Re: Switching

Thanks for all of your replies yesterday. They are very informative
and helpful.

My doctor has called in a prescription for estradiol and for natural
progesterone cream, which you are very right, btw, is really
expensive. It's not something my health plan covers, but hopefully it
will be worth the cost.

What might I expect from switching tomorrow? I guess I'm especially
worried about that revved up feeling I got when I tried to take
Activella, which is estradiol and the synthetic progesterone. And
lack of sleep.

I have chronic fatigue syndrome, and for me one of the manifestations
of it is that I do seem to react more strongly to medications than
other people. This seems more true for me the older I get.

I'm still having these weird shivers, and they seem to be related to
the Prempro. Don't know what that's all about, but I don't like them!

x-no-archive: yes

Miss Trish wrote:
> Thanks for all of your replies yesterday. They are very informative
> and helpful.
>
> My doctor has called in a prescription for estradiol and for natural
> progesterone cream, which you are very right, btw, is really
> expensive. It's not something my health plan covers, but hopefully it
> will be worth the cost.
>
> What might I expect from switching tomorrow? I guess I'm especially
> worried about that revved up feeling I got when I tried to take
> Activella, which is estradiol and the synthetic progesterone. And
> lack of sleep.
>
> I have chronic fatigue syndrome, and for me one of the manifestations
> of it is that I do seem to react more strongly to medications than
> other people. This seems more true for me the older I get.
>
> I'm still having these weird shivers, and they seem to be related to
> the Prempro. Don't know what that's all about, but I don't like them!


Just be aware, that chronic fatigue syndrome includes dysfunctional HPA
axis symptoms, which includes all of your adrenal hormones. Switching
from oral estrogen to transdermal is going to lower your cortisol
binding globulin a LOT and you may go from feeling hypo adrenal to
feeling hyper, at least for a bit, as a lot more cortisol is freely
avaialable due to binding globulin reduction.

I know this all sounds completely like Greek language, but it's been the
story of my life these past few years.

Susan

On Mar 4, 3:06*pm, Susan <neverm...@nomail.com> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
>
>
>
>
> Miss Trish wrote:
> > Thanks for all of your replies yesterday. *They are very informative
> > and helpful.
>
> > My doctor has called in a prescription for estradiol and for natural
> > progesterone cream, which you are very right, btw, is really
> > expensive. *It's not something my health plan covers, but hopefully it
> > will be worth the cost.
>
> > What might I expect from switching tomorrow? *I guess I'm especially
> > worried about that revved up feeling I got when I tried to take
> > Activella, which is estradiol and the synthetic progesterone. *And
> > lack of sleep.
>
> > I have chronic fatigue syndrome, and for me one of the manifestations
> > of it is that I do seem to react more strongly to medications than
> > other people. *This seems more true for me the older I get.
>
> > I'm still having these weird shivers, and they seem to be related to
> > the Prempro. *Don't know what that's all about, but I don't like them!
>
> Just be aware, that chronic fatigue syndrome includes dysfunctional HPA
> axis symptoms, which includes all of your adrenal hormones. Switching
> from oral estrogen to transdermal is going to lower your cortisol
> binding globulin a LOT and you may go from feeling hypo adrenal to
> feeling hyper, at least for a bit, as a lot more cortisol is freely
> avaialable due to binding globulin reduction.
>
> I know this all sounds completely like Greek language, but it's been the
> story of my life these past few years.
>
> Susan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Sorry - the estrogen is still oral; it's just the progesterone that's
cream. So hopefully I won't feel hyper.

Pat

x-no-archive: yes

Miss Trish wrote:

> Sorry - the estrogen is still oral; it's just the progesterone that's
> cream. So hopefully I won't feel hyper.

I'd urge you to switch from oral to transdermal, then. You can get the
same estrogenic effects with a much lower dose, and without screwing
with your HPA axis. Your body has to overproduce cortisol in order to
overcome the excess cortisol binding globulin the oral estrogens cause.

Excess cortisol makes a mess of everything.

