Am I Cheating on My Deadlifts??

I feel so unfaithful to it...despite it being the King of Exercises
for me, having replaced jogging in that role, I still bench press much
more often than I deadlift....

Actually, what I'm really wondering is, is it cheating when I use my
arms and shoulders a lot? With lighter poundages of up to 225, I just
use my legs to stand up (and my back to stand up straight). But at my
1RM of 295-lbs., I find that I really need to lift up with my arms as
well, and even recruit my shoulders by pulling them back or
something...anyway, I'm definitely using the upper body more actively
than just "passively" hanging onto the weight, which is what I
typically do at lighter poundages as mentioned before...so is this
cheating? 'Cause I can't seem to get the 1RM up otherwise. I think I
was able to once, but for the past few sessions (that is to say, the
past month!) I absolutely have to bring into play the upper body....

Dnia Wed, 26 Sep 2007 o 22:12 GMT Prisoner at War napisa³(a):
> I feel so unfaithful to it...despite it being the King of Exercises
> for me, having replaced jogging in that role, I still bench press much
> more often than I deadlift....

AFAIK most powerlifters do the same. If you want to focus more on this
exercise, do some "light" days. Most people can't deadlift heavy as
often as they can benchpress heavy, or even squat heavy.

> Actually, what I'm really wondering is, is it cheating when I use my
> arms and shoulders a lot? With lighter poundages of up to 225, I just
> use my legs to stand up (and my back to stand up straight). But at my
> 1RM of 295-lbs., I find that I really need to lift up with my arms as
> well, and even recruit my shoulders by pulling them back or
> something...anyway, I'm definitely using the upper body more actively
> than just "passively" hanging onto the weight,

That's why some people call deadlift the King of Exercises. It recruits
a lot of muscles.

> which is what I
> typically do at lighter poundages as mentioned before...so is this
> cheating? 'Cause I can't seem to get the 1RM up otherwise. I think I
> was able to once, but for the past few sessions (that is to say, the
> past month!) I absolutely have to bring into play the upper body....

It's OK. I guess that you try to do this mind-muscle voodoo. Deadlift
is a different beast and it simply does not work this way. Look up
Ronnie Coleman deadlifting and see for yourself.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fdeh2v$e04$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia Wed, 26 Sep 2007 o 22:12 GMT Prisoner at War napisa³(a):
>> I feel so unfaithful to it...despite it being the King of Exercises
>> for me, having replaced jogging in that role, I still bench press
>> much
>> more often than I deadlift....
>
> AFAIK most powerlifters do the same.

-snip-

Just to be clear about this, powerlifters who don't deadlift much in
training but still deadlift well in competition are powerlifters who
squat at least twice a week. Bench has no connection to the deadlift.
Anyone who wishes to have a good deadlift needs to do something with a
better carryover than the bench press - it needn't be a barbell back
squat but that does turn out to have a great carryover for many people.
And, FWIW, although a good barbell back squat seems to have good
carryover to the deadlift, most find it doesn't work the other way
around at all, which is why I think a lot of 3-lift PL'ers squat a lot
and don't deadlift much in training.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Dnia Thu, 27 Sep 2007 o 14:43 GMT Steve Freides napisa³(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:fdeh2v$e04$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>> Dnia Wed, 26 Sep 2007 o 22:12 GMT Prisoner at War napisa³(a):
>>> I feel so unfaithful to it...despite it being the King of Exercises
>>> for me, having replaced jogging in that role, I still bench press
>>> much
>>> more often than I deadlift....
>>
>> AFAIK most powerlifters do the same.
>
> -snip-
>
> Just to be clear about this, powerlifters who don't deadlift much in
> training but still deadlift well in competition are powerlifters who
> squat at least twice a week. Bench has no connection to the deadlift.

But still, you could bench more often than deadlift. Bench simply puts
a lot less "overall" stress on your body than deadlift.

> Anyone who wishes to have a good deadlift needs to do something with a
> better carryover than the bench press - it needn't be a barbell back
> squat but that does turn out to have a great carryover for many people.
> And, FWIW, although a good barbell back squat seems to have good
> carryover to the deadlift, most find it doesn't work the other way
> around at all, which is why I think a lot of 3-lift PL'ers squat a lot
> and don't deadlift much in training.

