For one particular "lurker"...

YO, OM! CHECK THIS OUT!

http://www.opensourcefood.com/

Bon appétit!

--
Curt

In article <1192675681.208554.313980@z24g2000prh.googlegroups .com>,
Curt <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote:

> YO, OM! CHECK THIS OUT!
>
> http://www.opensourcefood.com/
>
> Bon appétit!
>
> --
> Curt

<smiles>

Too many desserts, but still a fun site.

The website for the newsgroup I spend the most time on is here:

http://www.recfoodcooking.org/

When that site was being re-done, I donated many pics to it.
Those three on the main page are ones that I took. <g>

My favorite bottom round roast steak tartar is the pic on the far right.

I don't eat raw beef all the time, but sometimes I just "want" it!

CC has put together a really nice website with bi-weekly surveys.

Enjoy!
--
Peace, Om

Remove both _ (underscores) to validate gmail e-mails.

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down." -- Steve Rothstein

On Oct 18, 2:46 pm, Omelet <omp_omelet@g_mail.com> wrote:
> In article <1192675681.208554.313...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups .com>,
>
> Curt <curtja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > YO, OM! CHECK THIS OUT!
>
> >http://www.opensourcefood.com/
>
> > Bon appétit!
>
> > --
> > Curt
>
> <smiles>
>
> Too many desserts, but still a fun site.
>
> The website for the newsgroup I spend the most time on is here:
>
> http://www.recfoodcooking.org/
>
> When that site was being re-done, I donated many pics to it.
> Those three on the main page are ones that I took. <g>
>
> My favorite bottom round roast steak tartar is the pic on the far right.
>
> I don't eat raw beef all the time, but sometimes I just "want" it!
>
> CC has put together a really nice website with bi-weekly surveys.
>
> Enjoy!
> --
> Peace, Om
>
> Remove both _ (underscores) to validate gmail e-mails.
>
> "Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down." -- Steve Rothstein



I wish I could get excited about cooking. I only care about fine
dining. I don't know why I'm not more interested in cooking...I guess
shopping, preparation, and clean-up is too much of a chore. Actually
cooking -- boiling, frying, baking, etc. -- is fun, though.

In article <1192734091.122577.55350@z24g2000prh.googlegroups. com>,
Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I wish I could get excited about cooking. I only care about fine
> dining. I don't know why I'm not more interested in cooking...I guess
> shopping, preparation, and clean-up is too much of a chore. Actually
> cooking -- boiling, frying, baking, etc. -- is fun, though.

The trick is to do more than one day's cooking at a time, and know the
secret of properly re-heating leftovers. ;-)

Or eating salads and other raw foods.

Pita bread and tortillas are a good thing.
--
Peace, Om

Remove both _ (underscores) to validate gmail e-mails.

"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down." -- Steve Rothstein

On Oct 19, 1:27 pm, Omelet <omp_omelet@g_mail.com> wrote:
>
>
> The trick is to do more than one day's cooking at a time, and know the
> secret of properly re-heating leftovers. ;-)

Doesn't work for me: what I don't like is the chore of shopping,
preparation, and cleaning, which remain no matter how it's divided!

> Or eating salads and other raw foods.

Still gotta wash the veggies. And then it's a race against time to
eat them before the either go bad or lose too much nutritional value
(even if refrigerated).

> Pita bread and tortillas are a good thing.

Man, I wish I didn't care about weightlifting...then I'd just be a
runner and live off carbs!! I guess I'm kind of looking forward to
being fifty years old and only doing push-ups and chin-ups.

> --
> Peace, Om
>
> Remove both _ (underscores) to validate gmail e-mails.
>
> "Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down." -- Steve Rothstein

On Oct 19, 1:27 pm, Omelet <omp_omelet@g_mail.com> wrote:
>
>
> The trick is to do more than one day's cooking at a time, and know the
> secret of properly re-heating leftovers. ;-)

Doesn't work for me: what I don't like is the chore of shopping,
preparation, and cleaning, which remain no matter how it's divided!

> Or eating salads and other raw foods.

Still gotta wash the veggies. And then it's a race against time to
eat them before the either go bad or lose too much nutritional value
(even if refrigerated).

> Pita bread and tortillas are a good thing.

Man, I wish I didn't care about weightlifting...then I'd just be a
runner and live off carbs!! I guess I'm kind of looking forward to
being fifty years old and only doing push-ups and chin-ups.

> --
> Peace, Om
>
> Remove both _ (underscores) to validate gmail e-mails.
>
> "Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down." -- Steve Rothstein

Dnia Fri, 19 Oct 2007 o 21:23 GMT Prisoner at War napisa³(a):
> On Oct 19, 1:27 pm, Omelet <omp_omelet@g_mail.com> wrote:
[...[
>> Pita bread and tortillas are a good thing.
>
> Man, I wish I didn't care about weightlifting...then I'd just be a
> runner and live off carbs!! I guess I'm kind of looking forward to
> being fifty years old and only doing push-ups and chin-ups.

I think that you unnecessarily assume, that you'd lose muscles by eating
less protein. Randy Couture switched to less diary products (proteins)
to more greens (mostly carbs, of course) before he won his second UFC
title. At the octagon he appeared ripped. He was 40 years old at the
time, and he had to knock down Chuck Liddell and ground-and-pound Tito
Ortiz to get to the top.

BTW - he won heavyweight title again at the age of 43 and he started his
UFC career at 33 (by beating Belfort, iirc). Do you still consider yourself
old? ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Oct 19, 5:21 pm, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I think that you unnecessarily assume, that you'd lose muscles by eating
> less protein. Randy Couture switched to less diary products (proteins)
> to more greens (mostly carbs, of course) before he won his second UFC
> title. At the octagon he appeared ripped. He was 40 years old at the
> time, and he had to knock down Chuck Liddell and ground-and-pound Tito
> Ortiz to get to the top.

