Add/Subtract or Leave Weight the Same

I was designing a new workout and I notice there are variations on
changing weights between sets. Some people leave it the same for all
sets. Some add weight as they go along, and others subtract it. Is
this just a matter of preference or are any of these better than
others? And should the weight change every set or only on some?

My personal preference is to take weight off after the 2nd or 3rd set.
That keeps me doing the same reps as I go along. If I use the same
weight I am either not working very hard on the first set or not
getting enough reps on the last one. I never tried adding weights but
it seems people who compete use this method. I assume it makes sure
they get in one good lift. But maybe there are other benefits.

Note to David Cohen: You advice is not needed. These are weights
and not the baby rattles you are used to. If I ever need advice on
how to talcum powder a baby's ass I will let you know.

Shute wrote:
> I was designing a new workout and I notice there are variations on
> changing weights between sets. Some people leave it the same for all
> sets. Some add weight as they go along, and others subtract it. Is
> this just a matter of preference or are any of these better than
> others? And should the weight change every set or only on some?
>
> gay love note involving baby bottoms (you sick freak) to Cohen snipped.

Answer: it depends.

Note to Cohen: you're welcome.
..

"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3q6dk2h6et2hk04adebm48d0vvc25nef7u@4ax.com...
>I was designing a new workout and I notice there are variations on
> changing weights between sets. Some people leave it the same for all
> sets. Some add weight as they go along, and others subtract it. Is
> this just a matter of preference or are any of these better than
> others? And should the weight change every set or only on some?
>
> My personal preference is to take weight off after the 2nd or 3rd set.
> That keeps me doing the same reps as I go along. If I use the same
> weight I am either not working very hard on the first set or not
> getting enough reps on the last one. I never tried adding weights but
> it seems people who compete use this method. I assume it makes sure
> they get in one good lift. But maybe there are other benefits.

You're talking about "pyramids." Google it. Here are some of the links
you'll find:

Pyramids: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sclark45.htm
Reverse pyramids: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/randy2.htm
Both: http://exercise.about.com/cs/weightl...eight_ruts.htm

ep

On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 01:35:00 GMT, "Edna Pearl"
<edna_pearl@BiteMeSpammeryahoo.com> wrote:

>You're talking about "pyramids." Google it. Here are some of the links
>you'll find:
>
>Pyramids: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sclark45.htm
>Reverse pyramids: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/randy2.htm
>Both: http://exercise.about.com/cs/weightl...eight_ruts.htm
>
>ep

Thanks Edna. I didn't realize there was a word for it. Looks like I
can use them however I want. I like them because they encourage me to
push myself harder.

On 30 Oct 2006 17:00:16 -0800, "EatMe" <trollsblow@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>Shute wrote:
>> I was designing a new workout and I notice there are variations on
>> changing weights between sets. Some people leave it the same for all
>> sets. Some add weight as they go along, and others subtract it. Is
>> this just a matter of preference or are any of these better than
>> others? And should the weight change every set or only on some?
>>
>> gay love note involving baby bottoms (you sick freak) to Cohen snipped.
>
>Answer: it depends.
>
>Note to Cohen: you're welcome.

I seemed to have offended someone calling themselves EatMe. He seems
to think David would look good in a pair of Depends.

"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> schreef:

>I was designing a new workout and I notice there are variations on
> changing weights between sets. Some people leave it the same for all
> sets. Some add weight as they go along, and others subtract it. Is
> this just a matter of preference or are any of these better than
> others? And should the weight change every set or only on some?

No.

It depends on what you want, Shute.
The typical pyramids were designed to work your way up to a heavy weight for
about 4-5 reps. Typical pyramids are something like this;

15,12, 10, 8, 6, 4-6 reps.

The previous sets serve as preparation and warmup. You have about 2
"real"sets.
You start with 70% of 5RM and add 5% each following set.

Problem with this method is, that in the 4th set were the weight becomes
heavy, you have allready done 37 reps.

You will notice that that in those last 3 sets, you cant use as much as
usual.

My advice is this;
Do 6 sets with a pyramid the first 3, ALL sets of 8. Or whatever amount of
reps you want to do.

Do 3 sets with 70, 80, 90% of 8RM, followed by 3 sets of 100%. Take MORE
rest after each succeeding set.

I dont suggests reverse pyramids. The intensity goes down. Its good for
pump, though....
Just make sure that after each succeeding set, you take a tiny bit more
rest.

Yesterday i ended my workout with cable rows. I think i did 7 sets or
something (most of the time i dont count...)
And my last sets were done with about 5 minutes in between. But the weight
was 100%.

> My personal preference is to take weight off after the 2nd or 3rd set.

Try longer intervals instead.

> That keeps me doing the same reps as I go along. If I use the same
> weight I am either not working very hard on the first set or not
> getting enough reps on the last one.

Because the intervals were too short.

----
Pete

Dnia 2006-10-31 Shute napisa³(a):
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 01:35:00 GMT, "Edna Pearl"
><edna_pearl@BiteMeSpammeryahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>You're talking about "pyramids." Google it. Here are some of the links
>>you'll find:
>>
>>Pyramids: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sclark45.htm
>>Reverse pyramids: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/randy2.htm
>>Both: http://exercise.about.com/cs/weightl...eight_ruts.htm
>>
>
> Thanks Edna. I didn't realize there was a word for it. Looks like I
> can use them however I want. I like them because they encourage me to
> push myself harder.

