Deadlift by Pavel

Hello,

I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started deadlifting.
He has
some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what others
think of
them.

1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar. Instead, keep your eyes on
the ceiling.
2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
and muscle build up.

I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
wondered if others
do it this way.

Regards,
Eric

In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com,
ee <ekurth@broadcom.com> typed:
> Hello,
>
> I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started deadlifting.
> He has
> some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what others
> think of
> them.
>
> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.

You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is even. If
he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as long as
you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although best not to
try and look at the honey behind you!].

> Instead, keep your eyes on
> the ceiling.
> 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.

What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?

> 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
> and muscle build up.

WTF is muscle build up?

>
> I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
> wondered if others
> do it this way.
>
> Regards,
> Eric



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

Bully wrote:
> In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com,
> ee <ekurth@broadcom.com> typed:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started deadlifting.
> > He has
> > some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what others
> > think of
> > them.
> >
> > 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>
> You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is even. If
> he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as long as
> you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although best not to
> try and look at the honey behind you!].
>
> > Instead, keep your eyes on
> > the ceiling.
> > 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>
> What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?
>
> > 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
> > and muscle build up.
>
> WTF is muscle build up?
>
> >
> > I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
> > wondered if others
> > do it this way.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eric
>
>
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

Thanks for the response, Bully.

Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
wind up
not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal. But your
suggestion to look down and get centered is a lot more natural.

He suggests standing between each rep so that your back doesn't tire
quicker than anything else.

The negative of the rep is often thought to add muscle bulk. Pavel's
not so much into that. The wiry guys who weight a buck-fifty and pull
600 pounds in a deadlift are the people he respects the most.

Eric

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, ee wrote:

> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar. Instead, keep your eyes on
> the ceiling.

Do KBers do special optic nerve-lengthening exercises to allow them to do
this?

> 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.

I've heard of people doing sets as sequences of singles before - i guess
this is that. Presumably, it shifts the exercise to work more like
singles, focusing more on limit strength and less on endurance or
mass-building.

> 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury and
> muscle build up.

Avoiding muscle build up is a pretty unorthodox goal for deadlifts. That
crazy Russian!

tom

--
One of the principal objects of theoretical research in my department
of knowledge is to find the point of view from which the subject appears
in its greatest simplicity. -- Josiah Willard Gibbs

In article <Pine.LNX.4.62.0701191742040.21070@urchin.earth.li >,
Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, ee wrote:
>
> > 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar. Instead, keep your eyes on
> > the ceiling.
>
> Do KBers do special optic nerve-lengthening exercises to allow them to do
> this?

Actually there is little need to look down if you have positioned
yourself properly. But I think his idea is to keep the back flat through
proper head positioning.
>
> > 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>
> I've heard of people doing sets as sequences of singles before - i guess
> this is that. Presumably, it shifts the exercise to work more like
> singles, focusing more on limit strength and less on endurance or
> mass-building.

Hmmm. Yeah.
>
> > 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury and
> > muscle build up.
>
> Avoiding muscle build up is a pretty unorthodox goal for deadlifts. That
> crazy Russian!

Not to mention that putting weight down quickly will get you thrown out
of some gyms.

--
Keith

"ee" <ekurth@broadcom.com> wrote in message
news:1169229407.349837.305440@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
>
> Bully wrote:
>> In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com,
>> ee <ekurth@broadcom.com> typed:
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started deadlifting.
>> > He has
>> > some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what others
>> > think of
>> > them.
>> >
>> > 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>>
>> You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is even.
>> If
>> he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as long
>> as
>> you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although best not
>> to
>> try and look at the honey behind you!].
>>
>> > Instead, keep your eyes on
>> > the ceiling.
>> > 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>>
>> What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?
>>
>> > 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
>> > and muscle build up.
>>
>> WTF is muscle build up?
>>
>> >
>> > I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
>> > wondered if others
>> > do it this way.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bully
>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>
>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
>> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>
> Thanks for the response, Bully.
>
> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
> wind up
> not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.

That's just nuts. The other two rules you've cited are silly, IMHO, but the
idea that it doesn't matter if your grip is uneven on a deadlift is just
nuts.

ep

"ee" <ekurth@broadcom.com> schreef:

> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
> wind up not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.

Excuse me?

> But your suggestion to look down and get centered is a lot more natural.

I would say.

Funny how that works, eh?

> He suggests standing between each rep so that your back doesn't tire
> quicker than anything else.

> The negative of the rep is often thought to add muscle bulk. Pavel's
> not so much into that. The wiry guys who weight a buck-fifty and pull
> 600 pounds in a deadlift are the people he respects the most.

Tyrone, the big black dude who is 320 pounds, who got a 30 year sentence,
also admires skinny white guys.

At least, those are the rumours.