He could have been on steroids, for all anyone knows -- you how sports
is these days.

Not to detract from his achievements, but it is a general principle
that less calories means less strength. So if you're going to have
calories, why not get them from protein....

> BTW - he won heavyweight title again at the age of 43 and he started his
> UFC career at 33 (by beating Belfort, iirc). Do you still consider yourself
> old? ;-)

Not being able to really run or do chin-ups? I'm worse than old: I'm
at death's doorstep. Slam too hard and the whole house will crumble
like chalk. Benching 315-lbs., curling 50-lb. dumbbells seated, etc.,
only teaches me one thing: how very fragile it all is. Like the old
Soviet Union, it's only formidable on the surface. Inside, I have a
herniated disc, tendons around the elbow are fucked-up, and who knows
what else is in store.

It would be interesting to revisit these Ultimate Fighters in another
twenty or thirty years. Apparently, a lot of football players are
messed-up.

> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Dnia Mon, 22 Oct 2007 o 17:12 GMT Prisoner at War napisa³(a):
> On Oct 19, 5:21 pm, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think that you unnecessarily assume, that you'd lose muscles by eating
>> less protein. Randy Couture switched to less diary products (proteins)
>> to more greens (mostly carbs, of course) before he won his second UFC
>> title. At the octagon he appeared ripped. He was 40 years old at the
>> time, and he had to knock down Chuck Liddell and ground-and-pound Tito
>> Ortiz to get to the top.
>
> He could have been on steroids, for all anyone knows -- you how sports
> is these days.

I think that he wasn't. They test people and even find them positive at
times, so no big time juicing in American UFC.

> Not to detract from his achievements, but it is a general principle
> that less calories means less strength. So if you're going to have
> calories, why not get them from protein....

He was a top athlete. It seems, that at this level you can't just say
that a calorie is a calorie, no matter from where it came. Carbs are
good fuel, and he trained a lot. Besides, at his age relatively small
things like extra fiber or vitamines (or whatever is in greens) could
have an impact too.

>> BTW - he won heavyweight title again at the age of 43 and he started his
>> UFC career at 33 (by beating Belfort, iirc). Do you still consider yourself
>> old? ;-)
>
> Not being able to really run or do chin-ups? I'm worse than old: I'm
> at death's doorstep. Slam too hard and the whole house will crumble
> like chalk. Benching 315-lbs., curling 50-lb. dumbbells seated, etc.,
> only teaches me one thing: how very fragile it all is. Like the old
> Soviet Union, it's only formidable on the surface. Inside, I have a
> herniated disc, tendons around the elbow are fucked-up, and who knows
> what else is in store.

It looks, like the best time to finally get smart. ;-)

All what you write seems fixable within couple of years of smart
training. I'm not an expert beside things I had to fix, but others did
fairly well, so it's entirely possible.

BTW - Tendons can be fixed with shocks (gentle, at first). For example,
if you have bad tendons from too much curling, you stop curling.
Instead you do cleans or power curls. You train your tendons
specifically, so you don't care how much weight the rest of your body
could take until your tendons grow in strength. Judge by the amount of
pain you get _the next day_. It should be *right* amount, which means
that a little here and there isn't bad, but it must go away with time,
not get worse.

> It would be interesting to revisit these Ultimate Fighters in another
> twenty or thirty years. Apparently, a lot of football players are
> messed-up.

I've seen a video recently where they gathered ten older guys to put them
in the Hall of Fame. They all looked pretty damn tough. Some still
compete at times. It didn't look like they all will crumble to dust
within next ten years.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Oct 22, 11:35 am, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I think that he wasn't. They test people and even find them positive at
> times, so no big time juicing in American UFC.

Well, who knows. And that's what's so insidious about steroids: you
never know. And that sucks, it really does.

> He was a top athlete. It seems, that at this level you can't just say
> that a calorie is a calorie, no matter from where it came. Carbs are
> good fuel, and he trained a lot. Besides, at his age relatively small
> things like extra fiber or vitamines (or whatever is in greens) could
> have an impact too.

And I'm starting to think that for myself, too, in my advancing age.
Perhaps the difference between six reps and seven reps is one protein
shake...??

> It looks, like the best time to finally get smart. ;-)
>
> All what you write seems fixable within couple of years of smart
> training. I'm not an expert beside things I had to fix, but others did
> fairly well, so it's entirely possible.

But it still sucks, and that's my point. (BTW, how do I fix these
things with "smart" training??) Never had such problems before. You
know, just reaching for something too intensely has my muscles pulled
in a spasm of pain, like a Charlie Horse. You know, I was riding my
bike all day yesterday, and was chewing gum for most of the ride.
Right now, today, since this morning, guess what: I have a very sore
jaw, almost like I'd been in a fight! WTF is that, I ask you....

> BTW - Tendons can be fixed with shocks (gentle, at first). For example,
> if you have bad tendons from too much curling, you stop curling.
> Instead you do cleans or power curls.

WHAT?!?!?!?!

If I have muscular problems curling and doing chin-ups, how do you
recommend a clean????

> You train your tendons
> specifically, so you don't care how much weight the rest of your body
> could take until your tendons grow in strength. Judge by the amount of
> pain you get _the next day_. It should be *right* amount, which means
> that a little here and there isn't bad, but it must go away with time,
> not get worse.

