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  #1  
Old 06-18-2007, 08:31 PM
FurPaw
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Default Vitamin D and Mood

Starting a new thread here - this popped out for me because of
the struggle many of us have with mood, particularly depression,
during perimenopause:

Ted Hutchinson wrote, regarding Vitamin D and Mood:
(in the thread, "Tense muscles, anyone?"
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2qtqvx )

> Given 4000iu/d people have optimal feelings of wellbeing
>

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...medid=15260882

I found this really interesting, particularly because of the
possible link between Seasonal Affective Disorder, phototherapy,
and vitamin D: is it possible that it's the vitamin D that's
synthesized during light exposure and not the light itself?

One study seemed to point to vitamin D, but it was small and short.
"Vitamin D vs broad spectrum phototherapy in the treatment of
seasonal affective disorder"
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2gjcwh

However, the following study found no affect of vitamin D
supplementation, but it used a much lower dose of vitamin D than
the one above; and the patients apparently had not been diagnosed
with SAD.
"Can vitamin D supplementation prevent winter-time blues? A
randomised trial among older women"
http://preview.tinyurl.com/32zekp

Looks like an interesting line of inquiry to pursue.

FurPaw

--
The Bush legacy - no child left a dime.

To reply, unleash the dog.
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  #2  
Old 06-18-2007, 08:31 PM
tedhutchinson
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

When looking at the York SAD/VITAMIN D study you have to bear in mind
they were trying to replicate research that was first conducted in
Newcastle Australia.

There is a huge, massive, difference between the vitamin d status of
otherwise healthy men in Australia Newcastle lat 33 and Elderly
Females York lat 53.
The kind of amount of Vitamin d needed to raise the satus of otherwise
healthy young men living at lat 32 will be totally inappropriate and
insufficient at lat 53 some 1000mls from the Equator and in the
Northern rather than Southern hemisphere where because of lower
pollution and the way the earth moves round the sun the sun in the
Southern Hemisphere is 10% stronger and when applying that amount to
elderly women living in York.

We have to start from the premise that MOST of the UK Population is
Vitamin D insufficient.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/3/860

We know that every day the body uses about 4000iu.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/77/1/204

We know that at latitude 41N in Omaha men who work outdoors each and
every day on average make approximately 2800iu/daily and remain
insufficient in Winter.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...e2=tf_ipsecsha

To raise Vitamin d status by 9-10nmol/L requires 400iu
So to raise Vit d status from 75nmol/L to 125nmol/L requires 5x400iu =
2000iu

In order to raise a Vitamin D status of 0 nmol/L to the minimum at
which all systems operate unrestricted by Vit d shortages.requires
4000iu/daily
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...medid=17218096

Not surprisingly 4000iu daily optimises feelings of well being.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...medid=15260882

Before anyone comments that this amount may be toxic may I point out
that NO OBSERVABLE ADVERSE EVENTS OCCUR under 10,000iu/daily
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/85/1/6
You can listen to Vieth discussing his research at
http://app2.capitalreach.com/esp1204...=6954&espbr=16
use the arrows beside the slide previews to fast forward to slide 61
but you may find the Bess Dawson-Hughes presentation interesting
particularly if you have an elderly relative. Pay attention to the
level of Vit d status that maximises speed of walking 8mts and rise
from Chair. Just happens to be 100nmol/L. So for PEAK Physical
Athletic performance you must obtain optimal vit d status.


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  #3  
Old 06-18-2007, 11:54 PM
Chakolate
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

FurPaw <furrealpawdog@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ts-dnTcu5YU7POvbnZ2dnUVZ_sKunZ2d@comcast.com:

> > Given 4000iu/d people have optimal feelings of wellbeing
> >

> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...pubmed&pubmedi
> d=15260882
>
> I found this really interesting, particularly because of the
> possible link between Seasonal Affective Disorder, phototherapy,
> and vitamin D: is it possible that it's the vitamin D that's
> synthesized during light exposure and not the light itself?
>
> One study seemed to point to vitamin D, but it was small and short.
> "Vitamin D vs broad spectrum phototherapy in the treatment of
> seasonal affective disorder"
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/2gjcwh
>
> However, the following study found no affect of vitamin D
> supplementation, but it used a much lower dose of vitamin D than
> the one above; and the patients apparently had not been diagnosed
> with SAD.
> "Can vitamin D supplementation prevent winter-time blues? A
> randomised trial among older women"
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/32zekp
>
> Looks like an interesting line of inquiry to pursue.
>


It does look interesting.

