Two Week Induction Results

End result: 253 down to 245 -- 8 pounds in two weeks. Considering this was a
switch from low-cal to low-carb, I think that's pretty damn good, as I
didn't have bags of water to drop. Overall, I am now down more then fifty
pounds from my original 298, and I'm really happy about that.

I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting out. In
addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common sense.

For example, a 1/2 cup of blue cheese dressing is very low in carbs, but
that's like 600 calories. A half-cup of that stuff, per day, split between
two or three green salads does not work for me.

Another example: I have to learn to be satisfied with eating two eggs and
two strips of bacon vs. four eggs and six strips of bacon. The carb counts
are almost identical. The stupidity factor of the double+ portion is pretty
high.

My plan for the next two weeks is this:

1) To stay slightly below induction levels of carbs, because I think I have
a low carb tolerance. I'm thinking 12-15 carbs is a good target -- that
allows for copious amounts of greenery, two or three eggs and a little
cheese.

2) To cut the crap attitude that only carbs count and that I can eat
anything so long as I don't go over the carb count.

3) Allow myself one or possibly two treats a week of something that I've
really been missing. A few oz. of almonds or 1/2 a cup of cottage cheese,
something like that. Most people can tolerate these things, on low-carb, on
a daily bases. NOT ME.

And... that's about it!

As time moves on, every two weeks, I'm going to add three to five carbs to
my daily diet, and experiment with different foods, until I figure out what
works for me.

Thanks for all your support!

"em" <i@dun.no> wrote in message news:vw5ri.1687$Vk6.1209@newsfe07.phx...
>
> End result: 253 down to 245 -- 8 pounds in two weeks. Considering this was
> a switch from low-cal to low-carb, I think that's pretty damn good, as I
> didn't have bags of water to drop. Overall, I am now down more then fifty
> pounds from my original 298, and I'm really happy about that.
>
> I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting out. In
> addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common sense.
>
> For example, a 1/2 cup of blue cheese dressing is very low in carbs, but
> that's like 600 calories. A half-cup of that stuff, per day, split between
> two or three green salads does not work for me.
>
> Another example: I have to learn to be satisfied with eating two eggs and
> two strips of bacon vs. four eggs and six strips of bacon. The carb counts
> are almost identical. The stupidity factor of the double+ portion is
> pretty high.
>
> My plan for the next two weeks is this:
>
> 1) To stay slightly below induction levels of carbs, because I think I
> have a low carb tolerance. I'm thinking 12-15 carbs is a good target --
> that allows for copious amounts of greenery, two or three eggs and a
> little cheese.
>
> 2) To cut the crap attitude that only carbs count and that I can eat
> anything so long as I don't go over the carb count.
>
> 3) Allow myself one or possibly two treats a week of something that I've
> really been missing. A few oz. of almonds or 1/2 a cup of cottage cheese,
> something like that. Most people can tolerate these things, on low-carb,
> on a daily bases. NOT ME.
>
> And... that's about it!
>
> As time moves on, every two weeks, I'm going to add three to five carbs to
> my daily diet, and experiment with different foods, until I figure out
> what works for me.
>
> Thanks for all your support!
>

My diet goals consist of :

one to two grams of protein per 3 pounds of my goal body weight.
no more than fifty percent of total calorie intake from carbs.
no more than 25 percent of calories from fat.
I avoid refined carbs and saturated fats.

for breakfast
one serving of low fat milk
two servings of whole wheat toast
two servings of high unsaturated fat content margarine.
one serving of fruit.

for the rest of the day

one to two servings of meat, fish or chicken.
one serving of dairy
one oz cheese, one glass low fat milk, or other dairy product
two servings of green leafy vegetable
one serving of beans, peas or other legume
two servings of other vegetables
two serving of fruit
If I eat salad I use olive oil and vinegar with a little garlic.

on Sunday I eat whatever I please.

I walk for fortyfive minutes three times a week at fifty percent or more of
my maximum heart rate.

Bob

"sycochkn" <sycochkn@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:L_5ri.12147$tj6.6377@newsread4.news.pas.earth link.net...
>
> "em" <i@dun.no> wrote in message news:vw5ri.1687$Vk6.1209@newsfe07.phx...

> My diet goals consist of :
>

Thank you for sharing that!

> I walk for fortyfive minutes three times a week at fifty percent or more
of
> my maximum heart rate.
>

I'm wondering how you picked 50%. That seems a little low to me.

Then again, I haven't been exercising lately. I would be better off doing
what you're doing as opposed to sitting here posting on Usenet ;-)

"em" <i@dun.no> wrote in message news:1B6ri.42228$6K3.2064@newsfe10.phx...
>
> "sycochkn" <sycochkn@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:L_5ri.12147$tj6.6377@newsread4.news.pas.earth link.net...
>>
>> "em" <i@dun.no> wrote in message news:vw5ri.1687$Vk6.1209@newsfe07.phx...
>
>> My diet goals consist of :
>>
>
> Thank you for sharing that!
>
> > I walk for fortyfive minutes three times a week at fifty percent or more
> of
>> my maximum heart rate.
>>
>
> I'm wondering how you picked 50%. That seems a little low to me.
>
> Then again, I haven't been exercising lately. I would be better off doing
> what you're doing as opposed to sitting here posting on Usenet ;-)
>
>
>
fifty percent is maximum fat loss vs muscle loss. As you increase the
intensity you use more muscle tissue vs fat for energy. But you also gain
more muscle. If your goal is cardio you do three times a week minimum. If
your goal is weight loss five times a week with rest for two. 50 percent is
the minimum 85 the maximum. My major block to increasing exercise is muscle
pain, which gradually goes away. The recommended way to start the walking is
to do 10 minutes a day to start and add 2 minutes per week. 30 minutes three
times a week is the recommended minimum 60 minutes 5 times a week the max
for mere mortals.