--
Pete, The New & Improved Version

"Take your own advice: killfile. I took your advice on that subject BTW.
Your turn dude" -- Will Brink

"Problem is, I still see his/their posts 'cause
you respond to them, and that throws the balance of the universe of" -- Will
Brink

In news:1169229407.349837.305440@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com,
ee <ekurth@broadcom.com> typed:
> Bully wrote:
>> In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com,
>> ee <ekurth@broadcom.com> typed:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started
>>> deadlifting. He has
>>> some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what
>>> others think of
>>> them.
>>>
>>> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>>
>> You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is
>> even. If he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is
>> correct & as long as you keep your head up, you can look whereever
>> you like [although best not to try and look at the honey behind
>> you!].
>>
>>> Instead, keep your eyes on
>>> the ceiling.
>>> 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>>
>> What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?
>>
>>> 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
>>> and muscle build up.
>>
>> WTF is muscle build up?
>>
>>>
>>> I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
>>> wondered if others
>>> do it this way.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bully
>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>
>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
>> sees
>> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>
> Thanks for the response, Bully.
>
> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
> wind up
> not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.

Well, yes it is.

> But your
> suggestion to look down and get centered is a lot more natural.
>
> He suggests standing between each rep so that your back doesn't tire
> quicker than anything else.

It's a back exercise, right? So isn't the intention to work your back more
than anything else?

>
> The negative of the rep is often thought to add muscle bulk. Pavel's
> not so much into that. The wiry guys who weight a buck-fifty and pull
> 600 pounds in a deadlift are the people he respects the most.

Please name names!

>
> Eric



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, ee wrote:

>> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar. Instead, keep your eyes on
>> the ceiling.

> Do KBers do special optic nerve-lengthening exercises to allow them to do
> this?

You could always tie bits of string or tape on the bar, so you could
feel instead of looking. If accuracy matters than that method would be
more accurate than looking, because you could do it by measurement.

>> 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.

> I've heard of people doing sets as sequences of singles before - i guess
> this is that. Presumably, it shifts the exercise to work more like
> singles, focusing more on limit strength and less on endurance or
> mass-building.

It also gives the discs a breather of a ROM without load to recover
from the compression load, which could reduce the risks of disc
injury.

>> 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury and
>> muscle build up.

> Avoiding muscle build up is a pretty unorthodox goal for deadlifts. That
> crazy Russian!

He specifically wants to develop the most efficient muscle, not the
largest muscle. He's into performance, not appearance, and being able
to lift the same weight with smaller muscles, even if they take longer
to develop, means you'll have a higher performance on body weight
exercises, running, etc.. He comes from more of a martial arts
tradition than competitive weight lifting or body building.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

"Bully" <bully19@proteinbars.co.ok> schreef:

>> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
>> wind up
>> not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.

> Well, yes it is.

Olympic liftters often place their hands with millimeter accuracy.

Pavel is insane if he really said such a thing.

>> But your
>> suggestion to look down and get centered is a lot more natural.

>> He suggests standing between each rep so that your back doesn't tire
>> quicker than anything else.

> It's a back exercise, right? So isn't the intention to work your back more
> than anything else?

No comment.

>> The negative of the rep is often thought to add muscle bulk. Pavel's
>> not so much into that. The wiry guys who weight a buck-fifty and pull
>> 600 pounds in a deadlift are the people he respects the most.

> Please name names!

Yeah!

Tyrone recently bought a computer.

--
Pete, The New & Improved Version

"Take your own advice: killfile. I took your advice on that subject BTW.
Your turn dude" -- Will Brink

"Problem is, I still see his/their posts 'cause
you respond to them, and that throws the balance of the universe of" -- Will
Brink

On 20 Jan 2007 14:57:09 GMT, Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
wrote:

>Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, ee wrote:
>
>>> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar. Instead, keep your eyes on
>>> the ceiling.
>
>> Do KBers do special optic nerve-lengthening exercises to allow them to do
>> this?
>
>You could always tie bits of string or tape on the bar, so you could
>feel instead of looking. If accuracy matters than that method would be
>more accurate than looking, because you could do it by measurement.

His deadlifting advice in Power to the People seems to be written with
newbies in mind. He wants them to practice good alignment while the
weights are still light. I followed his advice when I first started
doing deads and didn't have much trouble gripping the bar evenly
without looking down. When it felt more than a little off, I adjusted
my grip a bit. At the beginning while the weights are light, it's not
such a big deal if you're off by an inch or so. If you correctly
position yourself over the bar, really push your butt back during the
descent, regard your arms as nothing more than cables, etc., etc., you
can grip the bar evenly without looking at it.

