Great Machines (Namely, Lats!)

Free weights are best, but machines are fun, too.

What are your favorites?

Right now, I'm looking to join a gym with Nautilus equipment.

Specifically, with their Super Pullover machine, which isolates the
lats like nothing else!

All the lat exercises involve the arms way too much. I never get DOMS
in my lats from them...I get it in my arms! (Oddly enough, playing
handball vigorously has my lats sore the next day!)

But on the Nautilus Super Pullover, because the whachamacallit is in
the elbows -- the elbows rest on a pad, as opposed to hands grabbing a
handle like how other equipment manufacturers do it -- the lats are
efficiently isolated, with very little armwork involved.

Bravo!

(That's what I recall, anyway, from having used one years ago.)

Their 4-Way Neck Machine is also something fun...concentration curls
for your neck!

I also like how their Lateral Raise (mid-delt) Machine has the user
sit normally against a seat-back, as opposed to pressing the chest to
that seat-back like how other manufacturers do things.

I also find their Peck Deck Flye Machine most appropriate with elbow
pads being the "pressure point" instead of hand-grips like many
others, so that the pecs are better isolated and worked instead of
one's elbow and shoulder joints (weird that they have the user lay in
an inclined position, though).

Why don't more gyms have Nautilus machines? In particular, the Super
Pullover and, even rarer, the 4-Way Neck??

If only I had the space, I'd buy 'em myself....

Anyone in NYC and know of a gym that has those particular machines???

Their Rotary Oblique Machine is kinda weird, though...it seems set too
high, such that one's feet are almost tip-toed! I'm 5'11" and I would
have appreciated a height-adjustable seat!

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007, Prisoner at War wrote:

> Free weights are best, but machines are fun, too.
>
> What are your favorites?

....

MILK AND SQUATS!!

> Specifically, with their Super Pullover machine, which isolates the lats
> like nothing else!

Probably going to be more modern than the "STEAM ENGINE, MOTHERFUCKER, DO
YOU SPEAK IT?" version:

http://www.leeapperson.com/1newpics/1pulloverbw.jpg

Apparently, Roger Daltrey used to own one:

http://www.hirepgym.com/pages/hirep_gym_view_1.htm

There's a man who doesn't do his own hoovering, i tell you.

> All the lat exercises involve the arms way too much. I never get DOMS
> in my lats from them...I get it in my arms! (Oddly enough, playing
> handball vigorously has my lats sore the next day!)
>
> But on the Nautilus Super Pullover, because the whachamacallit is in the
> elbows -- the elbows rest on a pad, as opposed to hands grabbing a
> handle like how other equipment manufacturers do it -- the lats are
> efficiently isolated, with very little armwork involved.

Whatever floats your boat. Personally, i like the fact that pulldowns are
working my arms and back at the same time.

> Their 4-Way Neck Machine is also something fun...concentration curls for
> your neck!

Great.

> I also find their Peck Deck Flye Machine most appropriate with elbow
> pads being the "pressure point" instead of hand-grips like many others,
> so that the pecs are better isolated and worked instead of one's elbow
> and shoulder joints (weird that they have the user lay in an inclined
> position, though).

I'm no pec dec fan, but i'd agree - on the rare occasions i've used one,
this struck me as the wrong way for it to work. If you're going to do
open-chain exercises, fricking open the chain!

> Why don't more gyms have Nautilus machines? In particular, the Super
> Pullover and, even rarer, the 4-Way Neck??

Because they're ludicrously specialised bits of machinery that cost a hell
of a lot more than the free weights you'd need to get the same effect.

I mean, seriously, neck exercises? Who does neck exercises?

tom

--
Please! Undo clips before opening handle.