I'm not sure if it's that simple. The same powerlifters who squat
religiously and skimp on deadlifting to "save their lower back" do extra
lower back work like reverse-hypers or GHRs. They theoretically could
skip assistance exercises and do some deadlifts, but they don't. It's
hard to explain why they would do that, until one takes in account the
"mental effort" of a heavy deadlift.

Deadlifts tended to "drain" my mind much worse (or better) than any
other exercise I ever did, and I suspect that this is why some
powerlifting schools stay away from often and heavy deadlifts. They
rather tend to train all the muscles involved in deadlift "separately",
thus saving "mind power". From this point of view, deadlifts are in a
"too much of a good thing" category.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Sep 27, 10:13 am, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm not sure if it's that simple. The same powerlifters who squat
> religiously and skimp on deadlifting to "save their lower back" do extra
> lower back work like reverse-hypers or GHRs. They theoretically could
> skip assistance exercises and do some deadlifts, but they don't. It's
> hard to explain why they would do that, until one takes in account the
> "mental effort" of a heavy deadlift.
>
> Deadlifts tended to "drain" my mind much worse (or better) than any
> other exercise I ever did, and I suspect that this is why some
> powerlifting schools stay away from often and heavy deadlifts. They
> rather tend to train all the muscles involved in deadlift "separately",
> thus saving "mind power". From this point of view, deadlifts are in a
> "too much of a good thing" category.
>
> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R



THIS IS SO TRUE!

Whew -- I'm glad it's not just me, then! It's bizarre, but the
deadlift doesn't leave me with DOMS or anything like that -- well, not
nowadays, usually -- but I do feel a weird sense of fatigue or
something, a kind of lowered mental acuity...not WRT to doing math
problems, say, but WRT to "thinking" about lifting, "feeling" the
muscles, even imagining the exercise...so I do bench presses and lat
raises, curls, etc., instead! (And I almost have to force
myself...it's like having satiated one's hunger and not feeling too
keen on dessert after all -- something like that....) Though I now
use 35-lb. dumbbells for bent-over lat raises, at five sets of
fourteen reps, holding 1-2 seconds at the "top" and trying not to use
momentum, that's much easier compared to the physical and mental
strain of deadlifting, especially deadlifting my 1RM of 295-lbs.

Absolutely incredible...when I first started to deadlift, it gave me a
total body workout in a few seconds, everything was put through its
paces...now, not quite that effect anymore, though still intense --
but a strange kind of fatigue or satiation creeps in and starts to
overtake me...it's all I can do to basically force myself to have
another go, and then another, and then another...and I rest anywhere
from two minutes to five whole minutes between sets! Most of it is
just to, like, psych myself up for the next bout...whoa....

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fdgdq8$c9e$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Dnia Thu, 27 Sep 2007 o 14:43 GMT Steve Freides napisa³(a):
>> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:fdeh2v$e04$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>> Dnia Wed, 26 Sep 2007 o 22:12 GMT Prisoner at War napisa³(a):
>>>> I feel so unfaithful to it...despite it being the King of Exercises
>>>> for me, having replaced jogging in that role, I still bench press
>>>> much
>>>> more often than I deadlift....
>>>
>>> AFAIK most powerlifters do the same.
>>
>> -snip-
>>
>> Just to be clear about this, powerlifters who don't deadlift much in
>> training but still deadlift well in competition are powerlifters who
>> squat at least twice a week. Bench has no connection to the
>> deadlift.
>
> But still, you could bench more often than deadlift.

Yes. Many people, me included, find the upper body recovers much more
quickly. As but one example, although I don't bench press, I do
one-armed, standing kettlebell overhead presses. I spent a long time
pressing almost every day and deadlifting only 2-3 times per week.

> Bench simply puts
> a lot less "overall" stress on your body than deadlift.

OK.

>> Anyone who wishes to have a good deadlift needs to do something with
>> a
>> better carryover than the bench press - it needn't be a barbell back
>> squat but that does turn out to have a great carryover for many
>> people.
>> And, FWIW, although a good barbell back squat seems to have good
>> carryover to the deadlift, most find it doesn't work the other way
>> around at all, which is why I think a lot of 3-lift PL'ers squat a
>> lot
>> and don't deadlift much in training.
>
> I'm not sure if it's that simple. The same powerlifters who squat
> religiously and skimp on deadlifting to "save their lower back" do
> extra
> lower back work like reverse-hypers or GHRs. They theoretically could
> skip assistance exercises and do some deadlifts, but they don't. It's
> hard to explain why they would do that, until one takes in account the
> "mental effort" of a heavy deadlift.
>
> Deadlifts tended to "drain" my mind much worse (or better) than any
> other exercise I ever did, and I suspect that this is why some
> powerlifting schools stay away from often and heavy deadlifts. They
> rather tend to train all the muscles involved in deadlift
> "separately",
> thus saving "mind power". From this point of view, deadlifts are in a
> "too much of a good thing" category.

