Cardiologist too conservative?

Zen Cohen wrote on 5/31/2008 :
> "MU" <danmc51@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4840ce0a$0$25952$6e1ede2f@read.cnntp.org...
>> Burr has brought this to us :
>>> "MU"
>>>>>
>>>>> Wait a minute, Bob didn't drop dead, he was in bed for three months and
>>>>> then
>>>>> passed. I talked (emailed) with his wife weekly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Burr
>>>>
>>>> "Drop dead" didn't mean instantaneously, yes, you are correct, and
>>>> during that time, he continued to dig his upcoming grave deeper and
>>>> deeper, in a spiritual sense. It was a pathetic spectacle to watch.
>>
>>> I was very surprised with the way he did things and his attitude.
>>
>>> Burr
>>
>> Honestly, I think Pastorio got into Usenet, specifically acting out against
>> Chung (and myself to a much lesser degree) out of boredom. He started in of
>> all places the alt.diet groups lol.
>>
>> Soon though, he had bought into his self-importance and the fallacy of his
>> crusade against Andrew. His name in print, his adoring fans, the whole
>> crock. His ego soared to hot ballooon size.
>>
>> Both Andrew and I called his poor health, sure enough, he was obese, giving
>> horrible advice to others embodied in his cooking methodolgies. He was
>> killing himself, and others, and we told him so. No telling how many
>> pastorio led to illness that could have been avoided.
>>
>> The pathetic part, the truly pride-driven Satanic Bob Pastorio, diagnosed
>> to die, continued to harass with no shame Chung and any other patrons of
>> SCM who did not buy into the Pastorio charm and way of life. Or in his
>> case, way to death.
>>
>> He didn't have to apologize or even say he was wrong, all he had to do is
>> back off. Pastorio could have slipped away and not many would have noticed
>> after 30 days or so.
>>
>> Couldn't do it. Angry, proud, ever-Bob to his end, he leaves behind him on
>> Usenet, as a permanent memory his family can never dodge, written, authored
>> and signed by Pastorio himself his egotism, his erroneous lifestyle and his
>> death as legacy to the same.
>>
>> Our buddy Zen, he's cut from the same cloth, wait and see.
>>
>> At least Pastorio was English fluent, I did enjoy bantering with him from
>> time to time. He abused his intellect and his way of expression and used it
>> to wrongfully influence God Knows how many.
>>
>> I always knew that Pastorio would do himself in as he did, the banter was
>> more like arguing with a terminal patient about his inevitable
>> passing...when he denies it over and over again.
>>

> You "knew" nothing and you still don't know shit. You're both a coward and a
> bully, and a xian whack who believes in a hateful god that is nothing more
> than a projection of your pathetic self.

We told Pastorio he was killing himself. He's dead. Truth is never
pathetic, only those, like you, who hide and deny it.

> You follow the ravings of a
> soon-to-be-former doctor who's so far gone he's reduced to calling everyone
> who disagrees with his bizarre ideas "satan." He's clearly a very sick man
> on the verge of collapse and you call him a friend but you keep egging him
> on rather than imploring him to get the help he desperately needs, thus
> you're really his worst enemy.

Who's in the rant here? Who's egging? Who's typing and panting in
desperation?

Looks like it is you, Killer.

> The only reason you keep harping over Bob's
> death is you're a mean-spirited ghoulish fat..

Kiddies make up facts, kiddies rant, they point fingers in the air and
blither, you're a Kiddie, a boy inside a Man's body.

> stupid

Kiddies make up facts, kiddies rant, they point fingers in the air and
blither, you're a Kiddie, a boy inside a Man's body.

> uneducated slob without
> a life, and the only pleasure you will ever get out of your miserable
> existence is through the misfortune of others.

Kiddies make up facts, kiddies rant, they point fingers in the air and
blither, you're a Kiddie, a boy inside a Man's body.

> Keep on posting your sick and
> inane observations and predictions to puff yourself up and delude yourself
> into believing you're somebody,

Kiddies make up facts, kiddies rant, they point fingers in the air and
blither, you're a Kiddie, a boy inside a Man's body.

> but bottom line, you are a weak irredeemable
> worthless little cunt of a man and you always will be. The only thing you
> ought to pray to your sick rendition of a god for is that you're never
> cursed with even the briefest awareness of the vile person you are because
> you don't have the character or the balls to deal with the sad truth about
> yourself. Good night, bitch, and don't dare look in the mirror.

Kiddies make up facts, kiddies rant, they point fingers in the air and
blither, you're a Kiddie, a boy inside a Man's body.

