Creatine notes. - Page 2

#41 11-26-2006, 06:23 AM

#42 11-26-2006, 06:23 AM

In article <Pine.LNX.4.62.0611250153100.6652@urchin.earth.li> , Tom
Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:

> This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
> while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
>
> ---910079544-1702742760-1164419625=:6652
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT
>
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2006, Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
>
> > And you have correctly assessed the problem w/ supplementing w/ ALL
> > intermediary metabolites: you bypass the body's regulatory mechanisms
> > for producing those metabolites, and are then in official Unknown Land.
>
> I find your lack of faith disturbing.

You should find his lack of knowledge disturbing.

#43 11-26-2006, 06:23 AM

jmw, if you were a figure skater, you could blow every one of your jumps,
and fudge up yer flops and have the audience believe it was a part of the
routine. You are the proverbial wiley coyote. You and your circle-jerk
buddy Brink.

You miss the point. You misconstrue, desperately, Shute's point.
You still haven't addressed the legitimate probing of the logic/illogic of
your connection of the timing of whey/glucose/creatine to the timing of
whey/glucose alone.

Now, had you said,
Look folks, *in addition* to the legion of studies on prot/carb timing
(which you didn't cite, as there seems to be some dispute), here is
*another* study, which shows that sed timing remains remains valid, even in
the presence of creatine, providing further support.... blah blah...

That would have been reasonable.
But you didn't. You said "This study.... essentially proves....."
Which is nonsensical, except to mebbe an asshole pseudo-spert like Brink,
who'd agree only if it were convenient, such as if he were shilling/whoring
for a company selling a related product.

The cites below are more relevant to your initial assertion, but do not
address the long-term issue, as you wanted to show.
There would be a number of interesting points to address from the below
cites, such as "during" vs "after", and the explanations *behind* these
supposed results--which by themselves don't make tremendous sense, but then
that doesn't mean they are wrong either.

Suspend the animosity for a moment, and give your assessment on WHY you
think the two cites below make sense, or more illuminating details on the
articles.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"JMW" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote in message
news:fjjfm2dgu2q4n8hoheavlhqn1bp9v0j8lh@4ax.com...
> Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:42:28 -0500, JMW
>><jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Interesting the increased benefits with sugar. Maybe this is what
>>>>screws up John's proof that whey is helped by it.
>>>
>>>But that, in turn, would invalidate dipshit's assertion that the
>>>benefit was *because* of the creatine. You probably didn't think
>>>about that when you wrote that comment in an attempt to suck up to
>>>him. Bad move, Shite.
>>
>>How does that invalidate it? If creatine has increased benefits by
>>adding sugar during ingestion. And if your proof is a whey/creatine
>>combo. Then how do you know adding sugar effects the whey at all?
>
> Because it's been recognized in multiple studies:
>
> "These findings indicate that the combined effect on net muscle
> protein synthesis of carbohydrate and amino acids given together after
> resistance exercise is roughly equivalent to the sum of the
> independent effects of either given alone." Miller SL, Tipton KD,
> Chinkes DL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR. Independent and combined effects of
> amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise. Med Sci Sports
> Exerc. 2003 Mar;35(3):449-55.
>
>
> "These data demonstrate that not only does CHO and EAA ingestion
> during the exercise bout suppress exercise-induced cortisol
> release; the stimulatory effect of resistance exercise on myofibrillar
> protein degradation can be attenuated, most dramatically when the
> treatments are combined (CHO + EAA)." Bird SP, Tarpenning KM, Marino
> FE. Liquid carbohydrate/essential amino acid ingestion during a
> short-term bout of resistance exercise suppresses myofibrillar protein
> degradation. Metabolism. 2006 May;55(5):570-7.
>

#44 11-26-2006, 06:24 AM

In article <Xt1ah.13160$ZM.3178@newsfe11.lga>, "Proctologically
Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:

> jmw, if you were a figure skater, you could blow every one of your jumps,
> and fudge up yer flops and have the audience believe it was a part of the
> routine. You are the proverbial wiley coyote. You and your circle-jerk
> buddy Brink.

Ah, so anyone who actually wants you to support your stupid ass comments
must be in a circle jerk with JMW. Your debating skills are pitiful.
You're a scientist wanna be who gets pissed when he's called out.

