Knees and Squats :(

Hey all,

I have been a long-time reader of this group.

After a long layoff working out, I have started back in doing medium
to high-intensity cardio and bodyweight exercises (bodyweight squats,
pushups, pullups, crunches etc). I am doing this as prep for going
back into training MMA / BJJ in May/June.

My question: I have never done a whole lot of squats before seriously.
I have done a little weight in the gym (several years ago) but was
always too chickenshit WRT my form and possible injuries to push the
weight up at all.

The critique of my squat by those knowledgeable has told me that I
lack hamstring flexibility...which causes my tailbone to tuck under at
the bottom (near parallel).

So question 1: What can i do to increase ham flexibility so I can go
to paralell and beyond?

and

Question 2: I have been doing sets of 20-rep bodyweight squats to
parallel (4-5 sets per workout). Recently I have noticed that my left
knee has been making a light popping sound, and then, near the end of
the workout, developed a sharp pain.

To which I am thinking, GREAT. WTF....I am only doing bodyweight
squats. My technique can't be THAT off.

My knee is exhibiting this same behavior whether I am doing narrow
stance or wider, angled-out.

It's not like I'm old (24). I did run track and cross country in high
school and stopped because of knee pain (mostly, I think in
retrospect, due eto the fact that I was not doing full body workouts
along with running, and so think the the pain was a result of muscle
imbalance...)

Any advice, suggestions etc muchly appreciated

<thirtyplus@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1177552053.454216.98300@t38g2000prd.googlegro ups.com...
> Hey all,
>
> I have been a long-time reader of this group.
>
> After a long layoff working out, I have started back in doing medium
> to high-intensity cardio and bodyweight exercises (bodyweight squats,
> pushups, pullups, crunches etc). I am doing this as prep for going
> back into training MMA / BJJ in May/June.
>
> My question: I have never done a whole lot of squats before seriously.
> I have done a little weight in the gym (several years ago) but was
> always too chickenshit WRT my form and possible injuries to push the
> weight up at all.
>
> The critique of my squat by those knowledgeable has told me that I
> lack hamstring flexibility...which causes my tailbone to tuck under at
> the bottom (near parallel).
>
> So question 1: What can i do to increase ham flexibility so I can go
> to paralell and beyond?

Barbell stiff-legged good mornings. Start bodyweight only, focus on
locking the lower back while pushing the hips back.

Kettlebell swings will also take care of this very nicely, but no one
around here seems to like it when I say that. See my site for more on
this one.

Last but certainly not least, you can work contract/relax protocol using
the actual squat itself. Again, bodyweight is fine or a light weight,
lock your lower back where you can it, get down as far as you can that
way, inhale and tighten everything you can, especially your hamstrings,
for a few seconds, then exhale and relax, and try to sink a bit lower by
keeping your back still locked and stretching the hamstrings.

> and
>
> Question 2: I have been doing sets of 20-rep bodyweight squats to
> parallel (4-5 sets per workout). Recently I have noticed that my left
> knee has been making a light popping sound, and then, near the end of
> the workout, developed a sharp pain.
>
> To which I am thinking, GREAT. WTF....I am only doing bodyweight
> squats. My technique can't be THAT off.
>
> My knee is exhibiting this same behavior whether I am doing narrow
> stance or wider, angled-out.

You squatting with your heels down or on the balls of your feet?

> It's not like I'm old (24). I did run track and cross country in high
> school and stopped because of knee pain (mostly, I think in
> retrospect, due eto the fact that I was not doing full body workouts
> along with running, and so think the the pain was a result of muscle
> imbalance...)

Running is notorious for giving one tight hamstrings.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> Any advice, suggestions etc muchly appreciated
>

In news:1177552053.454216.98300@t38g2000prd.googlegro ups.com,
thirtyplus@gmail.com <thirtyplus@gmail.com> typed:
> Hey all,
>
> I have been a long-time reader of this group.
>
> After a long layoff working out, I have started back in doing medium
> to high-intensity cardio and bodyweight exercises (bodyweight squats,
> pushups, pullups, crunches etc). I am doing this as prep for going
> back into training MMA / BJJ in May/June.
>
> My question: I have never done a whole lot of squats before seriously.
> I have done a little weight in the gym (several years ago) but was
> always too chickenshit WRT my form and possible injuries to push the
> weight up at all.
>
> The critique of my squat by those knowledgeable has told me that I
> lack hamstring flexibility...which causes my tailbone to tuck under at
> the bottom (near parallel).

It's highly unlikely that hamstring flexibility is the issue here (I have
chronically tight hammies & can squat ass to grass with no problem]. Glutes,
quads & your form in general are more likely to be the limiting factors. Has
anyone got the Dan John seminar link that will show how to work on squat
form?

