depression and antidepressants: which

So, menopausal and treated for cancer last year, history of
depression....recurring in last seven years and worst in last 2-3....can't
use tricyclics, St. Johns Wort and sam-E and OTC stuff never helped...no
sleep problems, no hot flashes, daily aerobic exercise and weight training,
no problems with blood pressure or cholesterol...but severe depression with
suicidal ideation....talking helps (two therapists told me I knew more than
they did, oh great, thanks a lot) but friends say I should try Lexapro or
Cymbalta or SOMEthing prescribed. has anyone here age 50+ done so? I have
never been big on meds and am taking only the one to minimize chance of BC
recurrence. thanks for any help. I'll talk to my PCP about it.

pumpkin wrote:
> So, menopausal and treated for cancer last year, history of
> depression....recurring in last seven years and worst in last 2-3....can't
> use tricyclics, St. Johns Wort and sam-E and OTC stuff never helped...no
> sleep problems, no hot flashes, daily aerobic exercise and weight training,
> no problems with blood pressure or cholesterol...but severe depression with
> suicidal ideation....talking helps (two therapists told me I knew more than
> they did, oh great, thanks a lot) but friends say I should try Lexapro or
> Cymbalta or SOMEthing prescribed. has anyone here age 50+ done so? I have
> never been big on meds and am taking only the one to minimize chance of BC
> recurrence. thanks for any help. I'll talk to my PCP about it.

The stress of cancer can certainly make depression more likely; a
lot of depressive episodes follow major stressors.

Are you still menstruating? One thing that hit me out of the
blue during perimenopause was PMS (or PMDD) - depression during
the week before my periods, which I hadn't experienced before my
early-mid 40s.

I've had many years of being dysthymic, with a few episodes of
moderate depression. I have taken Paxil and Celexa and
Wellbutrin. Wellbutrin didn't seem to do much for me, nor cause
any side effects. Paxil initially put me on a pink fuzzy cloud,
but that wore off after a few weeks; it stabilized my mood, but
also was a bit numbing emotionally (sometimes you NEED to feel
the lows). Paxil has a very short half-life in the body, and
hence is difficult to come off (withdrawal symptoms are commonly
experienced unless the taper is very slow - a couple of months
for me). Celexa's effects were smoother, but also numbing, and
it took a few weeks to withdraw. Neither did much good for my
sex life :-(. Starting in my late 40s, I took Paxil for about 5
years and Celexa for about 5 years, and I've been off both for
about 2 years.

Right now I'm doing mostly ok on 1500 mg of tryptophan daily,
(although a combination of the death of a dog and a persistent
undiagnosed sinus infection recently threw me into a funk for a
month). I have tried 5-HTP, but it didn't seem to work as well.
(Tryptophan and 5-HTP are serotonin precursors.)

I tried rhodiola rosea for 3 months, and I think it left me worse
off, but other people have had good results with it.
http://sciencenews.org/view/feature/..._Cold_War_Herb

A couple of useful books:

"Feeling Good" by David Burns - self-applied cognitive therapy,
written by one of Aaron Beck's students. This is the best
self-help book for depression and dysthymia that I've read. It
gives you a lot of the exercises to work through that a cognitive
therapist would assign.

"The Mood Cure" by Julia Ross - nutritional approaches to mood
problems, emphasis on amino acids.

HTH -

FurPaw

--
The plural of anecdote is not proof.

To reply, unleash the dog.

> The stress of cancer can certainly make depression more likely; a
> lot of depressive episodes follow major stressors.

no, cancer didn't make me depressed! It's way down on my list of life
stressors, gotta say.
I came the closest to kiling myself a full year before the cancer diagnosis.
>
> Are you still menstruating?

no.
>
> I've had many years of being dysthymic, with a few episodes of moderate
> depression. I have taken Paxil and Celexa and Wellbutrin. Wellbutrin
> didn't seem to do much for me, nor cause any side effects. Paxil

tried that in 2003. didn't like it.

>
> Right now I'm doing mostly ok on 1500 mg of tryptophan daily,

tried that too, years back, for fibromyalgia and insomnia. I have no
insomnia any more, nor hot flashes (have never had one). tried melatonin
too, no benefit.

>
> "Feeling Good" by David Burns - self-applied cognitive therapy, written by
> one of Aaron Beck's students. This is the best self-help book for
> depression and dysthymia that I've read. It gives you a lot of the
> exercises to work through that a cognitive therapist would assign.

thanks, I'll get it from library.
>
> "The Mood Cure" by Julia Ross - nutritional approaches to mood problems,
> emphasis on amino acids.

nutrition never works for me, LOL, every time I try to "improve" my diet I
get sick! LOL.
>

On Jun 29, 3:39*pm, "pumpkin" <billowr...@att.net> wrote:
> So, menopausal and treated for cancer last year, history of
> depression....recurring in last seven years and worst in last 2-3....can't
> use tricyclics, St. Johns Wort and sam-E and OTC stuff never helped...no
> sleep problems, no hot flashes, daily aerobic exercise and weight training,
> no problems with blood pressure or cholesterol...but severe depression with
> suicidal ideation....talking helps (two therapists told me I knew more than
> they did, oh great, thanks a lot) but friends say I should try Lexapro or
> Cymbalta or SOMEthing prescribed. has anyone here age 50+ done so? I have
> never been big on meds and am taking only the one to minimize chance of BC
> recurrence. thanks for any help. I'll talk to my PCP about it.

