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  #41  
Old 11-09-2006, 09:37 AM
TC
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?


Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
> Note that when Oprah, w/ the help of proly 40 assistants plus Bob Greene,
> went down to 110#, it was via running/training for marathons.
> IIRC, she was running 75 miles per week!!!!!!!!!
> Always on camera, of course.
> Pity the staff....
> --
> ------
> Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
>
> Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
> Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
> Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
> to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
> The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!
>
> entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
> all d'numbuhs
>
> "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1162665302.416143.215060@m73g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...
> >
> > Doug Freese wrote:
> >> "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1162590531.970699.18000@m73g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com...
> >> > Is that all you have? Watch a marathon. Watch a 5k or a 10k. Is that
> >> > all?
> >>
> >> Try it for starter, you will get to see first hand what exercise and
> >> balanced carb nutrition can do for 40+ thousand people. I guess they
> >> are all freaks who low carb. If nothing else there is visual proof but
> >> it assumes you know how to stand erect and not have your knuckles drag
> >> the ground.
> >>
> >> -DF

> >
> > So your solution is for everyone to become marathon runners to lose
> > weight. Real practical.
> >
> > TC
> >


http://www.oprah.com/health/yourbody..._350_203.jhtml

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  #42  
Old 11-09-2006, 09:37 AM
Proctologically Violated©®
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

Ergo, the weight gain/re-gain!!

But notice how she don't say shit about Bob Greene, and that whole episode.
Also, for those who think Oprah ackshooly looks pretty good, bear in mind
that she prays to the God of Technology/MakeUp more often than a muslim
prays to allah.
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY

Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!

entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162759937.205377.230320@k70g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
> Note that when Oprah, w/ the help of proly 40 assistants plus Bob Greene,
> went down to 110#, it was via running/training for marathons.
> IIRC, she was running 75 miles per week!!!!!!!!!
> Always on camera, of course.
> Pity the staff....
> --
> ------
> Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
>
> Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
> Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
> Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way*
> to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
> The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive!
>
> entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
> all d'numbuhs
>
> "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1162665302.416143.215060@m73g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...
> >
> > Doug Freese wrote:
> >> "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1162590531.970699.18000@m73g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com...
> >> > Is that all you have? Watch a marathon. Watch a 5k or a 10k. Is that
> >> > all?
> >>
> >> Try it for starter, you will get to see first hand what exercise and
> >> balanced carb nutrition can do for 40+ thousand people. I guess they
> >> are all freaks who low carb. If nothing else there is visual proof but
> >> it assumes you know how to stand erect and not have your knuckles drag
> >> the ground.
> >>
> >> -DF

> >
> > So your solution is for everyone to become marathon runners to lose
> > weight. Real practical.
> >
> > TC
> >


Oprah thinks the same way I do. Low carb and real foods.

http://www.oprah.com/health/yourbody..._350_202.jhtml

TC


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  #43  
Old 11-09-2006, 10:31 PM
Enrico C
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

On 1 Nov 2006 10:18:27 -0800, comp_n_chess@hotmail.com wrote:

> NYC XYZ wrote:
>> What makes a diet "calorie-restricted"??

>
> It's when CALORIES_EATEN < CALORIES_BURNED.
>
> CALORIES_BURNED = (Basal Metabolic Rate * Activity Factor) + (Extra
> Exercise)
>
>> They used to feed us 3K-calorie breakfasts during Army basic training.
>> Them MREs are supposed to be like 5K calories! I was in the best shape
>> of my life, despite having accrued problems like a bad back, etc.

>
> When I was in good shape, I often gulped down a protein drink before a
> climb even when I wasn't hungry. Still, the above rules are in effect.
>
> *** BMR ***
>
> Harris-Benedict (normal):
> BMR(men) = 66.473 + 5.003 x (length) + 13.752 x (weight) - 6.755 x
> (age)
> BMR(women) = 655.096 + 1.850 x (length) + 9.563 x (weight) - 4.676 x
> (age)



Here's the metric formula:

Men: BMR = 66 + ( 13.7 x weight in kilos ) + ( 5 x height in cm ) - ( 6.8 x
age in years )

66
959
865
-285,6

Women: BMR = 655 + ( 9.6 x weight in kilos ) + ( 1.8 x height in cm ) - (
4.7 x age in years )


If you are sedentary (little or no exercise) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x
1.2

If you are lightly active (light exercise/sports 1-3 days/week) :
Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.375

If you are moderatetely active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/week) :
Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.55

If you are very active (hard exercise/sports 6-7 days a week) :
Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.725

If you are extra active (very hard exercise/sports & physical job or 2x
training) : Calorie-Calculation = BMR x 1.9


> Harris-Benedict/Rosa (obese):
> BMR (men) = 88.362 + 4.799 x (length) + 13.397 x (weight) - 5.677 x
> (age);
> BMR (women) = 447.593 + 3.098 x (length) + 9.247 x (weight) - 4.330 x
> (age)
>
> There are plenty of online calculators that do this for you.
>
>> How many calories does the body need if you're staying home all day
>> reading a book or watching one of them holiday season re-run marathons
>> (Honeymooners, Star Trek, Three's Company, Godzilla)?

