Degenerative disk disease update

Second trip to the chiro this morning.

He backed the suggestion of my Ortho' for an inversion table. 2 to 3
times per week for 10 minutes to start. I'll ask him at my next visit
next week for followups on what to work it up to, and when to work it to
a full inversion.

Last weeks treatment did help a bit with the pain. I can now go nearly
20 minutes instead of 10 driving before I start getting the shooting
pains down my right shin. And for the first time last night, I could put
my pants on without sitting down since April.

Today's appt. was interesting. They did some kind of neural spinal
scan. I guess I'll get those results next week. They did another muscle
stim/ultrasound treatment and this time, she upped the voltage past my
brief gasp of pain and oddly enough, the higher voltage actually felt
good so I told her to leave it there.

After that, I went into the main exam room for an adjustment. For those
that looked at the x-ray, the lower lumbar is so screwed up, the sacral
plate is actually crooked, so my pelvis is also tilted slightly. He
had me raise my right leg backwards while I was laying face down. That
sent stabbing pains thru the hip joint and down the front of my shin,
and I could not raise it very high. Ouch.

He then had me raise my left leg. All the way, no pain, no problem.

Then he pressed hard and twisted down on the Sacral spine. No pop or
anything, then asked me to raise my right leg back again...

Wow. Reduced pain, higher lift.

Repeated it.

My response?

Cool! That did not hurt at all! I was able to raise my right leg
backwards the same as the left. I did not expect that kind of relief
that quickly.

He just smiled. ;-)

I doubt it'll last just after two visits, but I'll be seeing him once
per week for awhile. This will cost, but it's worth it...

My commute home was the best I've had in weeks.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

"Omelet" <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
newsmpomelet-EC14B1.12300616072008@news.giganews.com...
> Second trip to the chiro this morning.
>
> He backed the suggestion of my Ortho' for an inversion table. 2 to 3
> times per week for 10 minutes to start. I'll ask him at my next visit
> next week for followups on what to work it up to, and when to work it
> to
> a full inversion.
>
> Last weeks treatment did help a bit with the pain. I can now go
> nearly
> 20 minutes instead of 10 driving before I start getting the shooting
> pains down my right shin. And for the first time last night, I could
> put
> my pants on without sitting down since April.
>
> Today's appt. was interesting. They did some kind of neural spinal
> scan. I guess I'll get those results next week. They did another
> muscle
> stim/ultrasound treatment and this time, she upped the voltage past my
> brief gasp of pain and oddly enough, the higher voltage actually felt
> good so I told her to leave it there.
>
> After that, I went into the main exam room for an adjustment. For
> those
> that looked at the x-ray, the lower lumbar is so screwed up, the
> sacral
> plate is actually crooked, so my pelvis is also tilted slightly. He
> had me raise my right leg backwards while I was laying face down. That
> sent stabbing pains thru the hip joint and down the front of my shin,
> and I could not raise it very high. Ouch.
>
> He then had me raise my left leg. All the way, no pain, no problem.
>
> Then he pressed hard and twisted down on the Sacral spine. No pop or
> anything, then asked me to raise my right leg back again...
>
> Wow. Reduced pain, higher lift.
>
> Repeated it.
>
> My response?
>
> Cool! That did not hurt at all! I was able to raise my right leg
> backwards the same as the left. I did not expect that kind of relief
> that quickly.
>
> He just smiled. ;-)
>
> I doubt it'll last just after two visits, but I'll be seeing him once
> per week for awhile. This will cost, but it's worth it...
>
> My commute home was the best I've had in weeks.
> --
> Peace! Om
>
> "Human nature seems to be to control other people
> until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

Glad to hear you're improving - but I have to ask what is the exercise
component of your plan? My vote, which won't surprise you or anyone
else, is strength training, specifically those exercises which
strengthen the entire lumbar region against forces trying to misalign
it, e.g., a standing, one-armed, overhead strict press with a
heavy-enough-to-matter weight. (If I've missed your discourse on this
subject, my apologies in advance.)

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

In article <6e6q60F5n5h9U1@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> "Omelet" <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
> newsmpomelet-EC14B1.12300616072008@news.giganews.com...
> > Second trip to the chiro this morning.
> >
> > He backed the suggestion of my Ortho' for an inversion table. 2 to 3
> > times per week for 10 minutes to start. I'll ask him at my next visit
> > next week for followups on what to work it up to, and when to work it
> > to
> > a full inversion.
> >
> > Last weeks treatment did help a bit with the pain. I can now go
> > nearly
> > 20 minutes instead of 10 driving before I start getting the shooting
> > pains down my right shin. And for the first time last night, I could
> > put
> > my pants on without sitting down since April.
> >
> > Today's appt. was interesting. They did some kind of neural spinal
> > scan. I guess I'll get those results next week. They did another
> > muscle
> > stim/ultrasound treatment and this time, she upped the voltage past my
> > brief gasp of pain and oddly enough, the higher voltage actually felt
> > good so I told her to leave it there.
> >
> > After that, I went into the main exam room for an adjustment. For
> > those
> > that looked at the x-ray, the lower lumbar is so screwed up, the
> > sacral
> > plate is actually crooked, so my pelvis is also tilted slightly. He
> > had me raise my right leg backwards while I was laying face down. That
> > sent stabbing pains thru the hip joint and down the front of my shin,
> > and I could not raise it very high. Ouch.
> >
> > He then had me raise my left leg. All the way, no pain, no problem.
> >
> > Then he pressed hard and twisted down on the Sacral spine. No pop or
> > anything, then asked me to raise my right leg back again...
> >
> > Wow. Reduced pain, higher lift.
> >
> > Repeated it.
> >
> > My response?
> >
> > Cool! That did not hurt at all! I was able to raise my right leg
> > backwards the same as the left. I did not expect that kind of relief
> > that quickly.
> >
> > He just smiled. ;-)
> >
> > I doubt it'll last just after two visits, but I'll be seeing him once
> > per week for awhile. This will cost, but it's worth it...
> >
> > My commute home was the best I've had in weeks.
> > --
>
> Glad to hear you're improving - but I have to ask what is the exercise
> component of your plan? My vote, which won't surprise you or anyone
> else, is strength training, specifically those exercises which
> strengthen the entire lumbar region against forces trying to misalign
> it, e.g., a standing, one-armed, overhead strict press with a
> heavy-enough-to-matter weight. (If I've missed your discourse on this
> subject, my apologies in advance.)
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com

No worries dude... I've evidently missed some aspects of core torso
strength training. I'm open to advice. It can just not irritate a
degenerated lumbar spine. The two bottom Lumbar disks no longer exist.
For torso muscles, I've obviously not done enough as that fall I took
the end of April precipitated this, but the underlying problems were
there to start with.