There's a lot of information here on prescription antidepressants.

http://www.healthyplace.com/communit...ssant_list.asp

I am 56, surgical menopause in 2000. I took Lexapro for about 6 months
in 2005. In my case its effect lessened over time, and I was switched
to a related drug, Prozac. I have been taking Prozac since autumn 2005
and like it.

I don't know about Cymbalta, but another drug in the same category,
Effexor, is one I'd warn you about. If for any reason you need to or
decide to taper off Effexor, the withdrawal can be miserable for some
people. I was able to do so after 3 years of taking it, but I think
being a recovering alcoholic helped me in that I have had some rough
detoxes so I have more of a sense of the light at the end of the
tunnel in withdrawal than some people do. I'd research those factors
and if I had it to do again, I'd never have started Effexor.

Linda

In article <WpS9k.82687$102.22205@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"pumpkin" <billowroad@att.net> wrote:

> So, menopausal and treated for cancer last year, history of
> depression....recurring in last seven years and worst in last 2-3....can't
> use tricyclics, St. Johns Wort and sam-E and OTC stuff never helped...no
> sleep problems, no hot flashes, daily aerobic exercise and weight training,
> no problems with blood pressure or cholesterol...but severe depression with
> suicidal ideation....talking helps (two therapists told me I knew more than
> they did, oh great, thanks a lot) but friends say I should try Lexapro or
> Cymbalta or SOMEthing prescribed. has anyone here age 50+ done so? I have
> never been big on meds and am taking only the one to minimize chance of BC
> recurrence. thanks for any help. I'll talk to my PCP about it.

I've been on SSRIs for 13 years. I'm now 55. I've taken Prozac,
Zoloft, and Celexa. These days I alternate between Zoloft and Celexa,
switching about every 3-4 years, since I'm one of the lucky people
gifted with tendency towards "SSRI poop-out." That means that every
year to year and a half I have to either increase my dosage or switch to
a lower dosage of another med in the same family. By the time I'm up to
max dosage on the second one and it's stopped working for me, my
receptors will have reset to work with the first one again, and back I
switch.

SSRIs work very well for me, since serotonin's my problem
neurotransmitter. I do have sexual side effects (loss of libido with
Zoloft and difficulty reaching orgasm with both Zoloft and Celexa), plus
I sweat more, but otherwise they work well for me.

Priscilla

/communities/depression/treatment/antidepr...
>
> I am 56, surgical menopause in 2000. I took Lexapro for about 6 months
> in 2005. In my case its effect lessened over time, and I was switched
> to a related drug, Prozac. I have been taking Prozac since autumn 2005
> and like it.
>
> I don't know about Cymbalta, but another drug in the same category,
> Effexor, is one I'd warn you about. If for any reason you need to or
> decide to taper off Effexor, the withdrawal can be miserable for some
> people. I was able to do so after 3 years of taking it, but I think
> being a recovering alcoholic helped me in that I have had some rough
> detoxes so I have more of a sense of the light at the end of the
> tunnel in withdrawal than some people do. I'd research those factors
> and if I had it to do again, I'd never have started Effexor.
>
> Linda

Oh gosh, I just started Effexor last week. That is very scary. My
therapist and another professional recommended it for me for the mood
stabilizing qualities and my family practice doc prescribed it for
me. I don't do well with lots of medications and am still trying to
get used to it. I have an app't w/ a psychiatrist at the end of this
month (couldn't get in sooner with this doctor, but I hear she is very
good with the whole hormone thing).

Pat

Miss Trish wrote:
> /communities/depression/treatment/antidepr...
>> I am 56, surgical menopause in 2000. I took Lexapro for about 6 months
>> in 2005. In my case its effect lessened over time, and I was switched
>> to a related drug, Prozac. I have been taking Prozac since autumn 2005
>> and like it.
>>
>> I don't know about Cymbalta, but another drug in the same category,
>> Effexor, is one I'd warn you about. If for any reason you need to or
>> decide to taper off Effexor, the withdrawal can be miserable for some
>> people. I was able to do so after 3 years of taking it, but I think
>> being a recovering alcoholic helped me in that I have had some rough
>> detoxes so I have more of a sense of the light at the end of the
>> tunnel in withdrawal than some people do. I'd research those factors
>> and if I had it to do again, I'd never have started Effexor.
>>
>> Linda
>
> Oh gosh, I just started Effexor last week. That is very scary. My
> therapist and another professional recommended it for me for the mood
> stabilizing qualities and my family practice doc prescribed it for
> me. I don't do well with lots of medications and am still trying to
> get used to it. I have an app't w/ a psychiatrist at the end of this
> month (couldn't get in sooner with this doctor, but I hear she is very
> good with the whole hormone thing).

