OT: Beware of pool dangers

You just, well, I don't think this kind of thing happens. Absurd. Did
anyone see the story about the amusement park ride that took the feet
off a child? Chain snapped and whizzz, like some Final Destination
horror film.

Now here's another tale of terror. Protect your children. I mean, who
would think something like this could happen?

The worst part of the article: "Abigail will have to be fed
intravenously for the rest of her life and will have to have a
colostomy bag."

Hold that thought, actually, the following is the worst part: "an
official at the golf club expressed sympathy for the family and said
he didn't think anything was wrong with the pool but referred
questions to the club's attorney, who declined to comment."

WHAAAAA??? Nothing wrong with the pool? Hey, pal, next time just stfu
and walk away from the reporter, okay?



Pool Drain Pulls Small Intestine Out Of Young Girl
Image

Heather Brown
Reporting

(WCCO) Minneapolis A 6-year-old Edina, Minn. girl has been
hospitalized after a horrific accident at a swimming pool.

Abigail Taylor was severely injured Friday when she sat over an open
drain hole in a wading pool at the Minneapolis Golf Club.

Now Abigail's father has a warning to other families: Pool and hot tub
drain accidents are a hidden danger that many of us don't understand.

Abigail has big brown eyes, a dazzling smile and at just 6 years old
she has already competed in local swim meets.

"She loves to swim," said her father Scott Taylor.

Her love of swimming is why her family didn't think twice when she
played at a kiddie pool at the family's golf club on Friday night.

Taylor said as Abigail was getting out of the pool, she fell.

"She more or less blacked out, she passed out, fell face-first onto
the pool decking," he said. The family thought it was a seizure.

An ambulance rushed her to Children's Hospital in Minneapolis. Several
hours later a surgeon said Abigail was lucky to be alive.

"The suction had caused a two-inch tear in her rectum and had
basically disemboweled her by pulling out her small intestines, almost
all of it," said Taylor.

Her father said a search of the pool filter turned up Abigail's
intestine. He said Abigail was seriously wounded because the cover of
the drain had been removed.

In most public pools the drain cover is screwed in and cannot be
pulled off. According to the Consumer Product Safety Commission, the
pressure on some pool drains can be as strong as 300 pounds per square
inch.

"It never even crosses anybody's mind that potential at the bottom of
that pool is enough force to literally disembowel a child, an adult,"
said Taylor.

Abigail will have to be fed intravenously for the rest of her life and
will have to have a colostomy bag.

"We view it as a miracle that she's still with us," her father said.

She is improving. Wednesday morning she stunned her family by asking a
question.

"She said, 'Am I going to be on the news?' She said, 'Why do you ask?'
She said, 'Because I want to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone
else,'" recalled Taylor.

Since 1990, 170 people, mostly children, have been caught in drains
and 27 of them have died. Legislation is pending that would require
pools and hot tubs to have multiple drains to ease the suction.

Some pools have a safety vacuum cutoff which shuts down if someone is
trapped. New drain covers which cost less than $50 can also help.

According to the Associated Press, an official at the golf club
expressed sympathy for the family and said he didn't think anything
was wrong with the pool, but referred questions to the club's
attorney, who declined to comment. /copy and paste from
http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_185085504.html

--

On Jul 5, 7:06 pm, Curt <curtja...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hold that thought, actually, the following is the worst part: "an
> official at the golf club expressed sympathy for the family and said
> he didn't think anything was wrong with the pool but referred
> questions to the club's attorney, who declined to comment."
>
> WHAAAAA??? Nothing wrong with the pool? Hey, pal, next time just stfu
> and walk away from the reporter, okay?

Why? Would that be "ethical?"

And by the way "was wrong" can mean "had been wrong."

But again, ethics. See how it works?

Kavin

On Thu, 5 Jul 2007, Curt wrote:

> The worst part of the article: "Abigail will have to be fed
> intravenously for the rest of her life and will have to have a colostomy
> bag."

Sounds fucking awful, i have to say. And this is not a safety hazard how?

Anyway, Chuck Palahniuk wrote a short story about this, funnily enough:

http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/books/haunted/guts.php

tom

--
3118110161 Pies

Tom Anderson wrote:
> Curt wrote:
> > The worst part of the article: "Abigail will have to be fed
> > intravenously for the rest of her life and will have to have a colostomy
> > bag."
>
> Sounds fucking awful, i have to say.

Agreed.

> And this is not a safety hazard how?

And agreed. How those people talking to the news reporter were not
scooping their kids out of the pool at that moment, I don't
understand. I emailed my brother and gave him the drain-pool-hot-tub-
suction-intestines babbling rant of a warning immediately after
reading the story.

Of course you can't guard against every possible nigthmare, but I'll
be checking the drain covers on every wading pool from now on.

> Anyway, Chuck Palahniuk wrote a short story about this, funnily enough:
>
> http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/books/haunted/guts.php

Blecch. But even a bad story has some humor. Well, this one did:

"Another big problem was my folks paid a lot of good money for that
swimming pool."

Ha!

Anyway.

--
Curt

On Jul 6, 5:47 am, Tom Anderson <t...@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Jul 2007, Curt wrote:
> > The worst part of the article: "Abigail will have to be fed
> > intravenously for the rest of her life and will have to have a colostomy
> > bag."
>
> Sounds fucking awful, i have to say. And this is not a safety hazard how?
>
> Anyway, Chuck Palahniuk wrote a short story about this, funnily enough:
>
> http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/books/haunted/guts.php
>
> tom
>
> --
> 3118110161 Pies



I'm absolutely puzzled at this author's popularity. Sounds like
Stephen King Lite for those with literary affectations.

