Leg curling vs. squatting

All--

What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus type
machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has never happened.

But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings are
*killed*--doms for days.

I woulda thought that leg curling would kill the hams, while squats etc.
would get mebbe the ass/lower back.
Any idears?
--
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, for *Anyone BUT* a Democrat or a Republican
Ending Corruption in Congress is the Single Best Way
to Materially Improve Your Life
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs

"Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote in
message news:ZC92h.46$FD2.18@newsfe11.lga...
> What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??

Read the thread that starts "On Topic: Problem with Squats."
news:4qe1egFmrjhkU1@individual.net Since I read this (and wrote my response
to that thread), I have been working more with front squats, and I can feel
how involved my hams and glutes are *supposed* to be in my squats.

In general, squats are just plain more complex than leg presses. In a
machine (any machine) you're working in a straight line, targeting a
specific muscle or few muscles, without any need for other muscles to work
with the targeted muscles. The result is what some lifters call "stupid"
muscles -- a big, strong muscle that can do impressive stuff in a machine,
but that is not much help with heavy weight outside a machine if the muscles
that oppose and stabilize the big, "stupid" muscle haven't been developed
commensurately.

Squats: The king of exercise.

(Her Highness) ep

Aw fuck, I was reading "leg presses" when you said "leg curling." Just
ignore me.

ep

"Edna Pearl" <edna_pearl@BiteMeSpammeryahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8Kb2h.4907$Fi1.216@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> "Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote
> in message news:ZC92h.46$FD2.18@newsfe11.lga...
>> What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
>
> Read the thread that starts "On Topic: Problem with Squats."
> news:4qe1egFmrjhkU1@individual.net Since I read this (and wrote my
> response to that thread), I have been working more with front squats, and
> I can feel how involved my hams and glutes are *supposed* to be in my
> squats.
>
> In general, squats are just plain more complex than leg presses. In a
> machine (any machine) you're working in a straight line, targeting a
> specific muscle or few muscles, without any need for other muscles to work
> with the targeted muscles. The result is what some lifters call "stupid"
> muscles -- a big, strong muscle that can do impressive stuff in a machine,
> but that is not much help with heavy weight outside a machine if the
> muscles that oppose and stabilize the big, "stupid" muscle haven't been
> developed commensurately.
>
> Squats: The king of exercise.
>
> (Her Highness) ep
>

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
[...]

> What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
> I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus type
> machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has never happened.
>
> But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings are
> *killed*--doms for days.
[...]

> Any idears?

Just one: That leg curling by X pounds wouldn't create the DOMS
response that squatting by 3X pounds would. Yes?

I mean which would cause DOMS more noticeably - bent rows with several
plates or dumbbell curls with the pink vinyl-covered one-pounders?

--
Curt

Curt wrote:
> Just one: That leg curling by X pounds wouldn't create the DOMS
> response that squatting by 3X pounds would. Yes?

In the hamstrings? Not for me. Squats and leg presses don't
sufficiently tax my hamstrings, which is why I train hams on a
different day to quads. But then, I'm not normal.


Stu

What do you do for hams?
--
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the Single Best Way
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
"Stu" <sswain@iname.com> wrote in message
news:1162439103.695333.253270@h54g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
> Curt wrote:
>> Just one: That leg curling by X pounds wouldn't create the DOMS
>> response that squatting by 3X pounds would. Yes?
>
> In the hamstrings? Not for me. Squats and leg presses don't
> sufficiently tax my hamstrings, which is why I train hams on a
> different day to quads. But then, I'm not normal.
>
>
> Stu
>

On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 17:56:59 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
<entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:

>All--
>
>What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
>I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus type
>machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has never happened.
>
>But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings are
>*killed*--doms for days.
>
>I woulda thought that leg curling would kill the hams, while squats etc.
>would get mebbe the ass/lower back.
>Any idears?