However, the Linus Pauling Institute's page on vitamin D gives an upper
intake limit as 2000 IU/50 mcg per day.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...mins/vitaminD/

I've always found their content to be well-researched and carefully and
thoughtfully presented.

One thing I noticed on that page is that hypervitaminosis D can cause
high serum calcium levels, which means it pulls the calcium out of your
bones and deposits it in your heart and other organs. In healthy adults
this doesn't happen at 10,000 IU per day or less, but a number of
conditions lower that safe limit significantly.

I've wondered if one reason I feel better after sitting in the sun in the
morning is melatonin. The diminution of the light each day is the signal
for the body to turn some serotonin into melatonin, and I wonder if the
sunlight in the morning turns it back into serotonin. I have no idea
whether this is true - it may be something nobody knows yet. Still, I've
found that I do feel better after ten minutes with the sun on my face.

Chak

--
Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget
us.
--Henrik Tikkanen



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  #4  
Old 06-19-2007, 08:43 AM
Susan
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

x-no-archive: yes

Chakolate wrote:

> However, the Linus Pauling Institute's page on vitamin D gives an upper
> intake limit as 2000 IU/50 mcg per day.
>
> http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...mins/vitaminD/
>
> I've always found their content to be well-researched and carefully and
> thoughtfully presented.
>
> One thing I noticed on that page is that hypervitaminosis D can cause
> high serum calcium levels, which means it pulls the calcium out of your
> bones and deposits it in your heart and other organs. In healthy adults
> this doesn't happen at 10,000 IU per day or less, but a number of
> conditions lower that safe limit significantly.
>
> I've wondered if one reason I feel better after sitting in the sun in the
> morning is melatonin. The diminution of the light each day is the signal
> for the body to turn some serotonin into melatonin, and I wonder if the
> sunlight in the morning turns it back into serotonin. I have no idea
> whether this is true - it may be something nobody knows yet. Still, I've
> found that I do feel better after ten minutes with the sun on my face.


But the vitamin D council says those upper limits are part of the problem:

http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/

IIRC, they say the safe upper limit for daily use is probably closer to
10,000.

I take about 5000 iu daily.

Susan
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  #5  
Old 06-19-2007, 08:43 AM
Chakolate
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

Susan <nevermind@nomail.com> wrote in
news:5doo45F35sa21U1@mid.individual.net:

> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Chakolate wrote:
>
>> However, the Linus Pauling Institute's page on vitamin D gives an
>> upper intake limit as 2000 IU/50 mcg per day.
>>
>> http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...mins/vitaminD/
>>
>> I've always found their content to be well-researched and carefully
>> and thoughtfully presented.
>>
>> One thing I noticed on that page is that hypervitaminosis D can cause
>> high serum calcium levels, which means it pulls the calcium out of
>> your bones and deposits it in your heart and other organs. In
>> healthy adults this doesn't happen at 10,000 IU per day or less, but
>> a number of conditions lower that safe limit significantly.
>>
>> I've wondered if one reason I feel better after sitting in the sun in
>> the morning is melatonin. The diminution of the light each day is
>> the signal for the body to turn some serotonin into melatonin, and I
>> wonder if the sunlight in the morning turns it back into serotonin.
>> I have no idea whether this is true - it may be something nobody
>> knows yet. Still, I've found that I do feel better after ten minutes
>> with the sun on my face.

>
> But the vitamin D council says those upper limits are part of the
> problem:
>
> http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/
>
> IIRC, they say the safe upper limit for daily use is probably closer
> to 10,000.
>
> I take about 5000 iu daily.