Susan

On Mar 4, 4:36*pm, Susan <neverm...@nomail.com> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Miss Trish wrote:
> > Sorry - the estrogen is still oral; it's just the progesterone that's
> > cream. *So hopefully I won't feel hyper.
>
> I'd urge you to switch from oral to transdermal, then. *You can get the
> same estrogenic effects with a much lower dose, and without screwing
> with your HPA axis. *Your body has to overproduce cortisol in order to
> overcome the excess cortisol binding globulin the oral estrogens cause.
>
> Excess cortisol makes a mess of everything.
>
> Susan

I'd like to do that - my doctor has let me know, though, that she
really wants me to try it this way for three months. Shopping for a
new doctor at this point just seems overwhelming, especially
considering how long it takes to get in to see one. And add in health
coverage limitations....

However, if I can't tolerate the estradiol, I am thinking of estriol
instead. Is that what you were talking about? I don't know if she'd
consider it or not. This stuff is expensive!

One more question on this:

She prescribed 1 mg. of the estradiol, which is at the high end. I
wasn't taking the largest dose of Prempro. Would there be any harm in
cutting it in half? Would I then need to reduce the progesterone (2
grams prescribed)? Thanks! I appreciate you guys so much.

x-no-archive: yes

Miss Trish wrote:

> I'd like to do that - my doctor has let me know, though, that she
> really wants me to try it this way for three months. Shopping for a
> new doctor at this point just seems overwhelming, especially
> considering how long it takes to get in to see one. And add in health
> coverage limitations....
>
> However, if I can't tolerate the estradiol, I am thinking of estriol
> instead. Is that what you were talking about? I don't know if she'd
> consider it or not. This stuff is expensive!

I use estradiol transdermal, not estriol. I used to use a bioidentical
cream containing estriol and estrone, but my endocrinologist didn't like
the estrone and uses straight estradiol.

Susan

x-no-archive: yes

Miss Trish wrote:
> One more question on this:
>
> She prescribed 1 mg. of the estradiol, which is at the high end. I
> wasn't taking the largest dose of Prempro. Would there be any harm in
> cutting it in half? Would I then need to reduce the progesterone (2
> grams prescribed)? Thanks! I appreciate you guys so much.

2 grams of progesterone???? Check that dose and get back to us???

I don't know about doses of oral estradiol. You could try starting on
half and see how you feel. I'd cut the progesterone in proportion.

Susan

Thanks - I might see how I do on the full strength and cut it if I'm
too wired to sleep, or have that heart pounding in my ears feeling
when I go to bed.

On Mar 4, 7:04*pm, Miss Trish <trishca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Thanks - I might see how I do on the full strength and cut it if I'm
> too wired to sleep, or have that heart pounding in my ears feeling
> when I go to bed.

Trish,
I'm taking .5 mg. estradiol daily to good effect, but if you decide to
cut to that, definitely do it gradually. 1.25 mg. of premarin is
approximately equivalent to 1 mg. estradiol (oral). And like Susan
said, cut the progesterone too. I remember reading that estriol
doesn't increase breast cancer risk, but it is rather expensive.
Estrone is believed to increase breast cancer risk. Wasn't the higher
breast cancer risk in womens' studies from Prempro?
I ran across some info about progesterone. Synthetic progesterone
(Provera or medroxyprogesterone) starts out as natural progesterone
and is altered by the manufacturer so it can be patented (natural
products can't be patented). Provera causes side effects like
bloating, headaches, and gallbladder disease which you don't get with
the natural stuff.
There is an oral natural progesterone, Prometrium--micronized in a
peanut oil base.
Many fanciful claims are made for progesterone cream, especially by
Dr. Lee's book. Supposedly if you use it at night it will make you
sleepy, but that didn't pan out for me. It must work for some women.
There are also lots of creams on the market that contain very little
progesterone, so it's wise to get it from a pharmacy. Wild yam cream
is said to be worthless.
Heart palpitations are a known menopause symptom.
Les