Zen Cohen pretended :

>> Honestly, I think Pastorio got into Usenet, specifically acting out against
>> Chung (and myself to a much lesser degree) out of boredom. He started in of
>> all places the alt.diet groups lol.
>>
>> Soon though, he had bought into his self-importance and the fallacy of his
>> crusade against Andrew. His name in print, his adoring fans, the whole
>> crock. His ego soared to hot ballooon size.
>>
>> Both Andrew and I called his poor health, sure enough, he was obese, giving
>> horrible advice to others embodied in his cooking methodolgies. He was
>> killing himself, and others, and we told him so. No telling how many
>> pastorio led to illness that could have been avoided.
>>
>> The pathetic part, the truly pride-driven Satanic Bob Pastorio, diagnosed
>> to die, continued to harass with no shame Chung and any other patrons of
>> SCM who did not buy into the Pastorio charm and way of life. Or in his
>> case, way to death.
>>
>> He didn't have to apologize or even say he was wrong, all he had to do is
>> back off. Pastorio could have slipped away and not many would have noticed
>> after 30 days or so.
>>
>> Couldn't do it. Angry, proud, ever-Bob to his end, he leaves behind him on
>> Usenet, as a permanent memory his family can never dodge, written, authored
>> and signed by Pastorio himself his egotism, his erroneous lifestyle and his
>> death as legacy to the same.
>>
>> Our buddy Zen, he's cut from the same cloth, wait and see.
>>
>> At least Pastorio was English fluent, I did enjoy bantering with him from
>> time to time. He abused his intellect and his way of expression and used it
>> to wrongfully influence God Knows how many.
>>
>> I always knew that Pastorio would do himself in as he did, the banter was
>> more like arguing with a terminal patient about his inevitable
>> passing...when he denies it over and over again.
>>

> You "knew" nothing

Both Andrew and I called his poor health. He was killing himself, and
others, and we told him so. He's dead, proof that you cannot undue.

> and you still don't know shit. You're both a coward and a
> bully, and a xian whack who believes in a hateful god that is nothing more
> than a projection of your pathetic self.

Cowards hide behind "Zen Cohen" aliases, many people know who I am,
there is no secrets there. Google groups, it is all there.

My God is a God that I love and do not understand, yet you claim to?
You know God's Mind, His Ways? This same God you espouse and shout
about, the one you deny exists, you are the expert on Him?

Your personal degredation is self-inflicted.

> You follow the ravings of a
> soon-to-be-former doctor who's so far gone he's reduced to calling everyone
> who disagrees with his bizarre ideas "satan."

Another lie. I have often sat with Andrew where he and I disagreed,
never once did as you lied.

> He's clearly a very sick man

Your credentials in this diagnosis?

> on the verge of collapse and you call him a friend

I call him what he is as he does me.

> but you keep egging him
> on rather than imploring him to get the help he desperately needs,

Your credentials in this diagnosis? None?

Yes, none.

> thus
> you're really his worst enemy.

Friends, adult friends, they discuss, they cajole, they prod and push
and examine each other. In that process, trust is gained, truth is
passed.

You know nothing of Andrew's and my relationship. You pimp yourself up,
you scream that you do, but you don't.

If for one minute I felt that you were accurate, I would not hesitate
to inform Andrew of my opinions.

This is not a "worst enemy" scenario. Your rant is, it's a dodge, an
effort to deflect your own insipid efforts, the intention to truly
cause harm to anyone and everyone who comes to sci.med.cardiology.

You have succeeded, you have killed people.

> The only reason you keep harping over Bob's
> death is you're a mean-spirited ghoulish fat

5'9" 162

> stupid uneducated slob without
> a life, and the only pleasure you will ever get out of your miserable
> existence is through the misfortune of others.

I have spent the vast majority of the 90s in service to athletes, most
of hem injured, for a pittance of money.

And you?

> Keep on posting your sick and
> inane observations and predictions to puff yourself up and delude yourself
> into believing you're somebody,

There are no delusions, I am somebody, somebody with a history of being
a father, a dedicated husband, a community worker, a leader, a
follower,a friend, an innovator, a lover of Christ.

> but bottom line, you are a weak irredeemable
> worthless little cunt of a man and you always will be. The only thing you
> ought to pray to your sick rendition of a god for is that you're never
> cursed with even the briefest awareness of the vile person you are because
> you don't have the character or the balls to deal with the sad truth about
> yourself.

The greatest thing, imo, being Christian is that I have no issues with
dealing with my weaknesses and my faults. I don't need "balls" or
"character", I don't need them because I don't fear the Truth of that
introspection.

When I see where I fail, I see opportunity not condemnation.

You see fault, condemnation, you see your failings, and see no way out.

You're riht there, you have no way out.

>Good night, bitch, and don't dare look in the mirror.

I see who I am in the reflection of others. Only an egoist would
believe that a mirror tells anything of value, a carnival, distorted
image.

Your Bitch,

MU

Jason Earl explained on 5/31/2008 :
> MU <danmc51@gmail.com> writes:

>> Jason Earl has brought this to us :
>>> I have a question. Are the treadmills that are used for these tests
>>> special? The treadmills that I have access to don't seem to have as
>>> much incline as a Bruce Protocol Test would require.
>>> Jason
>>
>> Special in what sense? Ability to incline, rapidity of inclination,
>> running surface, configuration of handrails, shutdown...Yes, they can
>> be as special as a Woodway or a simple as a $1K Pro. I particularly
>> liked the Force for athletic performance assessment (and rare
>> training).
>>
>> Incline angles can speed up the exhaustion process for cardiological
>> measurement but most people can be pushed to their limits at 7% grade
>> and 7 mph.

> Yes, but if I want to follow the Bruce protocol, then I need a treadmill
> with a lot more incline. I will probably settle for making up my own
> protocol more suited to the treadmills I actually use, but it won't be
> able to directly compare my results to medical research that uses the
> Bruce protocol.

Fair enough. Balke, Astrand, take a look at them. Why Bruce, what is it
that you actually wish to measure?