"Tom Anderson" <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0707111508230.31094@urchin.eart h.li...
> On Tue, 10 Jul 2007, Prisoner at War wrote:
>
>> Free weights are best, but machines are fun, too.
>>
>> What are your favorites?
>
> ...
>
> MILK AND SQUATS!!
>
>> Specifically, with their Super Pullover machine, which isolates the
>> lats like nothing else!
>
> Probably going to be more modern than the "STEAM ENGINE, MOTHERFUCKER,
> DO YOU SPEAK IT?" version:
>
> http://www.leeapperson.com/1newpics/1pulloverbw.jpg
>
> Apparently, Roger Daltrey used to own one:
>
> http://www.hirepgym.com/pages/hirep_gym_view_1.htm
>
> There's a man who doesn't do his own hoovering, i tell you.
>
>> All the lat exercises involve the arms way too much. I never get
>> DOMS in my lats from them...I get it in my arms! (Oddly enough,
>> playing handball vigorously has my lats sore the next day!)
>>
>> But on the Nautilus Super Pullover, because the whachamacallit is in
>> the elbows -- the elbows rest on a pad, as opposed to hands grabbing
>> a handle like how other equipment manufacturers do it -- the lats are
>> efficiently isolated, with very little armwork involved.
>
> Whatever floats your boat. Personally, i like the fact that pulldowns
> are working my arms and back at the same time.
>
>> Their 4-Way Neck Machine is also something fun...concentration curls
>> for your neck!
>
> Great.
>
>> I also find their Peck Deck Flye Machine most appropriate with elbow
>> pads being the "pressure point" instead of hand-grips like many
>> others, so that the pecs are better isolated and worked instead of
>> one's elbow and shoulder joints (weird that they have the user lay in
>> an inclined position, though).
>
> I'm no pec dec fan, but i'd agree - on the rare occasions i've used
> one, this struck me as the wrong way for it to work. If you're going
> to do open-chain exercises, fricking open the chain!
>
>> Why don't more gyms have Nautilus machines? In particular, the Super
>> Pullover and, even rarer, the 4-Way Neck??
>
> Because they're ludicrously specialised bits of machinery that cost a
> hell of a lot more than the free weights you'd need to get the same
> effect.
>
> I mean, seriously, neck exercises? Who does neck exercises?

FWIW, I do range of motion, joint health type neck exercises, typically
50+ reps each morning, moving my neck/head in some of the various
directions it can move, and that's 50+ reps for each move and I'm
usually doing 3 or 4 of them, so I'm spending a solid few minutes
exercising my neck. It's pretty wonderful stuff, helps loosen you up
for the day. I have to do these sorts of exercises for my hips and
lower back, but the neck ones are what actually feel like I get the most
bang for the time spent in terms of actually feeling better.

No weighted neck work though, except if you count deadlifting. And I
think a neck _machine_ is about the last thing I'd want to be using, but
then again, I'd say that for most machines so I guess I'm prejudiced.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> tom
>
> --
> Please! Undo clips before opening handle.

On Jul 11, 10:17 am, Tom Anderson <t...@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
>
>
> MILK AND SQUATS!!

Milk?

Squats are fun, I agree. It's hard to pick a favorite exercise. But
it's odd how I can think of quite a few I don't do, like lat
pulldowns, which I used to like but which were basically arm exercises
to me (the brachioradialis muscle in particular), and it was more fun
doing hammer curls for that.

> Probably going to be more modern than the "STEAM ENGINE, MOTHERFUCKER, DO
> YOU SPEAK IT?" version:
>
> http://www.leeapperson.com/1newpics/1pulloverbw.jpg

They looked cool. Too bad things always have to get a cosmetic make-
over in order to sell.

> Apparently, Roger Daltrey used to own one:

LOL...all these skinny rock stars...what do they want a gym for??

> http://www.hirepgym.com/pages/hirep_gym_view_1.htm
>
> There's a man who doesn't do his own hoovering, i tell you.

Eh?

> Whatever floats your boat. Personally, i like the fact that pulldowns are
> working my arms and back at the same time.

I used to love that, too, but then I realized that it's working my
arms much more than my back. As a matter of fact, it's **only** my
arms that get sore, never my back! So now I'm looking for
"specialization" or isolation....

> Great.

It is. Great feeling! As Ellington Darden points out, a strong neck
helps reduce sports injuries in wrestling and football (and may even
help with the odd car accident, etc.).

> I'm no pec dec fan, but i'd agree - on the rare occasions i've used one,
> this struck me as the wrong way for it to work. If you're going to do
> open-chain exercises, fricking open the chain!

Open-chain?

I was talking about how most pec decks seem to have hand-grips, thus
focusing a lot of force on the hands and elbows and shoulders, whereas
the pec decks with the elbow pads (where your arms are bent, instead
of straightened) seem more efficient at focusing most of the force or
work onto the pec muscles themselves.

I'm still curious why Nautilus designed theirs with inclined seating,
though. To mimic the freeweight incline press, which is supposed to
be the best upper-pec exercise? Seems their machine should have
adjustable seating, then, for different angles....

> Because they're ludicrously specialised bits of machinery that cost a hell
> of a lot more than the free weights you'd need to get the same effect.

Well, I just started squatting and deadlifting like two months ago,
but in all these years of doing everything else, I do not have the
bull's neck that usually goes with the Greco-Roman wrestler's physique
I otherwise do have.

> I mean, seriously, neck exercises? Who does neck exercises?

I do. I wear a size 16-17 (US) collar. Compared to the rest of my
body, I seem to have a pencil neck.

Besides, it's fun. If you like biceps curls...well, it's curls for
your neck, man! It's like sex -- more than one spot to work a woman!