From what I read hamstrings are worked with hip movement. The hips
don't move during a leg curl so they are not an ideal lift. They do
work the hamstrings but probably not as heavy as the squat does.
Other exercises for hamstrings are Stiff Legged Deadlift, Good
Morning, Standard Deadlifts, and Romanian Deadlifts. I don't really
know which of these is best for the hams. They are much harder lifts
to learn the leg curl and I haven't mastered any of them yet.

So what does a leg curl do, then?
--
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the Single Best Way
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:8euik2pci02sij3vvvkvh102j97csfe7rc@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 17:56:59 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
> <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>
>>All--
>>
>>What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
>>I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus type
>>machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has never
>>happened.
>>
>>But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings
>>are
>>*killed*--doms for days.
>>
>>I woulda thought that leg curling would kill the hams, while squats etc.
>>would get mebbe the ass/lower back.
>>Any idears?
>
> From what I read hamstrings are worked with hip movement. The hips
> don't move during a leg curl so they are not an ideal lift. They do
> work the hamstrings but probably not as heavy as the squat does.
> Other exercises for hamstrings are Stiff Legged Deadlift, Good
> Morning, Standard Deadlifts, and Romanian Deadlifts. I don't really
> know which of these is best for the hams. They are much harder lifts
> to learn the leg curl and I haven't mastered any of them yet.

On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 00:45:59 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
<entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:

>So what does a leg curl do, then?

My book says it works hams, glutes, and calves. That doesn't mean it
works them good, but it does work them. Try a set of squats and
then do some leg curls and you should feel a burn in the hams. The
squat will tire them down so you feel it more.

Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 17:56:59 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
><entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>
>>All--
>>
>>What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
>>I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus type
>>machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has never happened.
>>
>>But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings are
>>*killed*--doms for days.
>>
>>I woulda thought that leg curling would kill the hams, while squats etc.
>>would get mebbe the ass/lower back.
>>Any idears?
>
>From what I read hamstrings are worked with hip movement. The hips
>don't move during a leg curl so they are not an ideal lift. They do
>work the hamstrings but probably not as heavy as the squat does.

Both work the hamstrings. Hamstrings are two-joint "bi-articulate"
muscles, with attachments above the hip joint and below the knee.
They both flex the knee and extend the hip. Leg curls and any hip
extension exercise will both work the hams. Squats work a lot more
muscle groups, though.

Curt said the likely reason I got doms in the hams doing squats was because
I was simply doing more weight than I was leg curling.
But here's the thing:
I generally don't squat much cuz, well, I cain't squat fer shit, not being
all that comfortable with it.
And the clean and jerk, with moderate albeit vigorous weights, gets the hams
real good as well.
As does goddamm *weed pulling*.
BUT,
Leg curling on the old Nautilus machines, *with all my might*, multiple
sets, yielded no doms whatsoever.
Seems odd, as "perceived exertion" is a somewhat reliable predictor of
muscle stress.

Is it that "attacking" the muscle from two different ends/attachment points
(if that makes sense), from the knee-end vs. the hip-end, makes that much of
a diff?
I'm thinking in analogy to "upper ab" exercise vs "lower ab" exercises,
which I never quite believed anyway.
--
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message:
Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican.
Ending Corruption in Congress is the Single Best Way
to Materially Improve Your Family's Life.
entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie,
all d'numbuhs
"JMW" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> wrote in message
news:3j2jk2lvqel92hekvlsm44bqa4knf7q40d@4ax.com...
> Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 17:56:59 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
>><entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>>
>>>All--
>>>
>>>What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
>>>I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus type
>>>machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has never
>>>happened.
>>>
>>>But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings
>>>are
>>>*killed*--doms for days.
>>>
>>>I woulda thought that leg curling would kill the hams, while squats etc.
>>>would get mebbe the ass/lower back.
>>>Any idears?
>>
>>From what I read hamstrings are worked with hip movement. The hips
>>don't move during a leg curl so they are not an ideal lift. They do
>>work the hamstrings but probably not as heavy as the squat does.
>
> Both work the hamstrings. Hamstrings are two-joint "bi-articulate"
> muscles, with attachments above the hip joint and below the knee.
> They both flex the knee and extend the hip. Leg curls and any hip
> extension exercise will both work the hams. Squats work a lot more
> muscle groups, though.