> It should still be pretty fun, though, especially if I can trick some of
> my friends into turning it into a competition. That's really the main
> point.

> Jason

lol

Bob Volkmer formulated the question :
> Maybe this is a better test. http://www.tocal.com/homestead/vandv/vv26.htm

> Note well the 1st hand account at the bottom - interval training

> Bob

Good post, Bob.

Zen Cohen has brought this to us :

> I had to take a treadmill stress test yesterday because I had minor
> right-side chest pain a couple weeks after a 40% spontaneous pneumothorax in
> my right lung.

Bets are, you're due another one. Two week out pain? Want to now what
that adds to your prognosis?

Naw, you posted to sci.med.cardiology, after years of TROLLING because
your fingers are not under your typing control. You don't need our
help, Zennie, how often (several times a day for a decade?) have you
told us we're sacks of worthless shit?

Best of luck to you !!

MU

In article <4842520a$0$25953$6e1ede2f@read.cnntp.org>,
MU <MUeer@gmail.com> wrote:

> Naw, you posted to sci.med.cardiology, after years of TROLLING because
> your fingers are not under your typing control.

Oh, the irony...
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

In article <g1q03t$qcf$1@aioe.org>, MU <moo@moo.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 31 May 2008 06:32:13 +0800, Burr wrote:
>
> > "MU" <>
> >> So do us a favor, don't drop dead here like Pastorio did. It took me at
> >> least 24 hours to completely and totally honor his living with the Truth
> >> of who he was.
> >>
> >> Like you, a nothing.
> >
> > Wait a minute, Bob didn't drop dead, he was in bed for three months and
> > then
> > passed. I talked (emailed) with his wife weekly.
> >
> > Burr
>
> "Drop dead" didn't mean instantaneously, yes, you are correct, and
> during that time, he continued to dig his upcoming grave deeper and
> deeper, in a spiritual sense. It was a pathetic spectacle to watch.

Interesting that Bob Pastorio has several hundred mourners. People sad
at his passing. He was always a helpful mentor to me in my cooking
efforts and he is missed.

I hope it makes you feel good that NOBODY will mourn when _you_ die. In
fact, there will probably be several thousand parties around the globe
to celebrate it.

I'll happily post one here at my house, and supply the beer...

I think that says a lot about who was/is the better person.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

A couple of comments for Zen:

Since your test was being performed for the purpose of diagnosing the
cause of chest pain, there was no point in going beyond 85% of your
age-predicted maximum heart rate (HR). Going higher (a) Does not
improve diagnostic yield, (b) Increases risk, and (c) Markedly
increases the likelihood of a false-positive test.

Most treadmill tests that are going to show a usefully-positive result
will do so well below 85%. [There’s quite a bit summarized in that
phrase ‘usefully-positive’, including the fact that even demonstrating
a genuinely abnormal response in a person with no symptoms and good
exercise capacity probably won't lead to any helpful interventional
treatment, and may well expose him/her to harm.]

Contrary to the experience of others mentioned here, I've found the
220-age rule, although empirical, and worse, linear, nevertheless has
surprising validity. It’s rare to find someone going more than 5%
above their predicted maximum when exercising to exhaustion (a form of
testing which has no place in clinical cardiology). It’s more common
to find that people are unable to continue on the treadmill while
still below this ‘maximum’.

A number of keen exercisers also seem keen to exercise at sustained HR
levels close to their predicted maximum, and may be proud of their
ability to do so. Since it’s been shown that vigorous exercise is
associated with a sudden death / heart attack rate that’s about 40x
the rate at rest, back-of-the-envelope calculation indicates that that
they would need to derive a substantial benefit from, say, 30 min/day
at high exercise levels before they would be even level-pegging with a
non-exerciser in terms of long-term benefit.

And since it’s never been shown in a randomized trial that exercise
prolongs life or prevents heart attacks, you would hope that someone
exercising at that level was getting enough out of it at the time to
justify exposure to those risks. Speaking as a cardiologist, I'm not
against exercise, but if you pay attention to the science, there’s no
medical justification for recommending (or supervising) exercise at
those high HR levels.

David Rollo
Cardiologist, Melbourne, Australia

On Jun 1, 6:00 am, David Rollo <dro...@cns.net.au> wrote:

"Since it’s been shown that vigorous exercise is
associated with a sudden death / heart attack rate that’s about 40x
the rate at rest"

Please cite your sources for the statement above.

On Jun 1, 12:38 am, MU <MU...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Zen Cohen has brought this to us :
>
> > I had to take a treadmill stress test yesterday because I had minor
> > right-side chest pain a couple weeks after a 40% spontaneous pneumothorax in
> > my right lung.
>
> Bets are, you're due another one. Two week out pain? Want to now what
> that adds to your prognosis?
>
> Naw, you posted to sci.med.cardiology, after years of TROLLING because
> your fingers are not under your typing control. You don't need our
> help, Zennie, how often (several times a day for a decade?) have you
> told us we're sacks of worthless shit?
>
> Best of luck to you !!
>
> MU

MU, Mu, Michael Roose, whoever/whatever you are. The content and tone
of your multiple posts over the years and the consistency of that
content speaks volumes as to the type of human being you are. Also
telling is how much you brag and protest that you are an accomplished,
grown-up man. The Usenet company you keep and who you praise (Chung)
vs who you denigrate (Pastorio, Zen, Kirkman) is quite revealing.

