Estrogen-Depression Connection?

Would be curious to know opinion of knowledgeable people here on a
provocative statement, that women's depression in later life is
largely caused by estrogen deficiency at menopause. This statement
is made in this new book, and if correct, it may suggest a simple
approach to depression treatment:

"The Estrogen-Depression Connection: The Hidden Link Between Hormones
& Women's Depression"
by Karen Miller and Steven Rogers (May 2007), http://tinyurl.com/2fq9vn

>From book description:
"Research has shown a strong connection between estrogen levels and
depression throughout a woman's lifetime. We now understand that
abrupt hormonal changes can take a toll on women's moods and even
cause serious depression. But the good news is that there is a lot
women can do to moderate the effect of these changes."

Please advise. Thanks.

curious <lagavril@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1182392052.766582.231470
@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

>>From book description:
> "Research has shown a strong connection between estrogen levels and
> depression throughout a woman's lifetime. We now understand that
> abrupt hormonal changes can take a toll on women's moods and even
> cause serious depression. But the good news is that there is a lot
> women can do to moderate the effect of these changes."
>
> Please advise. Thanks.
>

Heh - and I'll be part of the 'lot' that women can do is to take
hormones. Drug companies just don't give up, do they?

I think the mood-hormone relationship is just too complicated to
interfere with. Especially since such depression is self-limiting.

Chak

--
Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget
us.
--Henrik Tikkanen

Chakolate <chakolateDeathToSpammers@gmail.com> wrote:

> curious <lagavril@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1182392052.766582.231470
> @q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>From book description:
> > "Research has shown a strong connection between estrogen levels and
> > depression throughout a woman's lifetime. We now understand that
> > abrupt hormonal changes can take a toll on women's moods and even
> > cause serious depression. But the good news is that there is a lot
> > women can do to moderate the effect of these changes."
> >
> > Please advise. Thanks.
> >
>
> Heh - and I'll be part of the 'lot' that women can do is to take
> hormones.

I was thinking that very same thing . . .

The worst of my depressions showed up when I was on Birth Control pills. I
felt depressed the last year of my peri-menopause...but now I'm not and I
have been in menopause for 5-7 years.
Jacquie
"curious" <lagavril@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1182392052.766582.231470@q75g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
> Would be curious to know opinion of knowledgeable people here on a
> provocative statement, that women's depression in later life is
> largely caused by estrogen deficiency at menopause. This statement
> is made in this new book, and if correct, it may suggest a simple
> approach to depression treatment:
>
> "The Estrogen-Depression Connection: The Hidden Link Between Hormones
> & Women's Depression"
> by Karen Miller and Steven Rogers (May 2007), http://tinyurl.com/2fq9vn
>
>>From book description:
> "Research has shown a strong connection between estrogen levels and
> depression throughout a woman's lifetime. We now understand that
> abrupt hormonal changes can take a toll on women's moods and even
> cause serious depression. But the good news is that there is a lot
> women can do to moderate the effect of these changes."
>
> Please advise. Thanks.
>

What menopause related depression??? PMS???

Anyway, here's what the WHI study found comparing the quality of life
of post menopause women taking HT compared to the women taking
placebo. Depression was one of the items counted.

http://www.whi.org/findings/ht/eplusp_qol.php

>Effects of Estrogen plus Progestin on Health-related Quality of Life
>March 2003

[small quote]
>The results showed there were no clear benefits for those taking estrogen plus progestin on any of the quality of life measures. There were no significant improvements on perceptions of general health, energy, social functioning, mental health, depression, or sexual satisfaction. There were slight improvements in women's physical functioning, bodily pain, and sleep disturbances at one year. These effects were very small, however. The average increase in physical functioning, for example, was less than one point on a 100-point scale. Most women would not notice such small differences in every-day life, nor would these effects outweigh the risks of estrogen plus progestin hormones for heart attack, stroke, blood clots, and breast cancer.
>
>Researchers then analyzed the data from younger women (50-54 years of age) who reported having hot flashes and night sweats -- the symptoms that cause some women to seek treatment. There were no improvements in quality of life for these 574 women except a small improvement (1 point on a 20-point scale) in sleep disturbance.

Kathryn

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 15:42:26 -0600, FurPaw <furrealpawdog@gmail.com>
wrote:

>curious wrote:
>> Would be curious to know opinion of knowledgeable people here on a
>> provocative statement, that women's depression in later life is
>> largely caused by estrogen deficiency at menopause. This statement
>> is made in this new book, and if correct, it may suggest a simple
>> approach to depression treatment:
>>
>> "The Estrogen-Depression Connection: The Hidden Link Between Hormones
>> & Women's Depression"
>> by Karen Miller and Steven Rogers (May 2007), http://tinyurl.com/2fq9vn
>>
>>>From book description:
>> "Research has shown a strong connection between estrogen levels and
>> depression throughout a woman's lifetime. We now understand that
>> abrupt hormonal changes can take a toll on women's moods and even
>> cause serious depression. But the good news is that there is a lot
>> women can do to moderate the effect of these changes."
>>
>> Please advise. Thanks.
>
>Scanning the table of contents and first chapter on amazon.com
>(all I can see with "search inside"), it sure looks like estrogen
>is going to play a large role...
>
>Chapters 6 and 7 appear to deal with estrogen therapy. A telling
>subheading is, "Additional benefits of HRT."
>
>Chapter 8 is "Alternative Approaches to Hormone Replacement
>Therapy." Talks about Alternative Choices, Checking on Ellen (?
>Ellen Langer of "Mindfulness"?), More of Eastern Medicine,
>Lifestyle Changes, Mind-Altering Approaches, and Western Medicine.
>
>- so it may not be 100% estrogen replacement.
>
>I haven't seen the book itself, nor could I find any reviews of it.
>
>While the book may suggest " a simple approach to depression
>treatment," I'd be very surprised if a simple effective
>treatment for menopause-related depression exists - and if one
>does, I'd be very wary of potential side effects.
>
>JMO.
>
>FurPaw