Bob

On Jul 29, 3:03 pm, "em" <i...@dun.no> wrote:
> End result: 253 down to 245 -- 8 pounds in two weeks. Considering this was a
> switch from low-cal to low-carb, I think that's pretty damn good, as I
> didn't have bags of water to drop. Overall, I am now down more then fifty
> pounds from my original 298, and I'm really happy about that.
>
> I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting out. In
> addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common sense.
>
> For example, a 1/2 cup of blue cheese dressing is very low in carbs, but
> that's like 600 calories. A half-cup of that stuff, per day, split between
> two or three green salads does not work for me.
>
> Another example: I have to learn to be satisfied with eating two eggs and
> two strips of bacon vs. four eggs and six strips of bacon. The carb counts
> are almost identical. The stupidity factor of the double+ portion is pretty
> high.
>
> My plan for the next two weeks is this:
>
> 1) To stay slightly below induction levels of carbs, because I think I have
> a low carb tolerance. I'm thinking 12-15 carbs is a good target -- that
> allows for copious amounts of greenery, two or three eggs and a little
> cheese.
>
> 2) To cut the crap attitude that only carbs count and that I can eat
> anything so long as I don't go over the carb count.
>
> 3) Allow myself one or possibly two treats a week of something that I've
> really been missing. A few oz. of almonds or 1/2 a cup of cottage cheese,
> something like that. Most people can tolerate these things, on low-carb, on
> a daily bases. NOT ME.
>
> And... that's about it!
>
> As time moves on, every two weeks, I'm going to add three to five carbs to
> my daily diet, and experiment with different foods, until I figure out what
> works for me.
>
> Thanks for all your support!

Interesting -- sounds like you've done really well with this new
plan. I'm not clear on why you decided that you need to keep carbs
even lower than the plan recommends. I didn't think you'd have had
enough data with a low-carb approach to reach that conclusion. But
maybe I missed something.

For the record: everyone I know who has had long-term success with a
low-carb approach has paid attention to calories consumed as well as
just carbs, as you are doing.

Chris
262/130s/130s

sycochkn wrote:

> fifty percent is maximum fat loss vs muscle loss. As you increase the
> intensity you use more muscle tissue vs fat for energy. But you also gain
> more muscle. If your goal is cardio you do three times a week minimum. If
> your goal is weight loss five times a week with rest for two. 50 percent is
> the minimum 85 the maximum. My major block to increasing exercise is muscle
> pain, which gradually goes away. The recommended way to start the walking is
> to do 10 minutes a day to start and add 2 minutes per week. 30 minutes three
> times a week is the recommended minimum 60 minutes 5 times a week the max
> for mere mortals.
>
> Bob
>
>
Thanks! great advice

On Jul 29, 4:10 pm, "em" <i...@dun.no> wrote:
> "sycochkn" <sycoc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:L_5ri.12147$tj6.6377@newsread4.news.pas.earth link.net...
>
>
>
> > "em" <i...@dun.no> wrote in messagenews:vw5ri.1687$Vk6.1209@newsfe07.phx...
> > My diet goals consist of :
>
> Thank you for sharing that!
>
> > I walk for fortyfive minutes three times a week at fifty percent or more
> of
>
> > my maximum heart rate.
>
> I'm wondering how you picked 50%. That seems a little low to me.
>
> Then again, I haven't been exercising lately. I would be better off doing
> what you're doing as opposed to sitting here posting on Usenet ;-)

Um, yeah -- you really should exercise :-). Exercise is good for you
for so many reasons that have nothing to do with weight loss, so even
if you are losing without it you still should really work on
developing the habit.

Re sycochkn's note about maximum fat loss: The "fat-burning zone"
concept is valid, but all calorie-burning exercise is good, as you
will burn fat after the exercise as well as during. And higher-
intensity exercise has an important role in developing cardiac fitness
-- something that's certainly a worthwhile goal in addition to fat
loss. (Personally, I've never worried over much about fat burning
zones and such. I've tried to do a wide range of exercise intensities
and types to gain the most overall benefit. Seems to have worked and
to continue to work, overall ;-).)

Chris
262/130s/130s

"Chris" <braun_chris@mindspring.com> wrote

>
> Interesting -- sounds like you've done really well with this new
> plan. I'm not clear on why you decided that you need to keep carbs
> even lower than the plan recommends. I didn't think you'd have had
> enough data with a low-carb approach to reach that conclusion. But
> maybe I missed something.

Hi Chris,

I've been on low-carb and low-cal diets in the past a couple times and
failed at it. I've learned a few hard lessons about me as a person and my
ability to succed, and I also have a few theories about the diet itself and
how it might work best for me. One of my theories is that I have to really
keep the carbs down low, and I'm doing an experiment to see if that's true
or not.

> For the record: everyone I know who has had long-term success with a
> low-carb approach has paid attention to calories consumed as well as
> just carbs, as you are doing.

Thanks for the encouragement! I am not counting calories, per se, but I am
counting carbs quite religously and trying to make good decisions about the
types of food that I eat. That might not be enough, and I may have to go
back to counting calories. I hope not, though, I really dislike having to
write down every piece of food that I eat. Now, I just have a little carb
counter that I carry on my keychain. Its really easy to use.

On Jul 29, 8:36 pm, "em" <i...@dun.no> wrote:
> "Chris" <braun_ch...@mindspring.com> wrote
>
>
>
> > Interesting -- sounds like you've done really well with this new
> > plan. I'm not clear on why you decided that you need to keep carbs
> > even lower than the plan recommends. I didn't think you'd have had
> > enough data with a low-carb approach to reach that conclusion. But
> > maybe I missed something.
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> I've been on low-carb and low-cal diets in the past a couple times and
> failed at it. I've learned a few hard lessons about me as a person and my
> ability to succed, and I also have a few theories about the diet itself and
> how it might work best for me. One of my theories is that I have to really
> keep the carbs down low, and I'm doing an experiment to see if that's true
> or not.
>
> > For the record: everyone I know who has had long-term success with a
> > low-carb approach has paid attention to calories consumed as well as
> > just carbs, as you are doing.
>
> Thanks for the encouragement! I am not counting calories, per se, but I am
> counting carbs quite religously and trying to make good decisions about the
> types of food that I eat. That might not be enough, and I may have to go
> back to counting calories. I hope not, though, I really dislike having to
> write down every piece of food that I eat. Now, I just have a little carb
> counter that I carry on my keychain. Its really easy to use.

Just to clarify -- the folks I know who've been successful haven't
necessarily counted calories. They've just had the sense to realize
that they can't eat unlimited calories just because their carbs are
low -- no eating a can of nuts for an afternoon snack, or 6 eggs and a
half pound of bacon for breakfast, or whatever. You seem to show the
same good sense :-).