I don't have any experience with Effexor, but I understand that
the withdrawal is similar to Paxil, which I have taken, and
withdrawn from (2 times). Not every one has difficulty
withdrawing, but I think there are two key things here:

1. Be prepared for some withdrawal difficulties, and don't try
to stop it abruptly. Plan to taper off gradually, and that can
be over a period of several weeks. Since even Effexor and Paxil
have a half-life of a few days in your system, you can do things
like taking half-pills every 4th day and whole pills the other 3
days, then every 3rd day, then every 2nd day, then 1/2 pill every
day; then 1/2 pill every other day, alternating with nothing,
then every 3rd day, then every 4th day, etc., over a period of
several weeks, since your body will average the dose out over 2-3
days.

2. As Linda mentioned, knowing what symptoms to expect and
knowing that there is a light at the end of the tunnel (if you
have severe withdrawal symptoms) can help you from being
blindsided by the symptoms. One of the big ones for me was the
"zaps." Whenever I'd move my eyes rapidly from one side to the
other, I felt like I was getting a painless jolt of electricity
through my body and brain. Very disconcerting, until I found out
that it's a common symptom of withdrawing from SSRIs. It
eventually disappeared for me; Hubster, OTOH, who was on Zoloft
for a few years, says that he still gets the zaps now and then 3
years after going off it. But they don't bother him.

From what I've read, the longer you take an SSRI, the more
likely you are to experience withdrawal. One simple (and
oversimplified) explanation for this is that as your available
serotonin levels increase as a result of taking the drug, your
body starts producing less on its own. If you stop the drug
suddenly, you are in a state where your body isn't producing as
much, and that throws a lot of body systems out of whack. If you
do a tapered withdrawal, it still takes time for your body to
increase its own serotonin production, but the change isn't as
abrupt and the symptoms should be less. [Serotonin is a
neurotransmitter that does a lot of things besides affect mood -
most of your body's serotonin is produced in your intestines, and
is involved in regulating digestion.]

So if you've only taken Effexor for a few days and want to
reconsider, you _probably_ wouldn't experience much in the way of
withdrawal.

Here's a link with some other links:
http://www.healthyplace.com/communit...n_events_2.asp
or http://tinyurl.com/353rp

FurPaw



--
The plural of anecdote is not proof.

To reply, unleash the dog.

>
> I've been on SSRIs for 13 years. I'm now 55. I've taken Prozac,
> Zoloft, and Celexa. These days I alternate between Zoloft and Celexa,
> switching about every 3-4 years, since I'm one of the lucky people
> gifted with tendency towards "SSRI poop-out." That means that every
> year to year and a half I have to either increase my dosage or switch to
> a lower dosage of another med in the same family. By the time I'm up to
> max dosage on the second one and it's stopped working for me, my
> receptors will have reset to work with the first one again, and back I
> switch.
>
> SSRIs work very well for me, since serotonin's my problem
> neurotransmitter. I do have sexual side effects (loss of libido with
> Zoloft and difficulty reaching orgasm with both Zoloft and Celexa), plus
> I sweat more, but otherwise they work well for me.
>
> Priscilla

oh my gosh, you sound very brave! good heavens! can you say: What happens if
you don't take anything at all?

> I don't have any experience with Effexor, but I understand that
> the withdrawal is similar to Paxil, which I have taken, and
> withdrawn from (2 times). *Not every one has difficulty
> withdrawing, but I think there are two key things here:
>
> 1. *Be prepared for some withdrawal difficulties, and don't try
> to stop it abruptly. *Plan to taper off gradually, and that can
> be over a period of several weeks. *Since even Effexor and Paxil
> have a half-life of a few days in your system, you can do things
> like taking half-pills every 4th day and whole pills the other 3
> days, then every 3rd day, then every 2nd day, then 1/2 pill every
> day; *then 1/2 pill every other day, alternating with nothing,
> then every 3rd day, then every 4th day, etc., over a period of
> several weeks, since your body will average the dose out over 2-3
> days.
>
> 2. *As Linda mentioned, knowing what symptoms to expect and
> knowing that there is a light at the end of the tunnel (if you
> have severe withdrawal symptoms) can help you from being
> blindsided by the symptoms. *One of the big ones for me was the
> "zaps." *Whenever I'd move my eyes rapidly from one side to the
> other, I felt like I was getting a painless jolt of electricity
> through my body and brain. *Very disconcerting, until I found out
> that it's a common symptom of withdrawing from SSRIs. *It
> eventually disappeared for me; *Hubster, OTOH, who was on Zoloft
> for a few years, says that he still gets the zaps now and then 3
> years after going off it. *But they don't bother him.
>
> *From what I've read, the longer you take an SSRI, the more
> likely you are to experience withdrawal. One simple (and
> oversimplified) explanation for this is that as your available
> serotonin levels increase as a result of taking the drug, your
> body starts producing less on its own. *If you stop the drug
> suddenly, you are in a state where your body isn't producing as
> much, and that throws a lot of body systems out of whack. *If you
> do a tapered withdrawal, it still takes time for your body to
> increase its own serotonin production, but the change isn't as
> abrupt and the symptoms should be less. *[Serotonin is a
> neurotransmitter that does a lot of things besides affect mood -
> most of your body's serotonin is produced in your intestines, and
> is involved in regulating digestion.]
>
> So if you've only taken Effexor for a few days and want to
> reconsider, you _probably_ wouldn't experience much in the way of
> withdrawal.
>
> Here's a link with some other links:http://www.healthyplace.com/communit...tment/antidepr...
> orhttp://tinyurl.com/353rp
>
> FurPaw
>
Many thanks for the tips and the link - I w/drew from Librium, of
which I had taken a low dose of nightly for about fourteen years,
successfully a couple of years ago, tapering over a span of several
months. So I do know it can be done - and hopefully if I can maybe
switch to another a/d here in the next week or so, I'll do ok. I
appreciate the help!