>
> *** Activity Factor ***
> BMR x 1.1 (sedentary) is probably appropriate.
>
>> How many calories if you go to the gym three times a week
>> weight-lifting for about an hour each session?

>
> *** Activity Factor ***
> BMR x 1.4 (light-to-moderate exercise) is probably appropriate.
>
>> Despite widespread scientific enthusiasm, the evidence that calorie
>> restriction works in humans is indirect at best.

>
> Dieting works for some, and the only alternatives are drugs and surgery.


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  #44  
Old 11-10-2006, 02:49 PM
healthiest_throat@yahoo.com
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?


TC wrote:
> JT@nowhere.com wrote:
> > On 1 Nov 2006 19:09:26 -0800, "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Doug Freese wrote:
> > >> "TC" <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > >> news:1162407122.321227.207990@f16g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> > >> > These "restricted calorie" studies are pure crap. The control groups
> > >> > are usually fed un-natural pelletized manufactured crap for food. Then
> > >> > when they feed the test group less of the crap food, they live longer
> > >> > than the control group. Then they attribute it to restricted calories.
> > >> > Hey, the less poison you eat the longer you will live. It is that
> > >> > simple. It has nothing to do with calories.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> How can anyone have an intelligent dissussion with TC when he see's
> > >> ghosts and goblins 252 days of year.
> > >>
> > >> -DF
> > >
> > >Have you read any of the studies discussed? I have.
> > >
> > >TC

> >
> > Reading and understanding are two different things.

>
> It isn't rocket science. Trust me, it isn't rocket science.


Rocket science it is not. Hunger is your gage. The trick is to
satisfy your hunger without twinkies, doughnuts, etc.

Rocket
> science has actually succeeded and has actually placed a man on the
> moon and probes on Mars. Food science has only succeeded in giving us
> the highest rates of obesity and diet related chronic disease in world
> history, which is diametrically opposite to their stated goals.
>
> I suggest you start reading these nutrition studies closely and with
> an, at least, mildly critical eye. You will get an education on what
> garbage science really is.
>
> TC


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  #45  
Old 11-10-2006, 02:49 PM
rick++
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?



> We can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and feed
> each set a different number of calories and see how it comes out 120
> years later.


It looks several people are trying thing of their own will.
They dont look particularly happy.
I gone on weight control diets for long periods of time in the sub-2K
range.
After a couple weeks of initial discomfort, it gets easy. AT that
point you
switch to a low-metabolism mode and can even stop losing weight.
Its difficult to continue this for a long time.

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  #46  
Old 11-10-2006, 04:15 PM
tunderbar@hotmail.com
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?


Doug Freyburger wrote:
> NYC XYZ wrote:
> >
> > What makes a diet "calorie-restricted"??

>
> And how do you map rat results to human results? If they even DO map.
>
> Note that rats are fed a high carb grain based diet. Reduce their feed
> 30% and they live longer. The calorie people will point at the reduced
> calorie count and say eat less. The carb people will point at the
> reduced carb count and say eat low carb. The grain intolerance
> people will look at rats and ask "mooo?" figuring rats eat grain and
> are therefore related to cattle. The vegans will point out that the
> rats
> aren't getting meat are the ones that are healthy.
>
> We can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and feed
> each set a different number of calories and see how it comes out 120
> years later.


No we can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and
feed each set a different number of calories and see how it comes out
120 years later. But we can look at the simple fact that more than 95%
of people who try to lose weight by counting calories FAIL.

Forget the calories. They are a waste of time.

TC

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  #47  
Old 11-10-2006, 04:15 PM
Bully
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

tunderbar@hotmail.com wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>> NYC XYZ wrote:
>>>
>>> What makes a diet "calorie-restricted"??

>>
>> And how do you map rat results to human results? If they even DO
>> map.
>>
>> Note that rats are fed a high carb grain based diet. Reduce their
>> feed 30% and they live longer. The calorie people will point at the
>> reduced calorie count and say eat less. The carb people will point
>> at the reduced carb count and say eat low carb. The grain
>> intolerance
>> people will look at rats and ask "mooo?" figuring rats eat grain and
>> are therefore related to cattle. The vegans will point out that the
>> rats
>> aren't getting meat are the ones that are healthy.
>>
>> We can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and
>> feed each set a different number of calories and see how it comes
>> out 120 years later.

>
> No we can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and
> feed each set a different number of calories and see how it comes out
> 120 years later. But we can look at the simple fact that more than
> 95% of people who try to lose weight by counting calories FAIL.
>
> Forget the calories. They are a waste of time.