If you have a problem with motivation, which I doubt, then it's a good
thing. If you have a problem with too much of motivation, which I
suspect, then it's a bad thing to push harder.

The trick is to push just as hard as is optimal, not the hardest you
can.

How hard is right? It depends. How much you eat, how much you sleep,
does your wife love you, does your daughter take drugs and so on.

All this things count big time. They shift hormonal reactions of your
body.

IMO one should learn to listen to his body as early as possible. Once
you got it, rep or set schemes matter little. You lift until the
desired outcome is reached and then go home.

You should learn to know when this desired outcome is reached.

Then, you do not have to count reps or sets. I do not. Pete does not.
Dave Draper does not. Many great others (see Pete, I put you among
greats! ;-) also aren't crazy about reps or sets.

Many great guys doesn't even know beforehand what kind of exercises
they will do during their next workout. It all depends how they *feel*
once they start actually doing whatever they planned for the day.

If it feels like shit to squat heavy that day, than it probably is
shit. Maybe your boss yelled at you and you are stressed and can't
sleep. What good additional stress will do for you? Quite possibly
nothing good. Taking a day of rest or doing some easy bullshit will be
much better choice and it will help you break a PR next time you enter
the gym.

Just to summarize: Having a plan is good; even bad plan is better than
no plan. Being reactive to changing conditions is
best; best plan mindlessly executed is worse than
stupid plan executed smartly.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa wrote:

[...]

> Then, you do not have to count reps or sets. I do not. Pete does
> not. Dave Draper does not.

How do you know if you are making progress then?

> Many great others (see Pete, I put you
> among greats! ;-) also aren't crazy about reps or sets.
>
> Many great guys doesn't even know beforehand what kind of exercises
> they will do during their next workout. It all depends how they
> *feel* once they start actually doing whatever they planned for the
> day.

If you fail to plan, you plan to fail!

>
> If it feels like shit to squat heavy that day, than it probably is
> shit. Maybe your boss yelled at you and you are stressed and can't
> sleep. What good additional stress will do for you? Quite possibly
> nothing good. Taking a day of rest or doing some easy bullshit will
> be much better choice and it will help you break a PR next time you
> enter the gym.
>
> Just to summarize: Having a plan is good; even bad plan is better
> than no plan. Being reactive to changing conditions is
> best; best plan mindlessly executed is worse than
> stupid plan executed smartly.



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote
>
> Note to David Cohen: You advice is not needed. These are weights
> and not the baby rattles you are used to. If I ever need advice on
> how to talcum powder a baby's ass I will let you know.

Not that I would want to interfere with your masturbatory fantasies about
me, but creepy AND moron is a bad combination.

David

Dnia 2006-10-31 Bully napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Then, you do not have to count reps or sets. I do not. Pete does
>> not. Dave Draper does not.
>
> How do you know if you are making progress then?

You periodically test yourself.

How do you know if you are *not* making progress if performance goes
down due to fatigue?

>> Many great others (see Pete, I put you
>> among greats! ;-) also aren't crazy about reps or sets.
>>
>> Many great guys doesn't even know beforehand what kind of exercises
>> they will do during their next workout. It all depends how they
>> *feel* once they start actually doing whatever they planned for the
>> day.
>
> If you fail to plan, you plan to fail!

I planned snatches for today, but my left brachialis was acting up, so
I ditched one-armed snatches in favor of the exercises I could do.

What's wrong with that?

>> If it feels like shit to squat heavy that day, than it probably is
>> shit. Maybe your boss yelled at you and you are stressed and can't
>> sleep. What good additional stress will do for you? Quite possibly
>> nothing good. Taking a day of rest or doing some easy bullshit will
>> be much better choice and it will help you break a PR next time you
>> enter the gym.
>>
>> Just to summarize: Having a plan is good; even bad plan is better
>> than no plan. Being reactive to changing conditions is
>> best; best plan mindlessly executed is worse than
>> stupid plan executed smartly.

Actually, I wrote about it in the part you failed to remove.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Shute wrote:
> I was designing a new workout and I notice there are variations on
> changing weights between sets. Some people leave it the same for all
> sets. Some add weight as they go along, and others subtract it. Is
> this just a matter of preference or are any of these better than
> others? And should the weight change every set or only on some?
>
> My personal preference is to take weight off after the 2nd or 3rd set.
> That keeps me doing the same reps as I go along. If I use the same
> weight I am either not working very hard on the first set or not
> getting enough reps on the last one. I never tried adding weights but
> it seems people who compete use this method. I assume it makes sure
> they get in one good lift. But maybe there are other benefits.
>
> Note to David Cohen: You advice is not needed. These are weights
> and not the baby rattles you are used to. If I ever need advice on
> how to talcum powder a baby's ass I will let you know.

I don't it matters as long as you're consistent within a given cycle.
The way to make gains is to force your body to adapt to stimuli. If
the stimulus is too consistent over a long period of time, you'll cease
to make much of a gain. Changing up the way you load up the exercises
for a given cycle is an excellent way to throw a curveball at your body
while still keeping the same exercises in a new cycle. For general
fitness, I alway recommend going with something you're in the mood for
and building a short cycle around that. That will keep your interest
up so you're more likely to maintain the program. Do switch things up
every 4-6 weeks though, with a backoff week thrown in there between
cycles..

