims.
>
>So if you have a car that I can only dream of it its wheel rims are
>probably safe from marauding wives, girl friends etc looking for a
>magnesium boost.
>
>Best wishes,


Thanks Quentin

As you know I read every word of your advice and take it
very seriously - as you would notice if you ever get the
chance to look in my fridge as I was privileged to look in
yours.

However, I do have one of those frivolous quirky minds which
got me into a lot of trouble in School.

Putting together the combination of the addition of lots of
extra veges to my diet since diagnosis and their
gas-producing passage through my GI tract, the known side
effects from Metformin, and your comment that "SOME
diabetics excrete magnesium faster than normal" it gives a
whole new sense of caution to the old advice to never play
with matches.

Especially after a meal.

Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
d&e, metformin 1000mg, ezetrol 10mg
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/
latest: Alhambra
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

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  #12  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:08 PM
Trinkwasser
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:11:34 +0200, "GysdeJongh" <jongh711@planet.nl>
wrote:

> Moreover, the current epidemic of diabetes and obesity has been,
>over the past three decades, accompanied by a significant decrease in fat
>consumption and an increase in carbohydrate consumption.


They noticed!!!!!
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  #13  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:08 PM
GysdeJongh
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

"Quentin Grady" <quentin@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:m4hbj2h33djlir3slugo4132pstu1hvhfi@4ax.com...
> This post not CC'd by email
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:39:58 -0400, Jefferson <xyz@adelphia.netng>
> wrote:
>
>>It may be another 6 months before the full article is available without
>>subscription. It is an argument for avoiding overly refined foods.
>>
>>Frank

>
> G'day G'day Frank,
>
> Ain't it just.
>
> We are all a little (or a lot) price and convenience driven in our
> food choices. Sadly there is nothing on the labels that gives the
> long term cost of foods that have been processed to improve shelf
> life.
>
> When someone buys whole grain brown rice they are nutritionally
> getting a better deal than someone buying white rice. Yet white rice
> keeps better so is more profitable to the supermarket owner. There was
> a time when we could get Doongara brown rice. It is a long grain rice
> grown in Australia which like the Indian Basmati rice had a lower GI
> than the more common short grain rice. Sadly it's turnover was slow
> and it went stale on the shelves. The inevitable happened and it was
> withdrawn.
>
> For T2s the answer isn't to eat more, to get nutrients. IMHO the
> answer is to eat higher quality food getting the nutrients with fewer
> associated calories. Oh, and exercise more to burn off calories.
>
> Modern marketing economics don't make buying nutrient rich food easy
> but then who said life was meant to be easy. In very general terms
> the basic principle is to put quality before quantity. One guide to
> quality is that small amounts satisfy. Lower quality often leads to a
> desire to eat more as if one intuitively realises something is
> missing. Not foolproof by any means. Fools have an ingenuity all of
> their own.
>
> IMHO avoid gimmicks that promise all sort of additives. Additives are
> a claxon blaring its warning that the food was overly refined in the
> first place.
>
> Thanks Frank for mentioning over refining. It is such an important
> concept to understand and one you undoubted understand as well if not
> better than I do. Still it is one that escapes our attention some
> days thanks to the power of advertising that distract us from the
> basics and what is of real importance.


Hi Quentin ,
and additives focus on one component at a time
Which can be wrong

Except for favourable fatty acids there are also Phytosterols and fiber in
nuts and whole grain
Both good for glycemic control

Here is also a table both with kcal , MUFA , PUFA and Phytosterols for nuts
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/foods/nuts/

Here is a review :
Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Sep;78(3 Suppl):610S-616S.

Type 2 diabetes and the vegetarian diet.

Jenkins DJ, Kendall CW, Marchie A, Jenkins AL, Augustin LS, Ludwig DS,
Barnard ND, Anderson JW.