On Mar 5, 7:51*am, sage hen <desertny...@cwo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 4, 7:04*pm, Miss Trish <trishca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > Thanks - I might see how I do on the full strength and cut it if I'm
> > too wired to sleep, or have that heart pounding in my ears feeling
> > when I go to bed.
>
> Trish,
> I'm taking .5 mg. estradiol daily to good effect, but if you decide to
> cut to that, definitely do it gradually. *1.25 mg. of premarin is
> approximately equivalent to 1 mg. estradiol (oral). *And like Susan
> said, cut the progesterone too. *I remember reading that estriol
> doesn't increase breast cancer risk, but it is rather expensive.
> Estrone is believed to increase breast cancer risk. *Wasn't the higher
> breast cancer risk in womens' studies from Prempro?
> I ran across some info about progesterone. *Synthetic progesterone
> (Provera or medroxyprogesterone) starts out as natural progesterone
> and is altered by the manufacturer so it can be patented (natural
> products can't be patented). *Provera causes side effects like
> bloating, headaches, and gallbladder disease which you don't get with
> the natural stuff.
> There is an oral natural progesterone, Prometrium--micronized in a
> peanut oil base.
> Many fanciful claims are made for progesterone cream, especially by
> Dr. Lee's book. *Supposedly if you use it at night it will make you
> sleepy, but that didn't pan out for me. *It must work for some women.
> There are also lots of creams on the market that contain very little
> progesterone, so it's wise to get it from a pharmacy. *Wild yam cream
> is said to be worthless.
> Heart palpitations are a known menopause symptom.
> Les

Pardon me guys, it just occurred to me that I made a mistake with the
estradiol/premarin equivalency. 1 mg. estradiol is equivalent to .625
mg. premarin.
Les

On Mar 5, 10:26*am, sage hen <desertny...@cwo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 5, 7:51*am, sage hen <desertny...@cwo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 4, 7:04*pm, Miss Trish <trishca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > Thanks - I might see how I do on the full strength and cut it if I'm
> > > too wired to sleep, or have that heart pounding in my ears feeling
> > > when I go to bed.
>
> > Trish,
> > I'm taking .5 mg. estradiol daily to good effect, but if you decide to
> > cut to that, definitely do it gradually. *1.25 mg. of premarin is
> > approximately equivalent to 1 mg. estradiol (oral). *And like Susan
> > said, cut the progesterone too. *I remember reading that estriol
> > doesn't increase breast cancer risk, but it is rather expensive.
> > Estrone is believed to increase breast cancer risk. *Wasn't the higher
> > breast cancer risk in womens' studies from Prempro?
> > I ran across some info about progesterone. *Synthetic progesterone
> > (Provera or medroxyprogesterone) starts out as natural progesterone
> > and is altered by the manufacturer so it can be patented (natural
> > products can't be patented). *Provera causes side effects like
> > bloating, headaches, and gallbladder disease which you don't get with
> > the natural stuff.
> > There is an oral natural progesterone, Prometrium--micronized in a
> > peanut oil base.
> > Many fanciful claims are made for progesterone cream, especially by
> > Dr. Lee's book. *Supposedly if you use it at night it will make you
> > sleepy, but that didn't pan out for me. *It must work for some women.
> > There are also lots of creams on the market that contain very little
> > progesterone, so it's wise to get it from a pharmacy. *Wild yam cream
> > is said to be worthless.
> > Heart palpitations are a known menopause symptom.
> > Les
>
> Pardon me guys, it just occurred to me that I made a mistake with the
> estradiol/premarin equivalency. *1 mg. estradiol is equivalent to .625
> mg. premarin.
> Les- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

This is good info - and I'm glad you updated on the equivalency. I
cut my estradiol this morning from 1 mg. to 3/4 mg., which should be
in line then with what I was taking with Prempro. I did sleep better
last night with the pharmacy progesterone cream, although I woke up
pretty early. But the best news so far is that the shivers have
calmed down and are almost gone. That HAD to have been the Prempro.

Don't know what all that was about. I did fine on Prempro until I
switched for four days to Activella and then went back to it. After
that, it felt like I was being poisoned.

