Leg Workout

What routine do you think is critical for good leg development.
Obviously the Squat or Leg Press are crucial even though many gym
goers don't even bother with those. Do you find it necessary to
supplement with other exercises and if so which ones? How many times
a week for the various exercises?

I was also wondering how important the Lunge is to their development.
I cannot do them because of my stiff ankle from an old injury. I
tried Bulgarian Squats but I couldn't balance well. I was doing leg
extensions for a bit but I don't think the movement is really the
same. Now I think I am going to give hack squats a try. Not sure if
using a barbell or machine is better. I noticed a weakness in this
area when I tried doing wall squats with no weight.

My legs are still weak but the weight is coming up. I think I am
going to add more leg focus into my next routine to help bring my
squat weight up faster. I am just looking for something which is
going to cover all the bases. My body still has a few weakness
effecting the my form and these stand out more as I raise the weight.

Any suggestions?

Shute wrote:

>
> What routine do you think is critical for good leg development.
> Obviously the Squat or Leg Press are crucial even though many gym
> goers don't even bother with those. Do you find it necessary to
> supplement with other exercises and if so which ones? How many times
> a week for the various exercises?

You seem to think in terms of some "magic" routine which will fill
your legs. There is none. Simple stuff done often enough, intense
enough, and for long enough is what's working. Neither squats nor
leg presses are an absolute necessity. If there was a competition in
leg curls you bet that champs would have some huge hams.

> I was also wondering how important the Lunge is to their development.

Not much.

> I cannot do them because of my stiff ankle from an old injury. I
> tried Bulgarian Squats but I couldn't balance well.

Persist, and you'll learn the necessary skill.

> I was doing leg
> extensions for a bit but I don't think the movement is really the
> same. Now I think I am going to give hack squats a try. Not sure if
> using a barbell or machine is better. I noticed a weakness in this
> area when I tried doing wall squats with no weight.
>
> My legs are still weak but the weight is coming up. I think I am
> going to add more leg focus into my next routine to help bring my
> squat weight up faster. I am just looking for something which is
> going to cover all the bases. My body still has a few weakness
> effecting the my form and these stand out more as I raise the weight.
>
> Any suggestions?

Do not search for a magic bullet. All exercises are bullets, but none
of them are magic. How about simply persisting in doing what you can
do?

One suggestion. If you can't keep your form with high weights,
increase the number of sets and/or the frequency of your workouts.
Think in terms of weekly load. More load means more stress. It
should result in faster adaptation, until you are past your ability
to adapt to it.

--
Andrzej Rosa

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:47:04 +0100, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>You seem to think in terms of some "magic" routine which will fill
>your legs. There is none. Simple stuff done often enough, intense
>enough, and for long enough is what's working. Neither squats nor
>leg presses are an absolute necessity. If there was a competition in
>leg curls you bet that champs would have some huge hams.

Not magic. I just think there are certain target areas or exercise
crucial to development and strength. For instance I don't think a
routine of leg curls and extensions provide optimum leg development.
They can work as a supplement but I don't think they work well on
their own.

>> I cannot do them because of my stiff ankle from an old injury. I
>> tried Bulgarian Squats but I couldn't balance well.
>
>Persist, and you'll learn the necessary skill.

It was taking far too long to learn. I need to stick to the stuff
which works right now.

>> Any suggestions?
>
>Do not search for a magic bullet. All exercises are bullets, but none
>of them are magic. How about simply persisting in doing what you can
>do?

I plan too. I just thought others with stronger legs might have a
better approach.

>One suggestion. If you can't keep your form with high weights,
>increase the number of sets and/or the frequency of your workouts.
>Think in terms of weekly load. More load means more stress. It
>should result in faster adaptation, until you are past your ability
>to adapt to it.

I have already done that and moved my squat weight up about 35 pounds
in the past two months. I want to bring it up at least another 30 for
a satisfactory number. Except all my other lifts have been going up
at the same pace so I still bench with more than I squat. So my new
plan is to increase the number of days and/or exercises for my legs.
With some luck that will accelerate them past my upper body strength.

My form isn't too bad. I just notice that I still move too far
forward sometimes on the way up. It isn't to the point where it hurts
my back or anything. But I can sometimes feel myself pulling forward
onto my toes. I thought hack or front squats might help me learn to
keep my back straight.