Clinical Nutrition & Risk Factor Modification Center, St Michael's Hospital,
Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Based on what is known of the components of plant-based diets and their
effects from cohort studies, there is reason to believe that vegetarian
diets would have advantages in the treatment of type 2 diabetes. At present
there are few data on vegetarian diets in diabetes that do not in addition
have weight loss or exercise components. Nevertheless, the use of
whole-grain or traditionally processed cereals and legumes has been
associated with improved glycemic control in both diabetic and
insulin-resistant individuals. Long-term cohort studies have indicated that
whole-grain consumption reduces the risk of both type 2 diabetes and
cardiovascular disease. In addition, nuts (eg, almonds), viscous fibers (eg,
fibers from oats and barley), soy proteins, and plant sterols, which may be
part of the vegetarian diet, reduce serum lipids. In combination, these
plant food components may have a very significant impact on cardiovascular
disease, one of the major complications of diabetes. Furthermore,
substituting soy or other vegetable proteins for animal protein may also
decrease renal hyperfiltration, proteinuria, and renal acid load and in the
long term reduce the risk of developing renal disease in type 2 diabetes.
The vegetarian diet, therefore, contains a portfolio of natural products and
food forms of benefit for both the carbohydrate and lipid abnormalities in
diabetes. It is anticipated that their combined use in vegetarian diets will
produce very significant metabolic advantages for the prevention and
treatment of diabetes and its complications.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 12936955

hth
Gys


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  #14  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:08 PM
Kurt
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women


GysdeJongh wrote:
> Type 2 diabetes and the vegetarian diet.
>
> Jenkins DJ, Kendall CW, Marchie A, Jenkins AL, Augustin LS, Ludwig DS,
> Barnard ND, Anderson JW.
>
> Clinical Nutrition & Risk Factor Modification Center, St Michael's Hospital,
> Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
>
> Based on what is known of the components of plant-based diets and their
> effects from cohort studies, there is reason to believe that vegetarian
> diets would have advantages in the treatment of type 2 diabetes. At present
> there are few data on vegetarian diets in diabetes that do not in addition
> have weight loss or exercise components. Nevertheless, the use of
> whole-grain or traditionally processed cereals and legumes has been
> associated with improved glycemic control in both diabetic and
> insulin-resistant individuals. Long-term cohort studies have indicated that
> whole-grain consumption reduces the risk of both type 2 diabetes and
> cardiovascular disease. In addition, nuts (eg, almonds), viscous fibers (eg,
> fibers from oats and barley), soy proteins, and plant sterols, which may be
> part of the vegetarian diet, reduce serum lipids. In combination, these
> plant food components may have a very significant impact on cardiovascular
> disease, one of the major complications of diabetes. Furthermore,
> substituting soy or other vegetable proteins for animal protein may also
> decrease renal hyperfiltration, proteinuria, and renal acid load and in the
> long term reduce the risk of developing renal disease in type 2 diabetes.
> The vegetarian diet, therefore, contains a portfolio of natural products and
> food forms of benefit for both the carbohydrate and lipid abnormalities in
> diabetes. It is anticipated that their combined use in vegetarian diets will
> produce very significant metabolic advantages for the prevention and
> treatment of diabetes and its complications.
>
> Publication Types:
> Review
>
> PMID: 12936955


Interesting article. Thanks for posting it, Gys. I'd have to say it
is pretty much in keeping with what I have found to be true of people
who eschew a fatty diet of red meats and replace them with whole
grains. Many years ago I lost a good deal of weight by eliminating
processed foods and adopting a vegetarian lifestyle. That, combined
with a newfound daily exercise program, paid big dividends to my total
health. I have long since added fish and some dairy products into the
mix.

Before the diabetic sneetches in here jump in with their star-bellied
indignation that I am commenting on the sacred Type 2 discussion, I
should add that several people who I know that are Type 2 also reaped
major benefits by eliminating fatty red meat products from their diet.
Not to say someone who isn't a vegetarian is going to hell in a
handbasket with their diabetes, just that adding "some" whole grains to
one's diet is not as bad as some in here make it out to be.

Studies always have flaws, not the least of which is the amateur
conclusions we draw from them. But suffice to say, anytime someone
with diabetes makes healthy changes to their diet and incorporates
serious exercise into their lifestyle, they will see a marked
improvement in their overall health. The problem is the masses who
lack the discipline and motivation to do that. They are the ones who
are at the most risk and all of the information out there about the
need to eat healthy and exercise is either being lost or ignored on
them.