#45 11-26-2006, 06:24 AM

willbrink@comcast.net (Will Brink) wrote:

>In article <Xt1ah.13160$ZM.3178@newsfe11.lga>, "Proctologically
>Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>
>> jmw, if you were a figure skater, you could blow every one of your jumps,
>> and fudge up yer flops and have the audience believe it was a part of the
>> routine. You are the proverbial wiley coyote. You and your circle-jerk
>> buddy Brink.
>
>Ah, so anyone who actually wants you to support your stupid ass comments
>must be in a circle jerk with JMW. Your debating skills are pitiful.
>You're a scientist wanna be who gets pissed when he's called out.

Indeed. The funny thing is that someone else has been making
oh-so-subtle comments to the same effect which fly right over his
head.

#46 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

Circle jerking must be real fun, cuz you fagits *still* won't address the
points.

Oh, I get it--
When asked to *explain* sumpn, you come up empty-handed--well, except for
some body-fluid.
When you get a chance to thump your chest, and throw out abstracts (which
you don't understand or are irrelevant), well, then it's party-time.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"JMW" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote in message
news:7m9im21k4vpmtn6tndj8pqtvpe1en10lfc@4ax.com...
> willbrink@comcast.net (Will Brink) wrote:
>
>>In article <Xt1ah.13160$ZM.3178@newsfe11.lga>, "Proctologically
>>Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>>
>>> jmw, if you were a figure skater, you could blow every one of your
>>> jumps,
>>> and fudge up yer flops and have the audience believe it was a part of
>>> the
>>> routine. You are the proverbial wiley coyote. You and your circle-jerk
>>> buddy Brink.
>>
>>Ah, so anyone who actually wants you to support your stupid ass comments
>>must be in a circle jerk with JMW. Your debating skills are pitiful.
>>You're a scientist wanna be who gets pissed when he's called out.
>
> Indeed. The funny thing is that someone else has been making
> oh-so-subtle comments to the same effect which fly right over his
> head.
>

#47 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

In article <7m9im21k4vpmtn6tndj8pqtvpe1en10lfc@4ax.com>, JMW
<jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote:

> willbrink@comcast.net (Will Brink) wrote:
>
> >In article <Xt1ah.13160$ZM.3178@newsfe11.lga>, "Proctologically
> >Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
> >
> >> jmw, if you were a figure skater, you could blow every one of your jumps,
> >> and fudge up yer flops and have the audience believe it was a part of the
> >> routine. You are the proverbial wiley coyote. You and your circle-jerk
> >> buddy Brink.
> >
> >Ah, so anyone who actually wants you to support your stupid ass comments
> >must be in a circle jerk with JMW. Your debating skills are pitiful.
> >You're a scientist wanna be who gets pissed when he's called out.
>
> Indeed. The funny thing is that someone else has been making
> oh-so-subtle comments to the same effect which fly right over his
> head.

He's angry he does not understand what is being said and takes it out on
others in the form of homo erotic insults. Sad really.

#48 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

In article <w8cah.1703$Eo3.1471@newsfe09.lga>, "Proctologically
Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:

> Circle jerking must be real fun, cuz you fagits *still* won't address the
> points.

Let's see, you use the name Proctologically Violated and ask for
homosexual favors when asked to support your statements, and we are the
"fagits." I see logic is not your strong point, but we can add that to
sceince as not a strong point either. Keep up the good work sparky.

#49 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

<MMMmmmmmmm> <MMMMmmmmmm> <gulp> <aaaahhhh>

Oh, sorry, I see yer too busy to discuss any real points--
Sorry, go back to what you and jmw were doing.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:willbrink-2611060958000001@192.168.2.156...
> In article <w8cah.1703$Eo3.1471@newsfe09.lga>, "Proctologically
> Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>
>> Circle jerking must be real fun, cuz you fagits *still* won't address the
>> points.
>
> Let's see, you use the name Proctologically Violated and ask for
> homosexual favors when asked to support your statements, and we are the
> "fagits." I see logic is not your strong point, but we can add that to
> sceince as not a strong point either. Keep up the good work sparky.
>

#50 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

In article <vhjah.99$5p.79@newsfe11.lga>, "Proctologically Violated©®"
<entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:

> <MMMmmmmmmm> <MMMMmmmmmm> <gulp> <aaaahhhh>
>
> Oh, sorry, I see yer too busy to discuss any real points--
> Sorry, go back to what you and jmw were doing.