I'm not sure we're disagreeing about anything here, but ...

The mental and CNS aspects of the deadlift may partially explain why it
isn't often trained frequently, but it remains true that lifters still
need to work _either_ the deadlift or other movements that work the same
systems/muscles.

Put another way, if one is attempting to achieve some sort of balance in
one's lifting, you can't skip what the DL works, so if your program is
basically bench and DL, then you _have_ to DL regularly. When the OP
says he's not DL'ing much, I think it's important that he either starts
DL'ing more or do other things that accomplish the same thing.

The problem I see, at least here in the US, is people building their
lifting programs around bench pressing; that's not good. A complete
program needs, IMHO, to first target the back and legs. If memory
serves, in Power To The People!, although Pavel outlines a two-lift
program consisting of the deadlift and the one-armed standing barbell
side press, he makes a point to say that the deadlift is 80-90% of the
program, and the press just to fill in the gaps, icing on the cake, or
some words to that effect. That is the point I'm trying to make here -
one shouldn't bench and only do a little of other things.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Sep 26, 4:57 pm, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> AFAIK most powerlifters do the same. If you want to focus more on this
> exercise, do some "light" days. Most people can't deadlift heavy as
> often as they can benchpress heavy, or even squat heavy.

Wow, I'd no idea...thanks; I feel better for being just average (as
opposed to below average!).

> That's why some people call deadlift the King of Exercises. It recruits
> a lot of muscles.

Yep. I used to think jogging was -- you even work out your abs when
jogging, did you know? But the deadlift, wow, that's like half an
hour of jogging in fifteen seconds!

> It's OK. I guess that you try to do this mind-muscle voodoo. Deadlift
> is a different beast and it simply does not work this way. Look up
> Ronnie Coleman deadlifting and see for yourself.

Hmmm...thanks for the ref; damned thing looks so simple...never
imagined there was more to it than simply picking up the weight....

> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Dnia Thu, 27 Sep 2007 o 17:09 GMT Prisoner at War napisa³(a):
>
> THIS IS SO TRUE!
>
> Whew -- I'm glad it's not just me, then! It's bizarre, but the
> deadlift doesn't leave me with DOMS or anything like that -- well, not
> nowadays, usually -- but I do feel a weird sense of fatigue or
> something, a kind of lowered mental acuity...not WRT to doing math
> problems, say, but WRT to "thinking" about lifting, "feeling" the
> muscles, even imagining the exercise...so I do bench presses and lat
> raises, curls, etc., instead! (And I almost have to force
> myself...it's like having satiated one's hunger and not feeling too
> keen on dessert after all -- something like that....) Though I now
> use 35-lb. dumbbells for bent-over lat raises, at five sets of
> fourteen reps, holding 1-2 seconds at the "top" and trying not to use
> momentum, that's much easier compared to the physical and mental
> strain of deadlifting, especially deadlifting my 1RM of 295-lbs.
>
> Absolutely incredible...when I first started to deadlift, it gave me a
> total body workout in a few seconds, everything was put through its
> paces...now, not quite that effect anymore, though still intense --
> but a strange kind of fatigue or satiation creeps in and starts to
> overtake me...it's all I can do to basically force myself to have
> another go, and then another, and then another...and I rest anywhere
> from two minutes to five whole minutes between sets! Most of it is
> just to, like, psych myself up for the next bout...whoa....

Not to put too fine point on it, but nowadays I tend to think that
deadlifts are a bit overrated when it comes to non competitive lifting.
You simply do not have to do them. There are plenty of different
exercises which would give you similar benefits (if not exactly the
same) without being so hard.