Curt wrote:
> Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
> [...]
>
>> What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
>> I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus
>> type machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has
>> never happened.
>>
>> But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my
>> hamstrings are *killed*--doms for days.
> [...]
>
>> Any idears?
>
> Just one: That leg curling by X pounds wouldn't create the DOMS
> response that squatting by 3X pounds would. Yes?

No, because there is only a 25% load transfer (or whatever) to the hams when
squatting.

>
> I mean which would cause DOMS more noticeably - bent rows with several
> plates or dumbbell curls with the pink vinyl-covered one-pounders?



--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't
matter, and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

"Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> schreef:

> What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
> I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus type
> machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has never
> happened.

Its the stretch at the hip joint...

----
Pete

P.S. just because you got more DOMS doesnt mean squats are more effective
for hamstrings then curls...

Dnia 2006-11-02 Shute napisa³(a):
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 17:56:59 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
><entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>
>>All--
>>
>>What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
>>I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus type
>>machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has never happened.
>>
>>But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings are
>>*killed*--doms for days.
>>
>>I woulda thought that leg curling would kill the hams, while squats etc.
>>would get mebbe the ass/lower back.
>>Any idears?
>
> From what I read hamstrings are worked with hip movement. The hips
> don't move during a leg curl so they are not an ideal lift. They do
> work the hamstrings but probably not as heavy as the squat does.
> Other exercises for hamstrings are Stiff Legged Deadlift, Good
> Morning, Standard Deadlifts, and Romanian Deadlifts. I don't really
> know which of these is best for the hams.

Standard Deadlifts are less ham focused. Rest is more or less similar,
with maybe Romanians having slight advantage. Take care with good
mornings. They are tricky, because if you go too deep or lose good
form, the bar is on your back, so there is no easy way to terminate a
lift immediately.

> They are much harder lifts
> to learn the leg curl and I haven't mastered any of them yet.

Pick any of those and do it every time you are in the gym. Do it light,
concentrate on form. In no time you'll be an expert.

BTW - IMHO best lift for hams is Glute-Ham Raise.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Dnia 2006-11-01 Proctologically Violated©® napisa³(a):
> All--
>
> What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
> I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus type
> machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has never happened.
>
> But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings are
> *killed*--doms for days.

Leg curls start when hamstrings are a bit shortened and the peak
contraction happens in a very shortened position. If you could do
curls in bent-over position they would be very good exercise, just like
glute-ham raise is.

As they are, they can be called biceps femoris concentration curls, and
their effectiveness is probably similar to normal concentration curls,
which means that it is mediocre at best (IMHO, of course).

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

In article <ZC92h.46$FD2.18@newsfe11.lga>,
"Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net>
wrote:

> All--
>
> What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
> I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus type
> machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has never happened.
>
> But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings are
> *killed*--doms for days.
>
> I woulda thought that leg curling would kill the hams, while squats etc.
> would get mebbe the ass/lower back.

The hamstrings travel over two sets of joints - the knees and the hips.
They are somewhat unusual in that respect. They are prime movers in hip
extension, which is often not realized. So during the dynamic hip
extension of cleans and jerks they are really used quite heavily. Leg
curls, OTOH, only work them during the knee flexion movement. Unless you
are a bodybuilder you could probably throw out the leg curls machine and
just do cleans.

--
Keith

In article <1162439103.695333.253270@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups .com>,
"Stu" <sswain@iname.com> wrote:

> Curt wrote:
> > Just one: That leg curling by X pounds wouldn't create the DOMS
> > response that squatting by 3X pounds would. Yes?
>
> In the hamstrings? Not for me. Squats and leg presses don't
> sufficiently tax my hamstrings, which is why I train hams on a
> different day to quads. But then, I'm not normal.
>
You proabably aren't squatting ass-to-the-grass either, are you?