Shute wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 19:47:04 +0100, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>You seem to think in terms of some "magic" routine which will fill
>>your legs. There is none. Simple stuff done often enough, intense
>>enough, and for long enough is what's working. Neither squats nor
>>leg presses are an absolute necessity. If there was a competition in
>>leg curls you bet that champs would have some huge hams.
>
> Not magic. I just think there are certain target areas or exercise
> crucial to development and strength. For instance I don't think a
> routine of leg curls and extensions provide optimum leg development.
> They can work as a supplement but I don't think they work well on
> their own.

So imagine that there exist a sport where you need good total in leg
curls and extensions to win. Would guys who are good at it have big
legs? Would they concentrate their efforts on doing extensions and
curls, or on doing squats? I bet that they would mainly do the
"competition lifts" and still have some seriously big legs.

>>Persist, and you'll learn the necessary skill.
>
> It was taking far too long to learn. I need to stick to the stuff
> which works right now.

Good idea.

>>One suggestion. If you can't keep your form with high weights,
>>increase the number of sets and/or the frequency of your workouts.
>>Think in terms of weekly load. More load means more stress. It
>>should result in faster adaptation, until you are past your ability
>>to adapt to it.
>
> I have already done that and moved my squat weight up about 35 pounds
> in the past two months. I want to bring it up at least another 30 for
> a satisfactory number. Except all my other lifts have been going up
> at the same pace so I still bench with more than I squat. So my new
> plan is to increase the number of days and/or exercises for my legs.
> With some luck that will accelerate them past my upper body strength.

Seems like a plan.

> My form isn't too bad. I just notice that I still move too far
> forward sometimes on the way up. It isn't to the point where it hurts
> my back or anything. But I can sometimes feel myself pulling forward
> onto my toes. I thought hack or front squats might help me learn to
> keep my back straight.

They might help. But now it looks like you aren't much concerned with
your muscular development, and more with your numbers. It's not the
same. Finding a weakness and fixing it with specific exercise can help
your number, but it most probably will not influence the rate of muscular
growth in your legs by much.

Anyway, I'd simply squat more often. Vary the weights, reps and intensity
during your workouts, but do not forget about your main lift in favor of
an assistance lift. Assistance is just that, an exercise which is supposed
to assist you in reaching your goal.

--
Andrzej Rosa

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 21:00:01 +0100, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>They might help. But now it looks like you aren't much concerned with
>your muscular development, and more with your numbers. It's not the
>same. Finding a weakness and fixing it with specific exercise can help
>your number, but it most probably will not influence the rate of muscular
>growth in your legs by much.

I don't have good data on proportions but they where growing even when
using very little weight. I don't think their size is too out of
proportion to my upper body. Their strength however is another story.
Maybe if I took everyone in the gym and made them do real squats I
would change my mind. Very few people squat and most of those don't
go very deep.

>Anyway, I'd simply squat more often. Vary the weights, reps and intensity
>during your workouts, but do not forget about your main lift in favor of
>an assistance lift. Assistance is just that, an exercise which is supposed
>to assist you in reaching your goal.

I was thinking doing the alternate exercises on a separate training
day would give my legs a little bit of a break. It takes about four
days for them to recover from the squat routine. And I need to
squeeze deadlifts in there somewhere too. The routine I was thinking
of doing is a pyramid which varies the weight quite a bit. I haven't
done one before so I am expecting good results.

BTW someone helped me on my deadlift form the other day. I didn't
realize I wasn't dropping my butt back down in between lifts. I think
I am finally reaching weights where people notice. It starts to stand
once I can slap on that extra plate.

Shute wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 21:00:01 +0100, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Anyway, I'd simply squat more often. Vary the weights, reps and intensity
>>during your workouts, but do not forget about your main lift in favor of
>>an assistance lift. Assistance is just that, an exercise which is supposed
>>to assist you in reaching your goal.
>
> I was thinking doing the alternate exercises on a separate training
> day would give my legs a little bit of a break. It takes about four
> days for them to recover from the squat routine.

There is no must in going heavy on every workout. You might squat more
often, but with different weight and rep range, and with different focus.
If you want to squat more, you must squat more.

> And I need to squeeze deadlifts in there somewhere too.