That's what I quoted, 10,000 is the upper safe limit for healthy adults.
According to the LPI, though, that limit comes down quickly for people
with certain health problems, among them primary hyperparathyroidism,
sarcoidosis, tuberculosis, and lymphoma.

They always cite their sources, so if you go to the URL I posted, you can
click through to the sources.

Chak



--
Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget
us.
--Henrik Tikkanen



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  #6  
Old 06-19-2007, 07:57 PM
Susan
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

x-no-archive: yes

Chakolate wrote:

> That's what I quoted, 10,000 is the upper safe limit for healthy adults.
> According to the LPI, though, that limit comes down quickly for people
> with certain health problems, among them primary hyperparathyroidism,
> sarcoidosis, tuberculosis, and lymphoma.
>
> They always cite their sources, so if you go to the URL I posted, you can
> click through to the sources.
>



Doh.

Susan
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  #7  
Old 06-19-2007, 07:57 PM
tedhutchinson
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

You can listen to Vieth discussing his research at
http://app2.capitalreach.com/esp1204...20343&e=6950&&
Scroll down to Session 4: Vitamin D and Population Health You can use
the arrows beside the preview slides to fast forward to slide 61 and
the session by Reinhold Vieth, Ph.D.
In case you miss the details of the first example of toxicity
discussed it was 1,700,000iu/d d3 for 7 months produced a 1555nmol/L
Not to be advised but not at that point deadly. This person was being
poisoned with 425 times daily the amount the body of D3 actually needs
or a daily dose 8500 times the amount Linus Pauling says the body
needs daily. But despite all that amount His blood levels were only
12 times higher than optimal status.

If the 200iu daily amount recommended by Linus Pauling and other
medical advice websites is correct then surely everyone taking the RDA
will be sufficient.
90% of the UK population are insufficient in Winter. There is no way
that only 10% of the population take multivits daily.

If you test the vitamin D status of mothers you find generally
although they have been taking prenatal vitamins (400iu/d) they are
vitamin d insufficient.

You do not get a situation where all the Worlds Leading Experts are
pleading to get the levels raised http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/85/3/649
The urgent need to recommend an intake of vitamin D that is effective
if the current RDA/TUL levels were regarded as correct.

We need everyone to have levels at which all the systems in their
body's that require the Vitamin D3 metabolite are able to access it
without the restriction caused by lack of D3.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...medid=17218096
Circulating Vitamin D3 and 25-hydroxyvitamin D in Humans: An Important
Tool to Define Adequate Nutritional Vitamin D Status
As it takes 400iu to raise nmol/L by between 8-12 points (usually
9nmol/L is the accepted norm) to raise to 100nmol/L requires around
4000iu.

All the recent research is showing that amounts much higher than
10,000iu daily can be safely taken without observable adverse events.
However as we only need to achieve optimal status (125nmol/L for peak
physical/athletic perfomance) and this can be easily achieved given
time with less than 10,000iu there appears to be no good reason for
long term high level dosing.





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  #8  
Old 06-19-2007, 07:57 PM
whirrledpeas
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

On Jun 18, 8:15 am, FurPaw <furrealpaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Starting a new thread here - this popped out for me because of
> the struggle many of us have with mood, particularly depression,
> during perimenopause:
>
> Ted Hutchinson wrote, regarding Vitamin D and Mood:
> (in the thread, "Tense muscles, anyone?"http://preview.tinyurl.com/2qtqvx)
>
> > Given 4000iu/d people have optimal feelings of wellbeing
> >http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...l=pubmed&pubme...