Chris
262/130s/130s

On Jul 29, 6:54 pm, Chris <braun_ch...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> For the record: everyone I know who has had long-term success with a
> low-carb approach has paid attention to calories consumed as well as
> just carbs, as you are doing.

I agree, but... usually people don't need to get into calorie-counting
until close to goal.

Em has just started and has lost 8 lbs in 2 weeks. This is not only
not a stall, but not even a "slow" rate of loss by anyone's measure.
It's a damned good loss.

Em, what you're doing is *working*. So... why are you looking to
change it now?

IMO, if you are up to exercising, add some of that in and don't fool
with the diet just yet... unless you want to add carbs as per Atkins.
This doesn't mean adding crap, but adding veggies. Veggies are
good!

A lot of people find exercising easier closer to goal. The studies
I've read... men tend to exercise on the way, whereas women tend to
started exercising afterwards. But those who maintain over time
nearly ALL exercise.

Some walking probably wouldn't kill you. If you want to do something
more than that, I'd suggest strength training. The best resource I
know is Krista's site, which is aimed for women, but applies just as
equally to men (a squat is a squat no matter your gender):
http://www.stumptuous.com/cms/index.php

On Jul 30, 4:42 am, jackiepa...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 29, 6:54 pm, Chris <braun_ch...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > For the record: everyone I know who has had long-term success with a
> > low-carb approach has paid attention to calories consumed as well as
> > just carbs, as you are doing.
>
> I agree, but... usually people don't need to get into calorie-counting
> until close to goal.
>
> Em has just started and has lost 8 lbs in 2 weeks. This is not only
> not a stall, but not even a "slow" rate of loss by anyone's measure.
> It's a damned good loss.
>
> Em, what you're doing is *working*. So... why are you looking to
> change it now?


That was exactly what I thought too. Why worry about how many
calories are in a half cup of blue cheese dressing, as long as you're
losing very nicely? Also, as far as eating all you want, Atkins
said to eat just until your satiated and no longer hungry. That's a
lot different than eating all you want.




>
> IMO, if you are up to exercising, add some of that in and don't fool
> with the diet just yet... unless you want to add carbs as per Atkins.
> This doesn't mean adding crap, but adding veggies. Veggies are
> good!
>
> A lot of people find exercising easier closer to goal. The studies
> I've read... men tend to exercise on the way, whereas women tend to
> started exercising afterwards. But those who maintain over time
> nearly ALL exercise.
>
> Some walking probably wouldn't kill you. If you want to do something
> more than that, I'd suggest strength training. The best resource I
> know is Krista's site, which is aimed for women, but applies just as
> equally to men (a squat is a squat no matter your gender):http://www.stumptuous.com/cms/index.php

On Jul 29, 2:03 pm, "em" <i...@dun.no> wrote:

> 2) To cut the crap attitude that only carbs count and that I can eat
> anything so long as I don't go over the carb count.

I just want to add...

During induction, almost everyone overeats. Really. First, you're
getting to eat things like bacon and fullfat dairy and such, which
you've probably not had for a while and therefore feel "indulgent"
about. And second, you have all these cravings for stuff you're not
allowed to eat, so you tend to over-do it on the stuff you ARE
allowed.

Induction is not for weight-loss. Induction is for switching from an
insulin-mediated biochemistry to a glucagon-mediated biochemistry. It
feels a bit like withdrawal in a way.

In Atkins, OWL is the weight loss phase... and that comes *after*
induction. Sure you lose weight during induction, but it's mostly
water anyways. The real loss of fat comes after induction is over
with - cause mostly everyone overdoes it during induction. That's
fine, that's how it's *supposed* to be.

So... yeah, you may well have been overeating during induction, and
may have become aware of how strongly you crave carbs - that is what
induction *does*.

But you didn't crave bread or pasta or pastries because you were
eating too many carbs on induction. You craved them cause it's
withdrawal. The low-carbing DTs. You get over it.

As you get over it, you find yourself losing your appetite. Well, not
really. You have to learn what hungry feels like all over again
because it's a *much* less painful feeling than the cravings you get
when your blood glucose is high. When my bg is high, hunger is
*painful*. When it's not high, hunger is some little minor feeling
that I hardly notice and it becomes easy to forget to eat if I'm
engrossed in something.

It's VERY normal to have cravings in induction; it's just as normal
that your appetite will drop... if it hasn't already, it will in the
next week or two.

You don't need to *cut* carbs. Atkins recommends getting most of your
carbs from veggies, and eating more salad or green beans or spinach is
NOT going to make you lose control. Seriously, NO ONE ever got fat
from overeating broccoli or cabbage.

"em" <i...@dun.no> wrote:
>
> End result: 253 down to 245 -- 8 pounds in two weeks. Considering this was a
> switch from low-cal to low-carb, I think that's pretty damn good, as I
> didn't have bags of water to drop. Overall, I am now down more then fifty
> pounds from my original 298, and I'm really happy about that.

Especially since you switched from another type of plan, that
is a superior result.

> I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting out. In
> addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common sense.

Do you have any evidence for thinking that if low is good,
lower must be better? It's not true. The concept of the Atkins
CCLL is that every body has its own customized ideal carb
intake level for loss, and CCLM for maintenance. The idea of
the initial 20 is it's so low almost no one has ideal levels that
low.

> For example, a 1/2 cup of blue cheese dressing is very low in carbs, but
> that's like 600 calories. A half-cup of that stuff, per day, split between
> two or three green salads does not work for me.

Agreed. Over time I've gradually switched to eating salad
without dressing much of the time and with very little when
I have it.

But that's consistent with unmodified Atkins as well. Eat until
full not stuffed, let the appetite suppression effect allow you to
gradually taper down portions.

> My plan for the next two weeks is this:
>
> 1) To stay slightly below induction levels of carbs, because I think I have
> a low carb tolerance. I'm thinking 12-15 carbs is a good target -- that
> allows for copious amounts of greenery, two or three eggs and a little
> cheese.

Do you have any reason to think lower is better when it isn't for
something like 99.5% of the population?

> 2) To cut the crap attitude that only carbs count and that I can eat
> anything so long as I don't go over the carb count.

Moving away from overeating habits, good plan.