>
> So question 1: What can i do to increase ham flexibility so I can go
> to paralell and beyond?

Can you squat below parallel without any weight on your shoulders?

[...]

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

On Apr 25, 10:47 pm, "thirtyp...@gmail.com" <thirtyp...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> So question 1: What can i do to increase ham flexibility so I can go
> to paralell and beyond?

Overhead squats helped a bunch, both with ham flexibility and squat
form. And they are a very good warmup.

> Question 2: I have been doing sets of 20-rep bodyweight squats to
> parallel (4-5 sets per workout). Recently I have noticed that my left
> knee has been making a light popping sound, and then, near the end of
> the workout, developed a sharp pain.
>
> To which I am thinking, GREAT. WTF....I am only doing bodyweight
> squats. My technique can't be THAT off.
>
> My knee is exhibiting this same behavior whether I am doing narrow
> stance or wider, angled-out.
>
> It's not like I'm old (24). I did run track and cross country in high
> school and stopped because of knee pain (mostly, I think in
> retrospect, due eto the fact that I was not doing full body workouts
> along with running, and so think the the pain was a result of muscle
> imbalance...)
>
> Any advice, suggestions etc muchly appreciated

My knee troubles while squatting were due to crashing down into a
deep squat without activating hams and glutes, and using tendon
rebound to get out of the hole. Don´t. Again, overhead squats, and an
emphasis in sinking between your legs, instead of folding like an
accordian, helped me.

Check this video on squat form by Dan John:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...81301858251744

good luck
gluck

On Apr 25, 7:25 pm, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:

> Kettlebell swings will also take care of this very nicely, but no one
> around here seems to like it when I say that. See my site for more on
> this one.

Thanks, I like kettlebells, have seen friends use them to good effect,
and do plan to start using them as soon as I can afford them. The anti-
kettlebell MFW doctrine is almost legendary.

> You squatting with your heels down or on the balls of your feet?

Heels down. In fact I squat so far back on my heels the ball is almost
not touching....I unbalance backwards (like almost falling) a lot. I
should probably lean forward a bit.

Thanks for the other suggestions.


>Can you squat below parallel without any weight on your shoulders?

Yup. Can go ass to grass, no pain, I'm just not used to it. However I
did more reading on squats last night and it seems that working full
ROM is probably better for the joints and, in fact, stopping at
parallel is probably the most disruptive for the joint.

Thanks all for other suggestions...and the video link. Cheers.

On 26 Apr 2007 18:38:53 -0700, "thirtyplus@gmail.com"
<thirtyplus@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Apr 25, 7:25 pm, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> Kettlebell swings will also take care of this very nicely, but no one
>> around here seems to like it when I say that. See my site for more on
>> this one.
>
>Thanks, I like kettlebells, have seen friends use them to good effect,
>and do plan to start using them as soon as I can afford them. The anti-
>kettlebell MFW doctrine is almost legendary.
>
>> You squatting with your heels down or on the balls of your feet?
>
>Heels down. In fact I squat so far back on my heels the ball is almost
>not touching....I unbalance backwards (like almost falling) a lot. I
>should probably lean forward a bit.
>
>Thanks for the other suggestions.
>
>
>>Can you squat below parallel without any weight on your shoulders?
>
>Yup. Can go ass to grass, no pain, I'm just not used to it. However I
>did more reading on squats last night and it seems that working full
>ROM is probably better for the joints and, in fact, stopping at
>parallel is probably the most disruptive for the joint.
>
>Thanks all for other suggestions...and the video link. Cheers.

I found just squatting down and holding the position for a few minutes
helps with flexibility issues.

<thirtyplus@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1177637933.824644.74970@t39g2000prd.googlegro ups.com...
> On Apr 25, 7:25 pm, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> Kettlebell swings will also take care of this very nicely, but no one
>> around here seems to like it when I say that. See my site for more
>> on
>> this one.
>
> Thanks, I like kettlebells, have seen friends use them to good effect,
> and do plan to start using them as soon as I can afford them. The
> anti-
> kettlebell MFW doctrine is almost legendary.

Proper form on the kettlebell swing will both strengthen and stretch the
hamstrings for most people - it certainly did for me.

>> You squatting with your heels down or on the balls of your feet?
>
> Heels down. In fact I squat so far back on my heels the ball is almost
> not touching....I unbalance backwards (like almost falling) a lot. I
> should probably lean forward a bit.
>
> Thanks for the other suggestions.
>
>
>>Can you squat below parallel without any weight on your shoulders?
>
> Yup. Can go ass to grass, no pain, I'm just not used to it. However I
> did more reading on squats last night and it seems that working full
> ROM is probably better for the joints and, in fact, stopping at
> parallel is probably the most disruptive for the joint.
>
> Thanks all for other suggestions...and the video link. Cheers.