Putting tactile markers on the bar could also be helpful


>
>>> 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>
>> I've heard of people doing sets as sequences of singles before - i guess
>> this is that. Presumably, it shifts the exercise to work more like
>> singles, focusing more on limit strength and less on endurance or
>> mass-building.
>
>It also gives the discs a breather of a ROM without load to recover
>from the compression load, which could reduce the risks of disc
>injury.
>
>>> 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury and
>>> muscle build up.
>
>> Avoiding muscle build up is a pretty unorthodox goal for deadlifts. That
>> crazy Russian!
>
>He specifically wants to develop the most efficient muscle, not the
>largest muscle. He's into performance, not appearance, and being able
>to lift the same weight with smaller muscles, even if they take longer
>to develop, means you'll have a higher performance on body weight
>exercises, running, etc.. He comes from more of a martial arts
>tradition than competitive weight lifting or body building.

Pavel advises people to drop with the bar as distinct from dropping
the bar.

He advises training deads as singles to prevent deterioration of form.

His background is martial arts and kettlebell training, not
bodybuilding as this term is _currently_ understood. That doesn't
mean that benchers (and other PLers) and bodybuilders can't benefit
from his recommendations. Pavel has something to say to people who
want to be strong - whether they want a wiry physique or are built
like a bear. (Aspiring comedians that was your cue!) Get a copy of
_Beyond Bodybuilding_ by Pavel if you care to know what I'm talking
about. And/or go to www.dragondoor.com and check out some of the
articles

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Fitness
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Combat
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Kettlebells
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode2/Martial_Arts

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:38:56 -0000, "Bully"
<bully19@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com,
>ee <ekurth@broadcom.com> typed:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started deadlifting.
>> He has
>> some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what others
>> think of
>> them.
>>
>> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>
>You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is even. If
>he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as long as
>you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although best not to
>try and look at the honey behind you!].

Not really. Some of the best deadlifters use this technique and Pavel
isn't the first to advocate doing it. Actually, the important part
isn't gripping the bar without looking. It is dropping and grabbing
the bar as quickly as possible and starting the pull immediately.
There is no reason one couldn't watch the bar on the way down, grip,
pull into position and rip the bar up. You would then have the extra
step of pulling oneself into position though which may or may not
affect the stretch reflex.

Here's more information on the technique:
http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsl.../coaching.html

>
>> Instead, keep your eyes on
>> the ceiling.
>> 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>
>What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?

Here he is just being a moron.

>
>> 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
>> and muscle build up.
>
>WTF is muscle build up?

Putting the weight down quickly after a 1RM, especially in
competition, is a good thing. Doing it between reps in training is
just stupid. Muscle build up is a good thing. Everything else being
equal, the guy with the most muscle gets laid more often.

>
>>
>> I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
>> wondered if others
>> do it this way.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eric

"Edna Pearl" <edna_pearl@yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote in message
news:Atcsh.128$p%6.3@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
> "ee" <ekurth@broadcom.com> wrote in message
> news:1169229407.349837.305440@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
>>
>> Bully wrote:
>>> In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com,
>>> ee <ekurth@broadcom.com> typed:
>>> > Hello,
>>> >
>>> > I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started
>>> > deadlifting.
>>> > He has
>>> > some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what
>>> > others
>>> > think of
>>> > them.
>>> >
>>> > 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>>>
>>> You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is
>>> even. If
>>> he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as
>>> long as
>>> you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although
>>> best not to
>>> try and look at the honey behind you!].
>>>
>>> > Instead, keep your eyes on
>>> > the ceiling.
>>> > 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>>>
>>> What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?
>>>
>>> > 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid
>>> > injury
>>> > and muscle build up.
>>>
>>> WTF is muscle build up?
>>>
>>> >
>>> > I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
>>> > wondered if others
>>> > do it this way.
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bully
>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>>
>>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
>>> sees
>>> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>>
>> Thanks for the response, Bully.
>>
>> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if
>> you
>> wind up
>> not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.
>
> That's just nuts. The other two rules you've cited are silly, IMHO,
> but the idea that it doesn't matter if your grip is uneven on a
> deadlift is just nuts.

No, it all really works fine, honest. I never look at the bar and have
been deadlifting for several years this way. I also always stand up
between reps - better for good form, better practice for a meet, and
better to avoid the negative which has increased potential for both
hypertrophy and injury, neither of which I'm interested in.

I also "fall with the weight" as Pavel advocates, I don't drop the bar.
I do this in competition exactly as I do it in training, and I've never
been redlighted for this reason. As long as demonstrate you've in
control of the bar and the situation, you're OK.