People see right through to what and who you are. So, keep up the good
work.

Truth wrote:
>
> MU, Mu, Michael Roose, whoever/whatever you are. The content and tone
> of your multiple posts over the years and the consistency of that
> content speaks volumes as to the type of human being you are. Also
> telling is how much you brag and protest that you are an accomplished,
> grown-up man. The Usenet company you keep and who you praise (Chung)
> vs who you denigrate (Pastorio, Zen, Kirkman) is quite revealing.
>
> People see right through to what and who you are. So, keep up the good
> work.


Send him to Barbados along with Chung

On Jun 1, 6:00 am, David Rollo <dro...@cns.net.au> wrote:
> A couple of comments for Zen:
>
> Since your test was being performed for the purpose of diagnosing the
> cause of chest pain, there was no point in going beyond 85% of your
> age-predicted maximum heart rate (HR). Going higher (a) Does not
> improve diagnostic yield, (b) Increases risk, and (c) Markedly
> increases the likelihood of a false-positive test.
>
> Most treadmill tests that are going to show a usefully-positive result
> will do so well below 85%. [There’s quite a bit summarized in that
> phrase ‘usefully-positive’, including the fact that even demonstrating
> a genuinely abnormal response in a person with no symptoms and good
> exercise capacity probably won't lead to any helpful interventional
> treatment, and may well expose him/her to harm.]
>
> Contrary to the experience of others mentioned here, I've found the
> 220-age rule, although empirical, and worse, linear, nevertheless has
> surprising validity. It’s rare to find someone going more than 5%
> above their predicted maximum when exercising to exhaustion (a form of
> testing which has no place in clinical cardiology). It’s more common
> to find that people are unable to continue on the treadmill while
> still below this ‘maximum’.
>
> A number of keen exercisers also seem keen to exercise at sustained HR
> levels close to their predicted maximum, and may be proud of their
> ability to do so. Since it’s been shown that vigorous exercise is
> associated with a sudden death / heart attack rate that’s about 40x
> the rate at rest, back-of-the-envelope calculation indicates that that
> they would need to derive a substantial benefit from, say, 30 min/day
> at high exercise levels before they would be even level-pegging with a
> non-exerciser in terms of long-term benefit.
>
> And since it’s never been shown in a randomized trial that exercise
> prolongs life or prevents heart attacks, you would hope that someone
> exercising at that level was getting enough out of it at the time to
> justify exposure to those risks. Speaking as a cardiologist, I'm not
> against exercise, but if you pay attention to the science, there’s no
> medical justification for recommending (or supervising) exercise at
> those high HR levels.
>
> David Rollo
> Cardiologist, Melbourne, Australia

Please cite references that support the statement below:

A number of keen exercisers also seem keen to exercise at sustained
HR
> levels close to their predicted maximum, and may be proud of their
> ability to do so. Since it’s been shown that vigorous exercise is
> associated with a sudden death / heart attack rate that’s about 40x
> the rate at rest,...
>

On Jun 1, 6:00 am, David Rollo <dro...@cns.net.au> wrote:
> A couple of comments for Zen:
>
> Since your test was being performed for the purpose of diagnosing the
> cause of chest pain, there was no point in going beyond 85% of your
> age-predicted maximum heart rate (HR). Going higher (a) Does not
> improve diagnostic yield, (b) Increases risk, and (c) Markedly
> increases the likelihood of a false-positive test.
>
> Most treadmill tests that are going to show a usefully-positive result
> will do so well below 85%. [There’s quite a bit summarized in that
> phrase ‘usefully-positive’, including the fact that even demonstrating
> a genuinely abnormal response in a person with no symptoms and good
> exercise capacity probably won't lead to any helpful interventional
> treatment, and may well expose him/her to harm.]
>
> Contrary to the experience of others mentioned here, I've found the
> 220-age rule, although empirical, and worse, linear, nevertheless has
> surprising validity. It’s rare to find someone going more than 5%
> above their predicted maximum when exercising to exhaustion (a form of
> testing which has no place in clinical cardiology). It’s more common
> to find that people are unable to continue on the treadmill while
> still below this ‘maximum’.
>
> A number of keen exercisers also seem keen to exercise at sustained HR
> levels close to their predicted maximum, and may be proud of their
> ability to do so. Since it’s been shown that vigorous exercise is
> associated with a sudden death / heart attack rate that’s about 40x
> the rate at rest, back-of-the-envelope calculation indicates that that
> they would need to derive a substantial benefit from, say, 30 min/day
> at high exercise levels before they would be even level-pegging with a
> non-exerciser in terms of long-term benefit.
>
> And since it’s never been shown in a randomized trial that exercise
> prolongs life or prevents heart attacks, you would hope that someone
> exercising at that level was getting enough out of it at the time to
> justify exposure to those risks. Speaking as a cardiologist, I'm not
> against exercise, but if you pay attention to the science, there’s no
> medical justification for recommending (or supervising) exercise at
> those high HR levels.
>
> David Rollo
> Cardiologist, Melbourne, Australia

My last post should have read, David Rollo, Please cite references to
support this:

> A number of keen exercisers also seem keen to exercise at sustained HR
> levels close to their predicted maximum, and may be proud of their
> ability to do so. Since it’s been shown that vigorous exercise is
> associated with a sudden death / heart attack rate that’s about 40x
> the rate at rest...