> 3) Allow myself one or possibly two treats a week of something that I've
> really been missing. A few oz. of almonds or 1/2 a cup of cottage cheese,
> something like that. Most people can tolerate these things, on low-carb, on
> a daily bases. NOT ME.

Another lesson from the other half of Atkins - The elimination
system of very restrictive Induction followed by a gradual easing
of those restrictions as a system to find your trigger foods and
food intolerances. It has an interesting consequence - You can
no longer afford to avoid trying foods on a schedule to avoid any
possible binge trigger. Now that you're through Induction it is
necessary to find the discovery of a binge trigger as a victory.
So you know you don't binge on lettuce, cauliflower, chicken,
beef and eggs. So what. Few can eat that forever. No try the
items on the carb ladder one at a time. Binge and you've found
a food you'll need to avoid from then on, but each and every food
from the carb ladder that you don't binge on is a food that expands
your allowed variety. Variety is good. Taking the view that
trying a new food and ending up binging as a victory, extremely
hard but a part of the process.

> As time moves on, every two weeks, I'm going to add three to five carbs to
> my daily diet, and experiment with different foods, until I figure out what
> works for me.

The process is every week. Step out in faith! It's *hard* to try
those foods from the carb ladder on schedule. But life has a
simple principle - Stepping out of your comfort zone leads to a
better you. You did well on Induction, the simple boot camp.
The hard step of moving out of cravings. Now it's the hard part of
finding out what does and doesn't work for you by following the
ladder.

Em, congratulations on seeing results from your hard work!



On Jul 29, 2:03 pm, "em" <i...@dun.no> wrote:
> End result: 253 down to 245 -- 8 pounds in two weeks. Considering this was a
> switch from low-cal to low-carb, I think that's pretty damn good, as I
> didn't have bags of water to drop. Overall, I am now down more then fifty
> pounds from my original 298, and I'm really happy about that.
>
> I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting out. In
> addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common sense.
>
> For example, a 1/2 cup of blue cheese dressing is very low in carbs, but
> that's like 600 calories. A half-cup of that stuff, per day, split between
> two or three green salads does not work for me.
>
> Another example: I have to learn to be satisfied with eating two eggs and
> two strips of bacon vs. four eggs and six strips of bacon. The carb counts
> are almost identical. The stupidity factor of the double+ portion is pretty
> high.
>
> My plan for the next two weeks is this:
>
> 1) To stay slightly below induction levels of carbs, because I think I have
> a low carb tolerance. I'm thinking 12-15 carbs is a good target -- that
> allows for copious amounts of greenery, two or three eggs and a little
> cheese.
>
> 2) To cut the crap attitude that only carbs count and that I can eat
> anything so long as I don't go over the carb count.
>
> 3) Allow myself one or possibly two treats a week of something that I've
> really been missing. A few oz. of almonds or 1/2 a cup of cottage cheese,
> something like that. Most people can tolerate these things, on low-carb, on
> a daily bases. NOT ME.
>
> And... that's about it!
>
> As time moves on, every two weeks, I'm going to add three to five carbs to
> my daily diet, and experiment with different foods, until I figure out what
> works for me.
>
> Thanks for all your support!

em wrote:
>
> End result: 253 down to 245 -- 8 pounds in two weeks. Considering this
> was a switch from low-cal to low-carb, I think that's pretty damn good,
> as I didn't have bags of water to drop.

Don't delude yourself.
Switching from low cal/high carb to low carb always
results in significant water weight loss at first
(until the storage glucose is used up). I tell
people about the water loss trick all the time.
A classic example is the person who has an event
coming up in a couple of weeks and wants to fit
into what is now a tight suit, dress, pants and
shirt, etc. Most anyone who isn't restricting
carbs and/or sodium can lose 5-15 pounds and really
loosen up tight clothing in two weeks by restricting
carbs, sodium, calories, exercising 30-90 minutes
a day, and taking daily saunas if available. Your
8 pounds probably would have been 10+ had you done
it all. The take home point is it's a trick. Go
back to high carb, especially considering the "stupidity
factor" that you mentioned (calories out of control),
and that 8 pounds will be right back on.

Basically, the way I see it, you took a break.
I know what that's like because I do it myself.
I do something I call "the ratchet method" where I switch
back and forth between low carb and moderate carb (around
40% of calories from carbohydrate) in an effort to prevent
stalls. When low carb stalls out and/or I get sick of the
menu, I switch to moderate carb for awhile with
the understanding that there will be a water weight gain.
The cool part is that as long as calories are still restricted
(it's not a binge or cheat period but rather part of a cycle),
the meal count it high (shoot for 6 meals a day with 2.5 - 3
hour spacing and a minimum of 5 meals), and exercise is
maintained or even bumped up a notch (carbohydrate is premium
fuel for mind and muscle which makes exercise easier), the
water weight gain will be less than that which is lost when
you switch back to low carb. In a word, your weight "ratchets"
down each cycle. Each cycle causes an increase that is followed
by a larger decrease and a new low. The sub-cycles (the low and
moderate carb phases of each cycle) can last as long as there
is a benefit. For example, when you get sick of 6 meals a day,
fruits, grains and other lower fat higher carb food you can
switch back to low carb with a lower meal count, lower calories
and less exercise. When that stalls out or gets boring you can
switch back to moderate carb. The ratchet method keeps it
fresh and is, in my opinion, a preferable/more effective
alternative to cheat meals and/or cheat days because it
keeps the calorie count under control and provides for cycled
meal counts and exercise intensity. The variety (change in
routine) is likely to be the magic ingredient. Don't be
surprised to see something like this as the basis for a
mainstream diet book at some point. Cyclical diets are
nothing new to athletes, but the typical layman dieter is
probably unaware. There is no one best diet for everyone.
Healthy people, and by that I mean people without issues with
specific foods or glucose/insulin problems, will respond
favorably to a variety of macronutrient ratios. That's why
there are so many diets to choose from; they all work for some
of the people some of the time. The quest for what works best
might also include regular macronutrient ratio changes over
time.

jackiepatti@gmail.com wrote:
:: Seriously, NO ONE
:: ever got fat from overeating broccoli or cabbage.

Ain't that the truth.

"em" <i@dun.no> writes:

> End result: 253 down to 245 -- 8 pounds in two weeks. Considering
> this was a switch from low-cal to low-carb, I think that's pretty
> damn good, as I didn't have bags of water to drop. Overall, I am now
> down more then fifty pounds from my original 298, and I'm really
> happy about that.