Do you need to see a re-post of the x-ray jpeg?

From what googling I've done, DDD is very common. So much so that it
probably explains the number of elderly humans using walkers I saw when
I was waiting for that Rx refill from my main doc this morning.

I don't want to end up that way. It was sad. :-(
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

Omelet <ompome...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Second trip to the chiro this morning.

[...]

>
> My response?
>
> Cool! That did not hurt at all! *I was able to raise my right leg
> backwards the same as the left. I did not expect that kind of relief
> that quickly.
>
> He just smiled. ;-)

[...]

EXCELLENT news, Om!

--
Curt

"Omelet" <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
newsmpomelet-F13DD7.13220716072008@news.giganews.com...
> In article <6e6q60F5n5h9U1@mid.individual.net>,
> "Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> "Omelet" <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> newsmpomelet-EC14B1.12300616072008@news.giganews.com...
>> > Second trip to the chiro this morning.
>> >
>> > He backed the suggestion of my Ortho' for an inversion table. 2 to
>> > 3
>> > times per week for 10 minutes to start. I'll ask him at my next
>> > visit
>> > next week for followups on what to work it up to, and when to work
>> > it
>> > to
>> > a full inversion.
>> >
>> > Last weeks treatment did help a bit with the pain. I can now go
>> > nearly
>> > 20 minutes instead of 10 driving before I start getting the
>> > shooting
>> > pains down my right shin. And for the first time last night, I
>> > could
>> > put
>> > my pants on without sitting down since April.
>> >
>> > Today's appt. was interesting. They did some kind of neural spinal
>> > scan. I guess I'll get those results next week. They did another
>> > muscle
>> > stim/ultrasound treatment and this time, she upped the voltage past
>> > my
>> > brief gasp of pain and oddly enough, the higher voltage actually
>> > felt
>> > good so I told her to leave it there.
>> >
>> > After that, I went into the main exam room for an adjustment. For
>> > those
>> > that looked at the x-ray, the lower lumbar is so screwed up, the
>> > sacral
>> > plate is actually crooked, so my pelvis is also tilted slightly.
>> > He
>> > had me raise my right leg backwards while I was laying face down.
>> > That
>> > sent stabbing pains thru the hip joint and down the front of my
>> > shin,
>> > and I could not raise it very high. Ouch.
>> >
>> > He then had me raise my left leg. All the way, no pain, no problem.
>> >
>> > Then he pressed hard and twisted down on the Sacral spine. No pop
>> > or
>> > anything, then asked me to raise my right leg back again...
>> >
>> > Wow. Reduced pain, higher lift.
>> >
>> > Repeated it.
>> >
>> > My response?
>> >
>> > Cool! That did not hurt at all! I was able to raise my right leg
>> > backwards the same as the left. I did not expect that kind of
>> > relief
>> > that quickly.
>> >
>> > He just smiled. ;-)
>> >
>> > I doubt it'll last just after two visits, but I'll be seeing him
>> > once
>> > per week for awhile. This will cost, but it's worth it...
>> >
>> > My commute home was the best I've had in weeks.
>> > --
>>
>> Glad to hear you're improving - but I have to ask what is the
>> exercise
>> component of your plan? My vote, which won't surprise you or anyone
>> else, is strength training, specifically those exercises which
>> strengthen the entire lumbar region against forces trying to misalign
>> it, e.g., a standing, one-armed, overhead strict press with a
>> heavy-enough-to-matter weight. (If I've missed your discourse on
>> this
>> subject, my apologies in advance.)
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>
> No worries dude... I've evidently missed some aspects of core torso
> strength training. I'm open to advice. It can just not irritate a
> degenerated lumbar spine. The two bottom Lumbar disks no longer exist.
> For torso muscles, I've obviously not done enough as that fall I took
> the end of April precipitated this, but the underlying problems were
> there to start with.
>
> Do you need to see a re-post of the x-ray jpeg?

Nope.

> From what googling I've done, DDD is very common. So much so that it
> probably explains the number of elderly humans using walkers I saw
> when
> I was waiting for that Rx refill from my main doc this morning.
>
> I don't want to end up that way. It was sad. :-(

Well, that's a good sign.

Part of the whole Party approach to lifting, and part of why Dr. Stuart
McGill likes the Party approach to lifting (read his "Ultimate Back
Fitness and Performance" if you haven't already) is the concept I
mentioned above, namely creating a stable lower back against forces
trying to destabilize it, paired with mobile hips and shoulders. You
could do a lot worse than to get Pavel's "Enter The Kettlebell" and read
it - even if you decide not to do the exercises, the principles involved
are very likely the things that can help you. The basic movements like
swing and press all do just this. For a starter, grab a dumbbell and do
a standing, one-armed Arnold press - glutes locked, lats flared, and as
little movement in the lumbar spine as possible while pressing - think
Valsalva, think deadlift, and apply those principles to your Arnold
press. Work the negative hard - pull the weight back down in the same
groove you pressed it, don't just let gravity bring it down for you.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Omelet" <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
newsmpomelet-EC14B1.12300616072008@news.giganews.com...
> Second trip to the chiro this morning.