On Jun 20, 10:49 pm, Chakolate <chakolateDeathToSpamm...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> curious <lagav...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1182392052.766582.231470
> @q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>From book description:
> > "Research has shown a strong connection between estrogen levels and
> > depression throughout a woman's lifetime. We now understand that
> > abrupt hormonal changes can take a toll on women's moods and even
> > cause serious depression. But the good news is that there is a lot
> > women can do to moderate the effect of these changes."
>
> > Please advise. Thanks.
>
> Heh - and I'll be part of the 'lot' that women can do is to take
> hormones. Drug companies just don't give up, do they?
>
> I think the mood-hormone relationship is just too complicated to
> interfere with. Especially since such depression is self-limiting.
>
> Chak
>
> --
> Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget
> us.
> --Henrik Tikkanen


chak,
it may be my own foggy mental processes, but i'm not sure what you
mean about that kind of depression being self-limiting.

ellen

curious wrote:
> Would be curious to know opinion of knowledgeable people here on a
> provocative statement, that women's depression in later life is
> largely caused by estrogen deficiency at menopause. This statement
> is made in this new book, and if correct, it may suggest a simple
> approach to depression treatment:
>
> "The Estrogen-Depression Connection: The Hidden Link Between Hormones
> & Women's Depression"
> by Karen Miller and Steven Rogers (May 2007), http://tinyurl.com/2fq9vn
>
>>From book description:
> "Research has shown a strong connection between estrogen levels and
> depression throughout a woman's lifetime. We now understand that
> abrupt hormonal changes can take a toll on women's moods and even
> cause serious depression. But the good news is that there is a lot
> women can do to moderate the effect of these changes."
>
> Please advise. Thanks.

Scanning the table of contents and first chapter on amazon.com
(all I can see with "search inside"), it sure looks like estrogen
is going to play a large role...

Chapters 6 and 7 appear to deal with estrogen therapy. A telling
subheading is, "Additional benefits of HRT."

Chapter 8 is "Alternative Approaches to Hormone Replacement
Therapy." Talks about Alternative Choices, Checking on Ellen (?
Ellen Langer of "Mindfulness"?), More of Eastern Medicine,
Lifestyle Changes, Mind-Altering Approaches, and Western Medicine.

- so it may not be 100% estrogen replacement.

I haven't seen the book itself, nor could I find any reviews of it.

While the book may suggest " a simple approach to depression
treatment," I'd be very surprised if a simple effective
treatment for menopause-related depression exists - and if one
does, I'd be very wary of potential side effects.

JMO.

FurPaw






--
The Bush legacy - no child left a dime.

To reply, unleash the dog.

ellen <epdpster@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182546993.602395.6410
@o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

> it may be my own foggy mental processes, but i'm not sure what you
> mean about that kind of depression being self-limiting.
>

Eventually, it goes away on its own.

Yes, I know that in the meantime, you can live through hell. But if your
choice is living through hell or taking hormones that may kill you, why,
perhaps you should investigate more choices.

Chak

--
It is a paradoxical but profoundly true and important principle of life
that the most likely way to reach a goal is to be aiming not at that goal
itself but at some more ambitious goal beyond it.
--Arnold Toynbee

On Jun 22, 6:18 pm, Chakolate <chakolateDeathToSpamm...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ellen <epdps...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182546993.602395.6410
> @o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>
> > it may be my own foggy mental processes, but i'm not sure what you
> > mean about that kind of depression being self-limiting.
>
> Eventually, it goes away on its own.
>
> Yes, I know that in the meantime, you can live through hell. But if your
> choice is living through hell or taking hormones that may kill you, why,
> perhaps you should investigate more choices.
>
> Chak
>
> --
> It is a paradoxical but profoundly true and important principle of life
> that the most likely way to reach a goal is to be aiming not at that goal
> itself but at some more ambitious goal beyond it.
> --Arnold Toynbee


thanks for the clarification. after i posted i started thinking about
my history of depression, pms, etc & i remember from a prior thread
that many of you have dealt with mood issues & had good advice about
dealing with these challenges. since i'm new to educating myself
about menopause (my body is way ahead of me), i'm looking for
feedback about something that just occured to me.

i think i posted somewhere about having a bad reaction this winter to
yaz. after the fact, i just chalked it up to one of those "wow, that
was something, wasn't it?" drug side effect moments. the ob/gyn
didn't have much at all to say.

looking back at it now, i have to admit that it contained the most
profoundly terrifying hours of my life. i don't even think i can
really describe what it felt like - i'm no stranger to some pretty
dark places, but this was so sudden & severe & almost suicidal. it
scares me to even think about it. i spent the evening under a blanket
rocking in a corner just trying to get through it, telling myself that
it would be gone by the next day. & fortunately it was; i can't say
with any certainty if i could have endured a sustained period in that
state.

so as my perimenopausal symptoms increase in number & severity, i am
wondering if i may need to brace myself for possible recurrences of
this. frankly, i'm freaked out by the mere realization of it. has
anybody experienced anything similar or does anyone have any thoughts/
knowledge/advice one way or another about it?

thanks,
ellen

kathryn wrote:
> What menopause related depression??? PMS???