Excellent progress! As others have said, it sounds like what you're
doing is working great, so keep it up.

> I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting
> out. In addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common
> sense.

I'm not sure why that amount is "a bit much" for you. If it tends to
cause cravings, you may want to start monitoring your blood sugar.
Twenty g/day, or even 30g, shouldn't cause significant cravings if
your blood sugar is at all under control, but it could if you're
diabetic. Bernstein recommends staying away from even trace amounts
of actual sugar, like the less than 1g of maltodextrin in sugar-free
Jello. That may not be necessary, but you may find you have to watch
out for certain things.

> For example, a 1/2 cup of blue cheese dressing is very low in carbs,
> but that's like 600 calories. A half-cup of that stuff, per day, split
> between two or three green salads does not work for me.

Why not? I don't know how many calories you think you should get, but
200-300/meal isn't that many out of the total, is it?

> Another example: I have to learn to be satisfied with eating two eggs
> and two strips of bacon vs. four eggs and six strips of bacon. The
> carb counts are almost identical. The stupidity factor of the double+
> portion is pretty high.

I eat almost that much (usually 4 eggs and 4 strips of bacon) and I'm
losing weight, but I'm a pretty big guy; I don't know what size you
are. But two eggs and two (thick) strips of bacon only gives you 21g
protein and 343 calories; not very many unless you're a fairly small
and sedentary person.

> 3) Allow myself one or possibly two treats a week of something that
> I've really been missing. A few oz. of almonds or 1/2 a cup of cottage
> cheese, something like that. Most people can tolerate these things, on
> low-carb, on a daily bases. NOT ME.

I'm still not sure what you mean by "tolerate." Can you elaborate?


--
Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

"Aaron Baugher" <aaron_baugher@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:86odhtzec3.fsf@brinn.baugher.biz...
> "em" <i@dun.no> writes:
>
>> End result: 253 down to 245 -- 8 pounds in two weeks. Considering
>> this was a switch from low-cal to low-carb, I think that's pretty
>> damn good, as I didn't have bags of water to drop. Overall, I am now
>> down more then fifty pounds from my original 298, and I'm really
>> happy about that.
>
> Excellent progress! As others have said, it sounds like what you're
> doing is working great, so keep it up.

Thanks! & I will.

>> I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting
>> out. In addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common
>> sense.
>
> I'm not sure why that amount is "a bit much" for you.

I did low-carb some time back, maybe eight or so years ago? I did really
well for quite a while & then I screwed it up pretty bad. So I learned a lot
about what to do, what to not do and how to really screw up. I'm trying to
carry those lessons forward.

One thing I learned was that, at that time, IIRC, my tolerance for carbs on
OWL was around 35, which (I think) is pretty damn low. I also learned that a
lot of the foods that one is allowed to have when you up your carb limit are
foods that are real "trigger foods" for me, such as nuts and seeds.

I'm not in a hurry to eat more carbs and I'm just taking it one day at a
time. I have found, though, that less then 20 carbs/day is too restrictive
for me, and this morning I made the decision stick with 20 and see how it
goes. (I did quite a bit less then that during induction, especially towards
the end.)

What I remember from doing LC in the past is that you lose quite a bit
during the first two weeks, mostly water. Sometime within the next few weeks
you hit a period where you don't make any progress for about a week, and
then you fall into your regular loss pattern, whatever that is, say one to
two pounds a week.

I believe my OWL carb tolerance is going to be fairly low, and I'm not as
active as I was back then. I want to stick with 20 carbs until I see my
weight loss fall into some sort of pattern so that I can perform a
reasonably valid experiment to find out what my daily carb limit should be.

> If it tends to
> cause cravings, you may want to start monitoring your blood sugar.
> Twenty g/day, or even 30g, shouldn't cause significant cravings if
> your blood sugar is at all under control, but it could if you're
> diabetic.

I do have type-2.

> Bernstein recommends staying away from even trace amounts
> of actual sugar, like the less than 1g of maltodextrin in sugar-free
> Jello. That may not be necessary, but you may find you have to watch
> out for certain things.

There are a lot of things I have to look out for! Things that I want to eat,
that are low-carb, but I know I have difficulty with, I buy in small
amounts. Like almonds -- yah, I can buy the 16oz package for $3.99 but
they'll disappear that night. So I buy the 2 oz packackage for $1.99 and
save a dollar.

Actually, I've been doing pretty damn good. My kids have all kinds of
carb-o-la (as in crap-o-la) around the house, and I'm not even tempted to
touch it. I know, for a fact, that if I have that one bite of the wrong
food, I'll screw myself up.

>> For example, a 1/2 cup of blue cheese dressing is very low in carbs,
>> but that's like 600 calories. A half-cup of that stuff, per day, split
>> between two or three green salads does not work for me.
>
> Why not? I don't know how many calories you think you should get, but
> 200-300/meal isn't that many out of the total, is it?

Depends on what you pour it on, I usually have a can of tuna or a can of
chick with my salad, for example, which is another 150 calories or so. I can
get just as full by using a much smaller amount of mayo, its fewer calories
that way and I save those couple of carbs for something else.


>> Another example: I have to learn to be satisfied with eating two eggs
>> and two strips of bacon vs. four eggs and six strips of bacon. The
>> carb counts are almost identical. The stupidity factor of the double+
>> portion is pretty high.
>
> I eat almost that much (usually 4 eggs and 4 strips of bacon) and I'm
> losing weight, but I'm a pretty big guy; I don't know what size you
> are. But two eggs and two (thick) strips of bacon only gives you 21g
> protein and 343 calories; not very many unless you're a fairly small
> and sedentary person.

I rarely eat meals, I snack (and snack and snack) all day long. I might eat
bacon & eggs two or three times a day.

When I was doing low-cal I was writing down everything I ate. I eat like 10
to 15 times a day, and THAT'S when I'm watching myself and counting
calories! (I seem to be eating fewer times during the day since I started
induction.)


>> 3) Allow myself one or possibly two treats a week of something that
>> I've really been missing. A few oz. of almonds or 1/2 a cup of cottage
>> cheese, something like that. Most people can tolerate these things, on
>> low-carb, on a daily bases. NOT ME.
>
> I'm still not sure what you mean by "tolerate." Can you elaborate?