John
http://www.kettlebellinfo.com

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Dnia 2006-10-31 Bully napisa³(a):
>> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Then, you do not have to count reps or sets. I do not. Pete does
>>> not. Dave Draper does not.
>>
>> How do you know if you are making progress then?
>
> You periodically test yourself.
>
> How do you know if you are *not* making progress if performance goes
> down due to fatigue?

Because having trained for a number of years, I generally know why my
performance is suffering be it physical fatigue or any other known factor.

>
>>> Many great others (see Pete, I put you
>>> among greats! ;-) also aren't crazy about reps or sets.
>>>
>>> Many great guys doesn't even know beforehand what kind of exercises
>>> they will do during their next workout. It all depends how they
>>> *feel* once they start actually doing whatever they planned for the
>>> day.
>>
>> If you fail to plan, you plan to fail!
>
> I planned snatches for today, but my left brachialis was acting up, so
> I ditched one-armed snatches in favor of the exercises I could do.
>
> What's wrong with that?

Sounds like you had a good plan B !!

>
>>> If it feels like shit to squat heavy that day, than it probably is
>>> shit. Maybe your boss yelled at you and you are stressed and can't
>>> sleep. What good additional stress will do for you? Quite possibly
>>> nothing good. Taking a day of rest or doing some easy bullshit will
>>> be much better choice and it will help you break a PR next time you
>>> enter the gym.
>>>
>>> Just to summarize: Having a plan is good; even bad plan is better
>>> than no plan. Being reactive to changing conditions is
>>> best; best plan mindlessly executed is worse than
>>> stupid plan executed smartly.
>
> Actually, I wrote about it in the part you failed to remove.

Yes, missed that - sorry. Due to the rendering of the text in your posts I
find them awkward to read!!!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Dnia 2006-10-31 Bully napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>> Dnia 2006-10-31 Bully napisa³(a):
>>> Andrzej Rosa wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Then, you do not have to count reps or sets. I do not. Pete does
>>>> not. Dave Draper does not.
>>>
>>> How do you know if you are making progress then?
>>
>> You periodically test yourself.
>>
>> How do you know if you are *not* making progress if performance goes
>> down due to fatigue?
>
> Because having trained for a number of years, I generally know why my
> performance is suffering be it physical fatigue or any other known factor.

That's my point. External or even strictly training related factors
can have a very big impact on performance, so one should learn the
importance of "gut feeling".

>>> If you fail to plan, you plan to fail!
>>
>> I planned snatches for today, but my left brachialis was acting up, so
>> I ditched one-armed snatches in favor of the exercises I could do.
>>
>> What's wrong with that?
>
> Sounds like you had a good plan B !!

Actually I made it up on the spot. I didn't know beforehand that my
left brachialis will act up. I didn't know beforehand, that today I'll
have plenty of gas in me.

So I improvised on the spot.

>> Actually, I wrote about it in the part you failed to remove.
>
> Yes, missed that - sorry. Due to the rendering of the text in your posts I
> find them awkward to read!!!

Point taken into consideration.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:10:14 GMT, "David Cohen"
<sammiesdad@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote
>>
>> Note to David Cohen: You advice is not needed. These are weights
>> and not the baby rattles you are used to. If I ever need advice on
>> how to talcum powder a baby's ass I will let you know.
>
>Not that I would want to interfere with your masturbatory fantasies about
>me, but creepy AND moron is a bad combination.
>
>David

Wrong again. Creepy and smart are a much worse combination. Just
look at all the best serial killers.

On 31 Oct 2006 05:49:47 -0800, Kettlebellinc@aol.com wrote:

>I don't it matters as long as you're consistent within a given cycle.
>The way to make gains is to force your body to adapt to stimuli. If
>the stimulus is too consistent over a long period of time, you'll cease
>to make much of a gain. Changing up the way you load up the exercises
>for a given cycle is an excellent way to throw a curveball at your body
>while still keeping the same exercises in a new cycle. For general
>fitness, I alway recommend going with something you're in the mood for
>and building a short cycle around that. That will keep your interest
>up so you're more likely to maintain the program. Do switch things up
>every 4-6 weeks though, with a backoff week thrown in there between
>cycles..

That is pretty much the rules of the routine I came up with. This is
the longest stretch I have lifted for so this experience is new too
me. I haven't made many gains in the last couple of months and I am
excited about the new routine.

On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:49:49 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
<bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:

>If you have a problem with motivation, which I doubt, then it's a good
>thing. If you have a problem with too much of motivation, which I
>suspect, then it's a bad thing to push harder.
>
>The trick is to push just as hard as is optimal, not the hardest you
>can.
>
>How hard is right? It depends. How much you eat, how much you sleep,
>does your wife love you, does your daughter take drugs and so on.
>
>All this things count big time. They shift hormonal reactions of your
>body.
>
>IMO one should learn to listen to his body as early as possible. Once
>you got it, rep or set schemes matter little. You lift until the
>desired outcome is reached and then go home.
>
>You should learn to know when this desired outcome is reached.
>
>Then, you do not have to count reps or sets. I do not. Pete does not.
>Dave Draper does not. Many great others (see Pete, I put you among
>greats! ;-) also aren't crazy about reps or sets.
>
>Many great guys doesn't even know beforehand what kind of exercises
>they will do during their next workout. It all depends how they *feel*
>once they start actually doing whatever they planned for the day.
>
>If it feels like shit to squat heavy that day, than it probably is
>shit. Maybe your boss yelled at you and you are stressed and can't
>sleep. What good additional stress will do for you? Quite possibly
>nothing good. Taking a day of rest or doing some easy bullshit will be
>much better choice and it will help you break a PR next time you enter
>the gym.
>
>Just to summarize: Having a plan is good; even bad plan is better than
> no plan. Being reactive to changing conditions is
> best; best plan mindlessly executed is worse than
> stupid plan executed smartly.