>
> I found this really interesting, particularly because of the
> possible link between Seasonal Affective Disorder, phototherapy,
> and vitamin D: is it possible that it's the vitamin D that's
> synthesized during light exposure and not the light itself?
>
> One study seemed to point to vitamin D, but it was small and short.
> "Vitamin D vs broad spectrum phototherapy in the treatment of
> seasonal affective disorder"http://preview.tinyurl.com/2gjcwh
>
> However, the following study found no affect of vitamin D
> supplementation, but it used a much lower dose of vitamin D than
> the one above; and the patients apparently had not been diagnosed
> with SAD.
> "Can vitamin D supplementation prevent winter-time blues? A
> randomised trial among older women"http://preview.tinyurl.com/32zekp
>
> Looks like an interesting line of inquiry to pursue.
>
> FurPaw
>
> --
> The Bush legacy - no child left a dime.
>


Part of me is hoping that this new information about Vitamin D will
help some of us struggling with SAD and various other issues that D
might help.

The other part of me is wondering if this is just another random study
on a vitamin unrealistically being viewed as a panacea to ailments
that we'd love to treat without meds. Remember the hype with oat
bran? About 30 years ago, wheat germ was the buzz word. Soy....great
studies about it, then studies that it caused breast cancer. What
about tryptophan to help with sleep? That was taken off the market.
You know what I mean :-)

Do we know how long we have to take the extra D for it to make a
difference? Should we take it with our calcium or on an empty
stomach? Should we take as much D on the days that we can go out in
the sun and get it? Should those of us living in the darker states
take more D? How do actually know how much to take? Should my dd
take as much as me if we have different skin types? OY. Also
remember that with sunblock, we won't get the D. If we're already tan
do we get the D? Too many questions, I know. I never stop thinking :-
(

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  #9  
Old 06-19-2007, 10:05 PM
tedhutchinson
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

On 19 Jun, 18:37, whirrledpeas <judg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Part of me is hoping that this new information aboutVitaminDwill
> help some of us struggling with SAD and various other issues thatD
> might help.


Obtaining optimal vitamin D status will certainly help every reader.
Even if it just saves them from getting 70% fewer colds it is worth
it. The fact it also has been proved to reduce cancer incidence by 77%
is another bonus. The only way to see if your depression responds to a
safe and effective amount of Vitamin d3 is to give it a go. You can be
absolutely certain it is safe. No Observable adverse events have been
recorded under 10,000iu and no one needs to supplement at that level
anyway.

> The other part of me is wondering if this is just another random study


A Google Scholar search throws up http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl...=&q=vitamin+d+
966,000 acedmic references to Vitamin D this isn't just the odd
random article. I follow the Vitamin d new research daily and it is
usually more than 5 new research papers every single day to study.

> on avitaminunrealistically being viewed as a panacea to ailments


If you just listen to http://app2.capitalreach.com/esp1204...20343&e=6950&&
Mark R. Haussler, Ph.D.
session. Don't try to understand it, just listen and look at the
diagrams and even if you don't follow or understand everything he is
talking about I'm sure you will have a better idea as to why Vitamin D
is regarded as Pleiotropic which means it has many different actions
simultaneously..

> that we'dlove to treat without meds. Remember the hype with oat
> bran? About 30 years ago, wheat germ was the buzz word. Soy....great
> studies about it, then studies that it caused breast cancer. What
> about tryptophan to help with sleep? That was taken off the market.
> You know what I mean :-)


Perhaps if you started with http://tinyurl.com/f93vl
Prospects for Vitamin D NutritionVery interesting presentation
detailing the human species' need for vitamin D.
Presented by vitamin D expert Dr. Reinhold Vieth.
It's only an hour and it is more aimed at the layperson. But it sets
out the way we evolved to spend time in the sun and explains some of
the reasons why we need it so much. It is now, particularly as I've
just explained how much new research has been published, somewhat out
of date and I think Vieth would be a little more assertive than he was
when this presentation occured.

> Do we know how long we have to take the extra D for it to make a
> difference? Depends on your skin colour, how much Vit d you've been taking recently, depends on how much time you have spend with a lot of skin exposed to the sun,and at what latitude you live. If you are near the threshold then your response will be much quicker than if you are well below optimal status. The sooner you start taking an effective amount of supplement the sooner you will begin to feel better. Taking 4000iu daily is absolutely safe it will in time raise your status to optimal.


Should we take it with our calcium or on an empty
> stomach?