Anonymous coward says what? It's clear the points made are above your
educational level and brain power, thus we are left with your homosexual
fantasies of ³suck my di&%² and other useful ³on topic² responses. You
made claims, I asked for support, you ran off like the anonymous coward
you are and threw insults. If you want get back on topic, start by posting
those studies I asked for or shut your worthless pie hole.

#51 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

You dumb fuck.

**My original post ALREADY CONTAINED A LINK, with a litany of side
effects**, by a researcher who not only advocates its use, he gives a
prescription for its use, AND current prices (1998)!
You dumb fuck.

Why do you think I posted the link, you dumb fuck?

See, here's the difference between usenet scholars and usenet assholes:

Tom Anderson, for example, made crystal-clear clarifications and
contributions to the topic. As do others elsewhere.
You, and your bitch jmw, pound your chests, clench-jawed DETERMINED that YOU
will be correct, and the other muthafucka will be wrong.
And when it don't look so good for you or your bitch, then it is *you
fagits* that start the name calling, and eventually run away.
But in the meantime, you aggessively *hound the fuck* out of other people,
even when you, and your bitch, are DEAD WRONG.
(and, you and your ignerint ilk were wrong about the protein thing, which
earnt me IOM a few years ago.)

Most people who advocate creatine acknowledge the more minor side effects.
I'll get around to posting another citation of even more serious side
effects, among younger men.
You dumb sanctimonious hypocritical fuck.
Go back to sucking Vince McMahon's dick (muscle&fitness publisher/pill
pusher).
Make sure you swallow, as there is some evidence for semen being fairly good
brain food.

<MMMmmmmmmm> <MMMMmmmmmm> <BIG GULP> <aaaahhhh>
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:willbrink-2611061301530001@192.168.2.156...
> In article <vhjah.99$5p.79@newsfe11.lga>, "Proctologically Violated©®"
> <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>
>> <MMMmmmmmmm> <MMMMmmmmmm> <gulp> <aaaahhhh>
>>
>> Oh, sorry, I see yer too busy to discuss any real points--
>> Sorry, go back to what you and jmw were doing.
>
> Anonymous coward says what? It's clear the points made are above your
> educational level and brain power, thus we are left with your homosexual
> fantasies of ³suck my di&%² and other useful ³on topic² responses. You
> made claims, I asked for support, you ran off like the anonymous coward
> you are and threw insults. If you want get back on topic, start by posting
> those studies I asked for or shut your worthless pie hole.
>

#52 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

In article <uonah.3552$rc3.2398@newsfe08.lga>, "Proctologically
Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:

> You dumb fuck.
>
> **My original post ALREADY CONTAINED A LINK,

Yes, a worthless link as already explained to you. Geez you are stupid. I
said published study, not sales site. The URL you posted was this:

http://www.anabolicsecrets.com/hypergaincreatine.htm

It's a sales site moron.

> with a litany of side
> effects**,

I can't tell if you actually think this rant will get you off the hook
some how or not, but it will not.

> by a researcher who not only advocates its use, he gives a
> prescription for its use, AND current prices (1998)!
> You dumb fuck.

Tranlated, you are so without a clue you can't tell the difference between
a sales site and published studies. The second URL you posted was:

sportsci.org/traintech/creatine/rbk.html

A review from *1998* by Dr Kreider. I have spoken at some of the same
conferences he has. I know Dr Kreider. Do you? Didn't think so. Did you
bother to actually read this outdated review? Didn't think so. He states

"Before discussing these possible side effects, it should be noted that
they emanate from unsubstantiated anecdotal reports and may be unrelated
to creatine supplementation"

and:

"In addition, I am not aware of any significant medical complications that
have been linked to creatine supplementation."

etc, etc.
Being almost 10 years has passed, and lots of data now exists on long term
and short term safety, we now know the answer to your stupid ass
assertions. If you had asked like a nice little retard for a more up to
date study, I would have supplied it. If you asked Dr. Kreider now in 2006
what he thinks (as I have) he would tell you the same thing.

Retarded rant snipped.

One more time, real slow for you: supply a published study showing side
effects in healthy people using creatine. Hint, there were none in Dr
Kreider's review, but your lack of knowledge and education in this area is
clear.

You are over your head and way out of your league in this conversation and
apparently to mentally challenged to slink away. Perhaps ask me for more
homosexual favors? Bwa ha ha ha.

#53 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

Will Brink wrote:
[...]

> <snip> I know Dr Kreider. Do you?