The idea of trying squat variations like the overhead squat sounds good
to me, too. Front squat as well.

A good one for keeping the back from rounding is the wall squat - face a
wall in your normal squat stance and squat to below parallel, then keep
trying to move in until your toes are touching the wall. If you don't
learn to extend your spine in the right way, you won't be able to do it.
An important detail is to try to preserve the normal width and turnout
of your own squat stance - you can cheat and make this easier by turning
your feet out more.

A good thing to keep in mind is that what's potentially risky for your
back isn't just simply rounding or not. When, e.g., the load is more
vertical, the danger in rounding is much less. It's when the back gets
closer to horizontal that shearing forces increase. It's also worth
noting that many great lifters manage to round their backs while moving
heavy weights. The key here, as I understand it, is in distributing the
load across as much of the spine as possible. McGill talks about the
"hinge" as an issue in back injuries, where someone has a combination of
strong and weak areas in their spine and the back will therefore tend to
bend little if at all in the strong areas, placing too much of the load
in the weak areas.

I'm saying all this because you don't want to necessarily think your
ability to squat rock bottom with some lower back rounding is completely
bad - it's not. Having a more complete understanding of the issues
involved will hopefully help you make intelligent choices along the way.
McGills's book

http://www.backfitpro.com/ultbackbook.htm

is highly recommended reading on the subject. In your place, I'd give
the barbell overhead and front squats priority in your training for a
while and see how they work for you, and also use the wall squat (which
is explained very well in Pavel's "Strength Stretching"
http://www.kbnj.com/ss.htm ) a try as a warmup exercise.

All just my opinions, your mileage may vary, and all that.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

On 26 Apr 2007 18:38:53 -0700, "thirtyplus@gmail.com"
<thirtyplus@gmail.com> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>On Apr 25, 7:25 pm, "Steve Freides" <s...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> Kettlebell swings will also take care of this very nicely, but no one
>> around here seems to like it when I say that. See my site for more on
>> this one.
>
>Thanks, I like kettlebells, have seen friends use them to good effect,
>and do plan to start using them as soon as I can afford them. The anti-
>kettlebell MFW doctrine is almost legendary.
>
Basically it comes down the fact that the weakest people in MFW use
kettlebells. The strongest people use regular dumbbells and barbells.
Hell, the strongest people I know will go years without touching even
a dumbbell. I can't remember the last time I saw Angela Simons or
Shawn Cain pick up a dumbbell.

I can tell you all the exercises Shawn does. For squats, he squats
raw and with a suit when training for a meet or at the end of a
training cycle. Occasionally, he'll do raw pause squats. For bench,
he does raw bench and shirted bench. Occassionally he does board
presses and close grip board presses. For deadlifts, he does his
regular sumo deadlifts and occasionally he does stiff legs. He'll
sometimes do barbell curls on deadlift days with the regular 45 pound
straight bar and go into the mid hundreds for weight. That's it and
he's won 4 world championships (with real federations, not the phony
ones) all drug free.

So, you can try a gimmick, or you can use a tried and true method for
strength gains. Stiff leg deadlifts will stretch the shit out of your
hammies. Do light ones on a daily basis and that tightness will go
away.

"Steve Freides" <steve@fridayscomputer.com> schreef:

> Kettlebell swings will also take care of this very nicely, but no one
> around here seems to like it when I say that.

I wonder why that is.

Most of the time you are giving solid, objective advice.

--
Pete

<thirtyplus@gmail.com> schreef:

> Thanks, I like kettlebells, have seen friends use them to good effect,
> and do plan to start using them as soon as I can afford them. The anti-
> kettlebell MFW doctrine is almost legendary.

And all this i was assuming that i was legendary.

Thanks for ruining my Sunday!

--
Pete

"Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok> schreef:

> It's highly unlikely that hamstring flexibility is the issue here (I have
> chronically tight hammies & can squat ass to grass with no problem].
> Glutes, quads & your form in general are more likely to be the limiting
> factors.

I think that even with the tighest hams, you can squat all the way down.
Problem is, if those hams are relatively short, the hip is pulled towards
the knee and the back will round.

Its always beautyfull to watch how some people can scauat way below parallel
and still maintain that lordoic curve. Especially woman.

> Has anyone got the Dan John seminar link that will show how to work on
> squat form?

Yes, but it took me too long to watch.

BTW, all the knowledge that Dan has is stolen from me. And he doesnt want to
give it back.

>> So question 1: What can i do to increase ham flexibility so I can go
>> to paralell and beyond?

> Can you squat below parallel without any weight on your shoulders?

I think he can. But his back will round.

--
Pete

On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:25:43 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<steve@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:


>
>Running is notorious for giving one tight hamstrings.
>

It took me a long time to respect the power of stretching.

--
Is this thing on?