Dnia 2008-06-01 David Rollo napisa³(a):
[...]
> Contrary to the experience of others mentioned here, I've found the
> 220-age rule, although empirical, and worse, linear, nevertheless has
> surprising validity. It?s rare to find someone going more than 5%
> above their predicted maximum when exercising to exhaustion (a form of
> testing which has no place in clinical cardiology). It?s more common
> to find that people are unable to continue on the treadmill while
> still below this ?maximum?.

How come they are unable to continue if they don't train to exhaustion?
Or is training to exhaustion actually quite common in clinical
cardiology?

;-)

[...]
> And since it?s never been shown in a randomized trial that exercise
> prolongs life or prevents heart attacks, you would hope that someone
> exercising at that level was getting enough out of it at the time to
> justify exposure to those risks. Speaking as a cardiologist, I'm not
> against exercise, but if you pay attention to the science, there?s no
> medical justification for recommending (or supervising) exercise at
> those high HR levels.

If one gets sufficiently addicted to exercise it becomes a goal in
itself, not the way of reaching some other goal. All that mumbo jumbo
about health or weight control is probably just a rationalization.

But - it still works all right. If you exercise you look&feel younger,
so who cares if it doesn't make anyone younger? Quality of life is what
your patients care for most, even if you care just for their life,
without much concern for quality.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> David Rollo wrote in part:
> [...]
> > Contrary to the experience of others mentioned here, I've found the
> > 220-age rule, although empirical, and worse, linear, nevertheless has
> > surprising validity. It's rare to find someone going more than 5%
> > above their predicted maximum when exercising to exhaustion (a form of
> > testing which has no place in clinical cardiology). It's more common
> > to find that people are unable to continue on the treadmill while
> > still below this "maximum".
>
> How come they are unable to continue if they don't train to exhaustion?

Many different other reasons are possible. A partial list would
include chest pain, calf pain, hamstring pain, back pain, tired legs,
shortness of breath, etc.

> Or is training to exhaustion actually quite common in clinical
> cardiology?

Testing to exhaustion remains ill-advised as explicated by Dr. Rollo.

Be hungry... be healthy... be hungrier... be healthier...

Marana tha

Prayerfully in the awesome name of LORD Jesus Christ,

Andrew <><
--
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.m...8812d72ab4e17?

It happens that Omelet formulated :
>>> Wait a minute, Bob didn't drop dead, he was in bed for three months and
>>> then
>>> passed. I talked (emailed) with his wife weekly.
>>>
>>> Burr
>>
>> "Drop dead" didn't mean instantaneously, yes, you are correct, and
>> during that time, he continued to dig his upcoming grave deeper and
>> deeper, in a spiritual sense. It was a pathetic spectacle to watch.

> Interesting that Bob Pastorio has several hundred mourners. People sad
> at his passing. He was always a helpful mentor to me in my cooking
> efforts and he is missed.

I miss him too, he made great lasagna.

> I hope it makes you feel good that NOBODY will mourn when _you_ die. In
> fact, there will probably be several thousand parties around the globe
> to celebrate it.

Why you offing on me?

> I'll happily post one here at my house, and supply the beer...

> I think that says a lot about who was/is the better person.

Do you got any of Bob's leftover lasagna?

David Rollo expressed precisely :
> A couple of comments for Zen:

> Since your test was being performed for the purpose of diagnosing the
> cause of chest pain, there was no point in going beyond 85% of your
> age-predicted maximum heart rate (HR). Going higher (a) Does not
> improve diagnostic yield, (b) Increases risk, and (c) Markedly
> increases the likelihood of a false-positive test.

You missed the post where he said hewas doing all of this for fun.

Truth formulated the question :
>> Bets are, you're due another one. Two week out pain? Want to now what
>> that adds to your prognosis?
>>
>> Naw, you posted to sci.med.cardiology, after years of TROLLING because
>> your fingers are not under your typing control. You don't need our
>> help, Zennie, how often (several times a day for a decade?) have you
>> told us we're sacks of worthless shit?
>>
>> Best of luck to you !!
>>
>> MU

> MU, Mu, Michael Roose,

That's me. Mu is Mu, who the fuck are you?

After serious thinking Omelet wrote :
>> "Drop dead" didn't mean instantaneously, yes, you are correct, and
>> during that time, he continued to dig his upcoming grave deeper and
>> deeper, in a spiritual sense. It was a pathetic spectacle to watch.

> Interesting that Bob Pastorio has several hundred mourners. People sad
> at his passing. He was always a helpful mentor to me in my cooking
> efforts and he is missed.

Hitler had several hundred thousand mourners, people delusional, sad at
his passing.

> I hope it makes you feel good that NOBODY will mourn when _you_ die.

Oh, Little Omelet Kiddie, ....

> In
> fact, there will probably be several thousand parties around the globe
> to celebrate it.

Yes, several thousand.

> I'll happily post one here at my house, and supply the beer...

No you won't.

> I think that says a lot about who was/is the better person.

It says nothing except that you are a Little Kiddie who has too much
Little Kiddie time to play with adults on Usenet.