If you look up, you're more likely to keep your back straighter, a very
good thing for "The People" who are getting started deadlifting. OTOH,
most experienced DL'ers (please note that I said most, and not "all")
will be able to pull more weight by starting their conventional DL
focused on the floor a couple of meters in front of them and not up. I
don't know all the kinesiology here but I believe it's been documented.
The tradeoff is that it's much easier to find yourself bending your
lower back the wrong way when you look slightly down to start instead of
more upwards.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
news:51f8a5F1k17j6U1@mid.individual.net...
> "Edna Pearl" <edna_pearl@yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote in message
> news:Atcsh.128$p%6.3@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>> "ee" <ekurth@broadcom.com> wrote in message
>> news:1169229407.349837.305440@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
>>>
>>> Bully wrote:
>>>> In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com,
>>>> ee <ekurth@broadcom.com> typed:
>>>> > Hello,
>>>> >
>>>> > I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started
>>>> > deadlifting.
>>>> > He has
>>>> > some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what
>>>> > others
>>>> > think of
>>>> > them.
>>>> >
>>>> > 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>>>>
>>>> You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is even.
>>>> If
>>>> he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as
>>>> long as
>>>> you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although best
>>>> not to
>>>> try and look at the honey behind you!].
>>>>
>>>> > Instead, keep your eyes on
>>>> > the ceiling.
>>>> > 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>>>>
>>>> What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?
>>>>
>>>> > 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
>>>> > and muscle build up.
>>>>
>>>> WTF is muscle build up?
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> > I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
>>>> > wondered if others
>>>> > do it this way.
>>>> >
>>>> > Regards,
>>>> > Eric
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bully
>>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>>>
>>>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
>>>> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>>>
>>> Thanks for the response, Bully.
>>>
>>> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
>>> wind up
>>> not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.
>>
>> That's just nuts. The other two rules you've cited are silly, IMHO, but
>> the idea that it doesn't matter if your grip is uneven on a deadlift is
>> just nuts.
>
> No, it all really works fine, honest. I never look at the bar and have
> been deadlifting for several years this way. I also always stand up
> between reps - better for good form, better practice for a meet, and
> better to avoid the negative which has increased potential for both
> hypertrophy and injury, neither of which I'm interested in.
>
> I also "fall with the weight" as Pavel advocates, I don't drop the bar. I
> do this in competition exactly as I do it in training, and I've never been
> redlighted for this reason. As long as demonstrate you've in control of
> the bar and the situation, you're OK.
>
> If you look up, you're more likely to keep your back straighter, a very
> good thing for "The People" who are getting started deadlifting. OTOH,
> most experienced DL'ers (please note that I said most, and not "all") will
> be able to pull more weight by starting their conventional DL focused on
> the floor a couple of meters in front of them and not up. I don't know
> all the kinesiology here but I believe it's been documented. The tradeoff
> is that it's much easier to find yourself bending your lower back the
> wrong way when you look slightly down to start instead of more upwards.

Steve, I'm not debating the fact that it's a good idea to keep your eyes up,
and thus your head erect, *while* you're deadlifting. As you say, of
course, obviously, looking up makes it harder to arch and thus injure your
back while you're deadlifting.

What I'm taking issue with is the notion that, as the OP said Pavel says, is
that you should not look down at the bar *before* you start the lift because
it's "no big deal" if your grip is uneven. First, I cannot fathom why it
would do any harm whatsoever to look down at the bar *before* you deadlift.
Second, it can definitely be a very big deal if you *start* lifting with the
bar significantly off-center. Looking down at the bar to position yourself
*before* you lift can help prevent you from injuring yourself by trying to
lift a heavy bar off-center *during* your lift.

For example, (1) I look down at the bar to position myself *before* I
deadlift, (2) then I look dead ahead while I mentally check my posture, (3)
then keep I my eyes dead ahead *while* I deadlift. The idea that I should
skip step (1), as the OP says Pavel recommends, is asinine.

ep

"John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
news:i6p4r25n53actfktee1sn21h2r3v09k3l2@4ax.com...
> Actually, the important part
> isn't gripping the bar without looking. It is dropping and grabbing
> the bar as quickly as possible and starting the pull immediately.

Now, *that* makes sense.

> There is no reason one couldn't watch the bar on the way down, grip,
> pull into position and rip the bar up. You would then have the extra
> step of pulling oneself into position though which may or may not
> affect the stretch reflex.
>
> Here's more information on the technique:
> http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsl.../coaching.html

I notice that the writer does not forbid looking down as the OP suggested
Pavel does, and the writer does not suggest that "it's no big" deal you grab
the bar off-center. On the contrary, the writer notes that it takes
practice to learn to grab the bar perfectly but quickly (in the penultimate
paragraph).

ep

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:31:17 -0600, "Edna Pearl"
<edna_pearl@yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
>news:i6p4r25n53actfktee1sn21h2r3v09k3l2@4ax.com.. .
>> Actually, the important part
>> isn't gripping the bar without looking. It is dropping and grabbing
>> the bar as quickly as possible and starting the pull immediately.
>
>Now, *that* makes sense.
>
>> There is no reason one couldn't watch the bar on the way down, grip,
>> pull into position and rip the bar up. You would then have the extra
>> step of pulling oneself into position though which may or may not
>> affect the stretch reflex.
>>
>> Here's more information on the technique:
>> http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsl.../coaching.html
>
>I notice that the writer does not forbid looking down as the OP suggested
>Pavel does, and the writer does not suggest that "it's no big" deal you grab
>the bar off-center. On the contrary, the writer notes that it takes
>practice to learn to grab the bar perfectly but quickly (in the penultimate
>paragraph).
>
It should also be noted that the writer is the coach for the US
women's team and the personal coach of Priscilla Ribic, the best drug
free woman powerlifter in the world.