Between squats and deadlifts, both done say twice a week, you should
have absolutely no gas for upper body workouts. Soon enough you'll
reach those magic "proportional" numbers. ;-)

> The routine I was thinking
> of doing is a pyramid which varies the weight quite a bit. I haven't
> done one before so I am expecting good results.
>
> BTW someone helped me on my deadlift form the other day. I didn't
> realize I wasn't dropping my butt back down in between lifts. I think
> I am finally reaching weights where people notice. It starts to stand
> once I can slap on that extra plate.

Nice that you get where you want to be. Congratulations.

--
Andrzej Rosa

Shute wrote:
> What routine do you think is critical for good leg development.
> Obviously the Squat or Leg Press are crucial even though many gym
> goers don't even bother with those. Do you find it necessary to
> supplement with other exercises and if so which ones? How many times
> a week for the various exercises?

Squats are crucial. Besides the back squats, do front squats to target
the quads more. Forget leg presses, do Romanian Deadlifts instead.


> I was also wondering how important the Lunge is to their development.

Lunges are great, unilateral work rocks but if you cant do them thats fine.


> same. Now I think I am going to give hack squats a try. Not sure if
> using a barbell or machine is better.

Barbell squats yes, Smith Machine NO! Smith machines are bad bad bad.

Andrzej Rosa wrote:
> Shute wrote:
>
>> What routine do you think is critical for good leg development.
>> Obviously the Squat or Leg Press are crucial even though many gym
>> goers don't even bother with those. Do you find it necessary to
>> supplement with other exercises and if so which ones? How many times
>> a week for the various exercises?
>
> You seem to think in terms of some "magic" routine which will fill
> your legs. There is none.

Back squats come close to being a magic bullet routine.

On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 00:55:32 +0100, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Between squats and deadlifts, both done say twice a week, you should
>have absolutely no gas for upper body workouts. Soon enough you'll
>reach those magic "proportional" numbers. ;-)

I have been dead with a one day a weak squat and deadlift. That is
the main reason I am switching to a routine with higher reps for a
spell.

On Sun, 04 Mar 2007 20:06:20 -0500, 223rem <223rem@sgbcglobal.com>
wrote:

>Shute wrote:
>> What routine do you think is critical for good leg development.
>> Obviously the Squat or Leg Press are crucial even though many gym
>> goers don't even bother with those. Do you find it necessary to
>> supplement with other exercises and if so which ones? How many times
>> a week for the various exercises?
>
>Squats are crucial. Besides the back squats, do front squats to target
>the quads more. Forget leg presses, do Romanian Deadlifts instead.

So do you consider front squats better than the hack squat?

>
>> I was also wondering how important the Lunge is to their development.
>
>Lunges are great, unilateral work rocks but if you cant do them thats fine.
>
>
>> same. Now I think I am going to give hack squats a try. Not sure if
>> using a barbell or machine is better.
>
>Barbell squats yes, Smith Machine NO! Smith machines are bad bad bad.

Even on a Hack? I have seen a few people using the Smith for that.
Our gym has an incline one and it doesn't seem like most people use it
in the right direction.

In news7hru29cgieatp3teo1r82sg8aopvf6b34@4ax.com,
Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> typed:
> On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 00:55:32 +0100, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Between squats and deadlifts, both done say twice a week, you should
>> have absolutely no gas for upper body workouts. Soon enough you'll
>> reach those magic "proportional" numbers. ;-)
>
> I have been dead with a one day a weak squat and deadlift. That is
> the main reason I am switching to a routine with higher reps for a
> spell.

Switch to higer reps and you'll never match my numbers Shute!!!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:15:45 -0000, "Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok>
wrote:

>In news7hru29cgieatp3teo1r82sg8aopvf6b34@4ax.com,
>Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> typed:
>> On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 00:55:32 +0100, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Between squats and deadlifts, both done say twice a week, you should
>>> have absolutely no gas for upper body workouts. Soon enough you'll
>>> reach those magic "proportional" numbers. ;-)
>>
>> I have been dead with a one day a weak squat and deadlift. That is
>> the main reason I am switching to a routine with higher reps for a
>> spell.
>
>Switch to higer reps and you'll never match my numbers Shute!!!