More properly, I think, would be to call it _perimenopause_
related depression. That does NOT imply that estrogen therapy is
the "treatment," by the way, nor that every woman experiences
depression during perimenopause, nor that every episode of
depression experienced during perimenopause is related to
perimenopausal changes.

And there is the intriguing finding that women who have had
depressive episodes prior to perimenopause are more likely to
experience perimenopause earlier than women with no history of
depression (see below).

These two studies report a higher incidence of depression during
perimenopause than during the premenopausal years:

"A diagnosis of depressive disorder was 2(1/2) times more likely
to occur in the menopausal transition compared with when the
woman was premenopausal (odds ratio, 2.50; 95% confidence
interval, 1.25-5.02; P=.01); the hormone measures were also
significantly associated with this outcome. CONCLUSION:
Transition to menopause and its changing hormonal milieu are
strongly associated with new onset of depressed mood among women
with no history of depression."
["Associations of hormones and menopausal status with depressed
mood in women with no history of depression."
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ysv7pe ]

and

"Premenopausal women with no lifetime history of major depression
who entered the perimenopause were twice as likely to develop
significant depressive symptoms as women who remained
premenopausal, after adjustment for age at study enrollment and
history of negative life events. The increased risk for
depression was somewhat greater in women with self-reported
vasomotor symptoms."
["Risk for new onset of depression during the menopausal
transition: the Harvard study of moods and cycles."
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2bl4t7 ]

Similar increased incidence of depression during perimenopause
were found in this study:
"A longitudinal evaluation of the relationship between
reproductive status and mood in perimenopausal women."
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ytlv3l


History of depression predicts earlier onset of perimenopause:

"RESULTS: Women with a history of depression had 1.2 times the
rate of perimenopause of women with no such history (95%
confidence interval, 0.9-1.6). Compared with nondepressed women,
depressed women with more pronounced depressive symptoms at study
enrollment (Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression scores >8) had
twice the risk of an earlier perimenopausal transition. Among the
women with greater depressive symptoms (Hamilton scores >8),
those who also reported use of antidepressants had nearly 3 times
the risk of an earlier perimenopausal transition (hazard ratio,
2.7; 95% confidence interval, 1.5-4.8) of nondepressed women.
Women with a lifetime history of depression also had higher
follicle-stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone levels and
lower estradiol levels at study enrollment and during the
follow-up period after adjustment for covariates."
["Depression and its influence on reproductive endocrine and
menstrual cycle markers associated with perimenopause:"
http://preview.tinyurl.com/24rrom ]

FurPaw

--
The Bush legacy - no child left a dime.

To reply, unleash the dog.

ellen <epdpster@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182557845.073536.160390
@q19g2000prn.googlegroups.com:

> i think i posted somewhere about having a bad reaction this winter to
> yaz. after the fact, i just chalked it up to one of those "wow, that
> was something, wasn't it?" drug side effect moments. the ob/gyn
> didn't have much at all to say.

Yaz is the oral contraceptive that's also prescribed for acne? I've read
some horrible things about it, but mostly on sites where adverse effects
are reported. You'd hardly expect the people who loved the drug to post
there.

> looking back at it now, i have to admit that it contained the most
> profoundly terrifying hours of my life. i don't even think i can
> really describe what it felt like - i'm no stranger to some pretty
> dark places, but this was so sudden & severe & almost suicidal. it
> scares me to even think about it. i spent the evening under a blanket
> rocking in a corner just trying to get through it, telling myself that
> it would be gone by the next day. & fortunately it was; i can't say
> with any certainty if i could have endured a sustained period in that
> state.
>
> so as my perimenopausal symptoms increase in number & severity, i am
> wondering if i may need to brace myself for possible recurrences of
> this. frankly, i'm freaked out by the mere realization of it. has
> anybody experienced anything similar or does anyone have any thoughts/
> knowledge/advice one way or another about it?

I'm not clear on why you're taking it? is it for bc, or to control
hormones, or what?

If you've had such a bad reaction, though, I'd stop taking it. I'm very
very glad you didn't hurt yourself last time, and I don't want to take
any chances on you hurting yourself in the future.

Chak



--
It is a paradoxical but profoundly true and important principle of life
that the most likely way to reach a goal is to be aiming not at that goal
itself but at some more ambitious goal beyond it.
--Arnold Toynbee

ellen wrote:

> thanks for the clarification. after i posted i started thinking about
> my history of depression, pms, etc & i remember from a prior thread
> that many of you have dealt with mood issues & had good advice about
> dealing with these challenges. since i'm new to educating myself
> about menopause (my body is way ahead of me), i'm looking for
> feedback about something that just occured to me.
>
> i think i posted somewhere about having a bad reaction this winter to
> yaz. after the fact, i just chalked it up to one of those "wow, that
> was something, wasn't it?" drug side effect moments. the ob/gyn
> didn't have much at all to say.
>
> looking back at it now, i have to admit that it contained the most
> profoundly terrifying hours of my life. i don't even think i can
> really describe what it felt like - i'm no stranger to some pretty
> dark places, but this was so sudden & severe & almost suicidal. it
> scares me to even think about it. i spent the evening under a blanket
> rocking in a corner just trying to get through it, telling myself that
> it would be gone by the next day. & fortunately it was; i can't say
> with any certainty if i could have endured a sustained period in that
> state.
>
> so as my perimenopausal symptoms increase in number & severity, i am
> wondering if i may need to brace myself for possible recurrences of
> this. frankly, i'm freaked out by the mere realization of it. has
> anybody experienced anything similar or does anyone have any thoughts/
> knowledge/advice one way or another about it?
>
> thanks,
> ellen

I haven't had or heard of reactions to a BC pill anywhere near as
strong as this one. Is it a predictor of future problems for
you? It's hard to say which component of Yaz triggered the
response, and it seems likely to me that it's something that
you'll never encounter in your "natural" transition through
perimenopause. If you can view it that way, it might not be as
scary a prospect.