Sure. Doesn't everyone? Heck, we golf together. In fact, Doc Kreider
was at Emmy's last Ohio Bash.

SHUTE! HEY, SHUTE! REMEMBER DOCTOR K AND HIS CRAZY ACCORDIAN?

Damn, that guy just *kills* on the accordian.

[...]

God, I love a killfile.

Oops.

(waves at Cohen)

> <snip> If you had asked like a nice little retard <snip>
> Retarded rant snipped.
>
> One more time, real slow for you: <snip>

Man, Will. What's your deal with mental retardation? For shame!

> You are over your head and way out of your
> league in this conversation and apparently
> to mentally challenged

*Too* mentally cha... never mind.

> to slink away.

I wonder what books are on Brink's bookshelf.

Probably would've enjoyed that list more than his frigging apology.
Meh.

--
Curt

#54 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

Will Brink wrote:
[...]

> He's angry he does not understand what is being
> said and takes it out on others in the form of
> homo erotic insults.

Not that I care especially, but I'm pretty sure that homoerotic is one
word, Brink.

And, hey, if you and J Dub got PV all figgered out then perhaps you
could tell me what Dub's angry about:

http://www.rustyiron.net/trollist.htm
http://www.rustyiron.net/curtpics.htm
http://www.rustyiron.net/curt_wts.htm
http://www.rustyiron.net/curtinfl.jpg
http://www.rustyiron.net/curt_rab.htm
http://www.rustyiron.net/trollz.htm and the corresponding posts/threads

http://groups.google.com/group/misc....c6f6b8db7a673a

http://groups.google.com/group/misc....ae5749d27416d4

http://groups.google.com/group/misc....b4e8673b4bc4ee

http://groups.google.com/group/misc....b4fd7b08ad73d8

Plus other Curt-obsessed posts including the blah blah blah one. See:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...W/animcurt.gif

I won't bother posting links to his, what I would call failed, attempts
at soliciting like minds by cross-posting to other newsgroups. But,
yeah, there's that, too. Pissy, pissy, pissy.

> Sad really.

Aw, cheer up.

--
Curt

#55 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

Adverse Effects
Creatine supplementation often causes weight gain that can be mistaken for
increase in muscle mass. Increasing intracellular creatine may cause an
osmotic influx of water into the cell because creatine is an osmotically
active substance [10]. It is possible that the weight gained is water
retention and not increased muscle. The retention of water may be connected
to reports of muscle cramps, dehydration, and heat intolerance when taking
creatine supplements. It would be prudent to encourage proper hydration for
creatine users. Further research is needed to investigate these and other
possible side effects.

Creatine is classified as a "dietary supplement" under the 1994 Dietary
Supplement Health and Education Act and is available without a prescription.
Creatine is not subjected to FDA testing, and the purity and hygienic
condition of commercial creatine products may be questionable [21]. A 1998
FDA report lists 32 adverse creatine-associated events that had been
reported to FDA. These include seizure, vomiting, diarrhea, anxiety,
myopathy, cardiac arrhythmia, deep vein thromboses and death. However, there
is no certainty that a reported adverse event can be attributed to a
particular product [22]. A recent survey of 28 male baseball players and 24
male football players, ages 18 to 23, found that 16 (31%) experienced
diarrhea, 13 (25%) experienced muscle cramps, 7 (13%) reported unwanted
weight gain, 7 (13%) reported dehydration, and 12 reported various other
adverse effects [23].