Pat

On Mar 5, 10:26*am, sage hen <desertny...@cwo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 5, 7:51*am, sage hen <desertny...@cwo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 4, 7:04*pm, Miss Trish <trishca...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > Thanks - I might see how I do on the full strength and cut it if I'm
> > > too wired to sleep, or have that heart pounding in my ears feeling
> > > when I go to bed.
>
> > Trish,
> > I'm taking .5 mg. estradiol daily to good effect, but if you decide to
> > cut to that, definitely do it gradually. *1.25 mg. of premarin is
> > approximately equivalent to 1 mg. estradiol (oral). *And like Susan
> > said, cut the progesterone too. *I remember reading that estriol
> > doesn't increase breast cancer risk, but it is rather expensive.
> > Estrone is believed to increase breast cancer risk. *Wasn't the higher
> > breast cancer risk in womens' studies from Prempro?
> > I ran across some info about progesterone. *Synthetic progesterone
> > (Provera or medroxyprogesterone) starts out as natural progesterone
> > and is altered by the manufacturer so it can be patented (natural
> > products can't be patented). *Provera causes side effects like
> > bloating, headaches, and gallbladder disease which you don't get with
> > the natural stuff.
> > There is an oral natural progesterone, Prometrium--micronized in a
> > peanut oil base.
> > Many fanciful claims are made for progesterone cream, especially by
> > Dr. Lee's book. *Supposedly if you use it at night it will make you
> > sleepy, but that didn't pan out for me. *It must work for some women.
> > There are also lots of creams on the market that contain very little
> > progesterone, so it's wise to get it from a pharmacy. *Wild yam cream
> > is said to be worthless.
> > Heart palpitations are a known menopause symptom.
> > Les
>
> Pardon me guys, it just occurred to me that I made a mistake with the
> estradiol/premarin equivalency. *1 mg. estradiol is equivalent to .625
> mg. premarin.
> Les- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Another equivalency question, though - what % progesterone would match
up to the Prempro fake stuff?

I don't know what % my cream is. It says 50 mg. progesterone cream,
and to apply 2 mg./day.

Pat

<trishcat1018@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cd769c3b-c69c-4eec-8d10-0dc77344cd89@o77g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>This is good info - and I'm glad you updated on the equivalency. I
>cut my estradiol this morning from 1 mg. to 3/4 mg., which should be
i>n line then with what I was taking with Prempro. I did sleep better
>last night with the pharmacy progesterone cream, although I woke up
>pretty early. But the best news so far is that the shivers have
>calmed down and are almost gone. That HAD to have been the Prempro.

>Don't know what all that was about. I did fine on Prempro until I
>switched for four days to Activella and then went back to it. After
t>hat, it felt like I was being poisoned.

Do you know where Prempro comes from? The Premarin in it comes from the
suffering and slaughter of horses.It's justmoney in the pockets of the
pharmaceutical industry, which does not care about the long term effects on
your health or the industry of death they've created.

On Mar 5, 9:38*pm, "deja.blues" <deja.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <trishcat1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cd769c3b-c69c-4eec-8d10-0dc77344cd89@o77g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...>This is good info - and I'm glad you updated on the equivalency. *I
> >cut my estradiol this morning from 1 mg. to 3/4 mg., which should be
>
> i>n line then with what I was taking with Prempro. *I did sleep better
>
> >last night with the pharmacy progesterone cream, although I woke up
> >pretty early. *But the best news so far is that the shivers have
> >calmed down and are almost gone. *That HAD to have been the Prempro.
> >Don't know what all that was about. *I did fine on Prempro until I
> >switched for four days to Activella and then went back to it. *After
>
> t>hat, it felt like I was being poisoned.
>
> Do you know where Prempro comes from? The Premarin in it comes from the
> suffering and slaughter of horses.It's justmoney in the pockets of the
> pharmaceutical industry, which does not care about the long term effects on
> your health or the industry of death they've created.