It's the people who fail, not the calories!!!


--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss


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  #48  
Old 11-10-2006, 06:26 PM
coonskin@amestwp.com
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

"But we can look at the simple fact that more than 95% of people who try
to lose weight by counting calories FAIL.

Forget the calories. They are a waste of time."

But we can look at all people who lose weight and note that many fewer
calories were consumed regardless if they made an effort to count them
or not. Calories can be forgotten if using a loss method which doesn't
count them. What ever your present food intake reduce it by 1/3 and you
will lose weight. In the meantime of course calories are reduced too
but not counted.
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  #49  
Old 11-10-2006, 06:26 PM
DZ
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>> how do you map rat results to human results? If they even DO map.
>> We can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and
>> feed each set a different number of calories and see how it comes
>> out 120 years later.


but we can look at things like biomarkers of aging/health and
mortality rates per year at a given age.

tunderbar@hotmail.com <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote:
> No we can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and
> feed each set a different number of calories and see how it comes out
> 120 years later. But we can look at the simple fact that more than 95%
> of people who try to lose weight by counting calories FAIL.
>
> Forget the calories. They are a waste of time.


You're looking at this from the public health point of view. Ok, point
well taken. But the scientific question remains: among the subset who
adhere to CR, what are the health benefits? - where CR implies
consciously restricting calories to result in stable weight below
normal maintenance.

That question can be modified to your likeness if we start with the
most sensible diet composition you imagine - be it low carb or
whatever - and still cut calories making sure essential nutrients are
present in needed amounts, so malnutrition doesn't result.

Observational studies which simply looked at different weight
categories in the population can't answer this question. In this
respect, animal studies do increase evidence in support of CR benefits
in humans.
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  #50  
Old 11-10-2006, 06:26 PM
TC
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?


Bully wrote:
> tunderbar@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >> NYC XYZ wrote:
> >>>
> >>> What makes a diet "calorie-restricted"??
> >>
> >> And how do you map rat results to human results? If they even DO
> >> map.
> >>
> >> Note that rats are fed a high carb grain based diet. Reduce their
> >> feed 30% and they live longer. The calorie people will point at the
> >> reduced calorie count and say eat less. The carb people will point
> >> at the reduced carb count and say eat low carb. The grain
> >> intolerance
> >> people will look at rats and ask "mooo?" figuring rats eat grain and
> >> are therefore related to cattle. The vegans will point out that the
> >> rats
> >> aren't getting meat are the ones that are healthy.
> >>
> >> We can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and
> >> feed each set a different number of calories and see how it comes
> >> out 120 years later.

> >
> > No we can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and
> > feed each set a different number of calories and see how it comes out
> > 120 years later. But we can look at the simple fact that more than
> > 95% of people who try to lose weight by counting calories FAIL.
> >
> > Forget the calories. They are a waste of time.

>


> It's the people who fail, not the calories!!!


Sure. The *people*. Riiiiiight.

For every 100 people that try to lose weight by restricting calories in
their diet and burning more calories thru exercise, more than 95 of
them will fail to achieve their goals. Why is that? Why cannot smart
dedicated and sometimes desperate people not succeed in reducing their
weight by counting calories? Not all are smart and dedicated, but many
are, and they fail too. And even desperate people on VLCDs, eating
between 800 to 1200 calories per day, even they fail almost invariably.


It isn't that difficult to cut back 10 or 20% or even more off of ones
dietary caloric consumption. Especially with all the low fat products
available. And maintaining that is not that hard. I've done it. But it
certainly did not result in the weight loss expected. Millions do it,
and fail to achieve the weight loss projected. Cutting calories
consumed and increasing activities to burn calories is easy to do, and
millions do it, without achieving their weight loss goals. 95% of the
people who do it fail to achieve their goals.

If the program, as described and as applied by real people in the real
world, fails in more than 95% of cases, then it is the program that is
flawed.

You cannot possibly fault more than 95% of the people who genuinely
want to lose weight.

Statistically speaking, if the program works, it *will* work in *more*
than 95% of cases. Which happens to be the exact opposite of what
actually happens in the real world.

You would think that at least 20 or 30 or 40 or 50% would succeed. If
that were the case, I just might buy into the argument that many people
fail to follow the program and they sabotage themselves in various
ways.

But less than 5% success rate? Come on. You're dreaming. In
technicolour.

TC

>
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss


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  #51  
Old 11-10-2006, 06:26 PM
Charles
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 16:49:28 +0000 (UTC), DZ
<30354@432830745.2799933.17181.6133.1480> wrote:

>> Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>> how do you map rat results to human results? If they even DO map.
>>> We can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and
>>> feed each set a different number of calories and see how it comes
>>> out 120 years later.