"John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
news:dbv4r21ej870ffoq4s4tnqukcdfmpaj1ah@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:31:17 -0600, "Edna Pearl"
> <edna_pearl@yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>"John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
>>news:i6p4r25n53actfktee1sn21h2r3v09k3l2@4ax.com. ..
>>> Actually, the important part
>>> isn't gripping the bar without looking. It is dropping and grabbing
>>> the bar as quickly as possible and starting the pull immediately.
>>
>>Now, *that* makes sense.
>>
>>> There is no reason one couldn't watch the bar on the way down, grip,
>>> pull into position and rip the bar up. You would then have the extra
>>> step of pulling oneself into position though which may or may not
>>> affect the stretch reflex.
>>>
>>> Here's more information on the technique:
>>> http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsl.../coaching.html
>>
>>I notice that the writer does not forbid looking down as the OP suggested
>>Pavel does, and the writer does not suggest that "it's no big" deal you
>>grab
>>the bar off-center. On the contrary, the writer notes that it takes
>>practice to learn to grab the bar perfectly but quickly (in the
>>penultimate
>>paragraph).
>>
> It should also be noted that the writer is the coach for the US
> women's team and the personal coach of Priscilla Ribic, the best drug
> free woman powerlifter in the world.

Thanks -- I googled her, and she's certainly quite an athlete. I'm glad to
know about her.

This has been in the back of my mind while I've been sitting here, working
at my desk, and I realize that this idea of getting down to grab and up into
the lift as quickly as possible is quite consistent with my own experience.
I haven't been focussing on my deadlift much lately, but when I got to my
personal best deadlift a couple of years ago, that speed thing was
instinctively a factor, without my being aware of any theory or practice to
back it up.

I did my heaviest deadlifts when it was my second lift, after
moderate-weight squats. Then I'd do however many warm-up deadlifts my body
told me to with a lighter bar (iirc, it was usually two sets of 3-5 reps,
one at about a third at about my max weight to get the kinks out, then I'd
load the bar for another short set of fairly challenging lifts to make sure
my form was good and get the feel of good form), then I'd load up the bar
with more weight for one or two lifts close to my max. During these lifts,
I'd be taking my time crouching down, grabbing the bar, snuggling my feet
into their stance and getting my ass down to the floor.

But then, for the last, big lift, I'd slap additional plates on the bar for
whatever my target weight was, huff, puff, walk around, stretch my
shoulders, then just dive down on that bar and yank it up as fast and as
hard as I could.

I take this as evidence of how our bodies can sometimes tell us what we're
supposed to do next when it comes to lifting. This is not to minimize, of
course, the myriad bad habits we can get into while lifting without adequate
coaching or knowledge on technique, but it's just interesting to me to have
my personal experience of deadlifting confirmed by this coach's article. I
instinctively knew, somehow, that to lift my heaviest weight I needed to
quickly and smoothly squat, grab, and lift.

ep
(and I'll guarantee you I look at my grip on the bar before I deadlift,
including that last, heaviest lift)

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:22:56 -0600, "Edna Pearl"
<edna_pearl@yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote:

>"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
>news:51f8a5F1k17j6U1@mid.individual.net...
>> "Edna Pearl" <edna_pearl@yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote in message
>> news:Atcsh.128$p%6.3@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>> "ee" <ekurth@broadcom.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1169229407.349837.305440@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
>>>>
>>>> Bully wrote:
>>>>> In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com,
>>>>> ee <ekurth@broadcom.com> typed:
>>>>> > Hello,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started
>>>>> > deadlifting.
>>>>> > He has
>>>>> > some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what
>>>>> > others
>>>>> > think of
>>>>> > them.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>>>>>
>>>>> You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is even.
>>>>> If
>>>>> he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as
>>>>> long as
>>>>> you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although best
>>>>> not to
>>>>> try and look at the honey behind you!].
>>>>>
>>>>> > Instead, keep your eyes on
>>>>> > the ceiling.
>>>>> > 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>>>>>
>>>>> What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?
>>>>>
>>>>> > 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid injury
>>>>> > and muscle build up.
>>>>>
>>>>> WTF is muscle build up?
>>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
>>>>> > wondered if others
>>>>> > do it this way.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Regards,
>>>>> > Eric
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bully
>>>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>>>>
>>>>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
>>>>> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the response, Bully.
>>>>
>>>> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
>>>> wind up
>>>> not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.
>>>
>>> That's just nuts. The other two rules you've cited are silly, IMHO, but
>>> the idea that it doesn't matter if your grip is uneven on a deadlift is
>>> just nuts.
>>
>> No, it all really works fine, honest. I never look at the bar and have
>> been deadlifting for several years this way. I also always stand up
>> between reps - better for good form, better practice for a meet, and
>> better to avoid the negative which has increased potential for both
>> hypertrophy and injury, neither of which I'm interested in.
>>
>> I also "fall with the weight" as Pavel advocates, I don't drop the bar. I
>> do this in competition exactly as I do it in training, and I've never been
>> redlighted for this reason. As long as demonstrate you've in control of
>> the bar and the situation, you're OK.
>>
>> If you look up, you're more likely to keep your back straighter, a very
>> good thing for "The People" who are getting started deadlifting. OTOH,
>> most experienced DL'ers (please note that I said most, and not "all") will
>> be able to pull more weight by starting their conventional DL focused on
>> the floor a couple of meters in front of them and not up. I don't know
>> all the kinesiology here but I believe it's been documented. The tradeoff
>> is that it's much easier to find yourself bending your lower back the
>> wrong way when you look slightly down to start instead of more upwards.
>
>Steve, I'm not debating the fact that it's a good idea to keep your eyes up,
>and thus your head erect, *while* you're deadlifting. As you say, of
>course, obviously, looking up makes it harder to arch and thus injure your
>back while you're deadlifting.