But if you want your deadlift to go up, do it every time you go to the
gym. Simply lower the weights used most of the time. Even to
ridiculously low poundages, if it's all you can take at the moment. It
will bring your deadlift up.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Dnia Thu, 27 Sep 2007 o 19:22 GMT Steve Freides napisa³(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:fdgdq8$c9e$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>>> Just to be clear about this, powerlifters who don't deadlift much in
>>> training but still deadlift well in competition are powerlifters who
>>> squat at least twice a week. Bench has no connection to the
>>> deadlift.
>>
>> But still, you could bench more often than deadlift.
>
> Yes. Many people, me included, find the upper body recovers much more
> quickly. As but one example, although I don't bench press, I do
> one-armed, standing kettlebell overhead presses. I spent a long time
> pressing almost every day and deadlifting only 2-3 times per week.

I doubt it's "upper body" which recovers quicker. I'd rather suspect
that small muscles can be repaired quicker than big muscles. Sure,
humans have big muscles in lower body, but I bet you could train your
calves daily without problems too.

>> I'm not sure if it's that simple. The same powerlifters who squat
>> religiously and skimp on deadlifting to "save their lower back" do
>> extra
>> lower back work like reverse-hypers or GHRs. They theoretically could
>> skip assistance exercises and do some deadlifts, but they don't. It's
>> hard to explain why they would do that, until one takes in account the
>> "mental effort" of a heavy deadlift.
>>
>> Deadlifts tended to "drain" my mind much worse (or better) than any
>> other exercise I ever did, and I suspect that this is why some
>> powerlifting schools stay away from often and heavy deadlifts. They
>> rather tend to train all the muscles involved in deadlift
>> "separately",
>> thus saving "mind power". From this point of view, deadlifts are in a
>> "too much of a good thing" category.
>
> I'm not sure we're disagreeing about anything here, but ...

Mostly not, I think.

> The mental and CNS aspects of the deadlift may partially explain why it
> isn't often trained frequently, but it remains true that lifters still
> need to work _either_ the deadlift or other movements that work the same
> systems/muscles.
>
> Put another way, if one is attempting to achieve some sort of balance in
> one's lifting, you can't skip what the DL works, so if your program is
> basically bench and DL, then you _have_ to DL regularly.

There is some truth to what you say here.

> When the OP
> says he's not DL'ing much, I think it's important that he either starts
> DL'ing more or do other things that accomplish the same thing.
>
> The problem I see, at least here in the US, is people building their
> lifting programs around bench pressing; that's not good.

Why not? Everybody asks how much you bench and while answering "Once,
every several years." may be considered funny, it doesn't achieve the
same effect as much shorter "350 lbs".

> A complete
> program needs, IMHO, to first target the back and legs. If memory
> serves, in Power To The People!, although Pavel outlines a two-lift
> program consisting of the deadlift and the one-armed standing barbell
> side press, he makes a point to say that the deadlift is 80-90% of the
> program, and the press just to fill in the gaps, icing on the cake, or
> some words to that effect. That is the point I'm trying to make here -
> one shouldn't bench and only do a little of other things.

You could do various things for various reasons. I don't really believe
that any program _ever_ was truly "complete". If someone wants to bench
a lot, they should bench a lot, and do all that is required by their body
to handle the stress of benching a lot (and if I was after big bench,
I'm pretty sure I'd never deadlift). Their choice, not mine.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Sep 27, 7:32 pm, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Not to put too fine point on it, but nowadays I tend to think that
> deadlifts are a bit overrated when it comes to non competitive lifting.
> You simply do not have to do them. There are plenty of different
> exercises which would give you similar benefits (if not exactly the
> same) without being so hard.

Well, I do these things for fun, mostly, anyway...but insofar as it
works so many muscle groups, it would seem to be a most time-efficient
exercise! I'm not sure I've gotten bigger or anything, though (like
wider back or whatever), but it's been fun.

> But if you want your deadlift to go up, do it every time you go to the
> gym. Simply lower the weights used most of the time. Even to
> ridiculously low poundages, if it's all you can take at the moment. It
> will bring your deadlift up.

I was able to deadlift my 1RM of 295-lbs. last night three full (good,
proper form) reps!!!

The trick was that it was the first exercise I did. Also, I though
warmed up 11x at 185-lbs., which is usual, I then only did one set of
225-lbs. 11x before moving on to tackle my 1RM. I did like seven sets
of it, variously at anywhere from 1 to 3 reps, with as much as five
minutes' rest in-between.

Is five minutes too much rest? Doesn't feel like it, insofar as I'm
not able to keep lifting more reps or poundages.

> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R