Hang in Dude,

Glad you are feeling a little better and it sounds like the treatment is
going to work so stay tuff.

Burr

In article
<b86bc494-bd6e-4435-b9fa-75d96391a7d5@z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Curt <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote:

> Omelet <ompome...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Second trip to the chiro this morning.
>
> [...]
>
> >
> > My response?
> >
> > Cool! That did not hurt at all! *I was able to raise my right leg
> > backwards the same as the left. I did not expect that kind of relief
> > that quickly.
> >
> > He just smiled. ;-)
>
> [...]
>
> EXCELLENT news, Om!
>
> --
> Curt

More updates later... I signed on at the Y near where I work so I can
swim laps.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

In article <6e75shF5iemkU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> > From what googling I've done, DDD is very common. So much so that it
> > probably explains the number of elderly humans using walkers I saw
> > when
> > I was waiting for that Rx refill from my main doc this morning.
> >
> > I don't want to end up that way. It was sad. :-(
>
> Well, that's a good sign.
>
> Part of the whole Party approach to lifting, and part of why Dr. Stuart
> McGill likes the Party approach to lifting (read his "Ultimate Back
> Fitness and Performance" if you haven't already) is the concept I
> mentioned above, namely creating a stable lower back against forces
> trying to destabilize it, paired with mobile hips and shoulders. You
> could do a lot worse than to get Pavel's "Enter The Kettlebell" and read
> it - even if you decide not to do the exercises, the principles involved
> are very likely the things that can help you. The basic movements like
> swing and press all do just this. For a starter, grab a dumbbell and do
> a standing, one-armed Arnold press - glutes locked, lats flared, and as
> little movement in the lumbar spine as possible while pressing - think
> Valsalva, think deadlift, and apply those principles to your Arnold
> press. Work the negative hard - pull the weight back down in the same
> groove you pressed it, don't just let gravity bring it down for you.
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com

Okay, I can do those at home. I have a rack of those Octagonal
dumbells...

Thanks.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

In article <h-udnQ_vt5Py6OPVnZ2dnUVZ_r3inZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"Burr" <pitzradio@earthlink.net> wrote:

> "Omelet" <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
> newsmpomelet-EC14B1.12300616072008@news.giganews.com...
> > Second trip to the chiro this morning.
>
>
> Hang in Dude,
>
> Glad you are feeling a little better and it sounds like the treatment is
> going to work so stay tuff.
>
> Burr

I'm not taking painkillers other than the occasional dose of Ibuprofen
to help me sleep... ;-)
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

Omelet <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote:

> After that, I went into the main exam room for an adjustment. For those
> that looked at the x-ray, the lower lumbar is so screwed up, the sacral
> plate is actually crooked, so my pelvis is also tilted slightly. He
> had me raise my right leg backwards while I was laying face down. That
> sent stabbing pains thru the hip joint and down the front of my shin,
> and I could not raise it very high. Ouch.

> He then had me raise my left leg. All the way, no pain, no problem.

> Then he pressed hard and twisted down on the Sacral spine. No pop or
> anything, then asked me to raise my right leg back again...

> Wow. Reduced pain, higher lift.

> Repeated it.

> My response?

> Cool! That did not hurt at all! I was able to raise my right leg
> backwards the same as the left. I did not expect that kind of relief
> that quickly.

> He just smiled. ;-)

> I doubt it'll last just after two visits, but I'll be seeing him once
> per week for awhile. This will cost, but it's worth it...

Decades ago I developed very bad back problems for which the only
cures offered were somewhat risky vertebral fusion surgery which I
declined, or repeated visits to my chiro, who was always able to make
me feel much better, stand up straighter, no pain, more
flexibility. It sometimes even lasted for a few wonderful hours...

He said as time passed it would last longer and longer before things
became misaligned and started hurting again. However, since his fees
made it clear that this would involve trading serious physical pain
for serious financial pain I tried to find ways of achieving the same
result without his expensive assistance.

What I eventually found worked well was hanging upside down and
wriggling in a relaxing sort of way for several seconds while
suspended from one leg, and then the other. I suspended myself by
means of a soft webbing strap looped around an ankle because that was
comfortable and involved no muscular effort once suspended, thus
letting me relax to allow things to get pulled out.

I did this every day before going to bed. I found that I could stop
the effect wearing off in the night if I slept on a very hard firm
surface. I did that by placing a small wooden door on my side of the
mattress and then covering it with a thick rug. I suspect that the
reason that worked was that people change position in their sleep in
response to the effect of pressure on the local weight supporting
points. If your bed is soft you don't move so much in your sleep. I
noticed that remaining motionless in any position for some time seemed
to make my back worse. For example sitting on a hard chair which made
me fidget kept my back feeling better than sitting in a soft chair
where I could comfortably remain motionless. It was the lack of motion
which seemed to allow my injured back to start seizing up with cramps.

Sleeping on a rug covered door was definitely uncomfortable and seemed
pretty drastic, especially to my wife :-), but it was the only thing
which stopped my back seizing up in the night while I slept.

The chiro was right. Slowly but surely the length of time increased
that my back held these temporary boosts into pain free
flexibility. After a few months I stopped having to do the hanging
every day. A few months more and I was only doing it once a week or
so, on demand when I stiffened up and started hurting.

The good news is that a careful programme of back strengthening
walking led to my complete recovery, in the sense that if I take care
not to push it too far my back is now capable of hiking with a heavy
rucksack, shifting heavy furniture, running, jumping, etc.. The bad
news is that it took about twelve years to get to the stage of being
able to run and jump and carry heavy things.