I don't understand what you're writing. Keeping your eyes up is part
of what you need to do to keep a tight arch in your lower back. The
arch is supposed to protect your back, not make injury more likely.
>
>What I'm taking issue with is the notion that, as the OP said Pavel says, is
>that you should not look down at the bar *before* you start the lift because
>it's "no big deal" if your grip is uneven. First, I cannot fathom why it
>would do any harm whatsoever to look down at the bar *before* you deadlift.
>Second, it can definitely be a very big deal if you *start* lifting with the
>bar significantly off-center. Looking down at the bar to position yourself
>*before* you lift can help prevent you from injuring yourself by trying to
>lift a heavy bar off-center *during* your lift.

He doesn't say that you shouldn't look at the bar before you start the
lift because it's no big deal if your grip is uneven. His advice is
intended to help newbies get into the habit of ensuring proper
alignment. When you're starting to deadlift and the weights are very
light, it's no a big deal if your grips are off an inch or so IF your
alignment is correct, i.e., your back is not rounded, you're not
leaning forward, your body is tight, you have a tight arch, your
shoulders are back, you don't twist as you lift, etc., etc. If your
grip is off a tiny bit when the weights are light and you're otherwise
practicing correct alignment, it's not going to be a big deal. If you
feel your grip is off a bit while you're looking up, adjust them. Put
a tactile marker on the bar if you prefer.

Experienced lifters who are moving heavy weights have probably already
found a relatively safe and effective system. They already know how
to get an even grip and all the rest. The best of them have doubtless
worked with great trainers for a long time.
>
>For example, (1) I look down at the bar to position myself *before* I
>deadlift, (2) then I look dead ahead while I mentally check my posture, (3)
>then keep I my eyes dead ahead *while* I deadlift. The idea that I should
>skip step (1), as the OP says Pavel recommends, is asinine.

>
>ep
>

gedaloda@thisguy.com <gedaloda@thisguy.com> wrote:
> Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>>Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
>>> ee wrote:
>>>> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar. Instead, keep your eyes on
>>>> the ceiling.
>>
>>> Do KBers do special optic nerve-lengthening exercises to allow them to do
>>> this?
>>
>>You could always tie bits of string or tape on the bar, so you could
>>feel instead of looking. If accuracy matters than that method would be
>>more accurate than looking, because you could do it by measurement.
>
> His deadlifting advice in Power to the People seems to be written with
> newbies in mind. He wants them to practice good alignment while the
> weights are still light.

I've heard Russian powerlifters saying that you shouldn't bend your
head down while deadlifting because of some concerns related to spinal
cord. "Don't look down" advice might be of that nature.

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 17:29:54 -0600, "Edna Pearl"
<edna_pearl@yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
>news:dbv4r21ej870ffoq4s4tnqukcdfmpaj1ah@4ax.com.. .
>> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:31:17 -0600, "Edna Pearl"
>> <edna_pearl@yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>>
>>>"John Hanson" <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote in message
>>>news:i6p4r25n53actfktee1sn21h2r3v09k3l2@4ax.com ...
>>>> Actually, the important part
>>>> isn't gripping the bar without looking. It is dropping and grabbing
>>>> the bar as quickly as possible and starting the pull immediately.
>>>
>>>Now, *that* makes sense.
>>>
>>>> There is no reason one couldn't watch the bar on the way down, grip,
>>>> pull into position and rip the bar up. You would then have the extra
>>>> step of pulling oneself into position though which may or may not
>>>> affect the stretch reflex.
>>>>
>>>> Here's more information on the technique:
>>>> http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsl.../coaching.html
>>>
>>>I notice that the writer does not forbid looking down as the OP suggested
>>>Pavel does, and the writer does not suggest that "it's no big" deal you
>>>grab
>>>the bar off-center. On the contrary, the writer notes that it takes
>>>practice to learn to grab the bar perfectly but quickly (in the
>>>penultimate
>>>paragraph).
>>>
>> It should also be noted that the writer is the coach for the US
>> women's team and the personal coach of Priscilla Ribic, the best drug
>> free woman powerlifter in the world.
>
>Thanks -- I googled her, and she's certainly quite an athlete. I'm glad to
>know about her.