>
>but we can look at things like biomarkers of aging/health and
>mortality rates per year at a given age.
>
>tunderbar@hotmail.com <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> No we can't put a bunch of humans in cages for their entire lives and
>> feed each set a different number of calories and see how it comes out
>> 120 years later. But we can look at the simple fact that more than 95%
>> of people who try to lose weight by counting calories FAIL.
>>
>> Forget the calories. They are a waste of time.

>
>You're looking at this from the public health point of view. Ok, point
>well taken. But the scientific question remains: among the subset who
>adhere to CR, what are the health benefits? - where CR implies
>consciously restricting calories to result in stable weight below
>normal maintenance.
>
>That question can be modified to your likeness if we start with the
>most sensible diet composition you imagine - be it low carb or
>whatever - and still cut calories making sure essential nutrients are
>present in needed amounts, so malnutrition doesn't result.
>
>Observational studies which simply looked at different weight
>categories in the population can't answer this question. In this
>respect, animal studies do increase evidence in support of CR benefits
>in humans.


All scientific studies and data notwithstanding, for those unfortunate
individuals with a metabolism predisposed to fast response weight
gains, the monitoring and control of caloric intake is of paramount
importance.

If caloric intake is ignored, and only a modest average intake of 250
calories a day above maintenance is ingested, the result at the end of
a twelve month period is a weight/fat gain of 26 lbs - all other
parameters remaining equal.

Have a great weekend Dmitri - you know I intend to! ;o)

TFIF!

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  #52  
Old 11-10-2006, 06:26 PM
Bully
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

TC wrote:
[...]
> But less than 5% success rate? Come on. You're dreaming. In
> technicolour.
>
> TC
>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bully
>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>
>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
>> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss


From where are you getting your stats?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss


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  #53  
Old 11-10-2006, 06:26 PM
TC
Guest
 
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Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?


Bully wrote:
> TC wrote:
> [...]
> > But less than 5% success rate? Come on. You're dreaming. In
> > technicolour.
> >
> > TC
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bully
> >> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
> >>
> >> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> >> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

>
> From where are you getting your stats?


http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/conte...l/309/6955/655

Garner DM, Wooley SC. Confronting the failure of behavioral and dietary
treatments of obesity. Clinical Psychology Review 1991;6:58-137.

Controversies in Management: Dietary treatments for obesity are
ineffective
C S Wooley, D M Garner

University of Cincinnati, College of Medicine, Cincinnati, Ohio 45267,
USA Beck Institute for Cognitive Therapy and Research, Bala Cynwood,
Pennsylvania 19001, USA Correspondence to: Dr Wooley.

It is surprising that debate continues about the effectiveness of
dietary treatments for obesity. Perhaps this is partly related to
ambiguity in the term effectiveness. It is well known that most
treatments produce temporary weight loss. But it is equally well known
that 90% to 95% of those who lose weight regain it within several
years.1 This poor outcome has led to charges that traditional
treatments for obesity should be abandoned and countercharges that it
is irresponsible to withhold treatment for such a serious problem. The
failure of reducing diets to produce lasting improvement was recently
reiterated at a National Institutes of Health consensus conference,
which also warned about the adverse effects of treatment.2

The failure of fat people to achieve a goal they seem to want - and to
want almost above all else - must now be admitted for what it is: a
failure not of those people but of the methods of treatment that are
used. It is no longer a mystery why diets have such a poor long term
record of success. Indeed the failure of obese people to become or
remain thin by "normalising" their food intake follows logically from
studies on the heritability of obesity,3 the biology of weight
regulation,4 and the physiology of energy metabolism.5

Demand for treatment is not a justification

Yet many remain enthusiastic about treatment. It could be said that the
main evidence for the value of dieting is that health professionals
continue to prescribe it. Inertia feeds on itself, failure to change
coming to serve as a silent argument that no change is needed. However,
this only partially accounts for the resistance to change among those
treating obesity. Recent findings regarding the benefits of antibiotics
in treating ulcers and the comparative outcomes of procedures for
emergency cardiac care have been rapidly translated into medical
practice. In these cases doctors have only had to adjust what they do;
in the case of obesity treatment, however, there is no replacement
procedure. The question is whether to abandon treatment, putting many
specialists out of business, in the face of relentless popular demand.
Desperate consumers are willing to bear the burden of responsibility
for failure in exchange for continuing access to treatment. This
desperation is best illustrated by Ravitch and Brolin's observation
that patients who had had obesity surgery were unwilling to consider
reversal even when it was discussed in terms of saving their lives.6

As if to avert the central question by introducing more variables, the
debate has shifted from the universal mandate for one treatment, to the
matching of available treatments (from self directed programmes to
surgery) to individual, depending on level of obesity and factors such
as diet history.7 Notably, even for patients as little as 5% overweight
the option of withholding weight loss treatment does not appear on the
decision tree. Wadden has argued that the "no treatment" option "cannot
be universally endorsed until there are definitive research data."8
This is an unusual twist in medical science: demanding proof of
effectiveness of no treatment rather than of active intervention.
Although the no treatment stance has been viewed as radical, it is
actually quite conservative. The drug industry has to show both safety
and efficacy before commercial approval of its products, and, in
general, the burden of proof lies with those advocating treatment.