Prisoner at War wrote:
> Tom Anderson wrote:
[...]

re disembowelment

> > <snip>Chuck Palahniuk wrote a short story about this, funnily enough:
>
> > http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/books/haunted/guts.php
[...]

> I'm absolutely puzzled at this author's popularity. Sounds like
> Stephen King Lite for those with literary affectations.

Well, Stephen King is very popular. Even a so-called Lite version
would certainly have at least some appeal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Palahniuk

Hmm. I forgot this bit of trivia... from the Wiki: "He is best known
for the award-winning novel Fight Club, which was later made into a
film directed by David Fincher."

Ha!

Note to d wells: There's a caption on that Wiki page, too, that
mentions the author's "Roses and Shit Tour 2006". Roses are coming up
everywhere!

(continues reading Wiki entry)

While on his 2003 tour to promote his novel Diary, Palahniuk read to
his audiences a short story titled "Guts", a tale of accidents
involving masturbation, which appears in his book Haunted. It was
reported that more than 73 people fainted while listening to the
readings <snip> Audio recordings of his readings of the story have
since circulated on the Internet. In the afterword of the latest
edition of "Haunted", Palahniuk reports that "Guts" is now responsible
for 73 faintings. /copy and paste

Wtf? I wouldn't call it disturbing as much as simply gross. And I sure
as hell didn't faint. Disgusting, and blecch-worthy, okay, but faint?
Uh uh.

I'm enjoying Lee Child's work recently and just purchased the new
James Rollins novel, 'The Judas Strain' which is another of Rollins'
globe-spanning thrillers. Although I've browsed at least one Palahniuk
book at Barnes and Noble, I haven't bought any of his works. Yet.

--
Curt

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 15:43:36 -0700, Curt <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote:

>Prisoner at War wrote:
>> Tom Anderson wrote:
>[...]
>
>re disembowelment
>
>> > <snip>Chuck Palahniuk wrote a short story about this, funnily enough:
>>
>> > http://www.chuckpalahniuk.net/books/haunted/guts.php
>[...]
>
>> I'm absolutely puzzled at this author's popularity. Sounds like
>> Stephen King Lite for those with literary affectations.
>
>Well, Stephen King is very popular. Even a so-called Lite version
>would certainly have at least some appeal.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Palahniuk
>
>Hmm. I forgot this bit of trivia... from the Wiki: "He is best known
>for the award-winning novel Fight Club, which was later made into a
>film directed by David Fincher."
>
>Ha!
>
>Note to d wells: There's a caption on that Wiki page, too, that
>mentions the author's "Roses and Shit Tour 2006". Roses are coming up
>everywhere!
>
You missed a chance to do your Ethel Merman:

Every-thing's coming up ro-ses.



>(continues reading Wiki entry)
>
>While on his 2003 tour to promote his novel Diary, Palahniuk read to
>his audiences a short story titled "Guts", a tale of accidents
>involving masturbation, which appears in his book Haunted. It was
>reported that more than 73 people fainted while listening to the
>readings <snip> Audio recordings of his readings of the story have
>since circulated on the Internet. In the afterword of the latest
>edition of "Haunted", Palahniuk reports that "Guts" is now responsible
>for 73 faintings. /copy and paste
>
>Wtf? I wouldn't call it disturbing as much as simply gross. And I sure
>as hell didn't faint. Disgusting, and blecch-worthy, okay, but faint?
>Uh uh.
>
>I'm enjoying Lee Child's work recently and just purchased the new
>James Rollins novel, 'The Judas Strain' which is another of Rollins'
>globe-spanning thrillers. Although I've browsed at least one Palahniuk
>book at Barnes and Noble, I haven't bought any of his works. Yet.

d wells wrote:
> Curt wrote:
[...]

re http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Palahniuk
[...]

> > Note to d wells: There's a caption on that Wiki page, too, that
> > mentions the author's "Roses and Shit Tour 2006". Roses are coming up
> > everywhere!
>
> You missed a chance to do your Ethel Merman:
>
> Every-thing's coming up ro-ses.

[...]

Ethel Merman, eh? Haven't thought of her in quite some time.

(Googles)

She was married to Ernest Borgnine.

For 32 days.

I did not know that.

--
Curt

On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 16:06:26 -0700, Curt <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote:

>You just, well, I don't think this kind of thing happens. Absurd. Did
>anyone see the story about the amusement park ride that took the feet
>off a child? Chain snapped and whizzz, like some Final Destination
>horror film.
>
>Now here's another tale of terror. Protect your children. I mean, who
>would think something like this could happen?
>
>The worst part of the article: "Abigail will have to be fed
>intravenously for the rest of her life and will have to have a
>colostomy bag."
>
>Hold that thought, actually, the following is the worst part: "an
>official at the golf club expressed sympathy for the family and said
>he didn't think anything was wrong with the pool but referred
>questions to the club's attorney, who declined to comment."
>
>WHAAAAA??? Nothing wrong with the pool? Hey, pal, next time just stfu
>and walk away from the reporter, okay?

Is this a new thing? I have been in quite a few pools before and the
drain is in the deepest part. It is hard enough to get that deep and
I can't imagine sitting down there on the drain. Maybe they installed
a drain for large pool like that on a tiny kiddie pool.

Shute <S...@nowhere.com> wrote:
[...]

> Is this a new thing? I have been in quite a few pools before and the
> drain is in the deepest part. It is hard enough to get that deep and
> I can't imagine sitting down there on the drain. Maybe they installed
> a drain for large pool like that on a tiny kiddie pool.

Well, in the Chuck Palahniuk story 'Guts' the character had a specific
reason for sitting on the drain. For the little girl, I don't believe
the explained the 'why' in any detail.

http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_185085504.html and article
titled 'Pool Drain Pulls Small Intestine Out Of Young Girl'

Regardless of the why, it's a terrible result. And, iirc, from the
related articles there was a $90 million payout to the family of a 5-
year-old boy who suffered a similar fate. Perhaps operating the drain
only when the pool is closed would be an option. Dunno.