Pat

In article <9uAak.88124$102.75865@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"fortunata" <pacifist@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > I've been on SSRIs for 13 years. I'm now 55. I've taken Prozac,
> > Zoloft, and Celexa. These days I alternate between Zoloft and Celexa,
> > switching about every 3-4 years, since I'm one of the lucky people
> > gifted with tendency towards "SSRI poop-out." That means that every
> > year to year and a half I have to either increase my dosage or switch to
> > a lower dosage of another med in the same family. By the time I'm up to
> > max dosage on the second one and it's stopped working for me, my
> > receptors will have reset to work with the first one again, and back I
> > switch.
> >
> > SSRIs work very well for me, since serotonin's my problem
> > neurotransmitter. I do have sexual side effects (loss of libido with
> > Zoloft and difficulty reaching orgasm with both Zoloft and Celexa), plus
> > I sweat more, but otherwise they work well for me.
> >
> > Priscilla
>
> oh my gosh, you sound very brave! good heavens! can you say: What happens if
> you don't take anything at all?

I'd rather not go back there, thanks. I enjoy living my life.

Priscilla

I didn't ask you to stop taking them, I asked what would happen if you did.
so "no comment" is the translation of your response. I apologize if I
implied something not intended. I was merely curious. it's a
reporter/researcher thing I guess.

enjoying is good. you're lucky.

On Jul 2, 1:31*pm, "fortunata" <pacif...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't ask you to stop taking them, I asked what would happen if you did..
> so "no comment" is the translation of your response. I apologize if I
> implied something not intended. I was merely curious. it's a
> reporter/researcher thing I guess.
>
> enjoying is good. you're lucky.

For me, if I am stable when I stop, I am fine with talk therapy
support, *unless* I start drinking alcohol. Within a month, that
triggers mania and depression which requires medication to break
through. Just stopping drinking does not end the craziness.

Linda

For me, if I am stable when I stop, I am fine with talk therapy
support, *unless* I start drinking alcohol. Within a month, that
triggers mania and depression which requires medication to break
through. Just stopping drinking does not end the craziness.

Linda

that's interesting. does exercise help? does anything "real world" like
meditation or? I am hanging on for now without meds or therapist, have done
pretty well the last week. it takes discipline during the "OK" times but
during the other times, that isn't enough, the boat just crashes through the
rapids. and the siren call of "checking out" is dreamily seductive.

thank you for your comments. I appreciate them. I don't drink at all, never
have, so it's interesting to hear accounts from people who do/have.

fortunata wrote:

> that's interesting. does exercise help? does anything "real world" like
> meditation or? I am hanging on for now without meds or therapist, have done
> pretty well the last week. it takes discipline during the "OK" times but
> during the other times, that isn't enough, the boat just crashes through the
> rapids. and the siren call of "checking out" is dreamily seductive.
>
> thank you for your comments. I appreciate them. I don't drink at all, never
> have, so it's interesting to hear accounts from people who do/have.

If you're looking for a drug-free approach, this book is
excellent (same thing I recommended to pumpkin):

"Feeling Good" by David Burns - self-applied cognitive therapy,
written by one of Aaron Beck's students. This is the best
self-help book for depression and dysthymia that I've read. It
gives you a lot of the exercises to work through that a cognitive
therapist would assign.

It gives you some tools that may help during the OK times, and
help forestall or mitigate the rough times.

FurPaw

--
The plural of anecdote is not proof.

To reply, unleash the dog.

Dale Carnegie was always my bible but I have to say right now I am very
impressed by "When Things Fall Apart," which a friend has for MONTHS been
nagging me to read. It really speaks right to the way I do things and see
things......in lots of ways. it's a wow.
I got a few tools from "what happy people know." Burns' book is on the way
from the library. thanks.