She's also a very nice person, not that I know her all that well.
She's really good friends with a local powerlifting couple (Welborns),
who are also really good people.
http://yohan.northernlinks.com/PriscillaJohn.JPG

>
>This has been in the back of my mind while I've been sitting here, working
>at my desk, and I realize that this idea of getting down to grab and up into
>the lift as quickly as possible is quite consistent with my own experience.
>I haven't been focussing on my deadlift much lately, but when I got to my
>personal best deadlift a couple of years ago, that speed thing was
>instinctively a factor, without my being aware of any theory or practice to
>back it up.
>
>I did my heaviest deadlifts when it was my second lift, after
>moderate-weight squats. Then I'd do however many warm-up deadlifts my body
>told me to with a lighter bar (iirc, it was usually two sets of 3-5 reps,
>one at about a third at about my max weight to get the kinks out, then I'd
>load the bar for another short set of fairly challenging lifts to make sure
>my form was good and get the feel of good form), then I'd load up the bar
>with more weight for one or two lifts close to my max. During these lifts,
>I'd be taking my time crouching down, grabbing the bar, snuggling my feet
>into their stance and getting my ass down to the floor.
>
>But then, for the last, big lift, I'd slap additional plates on the bar for
>whatever my target weight was, huff, puff, walk around, stretch my
>shoulders, then just dive down on that bar and yank it up as fast and as
>hard as I could.

You were using your stretch reflex, which is something that we don't
naturally have when doing a deadlift if set up at the bottom and then
pull.

>
>I take this as evidence of how our bodies can sometimes tell us what we're
>supposed to do next when it comes to lifting. This is not to minimize, of
>course, the myriad bad habits we can get into while lifting without adequate
>coaching or knowledge on technique, but it's just interesting to me to have
>my personal experience of deadlifting confirmed by this coach's article. I
>instinctively knew, somehow, that to lift my heaviest weight I needed to
>quickly and smoothly squat, grab, and lift.

It only makes sense when you think about it.

>
>ep
>(and I'll guarantee you I look at my grip on the bar before I deadlift,
>including that last, heaviest lift)
>

One of the guys I train with sets up by dropping down to the bar and
then raising his hips, getting his grip and then dropping his hips
quickly and immediately starts his pull. Again, the trick isn't to
not look at the bar, but to quickly reverse direction and start
pulling, just like you mentioned.

The woman I train with, doesn't look at the bar when she pulls but she
practices that movement three times a week. Now that's a lot of
practice. She just recently pulled 320@132 and she's 46? years old.

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 23:43:09 GMT, gedaloda@thisguy.com wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:


>
>He doesn't say that you shouldn't look at the bar before you start the
>lift because it's no big deal if your grip is uneven. His advice is
>intended to help newbies get into the habit of ensuring proper
>alignment. When you're starting to deadlift and the weights are very
>light, it's no a big deal if your grips are off an inch or so IF your
>alignment is correct, i.e., your back is not rounded, you're not
>leaning forward, your body is tight, you have a tight arch, your
>shoulders are back, you don't twist as you lift, etc., etc. If your
>grip is off a tiny bit when the weights are light and you're otherwise
>practicing correct alignment, it's not going to be a big deal. If you
>feel your grip is off a bit while you're looking up, adjust them. Put
>a tactile marker on the bar if you prefer.

Your best deadlifters round their backs. They'll also try to extend
their arms and shoulders as much as they possible can to make their
arms as long as possible. Having your grip off by an inch or so
lifting very heavy weight is a very bad thing. You probably won't get
the lift.

>
>Experienced lifters who are moving heavy weights have probably already
>found a relatively safe and effective system. They already know how
>to get an even grip and all the rest. The best of them have doubtless
>worked with great trainers for a long time.

The best of them haven't worked with great trainers.

On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 23:39:53 +0000 (UTC), DZ
<574@3144730354.162011479.29099.16936.2415> wrote in
misc.fitness.weights:

>gedaloda@thisguy.com <gedaloda@thisguy.com> wrote:
>> Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
>>>> ee wrote:
>>>>> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar. Instead, keep your eyes on
>>>>> the ceiling.
>>>
>>>> Do KBers do special optic nerve-lengthening exercises to allow them to do
>>>> this?
>>>
>>>You could always tie bits of string or tape on the bar, so you could
>>>feel instead of looking. If accuracy matters than that method would be
>>>more accurate than looking, because you could do it by measurement.
>>
>> His deadlifting advice in Power to the People seems to be written with
>> newbies in mind. He wants them to practice good alignment while the
>> weights are still light.
>
>I've heard Russian powerlifters saying that you shouldn't bend your
>head down while deadlifting because of some concerns related to spinal
>cord. "Don't look down" advice might be of that nature.