If you were your hamstrings would be taxed. I mean going heavy and down
to where your hamstrings touch your calves.

Most people I know who say squats don't work hamstrings are doing
partial squats.

--
Keith

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters@yahoo.com> schreef:

>> But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings
>> are
>> *killed*--doms for days.

> Leg curls start when hamstrings are a bit shortened and the peak
> contraction happens in a very shortened position. If you could do
> curls in bent-over position they would be very good exercise, just like
> glute-ham raise is.

You mean putting the hams in a pre-stretched position?

What difference would a a stretch of the hams, at the hip, make at the
flexion of the knee?
I mean, the hams contract to move the lower leg towards the hip, no matter
if the muscle is shortened or stretched at the other side.

Do you think that stretching a muscle at one joint will make that same
muscle contract harder at the other joint?

Or did you mean that you bend forwards with the torso when the legs are
straight, and that, as you bend the legs, the torso is raised?
So you get knee joint flexion and hip joint extension simultanuous? As
opposed to squat/deadlifts/SLDL where there is only hip joint extension (wrt
hams) or leg curls where there is only knee joint flexion?

So the muscle contract at the same time at both joints?

----
Pete

In article <sCf2h.88$FD2.28@newsfe11.lga>,
"Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net>
wrote:

> So what does a leg curl do, then?

Nautilus machine isolates knee flexion - very little hip extension. In
terms of the muscle 3 of the 4 segments could be thought of being worked
in a partial movement.

Another consideration is that eccentric contractions appear to cause
more soreness than concentric contractions. Which would explain why
weeding (okay - it is a static contraction, but same idea) makes the
hamstrings sore.

For me - sprinting really makes 'em sore.

--
Keith

In article <bjg2h.143$Rj2.36@newsfe10.lga>,
"Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net>
wrote:

> Curt said the likely reason I got doms in the hams doing squats was because
> I was simply doing more weight than I was leg curling.
> But here's the thing:
> I generally don't squat much cuz, well, I cain't squat fer shit, not being
> all that comfortable with it.
> And the clean and jerk, with moderate albeit vigorous weights, gets the hams
> real good as well.
> As does goddamm *weed pulling*.
> BUT,
> Leg curling on the old Nautilus machines, *with all my might*, multiple
> sets, yielded no doms whatsoever.
> Seems odd, as "perceived exertion" is a somewhat reliable predictor of
> muscle stress.
>
> Is it that "attacking" the muscle from two different ends/attachment points
> (if that makes sense), from the knee-end vs. the hip-end, makes that much of
> a diff?
> I'm thinking in analogy to "upper ab" exercise vs "lower ab" exercises,
> which I never quite believed anyway.

Good point there - I was thinking the same thing in terms of upper chest
/ Lower chest.

I dunno about that end of it. To me it seems like the weight being used
in a leg curl just isn't going to do it. Even though the perception is
that you are exerting hard, the peak force being generated is very small
compared to a clean.

It's like deadlifting as opposed to cleaning. Elite athletes can
generate 3-4 times the force in a clean as they do in a deadlift.
Lifting a 400 lb clean generates way more force than a 600 lb deadlift.

The force is briefer in duration, but much greater. In terms of the
hamstring muscle the rate coding would be much higher in the clean.

Now go figure out the weeding. My analysis falls to ground in explaining
that one!

:^)

Although I think it would be due to the extended static contraction.
Completely different process.