"FurPaw" <furrealpawdog@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:EvidnZob27RtkvHVnZ2dnUVZ_o_inZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> fortunata wrote:
>
>> that's interesting. does exercise help? does anything "real world" like
>> meditation or? I am hanging on for now without meds or therapist, have
>> done pretty well the last week. it takes discipline during the "OK" times
>> but during the other times, that isn't enough, the boat just crashes
>> through the rapids. and the siren call of "checking out" is dreamily
>> seductive.
>>
>> thank you for your comments. I appreciate them. I don't drink at all,
>> never have, so it's interesting to hear accounts from people who do/have.
>
> If you're looking for a drug-free approach, this book is excellent (same
> thing I recommended to pumpkin):
>
> "Feeling Good" by David Burns - self-applied cognitive therapy, written by
> one of Aaron Beck's students. This is the best self-help book for
> depression and dysthymia that I've read. It gives you a lot of the
> exercises to work through that a cognitive therapist would assign.
>
> It gives you some tools that may help during the OK times, and help
> forestall or mitigate the rough times.
>
> FurPaw
>
> --
> The plural of anecdote is not proof.
>
> To reply, unleash the dog.

On Jul 2, 5:20*pm, "fortunata" <pacif...@gmail.com> wrote:
> For me, if I am stable when I stop, I am fine with talk therapy
> support, *unless* I start drinking alcohol. Within a month, that
> triggers mania and depression which requires medication to break
> through. Just stopping drinking does not end the craziness.
>
> Linda
>
> that's interesting. does exercise help? does anything "real world" like
> meditation or? I am hanging on for now without meds or therapist, have done
> pretty well the last week. it takes discipline during the "OK" times but
> during the other times, that isn't enough, the boat just crashes through the
> rapids. and the siren call of "checking out" is dreamily seductive.
>
> thank you for your comments. I appreciate them. I don't drink at all, never
> have, so it's interesting to hear accounts from people who do/have.

This has turned into an update on me. If not interested, skim or
discard. Most important item: I was 3 years sober on July 1, 2008!!

I am what is called dual diagnosis, which means I have a psychiatric
diagnosis underlying the diagnosis of alcoholism. It is likely that I
originally used alcohol as self-medication. My other diagnosis is
schizo-affective disorder. In the 1980's I struggled through a series
of diagnoses because I didn't quite fit into schizophrenia or bipolar
but seemed to have elements of both. The drug that is my mainstay is
Depakote, which is a mood stabilizer. My depressions usually center
around specific life events - since 2003, a divorce, a 4 month
voluntary hospitalization, relocation from Indiana to Wisconsin in a
failed attempt to live with my parents, who then moved to assisted
living, and finally my own apartment in independent housing for the
elderly and disabled. The final shakeup was my husband's death at 83
in August 2006.

I hate exercise, and this goes back to the delights of physical
education in grade school. Does anyone here remember the Royal
Canadian Air Force calisthenics that President John Kennedy commended
to the grade schools early in his term as a way to get us all fit?
This is unfortunately my most vivid memory of his term, and I was just
awful at them.Treadmills scare me. That said, I do try to walk.
Depakote is well known for weight gain as a side effect, and I have
about 40 lbs. to get rid of.

I was a philosophy major is college - my husband was originally one of
my teachers - and my way of dealing with the question of suicide and
euthanasia has been to argue the question in terms of my own take on
morality. Over time I have decided the answer is no for me, and I am
careful not to play around with the question. As Dorothy Parker wrote
in Resume:

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~m...rker.html#resu

Anyway, philosophy is not for the faint of heart. What helped me as a
practical medititation technique is the school of thought of Eknath
Easwaran, who was a discovery of my husband's. Search Nilgiri Blue
Mountain Meditation Center in Petaluma CA if interested; they are also
the original source of the vegetarian cookbook Laurel's Kitchen.

I've been reading this group for about 10 years. This will give you an
idea of what's all gone on:

http://menopause.tripod.com/lblanchsite/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/menobeyond/

It's an old site and not actively maintained, so if some links don't
work, that's why.

I like your word discipline. That gets me through a day when other
things fail. AA worked for me as a tool, although I am not a fan of
the meetings. Hazelden in particular had some very good literature
that helped me a lot in the late 80's. I was continuously sober
1985-2002, relapsed, and was 3 years sober again on July 1st (this
week). For me it takes at least 2 years to feel comfortable sober
after drinking relapse, and I obviously took the hard road to learn
that. My drinking and subsequent mental disintegration were closely
tied to our divorce. During our 28 year marriage my husband was very
supportive. He probably was an unrecovered codependent but he didn't
care for AlAnon at all or for counseling either. Anyway, he helped me
to have a much more independent life than I could have maintained
This is who he was:

http://www.geocities.com/lindascheimann/method.html

Finally, my cat Fawn is essential to my day to day hope. She is part
of an AA saying you might find useful for other troubled times:

Get a plant. If it is thriving or even properly surviving a year
later, add a pet/companion. If all is well the next year, consider a
new relationship. But not before.