Definitely possible to supervise your child with the full knowledge
that drains can be hella powerful and obviously life threatening.

--
Curt

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:02:01 -0000, Curt <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote:

>Shute <S...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>[...]
>
>> Is this a new thing? I have been in quite a few pools before and the
>> drain is in the deepest part. It is hard enough to get that deep and
>> I can't imagine sitting down there on the drain. Maybe they installed
>> a drain for large pool like that on a tiny kiddie pool.
>
>Well, in the Chuck Palahniuk story 'Guts' the character had a specific
>reason for sitting on the drain. For the little girl, I don't believe
>the explained the 'why' in any detail.
>
>http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_185085504.html and article
>titled 'Pool Drain Pulls Small Intestine Out Of Young Girl'
>
>Regardless of the why, it's a terrible result. And, iirc, from the
>related articles there was a $90 million payout to the family of a 5-
>year-old boy who suffered a similar fate. Perhaps operating the drain
>only when the pool is closed would be an option. Dunno.
>
>Definitely possible to supervise your child with the full knowledge
>that drains can be hella powerful and obviously life threatening.

They didn't explain anything. The whole story is full of holes. It's
sole intent to make you upset you so they can get their 90 million and
the newspapers can sell papers.. So for starters why was she sitting
on the drain and why was it in a location where a kid would do that?
Why was it so powerful if it was just kiddie pool? Why didn't anyone
notice until she got out of the pool? Wasn't anyone even watching
little 6 year olds playing in the water? Why didn't she scream or
call out. surely it must have hurt? Once she was free how come nobody
noticed what had happened? Surely her bathing suite must have
suffered some damage or there would have bee at least a little blood.

Shute wrote:

re http://wcco.com/topstories/local_sto...085504.htmland article
titled 'Pool Drain Pulls Small Intestine Out Of Young Girl'

> They didn't explain anything. The whole story is full of holes.

It was an article and not a book, Shute. Naturally, it's going to be
incomplete.

> It's sole intent to make you upset

Duh.

Not exactly a heart-warming story, right? The sensationalistic nature
of the news is obvious, but I'd say partial intent would be to serve
as a warning as well: Shit still happens. Watch your @$$ (honestly, no
pun intended). Supervise your children. And so on.

> you so they can get their 90 million

Iirc, it's a private club, but that doesn't mean their pockets are
that deep. Likewise, I'm not certain the $90 million story is a fact.
Not sure I'd take $90 million if it had a colostomy bag attached to
it. I'd like to think I wouldn't.

You? Anyone? Ferris?

> and the newspapers can sell papers..

I paid AOL their monthly fee and they delivered the news to my
monitor's-step.

> So for starters why was she sitting on the drain

She's a kid. A drain's unusual. "Hey, lookit that! Oooh, suction.
That's feels weird on my feet."

Or it could have been just bad luck - child's wades across pool,
stumbles, and lands on killer drain.

Or she could have been sitting on the drain (again, it's unusual
compared to the rest of the surface/texture of the wading pool, I
suspect - what kid doesn't want to look into a "cage" or a drain
surface? "what is IN there?") and the pump could have been activated
after she was already (and unfortunately) in place.

Or "other".

> and why was it in a location where a kid would do that?

Aren't drains typically in the center or at the sides of pools?
Regardless, the drains going to be IN the pool (and therefore
accessible to pool patrons) because the drain's/pump's purpose is to
do whatever the hell it does - filter out schtufff, pump water out,
etc.

> Why was it so powerful if it was just kiddie pool?

Does the article say how many gallons are in the kiddie pool? I
imagine its power is necessary to complete its assigned task. Or it
could be overkill. The Tim Taylor school of drains/pumps?

> Why didn't anyone notice

Obviously she didn't scream or wasn't heard as she screamed. A kid
sitting in a wading pool with her head above the surface doesn't raise
too much alarm, right?

> until she got out of the pool?

Because THAT's when she fell the @#$% over.

"Oh, look, little girl with (what the article said they thought was) a
seizure." Now THAT will get your attention.

> Wasn't anyone even watching little 6 year olds playing in the water?

Good question. But, given it's a wading pool - shallow, perceived as
safe and secure - and other children, I suspect, were there as
playmates, I'm guessing that even if the parent had been watching as
the events took place, that nothing would have changed.

> Why didn't she scream or call out.

It happened very fast? Someone stabs you in the eye with a knitting
needle - how much good is a solid scream going to do? The damage is
done.

> surely it must have hurt?

If you read the Chuck 'Guts' P. story then you'd have read the
comments (fact or fiction, I do not know) that intestines being
injured do not offer the same sensation as your exterior skin being
injured. Dunno.

> Once she was free how come nobody noticed what had happened?

Someone did. That much WAS offered in the article. They thought she
was having a seizure. She walked out of the pool (I assume after her
intestines had been ripped out and were no longer acting as a tether)
and then collapsed.

> Surely her bathing suite must have suffered some damage

I guess it didn't work that way. The article, again, iirc, said there
was a two-inch tear in her rectum. Likewise there may have simply been
a relatively small tear in her swimsuit.

> or there would have bee at least a little blood.

Again, I don't know. Guessing (once more) that it was internal
bleeding despite the tear.

What can be certain, however, is that drains are to be avoided. That
safety covers should be in place. That parents may be better off to
buy a tiny pool at Walmart or the local pool store - you know, a
plastic tub with little flowers or a mini slide attached minus any and
all mechanical pumps, etc. and allow your kid to sit in it. A bucket
of ice dumped in there for the supah hot sunny days and a bucket of
watchful parent sitting poolside watching every movement the child
makes. Watch out for bee stings! God, is there no such thing as
safety???!