Best,
Kurt

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  #15  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:09 PM
Quentin Grady
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

This post not CC'd by email
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:27:20 +1000, Alan S
<loralgtweightandcarbs@gmail.com> wrote:

>Thanks Quentin
>
>As you know I read every word of your advice and take it
>very seriously - as you would notice if you ever get the
>chance to look in my fridge as I was privileged to look in
>yours.


G'day G'day Alan,

There is truth in refrigerators.

>However, I do have one of those frivolous quirky minds which
>got me into a lot of trouble in School.
>
>Putting together the combination of the addition of lots of
>extra veges to my diet since diagnosis and their
>gas-producing passage through my GI tract, the known side
>effects from Metformin, and your comment that "SOME
>diabetics excrete magnesium faster than normal" it gives a
>whole new sense of caution to the old advice to never play
>with matches.


ROTFL. It is so good to have the company of such wit.


FWIW, we all need to make changes in fibre intake judiciously not
attempting to do it faster than anyone else. As it happens my GP put
me on Diamicron not Metformin so I was spared that embarrassment until
being put on thalidomide. Now I'm learning experientially.


>Especially after a meal.


ROTFLA.

>Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.


Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
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  #16  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:09 PM
Quentin Grady
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

This post not CC'd by email
On 18 Oct 2006 14:55:45 -0700, "Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Interesting article. Thanks for posting it, Gys. I'd have to say it
>is pretty much in keeping with what I have found to be true of people
>who eschew a fatty diet of red meats and replace them with whole
>grains. Many years ago I lost a good deal of weight by eliminating
>processed foods and adopting a vegetarian lifestyle. That, combined
>with a newfound daily exercise program, paid big dividends to my total
>health. I have long since added fish and some dairy products into the
>mix.


G'day G'day Kurt,

One of basic strategies is to listen to people who are successful
even to the point of modeling their success. That doesn't mean I
necessarily take at face value their description of what they do or
for that matter doubt their description. It is simply often
incomplete.

Let's look for moment at the essentials.

1. You adopted an exercise program. Anyone who goes for a grain
based largely vegetarian diet has to combine it with exercise.

2. You eliminated processed foods. I have been impressed on other
occasions with the attention you gave to using organic brown rice.

3. I much admire what I call PAL-vegetarians though I am not one
myself. That is pesco-avo-lacto vegetarians. If it is not being
intrusive into a matter you may wish to consider private, do you
include eggs and dairy products in your diet?

4. You haven't mentioned vegetables.
How do they figure in your diet?

Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:09 PM
Quentin Grady
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

G'day G'day Gys,

Thanks once again. It is a long weekend here with public holidays and
you are helping make it most enjoyable for me.

The research refers to what is commonly known as the Portfolio diet.
It got the name because it threw together a collection of non-animal
products that were individually known to reduce cholesterol. Somewhat
to the apparent surprise of the researchers it performed as well as
first generation statin. Of course the sponsors didn't compare it
against the same diet with some animal products to provide Vit B12 and
make the diet sustainable over long periods. From the point of view
of T2s that is rather sad. There is MUCH to be learnt from the
Portfolio diet that is relevant to T2s and most anyone else for that
matter but unfortunately there is no sponsor who will push the
boundaries and test what is learnt in a short trial to a long term
study. The Portfolio diet is the sort of thing everyone myself
included needs to Google every once in a while simply to notice what
factors one might be neglecting. Naturally enough ignore the vested
commercial interests that sort of hint "their product did it" As so
often was the case, it was the combo that worked effectively.

Best wishes,
Quentin.