None of whom will be at Worlds this year due to the entire Russian
team being suspended for their flagrant drug usage.

John Hanson <jhanson@northernlinks.com> wrote:
> DZ wrote:
>>gedaloda@thisguy.com <gedaloda@thisguy.com> wrote:
>>> Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
>>>>> ee wrote:
>>>>>> 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar. Instead, keep your eyes on
>>>>>> the ceiling.
>>>>
>>>>> Do KBers do special optic nerve-lengthening exercises to allow them to do
>>>>> this?
>>>>
>>>>You could always tie bits of string or tape on the bar, so you could
>>>>feel instead of looking. If accuracy matters than that method would be
>>>>more accurate than looking, because you could do it by measurement.
>>>
>>> His deadlifting advice in Power to the People seems to be written with
>>> newbies in mind. He wants them to practice good alignment while the
>>> weights are still light.
>>
>>I've heard Russian powerlifters saying that you shouldn't bend your
>>head down while deadlifting because of some concerns related to spinal
>>cord. "Don't look down" advice might be of that nature.
>
> None of whom will be at Worlds this year due to the entire Russian
> team being suspended for their flagrant drug usage.

I don't care one way or the other. I was just speculating on the
origin of the phrase.

<gedaloda@thisguy.com> wrote in message
news:1695r253d3r8cvmhd8gfb7emtspmgljs09@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:22:56 -0600, "Edna Pearl"
> <edna_pearl@yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote:
>
>>"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote in message
>>news:51f8a5F1k17j6U1@mid.individual.net...
>>> "Edna Pearl" <edna_pearl@yahoo.BiteMeSpammer.com> wrote in message
>>> news:Atcsh.128$p%6.3@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>>> "ee" <ekurth@broadcom.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1169229407.349837.305440@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> Bully wrote:
>>>>>> In news:1169227529.265729.194180@s34g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com,
>>>>>> ee <ekurth@broadcom.com> typed:
>>>>>> > Hello,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I recently read Pavel's "Power to the People" and started
>>>>>> > deadlifting.
>>>>>> > He has
>>>>>> > some interesting tips with regard to the lift and I wonder what
>>>>>> > others
>>>>>> > think of
>>>>>> > them.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > 1. Don't look down as you grasp the bar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You NEED to look down as you grasp the bar to ensure your grip is
>>>>>> even.
>>>>>> If
>>>>>> he means don't look down as you lift the bar then he is correct & as
>>>>>> long as
>>>>>> you keep your head up, you can look whereever you like [although best
>>>>>> not to
>>>>>> try and look at the honey behind you!].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Instead, keep your eyes on
>>>>>> > the ceiling.
>>>>>> > 2. Stand without the weight between every rep.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What, you have a rest between each rep. To what purpose?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > 3. Put the weight down quickly, nearly dropping it, to avoid
>>>>>> > injury
>>>>>> > and muscle build up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF is muscle build up?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I don't see this advice echoed in other sources or in video so I
>>>>>> > wondered if others
>>>>>> > do it this way.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Regards,
>>>>>> > Eric
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Bully
>>>>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist
>>>>>> sees
>>>>>> the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the response, Bully.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pavel says to reach down for the bar without looking at it, and if you
>>>>> wind up
>>>>> not gripping it evenly by a little bit, it's not a big deal.
>>>>
>>>> That's just nuts. The other two rules you've cited are silly, IMHO,
>>>> but
>>>> the idea that it doesn't matter if your grip is uneven on a deadlift is
>>>> just nuts.
>>>
>>> No, it all really works fine, honest. I never look at the bar and have
>>> been deadlifting for several years this way. I also always stand up
>>> between reps - better for good form, better practice for a meet, and
>>> better to avoid the negative which has increased potential for both
>>> hypertrophy and injury, neither of which I'm interested in.
>>>
>>> I also "fall with the weight" as Pavel advocates, I don't drop the bar.
>>> I
>>> do this in competition exactly as I do it in training, and I've never
>>> been
>>> redlighted for this reason. As long as demonstrate you've in control of
>>> the bar and the situation, you're OK.
>>>
>>> If you look up, you're more likely to keep your back straighter, a very
>>> good thing for "The People" who are getting started deadlifting. OTOH,
>>> most experienced DL'ers (please note that I said most, and not "all")
>>> will
>>> be able to pull more weight by starting their conventional DL focused on
>>> the floor a couple of meters in front of them and not up. I don't know
>>>