BTW - for the ultimate hanmstrong exercise:

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...eHamRaise.html

--
Keith

In article <eicthc$9b1$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dnia 2006-11-02 Shute napisa³(a):
> > On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 17:56:59 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
> ><entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
> >
> >>All--
> >>
> >>What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
> >>I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus type
> >>machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has never happened.
> >>
> >>But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings
> >>are
> >>*killed*--doms for days.
> >>
> >>I woulda thought that leg curling would kill the hams, while squats etc.
> >>would get mebbe the ass/lower back.
> >>Any idears?
> >
> > From what I read hamstrings are worked with hip movement. The hips
> > don't move during a leg curl so they are not an ideal lift. They do
> > work the hamstrings but probably not as heavy as the squat does.
> > Other exercises for hamstrings are Stiff Legged Deadlift, Good
> > Morning, Standard Deadlifts, and Romanian Deadlifts. I don't really
> > know which of these is best for the hams.
>
> Standard Deadlifts are less ham focused. Rest is more or less similar,
> with maybe Romanians having slight advantage. Take care with good
> mornings. They are tricky, because if you go too deep or lose good
> form, the bar is on your back, so there is no easy way to terminate a
> lift immediately.
>
> > They are much harder lifts
> > to learn the leg curl and I haven't mastered any of them yet.
>
> Pick any of those and do it every time you are in the gym. Do it light,
> concentrate on form. In no time you'll be an expert.
>
> BTW - IMHO best lift for hams is Glute-Ham Raise.


I posted the link before I read this. It isn't a great example of
someone doing them (I saw a picture of Alexeiev doing them with a 275 lb
barbell - sheesh!), but I agree about it being the best.

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...eHamRaise.html

--
Keith

Dnia 2006-11-02 Pete napisa³(a):
> "Andrzej Rosa" <bakters@yahoo.com> schreef:
>
>>> But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings
>>> are
>>> *killed*--doms for days.
>
>> Leg curls start when hamstrings are a bit shortened and the peak
>> contraction happens in a very shortened position. If you could do
>> curls in bent-over position they would be very good exercise, just like
>> glute-ham raise is.
>
> You mean putting the hams in a pre-stretched position?
>
> What difference would a a stretch of the hams, at the hip, make at the
> flexion of the knee?

Muscles can't develop much force if they are shortened. To produce
force they must shorten further, but they cant, because they are
already shortened. They can cramp, though. ;-)

That's what happens in leg curls and concentration curls. Top force is
needed where muscles can't deliver it, at the top of movement in
already vastly shortened position. Compare it with SLDL, when top
force is needed in pre-stretched position, where muscles *can* deliver
a lot of force. So they deliver, so they get stimulated, so they grow.

> I mean, the hams contract to move the lower leg towards the hip, no matter
> if the muscle is shortened or stretched at the other side.
>
> Do you think that stretching a muscle at one joint will make that same
> muscle contract harder at the other joint?

No. Muscle works like an elastic band. Elastic band cant pull at one
attachment and not pull at the other. It pulls equally hard at both
ends.

> Or did you mean that you bend forwards with the torso when the legs are
> straight, and that, as you bend the legs, the torso is raised?
> So you get knee joint flexion and hip joint extension simultanuous? As
> opposed to squat/deadlifts/SLDL where there is only hip joint extension (wrt
> hams) or leg curls where there is only knee joint flexion?
>
> So the muscle contract at the same time at both joints?

I meant, that if leg curl machines were constructed differently, they
would work all right. To make them work fine one would need to be able
to do curls in bent-over position and additionally make a levers of a
machine work in such a way, that a load at the top of movement would be
significantly lower than at the beginning.

Wait, there exist such a machine! It's called Glute-Ham Raise!

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

"Hobbes" <khobman800@yahoo.com> schreef:

> The hamstrings travel over two sets of joints - the knees and the hips.
> They are somewhat unusual in that respect. They are prime movers in hip
> extension, which is often not realized. So during the dynamic hip
> extension of cleans and jerks they are really used quite heavily. Leg
> curls, OTOH, only work them during the knee flexion movement. Unless you
> are a bodybuilder you could probably throw out the leg curls machine and
> just do cleans.

Keith, i am willing to bet that if you work the hams heavy with curls, there
will be a lot of carry over to squat and DL kinda movements.