This post not CC'd by email
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:25:06 +0200, "GysdeJongh" <jongh711@planet.nl>
wrote:

>Here is a review :
>Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Sep;78(3 Suppl):610S-616S.
>
>Type 2 diabetes and the vegetarian diet.
>
>Jenkins DJ, Kendall CW, Marchie A, Jenkins AL, Augustin LS, Ludwig DS,
>Barnard ND, Anderson JW.
>
>Clinical Nutrition & Risk Factor Modification Center, St Michael's Hospital,
>Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
>
>Based on what is known of the components of plant-based diets and their
>effects from cohort studies, there is reason to believe that vegetarian
>diets would have advantages in the treatment of type 2 diabetes. At present
>there are few data on vegetarian diets in diabetes that do not in addition
>have weight loss or exercise components. Nevertheless, the use of
>whole-grain or traditionally processed cereals and legumes has been
>associated with improved glycemic control in both diabetic and
>insulin-resistant individuals. Long-term cohort studies have indicated that
>whole-grain consumption reduces the risk of both type 2 diabetes and
>cardiovascular disease. In addition, nuts (eg, almonds), viscous fibers (eg,
>fibers from oats and barley), soy proteins, and plant sterols, which may be
>part of the vegetarian diet, reduce serum lipids. In combination, these
>plant food components may have a very significant impact on cardiovascular
>disease, one of the major complications of diabetes. Furthermore,
>substituting soy or other vegetable proteins for animal protein may also
>decrease renal hyperfiltration, proteinuria, and renal acid load and in the
>long term reduce the risk of developing renal disease in type 2 diabetes.
>The vegetarian diet, therefore, contains a portfolio of natural products and
>food forms of benefit for both the carbohydrate and lipid abnormalities in
>diabetes. It is anticipated that their combined use in vegetarian diets will
>produce very significant metabolic advantages for the prevention and
>treatment of diabetes and its complications.
>
>Publication Types:
>Review
>
>PMID: 12936955
>
>hth
>Gys
>


--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
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  #18  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:09 PM
Kurt
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women


Quentin Grady wrote:
> This post not CC'd by email
> On 18 Oct 2006 14:55:45 -0700, "Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Interesting article. Thanks for posting it, Gys. I'd have to say it
> >is pretty much in keeping with what I have found to be true of people
> >who eschew a fatty diet of red meats and replace them with whole
> >grains. Many years ago I lost a good deal of weight by eliminating
> >processed foods and adopting a vegetarian lifestyle. That, combined
> >with a newfound daily exercise program, paid big dividends to my total
> >health. I have long since added fish and some dairy products into the
> >mix.

>
> G'day G'day Kurt,
>
> One of basic strategies is to listen to people who are successful
> even to the point of modeling their success. That doesn't mean I
> necessarily take at face value their description of what they do or
> for that matter doubt their description. It is simply often
> incomplete.
>
> Let's look for moment at the essentials.
>
> 1. You adopted an exercise program. Anyone who goes for a grain
> based largely vegetarian diet has to combine it with exercise.


Everyone should combine whatever diet they follow with exercise.

> 2. You eliminated processed foods. I have been impressed on other
> occasions with the attention you gave to using organic brown rice.


I'm a bit of a brown rice snob. When someone tells me they had brown
rice with their dinner I always query as to if it is organic whole
grain brown rice (short grain or long grain) or is it the instant kind.
My personal choice is the long grain in the warmer months and short
grain in the colder months, although living in Southern California it's
mostly going to be long grain for me. I also eat my brown rice usually
with adzuki beans and seaweed. Takes about an hour to 90 minutes to
cook (if the beans have soaked for awhile first)

> 3. I much admire what I call PAL-vegetarians though I am not one
> myself. That is pesco-avo-lacto vegetarians. If it is not being
> intrusive into a matter you may wish to consider private, do you
> include eggs and dairy products in your diet?


Privacy is my sex life. But when it comes to diet I gladly talk
about it. I do include both eggs and dairy into my diet. About four
eggs a week and some lower fat cheese products (mozarella, Jarlsberg),
real yogurt (with natural fruit), cottage cheese, and a few other dairy
products.

> 4. You haven't mentioned vegetables.
> How do they figure in your diet?


Probably 30% or more of each meal other than breakfast. All kinds of
vegetables. Fresh, not frozen or canned. Living in SoCal it is easy
to get lots of fresh veggies and a good assortment.

In addition, fresh fruit makes up another important part of my diet.

> Best wishes,


And to you.

Kurt

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  #19  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:09 PM
Gantlet
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women


"Trinkwasser" <spam@devnull.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:g05dj29ea3cgubemjucn58io8dd3iv08n8@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:11:34 +0200, "GysdeJongh" <jongh711@planet.nl>
> wrote:
>
>> Moreover, the current epidemic of diabetes and obesity has been,
>>over the past three decades, accompanied by a significant decrease in fat
>>consumption and an increase in carbohydrate consumption.