21 Sorgen C. Creatine supplementation: The quest for power performance.
Today's Dietitian (1)3:26-29, 1999.
22. FDA Special Nutritionals Adverse Event Monitoring System. Accessed June
7, 1999.
23. Juhn MS and others. Oral creatine supplementation in male collegiate
athletes: A survey of dosing habits and side effects. Journal of the
American Dietetic Association 99:593-594, 1999
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:willbrink-2611061811390001@192.168.2.156...
> In article <uonah.3552$rc3.2398@newsfe08.lga>, "Proctologically
> Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>
>> You dumb fuck.
>>
>> **My original post ALREADY CONTAINED A LINK,
>
> Yes, a worthless link as already explained to you. Geez you are stupid. I
> said published study, not sales site. The URL you posted was this:
>
>
> http://www.anabolicsecrets.com/hypergaincreatine.htm
>
> It's a sales site moron.
>
>> with a litany of side
>> effects**,
>
> I can't tell if you actually think this rant will get you off the hook
> some how or not, but it will not.
>
>> by a researcher who not only advocates its use, he gives a
>> prescription for its use, AND current prices (1998)!
>> You dumb fuck.
>
> Tranlated, you are so without a clue you can't tell the difference between
> a sales site and published studies. The second URL you posted was:
>
> sportsci.org/traintech/creatine/rbk.html
>
> A review from *1998* by Dr Kreider. I have spoken at some of the same
> conferences he has. I know Dr Kreider. Do you? Didn't think so. Did you
> bother to actually read this outdated review? Didn't think so. He states
>
> "Before discussing these possible side effects, it should be noted that
> they emanate from unsubstantiated anecdotal reports and may be unrelated
> to creatine supplementation"
>
> and:
>
> "In addition, I am not aware of any significant medical complications that
> have been linked to creatine supplementation."
>
> etc, etc.
> Being almost 10 years has passed, and lots of data now exists on long term
> and short term safety, we now know the answer to your stupid ass
> assertions. If you had asked like a nice little retard for a more up to
> date study, I would have supplied it. If you asked Dr. Kreider now in 2006
> what he thinks (as I have) he would tell you the same thing.
>
>
> Retarded rant snipped.
>
> One more time, real slow for you: supply a published study showing side
> effects in healthy people using creatine. Hint, there were none in Dr
> Kreider's review, but your lack of knowledge and education in this area is
> clear.
>
> You are over your head and way out of your league in this conversation and
> apparently to mentally challenged to slink away. Perhaps ask me for more
> homosexual favors? Bwa ha ha ha.
>

#56 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

Two words: Vested interests.
Or, two more: hidden agendas.
Which can be emotional/psychological, cultural, financial, etc.

Unless you have a good understanding of what a cocksucker's hidden agenda
is, you are essentially dealing w/ a loose, uncontrollable cannon,
impervious to rational argument.

And sometimes they can even be correct! But not often. Their autopilot
inevitably fails.

Mini-dick brinks thinks I'm lambasting his precious fukn creatine.
I just axed a Q.
There are side effects, like everything else. Clearly not major for most,
but then mebbe so, for some.
Brinks sez there are **none**. He's a chemically illiterate blustering
asshole.

Hey Curt, how comes YOU dint catch jmw's mis-use of "conversely"?? I'm
soooo disappointed....

And how comes Genius Brinks didn't catch jmw's logical faux pas,
whey/gluc/creatine proving prot/carb??
Oh, silly me.... there they go, 69'g again.

<MMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm> <MMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmm
<TWO BIG GULPS, this time> <aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh>
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Curt" <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1164585592.269757.147690@l12g2000cwl.googlegr oups.com...
> Will Brink wrote:
> [...]
>
>> He's angry he does not understand what is being
>> said and takes it out on others in the form of
>> homo erotic insults.
>
> Not that I care especially, but I'm pretty sure that homoerotic is one
> word, Brink.
>
> And, hey, if you and J Dub got PV all figgered out then perhaps you
> could tell me what Dub's angry about:
>
> http://www.rustyiron.net/trollist.htm
> http://www.rustyiron.net/curtpics.htm
> http://www.rustyiron.net/curt_wts.htm
> http://www.rustyiron.net/curtinfl.jpg
> http://www.rustyiron.net/curt_rab.htm
> http://www.rustyiron.net/trollz.htm and the corresponding posts/threads
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/misc....c6f6b8db7a673a
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/misc....ae5749d27416d4
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/misc....b4e8673b4bc4ee
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/misc....b4fd7b08ad73d8
>
>
> Plus other Curt-obsessed posts including the blah blah blah one. See:
> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...W/animcurt.gif
>
> I won't bother posting links to his, what I would call failed, attempts
> at soliciting like minds by cross-posting to other newsgroups. But,
> yeah, there's that, too. Pissy, pissy, pissy.
>
>> Sad really.
>
> Aw, cheer up.
>
> --
> Curt
>
>