David Rollo expressed precisely :
> And since it’s never been shown in a randomized trial that exercise
> prolongs life or prevents heart attacks, you would hope that someone
> exercising at that level was getting enough out of it at the time to
> justify exposure to those risks. Speaking as a cardiologist, I'm not
> against exercise, but if you pay attention to the science, there’s no
> medical justification for recommending (or supervising) exercise at
> those high HR levels.

> David Rollo
> Cardiologist, Melbourne, Australia

As a trainer of athletes, I concur. Exercise has never been
demonstrated to be beneficial in the risk-reward scenario at those
levels fro the studies that have been related to me..

It happens that Truth formulated :
> On Jun 1, 6:00 am, David Rollo <dro...@cns.net.au> wrote:

> "Since it’s been shown that vigorous exercise is
> associated with a sudden death / heart attack rate that’s about 40x
> the rate at rest"

> Please cite your sources for the statement above.

Please cite your credentials that would show you could interpret the
citations. See how that works?

Truth explained :
> On Jun 1, 12:38 am, MU <MU...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Zen Cohen has brought this to us :
>>
>>> I had to take a treadmill stress test yesterday because I had minor
>>> right-side chest pain a couple weeks after a 40% spontaneous pneumothorax
>>> in my right lung.
>>
>> Bets are, you're due another one. Two week out pain? Want to now what
>> that adds to your prognosis?
>>
>> Naw, you posted to sci.med.cardiology, after years of TROLLING because
>> your fingers are not under your typing control. You don't need our
>> help, Zennie, how often (several times a day for a decade?) have you
>> told us we're sacks of worthless shit?
>>
>> Best of luck to you !!
>>
>> MU

> MU, Mu, Michael Roose, whoever/whatever you are. The content and tone
> of your multiple posts over the years and the consistency of that
> content speaks volumes as to the type of human being you are.

Does it? A bunch of Usenet posts, many forged under the name of MU,
tells you that?

> Also
> telling is how much you brag and protest that you are an accomplished,
> grown-up man.

Grown men don't brag, they simply are what they are. Accomplished men,
ditto. No surprise you don't understand either concept.

> The Usenet company you keep and who you praise (Chung)
> vs who you denigrate (Pastorio, Zen, Kirkman) is quite revealing.


So enlighten us.

> People see right through to what and who you are. So, keep up the good
> work.

What "people", six sock puppets and a room full of Kiddies? lol

>> "Since it’s been shown that vigorous exercise is
>> associated with a sudden death / heart attack rate that’s about 40x
>> the rate at rest"
>Please cite your sources for the statement above.

As requested, sources for my assertion that the risks of heart
attack / cardiac arrest / death are 40x greater during vigorous
exercise than at rest (or during light exercise):

The place to start would be the 2007 Scientific Statement of the
American Heart Association & American College of Sports Medicine
(citation below). On p. 2361, this consensus statement cites multiple
scientific studies which have confirmed this finding. The risks appear
to be greater for the least active, with the risk of cardiac arrest
being up to 164x greater on exercise than at rest for some groups.

In Siscovick’s study in Seattle, for previously asymptomatic
individuals the risk of cardiac arrest during exercise was 25x greater
overall (compared with rest or light activity), but was 56x greater
among generally sedentary people.

David Rollo

==================
REFS
==================
1. Exercise and Acute Cardiovascular Events: Placing the Risks Into
Perspective: A Scientific Statement From the American Heart
Association Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism
and the Council on Clinical Cardiology, in Collaboration With the
American College of Sports Medicine.
Thompson PD et al. Circulation 2007;115;2358-2368

2. Does sports activity enhance the risk of sudden death in
adolescents and young adults?
Corrado D et al., J Am Coll Cardiol. 2003;42:1959-1963.

3. Cardiovascular complications of recreational physical activity.
Vander L et al. Phys Sportsmed. 1982;10:89-90.

4. The acute cardiac risk of strenuous exercise.
Gibbons LW et al. JAMA. 1980;244:1799-1801.

5. Incidence of death during jogging in Rhode Island from 1975 through
1980.
Thompson PD et al. JAMA. 1982; 247:2535-2538.

6. Sporadic exercise: a trigger for acute cardiovascular events?
Franklin BA et al. Circulation. 2005; 102:II-612

7. The incidence of primary cardiac arrest during vigorous exercise.
Siscovick DS et al. N Engl J Med. 1984;311: 874-877.

8. Clinical and angiographic characteristics of exertion-related acute
myocardial infarction.
Giri S et al. JAMA. 1999;282:1731-1736.

9. Triggering of sudden death from cardiac causes by vigorous
exertion.
Albert CM et al. N Engl J Med. 2000;343:1355-1361.

10. Physical exertion as a trigger of acute myocardial infarction:
Triggers and Mechanisms of Myocardial Infarction Study Group.
Willich SN et al. N Engl J Med. 1993;329:1684-1690.

11. Triggering of acute myocardial infarction by heavy physical
exertion: protection against triggering by regular exertion:
Determinants of Myocardial Infarction Onset Study Investigators.
Mittleman MA et al. N Engl J Med. 1993;329:1677-1683.

12. Nontraumatic sports death in high school and college athletes.
Van Camp SP et al. Med Sci Sports Exercise. 1995;27:641-647.

13. Sudden death in young competitive athletes: clinical, demographic,
and pathological profiles.
Maron BJ et al. JAMA. 1996;276:199-204.