HTH -

FurPaw
--
The Bush legacy - no child left a dime.

To reply, unleash the dog.

Chakolate <chakolateDeathToSpammers@gmail.com> wrote:

> ellen <epdpster@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182546993.602395.6410
> @o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>
> > it may be my own foggy mental processes, but i'm not sure what you
> > mean about that kind of depression being self-limiting.
> >
>
> Eventually, it goes away on its own.
>
> Yes, I know that in the meantime, you can live through hell. But if your
> choice is living through hell or taking hormones that may kill you, why,
> perhaps you should investigate more choices.

I went a-googling for depression and perimenopause, because I've been
having some cycle-related preoccupation with dying too soon as well as
general blah's. It's a very common combo - depression and perimenopause,
and one study showed that previously undepressed women can experience
depression when they hit perimenopause.

I tripped over this page which sums up my google search results pretty
good: <http://www.womentowomen.com/SYMdepressed.asp>. Yes, they are
selling something, but reading their article(s) is free.

--
Keera in Norway * Think big. Shrink to fit.
http://home.online.no/~kafox/

On Jun 22, 10:46 pm, Chakolate <chakolateDeathToSpamm...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ellen <epdps...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182557845.073536.160390
> @q19g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
>
> > i think i posted somewhere about having a bad reaction this winter to
> > yaz. after the fact, i just chalked it up to one of those "wow, that
> > was something, wasn't it?" drug side effect moments. the ob/gyn
> > didn't have much at all to say.
>
> Yaz is the oral contraceptive that's also prescribed for acne? I've read
> some horrible things about it, but mostly on sites where adverse effects
> are reported. You'd hardly expect the people who loved the drug to post
> there.
>
> > looking back at it now, i have to admit that it contained the most
> > profoundly terrifying hours of my life. i don't even think i can
> > really describe what it felt like - i'm no stranger to some pretty
> > dark places, but this was so sudden & severe & almost suicidal. it
> > scares me to even think about it. i spent the evening under a blanket
> > rocking in a corner just trying to get through it, telling myself that
> > it would be gone by the next day. & fortunately it was; i can't say
> > with any certainty if i could have endured a sustained period in that
> > state.
>
> > so as my perimenopausal symptoms increase in number & severity, i am
> > wondering if i may need to brace myself for possible recurrences of
> > this. frankly, i'm freaked out by the mere realization of it. has
> > anybody experienced anything similar or does anyone have any thoughts/
> > knowledge/advice one way or another about it?
>
> I'm not clear on why you're taking it? is it for bc, or to control
> hormones, or what?
>
> If you've had such a bad reaction, though, I'd stop taking it. I'm very
> very glad you didn't hurt yourself last time, and I don't want to take
> any chances on you hurting yourself in the future.
>
> Chak
>
> --
> It is a paradoxical but profoundly true and important principle of life
> that the most likely way to reach a goal is to be aiming not at that goal
> itself but at some more ambitious goal beyond it.
> --Arnold Toynbee


i didn't realize that they were prescribing yaz for acne. the ob/gyn
said it was the least risky short term treatment option for
stabilizing my fluctuating hormones & thus stabilizing some of my
symptoms. i've use oral contraceptives in the past with no major side
effects; went off of them at 35 & thought i'd give it a try. i think
i lasted 4 or 5 days. 1st i was sick to my stomach. the 2nd or 3rd
day i thought i was getting the flu - bad waves of hot flashed &
chills with severe muscle aches. woke up crying on the next day &
couldn't stop for a few hours - called the doc office & the nurse said
'oh, there aren't any side effects.' & since i wan't thinking clearly
i popped another one & later had the aforementioned episode. part of
the reason i was able to hold through was knowing i wasn't taking any
more of it. by the same time the next day i was back to my 'normal.'

the ob/gyn had never had a patient react that way before. but i
recently made the observation that i am on the rough end of the bell
curve.

thanks for the response & the concern. would love to never experience
that again.