Well first of all I don't think I am at a point where I can just walk
in and do what I feel like doing. I don't think I have enough
experience with all the different possibilities of lifting to do that.
Pete has been lifting a lot longer than I have and knows both the gym
and his own body better than myself. I also don't trust my body to
tell me what is best for it. I am sure it would be happy sitting at
home watching TV. I want it getting some exercise.

The kind of thing I was getting at was how to go from sitting at a
computer all day to lifting heavy weights. Sometimes it has hard for
me to get focused and into the heavy exercise. But if I don't than I
won't be pushing myself hard enough to get a good workout.

I don't think it is a good idea to just go home because of stress from
work or other things in my head. There is a talent to letting all
that stuff go and getting down to business. If I can learn to leave
the rest of the world behind when I enter the gym I think I will be
much better off. I used to be better at when I was younger. When I
played hockey I never heard the crowd. And when I slept even a
lighting storm couldn't wake me up. Something changed as a teenager
and I haven't been able to focus like that since.

Dnia 2006-10-31 Shute napisa³(a):
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:49:49 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
><bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Just to summarize: Having a plan is good; even bad plan is better than
>> no plan. Being reactive to changing conditions is
>> best; best plan mindlessly executed is worse than
>> stupid plan executed smartly.
>
> Well first of all I don't think I am at a point where I can just walk
> in and do what I feel like doing. I don't think I have enough
> experience with all the different possibilities of lifting to do that.
> Pete has been lifting a lot longer than I have and knows both the gym
> and his own body better than myself.

Sure. Point is to strive and learn.

> I also don't trust my body to
> tell me what is best for it. I am sure it would be happy sitting at
> home watching TV. I want it getting some exercise.

Maybe you are overreaching at the moment? If you never feel like going
into a gym and kicking some major ass there is something wrong with a
routine you are following.

Exercise is addictive. You should be addicted to iron for some time
already.

> The kind of thing I was getting at was how to go from sitting at a
> computer all day to lifting heavy weights. Sometimes it has hard for
> me to get focused and into the heavy exercise. But if I don't than I
> won't be pushing myself hard enough to get a good workout.

How about a little experimentation? See what happens if you ease
things at least a little for days like that. Body can be really funny
at times.

I'll give you a riddle. I decided to bulk a little so I started to eat
more "junk" and prepared myself for a "shock" of gaining at least an
inch around my waist. Funny thing is I lost one inch.

How come? Hormones. Food is anabolic and once I gave my body what it
needed it reacted positively by making me more active through a day and
during workouts (or something similar). I also gained some thickness
in my upper body, so more food can equal leaner and more muscular
physique.

> I don't think it is a good idea to just go home because of stress from
> work or other things in my head. There is a talent to letting all
> that stuff go and getting down to business. If I can learn to leave
> the rest of the world behind when I enter the gym I think I will be
> much better off. I used to be better at when I was younger.

Regular and consistent exercises are a good thing. Showing up is the
winner, sure, so go to a gym, but be smart in what you plan for a day.
More is not always better. Better is better. The same goes for harder.

> When I
> played hockey I never heard the crowd. And when I slept even a
> lighting storm couldn't wake me up. Something changed as a teenager
> and I haven't been able to focus like that since.

It will come, but remember that beating a horse harder yields higher
speed only to a point. You cross it, and a horse slows down no matter
the blows. Also, research is generally done on young and lazy horses,
so it almost always shows that more blows or harder blows yield higher
speed. Especially that they check for short term effects.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters@yahoo.com> schreef:

> IMO one should learn to listen to his body as early as possible. Once
> you got it, rep or set schemes matter little. You lift until the
> desired outcome is reached and then go home.

> You should learn to know when this desired outcome is reached.

> Then, you do not have to count reps or sets. I do not. Pete does not.
> Dave Draper does not. Many great others (see Pete, I put you among
> greats! ;-) also aren't crazy about reps or sets.

I am flattered.
Really.

> Many great guys doesn't even know beforehand what kind of exercises
> they will do during their next workout. It all depends how they *feel*
> once they start actually doing whatever they planned for the day.

All i know is that i work upper or lower body.
And usually something like shoulders/back/triceps.

Yesterday i did overheads , small grip pulldowns, tricep pushdowns and i
ended with cable rows.
Reps are 8. When i do a set and 8 feels easy, i do 2-3 sets with 5kg extra.
And see how that feels.
And remember that for the next time, of course.

I really have no idea how many sets i did. All i know is that i was 2 hours
in the gym. But i talk a lot between sets. I never EVER start a set with a
high pulse or when i am still out of breath. Lots of other guys do. I mean,
whats the point?