Strong hams = strong hams. I cant imagene that if someone uses a full stack
at curls, he would suck doing SLDLs.
Sure, different exercise, different actions at joints, but you the same
muscle. Cant imagine that any given muscle all of a sudden gets weak just
because the movement is different.

Keep in mind that i use a certain logic;

If you work the lower arms and biceps hard, you probably perform a bit
better when doing rows.
Heavy rows might help you using more in the dead.

Which can result in a better sqaut.

For me thats logic, anyway...

----
Pete

On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 13:58:04 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
<bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Dnia 2006-11-02 Shute napisa?(a):
>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 17:56:59 -0500, "Proctologically ViolatedŠŽ"
>><entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> wrote:
>>
>>>All--
>>>
>>>What's the difference, specifically regarding the hamstrings??
>>>I thought that by leg curling really heavy (face down, on Nautilus type
>>>machine), I'd be killed by DOMS the next day. Yet this has never happened.
>>>
>>>But in squatting, even cleans/jerks, even *weed-pulling*, my hamstrings are
>>>*killed*--doms for days.
>>>
>>>I woulda thought that leg curling would kill the hams, while squats etc.
>>>would get mebbe the ass/lower back.
>>>Any idears?
>>
>> From what I read hamstrings are worked with hip movement. The hips
>> don't move during a leg curl so they are not an ideal lift. They do
>> work the hamstrings but probably not as heavy as the squat does.
>> Other exercises for hamstrings are Stiff Legged Deadlift, Good
>> Morning, Standard Deadlifts, and Romanian Deadlifts. I don't really
>> know which of these is best for the hams.
>
>Standard Deadlifts are less ham focused. Rest is more or less similar,
>with maybe Romanians having slight advantage. Take care with good
>mornings. They are tricky, because if you go too deep or lose good
>form, the bar is on your back, so there is no easy way to terminate a
>lift immediately.
>
>> They are much harder lifts
>> to learn the leg curl and I haven't mastered any of them yet.
>
>Pick any of those and do it every time you are in the gym. Do it light,
>concentrate on form. In no time you'll be an expert.
>
>BTW - IMHO best lift for hams is Glute-Ham Raise.

I hadn't heard of Glute-Ham before. Those look interesting. I wish
they had pictures on the equipment at my gym because it all looks a
like. I might have to ask the guy if they have the machine to do
them.

Out of the exercises I listed the Good Morning seemed the most
beneficial. I have tried them but I get odd looks from people who
think I am doing a fucked up squat. The key seems to be in moving
the hips. I have been going light until I can get the hang of them.

"Andrzej Rosa" <bakters@yahoo.com> schreef:

>>> Leg curls start when hamstrings are a bit shortened and the peak
>>> contraction happens in a very shortened position. If you could do
>>> curls in bent-over position they would be very good exercise, just like
>>> glute-ham raise is.

>> What difference would a a stretch of the hams, at the hip, make at the
>> flexion of the knee?

> Muscles can't develop much force if they are shortened. To produce
> force they must shorten further, but they cant, because they are
> already shortened. They can cramp, though. ;-)

When you do leg curls, the muscles shorten, no matter what the position of
the torso is.

If your theory about this turns out to be correct, everybody should do all
tricep work overhead and biceps with the humerus behind the torso, as in
incline Dbcurls.

> That's what happens in leg curls and concentration curls. Top force is
> needed where muscles can't deliver it, at the top of movement in
> already vastly shortened position.

I am mot sure what you mean. Okay, the hams crosses 2 joints, so what?
You can apply force at one side, like in SLDLs or leg curls. If you do leg
curls the hams have to shorten to move the weight, no matter *what* happens
at the other joint.

> Compare it with SLDL, when top
> force is needed in pre-stretched position, where muscles *can* deliver
> a lot of force. So they deliver, so they get stimulated, so they grow.

I miss the point here.

When you a SLDL, the hams shorten. And the hip is pulled backwards. There is
ZERO action at the knee.

When you a leg curl, the hams shorten. And the lower leg is pulled towards
the hip. There is ZERO action at the hip.