That's the thing...the left elbow/biceps/whatever issue looks like it
wants to stay...I've tried resting it, whatever, and it would go away,
and then come back, even though I'm not doing anything I haven't ever
done before, which is why I blame old age...that's the only thing
that's different....

> I've seen a video recently where they gathered ten older guys to put them
> in the Hall of Fame. They all looked pretty damn tough. Some still
> compete at times. It didn't look like they all will crumble to dust
> within next ten years.

I don't either, but, like the Greco-Roman wrestler statue in the
museum that I look like, I'm made of chalk.

I am so not looking forward to old age.

Them ex-footballers were just testifying before Congress earlier this
year, weren't they? They still look big and beefy, but have all got
issues of one kind or another. What sucks is that I'm only doing
simple weightlifting and I'm hurt, whereas years ago nothing hurt me.

Can someone explain old age to me? I mean, if you were God, and you
didn't want people to be around forever, why not just make them die in
their sleep one fine evening and leave it at that? Why go through old
age, exactly?? What the heck is the point???

> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007, Prisoner at War wrote:

> Can someone explain old age to me? I mean, if you were God, and you
> didn't want people to be around forever, why not just make them die in
> their sleep one fine evening and leave it at that? Why go through old
> age, exactly??

No god.

tom

--
Demolish serious culture!

Dnia Mon, 22 Oct 2007 o 19:16 GMT Prisoner at War napisa³(a):
> On Oct 22, 11:35 am, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think that he wasn't. They test people and even find them positive at
>> times, so no big time juicing in American UFC.
> Well, who knows. And that's what's so insidious about steroids: you
> never know. And that sucks, it really does.

I, like, really doubt it in this case. He didn't look like he took
anything, and it shows when people start doing this crap which has a
chance of filtering through the tests. They do test them, not simply
joke about it, and they are seriously serious about public opinion.
They want to go mainstream, or something.

[...]
>> It looks, like the best time to finally get smart. ;-)
>>
>> All what you write seems fixable within couple of years of smart
>> training. I'm not an expert beside things I had to fix, but others did
>> fairly well, so it's entirely possible.
>
> But it still sucks, and that's my point.

Try crying yourself to sleep.

[...]
>> BTW - Tendons can be fixed with shocks (gentle, at first). For example,
>> if you have bad tendons from too much curling, you stop curling.
>> Instead you do cleans or power curls.
>
> WHAT?!?!?!?!
>
> If I have muscular problems curling and doing chin-ups, how do you
> recommend a clean????

It's easy. You simply tell a person to do cleans, and thusly you
recommended a clean. No biggie, you can do it too. Simply tell them to
_start_ _light_ and you'll be fine.

BTW - once your tendons recover a bit, try going back to doing explosive
chins. They are called kipping chins too.

>> You train your tendons
>> specifically, so you don't care how much weight the rest of your body
>> could take until your tendons grow in strength. Judge by the amount of
>> pain you get _the next day_. It should be *right* amount, which means
>> that a little here and there isn't bad, but it must go away with time,
>> not get worse.
>
> That's the thing...the left elbow/biceps/whatever issue looks like it
> wants to stay...I've tried resting it, whatever, and it would go away,
> and then come back, even though I'm not doing anything I haven't ever
> done before, which is why I blame old age...that's the only thing
> that's different....

You forgot to mention training age. It's a factor too.

>> I've seen a video recently where they gathered ten older guys to put them
>> in the Hall of Fame. They all looked pretty damn tough. Some still
>> compete at times. It didn't look like they all will crumble to dust
>> within next ten years.
>
> I don't either, but, like the Greco-Roman wrestler statue in the
> museum that I look like, I'm made of chalk.
>
> I am so not looking forward to old age.

Contrary to popular opinion, old age is entirely avoidable. ;-)

[...]
--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Oct 22, 1:25 pm, Tom Anderson <t...@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
>
>
> No god.

Mother Nature, Charles Darwin, whatever...what is the biological
function of old age? Why age? Why not just die and that's that?
What's the evolutionary benefit to a slow rotting away??

> tom
>
> --
> Demolish serious culture!

LOL...you'd want a serious operating system, wouldn't you...why don't
you want a serious culture?

Prisoner at War <prisoner_at_war@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Not being able to really run or do chin-ups? I'm worse than old: I'm
> at death's doorstep. Slam too hard and the whole house will crumble
> like chalk. Benching 315-lbs., curling 50-lb. dumbbells seated, etc.,
> only teaches me one thing: how very fragile it all is. Like the old
> Soviet Union, it's only formidable on the surface. Inside, I have a
> herniated disc, tendons around the elbow are fucked-up, and who knows
> what else is in store.

Two years ago I wrecked my elbow tendons badly enough with over
enthusiastic exercise that it was extremely painful if I lifted a mug
of tea the wrong way. After several months of complete rest the pain
went away. I then started exercising with 2lb dumb bells, which at
first I had to be very careful not to overdo. I ended up persisting
with a specific weight until I could do over a hundred reps with it
for a variety of exercises with a variety of forearm twists.

Now, two years later, I can do a one-arm lift and press of about 30lbs
and it's going up slowly but surely. I don't do curls, but am I right
in thinking that a pullup means you could curl half your body weight?
Patience, exercise variety, and initial long endurance training seem
to have been the key for me in recovering from my various joint and
tendon injuries over the years.

How old are you? I'm only 65 :-)

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Dnia Tue, 23 Oct 2007 o 13:44 GMT Chris Malcolm napisa³(a):
>
> Now, two years later, I can do a one-arm lift and press of about 30lbs
> and it's going up slowly but surely. I don't do curls, but am I right
> in thinking that a pullup means you could curl half your body weight?

Prime movers in pullups are lats, not biceps. Bodyweight strict curl is
very rare.