ellen

On Jun 22, 10:56 pm, FurPaw <furrealpaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ellen wrote:
> > thanks for the clarification. after i posted i started thinking about
> > my history of depression, pms, etc & i remember from a prior thread
> > that many of you have dealt with mood issues & had good advice about
> > dealing with these challenges. since i'm new to educating myself
> > about menopause (my body is way ahead of me), i'm looking for
> > feedback about something that just occured to me.
>
> > i think i posted somewhere about having a bad reaction this winter to
> > yaz. after the fact, i just chalked it up to one of those "wow, that
> > was something, wasn't it?" drug side effect moments. the ob/gyn
> > didn't have much at all to say.
>
> > looking back at it now, i have to admit that it contained the most
> > profoundly terrifying hours of my life. i don't even think i can
> > really describe what it felt like - i'm no stranger to some pretty
> > dark places, but this was so sudden & severe & almost suicidal. it
> > scares me to even think about it. i spent the evening under a blanket
> > rocking in a corner just trying to get through it, telling myself that
> > it would be gone by the next day. & fortunately it was; i can't say
> > with any certainty if i could have endured a sustained period in that
> > state.
>
> > so as my perimenopausal symptoms increase in number & severity, i am
> > wondering if i may need to brace myself for possible recurrences of
> > this. frankly, i'm freaked out by the mere realization of it. has
> > anybody experienced anything similar or does anyone have any thoughts/
> > knowledge/advice one way or another about it?
>
> > thanks,
> > ellen
>
> I haven't had or heard of reactions to a BC pill anywhere near as
> strong as this one. Is it a predictor of future problems for
> you? It's hard to say which component of Yaz triggered the
> response, and it seems likely to me that it's something that
> you'll never encounter in your "natural" transition through
> perimenopause. If you can view it that way, it might not be as
> scary a prospect.
>
> HTH -
>
> FurPaw
> --
> The Bush legacy - no child left a dime.
>
> To reply, unleash the dog.


up until last night, i'd been viewing the whole thing as an
aberration. i guess i've been caught by surprise in so many ways by
this transition, that i would prefer to not have a repeat like that
blindside me. your response does help; i'm going to proceed as
before - that such a reaction is unlikely - but maybe come up with
some strategies for any unusual emergencies.

thanks,
ellen

On Jun 23, 5:01 am, thinkbig.shrinkto...@online.no (Keera Ann Fox)
wrote:
> Chakolate <chakolateDeathToSpamm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ellen <epdps...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182546993.602395.6410
> > @o11g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>
> > > it may be my own foggy mental processes, but i'm not sure what you
> > > mean about that kind of depression being self-limiting.
>
> > Eventually, it goes away on its own.
>
> > Yes, I know that in the meantime, you can live through hell. But if your
> > choice is living through hell or taking hormones that may kill you, why,
> > perhaps you should investigate more choices.
>
> I went a-googling for depression and perimenopause, because I've been
> having some cycle-related preoccupation with dying too soon as well as
> general blah's. It's a very common combo - depression and perimenopause,
> and one study showed that previously undepressed women can experience
> depression when they hit perimenopause.
>
> I tripped over this page which sums up my google search results pretty
> good: <http://www.womentowomen.com/SYMdepressed.asp>. Yes, they are
> selling something, but reading their article(s) is free.
>
> --
> Keera in Norway * Think big. Shrink to fit.http://home.online.no/~kafox/


thanks for the link (& thanks folks for the the prior links/info as
well). sorry that you have to deal with the mood component, but it
seems like you have good skills/strategies in coping with it. i may
ask be asking you future questions. for now, it's a beautiful day
here & i'm feeling good, so i'm going to take advantage of the
circumstances.

thanks,
ellen

ellen wrote:
> On Jun 22, 10:46 pm, Chakolate <chakolateDeathToSpamm...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> ellen <epdps...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182557845.073536.160390
>> @q19g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> i think i posted somewhere about having a bad reaction this winter to
>>> yaz. after the fact, i just chalked it up to one of those "wow, that
>>> was something, wasn't it?" drug side effect moments. the ob/gyn
>>> didn't have much at all to say.
>> Yaz is the oral contraceptive that's also prescribed for acne? I've read
>> some horrible things about it, but mostly on sites where adverse effects
>> are reported. You'd hardly expect the people who loved the drug to post
>> there.
>>
>>> looking back at it now, i have to admit that it contained the most
>>> profoundly terrifying hours of my life. i don't even think i can
>>> really describe what it felt like - i'm no stranger to some pretty
>>> dark places, but this was so sudden & severe & almost suicidal. it
>>> scares me to even think about it. i spent the evening under a blanket
>>> rocking in a corner just trying to get through it, telling myself that
>>> it would be gone by the next day. & fortunately it was; i can't say
>>> with any certainty if i could have endured a sustained period in that
>>> state.
>>> so as my perimenopausal symptoms increase in number & severity, i am
>>> wondering if i may need to brace myself for possible recurrences of
>>> this. frankly, i'm freaked out by the mere realization of it. has
>>> anybody experienced anything similar or does anyone have any thoughts/
>>> knowledge/advice one way or another about it?
>> I'm not clear on why you're taking it? is it for bc, or to control
>> hormones, or what?
>>
>> If you've had such a bad reaction, though, I'd stop taking it. I'm very
>> very glad you didn't hurt yourself last time, and I don't want to take
>> any chances on you hurting yourself in the future.
>>
>> Chak
>>
>> --
>> It is a paradoxical but profoundly true and important principle of life
>> that the most likely way to reach a goal is to be aiming not at that goal
>> itself but at some more ambitious goal beyond it.
>> --Arnold Toynbee
>
>
> i didn't realize that they were prescribing yaz for acne. the ob/gyn
> said it was the least risky short term treatment option for
> stabilizing my fluctuating hormones & thus stabilizing some of my
> symptoms. i've use oral contraceptives in the past with no major side
> effects; went off of them at 35 & thought i'd give it a try. i think
> i lasted 4 or 5 days. 1st i was sick to my stomach. the 2nd or 3rd
> day i thought i was getting the flu - bad waves of hot flashed &
> chills with severe muscle aches. woke up crying on the next day &
> couldn't stop for a few hours - called the doc office & the nurse said
> 'oh, there aren't any side effects.' & since i wan't thinking clearly
> i popped another one & later had the aforementioned episode. part of
> the reason i was able to hold through was knowing i wasn't taking any
> more of it. by the same time the next day i was back to my 'normal.'
>
> the ob/gyn had never had a patient react that way before. but i
> recently made the observation that i am on the rough end of the bell
> curve.
>
> thanks for the response & the concern. would love to never experience
> that again.
>
> ellen

Yaz contains Drospirenone, which I think is the component that
distinguishes it from other BC pills. It's a synthetic progestin
that has anti-androgenic effects and (in my brief reading)
appears to be the anti-acne component.