14. Sudden death in young competitive athletes: clinicopathologic
correlations in 22 cases.
Corrado D et al. Am J Med. 1990;89:588-596.

15. Cardiovascular complications during exercise training of cardiac
patients.
Haskell WL. Circulation. 1978;57:920-924.

16. Cardiovascular complications of outpatient cardiac rehabilitation
programs.
Van Camp SP & Peterson RA. JAMA. 1986;256:1160-1163.

17. Exercise-related cardiac arrest in cardiac rehabilitation: the
Johannesburg experience.
Digenio AG et al. S Afr Med J. 1991;79:188-191.

______________
Also relevant:
18. Sensitivity of exercise electrocardiography for acute cardiac
events during moderate and strenuous physical activity: the Lipid
Research Clinics Coronary Primary Prevention Trial.
Siscovick DS et al. Arch Intern Med. 1991;151:325-330.

Truth, your scientific assessment of Rollo's cites please.

MU

David Rollo presented the following explanation :
>>> "Since it’s been shown that vigorous exercise is
>>> associated with a sudden death / heart attack rate that’s about 40x
>>> the rate at rest"
>> Please cite your sources for the statement above.

> As requested, sources for my assertion that the risks of heart
> attack / cardiac arrest / death are 40x greater during vigorous
> exercise than at rest (or during light exercise):

> The place to start would be the 2007 Scientific Statement of the
> American Heart Association & American College of Sports Medicine
> (citation below). On p. 2361, this consensus statement cites multiple
> scientific studies which have confirmed this finding. The risks appear
> to be greater for the least active, with the risk of cardiac arrest
> being up to 164x greater on exercise than at rest for some groups.

> In Siscovick’s study in Seattle, for previously asymptomatic
> individuals the risk of cardiac arrest during exercise was 25x greater
> overall (compared with rest or light activity), but was 56x greater
> among generally sedentary people.

> David Rollo

> ==================
> REFS
> ==================
> 1. Exercise and Acute Cardiovascular Events: Placing the Risks Into
> Perspective: A Scientific Statement From the American Heart
> Association Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism
> and the Council on Clinical Cardiology, in Collaboration With the
> American College of Sports Medicine.
> Thompson PD et al. Circulation 2007;115;2358-2368

> 2. Does sports activity enhance the risk of sudden death in
> adolescents and young adults?
> Corrado D et al., J Am Coll Cardiol. 2003;42:1959-1963.

> 3. Cardiovascular complications of recreational physical activity.
> Vander L et al. Phys Sportsmed. 1982;10:89-90.

> 4. The acute cardiac risk of strenuous exercise.
> Gibbons LW et al. JAMA. 1980;244:1799-1801.

> 5. Incidence of death during jogging in Rhode Island from 1975 through
> 1980.
> Thompson PD et al. JAMA. 1982; 247:2535-2538.

> 6. Sporadic exercise: a trigger for acute cardiovascular events?
> Franklin BA et al. Circulation. 2005; 102:II-612

> 7. The incidence of primary cardiac arrest during vigorous exercise.
> Siscovick DS et al. N Engl J Med. 1984;311: 874-877.

> 8. Clinical and angiographic characteristics of exertion-related acute
> myocardial infarction.
> Giri S et al. JAMA. 1999;282:1731-1736.

> 9. Triggering of sudden death from cardiac causes by vigorous
> exertion.
> Albert CM et al. N Engl J Med. 2000;343:1355-1361.

> 10. Physical exertion as a trigger of acute myocardial infarction:
> Triggers and Mechanisms of Myocardial Infarction Study Group.
> Willich SN et al. N Engl J Med. 1993;329:1684-1690.

> 11. Triggering of acute myocardial infarction by heavy physical
> exertion: protection against triggering by regular exertion:
> Determinants of Myocardial Infarction Onset Study Investigators.
> Mittleman MA et al. N Engl J Med. 1993;329:1677-1683.

> 12. Nontraumatic sports death in high school and college athletes.
> Van Camp SP et al. Med Sci Sports Exercise. 1995;27:641-647.

> 13. Sudden death in young competitive athletes: clinical, demographic,
> and pathological profiles.
> Maron BJ et al. JAMA. 1996;276:199-204.

> 14. Sudden death in young competitive athletes: clinicopathologic
> correlations in 22 cases.
> Corrado D et al. Am J Med. 1990;89:588-596.

> 15. Cardiovascular complications during exercise training of cardiac
> patients.
> Haskell WL. Circulation. 1978;57:920-924.

> 16. Cardiovascular complications of outpatient cardiac rehabilitation
> programs.
> Van Camp SP & Peterson RA. JAMA. 1986;256:1160-1163.

> 17. Exercise-related cardiac arrest in cardiac rehabilitation: the
> Johannesburg experience.
> Digenio AG et al. S Afr Med J. 1991;79:188-191.

> ______________
> Also relevant:
> 18. Sensitivity of exercise electrocardiography for acute cardiac
> events during moderate and strenuous physical activity: the Lipid
> Research Clinics Coronary Primary Prevention Trial.
> Siscovick DS et al. Arch Intern Med. 1991;151:325-330.