- since 2003, a divorce, a 4 month
voluntary hospitalization, relocation from Indiana to Wisconsin in a
failed attempt to live with my parents, who then moved to assisted
living, and finally my own apartment in independent housing for the
elderly and disabled. The final shakeup was my husband's death at 83
in August 2006.

reading this more than once, I note too that there was a another huge life
stressor in there, unmentioned: a marriage. or was the death actually of the
EX-husband? if not, you went through divorce, new romance, marriage, then
widowhood all in that period of time (sorry for patronizing, obviously you
already KNOW what you went through, duh !)

I hate exercise,

I'm so sorry.

and this goes back to the delights of physical
education in grade school. Does anyone here remember the Royal
Canadian Air Force calisthenics that President John Kennedy commended
to the grade schools early in his term as a way to get us all fit?

no, but he started the President's Fitness Program, I believe....my only
non-gold event was (urgh) softball throw. Girls can throw. the pull-up was
hard too.

This is unfortunately my most vivid memory of his term,

not Peace Corps, NASA, or Special Olympics?

and I was just
awful at them.Treadmills scare me.

I wonder if there's a name for that, along with arachnophobia and the
others...fear of wolves, fear of the number 13....mine is heliophobia...

That said, I do try to walk.
Depakote is well known for weight gain as a side effect, and I have
about 40 lbs. to get rid of.

I'm sorry.

I was a philosophy major is college - my husband was originally one of
my teachers - and my way of dealing with the question of suicide and
euthanasia has been to argue the question

Isn't that two questions? in Oregon we also have "assisted suicide," which
is a mutation of euthanasia. Kevorkian without the van. Vonnegut without the
fiction.

tied to our divorce. During our 28 year marriage my husband was very
supportive.

it sounds as though there is only one husband.

Finally, my cat Fawn is essential to my day to day hope.

that's a nice cat name.

Get a plant. If it is thriving or even properly surviving a year
later, add a pet/companion. If all is well the next year, consider a
new relationship. But not before.

philodendrons are hard to kill. ferns and diffenbachia always die, even in
the care of able people! Nephthytis will live almost no matter what.

for year two a cat.....feral cats find a way.....

relationships with people? soooo much harder.....

On Jul 4, 1:54*am, "pumpkin" <billowr...@att.net> wrote:
> - since 2003, a divorce, a 4 month
> voluntary hospitalization, relocation from Indiana to Wisconsin in a
> failed attempt to live with my parents, who then moved to assisted
> living, and finally my own apartment in independent housing for the
> elderly and disabled. The final shakeup was my husband's death at 83
> in August 2006.
>
> reading this more than once, I note too that there was a another huge life
> stressor in there, unmentioned: a marriage. or was the death actually of the
> EX-husband? if not, you went through divorce, new romance, marriage, then
> widowhood all in that period of time (sorry for patronizing, obviously you
> already KNOW what you went through, duh !)
>

One husband. I choke on the word "ex," although it made practical
sense I did not want the divorce. The age difference made it
impossible for me to enter assisted living with him and keep caring
for him, even if we had had the funds, which we did not. It was an
awful time for me. Recently, a doctor asked me in the course of a
routine interview if I was married, and I said yes without even
thinking, then had to backtrack. It's impossible for me to feel right
checking the box for divorced on a survey, etc. I have compromised on
widowed since his death. Since his first wife died with remarrying in
1996, there is no one else but me under that category. But, right,
former spouse was the term applied to me in the obituary. He was
buried under our stone at a lot in the last church he served (he had a
second career as a minister) and I am to be buried with him,
so..............


> re JFK:>>
> This is unfortunately my most vivid memory of his term,
>
> not Peace Corps, NASA, or Special Olympics?

No. Jackie's tour of the White House, the loss of their baby Patrick,
and JFK speaking in Houston the morning they got on the flight to
Dallas, saying Mrs. Kennedy needed a little more time to get ready and
then Jackie speaking to the crowd in Spanish, I think. After that,
hearing the news in 6th grade classroom, early afternoon.

> I was a philosophy major is college - my husband was originally one of
> my teachers - and my way of dealing with the question of suicide and
> euthanasia has been to argue the question
>
> Isn't that two questions? in Oregon we also have "assisted suicide," which
> is a mutation of euthanasia. Kevorkian without the van. Vonnegut without the
> fiction.

Not sure. My husband taught euthanasia articles as a unit in a intro
course in social ethics/ social philosophy. For a couple who both have
chronic health issues, the siren call can be dying together. For the
first, this article is dated but interesting:

http://www.religion-online.org/showa...asp?title=1891

and this is the classic husband wife death in theological circles,
also 1975:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...917217,00.html

If you read that article's end, you will see the position of Dietrich
Bonhoeffer, who was executed by the Nazis, on the question of life and
death. I like Bonhoeffer's writing a great deal.

Relationships with people are very hard, I agree. I in particular am
not good at endings.

Linda

I know Jacqueline was fluent in French, not sure about Spanish, but she was
a linguistically oriented person so just probably. very sorry about your
husband. I too still think of my partner as my partner, despite his marrying
someone else and being gone a long time. don't be hard on yourself. accept
it, enfold it...it's OK. be kind to that you.