> tom
>
> --
> Please! Undo clips before opening handle.

On Jul 11, 11:17 am, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>
> FWIW, I do range of motion, joint health type neck exercises, typically
> 50+ reps each morning, moving my neck/head in some of the various
> directions it can move, and that's 50+ reps for each move and I'm
> usually doing 3 or 4 of them, so I'm spending a solid few minutes
> exercising my neck.

What, exactly, do you do? Are these some kind of physical therapy-
type of exercises?

> It's pretty wonderful stuff, helps loosen you up
> for the day. I have to do these sorts of exercises for my hips and
> lower back, but the neck ones are what actually feel like I get the most
> bang for the time spent in terms of actually feeling better.

I can imagine! I really need a chiropractor or somebody knowledgeable
to massage my neck and shoulders. I want to get into this neck stuff.

> No weighted neck work though, except if you count deadlifting. And I
> think a neck _machine_ is about the last thing I'd want to be using, but
> then again, I'd say that for most machines so I guess I'm prejudiced.

Machines are fun. Smooth fixed motion...it's a different experience.
Inferior in some respects, but I like machine exercises for the unique
experience.

> -S-http://www.kbnj.com
>
> > tom
>
> > --
> > Please! Undo clips before opening handle.

"Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1184168291.323277.303490@g4g2000hsf.googlegro ups.com...
> On Jul 11, 11:17 am, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> FWIW, I do range of motion, joint health type neck exercises,
>> typically
>> 50+ reps each morning, moving my neck/head in some of the various
>> directions it can move, and that's 50+ reps for each move and I'm
>> usually doing 3 or 4 of them, so I'm spending a solid few minutes
>> exercising my neck.
>
> What, exactly, do you do? Are these some kind of physical therapy-
> type of exercises?

Keith Hobman has pointed out Internet sources for joint health exercises
before - I don't have the links handy, I'm afraid.

The basic principle is simple enough - move it or lose it. You
therefore try to put your joints through a full range of motion for high
repetitions, on the theory that this is what's best for them. Not only
does such practice teach your body that these ranges of motion are OK,
but many joints self-lubricate very nicely when subjected to high
repetitions, and there is at least some evidence that joint surface may
actually self-polish as a result of such practice. It certainly seems
to break down some of the small deposits that can form in your joints.

I base my exercises on Pavel's book, "Super Joints," see
http://www.kbnj.com/sj.htm

The book includes descriptions of several Russian joint health programs,
and then proposes a set of 17 (I think, or a thereabouts) movements to
be performed each morning, hitting all the major joints in the body. I
do about 10 of them. The first is "3 plane neck" and it's turning the
head side to side, looking straight up and straight down, and leaning
the head side to side (bring the ear towards the shoulder). I also for
a fourth movement, a "chicken neck" kind of movement where you move the
head straight forward and backwards.

The devil is in the details for this stuff, IMHO - do it the wrong way
and you can make things no better or even worse. There are basic
concepts which the book explains, about trying to elongate your neck
rather than just jam it into odd positions, for example.

One formula that's given is that you should perform each movement for as
many reps as you are years old, with the exception of problem joints, in
which case you should perform more, into the hundreds of repetitions.
Since I'm 52, that's my guideline, 52 reps or more of everything. There
are one or two for which I've found more isn't better for me so I do
less, and there are some for which I do a lot more. I also vary the
volume depending on my time and schedule as well as need, e.g., if I
only have a few minutes, I'll do less, or if I have a high-rep workout
coming up involving the shoulders and hips, I won't do tons of those
that day.

One very nice aspect of all this stuff is that it makes the perfect
warmup - the muscles get nicely used without lifting heavy weights, and
when you're done you're ready either for your workout or just to do
whatever else you have scheduled but without feeling stiff and sore.

>> It's pretty wonderful stuff, helps loosen you up
>> for the day. I have to do these sorts of exercises for my hips and
>> lower back, but the neck ones are what actually feel like I get the
>> most
>> bang for the time spent in terms of actually feeling better.
>
> I can imagine! I really need a chiropractor or somebody knowledgeable
> to massage my neck and shoulders. I want to get into this neck stuff.

You can learn to do a lot of this on your own. Consider, among other
reading, getting the Trigger Point Workbook - I got mine on amazon. com.
A bit technical but an excellent guide to finding things that need to be
massaged by showing trigger points, a list of spots you can try to see
if they reduce symptoms of tightness and pain. The interesting thing
about Trigger Point is that the symptoms often aren't felt at the
trigger point, e.g., tighteness in the shoulders or neck can result in
carpal tunnel like symptoms.