> Patience, exercise variety,

I'm pretty sure that variety isn't necessary. It may help, but people
recovered successfully using limited amount of exercises. If you use
many of them, there seem to be a higher chance that you "stumble upon"
the right exercises for you, but it's not the only way.

> and initial long endurance training

During training in general, but during recovery training in particular,
we always should strive to train the weakest link. You used very small
weights, because that was everything your weakest link could cope with
at the moment, but hundreds of reps probably weren't a key factor.

For example, chopping wood kills my wrist. Weights are manageable, reps
are huge, but I end up with symptoms of tendonitis. With high reps it's
often easy to overwork your connective tissue, like happens for bikers,
constructive workers or smiths.

> seem
> to have been the key for me in recovering from my various joint and
> tendon injuries over the years.

For me, using ballistic moves always help. Isometrics always kills my
tendons. I don't really know why it is so, but I've read on several
occasions about similar approaches and effects, so I'm not alone.

For example, heavy deads did kill my (tiny!) wrists several times.
Snatches and cleans never did it.

> How old are you? I'm only 65 :-)

He's got a bad case of pre-middle life crisis.

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dnia Tue, 23 Oct 2007 o 13:44 GMT Chris Malcolm napisa(a):

>> Now, two years later, I can do a one-arm lift and press of about 30lbs
>> and it's going up slowly but surely. I don't do curls, but am I right
>> in thinking that a pullup means you could curl half your body weight?

> Prime movers in pullups are lats, not biceps. Bodyweight strict curl is
> very rare.

I realise that, but is it not the case that when you're hanging from
the bar with your elbows at a right angle, and pull your weight
further up by bending your elbows further, that at that particular
point each bicep has to be pulling half your body weight? It seems to
me that by the simple mechanics of the situation that that must be the
case.

>> Patience, exercise variety,

> I'm pretty sure that variety isn't necessary. It may help, but people
> recovered successfully using limited amount of exercises. If you use
> many of them, there seem to be a higher chance that you "stumble upon"
> the right exercises for you, but it's not the only way.

I wasn't just trying to recover from that specific injury, however, I
was also trying to develop the generalised tendon and joint strength
to guard against future injuries.

>> and initial long endurance training

> During training in general, but during recovery training in particular,
> we always should strive to train the weakest link. You used very small
> weights, because that was everything your weakest link could cope with
> at the moment, but hundreds of reps probably weren't a key factor.

The only reason I went for the hundred reps was that I found by
experiment that if I shifted up by my available dumb bell smallest
weight increment of half a pound (that's adding 25% to two pounds :-)
at fifty reps, that I started to feel pain in the joint again.

> For example, chopping wood kills my wrist. Weights are manageable, reps
> are huge, but I end up with symptoms of tendonitis. With high reps it's
> often easy to overwork your connective tissue, like happens for bikers,
> constructive workers or smiths.

Yup, I had to keep to short trips on the bike while recovering,
because the strained forearm tendons could only handle clutch brake
and throttle for short periods.

>> seem
>> to have been the key for me in recovering from my various joint and
>> tendon injuries over the years.

> For me, using ballistic moves always help. Isometrics always kills my
> tendons. I don't really know why it is so, but I've read on several
> occasions about similar approaches and effects, so I'm not alone.

I suspect the isometric killer is simply the lack of movement under
strain, which inhibits blood supply and squeezes out lubricant. Even
small continuous strains, such as in holding hands cocked over a
keyboard while surfing the web, can end up straining tendons. Whereas
a really heavy moving strain which is followed immediately by unloaded
movement and rest keeps things lubricated and nourished, reducing
damage and allowing quick recovery.

When I was recovering from my back injury there was a time when I
could scramble up steep rocky slopes without problems, but walking
just a mile on the flat carrying a large book in one hand would
seriously knacker my back.

>> How old are you? I'm only 65 :-)
>
> He's got a bad case of pre-middle life crisis.

Age usually cures that :-)

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Dnia Wed, 24 Oct 2007 o 01:52 GMT Chris Malcolm napisa³(a):
> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dnia Tue, 23 Oct 2007 o 13:44 GMT Chris Malcolm napisa(a):
>
>> Prime movers in pullups are lats, not biceps. Bodyweight strict curl is
>> very rare.
>
> I realise that, but is it not the case that when you're hanging from
> the bar with your elbows at a right angle, and pull your weight
> further up by bending your elbows further, that at that particular
> point each bicep has to be pulling half your body weight? It seems to
> me that by the simple mechanics of the situation that that must be the
> case.

Actually, from the point of view of simple mechanics, an action of biceps
during pullup is optional. Lats bring your elbows toward your torso,
biceps bring your wrist toward your shoulders, but if you pull your
elbows down during pullups your shoulders will go up, and approach your
wrists sorta "accidentally".

Of course, your body isn't stupid, so it will activate everything it has
to do the job, but you can lessen your biceps activation by doing this
"mind-muscle" connection. If you put a mental effort in visualizing your
lats doing the job, they will work proportionally harder.

[...]
>> For me, using ballistic moves always help. Isometrics always kills my
>> tendons. I don't really know why it is so, but I've read on several
>> occasions about similar approaches and effects, so I'm not alone.
>
> I suspect the isometric killer is simply the lack of movement under
> strain, which inhibits blood supply and squeezes out lubricant. Even
> small continuous strains, such as in holding hands cocked over a
> keyboard while surfing the web, can end up straining tendons. Whereas
> a really heavy moving strain which is followed immediately by unloaded
> movement and rest keeps things lubricated and nourished, reducing
> damage and allowing quick recovery.