These days I keep the old back in shape and out of pain by doing
pullups, which can sometimes be definitely be felt straightening it
out in the same way as a chiro adjustment used to do, one armed weight
lifts (thanks Steve :-), and occasional fast descents of steep rugged
slopes where a bit of jumping down is required. Those seem to work by
forcing me to make sudden balancing movements and take shock loadings
over a more more various range of positions than repetitive excercise
regimes manage. I suspect boulder hopping would work well too, but I
don't have a convenient nearby boulder field :-)

It appears that over the years my body has repaired some of the
original damage by doing some vertebral fusion on its own. The last
spine specialist to look at X-rays of it some years ago thought it had
done a better job of that than surgeons would have managed.

I'm not recommending that anyone follow my particular recipe. Back
injuries are as various as people. I ended up discovering my own
recipe for progressive recovery by exploring lots of things, junking
what hurt and developing what helped. If you listen carefully and
sympathetically to your aches and pains they will sometimes tell you
what help your body needs in recovering from (or adapting to)
injuries.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

In article <6e8ohgF5tbjmU1@mid.individual.net>,
Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

> > I doubt it'll last just after two visits, but I'll be seeing him once
> > per week for awhile. This will cost, but it's worth it...
>
> Decades ago I developed very bad back problems for which the only
> cures offered were somewhat risky vertebral fusion surgery which I
> declined, or repeated visits to my chiro, who was always able to make
> me feel much better, stand up straighter, no pain, more
> flexibility. It sometimes even lasted for a few wonderful hours...
>
> He said as time passed it would last longer and longer before things
> became misaligned and started hurting again. However, since his fees
> made it clear that this would involve trading serious physical pain
> for serious financial pain I tried to find ways of achieving the same
> result without his expensive assistance.

Once my health insurance is used up, it'll drop to $36.00 per visit.
This will probably be weekly. I can afford that to avoid being cut
open. ;-) Plus I'm doing other things such as swimming, (a drastically
underestimated and under-used form of cardio), specific torso work, and
am contemplating yoga.

The chiro' can't do it all. Some of it I have to get off my lazy ass and
do myself. <g>

>
> What I eventually found worked well was hanging upside down and
> wriggling in a relaxing sort of way for several seconds while
> suspended from one leg, and then the other. I suspended myself by
> means of a soft webbing strap looped around an ankle because that was
> comfortable and involved no muscular effort once suspended, thus
> letting me relax to allow things to get pulled out.

Both the Chiro' and the Ortho' (who does NOT recommend surgery) have
encouraged me to get an inversion table. I'm going to Academy this
weekend to get one and will start using it right away.

>
> I did this every day before going to bed. I found that I could stop
> the effect wearing off in the night if I slept on a very hard firm
> surface. I did that by placing a small wooden door on my side of the
> mattress and then covering it with a thick rug. I suspect that the
> reason that worked was that people change position in their sleep in
> response to the effect of pressure on the local weight supporting
> points. If your bed is soft you don't move so much in your sleep.

The Chiro' already discussed my sleep positioning with me. I sleep on a
well padded futon (folded) so it's 1/2 the size of a full bed. I wrap
myself around a body pillow and sleep on my side to keep my spine
straight. Works for the most part. The fall I took in April has been
the problem by exacerbating the issue.

It's getting better, but still taking time. 4 hours sleeping in one
position, the pain wakes me up if I'm not set right.

> I
> noticed that remaining motionless in any position for some time seemed
> to make my back worse.

See above. <g>

> For example sitting on a hard chair which made
> me fidget kept my back feeling better than sitting in a soft chair
> where I could comfortably remain motionless. It was the lack of motion
> which seemed to allow my injured back to start seizing up with cramps.

I experience the greatest pain attempting to commute to and from work.
The commute is 25 to 30 minutes. Cramps hell! Shin splints. Stabbing
pains. It sucks. Long distance driving is out without breaks to walk
the pain out.

>
> Sleeping on a rug covered door was definitely uncomfortable and seemed
> pretty drastic, especially to my wife :-), but it was the only thing
> which stopped my back seizing up in the night while I slept.

Hard surfaces make me worse.
But, thanks. ;-)
>
> The chiro was right. Slowly but surely the length of time increased
> that my back held these temporary boosts into pain free
> flexibility. After a few months I stopped having to do the hanging
> every day. A few months more and I was only doing it once a week or
> so, on demand when I stiffened up and started hurting.

Therapy is therapy. It's not an overnight miracle cure. I know that.
I've been hurting now for 12 weeks. A bit longer makes no difference.

>
> The good news is that a careful programme of back strengthening
> walking led to my complete recovery,

I started swimming this morning and will write up a specific weight
lifting plan this weekend after I dig my dumbbell rack out of the mess
in the den.

Yoga will be figured in to it too, but that will eat into my internet
time. <g>


> in the sense that if I take care
> not to push it too far my back is now capable of hiking with a heavy
> rucksack, shifting heavy furniture, running, jumping, etc.. The bad
> news is that it took about twelve years to get to the stage of being
> able to run and jump and carry heavy things.
>
> These days I keep the old back in shape and out of pain by doing
> pullups, which can sometimes be definitely be felt straightening it
> out in the same way as a chiro adjustment used to do, one armed weight
> lifts (thanks Steve :-), and occasional fast descents of steep rugged
> slopes where a bit of jumping down is required. Those seem to work by
> forcing me to make sudden balancing movements and take shock loadings
> over a more more various range of positions than repetitive excercise
> regimes manage. I suspect boulder hopping would work well too, but I
> don't have a convenient nearby boulder field :-)
>
> It appears that over the years my body has repaired some of the
> original damage by doing some vertebral fusion on its own. The last
> spine specialist to look at X-rays of it some years ago thought it had
> done a better job of that than surgeons would have managed.
>
> I'm not recommending that anyone follow my particular recipe. Back
> injuries are as various as people. I ended up discovering my own
> recipe for progressive recovery by exploring lots of things, junking
> what hurt and developing what helped. If you listen carefully and
> sympathetically to your aches and pains they will sometimes tell you
> what help your body needs in recovering from (or adapting to)
> injuries.
>
> --
> Chris Malcolm

It's not injury per se'. It's degeneration.
But your experience is a good start.