--
Curt

"Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:k6rv83t0arsn6v5o8rnamc3oose7a3hiok@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:02:01 -0000, Curt <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Shute <S...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >[...]
> >
> >> Is this a new thing? I have been in quite a few pools before and the
> >> drain is in the deepest part. It is hard enough to get that deep and
> >> I can't imagine sitting down there on the drain. Maybe they installed
> >> a drain for large pool like that on a tiny kiddie pool.
> >
> >Well, in the Chuck Palahniuk story 'Guts' the character had a specific
> >reason for sitting on the drain. For the little girl, I don't believe
> >the explained the 'why' in any detail.
> >
> >http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_185085504.html and article
> >titled 'Pool Drain Pulls Small Intestine Out Of Young Girl'
> >
> >Regardless of the why, it's a terrible result. And, iirc, from the
> >related articles there was a $90 million payout to the family of a 5-
> >year-old boy who suffered a similar fate. Perhaps operating the drain
> >only when the pool is closed would be an option. Dunno.
> >
> >Definitely possible to supervise your child with the full knowledge
> >that drains can be hella powerful and obviously life threatening.
>
> They didn't explain anything. The whole story is full of holes. It's
> sole intent to make you upset you so they can get their 90 million and
> the newspapers can sell papers.. So for starters why was she sitting
> on the drain

She didn't know any better.

> and why was it in a location where a kid would do that?

If I'm not mistaken, it was the "wading pool", therefore 18" deep at the
deep part and the drains are positioned at the deepest part to facilitate
drainage.

> Why was it so powerful if it was just kiddie pool?

In order to keep a pool clean the water must be turned over frequently
(usually <1hr if the pool is public). Even though the pump was only 1-1/2
to 2 horsepower if a complete seal is formed it can cause a lot of pressure
build-up. Running it only when the pool is unoccupied isn't an option,
though better design (i.e. more construction costs upfront but less lawsuits
down the road) would help (like having 4 floor drains instead of 2 &/or
doubling the number of skimmers so that the flow rate of the drains is
lower)

> Why didn't anyone
> notice until she got out of the pool?

IIRC, didn't she colapse in the matter of seconds?

> Wasn't anyone even watching
> little 6 year olds playing in the water? Why didn't she scream or
> call out. surely it must have hurt? Once she was free how come nobody
> noticed what had happened?

IIRC the parents were aware as soon as she fell over (seconds after the
incident?). I know my kids tend to have a slight delayed reaction to pain
(i.e. fall down, stand up, walk a couple feet then start crying about the
scraped knee). My youngest is also able to delay the reaction longer if
she's in public (she dislocated her elbow and never cried even when popped
bay in, she had 2 staples put in the back of her head and her only complaint
in front of the doctor was that she was cold - due to the numbing agent)

> Surely her bathing suite must have
> suffered some damage or there would have bee at least a little blood.

I would think so, and I didn't see anything saying there wasn't?

The issue isn't really the parents, it's the pool maintenance people at
fault. All floor drains should have an anti-vortex cover held on by 2
screws. Drain covers really need to be screwed down with 4 screws, even if
it means that maintenance takes an extra 90 seconds to remove the extra
screws.

IIRC, a similar incident happened in '86 (?) in North Carolina and it was
settled out of court for $30Million. I imagine this is gonna cost the
club's insurance agency a large chunk of money.

"Spammers_Should_Be_Shot" <NoSpam@MyEmail.com> wrote in message
news:RJCdnR3Gl8qjzw3bnZ2dnUVZ_t-gnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:k6rv83t0arsn6v5o8rnamc3oose7a3hiok@4ax.com...
> > On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:02:01 -0000, Curt <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Shute <S...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> > >[...]
> > >
> > >> Is this a new thing? I have been in quite a few pools before and the
> > >> drain is in the deepest part. It is hard enough to get that deep and
> > >> I can't imagine sitting down there on the drain. Maybe they
installed
> > >> a drain for large pool like that on a tiny kiddie pool.
> > >
> > >Well, in the Chuck Palahniuk story 'Guts' the character had a specific
> > >reason for sitting on the drain. For the little girl, I don't believe
> > >the explained the 'why' in any detail.
> > >
> > >http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_185085504.html and article
> > >titled 'Pool Drain Pulls Small Intestine Out Of Young Girl'
> > >
> > >Regardless of the why, it's a terrible result. And, iirc, from the
> > >related articles there was a $90 million payout to the family of a 5-
> > >year-old boy who suffered a similar fate. Perhaps operating the drain
> > >only when the pool is closed would be an option. Dunno.
> > >
> > >Definitely possible to supervise your child with the full knowledge
> > >that drains can be hella powerful and obviously life threatening.
> >
> > They didn't explain anything. The whole story is full of holes. It's
> > sole intent to make you upset you so they can get their 90 million and
> > the newspapers can sell papers.. So for starters why was she sitting
> > on the drain
>
> She didn't know any better.
>
> > and why was it in a location where a kid would do that?
>
> If I'm not mistaken, it was the "wading pool", therefore 18" deep at the
> deep part and the drains are positioned at the deepest part to facilitate
> drainage.
>
> > Why was it so powerful if it was just kiddie pool?
>
> In order to keep a pool clean the water must be turned over frequently
> (usually <1hr if the pool is public). Even though the pump was only 1-1/2
> to 2 horsepower if a complete seal is formed it can cause a lot of
pressure
> build-up. Running it only when the pool is unoccupied isn't an option,
> though better design (i.e. more construction costs upfront but less
lawsuits
> down the road) would help (like having 4 floor drains instead of 2 &/or
> doubling the number of skimmers so that the flow rate of the drains is
> lower)
>
> > Why didn't anyone
> > notice until she got out of the pool?
>
> IIRC, didn't she colapse in the matter of seconds?
>
> > Wasn't anyone even watching
> > little 6 year olds playing in the water? Why didn't she scream or
> > call out. surely it must have hurt? Once she was free how come nobody
> > noticed what had happened?
>
> IIRC the parents were aware as soon as she fell over (seconds after the
> incident?). I know my kids tend to have a slight delayed reaction to pain
> (i.e. fall down, stand up, walk a couple feet then start crying about the
> scraped knee). My youngest is also able to delay the reaction longer if
> she's in public (she dislocated her elbow and never cried even when popped
> bay in, she had 2 staples put in the back of her head and her only
complaint
> in front of the doctor was that she was cold - due to the numbing agent)
>
> > Surely her bathing suite must have
> > suffered some damage or there would have bee at least a little blood.
>
> I would think so, and I didn't see anything saying there wasn't?
>
> The issue isn't really the parents, it's the pool maintenance people at
> fault. All floor drains should have an anti-vortex cover held on by 2
> screws. Drain covers really need to be screwed down with 4 screws, even
if
> it means that maintenance takes an extra 90 seconds to remove the extra
> screws.
>
> IIRC, a similar incident happened in '86 (?) in North Carolina and it was
> settled out of court for $30Million. I imagine this is gonna cost the
> club's insurance agency a large chunk of money.
>
>