So what?

Sure, when you squat or deadlift, there is action at both hip and knee, but
please note that the hams have ZERO action at the knee in those exercises,
and that, while they shorten at the hip...

*they actually LENGTHEN at the knee!*

Ever wondered about that? i did.

What happens if a muscle shortens at one end and lengthen the same amount at
the other?

Besides, there are two major muscles that can cause hip joint extension.

How many muscles do we have for knee joint flexion? The gastrocs dont count
;-O

>> I mean, the hams contract to move the lower leg towards the hip, no
>> matter
>> if the muscle is shortened or stretched at the other side.

>> Do you think that stretching a muscle at one joint will make that same
>> muscle contract harder at the other joint?

> No. Muscle works like an elastic band. Elastic band cant pull at one
> attachment and not pull at the other. It pulls equally hard at both
> ends.

Which was/is my arguement all along!
It doesnt matter at which side you pull!

>> So the muscle contract at the same time at both joints?

> I meant, that if leg curl machines were constructed differently, they
> would work all right.

You mean with a certain angle between the torso and legs? I have seen those,
with a 60 degree angle (120 to be precise)

> To make them work fine one would need to be able
> to do curls in bent-over position...

Why?

The hams contract *no matter what position the torso is in.*

Your theory would make all my effert for triceps at the pulley worthless! I
can assure its not ;-O
the tris, in this particular exercise,. are *shortened* at the shoulder
joint, in the same way hams are sjortened at "normal" leg curls.

Same for preacher/Scott curls. Shortened at the *other* joint, not
stretched!

> and additionally make a levers of a
> machine work in such a way, that a load at the top of movement would be
> significantly lower than at the beginning.

I dont get this.

> Wait, there exist such a machine! It's called Glute-Ham Raise!

We dont use those over here. I am not kidding.
Is there a site where i can watch that movement?

----
Pete

In article <454a0857$0$210$dbd41001@news.wanadoo.nl>,
"Pete" <phoutstra@wanadoo.nl> wrote:

> "Hobbes" <khobman800@yahoo.com> schreef:
>
> > The hamstrings travel over two sets of joints - the knees and the hips.
> > They are somewhat unusual in that respect. They are prime movers in hip
> > extension, which is often not realized. So during the dynamic hip
> > extension of cleans and jerks they are really used quite heavily. Leg
> > curls, OTOH, only work them during the knee flexion movement. Unless you
> > are a bodybuilder you could probably throw out the leg curls machine and
> > just do cleans.
>
> Keith, i am willing to bet that if you work the hams heavy with curls, there
> will be a lot of carry over to squat and DL kinda movements.
>
> Strong hams = strong hams. I cant imagene that if someone uses a full stack
> at curls, he would suck doing SLDLs.
> Sure, different exercise, different actions at joints, but you the same
> muscle. Cant imagine that any given muscle all of a sudden gets weak just
> because the movement is different.
>
> Keep in mind that i use a certain logic;
>
> If you work the lower arms and biceps hard, you probably perform a bit
> better when doing rows.
> Heavy rows might help you using more in the dead.
>
> Which can result in a better sqaut.
>
> For me thats logic, anyway...
>
Specificity roolz! Never forget it.

Heavy rows would probably create a motor pattern where you pull with a
flexed bicep - so you'd end up tearing off a bicep in the deadlift.

Been there - done that.

For strength motor patterns are crucial. Strength is a skill as well as
a function of muscle size. Isolation movements don't teach that skill
and in fact may inhibit skill learning.

--
Keith

"Stu" <sswain@iname.com> schreef:

>> Just one: That leg curling by X pounds wouldn't create the DOMS
>> response that squatting by 3X pounds would. Yes?

> In the hamstrings? Not for me. Squats and leg presses don't
> sufficiently tax my hamstrings, which is why I train hams on a
> different day to quads. But then, I'm not normal.

Does it make you feel better if i assured you that nobody around here is
normal?