>> No weighted neck work though, except if you count deadlifting. And I
>> think a neck _machine_ is about the last thing I'd want to be using,
>> but
>> then again, I'd say that for most machines so I guess I'm prejudiced.
>>
>
> Machines are fun. Smooth fixed motion...it's a different experience.
> Inferior in some respects, but I like machine exercises for the unique
> experience.

Best of luck with the machines. I began my strength training by working
out at a gym that had a full Cybex circuit, and after 2-3 years of that,
I added deadlifts and gradually worked out of doing machines and into
free weights or bodyweight for everything, and I've never felt the need
to go back to machines.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

>> -S-http://www.kbnj.com
>>
>> > tom
>>
>> > --
>> > Please! Undo clips before opening handle.
>
>

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Prisoner at War wrote:

> On Jul 11, 10:17 am, Tom Anderson <t...@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
>
>> MILK AND SQUATS!!
>
> Milk?

White watery stuff, comes out of cows.

>> Apparently, Roger Daltrey used to own one:
>>
>> http://www.hirepgym.com/pages/hirep_gym_view_1.htm
>>
>> There's a man who doesn't do his own hoovering, i tell you.
>
> Eh?

A deliberately obscure reference.

>> Whatever floats your boat. Personally, i like the fact that pulldowns
>> are working my arms and back at the same time.
>
> I used to love that, too, but then I realized that it's working my arms
> much more than my back. As a matter of fact, it's **only** my arms that
> get sore, never my back! So now I'm looking for "specialization" or
> isolation....

I wonder if the soreness really corresponded to the amount of work the
muscles were doing. You might think it would, but these things are not
necessarily so simple - i kind of file this in with the idea that pump and
burn are good indicators of anything.

>> I'm no pec dec fan, but i'd agree - on the rare occasions i've used
>> one, this struck me as the wrong way for it to work. If you're going to
>> do open-chain exercises, fricking open the chain!
>
> Open-chain?

Fancy kinesiology term for an exercise where the point at which you apply
effort is not at the end of the limb, as opposed to closed-chain, where it
is. Dumbbell flyes are closed chain; pec dec is open. Squats and leg
presses are closed chain, leg extension is open. Closed-chain movements
are closer to functional movements like running, jumping, climbing trees,
lifting objects, etc. There's some correspondence with isolation vs
compound: compound exercises are all (?) closed-chain, and open-chain
exercises are generally isolations, although there are also plenty of
closed-chain isolations.

> I was talking about how most pec decks seem to have hand-grips, thus
> focusing a lot of force on the hands and elbows and shoulders, whereas
> the pec decks with the elbow pads (where your arms are bent, instead of
> straightened) seem more efficient at focusing most of the force or work
> onto the pec muscles themselves.

I know. I'm agreeing with you - if a machine is designed to isolate part
of your body, then the point of effort (here, the pad) should be as close
to that part as possible.

> I'm still curious why Nautilus designed theirs with inclined seating,
> though.

Is the seat inclined relative to the axis of of the levers, or just to the
floor? Is it like a normal dec tilted backwards, or a normal dec with just
the seat tilted?

> To mimic the freeweight incline press, which is supposed to be
> the best upper-pec exercise?

Seems unlikely. If both seat and levers are tilted, the biomechanics are
just the same; the only purpose to the tilt i can think of would be to
make it harder to fall out of the seat. If the seat is tilted relative to
the levers, it would shift the emphasis to the *lower* pecs - the movement
becomes a little bit more like a dip.

>> I mean, seriously, neck exercises? Who does neck exercises?
>
> I do. I wear a size 16-17 (US) collar. Compared to the rest of my
> body, I seem to have a pencil neck.
>
> Besides, it's fun. If you like biceps curls...well, it's curls for your
> neck, man! It's like sex -- more than one spot to work a woman!

Nice analogy, except doing neck curls is a bit like sensually caressing a
woman's elbow.

tom

--
mesokurtotic

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Steve Freides wrote:

> "Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1184168291.323277.303490@g4g2000hsf.googlegro ups.com...
>> On Jul 11, 11:17 am, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>
>>> FWIW, I do range of motion, joint health type neck exercises,
>>> typically 50+ reps each morning,
>>
>> What, exactly, do you do? Are these some kind of physical therapy-
>> type of exercises?
>
> I base my exercises on Pavel's book, "Super Joints,"

Heh. I think they treat that as their bible in Amsterdam.

No, wait.