Health effects of dieting

Proponents of dietary treatment point to the health risks of obesity.
Amassing evidence that weight loss would be beneficial does not make
treatment any more effective. Therapies with modest success rates are
defensibly used when the prognosis for an untreated person is poor and
treatment poses no additional risks. But in the case of dietary
treatments for obesity neither of these assumptions is clearly met.
Success rates are not even modest, and the health risks associated with
untreated obesity remain controversial, largely because in societies in
which dieting is common the effects of high weight are confounded with
the effects of weight cycling.1,9 Dieting not only fails the criterion
of being without risk but has been implicated in increased morbidity
and mortality in several large studies.1,9,10 Dieting often has
negative effects on psychosocial functioning and can lead to eating
disorders such as the binge eating disorder and even bulimia nervosa.11
Finally, dietary treatments are costly, unpleasant, and, when they
fail, tend to damage self esteem.

Treat the patient not obesity

Of course obese patients should be treated for illnesses and injuries
like everyone else. They should be counselled to eat a healthy balanced
diet and to get appropriate amounts of exercise. They should be treated
for the emotional disorders they have and not, as is so often the case,
ones they do not have. They should be treated for eating disorders such
as binge eating, if they have them. Some must be helped to stop chronic
overeating caused by despair over repeated failure. Some will need help
in establishing "normal" eating patterns after decades of diets and
diet rebound. They should be helped to deal with the social and
emotional implications of remaining fat and to improve their body
image. One of the highest priorities should be to protect them from
blame for their condition and the enormous costs resulting from fat
prejudice.

Gotmaker et al recently put the costs of prejudice in terms that
everyone can understand: $6710 (pounds sterling 4470) a year in lost
earnings, as well as fewer years of education and a reduced chance of
marriage for American women in the top 5% of weight for height.12 Many
previous studies have documented discrimination in admission to
colleges, employment, promotion, access to housing, and attribution of
personality traits.11,13 In a commentary Stunkard and Sorensen
criticised the medical profession for being "among the chief offenders"
in the perpetuation of prejudice and issued a "call to action against
the stigmatisation of obesity."14

But how? Prejudice is revived daily in the routine interactions of
doctor and patient in which patients are offered dietary treatments and
fail to benefit from them. This ongoing failure demands a culprit:
either the treatment is flawed or the patient is flawed, failing to
comply with the appropriate remedy. As the more credible medical
profession is refusing to blame its prescriptions patients are left to
absorb the stigma of failure.

We should stop offering ineffective treatments aimed at weight loss.
Researchers who think they have invented a better mousetrap should test
it in controlled research before setting out their bait for the entire
population. Only by admitting that our treatments do not work - and
showing that we mean it by refraining from offering them - can we begin
to undo a century of recruiting fat people for failure.

***

TC

>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss


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  #54  
Old 11-10-2006, 06:26 PM
Bully
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

TC wrote:
[...]
OK, I didn't realise we were talking about people who are obese. Reducing
kcals will never work for the majority of obese people unless their
underlying psychological problems are addressed. Simple really !

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss


Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 11-10-2006, 11:07 PM
TC
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?


Bully wrote:
> TC wrote:
> [...]
> OK, I didn't realise we were talking about people who are obese. Reducing
> kcals will never work for the majority of obese people unless their
> underlying psychological problems are addressed. Simple really !
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss


Playing the psychological card now are we? I see. 95% of the people are
too mentally unfit to be able to maintain enough calorie restriction to
lose weight.

Yeah. Sure. Riiiiiiight.

TC

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  #56  
Old 11-10-2006, 11:07 PM
Bully
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

TC wrote:
> Bully wrote:
>> TC wrote:
>> [...]
>> OK, I didn't realise we were talking about people who are obese.
>> Reducing kcals will never work for the majority of obese people
>> unless their underlying psychological problems are addressed. Simple
>> really !
>>
>> --
>> Bully
>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>
>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
>> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

>
> Playing the psychological card now are we? I see. 95% of the people
> are too mentally unfit to be able to maintain enough calorie
> restriction to lose weight.
>
> Yeah. Sure. Riiiiiiight.
>
> TC


So you're telling me anyone who continues to overeat to the point where they
are obese has got all his/her marbles???

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss


Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 11-10-2006, 11:07 PM
TC
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?