#57 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

Oh yeah, I've talked to numerous people w/ side effect from creatine.
Minor, but enough they don't take it. It's all risk reward, as I think even
brink accidentally observed once.
Now he's saying there is no risk at all.
Sheeit, *anything* makes me cramp, ahm not stickin around for some
rationalized asshole to tell me to ignore it, it's safe.
Brinks/jmw make me cramp.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote in
message news:F3qah.3563$rc3.990@newsfe08.lga...
> Adverse Effects
> Creatine supplementation often causes weight gain that can be mistaken for
> increase in muscle mass. Increasing intracellular creatine may cause an
> osmotic influx of water into the cell because creatine is an osmotically
> active substance [10]. It is possible that the weight gained is water
> retention and not increased muscle. The retention of water may be
> connected to reports of muscle cramps, dehydration, and heat intolerance
> when taking creatine supplements. It would be prudent to encourage proper
> hydration for creatine users. Further research is needed to investigate
> these and other possible side effects.
>
> Creatine is classified as a "dietary supplement" under the 1994 Dietary
> Supplement Health and Education Act and is available without a
> prescription. Creatine is not subjected to FDA testing, and the purity and
> hygienic condition of commercial creatine products may be questionable
> [21]. A 1998 FDA report lists 32 adverse creatine-associated events that
> had been reported to FDA. These include seizure, vomiting, diarrhea,
> anxiety, myopathy, cardiac arrhythmia, deep vein thromboses and death.
> However, there is no certainty that a reported adverse event can be
> attributed to a particular product [22]. A recent survey of 28 male
> baseball players and 24 male football players, ages 18 to 23, found that
> 16 (31%) experienced diarrhea, 13 (25%) experienced muscle cramps, 7 (13%)
> reported unwanted weight gain, 7 (13%) reported dehydration, and 12
> reported various other adverse effects [23].
>
>
>
> 21 Sorgen C. Creatine supplementation: The quest for power performance.
> Today's Dietitian (1)3:26-29, 1999.
> 22. FDA Special Nutritionals Adverse Event Monitoring System. Accessed
> June 7, 1999.
> 23. Juhn MS and others. Oral creatine supplementation in male collegiate
> athletes: A survey of dosing habits and side effects. Journal of the
> American Dietetic Association 99:593-594, 1999
> --
> ------
> Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
>
> Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
> Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
> Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
> to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
> The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!
>
> entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
> all d'numbuhs
>
> "Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:willbrink-2611061811390001@192.168.2.156...
>> In article <uonah.3552$rc3.2398@newsfe08.lga>, "Proctologically
>> Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>>
>>> You dumb fuck.
>>>
>>> **My original post ALREADY CONTAINED A LINK,
>>
>> Yes, a worthless link as already explained to you. Geez you are stupid. I
>> said published study, not sales site. The URL you posted was this:
>>
>>
>> http://www.anabolicsecrets.com/hypergaincreatine.htm
>>
>> It's a sales site moron.
>>
>>> with a litany of side
>>> effects**,
>>
>> I can't tell if you actually think this rant will get you off the hook
>> some how or not, but it will not.
>>
>>> by a researcher who not only advocates its use, he gives a
>>> prescription for its use, AND current prices (1998)!
>>> You dumb fuck.
>>
>> Tranlated, you are so without a clue you can't tell the difference
>> between
>> a sales site and published studies. The second URL you posted was:
>>
>> sportsci.org/traintech/creatine/rbk.html
>>
>> A review from *1998* by Dr Kreider. I have spoken at some of the same
>> conferences he has. I know Dr Kreider. Do you? Didn't think so. Did you
>> bother to actually read this outdated review? Didn't think so. He states
>>
>> "Before discussing these possible side effects, it should be noted that
>> they emanate from unsubstantiated anecdotal reports and may be unrelated
>> to creatine supplementation"
>>
>> and:
>>
>> "In addition, I am not aware of any significant medical complications
>> that
>> have been linked to creatine supplementation."
>>
>> etc, etc.
>> Being almost 10 years has passed, and lots of data now exists on long
>> term
>> and short term safety, we now know the answer to your stupid ass
>> assertions. If you had asked like a nice little retard for a more up to
>> date study, I would have supplied it. If you asked Dr. Kreider now in
>> 2006
>> what he thinks (as I have) he would tell you the same thing.
>>
>>
>> Retarded rant snipped.
>>
>> One more time, real slow for you: supply a published study showing side
>> effects in healthy people using creatine. Hint, there were none in Dr
>> Kreider's review, but your lack of knowledge and education in this area
>> is
>> clear.
>>
>> You are over your head and way out of your league in this conversation
>> and
>> apparently to mentally challenged to slink away. Perhaps ask me for more
>> homosexual favors? Bwa ha ha ha.
>>
>
>
>
>

#58 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
[...]

> Hey Curt, how comes YOU dint catch jmw's mis-
> use of "conversely"?? I'm soooo disappointed....