Well I was planning to use a pyramid with some high and some low reps.
I am hoping that will give me a bit of a break but keep me advancing
although maybe a bit slower. I also want to focus on my legs which my
weakest link. Then in a few months I am going to hit myself with much
more brutal strength routine. I want to be comfortable with my
current weights before I start it.

I was using these weights for sets of 4 last workout:
bench 200
squat 185
deadlift 225

In news:0opsu2djmqif2d9a2n43isrejp67e6vue9@4ax.com,
Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> typed:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:15:45 -0000, "Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok>
> wrote:
>
>> In news7hru29cgieatp3teo1r82sg8aopvf6b34@4ax.com,
>> Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> typed:
>>> On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 00:55:32 +0100, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Between squats and deadlifts, both done say twice a week, you
>>>> should have absolutely no gas for upper body workouts. Soon
>>>> enough you'll reach those magic "proportional" numbers. ;-)
>>>
>>> I have been dead with a one day a weak squat and deadlift. That is
>>> the main reason I am switching to a routine with higher reps for a
>>> spell.
>>
>> Switch to higer reps and you'll never match my numbers Shute!!!
>
> Well I was planning to use a pyramid with some high and some low reps.
> I am hoping that will give me a bit of a break but keep me advancing
> although maybe a bit slower. I also want to focus on my legs which my
> weakest link. Then in a few months I am going to hit myself with much
> more brutal strength routine. I want to be comfortable with my
> current weights before I start it.
>
> I was using these weights for sets of 4 last workout:
> bench 200
> squat 185
> deadlift 225

Yours are in pounds, obviously. The following are in kgs:

Bench: 8 x 120kg
Squat: 3 x 160kg
Deadlift: 2 x 200kg, 1 x 210kg

Keep up, will you!!!

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 06:15:45 -0000, "Bully" <bully62@proteinbars.co.ok>
wrote:

>In news7hru29cgieatp3teo1r82sg8aopvf6b34@4ax.com,
>Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> typed:
>> On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 00:55:32 +0100, Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Between squats and deadlifts, both done say twice a week, you should
>>> have absolutely no gas for upper body workouts. Soon enough you'll
>>> reach those magic "proportional" numbers. ;-)
>>
>> I have been dead with a one day a weak squat and deadlift. That is
>> the main reason I am switching to a routine with higher reps for a
>> spell.
>
>Switch to higer reps and you'll never match my numbers Shute!!!

Thus spake "Super Bully"!!

"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> schreef:

>>Between squats and deadlifts, both done say twice a week, you should
>>have absolutely no gas for upper body workouts. Soon enough you'll
>>reach those magic "proportional" numbers. ;-)

> I have been dead with a one day a weak squat and deadlift.

Drop the deads. Add a hack to your leg workout and perhaps an extra rowing
motion to your back routine.

Why do you the deads in the first place?

--
Pete

Pete wrote:

>
> Drop the deads. Add a hack to your leg workout and perhaps an extra rowing
> motion to your back routine.
>
> Why do you the deads in the first place?

Are you serious? Are you questioning the importance of deadlifts?!

"223rem" <223rem@gmail.com> schreef:

>> Drop the deads. Add a hack to your leg workout and perhaps an extra
>> rowing motion to your back routine.

>> Why do you the deads in the first place?

> Are you serious?

Always.

>Are you questioning the importance of deadlifts?!

Not really. I stopped questioning them a long time ago.

Most people squat and row anyway.

--
Pete

"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> schreef:

>>Squats are crucial. Besides the back squats, do front squats to target
>>the quads more. Forget leg presses, do Romanian Deadlifts instead.

> So do you consider front squats better than the hack squat?

Hack squats kinda mimick a front squat, without worrying about balance.
Excellent quad builder.

>>> I was also wondering how important the Lunge is to their development.

>>Lunges are great, unilateral work rocks but if you cant do them thats
>>fine.


>>> same. Now I think I am going to give hack squats a try. Not sure if
>>> using a barbell or machine is better.

>>Barbell squats yes, Smith Machine NO! Smith machines are bad bad bad.

> Even on a Hack? I have seen a few people using the Smith for that.
> Our gym has an incline one and it doesn't seem like most people use it
> in the right direction.

Shute, there is nothing wrong with the Smith. Just make sure your heels are
"in-line" with the gliders.