Thanks. ;-)
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

"Omelet" <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
newsmpomelet-314471.11024817072008@news.giganews.com...
> In article <6e8ohgF5tbjmU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> > I doubt it'll last just after two visits, but I'll be seeing him
>> > once
>> > per week for awhile. This will cost, but it's worth it...
>>
>> Decades ago I developed very bad back problems for which the only
>> cures offered were somewhat risky vertebral fusion surgery which I
>> declined, or repeated visits to my chiro, who was always able to make
>> me feel much better, stand up straighter, no pain, more
>> flexibility. It sometimes even lasted for a few wonderful hours...
>>
>> He said as time passed it would last longer and longer before things
>> became misaligned and started hurting again. However, since his fees
>> made it clear that this would involve trading serious physical pain
>> for serious financial pain I tried to find ways of achieving the same
>> result without his expensive assistance.
>
> Once my health insurance is used up, it'll drop to $36.00 per visit.
> This will probably be weekly. I can afford that to avoid being cut
> open. ;-) Plus I'm doing other things such as swimming, (a drastically
> underestimated and under-used form of cardio), specific torso work,
> and
> am contemplating yoga.
>
> The chiro' can't do it all. Some of it I have to get off my lazy ass
> and
> do myself. <g>
>
>>
>> What I eventually found worked well was hanging upside down and
>> wriggling in a relaxing sort of way for several seconds while
>> suspended from one leg, and then the other. I suspended myself by
>> means of a soft webbing strap looped around an ankle because that was
>> comfortable and involved no muscular effort once suspended, thus
>> letting me relax to allow things to get pulled out.
>
> Both the Chiro' and the Ortho' (who does NOT recommend surgery) have
> encouraged me to get an inversion table. I'm going to Academy this
> weekend to get one and will start using it right away.
>
>>
>> I did this every day before going to bed. I found that I could stop
>> the effect wearing off in the night if I slept on a very hard firm
>> surface. I did that by placing a small wooden door on my side of the
>> mattress and then covering it with a thick rug. I suspect that the
>> reason that worked was that people change position in their sleep in
>> response to the effect of pressure on the local weight supporting
>> points. If your bed is soft you don't move so much in your sleep.
>
> The Chiro' already discussed my sleep positioning with me. I sleep on
> a
> well padded futon (folded) so it's 1/2 the size of a full bed. I wrap
> myself around a body pillow and sleep on my side to keep my spine
> straight. Works for the most part. The fall I took in April has been
> the problem by exacerbating the issue.
>
> It's getting better, but still taking time. 4 hours sleeping in one
> position, the pain wakes me up if I'm not set right.
>
>> I
>> noticed that remaining motionless in any position for some time
>> seemed
>> to make my back worse.
>
> See above. <g>
>
>> For example sitting on a hard chair which made
>> me fidget kept my back feeling better than sitting in a soft chair
>> where I could comfortably remain motionless. It was the lack of
>> motion
>> which seemed to allow my injured back to start seizing up with
>> cramps.
>
> I experience the greatest pain attempting to commute to and from work.
> The commute is 25 to 30 minutes. Cramps hell! Shin splints. Stabbing
> pains. It sucks. Long distance driving is out without breaks to walk
> the pain out.
>
>>
>> Sleeping on a rug covered door was definitely uncomfortable and
>> seemed
>> pretty drastic, especially to my wife :-), but it was the only thing
>> which stopped my back seizing up in the night while I slept.
>
> Hard surfaces make me worse.
> But, thanks. ;-)
>>
>> The chiro was right. Slowly but surely the length of time increased
>> that my back held these temporary boosts into pain free
>> flexibility. After a few months I stopped having to do the hanging
>> every day. A few months more and I was only doing it once a week or
>> so, on demand when I stiffened up and started hurting.
>
> Therapy is therapy. It's not an overnight miracle cure. I know that.
> I've been hurting now for 12 weeks. A bit longer makes no difference.
>
>>
>> The good news is that a careful programme of back strengthening
>> walking led to my complete recovery,
>
> I started swimming this morning and will write up a specific weight
> lifting plan this weekend after I dig my dumbbell rack out of the mess
> in the den.
>
> Yoga will be figured in to it too, but that will eat into my internet
> time. <g>
>
>
>> in the sense that if I take care
>> not to push it too far my back is now capable of hiking with a heavy
>> rucksack, shifting heavy furniture, running, jumping, etc.. The bad
>> news is that it took about twelve years to get to the stage of being
>> able to run and jump and carry heavy things.
>>
>> These days I keep the old back in shape and out of pain by doing
>> pullups, which can sometimes be definitely be felt straightening it
>> out in the same way as a chiro adjustment used to do, one armed
>> weight
>> lifts (thanks Steve :-), and occasional fast descents of steep rugged
>> slopes where a bit of jumping down is required. Those seem to work by
>> forcing me to make sudden balancing movements and take shock loadings
>> over a more more various range of positions than repetitive excercise
>> regimes manage. I suspect boulder hopping would work well too, but I
>> don't have a convenient nearby boulder field :-)
>>
>> It appears that over the years my body has repaired some of the
>> original damage by doing some vertebral fusion on its own. The last
>> spine specialist to look at X-rays of it some years ago thought it
>> had
>> done a better job of that than surgeons would have managed.
>>
>> I'm not recommending that anyone follow my particular recipe. Back
>> injuries are as various as people. I ended up discovering my own
>> recipe for progressive recovery by exploring lots of things, junking
>> what hurt and developing what helped. If you listen carefully and
>> sympathetically to your aches and pains they will sometimes tell you
>> what help your body needs in recovering from (or adapting to)
>> injuries.
>>
>> --
>> Chris Malcolm
>
> It's not injury per se'. It's degeneration.
> But your experience is a good start.
>
> Thanks. ;-)
> --
> Peace! Om
>
> "Human nature seems to be to control other people
> until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