Three years ago i decided to work out with a friend. This guy was dead
serious about training. Rest intervals were 30-60 seconds (because Arnold
said so...)
and no talking in between sets. As if talking make your muscles shrink.
However, at the beginning of set, i grap the bar, or handle, and pause for
about 10-15 seconds. I concentrate and try to get into this "universe of my
own." I am pretty sure you know what i mean. Then i blast for about 15
seconds.

After the "blast" i need to relax for about 2-4 minutes. The relaxing, and
talking, really helps me to prepare for my next set.

last year, when i was in better shape then i am now, i typically ended with
cable rows. A rumanian guy, who likes me because i actually train heavy, was
walking around and couted my sets. I didnt knew. I pulled 110 for 8 reps,
and he informed me that i did eleven sets. I assumed it was 7-8 or
something. 11 is an odd number, so i decide to do 12. Took me about 45
minutes for that exercise only.

I love cable rows. I feel that back straightening effect for at least 3
days.

> If it feels like shit to squat heavy that day, than it probably is
> shit. Maybe your boss yelled at you and you are stressed and can't
> sleep. What good additional stress will do for you? Quite possibly
> nothing good.

Your body is giving signals all the time. Trust the signals. DONT trust the
experts who have written books.
Sounds arrogant, yes, but this defenitely works for me.

> Taking a day of rest or doing some easy bullshit will be
> much better choice and it will help you break a PR next time you enter
> the gym.

> Just to summarize: Having a plan is good; even bad plan is better than
> no plan. Being reactive to changing conditions is
> best; best plan mindlessly executed is worse than
> stupid plan executed smartly.

Seems to work for me.

If i decide to work back, i might do 3 exercises for a total of 20 sets.
Or i might do 2 exercises for 6 sets. I really dont know up front.

----
Pete

"Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> schreef:

>> Then, you do not have to count reps or sets. I do not. Pete does
>> not. Dave Draper does not.

> How do you know if you are making progress then?

By the amount of weight used.
And by looking at the scale and/or mirror.

>> Many great others (see Pete, I put you
>> among greats! ;-) also aren't crazy about reps or sets.

>> Many great guys doesn't even know beforehand what kind of exercises
>> they will do during their next workout. It all depends how they
>> *feel* once they start actually doing whatever they planned for the
>> day.

> If you fail to plan, you plan to fail!

I plan to get stronger/bigger.

----
Pete

"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> schreef:

>>Just to summarize: Having a plan is good; even bad plan is better than
>> no plan. Being reactive to changing conditions is
>> best; best plan mindlessly executed is worse than
>> stupid plan executed smartly.

> Well first of all I don't think I am at a point where I can just walk
> in and do what I feel like doing. I don't think I have enough
> experience with all the different possibilities of lifting to do that.
> Pete has been lifting a lot longer than I have and knows both the gym
> and his own body better than myself. I also don't trust my body to
> tell me what is best for it. I am sure it would be happy sitting at
> home watching TV. I want it getting some exercise.

Shute, are you at the point where you are leaving out certain exercise for
certain bodyparts and emphazising others?
You really should do that first. Trust me.

I really doent matter *which* exercises you you do for a certain bodypart,
as long as you work that bodypart.
For tricep specific training, i do cable pushdowns only. With a straight
bar. No variation whatsoever. My goal? To use the full stack. Which is 80
kg. And i did, 2 1/2 years ago.

For back i prefer small grip pulldowns and small grip cable rows. Once i a
while i do wide grip pulldowns. For shoulders i do mostly overheads.
Laterals once in a while.

I consider those parts my best parts.
Focus on the exercises you actually *enjoy.* Thats a good start.

My goals are to reach the full stack. My next goal is full stack +10 kg
plate. Then a 25 kg plate.
Free weights? Yeah, when i squat. Or curl, which i really dont do that much.
Mostly cables/machines.
I prefer to focus on getting the weights up, not balance. If i wanted
balance i would hace chosen another sport...

I havent done flat benches in the last 12 years or so. Perhaps 15. Anyway,
people in my gym are constantly reminding me that i *should.* And that i
should keep my elbows completely still when i do pushdowns. And that i
shouldnt decline my torso backwards when i do small grip pull downs.

> The kind of thing I was getting at was how to go from sitting at a
> computer all day to lifting heavy weights. Sometimes it has hard for
> me to get focused and into the heavy exercise. But if I don't than I
> won't be pushing myself hard enough to get a good workout.

Which exercise you really enjoy? I mean, ENJOY. Reps? High, low, medium?

----
Pete

On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 12:35:43 +0100, "Pete" <phoutstra@wanadoo.nl>
wrote:

>"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> schreef:
>
>>>Just to summarize: Having a plan is good; even bad plan is better than
>>> no plan. Being reactive to changing conditions is
>>> best; best plan mindlessly executed is worse than
>>> stupid plan executed smartly.
>
>> Well first of all I don't think I am at a point where I can just walk
>> in and do what I feel like doing. I don't think I have enough
>> experience with all the different possibilities of lifting to do that.
>> Pete has been lifting a lot longer than I have and knows both the gym
>> and his own body better than myself. I also don't trust my body to
>> tell me what is best for it. I am sure it would be happy sitting at
>> home watching TV. I want it getting some exercise.
>
>Shute, are you at the point where you are leaving out certain exercise for
>certain bodyparts and emphazising others?
>You really should do that first. Trust me.
>
>I really doent matter *which* exercises you you do for a certain bodypart,
>as long as you work that bodypart.
>For tricep specific training, i do cable pushdowns only. With a straight
>bar. No variation whatsoever. My goal? To use the full stack. Which is 80
>kg. And i did, 2 1/2 years ago.