I'm not familiar with the MPLS Clubs pools but most medium to large
residential (and all commercial) pools have 2 main drains. They're
connected by a header pipe (usually 4"dia.) which then goes into a 2-1/2" or
3" pipe going to the pump. In order for suction to build up like this both
drains would need to be blocked (or the header pipe to be clogged).

In a spa or small wading pool one drain usually suffices for recirculation
needs though it's not an ideal design. Since most people making budgetary
decisions try to cut costs wherever possible a single drain design is
approved more than it should (IMO).

FWIW, main drains are usually 9"dia. (12" is used less frequently) so
completely covering it really wouldn't be that hard, even for a child.
However if 2 drains are used they're normally 4'-6' apart thus making
covering both nearly impossible to do accidentally.

I wonder if the Club has water features (i.e. raindrop/dewdrop, water slide,
geysers, etc.) in their wading pool? Depending upon how everything is piped
that could effect the gallons per minute that the drain was moving.

Spammers_Should_Be_Shot wrote:
[...]


> In order to keep a pool clean the water must be turned over frequently
> (usually <1hr if the pool is public).

Oh.

> Even though the pump was only 1-1/2
> to 2 horsepower if a complete seal is formed it can cause a lot of pressure
> build-up. Running it only when the pool is unoccupied isn't an option,

Oh.

I was curious about that. Thanks.

> though better design (i.e. more construction costs upfront but less lawsuits
> down the road) would help (like having 4 floor drains instead of 2 &/or
> doubling the number of skimmers so that the flow rate of the drains is
> lower)

I think some of that might've been mentioned in the one news video
attached to one link I found.

[...]

> IIRC, didn't she colapse in the matter of seconds?

Yes. They thought she was having a seizure. And, iirc, the parents
found out from the doctors about her intestines after they'd gotten to
the hospital. That is, there was apparently no string of intestines
leading from the poor girl. The pool people found the intestine in the
drain afterwards.

[...]

> IIRC the parents were aware as soon as she fell over (seconds after the
> incident?). I know my kids tend to have a slight delayed reaction to pain
> (i.e. fall down, stand up, walk a couple feet then start crying about the
> scraped knee). My youngest is also able to delay the reaction longer if
> she's in public (she dislocated her elbow and never cried even when popped
> bay in, she had 2 staples put in the back of her head and her only complaint
> in front of the doctor was that she was cold - due to the numbing agent)

I've seen similar happen time and time again - a child will fall and
then only *after* noticing that you saw them fall, will begin to cry.
I always thought it was the fact that they realized they'd been
observed that they'd cry, but perhaps it's the "slight delayed
reaction to pain" as you tell it.

[...]

> The issue isn't really the parents,

Agreed. They were ignorant or unaware of the potential danger. No
parent can be expected to keep their children locked in a box or a
safe room. However, having read or seen that news report, I'd damn
well verify the drain covers were in place securely as well as
directing my children to stay the hell off the thing anyway.

No, I don't have my own children, but I have supervised children at
the pool. That tragedy would be on my mind and I'd certainly act
accordingly to ensure their safety.

> it's the pool maintenance people at
> fault. All floor drains should have an anti-vortex cover held on by 2
> screws. Drain covers really need to be screwed down with 4 screws, even if
> it means that maintenance takes an extra 90 seconds to remove the extra
> screws.

It's incredibly sad. And, yeah, negligent. I'm curious who did the
planned maintenance. Or was it vandals who are responsible?
Regardless, it would almost be fitting for the person responsible to
be planted on the drain and then have the think set to full-speed or
suction. Certainly, I don't believe there was malice involved, but
that doesn't help the child.

> IIRC, a similar incident happened in '86 (?) in North Carolina and it was
> settled out of court for $30Million. I imagine this is gonna cost the
> club's insurance agency a large chunk of money.

No doubt.

(Googles)

* "Several states have passed pool-safety laws after children drowned
or were disemboweled by drain suction. North Carolina, for instance,
requires pools to have dual drains to diffuse the force of the suction
and prevent children from being trapped."

* "On June 16, 1991, a 3-year-old girl playing in a public wading pool
sat on the pool's uncapped suction drain. The child appeared to be
stuck on the drain, and the pool attendant quickly turned off the
pool's suction pump. As a consequence of sitting on the drain, the
child sustained severe internal injuries requiring surgical repair.
This report summarizes the investigation of this incident by the North
Carolina Department of Environment, Health, and Natural Resources
(DEHNR) and describes safety measures to prevent injuries among
children caused by pool suction drains.