Anyway, i prefer to get my joint, balance and coordination workout through
an integrated dynamical programme as outlined here:

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/napoleon

And since we're apparently in the business of making analogies to sex now,
well, prosecution rests, m'lud.

tom

--
mesokurtotic

"Tom Anderson" <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.64.0707111820280.32311@urchin.eart h.li...
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007, Steve Freides wrote:
>
>> "Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1184168291.323277.303490@g4g2000hsf.googlegro ups.com...
>>> On Jul 11, 11:17 am, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> FWIW, I do range of motion, joint health type neck exercises,
>>>> typically 50+ reps each morning,
>>>
>>> What, exactly, do you do? Are these some kind of physical therapy-
>>> type of exercises?
>>
>> I base my exercises on Pavel's book, "Super Joints,"
>
> Heh. I think they treat that as their bible in Amsterdam.
>
> No, wait.
>
> Anyway, i prefer to get my joint, balance and coordination workout
> through an integrated dynamical programme as outlined here:
>
> http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/napoleon

Brilliant - I enjoyed that!

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> And since we're apparently in the business of making analogies to sex
> now, well, prosecution rests, m'lud.
>
> tom
>
> --
> mesokurtotic

"Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1184168051.027039.32550@d55g2000hsg.googlegro ups.com...
> On Jul 11, 10:17 am, Tom Anderson <t...@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> >
> >
> > MILK AND SQUATS!!
>
> Milk?
>
> Squats are fun, I agree. It's hard to pick a favorite exercise. But
> it's odd how I can think of quite a few I don't do, like lat
> pulldowns, which I used to like but which were basically arm exercises
> to me (the brachioradialis muscle in particular), and it was more fun
> doing hammer curls for that.
>
> > Probably going to be more modern than the "STEAM ENGINE, MOTHERFUCKER,
DO
> > YOU SPEAK IT?" version:
> >
> > http://www.leeapperson.com/1newpics/1pulloverbw.jpg
>
> They looked cool. Too bad things always have to get a cosmetic make-
> over in order to sell.
>
> > Apparently, Roger Daltrey used to own one:
>
> LOL...all these skinny rock stars...what do they want a gym for??
>
> > http://www.hirepgym.com/pages/hirep_gym_view_1.htm
> >
> > There's a man who doesn't do his own hoovering, i tell you.
>
> Eh?
>
> > Whatever floats your boat. Personally, i like the fact that pulldowns
are
> > working my arms and back at the same time.
>
> I used to love that, too, but then I realized that it's working my
> arms much more than my back. As a matter of fact, it's **only** my
> arms that get sore, never my back! So now I'm looking for
> "specialization" or isolation....
>
> > Great.
>
> It is. Great feeling! As Ellington Darden points out, a strong neck
> helps reduce sports injuries in wrestling and football (and may even
> help with the odd car accident, etc.).
>
> > I'm no pec dec fan, but i'd agree - on the rare occasions i've used one,
> > this struck me as the wrong way for it to work. If you're going to do
> > open-chain exercises, fricking open the chain!
>
> Open-chain?
>
> I was talking about how most pec decks seem to have hand-grips, thus
> focusing a lot of force on the hands and elbows and shoulders, whereas
> the pec decks with the elbow pads (where your arms are bent, instead
> of straightened) seem more efficient at focusing most of the force or
> work onto the pec muscles themselves.
>
> I'm still curious why Nautilus designed theirs with inclined seating,
> though. To mimic the freeweight incline press, which is supposed to
> be the best upper-pec exercise? Seems their machine should have
> adjustable seating, then, for different angles....
>
> > Because they're ludicrously specialised bits of machinery that cost a
hell
> > of a lot more than the free weights you'd need to get the same effect.
>
> Well, I just started squatting and deadlifting like two months ago,
> but in all these years of doing everything else, I do not have the
> bull's neck that usually goes with the Greco-Roman wrestler's physique
> I otherwise do have.
>
> > I mean, seriously, neck exercises? Who does neck exercises?
>
> I do. I wear a size 16-17 (US) collar. Compared to the rest of my
> body, I seem to have a pencil neck.
>
> Besides, it's fun. If you like biceps curls...well, it's curls for
> your neck, man! It's like sex -- more than one spot to work a woman!
>
> > tom
> >
> > --
> > Please! Undo clips before opening handle.
>

What ever happened to good old neck bridges? Though this guy
(http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sonnon10.htm) says there's a better
alternative. What do wrestlers and football players do (most tend to have
rather large necks)? Back in my school days we did neck bridges (weighted
if you really want a workout!), since then I haven't done any neck exercises
nor do I feel the need to do them.

On Jul 11, 12:38 pm, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Keith Hobman has pointed out Internet sources for joint health exercises
> before - I don't have the links handy, I'm afraid.

Hmm, I'll google around, then.

> The basic principle is simple enough - move it or lose it. You
> therefore try to put your joints through a full range of motion for high
> repetitions, on the theory that this is what's best for them.

Huh? I move my neck around many times a day already...??