Ha! I'm sure you are.

Seriously, I honestly don't read every word that Williams types. I saw
you mention the alleged error previously and am half tempted to look
for it, but it's not really a big deal for me. I agree with you if you
say he can be a jerk. No doubt.

HEY, JOHN! YOU CAN REALLY BE A JERK!

Hey, you see movies in Yonkers? Paula Patton is gorgeous. Just saw Deja
Vu last night with her and Denzel Washington starring. Great story and
a surprising ending. Enjoyable.

Anyway.

> Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

--
Curt

#59 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

In article <F3qah.3563$rc3.990@newsfe08.lga>, "Proctologically Violated©®"
<entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:

Finally, you at least made an attempt to supply some real info.

> Adverse Effects
> Creatine supplementation often causes weight gain that can be mistaken for
> increase in muscle mass. Increasing intracellular creatine may cause an
> osmotic influx of water into the cell because creatine is an osmotically
> active substance [10]. It is possible that the weight gained is water
> retention and not increased muscle.

It's both. Agaain, this is an older study. Intra cellular water (which is
an anabolic stimulus BTW) followed by increased LBM, is what is found in
newer research.

> The retention of water may be connected
> to reports of muscle cramps, dehydration, and heat intolerance when taking
> creatine supplements.

Again, all proven to be wrong by later studies. In fact, the latest
studies find creatine decreases cramping, NOT increases it. Studies found
no negative effects on heat tolerance or hydration either.

> It would be prudent to encourage proper hydration for
> creatine users. Further research is needed to investigate these and other
> possible side effects.

And further research was conducted and found the above advice not valid.
The FDA info is totally worthles BTW and of no scientific value.

As you at least posted some actual info requested of you and didn't
flame, I have also kept it to the issue and didn't flame in turn,

#60 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

In article <geqah.3564$rc3.3353@newsfe08.lga>, "Proctologically
Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:

> Two words: Vested interests.

Like the web site you posted as support for the ills of creatine?

> Or, two more: hidden agendas.
> Which can be emotional/psychological, cultural, financial, etc.

Yet more topics you don't have a clue about. Great!

>
> Unless you have a good understanding of what a cocksucker's hidden agenda
> is, you are essentially dealing w/ a loose, uncontrollable cannon,
> impervious to rational argument.

Best you can do sparky? Try harder.

>
> And sometimes they can even be correct! But not often. Their autopilot
> inevitably fails.
>
> Mini-dick brinks thinks I'm lambasting his precious fukn creatine.
> I just axed a Q.

No you didn't. You posted comments and made statements that were (1) wrong
and (2) not supported by the research. You were held accountable for your
statements and you went into a hissy fit about it.

> There are side effects, like everything else. Clearly not major for most,
> but then mebbe so, for some.

Post the data or shut whole in center of face.

> Brinks sez there are **none**. He's a chemically illiterate blustering
> asshole.

an asshole Who has been published in journals on the very topic we are
talking about, knows most of the creatine researchers personally, Has been
a consultant to the worlds top creaatine producer, and has forgotten more
on the topic then some snot nosed kid like you will ever know about the
topic. An asshole? Sure, but an asshole that is light years above you when
it comes to the topic of creatine.

>
> Hey Curt, how comes YOU dint catch jmw's mis-use of "conversely"?? I'm
> soooo disappointed....

Awwww, aint that cute. You are trying to pull Curt into this as you aint
got the nads or the brains to take me on.

#61 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

In article <Bhqah.3565$rc3.2690@newsfe08.lga>, "Proctologically
Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:

> Oh yeah, I've talked to numerous people w/ side effect from creatine.

No one cares who you talk to.

> Minor, but enough they don't take it. It's all risk reward, as I think even
> brink accidentally observed once.

Risk to benefit ratio f-tard. Try a biostats course some time.

> Now he's saying there is no risk at all.
> Sheeit, *anything* makes me cramp,

Creatine was found to DECREASE cramping pin head.

>ahm not stickin around for some
> rationalized asshole to tell me to ignore it, it's safe.
> Brinks/jmw make me cramp.

Walking and chewing gum at the same time makes you cramp.

#62 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

Will Brink wrote:
[...]

> Awwww, aint that cute. You are trying to pull
> Curt into this as you aint got the nads or the
> brains to take me on.