PMID: 1579126 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"

* "Transanal suction from a swimming pool drain can result in
intestinal evisceration. We report the eighth such case, followed by a
literature review, description of the mechanism, and management
guidelines. This bizarre injury, which has devastating consequences
for the children involved, is completely preventable by installation
of semi-permanent, anti-vortex grates."

* "Her father, Scott Taylor, told WCCO-TV that the suction caused a 2-
inch tear in Abigail's rectum and pulled out much of her small
intestine. Doctors had to remove the part of her intestines that
remained, the family's lawyer, Bob Bennett, said.

While Abigail remained in intensive care at Children's Hospital, she
appeared to be doing better, Bennett said. Her family has requested
that all information be released through Bennett, the hospital said.

Abigail was to undergo surgery on Friday to have a port implanted
through which she'll be fed, Bennett said."

--
Curt

On Sat, 7 Jul 2007 22:20:19 -0600, "Spammers_Should_Be_Shot"
<NoSpam@MyEmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Spammers_Should_Be_Shot" <NoSpam@MyEmail.com> wrote in message
>news:RJCdnR3Gl8qjzw3bnZ2dnUVZ_t-gnZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Shute" <Shute@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:k6rv83t0arsn6v5o8rnamc3oose7a3hiok@4ax.com...
>> > On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 17:02:01 -0000, Curt <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >Shute <S...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> > >[...]
>> > >
>> > >> Is this a new thing? I have been in quite a few pools before and the
>> > >> drain is in the deepest part. It is hard enough to get that deep and
>> > >> I can't imagine sitting down there on the drain. Maybe they
>installed
>> > >> a drain for large pool like that on a tiny kiddie pool.
>> > >
>> > >Well, in the Chuck Palahniuk story 'Guts' the character had a specific
>> > >reason for sitting on the drain. For the little girl, I don't believe
>> > >the explained the 'why' in any detail.
>> > >
>> > >http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_185085504.html and article
>> > >titled 'Pool Drain Pulls Small Intestine Out Of Young Girl'
>> > >
>> > >Regardless of the why, it's a terrible result. And, iirc, from the
>> > >related articles there was a $90 million payout to the family of a 5-
>> > >year-old boy who suffered a similar fate. Perhaps operating the drain
>> > >only when the pool is closed would be an option. Dunno.
>> > >
>> > >Definitely possible to supervise your child with the full knowledge
>> > >that drains can be hella powerful and obviously life threatening.
>> >
>> > They didn't explain anything. The whole story is full of holes. It's
>> > sole intent to make you upset you so they can get their 90 million and
>> > the newspapers can sell papers.. So for starters why was she sitting
>> > on the drain
>>
>> She didn't know any better.
>>
>> > and why was it in a location where a kid would do that?
>>
>> If I'm not mistaken, it was the "wading pool", therefore 18" deep at the
>> deep part and the drains are positioned at the deepest part to facilitate
>> drainage.
>>
>> > Why was it so powerful if it was just kiddie pool?
>>
>> In order to keep a pool clean the water must be turned over frequently
>> (usually <1hr if the pool is public). Even though the pump was only 1-1/2
>> to 2 horsepower if a complete seal is formed it can cause a lot of
>pressure
>> build-up. Running it only when the pool is unoccupied isn't an option,
>> though better design (i.e. more construction costs upfront but less
>lawsuits
>> down the road) would help (like having 4 floor drains instead of 2 &/or
>> doubling the number of skimmers so that the flow rate of the drains is
>> lower)
>>
>> > Why didn't anyone
>> > notice until she got out of the pool?
>>
>> IIRC, didn't she colapse in the matter of seconds?
>>
>> > Wasn't anyone even watching
>> > little 6 year olds playing in the water? Why didn't she scream or
>> > call out. surely it must have hurt? Once she was free how come nobody
>> > noticed what had happened?
>>
>> IIRC the parents were aware as soon as she fell over (seconds after the
>> incident?). I know my kids tend to have a slight delayed reaction to pain
>> (i.e. fall down, stand up, walk a couple feet then start crying about the
>> scraped knee). My youngest is also able to delay the reaction longer if
>> she's in public (she dislocated her elbow and never cried even when popped
>> bay in, she had 2 staples put in the back of her head and her only
>complaint
>> in front of the doctor was that she was cold - due to the numbing agent)
>>
>> > Surely her bathing suite must have
>> > suffered some damage or there would have bee at least a little blood.
>>
>> I would think so, and I didn't see anything saying there wasn't?
>>
>> The issue isn't really the parents, it's the pool maintenance people at
>> fault. All floor drains should have an anti-vortex cover held on by 2
>> screws. Drain covers really need to be screwed down with 4 screws, even
>if
>> it means that maintenance takes an extra 90 seconds to remove the extra
>> screws.
>>
>> IIRC, a similar incident happened in '86 (?) in North Carolina and it was
>> settled out of court for $30Million. I imagine this is gonna cost the
>> club's insurance agency a large chunk of money.
>>
>>
>
>I'm not familiar with the MPLS Clubs pools but most medium to large
>residential (and all commercial) pools have 2 main drains. They're
>connected by a header pipe (usually 4"dia.) which then goes into a 2-1/2" or
>3" pipe going to the pump. In order for suction to build up like this both
>drains would need to be blocked (or the header pipe to be clogged).
>
>In a spa or small wading pool one drain usually suffices for recirculation
>needs though it's not an ideal design. Since most people making budgetary
>decisions try to cut costs wherever possible a single drain design is
>approved more than it should (IMO).
>
>FWIW, main drains are usually 9"dia. (12" is used less frequently) so
>completely covering it really wouldn't be that hard, even for a child.
>However if 2 drains are used they're normally 4'-6' apart thus making
>covering both nearly impossible to do accidentally.
>
>I wonder if the Club has water features (i.e. raindrop/dewdrop, water slide,
>geysers, etc.) in their wading pool? Depending upon how everything is piped
>that could effect the gallons per minute that the drain was moving.