Your doctor may not have read the drug information carefully;
nausea, vomiting, flu syndrome and depression are listed as some
of the observed side effects in >1% of patients in the clinical
trials of Yaz, though not confirmed or disconfirmed to be
drug-related. http://rxlist.com, search for Yaz, then see side
effects on the 4th page. I'll bet the gyn got her information
about the "least risky" option from the pharm rep...

You should report it to the FDA Adverse Event program at
http://www.fda.gov/cder/aers/default.htm . It may turn out that
your reaction was more common than reported in clinical trials
(or that the manufacturer reported...), and the FDA does gather
this kind of data, although sometimes they seem to be pretty slow
about reacting to it.

I hope you never experience that again, either!

FurPaw
--
The Bush legacy - no child left a dime.

To reply, unleash the dog.

On Jun 23, 11:42 am, FurPaw <furrealpaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ellen wrote:
> > On Jun 22, 10:46 pm, Chakolate <chakolateDeathToSpamm...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> ellen <epdps...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182557845.073536.160390
> >> @q19g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>> i think i posted somewhere about having a bad reaction this winter to
> >>> yaz. after the fact, i just chalked it up to one of those "wow, that
> >>> was something, wasn't it?" drug side effect moments. the ob/gyn
> >>> didn't have much at all to say.
> >> Yaz is the oral contraceptive that's also prescribed for acne? I've read
> >> some horrible things about it, but mostly on sites where adverse effects
> >> are reported. You'd hardly expect the people who loved the drug to post
> >> there.
>
> >>> looking back at it now, i have to admit that it contained the most
> >>> profoundly terrifying hours of my life. i don't even think i can
> >>> really describe what it felt like - i'm no stranger to some pretty
> >>> dark places, but this was so sudden & severe & almost suicidal. it
> >>> scares me to even think about it. i spent the evening under a blanket
> >>> rocking in a corner just trying to get through it, telling myself that
> >>> it would be gone by the next day. & fortunately it was; i can't say
> >>> with any certainty if i could have endured a sustained period in that
> >>> state.
> >>> so as my perimenopausal symptoms increase in number & severity, i am
> >>> wondering if i may need to brace myself for possible recurrences of
> >>> this. frankly, i'm freaked out by the mere realization of it. has
> >>> anybody experienced anything similar or does anyone have any thoughts/
> >>> knowledge/advice one way or another about it?
> >> I'm not clear on why you're taking it? is it for bc, or to control
> >> hormones, or what?
>
> >> If you've had such a bad reaction, though, I'd stop taking it. I'm very
> >> very glad you didn't hurt yourself last time, and I don't want to take
> >> any chances on you hurting yourself in the future.
>
> >> Chak
>
> >> --
> >> It is a paradoxical but profoundly true and important principle of life
> >> that the most likely way to reach a goal is to be aiming not at that goal
> >> itself but at some more ambitious goal beyond it.
> >> --Arnold Toynbee
>
> > i didn't realize that they were prescribing yaz for acne. the ob/gyn
> > said it was the least risky short term treatment option for
> > stabilizing my fluctuating hormones & thus stabilizing some of my
> > symptoms. i've use oral contraceptives in the past with no major side
> > effects; went off of them at 35 & thought i'd give it a try. i think
> > i lasted 4 or 5 days. 1st i was sick to my stomach. the 2nd or 3rd
> > day i thought i was getting the flu - bad waves of hot flashed &
> > chills with severe muscle aches. woke up crying on the next day &
> > couldn't stop for a few hours - called the doc office & the nurse said
> > 'oh, there aren't any side effects.' & since i wan't thinking clearly
> > i popped another one & later had the aforementioned episode. part of
> > the reason i was able to hold through was knowing i wasn't taking any
> > more of it. by the same time the next day i was back to my 'normal.'
>
> > the ob/gyn had never had a patient react that way before. but i
> > recently made the observation that i am on the rough end of the bell
> > curve.
>
> > thanks for the response & the concern. would love to never experience
> > that again.
>
> > ellen
>
> Yaz contains Drospirenone, which I think is the component that
> distinguishes it from other BC pills. It's a synthetic progestin
> that has anti-androgenic effects and (in my brief reading)
> appears to be the anti-acne component.
>
> Your doctor may not have read the drug information carefully;
> nausea, vomiting, flu syndrome and depression are listed as some
> of the observed side effects in >1% of patients in the clinical
> trials of Yaz, though not confirmed or disconfirmed to be
> drug-related. http://rxlist.com, search for Yaz, then see side
> effects on the 4th page. I'll bet the gyn got her information
> about the "least risky" option from the pharm rep...
>
> You should report it to the FDA Adverse Event program athttp://www.fda.gov/cder/aers/default.htm. It may turn out that
> your reaction was more common than reported in clinical trials
> (or that the manufacturer reported...), and the FDA does gather
> this kind of data, although sometimes they seem to be pretty slow
> about reacting to it.
>
> I hope you never experience that again, either!
>
> FurPaw
> --
> The Bush legacy - no child left a dime.
>
> To reply, unleash the dog.