Besides -- what about repetitive injury stuff like Carpal Tunnel
Syndrome, only WRT the neck??

> Not only
> does such practice teach your body that these ranges of motion are OK,
> but many joints self-lubricate very nicely when subjected to high
> repetitions, and there is at least some evidence that joint surface may
> actually self-polish as a result of such practice. It certainly seems
> to break down some of the small deposits that can form in your joints.

How interesting...self-lubricate??

Are vetebrae joints?? 'Cause I have a hernia at L-7 or something,
which means that the jelly is gone, there's no lubrication or
cushioning, and somehow that's affected my nerve signals such that my
legs (really, my ass) got no power and I can't run as fast as I used
to....

> I base my exercises on Pavel's book, "Super Joints," seehttp://www.kbnj.com/sj.htm
>
> The book includes descriptions of several Russian joint health programs,
> and then proposes a set of 17 (I think, or a thereabouts) movements to
> be performed each morning, hitting all the major joints in the body. I
> do about 10 of them. The first is "3 plane neck" and it's turning the
> head side to side, looking straight up and straight down, and leaning
> the head side to side (bring the ear towards the shoulder). I also for
> a fourth movement, a "chicken neck" kind of movement where you move the
> head straight forward and backwards.
>
> The devil is in the details for this stuff, IMHO - do it the wrong way
> and you can make things no better or even worse. There are basic
> concepts which the book explains, about trying to elongate your neck
> rather than just jam it into odd positions, for example.
>
> One formula that's given is that you should perform each movement for as
> many reps as you are years old, with the exception of problem joints, in
> which case you should perform more, into the hundreds of repetitions.
> Since I'm 52, that's my guideline, 52 reps or more of everything. There
> are one or two for which I've found more isn't better for me so I do
> less, and there are some for which I do a lot more. I also vary the
> volume depending on my time and schedule as well as need, e.g., if I
> only have a few minutes, I'll do less, or if I have a high-rep workout
> coming up involving the shoulders and hips, I won't do tons of those
> that day.

Sounds a bit like morning tai-chi! Hmmm....

> One very nice aspect of all this stuff is that it makes the perfect
> warmup - the muscles get nicely used without lifting heavy weights, and
> when you're done you're ready either for your workout or just to do
> whatever else you have scheduled but without feeling stiff and sore.

Yup -- I should think so; I've noticed just that from stretching
out...I actually sweat when doing stretches! Thanks again for the
refs; I love homework!

> You can learn to do a lot of this on your own. Consider, among other
> reading, getting the Trigger Point Workbook - I got mine on amazon. com.
> A bit technical but an excellent guide to finding things that need to be
> massaged by showing trigger points, a list of spots you can try to see
> if they reduce symptoms of tightness and pain. The interesting thing
> about Trigger Point is that the symptoms often aren't felt at the
> trigger point, e.g., tighteness in the shoulders or neck can result in
> carpal tunnel like symptoms.

Wow, thanks for the references. So interesting...just the other day I
was scratching the sole of my right foot with my left hand and somehow
I did it in such a way that my right hand got to tingling, between the
thumb and index finger! And I was just wonder, right then and there,
hmm, I wonder what other weird connections there are in the body....

> Best of luck with the machines. I began my strength training by working
> out at a gym that had a full Cybex circuit, and after 2-3 years of that,
> I added deadlifts and gradually worked out of doing machines and into
> free weights or bodyweight for everything, and I've never felt the need
> to go back to machines.

Hmm, interesting. I went from calisthenics to freeweights to
machines. I still love 'em all, though of course freeweights are my
favorite.

Thanks again for all your advice, Steve.

On Jul 11, 5:00 pm, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot" <NoS...@MyEmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
> What ever happened to good old neck bridges? Though this guy
> (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sonnon10.htm) says there's a better
> alternative. What do wrestlers and football players do (most tend to have
> rather large necks)? Back in my school days we did neck bridges (weighted
> if you really want a workout!), since then I haven't done any neck exercises
> nor do I feel the need to do them.


Hey, that's interesting!

I'd never even heard of them...neck bridges?? Funny name...I wonder
if these will work....

"Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1184186271.128502.144950@57g2000hsv.googlegro ups.com...
> On Jul 11, 5:00 pm, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot" <NoS...@MyEmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > What ever happened to good old neck bridges? Though this guy
> > (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sonnon10.htm) says there's a better
> > alternative. What do wrestlers and football players do (most tend to
have
> > rather large necks)? Back in my school days we did neck bridges
(weighted
> > if you really want a workout!), since then I haven't done any neck
exercises
> > nor do I feel the need to do them.
>
>
> Hey, that's interesting!
>
> I'd never even heard of them...neck bridges?? Funny name...I wonder
> if these will work....
>

If you do them just be REAL careful not to over do it (especially when
starting out). IMO it's very easy to pull a muscle/pinch a nerve in your
neck if you go "too heavy" too quick. Start slow and use your arms to make
sure the amount of weight your neck is supporting is easily manageable.
After a couple weeks (maybe more if your neck is real weak) you should be
able to do them without your arms and then months down the road do them
weighted. I know back in high school we had to do them for 2-3 minutes
(face down, roll "up" chin-to-chest, roll down to touch nose to ground,
touch left ear, touch right ear, then "roll over" so our back was to the
ground and we were facing the ceiling and repeat the up/down/left/right.
All this was done with only touching the ground with your head and feet, no
hands/arms/knees/etc.) and usually the whole procedure was repeated 2-3
times. If the coach was in an especially pissy mood we'd have to do then
with someone sitting on us!

"Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1184185743.525594.9240@k79g2000hse.googlegrou ps.com...
> On Jul 11, 12:38 pm, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Keith Hobman has pointed out Internet sources for joint health
>> exercises
>> before - I don't have the links handy, I'm afraid.
>
> Hmm, I'll google around, then.
>
>> The basic principle is simple enough - move it or lose it. You
>> therefore try to put your joints through a full range of motion for
>> high
>> repetitions, on the theory that this is what's best for them.
>
> Huh? I move my neck around many times a day already...??

You don't move your neck through a full range of motion, though, which
is why it probably is some kind of "uncomfortable" (substitute another
word if you like) when you do things like turn all the way to one side
or the other. The idea of these exercises is that you attempt to use
the full range of motion in each plane, which is a much larger range of
motion than what you get sitting at your desk. Full range of motion is
the key here.

> Besides -- what about repetitive injury stuff like Carpal Tunnel
> Syndrome, only WRT the neck??

That's why the devil is in the details. It's possible to do these
things the wrong way and get yourself a nice overuse injury, I agree.
The concepts of lengthening your spine, opening joints, moving with
minimal muscle tension, etc. - these are what's important, and obviously
the book does a whole lot better job of explaining them than I do here.

>> Not only
>> does such practice teach your body that these ranges of motion are
>> OK,
>> but many joints self-lubricate very nicely when subjected to high
>> repetitions, and there is at least some evidence that joint surface
>> may
>> actually self-polish as a result of such practice. It certainly
>> seems
>> to break down some of the small deposits that can form in your
>> joints.
>
> How interesting...self-lubricate??

Yes. Google synovial fluid for a bit of reading on the subject, but the
idea is that these movements can help joints retain their current level
of health or even improve it. The basic program claims, as I understand
it, to retard the aging process of joints more than it claims to fix
anything, but I think, at least for someone like me, my joints, while
they may _feel_ old at times, really aren't in terrible condition, so
I'm doing what I can to stay healthy as long as possible in this regard.

> Are vetebrae joints?? 'Cause I have a hernia at L-7 or something,
> which means that the jelly is gone, there's no lubrication or
> cushioning, and somehow that's affected my nerve signals such that my
> legs (really, my ass) got no power and I can't run as fast as I used
> to....

The approach doesn't work everywhere on the body and it doesn't work for
everyone, and certainly is a joint is damaged past a certain point, then
you need to try not to use it rather than rehabilitate it. But the
lumbar spine is a whole other issue - most people advocate _not_ having
a very mobile lumbar spine, instead focusing on mobility in the hips,
shoulders, and elsewhere. BTW, I don't think there is an L-7, is there?
I thought they went up to 5 and then you're into the sacrum.

>> I base my exercises on Pavel's book, "Super Joints,"
>> seehttp://www.kbnj.com/sj.htm
>>
>> The book includes descriptions of several Russian joint health
>> programs,
>> and then proposes a set of 17 (I think, or a thereabouts) movements
>> to
>> be performed each morning, hitting all the major joints in the body.
>> I
>> do about 10 of them. The first is "3 plane neck" and it's turning
>> the
>> head side to side, looking straight up and straight down, and leaning
>> the head side to side (bring the ear towards the shoulder). I also
>> for
>> a fourth movement, a "chicken neck" kind of movement where you move
>> the
>> head straight forward and backwards.
>>
>> The devil is in the details for this stuff, IMHO - do it the wrong
>> way
>> and you can make things no better or even worse. There are basic
>> concepts which the book explains, about trying to elongate your neck
>> rather than just jam it into odd positions, for example.
>>
>> One formula that's given is that you should perform each movement for
>> as
>> many reps as you are years old, with the exception of problem joints,
>> in
>> which case you should perform more, into the hundreds of repetitions.
>> Since I'm 52, that's my guideline, 52 reps or more of everything.
>> There
>> are one or two for which I've found more isn't better for me so I do
>> less, and there are some for which I do a lot more. I also vary the
>> volume depending on my time and schedule as well as need, e.g., if I
>> only have a few minutes, I'll do less, or if I have a high-rep
>> workout
>> coming up involving the shoulders and hips, I won't do tons of those
>> that day.
>
> Sounds a bit like morning tai-chi! Hmmm....