Which machines are you using?

We currently have all Precor equipment, who have no idea what the
plates actually are in *real* weight equivalence, even though I wrote
to them for clarification and spoke to people at managerial level. See
their bullshit reply:
http://www.fitnwell.net/Misc.htm


The plates are marked from one to 20 mainly and vary from machine to
machine, including the changing purchase advantage due to various
pullies and belts, so there is no way of knowing how much is actually
being lifted.

>
>For back i prefer small grip pulldowns and small grip cable rows. Once i a
>while i do wide grip pulldowns. For shoulders i do mostly overheads.
>Laterals once in a while.
>
>I consider those parts my best parts.
>Focus on the exercises you actually *enjoy.* Thats a good start.
>
>My goals are to reach the full stack. My next goal is full stack +10 kg
>plate. Then a 25 kg plate.
>Free weights? Yeah, when i squat. Or curl, which i really dont do that much.
>Mostly cables/machines.
>I prefer to focus on getting the weights up, not balance. If i wanted
>balance i would hace chosen another sport...

I'm working the stack on most of our machines and I fail to see how
extra weight can be added to those machines. For example, the leg
press machine I posted is much too easy even with the stack, so I have
to do more sets to compensate.

"Charles" <jrh@msn.com> schreef:

>>I really doent matter *which* exercises you you do for a certain bodypart,
>>as long as you work that bodypart.
>>For tricep specific training, i do cable pushdowns only. With a straight
>>bar. No variation whatsoever. My goal? To use the full stack. Which is 80
>>kg. And i did, 2 1/2 years ago.

> Which machines are you using?

Standard pulley with a weight stack. I like to move my elbows when pushing
down the weight.

> We currently have all Precor equipment, who have no idea what the
> plates actually are in *real* weight equivalence, even though I wrote
> to them for clarification and spoke to people at managerial level. See
> their bullshit reply:
> http://www.fitnwell.net/Misc.htm

Have you measured the distance of, for instance, the feet during the
concentric (or eccentric) and compared that to distance of the point A and B
of the weight stack? That usually helps.

When there is not an actual lever, and only a cable or synthetic band
between the sledge, or handles, between the stack, the stack will move at
the same distance as the hand or feet.

In that case 100kg = 100kg.

Not taking into consideration that a free weight is a little bit more
difficult because of balance.
I wont even go there... ;-O

> The plates are marked from one to 20 mainly and vary from machine to
> machine, including the changing purchase advantage due to various
> pullies and belts, so there is no way of knowing how much is actually
> being lifted.

We have a very cool overhead machine with a synthetic band between the lever
and the stack. It was very easy to calculate;

The band is attached at 80% of the distance between the handles and the
rotation point of the lever.

So 100kg = 80 kg.

>>My goals are to reach the full stack. My next goal is full stack +10 kg
>>plate. Then a 25 kg plate.
>>Free weights? Yeah, when i squat. Or curl, which i really dont do that
>>much.
>>Mostly cables/machines.
>>I prefer to focus on getting the weights up, not balance. If i wanted
>>balance i would hace chosen another sport...

> I'm working the stack on most of our machines and I fail to see how
> extra weight can be added to those machines. For example, the leg
> press machine I posted is much too easy even with the stack, so I have
> to do more sets to compensate.

Just put on a big plate vertically, with a long pin. Attach it to the stack.
Use a chain when in doubt.
I work out most of time when i know the owner is gone. He doesnt want me to
do it.

And when he IS there he is constantly checking his camera.

----
Pete

Dnia 2006-11-01 Pete napisa³(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters@yahoo.com> schreef:
>
>> You should learn to know when this desired outcome is reached.
>
>> Then, you do not have to count reps or sets. I do not. Pete does not.
>> Dave Draper does not. Many great others (see Pete, I put you among
>> greats! ;-) also aren't crazy about reps or sets.
>
> I am flattered.
> Really.

I mean, you make sense.

>> Many great guys doesn't even know beforehand what kind of exercises
>> they will do during their next workout. It all depends how they *feel*
>> once they start actually doing whatever they planned for the day.
>
> All i know is that i work upper or lower body.
> And usually something like shoulders/back/triceps.

I think more in terms of movements then bodyparts, but it boils down to
more or less the same. I don't know if I'll be able to do much of
assistance before I try. I don't even know if I'll be able to do
much of my core movement for the day. It simply depends how I feel.

> Yesterday i did overheads , small grip pulldowns, tricep pushdowns and i
> ended with cable rows.
> Reps are 8. When i do a set and 8 feels easy, i do 2-3 sets with 5kg extra.
> And see how that feels.
> And remember that for the next time, of course.

I mostly do random number of low rep sets. It can be just several, if
I feel bad, or quite a lot if I feel like a superhero. I'm open to
replace difficult exercises with something easy if I feel like shit.
Hard stuff will make no sense anyway, but if I'll do several sets of
some isolation it might help in the long run.