Well that defiantly draws a clearer picture. I hadn't thought about
how once the drain was clogged the pressure would go up. If they are
not going to have two drains they should at least have an auto
shutoff. Imagine if elevators didn't have pressure sensors to
prevent someone getting crushed by the doors. Unfortunately they
don't come up with stuff like that until enough people get injured.

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 04:03:39 -0000, Curt <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote:

>d wells wrote:
>> Curt wrote:
>[...]
>
>re http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Palahniuk
>[...]
>
>> > Note to d wells: There's a caption on that Wiki page, too, that
>> > mentions the author's "Roses and Shit Tour 2006". Roses are coming up
>> > everywhere!
>>
>> You missed a chance to do your Ethel Merman:
>>
>> Every-thing's coming up ro-ses.
>
>[...]
>
>Ethel Merman, eh? Haven't thought of her in quite some time.
>
>(Googles)
>
>She was married to Ernest Borgnine.
>
>For 32 days.

It probably felt like a lifetime.


"Syylllllvester!!!"

"I'm coming to get you, Mama!!!"

Lucas Buck wrote:
I scribbled:
[...]

> >She was married to Ernest Borgnine.
>
> >For 32 days.
>
> It probably felt like a lifetime.
>
> "Syylllllvester!!!"
>
> "I'm coming to get you, Mama!!!"

I'm drawing a blank.

Borgnine won an Oscar and more for 'Marty' back in 1955.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048356/awards

I did not know that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Borgnine

He's frigging 90. And he's been married five times (IF you count the
32-day deal). Plus - and I did not know this - according to the Wiki
entry, his first cousin was Milton Berle.

--
Curt

On Fri, 6 Jul 2007, Prisoner at War wrote:

> On Jul 6, 5:47 am, Tom Anderson <t...@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Jul 2007, Curt wrote:
>>
>>> The worst part of the article: "Abigail will have to be fed
>>> intravenously for the rest of her life and will have to have a
>>> colostomy bag."
>>
>> Sounds fucking awful, i have to say. And this is not a safety hazard how?
>>
>> Anyway, Chuck Palahniuk wrote a short story about this, funnily enough:
>
> I'm absolutely puzzled at this author's popularity. Sounds like Stephen
> King Lite for those with literary affectations.

Agreed. The movie of Fight Club is wicked boss, though.

tom

--
FREQUENT VIOLENT BLOODY

On Jul 5, 7:06 pm, Curt <curtja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You just, well, I don't think this kind of thing happens. Absurd. Did
> anyone see the story about the amusement park ride that took the feet
> off a child? Chain snapped and whizzz, like some Final Destination
> horror film.
>
> Now here's another tale of terror. Protect your children. I mean, who
> would think something like this could happen?
>
> The worst part of the article: "Abigail will have to be fed
> intravenously for the rest of her life and will have to have a
> colostomy bag."
>
> Hold that thought, actually, the following is the worst part: "an
> official at the golf club expressed sympathy for the family and said
> he didn't think anything was wrong with the pool but referred
> questions to the club's attorney, who declined to comment."
>
> WHAAAAA??? Nothing wrong with the pool? Hey, pal, next time just stfu
> and walk away from the reporter, okay?
>
> Pool Drain Pulls Small Intestine Out Of Young Girl
> Image
>
> Heather Brown
> Reporting
>
> (WCCO) Minneapolis A 6-year-old Edina, Minn. girl has been
> hospitalized after a horrific accident at a swimming pool.
>
> Abigail Taylor was severely injured Friday when she sat over an open
> drain hole in a wading pool at the Minneapolis Golf Club.
>
> Now Abigail's father has a warning to other families: Pool and hot tub
> drain accidents are a hidden danger that many of us don't understand.
>
> Abigail has big brown eyes, a dazzling smile and at just 6 years old
> she has already competed in local swim meets.
>
> "She loves to swim," said her father Scott Taylor.
>
> Her love of swimming is why her family didn't think twice when she
> played at a kiddie pool at the family's golf club on Friday night.
>
> Taylor said as Abigail was getting out of the pool, she fell.
>
> "She more or less blacked out, she passed out, fell face-first onto
> the pool decking," he said. The family thought it was a seizure.
>
> An ambulance rushed her to Children's Hospital in Minneapolis. Several
> hours later a surgeon said Abigail was lucky to be alive.
>
> "The suction had caused a two-inch tear in her rectum and had
> basically disemboweled her by pulling out her small intestines, almost
> all of it," said Taylor.
>
> Her father said a search of the pool filter turned up Abigail's
> intestine. He said Abigail was seriously wounded because the cover of
> the drain had been removed.
>
> In most public pools the drain cover is screwed in and cannot be
> pulled off. According to the Consumer Product Safety Commission, the
> pressure on some pool drains can be as strong as 300 pounds per square
> inch.
>
> "It never even crosses anybody's mind that potential at the bottom of
> that pool is enough force to literally disembowel a child, an adult,"
> said Taylor.
>
> Abigail will have to be fed intravenously for the rest of her life and
> will have to have a colostomy bag.
>
> "We view it as a miracle that she's still with us," her father said.
>
> She is improving. Wednesday morning she stunned her family by asking a
> question.
>
> "She said, 'Am I going to be on the news?' She said, 'Why do you ask?'
> She said, 'Because I want to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone
> else,'" recalled Taylor.
>
> Since 1990, 170 people, mostly children, have been caught in drains
> and 27 of them have died. Legislation is pending that would require
> pools and hot tubs to have multiple drains to ease the suction.
>
> Some pools have a safety vacuum cutoff which shuts down if someone is
> trapped. New drain covers which cost less than $50 can also help.
>
> According to the Associated Press, an official at the golf club
> expressed sympathy for the family and said he didn't think anything
> was wrong with the pool, but referred questions to the club's
> attorney, who declined to comment. /copy and paste fromhttp://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_185085504.html
>
> --