>
> They noticed!!!!!



ide like any newbie reading this to think how they were eating for the past
30 years.
where you on a low fat diet? in shape? exercise?
do they still sound like they know more than your Dr.?

for myself if i was like them i could easily blame it on fat. however i am
not like them
and more into the truth about what happen. even tho i recieved a 100% on
the firemens physical at age 29 for me it was a matter of becoming less
active eating way to much fat, carbs and protien.

let a sales person talk long enougn about a subject you know and sooner or
later you will
see it is not your best interest they are concerned with.

Tom


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  #20  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:09 PM
Quentin Grady
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

This post not CC'd by email
On 19 Oct 2006 00:38:22 -0700, "Kurt" <kurtwheeling1965@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> G'day G'day Kurt,
>>
>> One of basic strategies is to listen to people who are successful
>> even to the point of modeling their success. That doesn't mean I
>> necessarily take at face value their description of what they do or
>> for that matter doubt their description. It is simply often
>> incomplete.
>>
>> Let's look for moment at the essentials.
>>
>> 1. You adopted an exercise program. Anyone who goes for a grain
>> based largely vegetarian diet has to combine it with exercise.

>
>Everyone should combine whatever diet they follow with exercise.
>
>> 2. You eliminated processed foods. I have been impressed on other
>> occasions with the attention you gave to using organic brown rice.

>
>I'm a bit of a brown rice snob. When someone tells me they had brown
>rice with their dinner I always query as to if it is organic whole
>grain brown rice (short grain or long grain) or is it the instant kind.
> My personal choice is the long grain in the warmer months and short
>grain in the colder months, although living in Southern California it's
>mostly going to be long grain for me. I also eat my brown rice usually
>with adzuki beans and seaweed. Takes about an hour to 90 minutes to
>cook (if the beans have soaked for awhile first)


G'day G'day Kurt,

The combination with adzuki beans and seaweed sounds good. The
biggest mistake many make is groined for instant rice and wondering
where the minerals and vitamins went.

I was surprised to find out just how good the flavour is of the
locally available seaweed, karengo, in seafood foods. My choice has
been red rice. It is a matter of anthocyanins. Black rice is also
available here but more expensive. The red rice appears to be low GI.

>> 3. I much admire what I call PAL-vegetarians though I am not one
>> myself. That is pesco-avo-lacto vegetarians. If it is not being
>> intrusive into a matter you may wish to consider private, do you
>> include eggs and dairy products in your diet?

>
>Privacy is my sex life. But when it comes to diet I gladly talk
>about it. I do include both eggs and dairy into my diet. About four
>eggs a week and some lower fat cheese products (mozarella, Jarlsberg),
>real yogurt (with natural fruit), cottage cheese, and a few other dairy
>products.


OK, so by some standards eg the Japanese, your egg consumption is
quite low. Lower fat is a relative term where cheese is concerned.

>> 4. You haven't mentioned vegetables.
>> How do they figure in your diet?

>
>Probably 30% or more of each meal other than breakfast. All kinds of
>vegetables. Fresh, not frozen or canned. Living in SoCal it is easy
>to get lots of fresh veggies and a good assortment.


This is the factor I mentioned about people omitting important parts
of the description of what they do. 30% of each meal is considerable
but was overlooked in the initial description.

>In addition, fresh fruit makes up another important part of my diet.
>
>> Best wishes,

>
>And to you.
>
>Kurt


Best wishes,

--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin
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  #21  
Old 11-08-2006, 09:09 PM
Jefferson
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Whole Grains Cut Diabetes Risk For Black Women

Hi Quentin and others:

> Tocotrienols, a less common branch of the Vit E family, work better in
> conjunction with magnesium. Non-diabetics require calcium and
> magnesium in a ratio of about 2:1
>

I don't have the information handy, but there has been at least one
trial that compared two statins and their effects on tocotrienols. It
turns out that the results were significantly different. When I find
the link I will post it since statins are widely prescribed to T2s.

Frank
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