> I really have no idea how many sets i did.

Same here. I do until I've had enough.

> All i know is that i was 2 hours
> in the gym. But i talk a lot between sets. I never EVER start a set with a
> high pulse or when i am still out of breath. Lots of other guys do. I mean,
> whats the point?

I'm one of those who uses short rest intervals. What's the point? I
like it that way! It hits something in me which I want being hit.

[...]
> I love cable rows. I feel that back straightening effect for at least 3
> days.

I liked them too. The fact I was good at them had no impact at all!
Honest! I like also dumbbell rows, and also fact that I'm good at them
has nothing to do with it! ;-)

On the other hand, I was good at leg press and never liked this
exercise. I suck at squats, but I like them anyway. The same for
overhead preses - OK, maybe I'm not so shallow, after all. ;-)

>> If it feels like shit to squat heavy that day, than it probably is
>> shit. Maybe your boss yelled at you and you are stressed and can't
>> sleep. What good additional stress will do for you? Quite possibly
>> nothing good.
>
> Your body is giving signals all the time. Trust the signals. DONT trust the
> experts who have written books.
> Sounds arrogant, yes, but this defenitely works for me.

It's not arrogant. Body always knows better. Wise experts would agree
without a glitch.

[...]
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 14:25:00 +0100, "Pete" <phoutstra@wanadoo.nl>
wrote:

>"Charles" <jrh@msn.com> schreef:
>
>>>I really doent matter *which* exercises you you do for a certain bodypart,
>>>as long as you work that bodypart.
>>>For tricep specific training, i do cable pushdowns only. With a straight
>>>bar. No variation whatsoever. My goal? To use the full stack. Which is 80
>>>kg. And i did, 2 1/2 years ago.
>
>> Which machines are you using?
>
>Standard pulley with a weight stack. I like to move my elbows when pushing
>down the weight.
>
>> We currently have all Precor equipment, who have no idea what the
>> plates actually are in *real* weight equivalence, even though I wrote
>> to them for clarification and spoke to people at managerial level. See
>> their bullshit reply:
>> http://www.fitnwell.net/Misc.htm
>
>Have you measured the distance of, for instance, the feet during the
>concentric (or eccentric)

The vertical distance from floor to handle?

>and compared that to distance of the point A and B
>of the weight stack? That usually helps.

Where point A is at the weight stack end, and point B is the point
where it goes over the pulley?

>
>When there is not an actual lever, and only a cable or synthetic band
>between the sledge, or handles, between the stack, the stack will move at
>the same distance as the hand or feet.
>
>In that case 100kg = 100kg.

Even in that case there is still a mechanical advantage.

Some of our machines have a mechanical advantage of 3 and 4 due to the
pullies they go round.

>
>Not taking into consideration that a free weight is a little bit more
>difficult because of balance.
>I wont even go there... ;-O
>
> > The plates are marked from one to 20 mainly and vary from machine to
>> machine, including the changing purchase advantage due to various
>> pullies and belts, so there is no way of knowing how much is actually
>> being lifted.
>
>We have a very cool overhead machine with a synthetic band between the lever
>and the stack. It was very easy to calculate;
>
>The band is attached at 80% of the distance between the handles and the
>rotation point of the lever.
>
>So 100kg = 80 kg.

That might work if you knew the actual weight of each incremental
plate. Precor don't, or won't or can't convert it to any practical
use.

>
>>>My goals are to reach the full stack. My next goal is full stack +10 kg
>>>plate. Then a 25 kg plate.
>>>Free weights? Yeah, when i squat. Or curl, which i really dont do that
>>>much.
>>>Mostly cables/machines.
>>>I prefer to focus on getting the weights up, not balance. If i wanted
>>>balance i would hace chosen another sport...
>
>> I'm working the stack on most of our machines and I fail to see how
>> extra weight can be added to those machines. For example, the leg
>> press machine I posted is much too easy even with the stack, so I have
>> to do more sets to compensate.
>
>Just put on a big plate vertically, with a long pin. Attach it to the stack.
>Use a chain when in doubt.

See the .jpegs at the page on my web site I posted earlier; you will
see that can't be done - I've tried, as no doubt Keith may recall when
we last discussed this intriguing topic.

>I work out most of time when i know the owner is gone. He doesnt want me to
>do it.

The staff at my gym have aided and abetted me trying to achieve extra
weight, but we have had no luck without removing the safety guards,
which understandably, is a step too far! ;o)

>
>And when he IS there he is constantly checking his camera.

The bugger! ;o)

"Charles" <jrh@msn.com> schreef:

>>> We currently have all Precor equipment, who have no idea what the
>>> plates actually are in *real* weight equivalence, even though I wrote
>>> to them for clarification and spoke to people at managerial level. See
>>> their bullshit reply:
>>> http://www.fitnwell.net/Misc.htm

>>Have you measured the distance of, for instance, the feet during the
>>concentric (or eccentric)

> The vertical distance from floor to handle?

Doesnt matter.
Just the distance they move during the concentric or eccentric. Doesnt
matter if its vertical or horizontal.

>>and compared that to distance of the point A and B
>>of the weight stack? That usually helps.

> Where point A is at the weight stack end, and point B is the point
> where it goes over the pulley?

Just the distance the stack travels.
For instance, i use a pulley for both back and triceps without a wheel/lever
in between. My hands travel the same distance as the stack.