What I do every morning, while it's mostly from things I learned from
reading "Super Joints", also includes some qigong (like tai chi), some
yoga, and even some things I learned in Tae Kwon Do (karate). It's all
good, the point is to know why you're doing each movement and perform it
paying attention to the right things. Just because there's no weight in
your hand doesn't mean moving your body requires any less attention to
form.

>> One very nice aspect of all this stuff is that it makes the perfect
>> warmup - the muscles get nicely used without lifting heavy weights,
>> and
>> when you're done you're ready either for your workout or just to do
>> whatever else you have scheduled but without feeling stiff and sore.
>
> Yup -- I should think so; I've noticed just that from stretching
> out...I actually sweat when doing stretches! Thanks again for the
> refs; I love homework!
>
>> You can learn to do a lot of this on your own. Consider, among other
>> reading, getting the Trigger Point Workbook - I got mine on amazon.
>> com.
>> A bit technical but an excellent guide to finding things that need to
>> be
>> massaged by showing trigger points, a list of spots you can try to
>> see
>> if they reduce symptoms of tightness and pain. The interesting thing
>> about Trigger Point is that the symptoms often aren't felt at the
>> trigger point, e.g., tighteness in the shoulders or neck can result
>> in
>> carpal tunnel like symptoms.
>
> Wow, thanks for the references. So interesting...just the other day I
> was scratching the sole of my right foot with my left hand and somehow
> I did it in such a way that my right hand got to tingling, between the
> thumb and index finger! And I was just wonder, right then and there,
> hmm, I wonder what other weird connections there are in the body....

Google Functional Movement Screening and you will find yet more good
things to investigate. This is my latest area of endeavor, basically
relearning/unlearning basic movement patterns to try and get rid of
compensations for weaknesses and old injuries - fascinating stuff.

>> Best of luck with the machines. I began my strength training by
>> working
>> out at a gym that had a full Cybex circuit, and after 2-3 years of
>> that,
>> I added deadlifts and gradually worked out of doing machines and into
>> free weights or bodyweight for everything, and I've never felt the
>> need
>> to go back to machines.
>
> Hmm, interesting. I went from calisthenics to freeweights to
> machines. I still love 'em all, though of course freeweights are my
> favorite.
>
> Thanks again for all your advice, Steve.

Hey, happy to be of some help.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

On Jul 11, 6:49 pm, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot" <NoS...@MyEmail.com>
wrote:
> "Prisoner at War" <prisoner_at_...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:1184186271.128502.144950@57g2000hsv.go oglegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 5:00 pm, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot" <NoS...@MyEmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > What ever happened to good old neck bridges? Though this guy
> > > (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sonnon10.htm) says there's a better
> > > alternative. What do wrestlers and football players do (most tend to
> have
> > > rather large necks)? Back in my school days we did neck bridges
> (weighted
> > > if you really want a workout!), since then I haven't done any neck
> exercises
> > > nor do I feel the need to do them.
>
> > Hey, that's interesting!
>
> > I'd never even heard of them...neck bridges?? Funny name...I wonder
> > if these will work....
>
> If you do them just be REAL careful not to over do it (especially when
> starting out). IMO it's very easy to pull a muscle/pinch a nerve in your
> neck if you go "too heavy" too quick. Start slow and use your arms to make
> sure the amount of weight your neck is supporting is easily manageable.
> After a couple weeks (maybe more if your neck is real weak) you should be
> able to do them without your arms and then months down the road do them
> weighted. I know back in high school we had to do them for 2-3 minutes
> (face down, roll "up" chin-to-chest, roll down to touch nose to ground,
> touch left ear, touch right ear, then "roll over" so our back was to the
> ground and we were facing the ceiling and repeat the up/down/left/right.
> All this was done with only touching the ground with your head and feet, no
> hands/arms/knees/etc.) and usually the whole procedure was repeated 2-3
> times. If the coach was in an especially pissy mood we'd have to do then
> with someone sitting on us!



Whoa -- thanks for the warning! I have neck and shoulder issues (last
strained something doing lateral raises, can you believe that --
lasted three days total), so that's part of the reason why I'm very
interested in neck strengthening. My posture's normally good, but
when at the keyboard I tend to hunch over and that affects things...I
hate office jobs....