In article <484358de$0$25950$6e1ede2f@read.cnntp.org>,
SUT WHO LUVED LASAGNA <lasagnayumyum@gmail.com> wrote:

> It happens that Omelet formulated :
> >>> Wait a minute, Bob didn't drop dead, he was in bed for three months and
> >>> then
> >>> passed. I talked (emailed) with his wife weekly.
> >>>
> >>> Burr
> >>
> >> "Drop dead" didn't mean instantaneously, yes, you are correct, and
> >> during that time, he continued to dig his upcoming grave deeper and
> >> deeper, in a spiritual sense. It was a pathetic spectacle to watch.
>
> > Interesting that Bob Pastorio has several hundred mourners. People sad
> > at his passing. He was always a helpful mentor to me in my cooking
> > efforts and he is missed.
>
> I miss him too, he made great lasagna.
>
> > I hope it makes you feel good that NOBODY will mourn when _you_ die. In
> > fact, there will probably be several thousand parties around the globe
> > to celebrate it.
>
> Why you offing on me?

I thought you were a Chung sockpuppet.

>
> > I'll happily post one here at my house, and supply the beer...
>
> > I think that says a lot about who was/is the better person.
>
> Do you got any of Bob's leftover lasagna?

I've made his recipe...
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

In article <48435b92$0$25951$6e1ede2f@read.cnntp.org>,
MU <musserino@gmail.com> wrote:

> After serious thinking Omelet wrote :
> >> "Drop dead" didn't mean instantaneously, yes, you are correct, and
> >> during that time, he continued to dig his upcoming grave deeper and
> >> deeper, in a spiritual sense. It was a pathetic spectacle to watch.
>
> > Interesting that Bob Pastorio has several hundred mourners. People sad
> > at his passing. He was always a helpful mentor to me in my cooking
> > efforts and he is missed.
>
> Hitler had several hundred thousand mourners, people delusional, sad at
> his passing.
>
> > I hope it makes you feel good that NOBODY will mourn when _you_ die.
>
> Oh, Little Omelet Kiddie, ....
>
> > In
> > fact, there will probably be several thousand parties around the globe
> > to celebrate it.
>
> Yes, several thousand.
>
> > I'll happily post one here at my house, and supply the beer...
>
> No you won't.
>
> > I think that says a lot about who was/is the better person.
>
> It says nothing except that you are a Little Kiddie who has too much
> Little Kiddie time to play with adults on Usenet.

That was lame. <giggles>
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

In article <484358de$0$25950$6e1ede2f@read.cnntp.org>,
SUT WHO LUVED LASAGNA <lasagnayumyum@gmail.com> wrote:

> > I hope it makes you feel good that NOBODY will mourn when _you_ die. In
> > fact, there will probably be several thousand parties around the globe
> > to celebrate it.
>
> Why you offing on me?

I was talking to MU, not you.

MU is the godless POS that pretends to be a Christian.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

"David Rollo" <drollo@cns.net.au> wrote in message
news:b459d4ca-4304-471c-8c8f-444dccb2ee8c@l28g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
A couple of comments for Zen:

Since your test was being performed for the purpose of diagnosing the
cause of chest pain, there was no point in going beyond 85% of your
age-predicted maximum heart rate (HR). Going higher (a) Does not
improve diagnostic yield, (b) Increases risk, and (c) Markedly
increases the likelihood of a false-positive test.

Most treadmill tests that are going to show a usefully-positive result
will do so well below 85%. [There’s quite a bit summarized in that
phrase ‘usefully-positive’, including the fact that even demonstrating
a genuinely abnormal response in a person with no symptoms and good
exercise capacity probably won't lead to any helpful interventional
treatment, and may well expose him/her to harm.]

Contrary to the experience of others mentioned here, I've found the
220-age rule, although empirical, and worse, linear, nevertheless has
surprising validity. It’s rare to find someone going more than 5%
above their predicted maximum when exercising to exhaustion (a form of
testing which has no place in clinical cardiology). It’s more common
to find that people are unable to continue on the treadmill while
still below this ‘maximum’.

A number of keen exercisers also seem keen to exercise at sustained HR
levels close to their predicted maximum, and may be proud of their
ability to do so. Since it’s been shown that vigorous exercise is
associated with a sudden death / heart attack rate that’s about 40x
the rate at rest, back-of-the-envelope calculation indicates that that
they would need to derive a substantial benefit from, say, 30 min/day
at high exercise levels before they would be even level-pegging with a
non-exerciser in terms of long-term benefit.

And since it’s never been shown in a randomized trial that exercise
prolongs life or prevents heart attacks, you would hope that someone
exercising at that level was getting enough out of it at the time to
justify exposure to those risks. Speaking as a cardiologist, I'm not
against exercise, but if you pay attention to the science, there’s no
medical justification for recommending (or supervising) exercise at
those high HR levels.

David Rollo
Cardiologist, Melbourne, Australia

---
Thanks, but those figures are a little depressing. I hit and often maintain
90-plus percent of my predicted max (220-age) in my workouts and enjoy it,
both during and after. Now that I've had a treadmill/nuclear stress test,
ultrasound, EKG, and have been given the all-clear, does that reduce the
possibility of a heart attack while exercising vigorously, or are there
significant problems that these tests might not reveal? (BTW, have lipid
profile within acceptable ranges and body fat around 15%.)

David Rollo wrote:
>
> >> "Since it's been shown that vigorous exercise is
> >> associated with a sudden death / heart attack rate that�s about40x
> >> the rate at rest"