Bully wrote:
> TC wrote:
> > Bully wrote:
> >> TC wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> OK, I didn't realise we were talking about people who are obese.
> >> Reducing kcals will never work for the majority of obese people
> >> unless their underlying psychological problems are addressed. Simple
> >> really !
> >>
> >> --
> >> Bully
> >> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
> >>
> >> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> >> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

> >
> > Playing the psychological card now are we? I see. 95% of the people
> > are too mentally unfit to be able to maintain enough calorie
> > restriction to lose weight.
> >
> > Yeah. Sure. Riiiiiiight.
> >
> > TC

>
> So you're telling me anyone who continues to overeat to the point where they
> are obese has got all his/her marbles???
>
> --
> Bully


You are an idiot. I get so tired of the low IQs around here.

That is utterly stupid. How can someone as stupid as you sit there and
throw out these inanities. You must be mental yourself to make such
intellectually challenged statements in a public forum. Moron.

There are millions who willingly and enthusiastically cut calories to
lose weight and end up gaining weight. Remember the 95% of people who
try to lose weight cutting calories and fail? These people do not
"continue to overeat to the point where they are obese". They become
obese doing exactly what they are told to do in order to to lose
weight. The calorie counting actually leads either to little or no
weight loss or, in most cases, to more weight gain.

Cutting fat and ignoring carbs leads to weight gain.

Hence the simple concept that counting calories don't work. My guess is
that the 5% who do succeed, succeed, only because they are physically
ill or they just happen to accidentally cut carbs while cutting
calories. I don't think that the 5% that do succeed succeed because
they cut calories but in spite of cutting calories.

TC

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  #58  
Old 11-10-2006, 11:07 PM
Bully
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

TC wrote:
> Bully wrote:
>> TC wrote:
>>> Bully wrote:
>>>> TC wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>> OK, I didn't realise we were talking about people who are obese.
>>>> Reducing kcals will never work for the majority of obese people
>>>> unless their underlying psychological problems are addressed.
>>>> Simple really !
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bully
>>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>>>
>>>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
>>>> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
>>>
>>> Playing the psychological card now are we? I see. 95% of the people
>>> are too mentally unfit to be able to maintain enough calorie
>>> restriction to lose weight.
>>>
>>> Yeah. Sure. Riiiiiiight.
>>>
>>> TC

>>
>> So you're telling me anyone who continues to overeat to the point
>> where they are obese has got all his/her marbles???
>>
>> --
>> Bully

>
> You are an idiot. I get so tired of the low IQs around here.


Well fuck off elsewhere then, douchebag!

[...snipped load of old tosh re. CARBS are the one true EVIL...]


--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss


Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 11-10-2006, 11:07 PM
Bully
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

TC wrote:
> Bully wrote:
>> TC wrote:
>>> Bully wrote:
>>>> TC wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>> OK, I didn't realise we were talking about people who are obese.
>>>> Reducing kcals will never work for the majority of obese people
>>>> unless their underlying psychological problems are addressed.
>>>> Simple really !
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bully
>>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>>>
>>>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
>>>> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
>>>
>>> Playing the psychological card now are we? I see. 95% of the people
>>> are too mentally unfit to be able to maintain enough calorie
>>> restriction to lose weight.
>>>
>>> Yeah. Sure. Riiiiiiight.
>>>
>>> TC

>>
>> So you're telling me anyone who continues to overeat to the point
>> where they are obese has got all his/her marbles???
>>
>> --
>> Bully

>
> You are an idiot. I get so tired of the low IQs around here.
>
> That is utterly stupid. How can someone as stupid as you sit there and
> throw out these inanities. You must be mental yourself to make such
> intellectually challenged statements in a public forum. Moron.
>
> There are millions who willingly and enthusiastically cut calories to
> lose weight and end up gaining weight. Remember the 95% of people who
> try to lose weight cutting calories and fail? These people do not
> "continue to overeat to the point where they are obese". They become
> obese doing exactly what they are told to do in order to to lose
> weight. The calorie counting actually leads either to little or no
> weight loss or, in most cases, to more weight gain.
>
> Cutting fat and ignoring carbs leads to weight gain.
>
> Hence the simple concept that counting calories don't work. My guess
> is that the 5% who do succeed, succeed, only because they are
> physically ill or they just happen to accidentally cut carbs while
> cutting calories. I don't think that the 5% that do succeed succeed
> because they cut calories but in spite of cutting calories.
>
> TC


p.s. wanker!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss


Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 11-10-2006, 11:07 PM
Bully
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

Bully wrote:
> TC wrote:
>> Bully wrote:
>>> TC wrote:
>>>> Bully wrote:
>>>>> TC wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> OK, I didn't realise we were talking about people who are obese.
>>>>> Reducing kcals will never work for the majority of obese people
>>>>> unless their underlying psychological problems are addressed.
>>>>> Simple really !
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bully
>>>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>>>>>
>>>>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind
>>>>> don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
>>>>
>>>> Playing the psychological card now are we? I see. 95% of the people
>>>> are too mentally unfit to be able to maintain enough calorie
>>>> restriction to lose weight.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah. Sure. Riiiiiiight.
>>>>
>>>> TC
>>>
>>> So you're telling me anyone who continues to overeat to the point
>>> where they are obese has got all his/her marbles???
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bully