"Linda" <lindascheimann@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:896299ac-23c8-4698-9b41-295edf9d35a0@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 4, 1:54 am, "pumpkin" <billowr...@att.net> wrote:
> - since 2003, a divorce, a 4 month
> voluntary hospitalization, relocation from Indiana to Wisconsin in a
> failed attempt to live with my parents, who then moved to assisted
> living, and finally my own apartment in independent housing for the
> elderly and disabled. The final shakeup was my husband's death at 83
> in August 2006.
>
> reading this more than once, I note too that there was a another huge life
> stressor in there, unmentioned: a marriage. or was the death actually of
> the
> EX-husband? if not, you went through divorce, new romance, marriage, then
> widowhood all in that period of time (sorry for patronizing, obviously you
> already KNOW what you went through, duh !)
>

One husband. I choke on the word "ex," although it made practical
sense I did not want the divorce. The age difference made it
impossible for me to enter assisted living with him and keep caring
for him, even if we had had the funds, which we did not. It was an
awful time for me. Recently, a doctor asked me in the course of a
routine interview if I was married, and I said yes without even
thinking, then had to backtrack. It's impossible for me to feel right
checking the box for divorced on a survey, etc. I have compromised on
widowed since his death. Since his first wife died with remarrying in
1996, there is no one else but me under that category. But, right,
former spouse was the term applied to me in the obituary. He was
buried under our stone at a lot in the last church he served (he had a
second career as a minister) and I am to be buried with him,
so..............


> re JFK:>>
> This is unfortunately my most vivid memory of his term,
>
> not Peace Corps, NASA, or Special Olympics?

No. Jackie's tour of the White House, the loss of their baby Patrick,
and JFK speaking in Houston the morning they got on the flight to
Dallas, saying Mrs. Kennedy needed a little more time to get ready and
then Jackie speaking to the crowd in Spanish, I think. After that,
hearing the news in 6th grade classroom, early afternoon.

> I was a philosophy major is college - my husband was originally one of
> my teachers - and my way of dealing with the question of suicide and
> euthanasia has been to argue the question
>
> Isn't that two questions? in Oregon we also have "assisted suicide," which
> is a mutation of euthanasia. Kevorkian without the van. Vonnegut without
> the
> fiction.

Not sure. My husband taught euthanasia articles as a unit in a intro
course in social ethics/ social philosophy. For a couple who both have
chronic health issues, the siren call can be dying together. For the
first, this article is dated but interesting:

http://www.religion-online.org/showa...asp?title=1891

and this is the classic husband wife death in theological circles,
also 1975:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...917217,00.html

If you read that article's end, you will see the position of Dietrich
Bonhoeffer, who was executed by the Nazis, on the question of life and
death. I like Bonhoeffer's writing a great deal.

Relationships with people are very hard, I agree. I in particular am
not good at endings.

Linda

In article <kQPak.89849$102.80648@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
"fortunata" <pacifist@gmail.com> wrote:

> I didn't ask you to stop taking them, I asked what would happen if you did.
> so "no comment" is the translation of your response. I apologize if I
> implied something not intended. I was merely curious. it's a
> reporter/researcher thing I guess.

Clearly what would happen if I stopped taking them is what I don't want
to go back to, the same thing I return to when they stop working. I
thought you could have figured that out from what I wrote, along with my
horror of the idea of returning there -- i.e. it's a very nasty place to
live.

Priscilla

I saw in one of the responses in this thread, sorry, I don't recall
which one now, that someone was taking tryptophan. Is that the
tryptophan of old, an amino acid (I think it was)? The one that they
stopped selling in the US because of what? maybe contamination problems
in Japan? I didn't know it was available again. Are you able to buy it
over the counter, like at vitamin stores?

I'm so interested because I used it back in the 80's with a combination
of other amino acids (at least that's what I think I they were) as part
of a weight loss/muscle gain. I had a book, it must still be here
somewhere, that I used with it.

Sharon Chilson wrote:
> I saw in one of the responses in this thread, sorry, I don't recall
> which one now, that someone was taking tryptophan. Is that the
> tryptophan of old, an amino acid (I think it was)? The one that they
> stopped selling in the US because of what? maybe contamination problems
> in Japan? I didn't know it was available again. Are you able to buy it
> over the counter, like at vitamin stores?

That was me. Yes, it is available again, although somewhat
pricey. I get it through iherb.com, where it costs less than
local health food stores, even with shipping.

> I'm so interested because I used it back in the 80's with a combination
> of other amino acids (at least that's what I think I they were) as part
> of a weight loss/muscle gain. I had a book, it must still be here
> somewhere, that I used with it.

The Mood Cure, by Julia Ross, talks about using tryptophan and
other amino acids, and other supplements.

(disclaimer - I have no commercial interest in iherb, tryptophan
or The Mood Cure.)

FurPaw


--
The plural of anecdote is not proof.

To reply, unleash the dog.