No nonsense model. It should explain at least part of the phenomenon.

But I still think that a shock and stretch during ballistic moves does
something positive to your connective tissue. I could be wrong, though.

[...]
>>> How old are you? I'm only 65 :-)
>> He's got a bad case of pre-middle life crisis.
> Age usually cures that :-)

Could be something else, too. I'm 36, and I'm definitely through with
my middle life crisis. ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Oct 23, 7:44 am, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Two years ago I wrecked my elbow tendons badly enough with over
> enthusiastic exercise that it was extremely painful if I lifted a mug
> of tea the wrong way. After several months of complete rest the pain
> went away. I then started exercising with 2lb dumb bells, which at
> first I had to be very careful not to overdo. I ended up persisting
> with a specific weight until I could do over a hundred reps with it
> for a variety of exercises with a variety of forearm twists.
>
> Now, two years later, I can do a one-arm lift and press of about 30lbs
> and it's going up slowly but surely. I don't do curls, but am I right
> in thinking that a pullup means you could curl half your body weight?
> Patience, exercise variety, and initial long endurance training seem
> to have been the key for me in recovering from my various joint and
> tendon injuries over the years.
>
> How old are you? I'm only 65 :-)
>
> --
> Chris Malcolm c...@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
> IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
> [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]


I'm 35 going on 80...look, it takes like an hour or two before my back
gets warmed up and stretched out and supple enough for me to consider
running after a bus in the morning...when I brush my teeth I can't
just bend over the sink, I must bend my knees, mostly!

But I see your point, and I congratulate you on such a recovery. I
never had it as bad as you, but then again I've never had it this bad
right now, either. Being hurt is new to me, and having to wait months
or years for complete recovery is depressing. I suppose it's one of
expectations...you could have only gotten better, whereas I'm not
fearful I could get worse, much worse. When I get to the gym, I want
to curl some dumbbells! And it really sucks not being able to with my
left arm (unless I use 30 or 35-pounders, which is weird 'cause my
right arm is doing the 50-pounder and so I only really get a "pump" in
one arm).

I'll try to be patient, bearing your example in mind...but in the
meantime, I have to howl in disgust. It's absolutely despicable to me
how frail the body is. I'm all for funding the mad scientists with
taxpayer dollars; screw them X-tain fundie dundies!

On Oct 22, 2:05 pm, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I, like, really doubt it in this case. He didn't look like he took
> anything, and it shows when people start doing this crap which has a
> chance of filtering through the tests. They do test them, not simply
> joke about it, and they are seriously serious about public opinion.
> They want to go mainstream, or something.

Well, it looks like "mainstream" means "drugs" these days, so....

> Try crying yourself to sleep.

But that's what I come here for!

> It's easy. You simply tell a person to do cleans, and thusly you
> recommended a clean. No biggie, you can do it too. Simply tell them to
> _start_ _light_ and you'll be fine.

Well, okay, but that'd have to be very light indeed. Which to me
isn't really weight-lifting: if it's so light, it's not a "weight"!

> BTW - once your tendons recover a bit, try going back to doing explosive
> chins. They are called kipping chins too.

Ah, you mean cheating by using momentum? I was actually thinking
about that when I made the previous post: perhaps I was "too correct"
in my form, 'cause I do things slow and steady, and perhaps there are
"weak points" along the ROM which need to be quickly passed over
instead of slowly gone through...IOW, I might have injured myself not
from being too fast, as is often the case with sports injuries, but
being too slow!!

> You forgot to mention training age. It's a factor too.

Training age?? You mean, how long one's been training for real (as
opposed to just "working out")??

> Contrary to popular opinion, old age is entirely avoidable. ;-)

Yes, well, the day I stop having any fun is the day I go and off
myself somewhere in the woods. I'm just too curious to see where
everything's going to go to do that right now, for all my complaints.

> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Dnia Thu, 25 Oct 2007 o 19:20 GMT Prisoner at War napisa³(a):
> On Oct 22, 2:05 pm, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> I, like, really doubt it in this case. He didn't look like he took
>> anything, and it shows when people start doing this crap which has a
>> chance of filtering through the tests. They do test them, not simply
>> joke about it, and they are seriously serious about public opinion.
>> They want to go mainstream, or something.
>
> Well, it looks like "mainstream" means "drugs" these days, so....

Mainstream in terms of public acceptance. IMO most of the UFC
competitors, most of the time do not juice. Pride (a Japanese
organization) is another matter, of course.

[...]
>> It's easy. You simply tell a person to do cleans, and thusly you
>> recommended a clean. No biggie, you can do it too. Simply tell them to
>> _start_ _light_ and you'll be fine.
>
> Well, okay, but that'd have to be very light indeed. Which to me
> isn't really weight-lifting: if it's so light, it's not a "weight"!

You have a choice. You can go on, until one of your bicep tendons snaps.
Then you'll have no choice.

>> BTW - once your tendons recover a bit, try going back to doing explosive
>> chins. They are called kipping chins too.
>
> Ah, you mean cheating by using momentum? I was actually thinking
> about that when I made the previous post: perhaps I was "too correct"
> in my form, 'cause I do things slow and steady, and perhaps there are
> "weak points" along the ROM which need to be quickly passed over
> instead of slowly gone through...IOW, I might have injured myself not
> from being too fast, as is often the case with sports injuries, but
> being too slow!!

Could be, but don't go overboard in the other direction all at once.
You need to build your body up to it first.

There is a reason I recommend one-armed lifts (beyond that I simply like
them). You can lift with one arm and lower the weight using two (or
drop the weight, if you are lucky enough to be able to do it). The
point is, that you shouldn't try catching the weight on the way down.
As you get tired, you slow the descent of weight less and less, but you
still try to catch it, so the force your connective tissue must absorb
gets bigger as you get more tired. It's much safer to simply drop it,
or lower it using both arms.