A reminder - get the McGill book and read it, and also get Robin
McKenzie's book. Understanding what's going on is a great help, and I
mean understanding from a functional, not just a "medical" point of
view.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Omelet <ompomelet@gmail.com> writes:

> In article <6e8ohgF5tbjmU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Chris Malcolm <cam@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> > I doubt it'll last just after two visits, but I'll be seeing him once
>> > per week for awhile. This will cost, but it's worth it...
>>
>> Decades ago I developed very bad back problems for which the only
>> cures offered were somewhat risky vertebral fusion surgery which I
>> declined, or repeated visits to my chiro, who was always able to make
>> me feel much better, stand up straighter, no pain, more
>> flexibility. It sometimes even lasted for a few wonderful hours...
>>
>> He said as time passed it would last longer and longer before things
>> became misaligned and started hurting again. However, since his fees
>> made it clear that this would involve trading serious physical pain
>> for serious financial pain I tried to find ways of achieving the same
>> result without his expensive assistance.
>
> Once my health insurance is used up, it'll drop to $36.00 per visit.
> This will probably be weekly. I can afford that to avoid being cut
> open. ;-) Plus I'm doing other things such as swimming, (a drastically
> underestimated and under-used form of cardio), specific torso work, and
> am contemplating yoga.
>
> The chiro' can't do it all. Some of it I have to get off my lazy ass and
> do myself. <g>
>
>>
>> What I eventually found worked well was hanging upside down and
>> wriggling in a relaxing sort of way for several seconds while
>> suspended from one leg, and then the other. I suspended myself by
>> means of a soft webbing strap looped around an ankle because that was
>> comfortable and involved no muscular effort once suspended, thus
>> letting me relax to allow things to get pulled out.
>
> Both the Chiro' and the Ortho' (who does NOT recommend surgery) have
> encouraged me to get an inversion table. I'm going to Academy this
> weekend to get one and will start using it right away.
>
>>
>> I did this every day before going to bed. I found that I could stop
>> the effect wearing off in the night if I slept on a very hard firm
>> surface. I did that by placing a small wooden door on my side of the
>> mattress and then covering it with a thick rug. I suspect that the
>> reason that worked was that people change position in their sleep in
>> response to the effect of pressure on the local weight supporting
>> points. If your bed is soft you don't move so much in your sleep.
>
> The Chiro' already discussed my sleep positioning with me. I sleep on a
> well padded futon (folded) so it's 1/2 the size of a full bed. I wrap
> myself around a body pillow and sleep on my side to keep my spine
> straight. Works for the most part. The fall I took in April has been
> the problem by exacerbating the issue.
>
> It's getting better, but still taking time. 4 hours sleeping in one
> position, the pain wakes me up if I'm not set right.
>
>> I
>> noticed that remaining motionless in any position for some time seemed
>> to make my back worse.
>
> See above. <g>
>
>> For example sitting on a hard chair which made
>> me fidget kept my back feeling better than sitting in a soft chair
>> where I could comfortably remain motionless. It was the lack of motion
>> which seemed to allow my injured back to start seizing up with cramps.
>
> I experience the greatest pain attempting to commute to and from work.
> The commute is 25 to 30 minutes. Cramps hell! Shin splints. Stabbing
> pains. It sucks. Long distance driving is out without breaks to walk
> the pain out.
>
>>
>> Sleeping on a rug covered door was definitely uncomfortable and seemed
>> pretty drastic, especially to my wife :-), but it was the only thing
>> which stopped my back seizing up in the night while I slept.
>
> Hard surfaces make me worse.
> But, thanks. ;-)
>>
>> The chiro was right. Slowly but surely the length of time increased
>> that my back held these temporary boosts into pain free
>> flexibility. After a few months I stopped having to do the hanging
>> every day. A few months more and I was only doing it once a week or
>> so, on demand when I stiffened up and started hurting.
>
> Therapy is therapy. It's not an overnight miracle cure. I know that.
> I've been hurting now for 12 weeks. A bit longer makes no difference.
>
>>
>> The good news is that a careful programme of back strengthening
>> walking led to my complete recovery,
>
> I started swimming this morning and will write up a specific weight
> lifting plan this weekend after I dig my dumbbell rack out of the mess
> in the den.
>
> Yoga will be figured in to it too, but that will eat into my internet
> time. <g>

I was going to suggest trying Pilates, but that may not be a good idea
after all:

PILATES exercises could cause more harm than good to some back-pain
sufferers, controversial research suggests.
...
Stuart McGill, professor of spine biomechanics at the University of
Waterloo in Ontario, Canada, told The Sunday Telegraph that by
targeting the core, transverse abdominal muscle, people were
potentially weakening their spines.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap...006007,00.html

--
Jim Janney

Omelet <ompomelet@gmail.com> writes:

> In article <6e75shF5iemkU1@mid.individual.net>,
> "Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> > From what googling I've done, DDD is very common. So much so that it
>> > probably explains the number of elderly humans using walkers I saw
>> > when
>> > I was waiting for that Rx refill from my main doc this morning.
>> >
>> > I don't want to end up that way. It was sad. :-(
>>
>> Well, that's a good sign.
>>
>> Part of the whole Party approach to lifting, and part of why Dr. Stuart
>> McGill likes the Party approach to lifting (read his "Ultimate Back
>> Fitness and Performance" if you haven't already) is the concept I
>> mentioned above, namely creating a stable lower back against forces
>> trying to destabilize it, paired with mobile hips and shoulders. You
>> could do a lot worse than to get Pavel's "Enter The Kettlebell" and read
>> it - even if you decide not to do the exercises, the principles involved
>> are very likely the things that can help you. The basic movements like
>> swing and press all do just this. For a starter, grab a dumbbell and do
>> a standing, one-armed Arnold press - glutes locked, lats flared, and as
>> little movement in the lumbar spine as possible while pressing - think
>> Valsalva, think deadlift, and apply those principles to your Arnold
>> press. Work the negative hard - pull the weight back down in the same
>> groove you pressed it, don't just let gravity bring it down for you.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>
> Okay, I can do those at home. I have a rack of those Octagonal
> dumbells...
>
> Thanks.