>>
>> You are an idiot. I get so tired of the low IQs around here.
>>
>> That is utterly stupid. How can someone as stupid as you sit there
>> and throw out these inanities. You must be mental yourself to make
>> such intellectually challenged statements in a public forum. Moron.
>>
>> There are millions who willingly and enthusiastically cut calories to
>> lose weight and end up gaining weight. Remember the 95% of people who
>> try to lose weight cutting calories and fail? These people do not
>> "continue to overeat to the point where they are obese". They become
>> obese doing exactly what they are told to do in order to to lose
>> weight. The calorie counting actually leads either to little or no
>> weight loss or, in most cases, to more weight gain.
>>
>> Cutting fat and ignoring carbs leads to weight gain.
>>
>> Hence the simple concept that counting calories don't work. My guess
>> is that the 5% who do succeed, succeed, only because they are
>> physically ill or they just happen to accidentally cut carbs while
>> cutting calories. I don't think that the 5% that do succeed succeed
>> because they cut calories but in spite of cutting calories.
>>
>> TC

>
> p.s. wanker!


Thanks for the sig file!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"There are millions who willingly and enthusiastically cut calories to
lose weight and end up gaining weight. " - TC


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  #61  
Old 11-10-2006, 11:07 PM
David Cohen
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?


"Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote
> Bully wrote:
>> TC wrote:
>>> Bully wrote:
>>>> TC wrote:
>>>>> Bully wrote:
>>>>>> TC wrote:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> OK, I didn't realise we were talking about people who are obese.
>>>>>> Reducing kcals will never work for the majority of obese people
>>>>>> unless their underlying psychological problems are addressed.
>>>>>> Simple really !
>>>>>
>>>>> Playing the psychological card now are we? I see. 95% of the people
>>>>> are too mentally unfit to be able to maintain enough calorie
>>>>> restriction to lose weight.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah. Sure. Riiiiiiight.


>>>> So you're telling me anyone who continues to overeat to the point
>>>> where they are obese has got all his/her marbles???
>>>
>>> You are an idiot. I get so tired of the low IQs around here.
>>>
>>> That is utterly stupid. How can someone as stupid as you sit there
>>> and throw out these inanities. You must be mental yourself to make
>>> such intellectually challenged statements in a public forum. Moron.
>>>
>>> There are millions who willingly and enthusiastically cut calories to
>>> lose weight and end up gaining weight. Remember the 95% of people who
>>> try to lose weight cutting calories and fail? These people do not
>>> "continue to overeat to the point where they are obese". They become
>>> obese doing exactly what they are told to do in order to to lose
>>> weight. The calorie counting actually leads either to little or no
>>> weight loss or, in most cases, to more weight gain.
>>>
>>> Cutting fat and ignoring carbs leads to weight gain.
>>>
>>> Hence the simple concept that counting calories don't work. My guess
>>> is that the 5% who do succeed, succeed, only because they are
>>> physically ill or they just happen to accidentally cut carbs while
>>> cutting calories. I don't think that the 5% that do succeed succeed
>>> because they cut calories but in spite of cutting calories.

>
> Thanks for the sig file!
>
> "There are millions who willingly and enthusiastically cut calories to
> lose weight and end up gaining weight. " - TC


I thought his "Cutting fat and ignoring carbs leads to weight gain." was at
least as moronic, but, your taste in moronic .sig files may vary.

David


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  #62  
Old 11-10-2006, 11:07 PM
Curt
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

Bully wrote:
[...]

> Well fuck off elsewhere then, douchebag!
>
> [...snipped load of old tosh re. CARBS are the one true EVIL...]


If there's a list of true evils about then I suspect that cross-posting
is on there as well as name calling and cursing. Don't get me wrong - I
lub to curse, however I realize the error in that as a habit. Likewise
I've been known to name call occasionally, however, I do try to avoid
cross-posting.

And carbs, eh? So far today, I've consumed about 30 grams in my
oatmeal, maybe 5 grams in some sugar free strawberry jelly dumped in
the mix, and another 6 grams or so in that half cup of fat free milk I
used to nuke the Quaker Oats.

Not a big food day here.

Oh, what's in a slice of cheese? I threw the wrapper away when I opened
the package.

I've never been a big eater and that combined with skinny genetics has
kept me on the slight side of HYOOOG. Although I did have a 20-ounce
steak at Outback recently, sweet potato, and steamed veggies. Rockin'.

> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
> matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss


Anyway, how can someone who quotes Dr. Seuss be such a... "douchebag"
himself? Neil, ligthen up.

--
Curt

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  #63  
Old 11-10-2006, 11:07 PM
TC
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?