By tolerate, I mean what I can or cannot eat and still do well in regards to
losing weight, be that carb count or the propensity of a certain food to
drive me towards a binge.


> Aaron -- 285/235/200 -- aaron.baugher.biz

Em - 298/245/2??

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:03:45 -0700, "em" <i@dun.no> wrote:

>
>End result: 253 down to 245 -- 8 pounds in two weeks. Considering this was a
>switch from low-cal to low-carb, I think that's pretty damn good, as I
>didn't have bags of water to drop. Overall, I am now down more then fifty
>pounds from my original 298, and I'm really happy about that.
>
>I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting out. In
>addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common sense.
>
>For example, a 1/2 cup of blue cheese dressing is very low in carbs, but
>that's like 600 calories. A half-cup of that stuff, per day, split between
>two or three green salads does not work for me.
>
>Another example: I have to learn to be satisfied with eating two eggs and
>two strips of bacon vs. four eggs and six strips of bacon. The carb counts
>are almost identical. The stupidity factor of the double+ portion is pretty
>high.
>
>My plan for the next two weeks is this:
>
>1) To stay slightly below induction levels of carbs, because I think I have
>a low carb tolerance. I'm thinking 12-15 carbs is a good target -- that
>allows for copious amounts of greenery, two or three eggs and a little
>cheese.
>
>2) To cut the crap attitude that only carbs count and that I can eat
>anything so long as I don't go over the carb count.
>
>3) Allow myself one or possibly two treats a week of something that I've
>really been missing. A few oz. of almonds or 1/2 a cup of cottage cheese,
>something like that. Most people can tolerate these things, on low-carb, on
>a daily bases. NOT ME.
>
>And... that's about it!
>
>As time moves on, every two weeks, I'm going to add three to five carbs to
>my daily diet, and experiment with different foods, until I figure out what
>works for me.
>
>Thanks for all your support!

Nice, start! Congrads!

--
BlueBrooke
254/228/135

"em" <i...@dun.no> wrote:
> "Aaron Baugher" <aaron_baug...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "em" <i...@dun.no> writes:
>
> >> I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting
> >> out. In addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common
> >> sense.
>
> > I'm not sure why that amount is "a bit much" for you.
>
> I did low-carb some time back, maybe eight or so years ago? I did really
> well for quite a while & then I screwed it up pretty bad. So I learned a lot
> about what to do, what to not do and how to really screw up. I'm trying to
> carry those lessons forward.

So many people screw it up and need to start again. I've done
it. The important part is to ask yourself what choices you have
that actually work - Quiting and gaining it all back sure doesn't,
so the real choice is switching to some other type of plan or
trying to learn a lesson each fall so the next fall doesn't happen
for longer than the last one.

So what happened? Did you drop the carb ladder and start
eating stuff well up the carb ladder? Did you follow the carb
ladder, find a binge trigger, and treat it as a defeat instead
of learning a trigger food to avoid? Did you stop viewing it as
the right thing to do?

> One thing I learned was that, at that time, IIRC, my tolerance for carbs on
> OWL was around 35,

This means you were out of ketosis at 40, right? That's how
you find your CCLL - out of ketosis and/or carb cravings start
no matter how you get to that carb count even with broccoli.

> which (I think) is pretty damn low.

They seem to cluster around 50ish for most people. It's why
Protein Power by Drs Eades select the level of 50 for one
of their phases IMO. I've seen CCLLs range from 15 to 150
so while 35 is lower than the most common number it's still
well about the deliberate undershoot of Atkins Induction.

Consider that you could get to 35 using a carby breakfast
like steel cut oats and then eat like Induction for the rest
of the day, not all that low. Or eat root veggies like a serving
of carrot with dinner ...

> I also learned that a
> lot of the foods that one is allowed to have when you up your carb limit are
> foods that are real "trigger foods" for me, such as nuts and seeds.

On Atkins no food is ever allowed if it's a trigger. The carb
ladder is the order to try things to find out if they are a trigger
for you, not a list of what is allowed at what carb quota. If
you didn't understand this, you missed half of the conceptual
framework of the Atkins approach.

> What I remember from doing LC in the past is that you lose quite a bit
> during the first two weeks, mostly water. Sometime within the next few weeks
> you hit a period where you don't make any progress for about a week, and
> then you fall into your regular loss pattern, whatever that is, say one to
> two pounds a week.

That's the expected pattern. It is never guaranteed and each
restart has its own chance of following expected patterns or not.

> I believe my OWL carb tolerance is going to be fairly low, and I'm not as
> active as I was back then. I want to stick with 20 carbs until I see my
> weight loss fall into some sort of pattern so that I can perform a
> reasonably valid experiment to find out what my daily carb limit should be.

Do you have the belief that adding carbs will reduce your
loss rate? It won't. Keep your carbs too low and thyroid
starts cutting T3 output. That causes basal metabolism
to drift down and reduces loss rates. The point of CCLL is
it sets the carb intake high enough for the T3 reduction to
not happen but to keep insulin low enough for fat to flow
out of storage not into it.

> > If it tends to
> > cause cravings, you may want to start monitoring your blood sugar.
> > Twenty g/day, or even 30g, shouldn't cause significant cravings if
> > your blood sugar is at all under control, but it could if you're
> > diabetic.
>
> I do have type-2.

Then controlling blood sugar levels aces loss rates for you.
Track meter ratings as you move your quota up. Stop the
increases if you either drop out of ketosis or your blood
sugar levels start going up.

> There are a lot of things I have to look out for! Things that I want to eat,
> that are low-carb, but I know I have difficulty with, I buy in small
> amounts. Like almonds -- yah, I can buy the 16oz package for $3.99 but
> they'll disappear that night. So I buy the 2 oz packackage for $1.99 and
> save a dollar.

For me it's cashews. No matter the size of the package of
cashews I eat them until it's empty. Not a bad thing with a
two ounce package. A very bad thing with a 16 ounce jar!
My strategy was to try other nuts until I found one I didn't
have that problem with. A box of almonds, pecans or filberts
for me can last a long time since I can take a handful, close
the lid, and not think of it again for a couple of days.