>> You forgot to mention training age. It's a factor too.
>
> Training age?? You mean, how long one's been training for real (as
> opposed to just "working out")??

Yes, even without "as opposed to". Working out is training too, and if
you make gains by working out, you reach some level of adaptation.

>> Contrary to popular opinion, old age is entirely avoidable. ;-)
>
> Yes, well, the day I stop having any fun is the day I go and off
> myself somewhere in the woods.

There will be days like that, and you'll probably won't go and off
anything. It takes much more than mere lack of fun to even seriously
consider the matter. It takes some serious amounts of suffering, my
son (I'm feeling old today, obviously). ;-)

> I'm just too curious to see where
> everything's going to go to do that right now, for all my complaints.

There will be days, when you'll not be curious anymore, and you'll still
find some excuses for not going and offing.

I'm just trying to be supportive. ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dnia Wed, 24 Oct 2007 o 01:52 GMT Chris Malcolm napisa?(a):
>> Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Dnia Tue, 23 Oct 2007 o 13:44 GMT Chris Malcolm napisa(a):
>>
>>> Prime movers in pullups are lats, not biceps. Bodyweight strict curl is
>>> very rare.
>>
>> I realise that, but is it not the case that when you're hanging from
>> the bar with your elbows at a right angle, and pull your weight
>> further up by bending your elbows further, that at that particular
>> point each bicep has to be pulling half your body weight? It seems to
>> me that by the simple mechanics of the situation that that must be the
>> case.

> Actually, from the point of view of simple mechanics, an action of biceps
> during pullup is optional. Lats bring your elbows toward your torso,
> biceps bring your wrist toward your shoulders, but if you pull your
> elbows down during pullups your shoulders will go up, and approach your
> wrists sorta "accidentally".

> Of course, your body isn't stupid, so it will activate everything it has
> to do the job, but you can lessen your biceps activation by doing this
> "mind-muscle" connection. If you put a mental effort in visualizing your
> lats doing the job, they will work proportionally harder.

You're right. I hadn't thought it through properly; thanks.

--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

On Oct 25, 1:57 pm, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Mainstream in terms of public acceptance. IMO most of the UFC
> competitors, most of the time do not juice. Pride (a Japanese
> organization) is another matter, of course.

UFC folks don't juice much? I'd be extremely surprised. But you
follow it more than I do -- actually, I don't. Hope you're right,
then.

Funny the Japanese do...maybe they're shorter and skinnier and so have
to??

> You have a choice. You can go on, until one of your bicep tendons snaps.
> Then you'll have no choice.

Which brings me back to my complaint about old age: it sucks!!

> Could be, but don't go overboard in the other direction all at once.
> You need to build your body up to it first.

You know what, I was doing further thinking...I think the chin-ups
were just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back...it was
them wrist curls that probably did me in! As I recall this past
summer, I remember doing barbell wrist curls with heavy weights, I
don't remember how much but of course I went heavy...and I was having
a blast doing them, then I had a funny, almost painful feeling one day
and stopped doing them but kept up with everything else, like chin-
ups...I think that's what had happened....

> There is a reason I recommend one-armed lifts (beyond that I simply like
> them). You can lift with one arm and lower the weight using two (or
> drop the weight, if you are lucky enough to be able to do it). The
> point is, that you shouldn't try catching the weight on the way down.
> As you get tired, you slow the descent of weight less and less, but you
> still try to catch it, so the force your connective tissue must absorb
> gets bigger as you get more tired. It's much safer to simply drop it,
> or lower it using both arms.

I thought you were joking...what do you mean one-armed lifts??? You
mean like them one-armed chin-ups, one-armed push-ups??

> Yes, even without "as opposed to". Working out is training too, and if
> you make gains by working out, you reach some level of adaptation.

Well, heck, I've been training, off and on, since forever, man!
Weight-training in particular, more than ten years, off and on...and
all I got is this lousy tank top!

> There will be days like that, and you'll probably won't go and off
> anything. It takes much more than mere lack of fun to even seriously
> consider the matter. It takes some serious amounts of suffering, my
> son (I'm feeling old today, obviously). ;-)

Everything feels so stupid...why lift? Yet, why not? Yet, why is my
freakin' body breaking down?? The biggest "high" that comes with
exercise is feeling your own strength, your own vigor...but when
that's denied me, I get angry. So-called "off-days" I understand, but
this premature breaking down of the body I hate! More than suffering,
I hate stupidity...it seems stupid to be 35 and not able to curl with
my left arm. It's stupid that I'm only 35 and have such a bad back.
Just stupid, like a car without a steering wheel or something.
Ridiculous.

> There will be days, when you'll not be curious anymore, and you'll still
> find some excuses for not going and offing.
>
> I'm just trying to be supportive. ;-)

Actually, I'd like to know where I can get them painless fast-acting
cyanide pills (or whatever). I mean, just in case I get truly,
seriously bored with things. I think I'm half-way there, and I'd like
to be prepared when the time comes.

In the meantime, I'm still curious how things will turn out for me,
and whether this freaking left arm/elbow will ever heal...I don't
think my back will ever heal. Jesus Fucking Christ.

> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

In article <ffr00l$3gn$1@inews.gazeta.pl>,
Andrzej Rosa <bakters@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Dnia Thu, 25 Oct 2007 o 20:58 GMT Prisoner at War napisa³(a):
> > On Oct 25, 1:57 pm, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
--- snip ---
> >
> > In the meantime, I'm still curious how things will turn out for me,
> > and whether this freaking left arm/elbow will ever heal...I don't
> > think my back will ever heal. Jesus Fucking Christ.
>
> IMO you should start with giving yourself a week of rest. Catch a cold,
> if you have to, but stay away from gym and do not runh. Light stretching
> is fine.
>
> You'll see that your attitude will improve. Trust me, I'm an expert on
> this. ;-)

I think as you age joint health and mobility should become a priority.
But it isn't rocket science. I'll be 50 in a few months and I've got
more hard miles on my body than most, but it still works okay. But I had
to learn to do a couple of things.

First, check the freakin' ego at the door when you go to a gym. The gym
is to train, not compete. If you want to compete - compete. But you
still have to train rationally.

Second, make a list of 'pre'-hab exercises and do them.

I like to work my external rotators fairly hard - cuban presses and
internal/external rotation. That Canadian Stuart Mcsomething's book on
lower backs is supposed to be the real deal. I've never had to worry
about that, so I don't.

Elbows and things like that - well, injuries suck at any age. I've had
my share, but I had them when I was younger too. Give it a chance to
heal.

Why you would do a stoopid freakin' exercise like heavy wrist curls is
beyond me. If you have a problem they really don't have to be done
heavy. They are another one of those isolation exercises that I think
have little practical usage at all. You want strong grip - pull heavy,
do farmer's walks, etc. There just aren't enough hours in a day for
wrist curls. Even someone competing as a arm-wrestlers would be better
off doing pull-ups on a rope and things like that. Okay, maybe an
arm-wrestler should be doing wrist curls - but other than that...

I think everyone should do some form of gymnastics - tumbling.
Break-falls - I don't care what you call it. Learn to manage your body.
If you tumble you get a pretty good mobility training and you minimize
injury chances.

Hips, knees, ankles - I'd start thinking about something to keep them
healthy. You better start on shoulders, elbows and wrists now as you are
already having problems.

--
Keith

Dnia Thu, 25 Oct 2007 o 20:58 GMT Prisoner at War napisa³(a):
> On Oct 25, 1:57 pm, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Mainstream in terms of public acceptance. IMO most of the UFC
>> competitors, most of the time do not juice. Pride (a Japanese
>> organization) is another matter, of course.
>
> UFC folks don't juice much? I'd be extremely surprised. But you
> follow it more than I do -- actually, I don't. Hope you're right,
> then.

I don't say they never do or never did it before, but it's not a
standard practice.

> Funny the Japanese do...maybe they're shorter and skinnier and so have
> to??

Most prominent fighters aren't Japanese. For several years the champion
is Russian, for example.

[...]
>> Could be, but don't go overboard in the other direction all at once.
>> You need to build your body up to it first.
>
> You know what, I was doing further thinking...I think the chin-ups
> were just the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back...it was
> them wrist curls that probably did me in! As I recall this past
> summer, I remember doing barbell wrist curls with heavy weights, I
> don't remember how much but of course I went heavy...and I was having
> a blast doing them, then I had a funny, almost painful feeling one day
> and stopped doing them but kept up with everything else, like chin-
> ups...I think that's what had happened....

Possible.

>> There is a reason I recommend one-armed lifts (beyond that I simply like
>> them). You can lift with one arm and lower the weight using two (or
>> drop the weight, if you are lucky enough to be able to do it). The
>> point is, that you shouldn't try catching the weight on the way down.
>> As you get tired, you slow the descent of weight less and less, but you
>> still try to catch it, so the force your connective tissue must absorb
>> gets bigger as you get more tired. It's much safer to simply drop it,
>> or lower it using both arms.
>
> I thought you were joking...what do you mean one-armed lifts??? You
> mean like them one-armed chin-ups, one-armed push-ups??

Pushups and chinups are exercises. I meant lifts, where you pick
something heavy and lift it overhead. To do it efficiently, you need
speed.

[...]
>> There will be days like that, and you'll probably won't go and off
>> anything. It takes much more than mere lack of fun to even seriously
>> consider the matter. It takes some serious amounts of suffering, my
>> son (I'm feeling old today, obviously). ;-)
>
> Everything feels so stupid...why lift? Yet, why not? Yet, why is my
> freakin' body breaking down?? The biggest "high" that comes with
> exercise is feeling your own strength, your own vigor...but when
> that's denied me, I get angry. So-called "off-days" I understand, but
> this premature breaking down of the body I hate! More than suffering,
> I hate stupidity...it seems stupid to be 35 and not able to curl with
> my left arm. It's stupid that I'm only 35 and have such a bad back.
> Just stupid, like a car without a steering wheel or something.
> Ridiculous.

So, finally do something about it.

>> There will be days, when you'll not be curious anymore, and you'll still
>> find some excuses for not going and offing.
>>
>> I'm just trying to be supportive. ;-)
>
> Actually, I'd like to know where I can get them painless fast-acting
> cyanide pills (or whatever). I mean, just in case I get truly,
> seriously bored with things. I think I'm half-way there, and I'd like
> to be prepared when the time comes.
>
> In the meantime, I'm still curious how things will turn out for me,
> and whether this freaking left arm/elbow will ever heal...I don't
> think my back will ever heal. Jesus Fucking Christ.

IMO you should start with giving yourself a week of rest. Catch a cold,
if you have to, but stay away from gym and do not runh. Light stretching
is fine.

You'll see that your attitude will improve. Trust me, I'm an expert on
this. ;-)

--
Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Oct 25, 4:57 pm, Andrzej Rosa <bakt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I don't say they never do or never did it before, but it's not a
> standard practice.

Hope you're right -- but I would be surprised if you were!