Bully wrote:
> Bully wrote:
> > TC wrote:
> >> Bully wrote:
> >>> TC wrote:
> >>>> Bully wrote:
> >>>>> TC wrote:
> >>>>> [...]
> >>>>> OK, I didn't realise we were talking about people who are obese.
> >>>>> Reducing kcals will never work for the majority of obese people
> >>>>> unless their underlying psychological problems are addressed.
> >>>>> Simple really !
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Bully
> >>>>> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind
> >>>>> don't matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
> >>>>
> >>>> Playing the psychological card now are we? I see. 95% of the people
> >>>> are too mentally unfit to be able to maintain enough calorie
> >>>> restriction to lose weight.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yeah. Sure. Riiiiiiight.
> >>>>
> >>>> TC
> >>>
> >>> So you're telling me anyone who continues to overeat to the point
> >>> where they are obese has got all his/her marbles???
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Bully
> >>
> >> You are an idiot. I get so tired of the low IQs around here.
> >>
> >> That is utterly stupid. How can someone as stupid as you sit there
> >> and throw out these inanities. You must be mental yourself to make
> >> such intellectually challenged statements in a public forum. Moron.
> >>
> >> There are millions who willingly and enthusiastically cut calories to
> >> lose weight and end up gaining weight. Remember the 95% of people who
> >> try to lose weight cutting calories and fail? These people do not
> >> "continue to overeat to the point where they are obese". They become
> >> obese doing exactly what they are told to do in order to to lose
> >> weight. The calorie counting actually leads either to little or no
> >> weight loss or, in most cases, to more weight gain.
> >>
> >> Cutting fat and ignoring carbs leads to weight gain.
> >>
> >> Hence the simple concept that counting calories don't work. My guess
> >> is that the 5% who do succeed, succeed, only because they are
> >> physically ill or they just happen to accidentally cut carbs while
> >> cutting calories. I don't think that the 5% that do succeed succeed
> >> because they cut calories but in spite of cutting calories.
> >>
> >> TC

> >
> > p.s. wanker!

>
> Thanks for the sig file!
>
> --
> Bully
> Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
>
> "There are millions who willingly and enthusiastically cut calories to
> lose weight and end up gaining weight. " - TC


Hey, a 95% failure rate is not something you can ignore. Unless you are
an idiot, then anything is possible.

TC

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  #64  
Old 11-11-2006, 09:30 AM
Andrzej Rosa
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

Dnia 2006-11-10 TC napisa³(a):
>
> Bully wrote:
>
>> It's the people who fail, not the calories!!!

>
> Sure. The *people*. Riiiiiight.
>
> For every 100 people that try to lose weight by restricting calories in
> their diet and burning more calories thru exercise, more than 95 of
> them will fail to achieve their goals. Why is that?


You have way too cheap gas, and next to no sidewalks.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R
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  #65  
Old 11-11-2006, 09:30 AM
DZ
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

TC <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Bully wrote:
>> So you're telling me anyone who continues to overeat to the point
>> where they are obese has got all his/her marbles???

>
> You are an idiot. I get so tired of the low IQs around here.


If there is 1% chance of being called an idiot by Tom,
and there is 1% chance of being called an idiot by Jerry, then
what is my total chance of being called an idiot?

Dizzy
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  #66  
Old 11-11-2006, 09:30 AM
Del Cecchi
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?


"DZ" <32147@1220427494.1808727481.26178.12172.30344> wrote in message
news:14826@237331769.2547614021.2438.19617.4608...
> TC <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Bully wrote:
>>> So you're telling me anyone who continues to overeat to the point
>>> where they are obese has got all his/her marbles???

>>
>> You are an idiot. I get so tired of the low IQs around here.

>
> If there is 1% chance of being called an idiot by Tom,
> and there is 1% chance of being called an idiot by Jerry, then
> what is my total chance of being called an idiot?
>
> Dizzy


100 percent. If you are an idiot someone will notice eventually.


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  #67  
Old 11-11-2006, 09:30 AM
DZ
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Just How Many Calories, Then?

Del Cecchi <delcecchiofthenorth@gmail.com> wrote:
> "DZ" wrote:
>> TC <tunderbar@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Bully wrote:
>>>> So you're telling me anyone who continues to overeat to the point
>>>> where they are obese has got all his/her marbles???
>>>
>>> You are an idiot. I get so tired of the low IQs around here.

>>
>> If there is 1% chance of being called an idiot by Tom,
>> and there is 1% chance of being called an idiot by Jerry, then
>> what is my total chance of being called an idiot?
>>

> 100 percent. If you are an idiot someone will notice eventually.


Eventually?! I thought it would be more like within minutes.
But let's stick to the conditions as stated in the problem.
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  #68  
Old 11-11-2006, 09:30 AM
Andrzej Rosa
Guest