And there it is. Brink killfiled me, why? Because I have nads and
brains. Mystery solved. ;o)

--
Curt

#63 11-27-2006, 03:43 AM

willbrink@comcast.net (Will Brink) wrote:

>In article <geqah.3564$rc3.3353@newsfe08.lga>, "Proctologically
>Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hey Curt, how comes YOU dint catch jmw's mis-use of "conversely"?? I'm
>> soooo disappointed....

>
>Awwww, aint that cute. You are trying to pull Curt into this as you aint
>got the nads or the brains to take me on.

"A horse! a horse! my kingdom for a horse!"

#64 11-27-2006, 05:41 PM

"Will Brink" <willbrink@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:willbrink-2611062013230001@192.168.2.156...
> In article <geqah.3564$rc3.3353@newsfe08.lga>, "Proctologically
> Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>
>> Two words: Vested interests.
>
> Like the web site you posted as support for the ills of creatine?
>
>> Or, two more: hidden agendas.
>> Which can be emotional/psychological, cultural, financial, etc.
>
> Yet more topics you don't have a clue about. Great!
>
>>
>> Unless you have a good understanding of what a cocksucker's hidden agenda
>> is, you are essentially dealing w/ a loose, uncontrollable cannon,
>> impervious to rational argument.
>
> Best you can do sparky? Try harder.
>
>>
>> And sometimes they can even be correct! But not often. Their autopilot
>> inevitably fails.
>>
>> Mini-dick brinks thinks I'm lambasting his precious fukn creatine.
>> I just axed a Q.
>
> No you didn't. You posted comments and made statements that were (1) wrong
> and (2) not supported by the research. You were held accountable for your
> statements and you went into a hissy fit about it.
>
>
>> There are side effects, like everything else. Clearly not major for
>> most,
>> but then mebbe so, for some.
>
> Post the data or shut whole in center of face.
>
>> Brinks sez there are **none**. He's a chemically illiterate blustering
>> asshole.
>
> an asshole Who has been published in journals on the very topic we are
> talking about, knows most of the creatine researchers personally, Has been
> a consultant to the worlds top creaatine producer,

Which splains a whole lot, now, dudnit?

And just what do they consult you for? Really, would like to know.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

and has forgotten more
> on the topic then some snot nosed kid like you will ever know about the
> topic. An asshole? Sure, but an asshole that is light years above you when
> it comes to the topic of creatine.
>
>>
>> Hey Curt, how comes YOU dint catch jmw's mis-use of "conversely"?? I'm
>> soooo disappointed....

>
>
> Awwww, aint that cute. You are trying to pull Curt into this as you aint
> got the nads or the brains to take me on.
>

#65 11-27-2006, 05:41 PM

Well, dats certainly convenient:
The FDA cites X number of events, the FDA is shit, so dats dat.

The later cites in that article seem to imply the whole goddamm team that
supplemented w/ creatine had some adverse reaction! Is that ignorable, as
well??
What, creatine in 2006 is made better than in 1998?

And this is just ONE cite I found, while not even looking for adverse
effects. I was looking for something on kinetics, which tom Anderson
clarified. No hissy fit btw, another invention of yours.

You don't think I'll find another 100-500 like it, from 1998 thru 2006?
Dollars to donuts I could, but I won't, cuz basically it's just not that
interesting, and is already a fait d'compleat (hey curt, izzat right??).
You don't understand the implication of fooling w/ intermediary metabolites,
which anyone familiar w/ the various metabolic pathways would appreciate.
You should take a stab at them.

To me, the strategy w/ creatine is clear:
Competitive lifters have no choice BUT to use it, because basically everyone
else is using it for the little edge it provides, and shit, 5 lbs can make
the difference between winning and losing.
If I were a competitive lifter, I would certainly use it.

But for recreational lifters, people training just for health purposes, or
fun, what's the point?
None, really. Risk/reward mushrooms, as reward goes close to zero. Yeah,
brink, risk/reward.

There are other issues, as well.
One is the pumping of grams upon grams upon grams of a substance that is
normally provided in milligrams, via the diet.
Your man Kreider states, and I've had this confirmed, that the kidney then
dumps "raw creatine" into the urine, when, from what I currently understand,
the kidney is designed to excrete mainly creatinine, the cyclized form.
My understanding is that creatine in urine sends red flags to the techs--it
should be on the order of a *few %* of what the creatinine content is.
But now the kidney is just dumping creatine like mad.
When the kidney dumps anything it's not sposed