Vitamin D is fat/oil soluble so if you can incorporate it into cod
liver oil, flax oil or something like that you stand a better chance
of it being absorbed well. I've not had any trouble taking it on an
empty stomach or with food. You could incorporate it (by sliding the
capsule apart and dropping the contents into the fat/oil you are
cooking with) into your baking, It will survive cooking so you could
easily make Cookies/biscuits with high Vitamin D3 content.

Should we take as muchDon the days that we can go out in
> the sun and get it?

I think there are more benefits from getting it from sunlight than
from supplements. Your body was designed to absorb it this way so I
think if you can get it for free by laying near naked in the sun at
midday (when UVB<>UVA ratio optimal) for 10-20 minutes (without
allowing your skin to go red and certainly NEVER EVER BURN) regularly,
then this is certainly more effective for skin cancer prevention.
http://www.tantoday.com/forums/scien...tion-skin.html


Should those of us living in the darker states
> take moreD?

Yes

How do actually know how much to take?
Without a blood test it's impossible to know. The simplest answer is
to say that NO OBSERVABLE ADVERSE EVENTS have been reported under
10,000iu/daily so providing you never take more than that you are
unlikely to suffer adverse consequences, but you will be even less
likely to suffer adverse consequences if you stick to 4000iu as a
daily maximum intake. Bruce Hollis, whose been researching Vitamin D
for 30 yrs and who lives works in Maryland says " No one should have a
circulating 25(OH) D level-this is the metabolite that defines
nutritional vitamin D status-less than 80 nmol. I try to keep my own
level at 125 nmol minimum and consume between 2,000-8,000 IU/day
depending on the season" So anything within that range is fine.

Should my dd
> take as much as me if we have different skin types?

You don't say how old DD is? Young children shouldn't have as much as
older children and they somewhat less than adults. I
o
> remember that with sunblock, we won't get theD.

That's true but lots of people think that providing they are outside
they will get Vit d . All Sunscreen, sunblock sun protection factor
cosmetics will stop Vitamin d production. They work by blocking UVB
without UVB there is no vitamin D3.

If we're already tan
> do we get theD?


You do but not as much as quickly. So a brown skin will take 5 times
as long as a white skin to make the same Vitamin D3 A BLACK skin will
take TEN times as long to make the same amount so this explains why
Black skinned individuals have higher cancer diabetes incidence and
lower Vitamin d status particularly when living above latitude 45.




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  #10  
Old 06-20-2007, 02:16 AM
Emma Anne
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

whirrledpeas <judgedl@gmail.com> wrote:

> Part of me is hoping that this new information about Vitamin D will
> help some of us struggling with SAD and various other issues that D
> might help.
>
> The other part of me is wondering if this is just another random study
> on a vitamin unrealistically being viewed as a panacea to ailments
> that we'd love to treat without meds.


I know *exactly* what you mean. Echinacea, for example. Or mega doses
of vitamin C.
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  #11  
Old 06-20-2007, 02:16 AM
Susan
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

x-no-archive: yes

tedhutchinson wrote:

> Vitamin D is fat/oil soluble so if you can incorporate it into cod
> liver oil, flax oil or something like that you stand a better chance
> of it being absorbed well. I've not had any trouble taking it on an
> empty stomach or with food. You could incorporate it (by sliding the
> capsule apart and dropping the contents into the fat/oil you are
> cooking with) into your baking, It will survive cooking so you could
> easily make Cookies/biscuits with high Vitamin D3 content.


Huh????

I just take it after a meal that has some fat in it.

Susan
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  #12  
Old 06-20-2007, 02:16 AM
Susan
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

x-no-archive: yes

Emma Anne wrote:

> I know *exactly* what you mean. Echinacea, for example. Or mega doses
> of vitamin C.


A lot of good science says no. It's more of a correction of the
insufficiency we ended up with when we all stopped spending time out in
the sun with unprotected skin, and thinking we'd been getting enough due
to faulty RDAs.