Glad you brought that up, Deja. It's good to see someone besides
myself and Furpaw remind us of he horror of PREgnant MARe urINe.
Considering the many cheap, relatively harmless, and healthier
alternatives, it's cuckoo to use that stuff. It's also a shame that
we women who really need HRT have to be so afraid, considering that it
was Premarin that was proven to cause higher breast cancer risk in the
WHI study. Does anyone know enough about other kinds of estrogen to
judge their risk? I've been paying attention and haven't heard a
word.

On the progesterone cream, Pat, you'll have a hard time figuring out
just how much hormone you're getting. I have a jar of the non-
pharmaceutical cream here that says to rub on 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon once
or twice a day. Wow, aren't they precise? It says it has 480 mg.
progesterone per ounce and it's a 4 oz. jar. In order to figure out
how much hormone's in a dose, I'd have to measure out all the contents
of the jar and then do the math! You'll probably have to get the
pharmaceutical stuff to get an accurate idea of the dose.

Another thing to remember with topical cream....don't rub it on the
same part of your body every day. Switch from one arm to the other,
or some other part of the body. This was explained to me by a
compounding pharmacist--something about sensitization.

Les

> Considering the many cheap, relatively harmless, and healthier
> alternatives, it's cuckoo to use that stuff. *It's also a shame that
> we women who really need HRT have to be so afraid, considering that it
> was Premarin that was proven to cause higher breast cancer risk in the
> WHI study. *Does anyone know enough about other kinds of estrogen to
> judge their risk? *I've been paying attention and haven't heard a
> word.
>
> Les- Hide quoted text -

A yahoo group I recently subbed to (proponents of Dr. Lee) say of the
three (premarine, estradiol and estriol) estradiol is the worst when
it c omes to breast cancer. They say that estriol is the safest.
This scares me; don't know if research supports this or not.

As far as cost, the progesterone cream (prescription strength like I
have) is very expensive, IMO, and my health carrier doesn't cover it.
I wonder why this is, but then I'm on a Medicare supplemental policy.

Oh, and on day three of the natural progest and estradiol instead of
Prempro --- tada! My shoulder and back acne is clearing up. That's
awesome! I'd tried everything, including prescription antibiotic
lotions. Who knew this was poisoning me like it was?

x-no-archive: yes

trishcat1018@yahoo.com wrote:

> A yahoo group I recently subbed to (proponents of Dr. Lee) say of the
> three (premarine, estradiol and estriol) estradiol is the worst when
> it c omes to breast cancer. They say that estriol is the safest.
> This scares me; don't know if research supports this or not.

It doesn't. At least, none that I could ever find, and I hunted it like
crazy.

>
> As far as cost, the progesterone cream (prescription strength like I
> have) is very expensive, IMO, and my health carrier doesn't cover it.
> I wonder why this is, but then I'm on a Medicare supplemental policy.

Okay, so here's the deal. Someone independently tested about 10
different OTC progesterone creams a few years ago and found that all of
them contained the amount of hormone listed on the label. If you can't
afford the rx stuff, then buy Progest (the only name I can remember from
that study) or another such cream and measure the dosage based upon the
potency. There's no reason you must have rx compounded cream;
micronized progesterone is cheap and readily available OTC in cream form.

>
> Oh, and on day three of the natural progest and estradiol instead of
> Prempro --- tada! My shoulder and back acne is clearing up. That's
> awesome! I'd tried everything, including prescription antibiotic
> lotions. Who knew this was poisoning me like it was?

<*raises hand*> The more I read about endocrinology, the clearer it is
how often and how badly doctors are poisoning us or ignoring serious
problems that they're undertreating.

So glad you're seeing positive signs already. The clearing of the acne
suggests that the oral estrogens were raising your free cortisol by
tying up so much of it with excess cortisol binding globulin.

Susan

> <*raises hand*> *The more I read about endocrinology, the clearer it is
> how often and how badly doctors are poisoning us or ignoring serious
> problems that they're undertreating.
>
> So glad you're seeing positive signs already. *The clearing of the acne
> suggests that the oral estrogens were raising your free cortisol by
> tying up so much of it with excess cortisol binding globulin.
>
> Susan

And so what does that mean, exactly in terms of my every day
functioning? I know little to nothing about endocrinology. I'm still
on the oral, btw - but it's estradiol rather than mare's urine. Hope
to switch to the cream after things settle down.