We have a cross-over set-up that actually DOES an extra wheel/lever in
bettween the handle and stack. So the weight stack only moves half the
distance as the hands. Which makes 80 kilos only 40.

And this is also the prime reason some MORONS prefer to use this set-up.

>>When there is not an actual lever, and only a cable or synthetic band
>>between the sledge, or handles, between the stack, the stack will move at
>>the same distance as the hand or feet.

>>In that case 100kg = 100kg.

> Even in that case there is still a mechanical advantage.

I dont think so.
If the weight travels the same distance as the hands/feet, i have no reason
to assume that there is an advantage.

I have used a standing calf raise machine where it was the other way around.
The ROM of the heel was only about 6 inches, but the machine was designed in
such a way that the weight travelled 50% more then that. So you had to
reduce the weight by aprox. 33% compared to a calf machine where the ROM of
the weight was the same as the heel.

> Some of our machines have a mechanical advantage of 3 and 4 due to the
> pullies they go round.

Sure.
Have you compared the distance of the hands to that of the stack?

>>We have a very cool overhead machine with a synthetic band between the
>>lever
>>and the stack. It was very easy to calculate;

>>The band is attached at 80% of the distance between the handles and the
>>rotation point of the lever.

>>So 100kg = 80 kg.

> That might work if you knew the actual weight of each incremental
> plate. Precor don't, or won't or can't convert it to any practical
> use.

It doesnt matter how many plates you use. Each plate, on the machine i use,
is 5 kilo.
The lever stays at 80%. Wether you use 5 kilo or 1000.

>>> I'm working the stack on most of our machines and I fail to see how
>>> extra weight can be added to those machines. For example, the leg
>>> press machine I posted is much too easy even with the stack, so I have
>>> to do more sets to compensate.

>>Just put on a big plate vertically, with a long pin. Attach it to the
>>stack.
>>Use a chain when in doubt.

> See the .jpegs at the page on my web site I posted earlier; you will
> see that can't be done - I've tried, as no doubt Keith may recall when
> we last discussed this intriguing topic.

Cant be done ?!?!?!

I can see the weight stack. In the seated leg-press, you can easily measure
how much the stack goes up.
Compare that to the distance of the seat that moves back.

If its the same distance then the weight stays the same.

>>I work out most of time when i know the owner is gone. He doesnt want me
>>to
>>do it.

> The staff at my gym have aided and abetted me trying to achieve extra
> weight, but we have had no luck without removing the safety guards,
> which understandably, is a step too far! ;o)

I see what you mean now. The plates are guarded.
We have an ab machine that goes up to 100kg. I can allready do 30 reps, but
the plates are guarded ;-(

>>And when he IS there he is constantly checking his camera.

> The bugger! ;o)

He will only clean and oil the gliders of the stacks when i insinst. Which i
do.
The only reason he uses thicker cables for the back pulleys is also because
i imsisted.

Seriously.

----
Pete

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 19:49:56 -0500, Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

>I was designing a new workout and I notice there are variations on
>changing weights between sets. Some people leave it the same for all
>sets. Some add weight as they go along, and others subtract it. Is
>this just a matter of preference or are any of these better than
>others? And should the weight change every set or only on some?

Everyone I train with either keeps the weight the same or they go up
in weight, using the same number of reps. Some of use will do a down
set at a lighter weight for more reps, though.

>
>My personal preference is to take weight off after the 2nd or 3rd set.
>That keeps me doing the same reps as I go along. If I use the same
>weight I am either not working very hard on the first set or not
>getting enough reps on the last one. I never tried adding weights but
>it seems people who compete use this method. I assume it makes sure
>they get in one good lift. But maybe there are other benefits.

My 3rd and 4th sets are usually my easiest when doing sets of five.

On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:13:29 +0100, "Pete" <phoutstra@wanadoo.nl>
wrote:

>"Charles" <jrh@msn.com> schreef:
>
>>>> We currently have all Precor equipment, who have no idea what the
>>>> plates actually are in *real* weight equivalence, even though I wrote
>>>> to them for clarification and spoke to people at managerial level. See
>>>> their bullshit reply:
>>>> http://www.fitnwell.net/Misc.htm
>
>>>Have you measured the distance of, for instance, the feet during the
>>>concentric (or eccentric)
>
>> The vertical distance from floor to handle?
>
>Doesnt matter.
>Just the distance they move during the concentric or eccentric. Doesnt
>matter if its vertical or horizontal.
>
>>>and compared that to distance of the point A and B
>>>of the weight stack? That usually helps.
>
>> Where point A is at the weight stack end, and point B is the point
>> where it goes over the pulley?
>
>Just the distance the stack travels.
>For instance, i use a pulley for both back and triceps without a wheel/lever
>in between. My hands travel the same distance as the stack.
>
>We have a cross-over set-up that actually DOES an extra wheel/lever in
>bettween the handle and stack. So the weight stack only moves half the
>distance as the hands. Which makes 80 kilos only 40.
>
>And this is also the prime reason some MORONS prefer to use this set-up.
>
>>>When there is not an actual lever, and only a cable or synthetic band
>>>between the sledge, or handles, between the stack, the stack will move at
>>>the same distance as the hand or feet.
>
>>>In that case 100kg = 100kg.