----
Pete

"Hobbes" <khobman800@yahoo.com> schreef:

> If you were your hamstrings would be taxed. I mean going heavy and down
> to where your hamstrings touch your calves.

> Most people I know who say squats don't work hamstrings are doing
> partial squats.

What if the action at the knee is limited but the torso inlcines 45 degree
forward?
I am willing to bet your hams are sore the next day...

----
Pete

"Bully" <bully1@proteinbars.co.ok> schreef:

>> Just one: That leg curling by X pounds wouldn't create the DOMS
>> response that squatting by 3X pounds would. Yes?

> No, because there is only a 25% load transfer (or whatever) to the hams
> when squatting.

Which is why more people should do leg curls.

You recruit 100% of the hams. And thats a fact!

----
Pete

Dnia 2006-11-02 Hobbes napisa³(a):
> In article <eicthc$9b1$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Pick any of those and do it every time you are in the gym. Do it light,
>> concentrate on form. In no time you'll be an expert.
>>
>> BTW - IMHO best lift for hams is Glute-Ham Raise.
>
>
> I posted the link before I read this. It isn't a great example of
> someone doing them (I saw a picture of Alexeiev doing them with a 275 lb
> barbell - sheesh!), but I agree about it being the best.
>
> http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...eHamRaise.html

I agree, that this is not the best illustration of the lift. I
remember seeing some good videos but I couldn't find them right now.

Anyway, even if one could have a better bench or adjust this one
better, still GHR will work better then leg curls.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> schreef:

>>I woulda thought that leg curling would kill the hams, while squats etc.
>>would get mebbe the ass/lower back.
>>Any idears?

> From what I read hamstrings are worked with hip movement. The hips
> don't move during a leg curl so they are not an ideal lift.

Bullshit.

Which muscle is responsible for pulling the lower legs towards the hips?

HINT;

Its NOT the deltoids...

> They do work the hamstrings but probably not as heavy as the squat does.

No.

> Other exercises for hamstrings are Stiff Legged Deadlift, Good
> Morning, Standard Deadlifts, and Romanian Deadlifts.

Yes.
At the hip side of that muscle. Same musclke, different joint. Thank you.

> I don't really know which of these is best for the hams.

How many pairs of muscles do we have to pull the lower legs towards the
hips?

HINT;

Its less the 2.

How many muscles do we have for hip joint extension?

HINT;

Its less than 3 but more than 1.

> They are much harder lifts
> to learn the leg curl and I haven't mastered any of them yet.

Yes, they are more difficult.

Let me share a secret with you;

<whisper>

com plexi ty of a cer tain move ment doesnt mean that muscl es in volved in
that move ment are gro wing bett ter just be cause there is more com plexi
ty

Dont tell anyone.

----
Pete

"Proctologically Violated©®" <entropic3.14decay@optonline2.718.net> schreef:

> So what does a leg curl do, then?

The hams shorten to pull the lower leg towards the hips.
And when a muscle shortens it excerts force.

Thats the bottom line.

----
Pete

On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 14:47:06 +0000 (UTC), Andrzej Rosa
<bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I meant, that if leg curl machines were constructed differently, they
>would work all right. To make them work fine one would need to be able
>to do curls in bent-over position and additionally make a levers of a
>machine work in such a way, that a load at the top of movement would be
>significantly lower than at the beginning.
>
>Wait, there exist such a machine! It's called Glute-Ham Raise!

The leg curl machines at my gym start out in a fairly bent over
position. I also tend to move my hips a bit as I bring the weight
up. I don't know if maybe that works them a little better than the
original poster.

I think my gym has something like this too:
http://us.commercial.lifefitness.com...elinglegcurl_1

The one I am thinking of is plate loaded though.

"JMW" <jmwilliams@enforcergraphics.f2s.com> schreef:


>>From what I read hamstrings are worked with hip movement. The hips
>>don't move during a leg curl so they are not an ideal lift. They do
>>work the hamstrings but probably not as heavy as the squat does.

> Both wor