Pat

x-no-archive: yes

Miss Trish wrote:

> And so what does that mean, exactly in terms of my every day
> functioning? I know little to nothing about endocrinology. I'm still
> on the oral, btw - but it's estradiol rather than mare's urine. Hope
> to switch to the cream after things settle down.

That't interesting; I misunderstood. Lowering cortisol and other
steroids (sex hormones are adrenal steroids) to normal levels is a very
good thing.

Switching to cream from oral will do that moreso. I'm guessing the
estradiol is less potent than Premarin, since Premarin, 9.5 mg daily
(!!!!) is the only thing strong enough to keep my sister out of
endocrine hell. We have some sort of inherited steroid receptor
abnormality it seems, even though we don't look it.

Susan

On Mar 8, 8:32*am, Susan <neverm...@nomail.com> wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Miss Trish wrote:
> > And so what does that mean, exactly in terms of my every day
> > functioning? *I know little to nothing about endocrinology. *I'm still
> > on the oral, btw - but it's estradiol rather than mare's urine. *Hope
> > to switch to the cream after things settle down.
>
> That't interesting; I misunderstood. Lowering cortisol and other
> steroids (sex hormones are adrenal steroids) to normal levels is a very
> good thing.
>
> Switching to cream from oral will do that moreso. *I'm guessing the
> estradiol is less potent than Premarin, since Premarin, 9.5 mg daily
> (!!!!) is the only thing strong enough to keep my sister out of
> endocrine hell. We have some sort of inherited steroid receptor
> abnormality it seems, even though we don't look it.
>
> Susan

Susan, do you know anything about Relora, the herbal formula (magnolia
bark/phellodendron) that purports to lower cortisol levels? So many
ludicrous claims out there.

Re Dr. John Lee's claim that estradiol is more carcinogenic than
premarin, I too would like to know where he got his information.
There actually is some evidence that estriol doesn't cause cancer, I
believe from European studies.

How awful that your sister has to take all that premarin. Is that
transdermal? My delvings indicate that the transdermal dose is only
20 to 50 percent the oral dose, as I'm sure YOU know. I hope her
predicament is very temporary.

Les

x-no-archive: yes

sage hen wrote:

> Susan, do you know anything about Relora, the herbal formula (magnolia
> bark/phellodendron) that purports to lower cortisol levels? So many
> ludicrous claims out there.

No, I don't. I've heard of it, but my problem is cyclical, and I spend
more time with symptoms of adrenal insufficiency than symptoms of
hypercortisolemia. In fact, I had an Addisonian crisis in the year that
I took metformin for presumed insulin resistance for my diabetes (I have
DM, but am very insulin sensitive) because insulin suppresses adrenal
hormone synthesis. Stability is my goal, more than lowering. Since I'm
in the protracted testing stage, altering my levels is a really bad idea.

Sometimes I do it accidentally; AmLactin moisturizer has lactic acid,
and it made me exhausted and suppressed for weeks til I realized it.
Same with moisturizers or cosmetics with salicylates.

>
> Re Dr. John Lee's claim that estradiol is more carcinogenic than
> premarin, I too would like to know where he got his information.
> There actually is some evidence that estriol doesn't cause cancer, I
> believe from European studies.

I have no idea about Lee's claims or his evidence. I just know that my
endo, a full time researcher, rx's an estradiol based gel.

>
> How awful that your sister has to take all that premarin. Is that
> transdermal? My delvings indicate that the transdermal dose is only
> 20 to 50 percent the oral dose, as I'm sure YOU know. I hope her
> predicament is very temporary.

No, she apparently needs it to rais her cortisol binding globulin or
becomes severely ill. Transdermal doesn't work for her symptoms at all.
She'd love to come off it, but she literally cannot function mentally or
physically without it. She's been in this predicament for exactly 20
years so far.

Susan