I haven't chimed in before now because I don't really have much to add
to the conversation. I don't really know anything about the
rehabilitation of bad backs.

I really do appreciate you sharing your experience with the group Om. I
personally find your reaction to your misfortune to be inspiring. If I
were in a similar situation I could only hope to respond as well as you
have.

Good luck. Although it would appear that you are intent on making your
own luck regardless.

Jason

In article <6e99b6F61bciU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> A reminder - get the McGill book and read it, and also get Robin
> McKenzie's book. Understanding what's going on is a great help, and I
> mean understanding from a functional, not just a "medical" point of
> view.
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com

Thanks. I'm storing this for when I make a book run at Hastings, or
I'll mail order it.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

In article <2pvdz4tnwj.fsf@xmission.xmission.com>,
Jim Janney <jjanney@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:

> I was going to suggest trying Pilates, but that may not be a good idea
> after all:
>
> PILATES exercises could cause more harm than good to some back-pain
> sufferers, controversial research suggests.
> ...
> Stuart McGill, professor of spine biomechanics at the University of
> Waterloo in Ontario, Canada, told The Sunday Telegraph that by
> targeting the core, transverse abdominal muscle, people were
> potentially weakening their spines.
>
> http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap...5006007,00.htm
> l
>
> --
> Jim Janney

Nope. Too high impact.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

In article <878ww075za.fsf@xmission.com>,
Jason Earl <jearl@xmission.com> wrote:

> I haven't chimed in before now because I don't really have much to add
> to the conversation. I don't really know anything about the
> rehabilitation of bad backs.
>
> I really do appreciate you sharing your experience with the group Om. I
> personally find your reaction to your misfortune to be inspiring. If I
> were in a similar situation I could only hope to respond as well as you
> have.
>
> Good luck. Although it would appear that you are intent on making your
> own luck regardless.
>
> Jason

Thanks Jason. :-) Sitting and whining about it is counter-productive.
It's better to have a plan...

I appreciate any help I can get here and hope that, down the line,
reading the thread can help others in this situation.

DDD is a VERY common problem from the research I've done on google.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

"Omelet" <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
newsmpomelet-784B73.20513217072008@news.giganews.com...
> In article <2pvdz4tnwj.fsf@xmission.xmission.com>,
> Jim Janney <jjanney@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
>
>> I was going to suggest trying Pilates, but that may not be a good
>> idea
>> after all:
>>
>> PILATES exercises could cause more harm than good to some
>> back-pain
>> sufferers, controversial research suggests.
>> ...
>> Stuart McGill, professor of spine biomechanics at the University
>> of
>> Waterloo in Ontario, Canada, told The Sunday Telegraph that by
>> targeting the core, transverse abdominal muscle, people were
>> potentially weakening their spines.
>>
>>
>> http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap...5006007,00.htm
>> l
>>
>> --
>> Jim Janney
>
> Nope. Too high impact.
> --
> Peace! Om
>
> "Human nature seems to be to control other people
> until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

I asked someone about this, who responded that, like all things, there
is "good" and "bad" Pilates. I'd say the same about yoga as well for
someone in Om's situation. Yoga, Pilates, Alexander Technique - lots of
things could be helpful or harmful, depending on how they were done.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

In article <6ebjabF69gilU1@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> "Omelet" <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
> newsmpomelet-784B73.20513217072008@news.giganews.com...
> > In article <2pvdz4tnwj.fsf@xmission.xmission.com>,
> > Jim Janney <jjanney@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I was going to suggest trying Pilates, but that may not be a good
> >> idea
> >> after all:
> >>
> >> PILATES exercises could cause more harm than good to some
> >> back-pain
> >> sufferers, controversial research suggests.
> >> ...
> >> Stuart McGill, professor of spine biomechanics at the University
> >> of
> >> Waterloo in Ontario, Canada, told The Sunday Telegraph that by
> >> targeting the core, transverse abdominal muscle, people were
> >> potentially weakening their spines.
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap...5006007,00.htm
> >> l
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jim Janney
> >
> > Nope. Too high impact.
>
> I asked someone about this, who responded that, like all things, there
> is "good" and "bad" Pilates. I'd say the same about yoga as well for
> someone in Om's situation. Yoga, Pilates, Alexander Technique - lots of
> things could be helpful or harmful, depending on how they were done.
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com

Believe it or not, swimming is really good cardio if done right.
And I happen to really enjoy it...

;-)

I'm not doing yoga yet, per se', altho' the static stretching I do
regularly to keep myself flexible might qualify.

Can you sit on the floor with your legs spread and touch your forehead
to the floor?

I can.

I'm still working on the quadricep stretches.
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

"Omelet" <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
newsmpomelet-D475FA.10554218072008@news.giganews.com...
> In article <6ebjabF69gilU1@mid.individual.net>,
> "Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> "Omelet" <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> newsmpomelet-784B73.20513217072008@news.giganews.com...
>> > In article <2pvdz4tnwj.fsf@xmission.xmission.com>,
>> > Jim Janney <jjanney@xmission.xmission.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I was going to suggest trying Pilates, but that may not be a good
>> >> idea
>> >> after all:
>> >>
>> >> PILATES exercises could cause more harm than good to some
>> >> back-pain
>> >> sufferers, controversial research suggests.
>> >> ...
>> >> Stuart McGill, professor of spine biomechanics at the
>> >> University
>> >> of
>> >> Waterloo in Ontario, Canada, told The Sunday Telegraph that by
>> >> targeting the core, transverse abdominal muscle, people were
>> >> potentially weakening their spines.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap...5006007,00.htm
>> >> l
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Jim Janney
>> >
>> > Nope. Too high impact.
>>
>> I asked someone about this, who responded that, like all things,
>> there
>> is "good" and "bad" Pilates. I'd say the same about yoga as well for
>> someone in Om's situation. Yoga, Pilates, Alexander Technique - lots
>> of
>> things could be helpful or harmful, depending on how they were done.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>
> Believe it or not, swimming is really good cardio if done right.
> And I happen to really enjoy it...
>
> ;-)

As you might know, I used to be a regular lap swimmer, and am a
lifeguard and also sometimes teach the lifeguard course at my local Y -
I'm a big fan of swimming.