Susan
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  #13  
Old 06-20-2007, 02:16 AM
ratatosk
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:43:20 -0400, Susan <nevermind@nomail.com>
wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>tedhutchinson wrote:
>
>> Vitamin D is fat/oil soluble so if you can incorporate it into cod
>> liver oil, flax oil or something like that you stand a better chance
>> of it being absorbed well. I've not had any trouble taking it on an
>> empty stomach or with food. You could incorporate it (by sliding the
>> capsule apart and dropping the contents into the fat/oil you are
>> cooking with) into your baking, It will survive cooking so you could
>> easily make Cookies/biscuits with high Vitamin D3 content.

>
>Huh????
>
>I just take it after a meal that has some fat in it.
>

The body makes it from cholesterol and sunlight so i don't see the
need for fat for vit d absorbtion ( but i can be wrong).

R

Ratatosk,Jola

--

If you need to e-mail me, replace "don'tbother" with "zedicus"
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  #14  
Old 06-20-2007, 02:16 AM
Susan
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

x-no-archive: yes

ratatosk wrote:

> The body makes it from cholesterol and sunlight so i don't see the
> need for fat for vit d absorbtion ( but i can be wrong).
>


Good point.

Susan
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  #15  
Old 06-20-2007, 06:16 AM
Chakolate
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

ratatosk <ratatosk@don'tbother.tweakdsl.nl> wrote in
news:26qg739klp747rj8rqsgid0p42usvdojs8@4ax.com:

> The body makes it from cholesterol and sunlight so i don't see the
> need for fat for vit d absorbtion ( but i can be wrong).
>


I don't think it follows that dietary D will be absorbed in the absence
of dietary fat. It can only be absorbed through the gut if it's
dissolved in fat. Just a guess, though.

Chak

--
Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget
us.
--Henrik Tikkanen



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  #16  
Old 07-07-2007, 08:49 PM
tedhutchinson
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

On 19 Jun, 22:22, emma_a...@mac.com (Emma Anne) wrote:

> I know *exactly* what you mean. Echinacea, for example. Or mega doses
> ofvitaminC.


There is however considerably more science resarch published on
Vitamin d that for Echinacea.
You don't find any studies suggesting that we are all suffering from
Echinacea deficiency or insufficiency status but you can find many
studies showing that our Vitamin d3 status should be improved.

Similarly nobody is actually promoting Echinacea avoidance but the
dangerously misguided skin cancer lobby have persuaded people that
it's safer to stay out of the sun despite the fact that for each
excessive sunburn induced skin cancer death there are 30 or more
cancer deaths that would have been avoided if those people had
adequate Vitamin D status.

Nobody is suggesting mega doses of Vitamin d3 are needed, simply the
NATURAL AMOUNT of vitamin D your body uses daily
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/77/1/204 should be available and
when you achieve that all the many Vitamin D related systems in your
body work better when their activities are not restricted by lack of
the necessary vitamin D3.

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  #17  
Old 07-07-2007, 08:49 PM
tedhutchinson
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Default Re: Vitamin D and Mood

On 20 Jun, 04:13, Chakolate <chakolateDeathToSpamm...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ratatosk <ratatosk@don'tbother.tweakdsl.nl> wrote innews:26qg739klp747rj8rqsgid0p42usvdojs8@4ax.com:
>
> > The body makes it from cholesterol and sunlight so i don't see the
> > need for fat for vitdabsorbtion ( but i can be wrong).

>
> I don't think it follows that dietaryDwill be absorbed in the absence
> of dietary fat. It can only be absorbed through the gut if it's
> dissolved in fat. Just a guess, though.
>
> Chak
>
> --
> Because we don't think about future generations, they will never forget
> us.
> --Henrik Tikkanen


Dr Davis Heart Scan Blog has a lot of information on Vitamin D3 and he
is very keen that people do take Vitamin d in an oil based form with
food. I'm not as convinced that it is only effective in this form as
most of the Vitamin D3 experts do not insist that oil based vitamin d3
capsules are used. However if you are a poor absorber of Vitamin D3 or
poor at making it in your skin then it's better to be safe than
sorry.

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/se...max-results=50

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