So is using a smaller package the right idea given the
principles of Atkins? Food intolerances trigger binges and
addictive responses according to Atkins. The way to acheive
long term control is to learn all of your intolerances and
practice complete avoidance on them. Eat small packages
to control your portions and what you're doing is gradually
eroding your control. Especially at first I suggest following
this Atkins concept carefully. Try something other than
almonds for a while not sue small packages.

> Actually, I've been doing pretty damn good. My kids have all kinds of
> carb-o-la (as in crap-o-la) around the house, and I'm not even tempted to
> touch it. I know, for a fact, that if I have that one bite of the wrong
> food, I'll screw myself up.

One bite really does hurt. Maybe a direct binge, maybe
gradual erosion of control. Those temptations will never,
ever, ever, stop being under our noses in this world.

> I rarely eat meals, I snack (and snack and snack) all day long. I might eat
> bacon & eggs two or three times a day.

Hard to control. The concept of "three square meals" may be
nonsense for some, but I think for you it needs to be a goal.
Set up long term habits that give control not take it away.

> When I was doing low-cal I was writing down everything I ate. I eat like 10
> to 15 times a day, and THAT'S when I'm watching myself and counting
> calories! (I seem to be eating fewer times during the day since I started
> induction.)

Journalling is still a good idea on low carb.

> >> 3) Allow myself one or possibly two treats a week of something that
> >> I've really been missing. A few oz. of almonds or 1/2 a cup of cottage
> >> cheese, something like that. Most people can tolerate these things, on
> >> low-carb, on a daily bases. NOT ME.
>
> > I'm still not sure what you mean by "tolerate." Can you elaborate?
>
> By tolerate, I mean what I can or cannot eat and still do well in regards to
> losing weight, be that carb count or the propensity of a certain food to
> drive me towards a binge.

If it gives the urge to binge you need to avoid it not allow yourself
one or two exposures per week. Find other stuff to use as treats.

trader4@optonline.net <trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

> Why worry about how many calories are in a half cup of blue cheese
> dressing, as long as you're losing very nicely?

Who uses a half a cup of dressing at a time anyhow? Unless they're
swimming in it. Sheesh.

"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1185986690.192691.85830@m37g2000prh.googlegro ups.com...
> "em" <i...@dun.no> wrote:
>> "Aaron Baugher" <aaron_baug...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > "em" <i...@dun.no> writes:
>>
>> >> I do think that 20 carbs/day may be a bit much for me in starting
>> >> out. In addition to counting carbs, I need to use a little common
>> >> sense.
>>
>> > I'm not sure why that amount is "a bit much" for you.
>>
>> I did low-carb some time back, maybe eight or so years ago? I did really
>> well for quite a while & then I screwed it up pretty bad. So I learned a
>> lot
>> about what to do, what to not do and how to really screw up. I'm trying
>> to
>> carry those lessons forward.
>
> So many people screw it up and need to start again. I've done
> it. The important part is to ask yourself what choices you have
> that actually work - Quiting and gaining it all back sure doesn't,
> so the real choice is switching to some other type of plan or
> trying to learn a lesson each fall so the next fall doesn't happen
> for longer than the last one.
>
> So what happened?

The same thing that happened to my previous quit smoking attempts. One
cheat -- got away with it. Two cheats, three cheats... pretty soon back to a
pack a day.

The speed at which I can gain back lost weight is *amazing*. I don't have
any stats, but it seems like 25 pounds in a month is nothing. I'm sure a lot
of that is water, but holy cow.

I'm a [insert word] addict. Carbs addict, food addict, whatever.

There are a few things that have changed in my life that make me believe
that I will succeed this time for the long run. For one, I'm older and more
mature. Two is that I'm at the tail end of my divorce and wanting to date.
No women, it seems, wants to date an obese guy. Number three is that I went
through a very minor scare re. my heart. I went in for all kinds of testing,
nuclear whatever, treadmil, and my heart is in perfect shape. However, that
is like a HUGE blessing from G-d based on how I've treated my body. So, last
but not least, I'm hitting "middle age" & am starting to realize that I am
no longer immortal.

>> One thing I learned was that, at that time, IIRC, my tolerance for carbs
>> on
>> OWL was around 35,
>
> This means you were out of ketosis at 40, right? That's how
> you find your CCLL - out of ketosis and/or carb cravings start
> no matter how you get to that carb count even with broccoli.

Yes, and would start gaining back a little instead of losing it.

> Or eat root veggies like a serving
> of carrot with dinner ...

Carrots are about four carbs each. Not much, I know, but they're kind of a
trigger for me. I can eat a one pound bag of baby carrots just as easily as
a pound of raw almonds! So I may buy a nice carrot sometime at the grocery
store, then sit down on a bench outside the store and eat it as a treat.
Maybe if I'm on a walk & go past the store or something.

>> I also learned that a
>> lot of the foods that one is allowed to have when you up your carb limit
>> are
>> foods that are real "trigger foods" for me, such as nuts and seeds.

I've been thinking about that too. I'm getting a little anxous to up my carb
limit because I am starting to feel a little limited by the foods I can eat.
But I'm still commited to taking it slow.

> On Atkins no food is ever allowed if it's a trigger. The carb
> ladder is the order to try things to find out if they are a trigger
> for you, not a list of what is allowed at what carb quota. If
> you didn't understand this, you missed half of the conceptual
> framework of the Atkins approach.

I read the old book, the first DANDR. I never bought the second one. I also
read the original Protein Power, CAD, etc. I know how to count carbs and
why; I should probably buy one of the newer low-carb books and learn more.

>> What I remember from doing LC in the past is that you lose quite a bit
>> during the first two weeks, mostly water. Sometime within the next few
>> weeks
>> you hit a period where you don't make any progress for about a week, and
>> then you fall into your regular loss pattern, whatever that is, say one
>> to
>> two pounds a week.
>
> That's the expected pattern. It is never guaranteed and each
> restart has its own chance of following expected patterns or not.

I went on-and-off low-carb so many times in the past, I built up a tolerance
or something and it just plain stopped working for me. It seems to be going
pretty well now, though.

>> I believe my OWL carb tolerance is going to be fairly low, and I'm not as
>> active as I was back then. I want to stick with 20 carbs until I see my
>> weight loss fall into some sort of pattern so that I can perform a
>> reasonably valid experiment to find out what my daily carb limit should
>> be.
>
> Do you have the belief that adding carbs will reduce your
> loss rate? It won't. Keep your carbs too low and thyroid
> starts cutting T3 output. That causes basal metabolism
> to drift down and reduces loss rates.