thanks so much for the info & support. it never occurred to me to
report it to the fda, but i just did. your post did make me recall
that the ob/gyn wondered if it might be the synthetic progestin.

feeling pretty physically lousy tonight & am reminded again by how
little i know about anything. especially myself -can't believe how
long it's taken me to make connections about my physical/mental states
& this transition, even with years of struggles with pms & such. &
how little i knew about menopause - seems like most women i know
haven't had a difficult time & i just didn't think about it even
though logically my history didn't predict anything easy. i don't
even know about my mom's experience since she died while i was in grad
school & we had just begun to repair an estranged relationship.

while i'm venting, i realize how angry i am at the doctors who never
connected it either.

so now i'm blathering on, even though i can't put sentences or words
together coherently. thanks for reading/listening/responding. i
appreciate all the help & information that everyone brings to this
group. i see the ob/gyn in a few weeks to assess my current state of
affairs & at least now i'll be walking in with a little more
knowledge. if i can remember it.

peace,
ellen

ellen <epdpster@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182648467.275474.45600
@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:

> feeling pretty physically lousy tonight & am reminded again by how
> little i know about anything. especially myself -can't believe how
> long it's taken me to make connections about my physical/mental states
> & this transition, even with years of struggles with pms & such.

Don't feel bad. I was posting here for ?six years and another poster had
to point out that what I was having were cold flashes. I just shuddered
through them without really connecting it at all.

Chak



--
It is a paradoxical but profoundly true and important principle of life
that the most likely way to reach a goal is to be aiming not at that goal
itself but at some more ambitious goal beyond it.
--Arnold Toynbee

On Jun 24, 12:19 am, Chakolate <chakolateDeathToSpamm...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ellen <epdps...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182648467.275474.45600
> @q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > feeling pretty physically lousy tonight & am reminded again by how
> > little i know about anything. especially myself -can't believe how
> > long it's taken me to make connections about my physical/mental states
> > & this transition, even with years of struggles with pms & such.
>
> Don't feel bad. I was posting here for ?six years and another poster had
> to point out that what I was having were cold flashes. I just shuddered
> through them without really connecting it at all.
>
> Chak
>
> --
> It is a paradoxical but profoundly true and important principle of life
> that the most likely way to reach a goal is to be aiming not at that goal
> itself but at some more ambitious goal beyond it.
> --Arnold Toynbee


thanks chak,

i already process at the pace of glaciation & i suspect that may even
slow down. so you weren't alarmed by the cold flashes? i've just had
a couple & they were pretty severe & bizarre; i didn't know what to
think or how to get warm. i take all tips on shuddering through (it
hasn't happened in public yet).

ellen

"ellen" <epdpster@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1182726433.076906.246730@p77g2000hsh.googlegr oups.com...
> On Jun 24, 12:19 am, Chakolate <chakolateDeathToSpamm...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> ellen <epdps...@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182648467.275474.45600
>> @q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > feeling pretty physically lousy tonight & am reminded again by how
>> > little i know about anything. especially myself -can't believe how
>> > long it's taken me to make connections about my physical/mental states
>> > & this transition, even with years of struggles with pms & such.
>>
>> Don't feel bad. I was posting here for ?six years and another poster had
>> to point out that what I was having were cold flashes. I just shuddered
>> through them without really connecting it at all.
>>
>> Chak
>>
>> --
>> It is a paradoxical but profoundly true and important principle of life
>> that the most likely way to reach a goal is to be aiming not at that goal
>> itself but at some more ambitious goal beyond it.
>> --Arnold Toynbee
>
>
> thanks chak,
>
> i already process at the pace of glaciation & i suspect that may even
> slow down. so you weren't alarmed by the cold flashes? i've just had
> a couple & they were pretty severe & bizarre; i didn't know what to
> think or how to get warm. i take all tips on shuddering through (it
> hasn't happened in public yet).

I'm slightly hyperthyroid, so if anything, I run warmer in general than most
people. But I've experienced cold flashes, too. Sometimes they've run
adjacent to a hot flash - alternating back-&-forth, & other times I was just
chilly all day long - which for me, is really odd.

Cathy

ellen <epdpster@gmail.com> wrote in news:1182726433.076906.246730
@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

> i already process at the pace of glaciation & i suspect that may even
> slow down. so you weren't alarmed by the cold flashes? i've just had
> a couple & they were pretty severe & bizarre; i didn't know what to
> think or how to get warm. i take all tips on shuddering through (it
> hasn't happened in public yet).
>

Heh - you have to realize that it was midwinter, and I don't turn on the
heat, and wear several layers of sweats. So I'm warm enough during the
day, but as soon as I go to bed, I'm cold for a bit. I would get in bed
with my six layers of covers and about the time I started to feel like
I'd be getting comfortable soon, a cold flash would hit. I kept thinking
that it was just my body reacting to the change of temp, but it didn't
happen all the time, just once in a while. Other nights I'd just get
more and more comfortable and be asleep before I got thoroughly warm.

Of course, then I'd wake up in an hour or two lightly slimed from a night
sweat. :-p

I didn't really do anything but shiver for the cold flash, and it went
away in 3-5 minutes or so. (I never looked at the clock.)