Thank you very much FurPaw! I'm looking in to it, as well as trying to
find my old book.

On Jul 3, 1:20 pm, Linda <lindascheim...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 2, 5:20 pm, "fortunata" <pacif...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For me, if I am stable when I stop, I am fine with talk therapy
> > support, *unless* I start drinking alcohol. Within a month, that
> > triggers mania and depression which requires medication to break
> > through. Just stopping drinking does not end the craziness.
>
> > Linda
>
> > that's interesting. does exercise help? does anything "real world" like
> > meditation or? I am hanging on for now without meds or therapist, have done
> > pretty well the last week. it takes discipline during the "OK" times but
> > during the other times, that isn't enough, the boat just crashes through the
> > rapids. and the siren call of "checking out" is dreamily seductive.
>
> > thank you for your comments. I appreciate them. I don't drink at all, never
> > have, so it's interesting to hear accounts from people who do/have.
>
> This has turned into an update on me. If not interested, skim or
> discard. Most important item: I was 3 years sober on July 1, 2008!!
>
> I am what is called dual diagnosis, which means I have a psychiatric
> diagnosis underlying the diagnosis of alcoholism. It is likely that I
> originally used alcohol as self-medication. My other diagnosis is
> schizo-affective disorder. In the 1980's I struggled through a series
> of diagnoses because I didn't quite fit into schizophrenia or bipolar
> but seemed to have elements of both. The drug that is my mainstay is
> Depakote, which is a mood stabilizer. My depressions usually center
> around specific life events - since 2003, a divorce, a 4 month
> voluntary hospitalization, relocation from Indiana to Wisconsin in a
> failed attempt to live with my parents, who then moved to assisted
> living, and finally my own apartment in independent housing for the
> elderly and disabled. The final shakeup was my husband's death at 83
> in August 2006.
>
> I hate exercise, and this goes back to the delights of physical
> education in grade school. Does anyone here remember the Royal
> Canadian Air Force calisthenics that President John Kennedy commended
> to the grade schools early in his term as a way to get us all fit?
> This is unfortunately my most vivid memory of his term, and I was just
> awful at them.Treadmills scare me. That said, I do try to walk.
> Depakote is well known for weight gain as a side effect, and I have
> about 40 lbs. to get rid of.
>
> I was a philosophy major is college - my husband was originally one of
> my teachers - and my way of dealing with the question of suicide and
> euthanasia has been to argue the question in terms of my own take on
> morality. Over time I have decided the answer is no for me, and I am
> careful not to play around with the question. As Dorothy Parker wrote
> in Resume:
>
> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~m...rker.html#resu
>
> Anyway, philosophy is not for the faint of heart. What helped me as a
> practical medititation technique is the school of thought of Eknath
> Easwaran, who was a discovery of my husband's. Search Nilgiri Blue
> Mountain Meditation Center in Petaluma CA if interested; they are also
> the original source of the vegetarian cookbook Laurel's Kitchen.
>
> I've been reading this group for about 10 years. This will give you an
> idea of what's all gone on:
>
> http://menopause.tripod.com/lblanchs...om/menobeyond/
>
> It's an old site and not actively maintained, so if some links don't
> work, that's why.
>
> I like your word discipline. That gets me through a day when other
> things fail. AA worked for me as a tool, although I am not a fan of
> the meetings. Hazelden in particular had some very good literature
> that helped me a lot in the late 80's. I was continuously sober
> 1985-2002, relapsed, and was 3 years sober again on July 1st (this
> week). For me it takes at least 2 years to feel comfortable sober
> after drinking relapse, and I obviously took the hard road to learn
> that. My drinking and subsequent mental disintegration were closely
> tied to our divorce. During our 28 year marriage my husband was very
> supportive. He probably was an unrecovered codependent but he didn't
> care for AlAnon at all or for counseling either. Anyway, he helped me
> to have a much more independent life than I could have maintained
> This is who he was:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/lindascheimann/method.html
>
> Finally, my cat Fawn is essential to my day to day hope. She is part
> of an AA saying you might find useful for other troubled times:
>
> Get a plant. If it is thriving or even properly surviving a year
> later, add a pet/companion. If all is well the next year, consider a
> new relationship. But not before.

linda,

congratulations on the july 1st milestone. hugs to you & fawn.

Linda wrote:

> This has turned into an update on me. If not interested, skim or
> discard. Most important item: I was 3 years sober on July 1, 2008!!


Congratulations, Linda! You've been through some very tough
times - that's a real achievement.

FurPaw
--
The plural of anecdote is not proof.

To reply, unleash the dog.

In article <KPednY2T67LqROfVnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@comcast.com>,
FurPaw <furrealpawdog@gmail.com> wrote:

> Linda wrote:
>
> > This has turned into an update on me. If not interested, skim or
> > discard. Most important item: I was 3 years sober on July 1, 2008!!
>
>
> Congratulations, Linda! You've been through some very tough
> times - that's a real achievement.

(How'd I miss that?)

Way to go, Linda!

PP