That's an interesting thought! Do you have a reference for that?

> The point of CCLL is
> it sets the carb intake high enough for the T3 reduction to
> not happen but to keep insulin low enough for fat to flow
> out of storage not into it.

I'm not interested in staying at 20 carbs forever. I've done induction & am
looking forward to finding what my tolerance will be.

Lets see, I'm at 245. I don't know exactly where I need to be weight wise,
but I am a very big framed person. I'm thinking between 210 and 220 will be
about right. Either way, I expect to be there by the end of this year.

>
>> > If it tends to
>> > cause cravings, you may want to start monitoring your blood sugar.
>> > Twenty g/day, or even 30g, shouldn't cause significant cravings if
>> > your blood sugar is at all under control, but it could if you're
>> > diabetic.
>>
>> I do have type-2.
>
> Then controlling blood sugar levels aces loss rates for you.
> Track meter ratings as you move your quota up. Stop the
> increases if you either drop out of ketosis or your blood
> sugar levels start going up.

I have been controlling my blood sugar through my diet for quite a long time
& don't have my finger-poker kit any more. (Probably in the x's garage
somewhere.)


>> There are a lot of things I have to look out for! Things that I want to
>> eat,
>> that are low-carb, but I know I have difficulty with, I buy in small
>> amounts. Like almonds -- yah, I can buy the 16oz package for $3.99 but
>> they'll disappear that night. So I buy the 2 oz packackage for $1.99 and
>> save a dollar.
>
> For me it's cashews. No matter the size of the package of
> cashews I eat them until it's empty. Not a bad thing with a
> two ounce package. A very bad thing with a 16 ounce jar!
> My strategy was to try other nuts until I found one I didn't
> have that problem with. A box of almonds, pecans or filberts
> for me can last a long time since I can take a handful, close
> the lid, and not think of it again for a couple of days.

I love 'em all. Sunflower seeds are a good snack for me because you can find
them in small packages just about anywhere.

> So is using a smaller package the right idea given the
> principles of Atkins? Food intolerances trigger binges and
> addictive responses according to Atkins. The way to acheive
> long term control is to learn all of your intolerances and
> practice complete avoidance on them. Eat small packages
> to control your portions and what you're doing is gradually
> eroding your control. Especially at first I suggest following
> this Atkins concept carefully. Try something other than
> almonds for a while not sue small packages.

Makes sense. This is in the second book?

>
>> Actually, I've been doing pretty damn good. My kids have all kinds of
>> carb-o-la (as in crap-o-la) around the house, and I'm not even tempted to
>> touch it. I know, for a fact, that if I have that one bite of the wrong
>> food, I'll screw myself up.
>
> One bite really does hurt. Maybe a direct binge, maybe
> gradual erosion of control. Those temptations will never,
> ever, ever, stop being under our noses in this world.

"Gradual erosion of control." To me, that is where the "just one bite"
philosophy goes. Been there. Done that. I don't care who's b-day it is or
who I offend, I am not going to have that "one little bite" of birthday cake
no matter how hard my fat friends try to shove it down my thought. Bastards!
They're the reason I'm fat, you know ;-)))

>> I rarely eat meals, I snack (and snack and snack) all day long. I might
>> eat
>> bacon & eggs two or three times a day.
>
> Hard to control. The concept of "three square meals" may be
> nonsense for some, but I think for you it needs to be a goal.

Elaborate on that, please. It is calories/carbs per day that count. I find
my appitite is under much better control when I try to keep my stomach
small. I'm a big guy, and if I were to cut down to three squares a day, I'd
have to enlarge my stomach (I think). I'm not seeing that as a good idea,
but I'd like to hear you out on that.


> Set up long term habits that give control not take it away.
>
>> When I was doing low-cal I was writing down everything I ate. I eat like
>> 10
>> to 15 times a day, and THAT'S when I'm watching myself and counting
>> calories! (I seem to be eating fewer times during the day since I started
>> induction.)
>
> Journalling is still a good idea on low carb.

I'm going to hold off on that & see where I go with what I'm doing now. I
really hate having to write down everything I eat. I'll do it if I have to,
but only if I have to.

>> >> 3) Allow myself one or possibly two treats a week of something that
>> >> I've really been missing. A few oz. of almonds or 1/2 a cup of cottage
>> >> cheese, something like that. Most people can tolerate these things, on
>> >> low-carb, on a daily bases. NOT ME.
>>
>> > I'm still not sure what you mean by "tolerate." Can you elaborate?
>>
>> By tolerate, I mean what I can or cannot eat and still do well in regards
>> to
>> losing weight, be that carb count or the propensity of a certain food to
>> drive me towards a binge.
>
> If it gives the urge to binge you need to avoid it not allow yourself
> one or two exposures per week. Find other stuff to use as treats.
>

Another interesting thought! With cigarettes, you can give them up
completely. Same with liquor. Food, if your a food addict, you can't just
stop eating. I have been doing pretty good at controlling my binging for
some time now and still eat a lot of the foods I really enjoy. I bought a
16oz container of cottage cheese this week -- one of my favorite foods -- it
lasted for four days & I stayed within my limits. I've had two 2oz packages
of almonds and that went pretty well too. I could probably binge on just
about anything. If I do find something that drives me nuts and makes me want
to binge, as I continue on, I'll definitely avoid that food in the future.

Thanks!

"The Queen of Cans and Jars" <dhrravr@ohatzhapu.bet> wrote in message
news:1i26d14.1aikoncsq45xcN%dhrravr@ohatzhapu.bet. ..
> trader4@optonline.net <trader4@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> Why worry about how many calories are in a half cup of blue cheese
>> dressing, as long as you're losing very nicely?
>
> Who uses a half a cup of dressing at a time anyhow? Unless they're
> swimming in it. Sheesh.

C'mon now... I think we've all swam in some sort of something at one time or
another or we wouldn't be here. We'd be hanging out with our skinny friends
who pole vault during their lunch breaks.

I did say a 1/4 cup two times/day. That's only 4T -- not a lot of dressing
on a big green salad (with Tuna.... yummm...)

em <i@dun.no> wrote:

> "The Queen of C