None of my flashes, hot, cold or sweaty, have been particularly severe.
My hot flashes are more 'warm flushes', and obviously the cold flashes
weren't much different than just being very cold. The night sweats I
don't even know about until they're over, I just wake up uncomfortable.

I take a couple of tablespoons of apple cider vinegar each day, and I
*think* it helps. I was noticing for a while that on any day I didn't
have the vinegar, I had night sweats, and when I did, I didn't sweat.
Whether it's still helping and whether if I stopped taking it the flashes
would get worse, I don't know and I'm not about to find out. I like the
vinegar diluted in a quart of tea, so I'm not messing about with what
doesn't need fixing, you know?

However, others have surmised that it helps diabetics more than it helps
nondiabetics. A former poster here, Marilee, said she thinks it helps
her, when she remembers to take it, but she didn't exactly keep a log.
And she's not diabetic.

So for the flash just live with it for five minutes - you can take most
anything for five minutes, right?

Chak

--
It is a paradoxical but profoundly true and important principle of life
that the most likely way to reach a goal is to be aiming not at that goal
itself but at some more ambitious goal beyond it.
--Arnold Toynbee

ellen wrote:

> i already process at the pace of glaciation & i suspect that may even
> slow down. so you weren't alarmed by the cold flashes? i've just had
> a couple & they were pretty severe & bizarre; i didn't know what to
> think or how to get warm. i take all tips on shuddering through (it
> hasn't happened in public yet).
>
> ellen
>
I'd read about cold flashes (on this group, I think) before I had
my first one, so it "only" took four or five before I figured out
what they were. Mine always took place in the middle of the
night - I'd wake up shivering, with my teeth chattering, and it
took several minutes to get warm. Throwing on more covers didn't
help. Getting up and walking around did help - although it was
the last thing I wanted to do, my bladder would insist, and then
the cold flash would be pretty much gone by the time I got back
to bed.

So perhaps moving around helps increase your core temperature
enough to stop the cold flash? You could give it a try.

I experienced cold flashes starting about 2 years
post-hysterectomy (including ovaries), but I was already in
menopause when that happened. They happened off and on for about
a year, IIRC, and then stopped. I still get the occasional hot
flash, 8 years post-hysterectomy.

There was an article a couple of years ago about how women who
experience more hot flashes have less tolerance for increases in
core body temperature ... here it is:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/510409

Although the article only discusses hot flashes, I suspect that
some of us, for a period, also are more sensitive to drops in
core temperature, too.

FurPaw

--
The Bush legacy - no child left a dime.

To reply, unleash the dog.

FurPaw <furrealpawdog@gmail.com> wrote in
news:XZGdnQVxl9lOieLbnZ2dnUVZ_oKnnZ2d@comcast.com:

> I'd read about cold flashes (on this group, I think) before I had
> my first one, so it "only" took four or five before I figured out
> what they were. Mine always took place in the middle of the
> night - I'd wake up shivering, with my teeth chattering, and it
> took several minutes to get warm. Throwing on more covers didn't
> help. Getting up and walking around did help - although it was
> the last thing I wanted to do, my bladder would insist, and then
> the cold flash would be pretty much gone by the time I got back
> to bed.
>

Oh, that reminds me - the one thing I tried to do for the cold flashes
was deep breathing. I can't tell for sure if it helped, although it
seemed to. It's just as good a bet, though, that focussing on and
thinking about doing the deep breathing just made the time pass faster,
and the cold flash lasted just as long. <shrug>

Chak

--
It is a paradoxical but profoundly true and important principle of life
that the most likely way to reach a goal is to be aiming not at that goal
itself but at some more ambitious goal beyond it.
--Arnold Toynbee

On Jun 24, 10:44 pm, Chakolate <chakolateDeathToSpamm...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> FurPaw <furrealpaw...@gmail.com> wrote innews:XZGdnQVxl9lOieLbnZ2dnUVZ_oKnnZ2d@comcast.co m:
>
> > I'd read about cold flashes (on this group, I think) before I had
> > my first one, so it "only" took four or five before I figured out
> > what they were. Mine always took place in the middle of the
> > night - I'd wake up shivering, with my teeth chattering, and it
> > took several minutes to get warm. Throwing on more covers didn't
> > help. Getting up and walking around did help - although it was
> > the last thing I wanted to do, my bladder would insist, and then
> > the cold flash would be pretty much gone by the time I got back
> > to bed.
>
> Oh, that reminds me - the one thing I tried to do for the cold flashes
> was deep breathing. I can't tell for sure if it helped, although it
> seemed to. It's just as good a bet, though, that focussing on and
> thinking about doing the deep breathing just made the time pass faster,
> and the cold flash lasted just as long. <shrug>
>
> Chak
>
> --
> It is a paradoxical but profoundly true and important principle of life
> that the most likely way to reach a goal is to be aiming not at that goal
> itself but at some more ambitious goal beyond it.
> --Arnold Toynbee



thanks ladies,

i've always had a pretty narrow band of optimal temp operating
conditions, both internally & externally it seems (if that makes any
sense). i'm jotting down all these suggestions; i swear the first
time it happened that it lasted at least a half hour, but i may not
have addressed the warming aspect early enough & may have been just
experiencing the residual effects. the last time it happened, i did
start moving around & it was less severe in length/intensity. sounds
like the breathing exercises are going to become increasingly
important all the way around.

no fall camping trips to alaska for me this year, but very glad to
have that denali sleeping bag.

ellen