--
Pete

On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:44:05 +0100, "Pete" <phoutstra@wanadoo.nl>
wrote:

>"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> schreef:
>
>>>Between squats and deadlifts, both done say twice a week, you should
>>>have absolutely no gas for upper body workouts. Soon enough you'll
>>>reach those magic "proportional" numbers. ;-)
>
>> I have been dead with a one day a weak squat and deadlift.
>
>Drop the deads. Add a hack to your leg workout and perhaps an extra rowing
>motion to your back routine.
>
>Why do you the deads in the first place?

I am going to add in hacks but doubt that has anything to do with
deadlifts. I do them as a good overall body workout. Mainly for
strength in my lower back but they hit all kinds of muscles. Even the
veins on my neck pop out. I have gone from using 120 lbs to 230 lbs
the six months since I started them. They must be doing something.

In news:mc5bv2dtjll0h521s0gs212qcqup18s5r1@4ax.com,
Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> typed:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:44:05 +0100, "Pete" <phoutstra@wanadoo.nl>
> wrote:
>
>> "Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> schreef:
>>
>>>> Between squats and deadlifts, both done say twice a week, you
>>>> should have absolutely no gas for upper body workouts. Soon
>>>> enough you'll reach those magic "proportional" numbers. ;-)
>>
>>> I have been dead with a one day a weak squat and deadlift.
>>
>> Drop the deads. Add a hack to your leg workout and perhaps an extra
>> rowing motion to your back routine.
>>
>> Why do you the deads in the first place?
>
> I am going to add in hacks but doubt that has anything to do with
> deadlifts. I do them as a good overall body workout. Mainly for
> strength in my lower back but they hit all kinds of muscles. Even the
> veins on my neck pop out. I have gone from using 120 lbs to 230 lbs
> the six months since I started them. They must be doing something.

Perhaps you're just getting better at doing them?

--
Bully
Protein bars: http://www.proteinbars.co.uk

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees
the opportunity in every difficulty." Sir Winston Churchill

On Mon, 12 Mar 2007 17:37:05 -0000, "Bully"
<bully62@proteinbars.co.ok> wrote:

>In news:mc5bv2dtjll0h521s0gs212qcqup18s5r1@4ax.com,
>Shute <Shute@nowhere.com> typed:
>> On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:44:05 +0100, "Pete" <phoutstra@wanadoo.nl>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> "Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> schreef:
>>>
>>>>> Between squats and deadlifts, both done say twice a week, you
>>>>> should have absolutely no gas for upper body workouts. Soon
>>>>> enough you'll reach those magic "proportional" numbers. ;-)
>>>
>>>> I have been dead with a one day a weak squat and deadlift.
>>>
>>> Drop the deads. Add a hack to your leg workout and perhaps an extra
>>> rowing motion to your back routine.
>>>
>>> Why do you the deads in the first place?
>>
>> I am going to add in hacks but doubt that has anything to do with
>> deadlifts. I do them as a good overall body workout. Mainly for
>> strength in my lower back but they hit all kinds of muscles. Even the
>> veins on my neck pop out. I have gone from using 120 lbs to 230 lbs
>> the six months since I started them. They must be doing something.
>
>Perhaps you're just getting better at doing them?

My back feels a lot stronger than it did.

"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:mc5bv2dtjll0h521s0gs212qcqup18s5r1@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:44:05 +0100, "Pete" <phoutstra@wanadoo.nl>
> wrote:
>
>>"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> schreef:
>>
>>>>Between squats and deadlifts, both done say twice a week, you should
>>>>have absolutely no gas for upper body workouts. Soon enough you'll
>>>>reach those magic "proportional" numbers. ;-)
>>
>>> I have been dead with a one day a weak squat and deadlift.
>>
>>Drop the deads. Add a hack to your leg workout and perhaps an extra rowing
>>motion to your back routine.
>>
>>Why do you the deads in the first place?
>
> I am going to add in hacks but doubt that has anything to do with
> deadlifts. I do them as a good overall body workout. Mainly for
> strength in my lower back but they hit all kinds of muscles. Even the
> veins on my neck pop out. I have gone from using 120 lbs to 230 lbs
> the six months since I started them. They must be doing something.
>
for me, i do 3 sets of v. heavy leg ext, 3-4 sets v. heavy incline leg press
and finish with heavy but slightly not as, free bar squats... deep. great
leg session.

3-4 sets calfs and ab work first tho...