Representing disemboweled kids caused by pool drains is how John
Edwards make his gazillions

http://news.findlaw.com/newsmakers/john.edwards.html

it was his specialty in the 90's, seems like it's still a good
specialty 10 years later, should be an elective course in law school

bungalow_st...@yahoo wrote:
[...]

> Representing disemboweled kids caused by pool drains is how John
> Edwards make his gazillions
>
> http://news.findlaw.com/newsmakers/john.edwards.html
>
> it was his specialty in the 90's, seems like it's still a good
> specialty 10 years later, should be an elective course in law school

Geez. I wonder if he used any of his (what's that money called,
percentage?) fee to promote pool safety. (

"Despite 12 prior suits with similar claims, manufacturer continued to
make and sell drain covers lacking warnings."

Yeesh, THERE's a responsible manufacturer.

And $2.3 million for "38-year-old female committed suicide after
psychiatrist discontinued suicide watch."

What was the doc supposed to do, sit on her? Where was her family?

Edwards apparently likes that dollar amount, too. He got $2.3 million
for "Worker fractured both ankles, jaw, and skull after fall from 24-
foot scaffold in defendant's plywood plant."

So, are you SURE this scaffold is safe? Honest? How'd the guy not
break at least one wrist? Ankles, check. I guess it happened too quick
to put an arm out.

Fwiw, I broke a fall with, uh, my face in 3rd grade. Slipped off a
jungle gym. Nice. I did NOT get $2.3 million.

WHERE'S JOHN EDWARDS WHEN YOU NEED HIM??!!!

(In his defense, he woulda been about 18 at the time.)

--
Curt

On Jul 9, 5:44 pm, Curt <curtja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> bungalow_st...@yahoo wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > Representing disemboweled kids caused by pool drains is how John
> > Edwards make his gazillions
>
> >http://news.findlaw.com/newsmakers/john.edwards.html
>
> > it was his specialty in the 90's, seems like it's still a good
> > specialty 10 years later, should be an elective course in law school
>
> Geez. I wonder if he used any of his (what's that money called,
> percentage?) fee to promote pool safety. (
>
> "Despite 12 prior suits with similar claims, manufacturer continued to
> make and sell drain covers lacking warnings."
>
> Yeesh, THERE's a responsible manufacturer.

I think it's a admittance of guilt thing, if they put the warning on
they basically admit their product is unsafe, and I suspect they would
go bankrupt paying all the claims. With no admittance of guilt each
party has to sue them one by one, which is difficult, great system eh?
Kinda damned if they do, damned if they don't.

bungalow_st...@yahoo wrote:

re "Despite 12 prior suits with similar claims, manufacturer continued
to make and sell drain covers lacking warnings."

> I think it's a admittance of guilt thing, if they put the warning on
> they basically admit their product is unsafe, and I suspect they would
> go bankrupt paying all the claims. With no admittance of guilt each
> party has to sue them one by one, which is difficult, great system eh?
> Kinda damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Geez. You're right. I hadn't thought of that. That's evil.

(thinks back to days of watching 'The Practice')

Precedent? Dunno.

But it's obviously heinous.

--
Curt, climbing back on the turnip truck

On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 06:10:36 -0700, Curt <curtjames@gmail.com> wrote:

>Lucas Buck wrote:
>I scribbled:
>[...]
>
>> >She was married to Ernest Borgnine.
>>
>> >For 32 days.
>>
>> It probably felt like a lifetime.
>>
>> "Syylllllvester!!!"
>>
>> "I'm coming to get you, Mama!!!"
>
>I'm drawing a blank.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057193/combined

<bungalow_steve@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1184020967.638544.53160@c77g2000hse.googlegro ups.com...
> On Jul 9, 5:44 pm, Curt <curtja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > bungalow_st...@yahoo wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > Representing disemboweled kids caused by pool drains is how John
> > > Edwards make his gazillions
> >
> > >http://news.findlaw.com/newsmakers/john.edwards.html
> >
> > > it was his specialty in the 90's, seems like it's still a good
> > > specialty 10 years later, should be an elective course in law school
> >
> > Geez. I wonder if he used any of his (what's that money called,
> > percentage?) fee to promote pool safety. (
> >
> > "Despite 12 prior suits with similar claims, manufacturer continued to
> > make and sell drain covers lacking warnings."
> >
> > Yeesh, THERE's a responsible manufacturer.
>
> I think it's a admittance of guilt thing, if they put the warning on
> they basically admit their product is unsafe, and I suspect they would
> go bankrupt paying all the claims. With no admittance of guilt each
> party has to sue them one by one, which is difficult, great system eh?
> Kinda damned if they do, damned if they don't.
>
>

So let me get this straight.....
There should be a warning printed on drain covers, then all persons entering
said pool should swim down to the bottom and put their face real close to it
so they can read the warning? Won't it also require a pool attendant to
tell all swimmers that upon entering the pool they are required to go read
the warning or they have to leave?

I think a better solution is to just use a safer design.

Lucas Buck offered
[...]

> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057193/combined

in response to my drawing a blank

Oh.

Hey, thanks, Buck.

I'll have to rent