> I'm not doing yoga yet, per se', altho' the static stretching I do
> regularly to keep myself flexible might qualify.
>
> Can you sit on the floor with your legs spread and touch your forehead
> to the floor?
>
> I can.

I take it you haven't looked at the pictures of me in various splits on
my web site. I can do what you asked - here's the most recent split
photo, a side split suspended between two chairs - not what you asked
but I don't have a picture of that.

http://www.kbnj.com/SuspendedSplit007.jpg

NB: Please note that, for someone with your back problems, about the
last thing I'd recommend is anything that involves forward spine bending
and, unless you're doing the stretch you describe with very flexible
hips and hamstrings, turning it into what's called a "dead" split,
you're probably rounding your back. The whole thing for you should be,
based on what you've said, stabilizing the spine, not bending it.

> I'm still working on the quadricep stretches.

I don't do much in the way of quad stretches - haven't really found the
need. I do a lunge sort of stretch some days that hits both the hip
flexors and the quads and a little of that is enough for me.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

In article <6ebugjF6dbs2U1@mid.individual.net>,
"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> I take it you haven't looked at the pictures of me in various splits on
> my web site. I can do what you asked - here's the most recent split
> photo, a side split suspended between two chairs - not what you asked
> but I don't have a picture of that.
>
> http://www.kbnj.com/SuspendedSplit007.jpg

Very impressive. :-) I'm sure you can touch your nose to the floor...
You are a regular "coach"?

>
> NB: Please note that, for someone with your back problems, about the
> last thing I'd recommend is anything that involves forward spine bending
> and, unless you're doing the stretch you describe with very flexible
> hips and hamstrings, turning it into what's called a "dead" split,
> you're probably rounding your back. The whole thing for you should be,
> based on what you've said, stabilizing the spine, not bending it.

True, but, the muscles at the base of my back need to be stretched out
somewhat. Most of that stretch is the hamstrings and hips, but there is
some rounding of the back, stretching out stiff (and sometimes sore)
lower back muscles. I also stretch the back by crossing one leg in
front of me and carefully (static) twisting to the sides.

>
> > I'm still working on the quadricep stretches.
>
> I don't do much in the way of quad stretches - haven't really found the
> need. I do a lunge sort of stretch some days that hits both the hip
> flexors and the quads and a little of that is enough for me.

I was taught to stretch the quads when I was in fencing in college for
increased leg flexibility when doing an actual lunge into your opponent.

I just fold the leg under while sitting on the mat and lean back as far
as I can. Some of the fencers I knew in college could do both legs at
the same time, and lay _flat_!
>
> -S-
> http://www.kbnj.com
--
Peace! Om

"Human nature seems to be to control other people
until they put their foot down." -- Stephan Rothstein

"Omelet" <ompomelet@gmail.com> wrote in message
newsmpomelet-04DCA3.08441519072008@news.giganews.com...
> In article <6ebugjF6dbs2U1@mid.individual.net>,
> "Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> I take it you haven't looked at the pictures of me in various splits
>> on
>> my web site. I can do what you asked - here's the most recent split
>> photo, a side split suspended between two chairs - not what you asked
>> but I don't have a picture of that.
>>
>> http://www.kbnj.com/SuspendedSplit007.jpg
>
> Very impressive. :-) I'm sure you can touch your nose to the floor...

Thank you!

> You are a regular "coach"?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Most folks would probably say I'm not
a regular anything but I do train people regularly now more than
ever, which is to say I probably do, on average, maybe 2-3 hours a week
of it.

>> NB: Please note that, for someone with your back problems, about the
>> last thing I'd recommend is anything that involves forward spine
>> bending
>> and, unless you're doing the stretch you describe with very flexible
>> hips and hamstrings, turning it into what's called a "dead" split,
>> you're probably rounding your back. The whole thing for you should
>> be,
>> based on what you've said, stabilizing the spine, not bending it.
>
> True, but, the muscles at the base of my back need to be stretched out
> somewhat. Most of that stretch is the hamstrings and hips, but there
> is
> some rounding of the back, stretching out stiff (and sometimes sore)
> lower back muscles. I also stretch the back by crossing one leg in
> front of me and carefully (static) twisting to the sides.

This is all potentially fine and potentially not, depending on exactly
what the state of your back is. I think it's there's an important but
little-discussed difference in tight lower backs - some are tight
because they're weak, and tightness can be one of the body's reactions
to weakness. In this case, stretching may provide temporary relief but
it is, to quote Pavel, like an oil change on the Titanic; the real
problem is weakness, not tightness, and the solution is strength.

>> > I'm still working on the quadricep stretches.
>>
>> I don't do much in the way of quad stretches - haven't really found
>> the
>> need. I do a lunge sort of stretch some days that hits both the hip
>> flexors and the quads and a little of that is enough for me.
>
> I was taught to stretch the quads when I was in fencing in college for
> increased leg flexibility when doing an actual lunge into your
> opponent.

That makes sense in a sport-specific way.

> I just fold the leg under while sitting on the mat and lean back as
> far
> as I can. Some of the fencers I knew in college could do both legs at
> the same time, and lay _