> Most prominent fighters aren't Japanese. For several years the champion
> is Russian, for example.

And I'd be surprised if they were Japanese, or Asian at all. Most
"high" Asian cultures aren't into that kind of a thing, brute strength
and speed. Such Asian cultures are more into skill and cunning. I
wonder whether it's because the people tend to be shorter and smaller-
framed, or whether the culture encourages shorter and smaller-framed
people (in a culture which eschews violence, there's no genetic
advantage to being a big Mongolian raider)...??

> Possible.

Yep, 'cause I ***never*** had that problem before, and I'm so hard-
core I didn't even know I was hard-core...until I'm all broke-dick
now! I was doing them wrist curls and reverse wrist curls three days
a week, six to ten sets of ten to fifteen reps with forty-pound
barbells or something...I think that's what started aggravating
things...that, and piano practice...at the time, I was really focusing
on my left hand in the piano and my left arm in the gym...and now it's
all fucked-up, despite all the rest I could reasonably give it!!!

> Pushups and chinups are exercises. I meant lifts, where you pick
> something heavy and lift it overhead. To do it efficiently, you need
> speed.

Yeah, well, as exercises, I thought it would be cool to do chin-ups
slowly. Looks like I fucked-up an already bad situation by having
done my chins so slowly as to have stressed-out the elbow tendons at a
certain weak point in the elbow ROM....

> So, finally do something about it.

If only I could! That's what's so frustrating about injuries, is that
you basically are supposed to wait it out...but there's no guarantee
of recovery, and you don't even know how long is optimal...it's the
equivalent of the ninety-pound weakling lifting weights day-in and day-
out, wondering when he's going to get muscles...there are a million
factors involved and none of them guarantee results....

> IMO you should start with giving yourself a week of rest. Catch a cold,
> if you have to, but stay away from gym and do not runh. Light stretching
> is fine.

Dude, I gave my back like a whole year of rest. I stopped jogging for
a whole year, and didn't really jog much (once a month, like) for
about another year. And it's still fucked up. Just this morning I
was running to catch the bus. I felt like a fat pussy doing it,
'cause I could not utilize my back at all or I would have busted it.
So instead of leaning forward in a sprint I had to keep the back
straight and bop up and down like a baby learning to chase a rolling
cookie...once a guy even whispered to his buddy, why is that guy
running in slow motion...it would be hilarious if it weren't so sad!

So I'm not really optimistic about the elbow, either...I hate old age,
and I'm starting to look at old people in a funny way, too. They're
starting to scare me now.

> You'll see that your attitude will improve. Trust me, I'm an expert on
> this. ;-)

Eh? Were we separated at birth or something??

> --
> Andrzej Rosa 1127R

On Oct 25, 5:24 pm, Hobbes <khobman...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I think as you age joint health and mobility should become a priority.

Yeah, I hear ya! There isn't a week now when I don't have a joint
"pop" or creak or something...I'm not kidding! Practically every time
I'm in the gym, whether stretching out or simply moving around,
something will snap or creak or whatever. I wonder whether I'm only
more aware of such things now because of my paranoia or whether it's
another sign of impending old age!

Man, this is going to be the scariest Holloween ever.

> But it isn't rocket science. I'll be 50 in a few months and I've got
> more hard miles on my body than most, but it still works okay. But I had
> to learn to do a couple of things.
>
> First, check the freakin' ego at the door when you go to a gym. The gym
> is to train, not compete. If you want to compete - compete. But you
> still have to train rationally.

Well, I basically do check my ego at the door -- I compete 99% with
myself...or how I remember once being! And unless I have a completely
wrong understanding of proper, rational training, I don't think I'm
being "hard-core" like I used to be....

> Second, make a list of 'pre'-hab exercises and do them.
>
> I like to work my external rotators fairly hard - cuban presses and
> internal/external rotation. That Canadian Stuart Mcsomething's book on
> lower backs is supposed to be the real deal. I've never had to worry
> about that, so I don't.

You mean Stuart McGill? I've got his book "Lower Back Disorders" in
my amazon.com cart! But it's like $40 and I've been putting off
actually getting it (I know, I should look for it in the library).
Apparently it's got instructions on how to actually heal a bad back,
which is really interesting. I mean, nurse it back to health, not
just accommodate it....

I hate rehab exercises, though. I go to the gym to sweat, and sweat
hard!

> Elbows and things like that - well, injuries suck at any age. I've had
> my share, but I had them when I was younger too. Give it a chance to
> heal.

I did! Gave that back about two years to heal; never did. Okay, so I
kept bike riding even though I stopped jogging. But still...I never
had problems when younger. So old age is the culprit. Not bad form,
not bad exercises, not bad training methods...old age!

They really ought to do something about it. Why we accept it as
natural in 2007 is beyond me.

> Why you would do a stoopid freakin' exercise like heavy wrist curls is
> beyond me.

What makes it stupid? I was hoping to get my forearms stronger and
more muscular-looking, and that's supposed to be the exercise for
that.

> If you have a problem they really don't have to be done
> heavy. They are another one of those isolation exercises that I think
> have little practical usage at all. You want strong grip - pull heavy,
> do farmer's walks, etc. There just aren't enough hours in a day for
> wrist curls. Even someone competing as a arm-wrestlers would be better
> off doing pull-ups on a rope and things like that. Okay, maybe an
> arm-wrestler should be doing wrist curls - but other than that...

I must say, deadlifts have been fun for the forearms, too. As for
farmer's walks, well, I really enjoy hauling heavy bags of groceries
around! I even hauled a 18,000 BTU air conditioner through the NYC
subways four years ago. I really enjoyed that. If I could make a
goo